All these toothless poms will have egg on their face when black caviar beats frankel over a mile in the queen anne, fuck i hope moody chooses runs in that.
@olimillz9 get off the drugs mate....Black Caviar is a once in a lifetime sprinter from the country that supplies the majority of the world's best sprinters !!! Hay List is the 2nd best. The likes of Rocket Man, Silent Witness, Sacred Kingdom etc were all bred in Aust. Ever heard of Choisir, Scenic Blast, Miss Andretti, Takeover Target, Starspangledbanner ? They all won in England in the past 10 years and only Miss Andretti was considered our best. Black Caviar would brain that lot !
WOW!! with 400 left i was like there is no way in, hang on a sec is she running down HAYLIST, no that's impossible oh wait she passed him, well she won't him by much oh wait!! hahaha
THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THESE SPRINTERS.......
QUARTERHORSES ARE FASTER......I like to see these overrated sprinters sprint after they run 9 furlongs.....and that includes another overhyped overrated FRANKEL
Good joke, quarter horses are faster over 400m, I believe they have even been stretched out to near 800m, but they end up dying after that distance. A thoroughbred would beat and quarter horse over 800+
It is not only UK based Timeform which rate BC below Frankel ; the International Classifications - officially the world rankings - and voted for by the IFHA ( 59 member countries ), also has Frankel well clear. The ratings are based on the overall form of each horse - concentrating mainly on the grade of race each horse wins and the quality of opposition they beat. Times and margins won by meaning nothing unless the defeated horses are of a high standard. Her rating may yet rise in 2012.
@ThefightingCelt Yeah I know, it is annoying though when we have a horse here who is winning in 2nd gear, has now scared off decent opposition, and has therefore plateaued regarding Timeform. She has plenty left in the tank, the question is how much? This is why I pray for a miracle that she and Frankel could meet one day on the track. I have little doubt the result would be a lift in her ratings.
@schardy80 Her rating would only increase if and when she met and defeated higher rated opponents. Let's be clear on one thing; the only time she will meet Frankel ( as Peter Moody said himself ) is in the breeding shed. Frankel's trainer has already mapped out his races for his 4 year old career. Dropping back in distance is highly unlikely. Black Caviar's best chance of increasing her overallrating will be in the 5 f King's Stand Stakes and probably the 6f Diamond Jubilee Stakes at Royal Ascot
@ThefightingCelt I know she won't meet him on the track thats why i said I was praying for a miracle. If that miracle came to be, and she went down to Frankel in a classic duel down to the wire then surely her rating would lift? Or would his fall? Obviously if she beat him then things would change dramatically.
@ThefightingCelt we are yet to see her show any signs of "burning out" whether she has been setting the pace or sitting off the pace. just look at her sectionals. I wish i could say the same for Frankel in his 9 starts, but you just need to look at the st james palace. definitely didn't see any evidence of him "maintaining a blistering gallop" there. beating spastics by 3/4 of a length doesnt make you a champion.
@TheFightingCelt we are yet to see her show any signs of "burning out" whether she has been setting the pace or sitting off the pace. just look at her sectionals. I wish i could say the same for Frankel in his 9 starts, but you just need to look at the st james palace. definitely didn't see any evidence of him "maintaining a blistering gallop" there. beating spastics by 3/4 of a length doesnt make you a champion.
@bbaacckkeerrss The St. James Palace Stakes was, by comment consent, not Tom Queally's finest hour. He disobeyed his trainer's instructions to hold onto him for as long as possible before unleahing his finishing kick. They wanted to try and settle him after his runaway 2,000 GNS win, as Sir Henry Cecil said he was still a big baby and would get stronger as the season progressed. He did so, and went onto beat Europe's finest milers. The SJP was the one and only race where he has idled in front.
Taking nothing away from Black Caviar in this race, but it is quite obvious that Hay List has set off much too fast. He hasn't got the stamina to see it through. Black Caviar showed great determination to close Hay List down, but Hay List is clearly tiring as they approach the final furlong.
@ThefightingCelt Honestly I would love to see how Queally would handle Frankel in the hypothetical match race. If I was on Frankel I would be going hard and trying to gas her, hoping that she would be cooked. I cannot conceive of any horse allowing Black Caviar to canter up on the rump, and then hope to burn her off in the final 2f. She has biblically good turn of foot. Frankel would have to test her endurance because even he doesn't have the pure speed to beat her in a pure sprint for home IMO
Black Caviar would need an oxygen mask and a turbo booster rammed up her backside in order to get within even two lengths of Frankel ( " the monster" ). He would destroy her at a mile. She would be freely available at 5/2 or over to beat him in a two horse race. Frankel would be odds on favourite. He would make the running with the Aussie mare stalking him, cantering just behind. Tom Queally would then let out an inch of rein and that giant Frankel stride would leave Black Caviar for dead.
@ThefightingCelt Her backside is equipped with a natural turbo booster haha. Sure, she would need to dig deep and lift to another level to beat Frankel.....but she is a cut above Canford Cliffs, Dream Ahead, Excelebration etc.....he would know he was in a race don't worry about that. Certainly a poor Queally ride would be fatal against BC.
@schardy80 See, I do not wish to be patronizing in any way, but you are not comparing like with like. A mile is very different to a six furlong sprint. Most failed milers either drop back in distance ( eg Dream ahead ) or they are upped in distance. The three colts you mentioned all tried the same cat and mouse tactics with Frankel - in 7f races as well as mile races - and all met the same fate. Frankel's ability to maintain a blistering gallop would eventually burn Black Caviar's jets out.
@ThefightingCelt I am making the assumption that she will make the transition to miler next prep, so yes for now the comparison isn't like for like. You aren't being patronising, you and many of your European mates don't give her a snowballs chance of beating him. That is your opinion, and yes the guys at Timeform are on your side, so fair enough then. She has hit the glass ceiling here in Australia, she cannot lift her rating as she has basically cannibalised her competition here and the
@schardy80 If it is any consolation to Black Caviar and you, I am certainly not one of those of subscribe to the theory that Frankel would beat Black Caviar in a sprint race, in this case, over 1200 m ( 6f ). He is not a sprinter and his esteemed trainer, Sir Henry Cecil, has said as much. Black Caviar, as a true sprinter, has pace to burn, and therein ( as any racing aficiando will tell you ) lies the doubt about her being able to sustain that kind of speed over a fast run mile against Frankel.
No argument that there has to be some doubt about her translating her dominance at sprinting to the mile. However, she relaxes so well and has such supreme cruising speed that I would be stunned if she didn't excel at 7f and beyond. Take it for what its worth, but Peter Moody believes she will be even better over further. The issue to my mind is whether she would be strong enough at a mile to challenge Frankel. What I am confident of is that should they ever meet, the revised Timeform ratings
@schardy80 i highly doubt moody thinks she will be even better over further distance he might say that but i doubt it because if thats the case why hasnt he moved her up in distance.its not like we are talking about a 3yr old filly here she is gonna be 6 you dont wait that long if you are that confident in a horse at longer distances.
@ThefightingCelt would bridge the gap between the two animals. Frankel is a freak, one of the best ever, but so is she. No way known would Frankel destroy BC. Yet that is what the ratings suggest at the moment. It is not hard to see that Australia is not where the power base of Timeform resides. It is, to me anyway, unfathomable that a horse that dominant, could be so far adrift. She has won 16 top races with ridiculous ease, mostly in brilliant times. How can you run 1.07 with 58kg that easily?
@ThefightingCelt only possible way of improving her rating, fully extending her, has never been in the trainer or jockeys plans. Racing her against the clock, running sub 1.06 for 6f, winning by 15 lengths....things she appears to have the potential to do, would lift her rating but theres no extra prizemoney for that. The difference in ratings between her and Frankel is misleading. I only wish we could see how misleading on the track one day. Have to settle for butchering the Kings Stand etc
@ThefightingCelt Plus Moody thinks she will improve with the extra distance, and if she does then only a fool would dismiss her as a serious threat to Frankel. They won't meet and I hate that reality.
@ThefightingCelt If they do meet-I hope youre right about Frankel being odds on favorite.That means BC would be about 6/4?My God,I hope youre right.Ill be able to retire 10 years earlier than I expected!
@scrappy5011 They won't meet, unless Peter Moody decides to come over to Britain earleir than planned, as Frankel's first race ( it has been confirmed ) will be the 1 mile Locking Stakes at Newbury for 4 year olds and upwards. After that, Frankel will be aimed at the top mile and a quarter races. I have no doubt at all that over 7 furlongs or a mile, Frankel would beat Black Caviar without too much trouble.
@ThefightingCelt lol lol at1000m, 1200m & 1400m Frankel would get sick of seeing Black Caviar's massive rump. At 1600m and beyond you would think Frankel would be advantaged. In saying that Black Caviar is untried over 1600m and she may be just as dominant. If there was ever to be a match race it should be over 1400m (7 furlongs), a distance both horses have won at & it should be in Dubai on turf. Now that would be a race for the ages. I'd smash Black Caviar hard !
@leedelaney70 You'd lose all your monopoly money if you did. Black Caviar is very good, but she has been made to look even better by some of those one paced nags she races against. What odds was she on her last two starts ? That's right, 1/25 and 1/20. That tells me everything I need to know about the quality of opposition she has been facing. She will know she has been in a race should Peter Moody have the balls to take her to Dubai and then royal Ascot to face better horses.
@ThefightingCelt You're kidding right. Did you see that one paced nag Alverta ? She actually is a one paced nag compared to Black Caviar , but she was still good enough to run 3rd in YOUR July Cup. Get up off the dildo you're sitting on mate , its clouding your thinking and its bad for your health.
@MrJakobBrown Well,Jakob Brown,I have been around the horse racing scene for more years than I care to remember and one thing that I have learned over the years about so called great horses is this:it matters not a jot how many races or consecutive races they win, or how easily they accomplish those wins - the determining factor in gauging that greatness is the overall quality of horses that they defeated. Hay List apart, I can't think of another "victim" who can be rated even close to her.
@MrJakobBrown Black Caviar would beat Alverta by 15 lengths hard held. They just don't get it !! Aussie sprinters go over there and kick their brains in time and time again and Black Caviar is the best of the best and these fools want to doubt her......I just hope they lay her big time as I'll be ready and waiting
@leedelaney70 I'll be setting sail in my little convict dingy just to get some of those juicy odds. Might even put them out of business. 10 each way of course.
@ThefightingCelt She is not going to face better horses anywhere. It's well known Australia has the greatest depth of sprinters. So even the horses she is beating easily such as Hay List, Star Witness etc would be winning in Dubai/England etc She's started those prices as she is clearly the worlds best sprinter and could even be the best sprinter EVER !! What price do you expect her to be @ Ascot ? She'll be 1/5 or 1/10 at best !!
@leedelaney70 I still maintain that Peter Moody and BC's owners are taking the easier route with her in order to preserve her 100% record. She has already beaten Hay List senseless and unless that horse has improved by 2 stones, then she will beat him easily again. No one is arguing against BC being the best sprinter on the planet. My argument is that she will be tested far more than ever at Royal Ascot, where, incidentally, a leading UK bookmaker has offered odds of 4/5 her winning a race there
@ThefightingCelt Hay List is the second best sprinter in the world by the way. Hay List would have destroyed Takeover Target and Choisir and the other B grade Aussie horses that have had success in England.
@314159192829 Well Mr Numbers, when Choisir and Takeover Target won at Royal Ascot, the UK sprinters were a very average bunch indeed. Hay List is a good horse but neither he nor the other two aforementiond Aussie sprinters would have troubled the brilliant Dayjur - a British trained sprinter who would have made even Black Caviar pull out all the stops.
@ThefightingCelt You must admit. The form around her has stacked up pretty well. Did you catch Atomic Force in New Zealand ? Always been a horse who doesn't run the strongest 6f but he raced well over there. Wouldn't get within 10 lengths of BC on a good day. Star Witness and Alverta as i'm sure you know , also weren't disgraced overseas. I'm glad that you aren't blind enough to see that she's clearly the best sprinter anywhere in the world right now , maybe even better then Dayjur. Yep.
@314159192829 haha you're a muppet mate, black caviar is a freak. takeover target was a champion. any horse with multiple group 1 wins that include Salinger Stakes (G1) (2004) Lightning Stakes (G1) (2006) Newmarket Handicap (G1) (2006)
King's Stand Stakes (G2) (2006)
Sprinters Stakes (G1) (2006)
Doomben 10,000 (G1) (2007)
KrisFlyer International Sprint (G1) (2008)
T J Smith Stakes (G1) (2009))
The Goodwood (G1) (2009) and a (over) 50% winning ratio i'd own any fucking day of the week.
@leedelaney70 Again, I have to take issue. Yes, she is the best sprinter in the world - and I do stress, sprinter ! The main reason she starts at such prohibitive odds is due her weak opposition.
@ASupremeOwl i just hope they give me something better than odds on for Black Caviar when she steps up to the mile to take on Frankel. absolutely unadulterated stealing money. I should wear a balaklava when i go and put that bet on. It's just a shame Australian horses always need to travel to Europe to make a mockery of their non-distance races. Look at Scene Blast and Star Witness, both ran 1st and 2nd in Englands premier sprinting race. they'd be lucky to win a class one at Toowoomba.
Well she won the Patinack easily. Its her stride that is different -she takes 9 to the furlong versus 11 for most horses. The thing I find remarkable is that she is a big mare (she is even big foe a horse) but she gets up to speed very quickly. That back end is all power.
@Emilybacon91 Nor have they travelled to where she is unlike horses like Dunedin who came here and one the Melbourne Cup. The ratings for horses are done world wide and she is currently second on that list and the highest ranked sprinter. She does have Sepoy chasing her heals too but that should change on after the Patinach on Saturday. She is so good that others here won't race against her. it makes no sense to me when second prize is 180K
Black Caviar will be sticking to her cosy 6f to preserve her record. I'll put money on that, Whilst Frankel will be establishing himself as one of racing's legends even though he is one now... Black Caviar is good, But give it a rest with this 'Best in the world' bollocks. The ratings speak for themself...
Black Caviar racing in a field of 4 against the same horses with even horses having to be moved away from her to avoid interference. Yawn Yawn Yawn. I can't wait for her to have a real test, Shes clearly racing inferior animals week in week out. Australia's answer to Zenyatta. How Black Caviar is even mentioned in the same breath as Frankel is embarrasing. Shes never even raced over the 6f. Frankel as done 7f, 8f and next year he will be tackling 10f...
@themightyeythain WTF?? no shit ey thats some seriously high bank interest. the exacta was $6.10 and hay list was $2.50 a place now thats just fuckin ridiculous
Oh perleassee enough of the my horse is better than your horse rubbish and grow up! Accept it yes Black Caviar may be the best sprinter in Australia but thats it, she's the best in Australia, but also accept that she is not the worlds best sprinter as she hasnt taken on the world, she hasn't travelled to Europe (yet) or the US so therefore in my opinion she hasnt earn't the right to be called the worlds best Sprinter... yet!
@Emilybacon91 Timeform ratings would be just a tad more accurate then yourself. Black Caviar is easily the best sprinter in the world , you're blind , deaf and stupid if you can't see that. The argument is whether she is the best horse in the world , which is debatable. She'll race overseas shortly and show the whole world how great she truely is.
@MrJakobBrown I really couldn't give a fig what Timeform ratings say. She isnt the worlds best sprinter as she has never left Australia and taken on the world so how can you say that apart from what Timeform says? And don't be so flipping rude and learn some manners! I can read, hear and i'm not stupid i just have my own opinion thank you very much but be a sad act and insult me if thats all you can do..
@Emilybacon91 Geez women are so temperamental. It wasn't directed to just you , it was directed at everyone who can't see how great Black Caviar is. I have better things to do then pick on you miss. Now now . you go take two advil and have a glass of water and a little lay down.
Well done and pretty easy, but the jockey was very complacent. Had Hay List quickened then BC might have struggled. I know people will rubbish my comment, but you can't count on anything. You never know what could happen. Also, BC has the potential to get boxed in - and I wouldn't go past collusion. A good ride, but Hay List showed the possible way to beat her: steal a potential winning break. From a champion pov she is just phenomenal.
I still think takeover target was the best sprinter in the world. G1's in all Australian states not to mention a handful of wins when he took on the world internationally
@spukkar He was a mighty warrior, that's for sure. Big heart, as game as they come. Yes, and he was official world champion. His win in Japan was probably his best, but we are probably never going to see a horse emulate his performance of winning in all major Australian states (except WA?) and in the UK, Japan and Singapore. Good thing he never made a comeback with her around, though. We have never seen one better, with the possible excpetion of Vain and Manikato.
BC is the best sprinter in the world without doubt. We have great racing carnivals in Australia where any horse is welcome. Why does BC need to go OS to prove her greatness? Come take her on here if you dare!
@curtains73 BC has to leave Australia to prove her worth because, lets face it, the best horses, races, and race courses in the world are in Ireland and the UK. I'm not trying to take a stab by the way, its the truth... Ask any top class jockey and they would tell you the same thing. BC seems to be an unbelievable horse, and I dont doubt that she would trounce many Irish and British horses... Would she beat Frankel though? Personally I dont think so, but It would be won incredible spectacle!
@omalley8600 Correct. It is no insult to Aus racing to point out that the UK/France?Ireland scene is where the prestige is. BC may well be good enough to come to Europe, win the Golden Jubilee and July Cup and underline her claims but until she does she is a good horse winning in a relativebackwater. As I say absolutely no insuolt intended. Just telling it straight. BTW I hope she does prove it.
In fairness barring breeding reasons there's no point her coming over to the UK.
She could probably give our bunch a stone and a half and a lengths beating. Our group are so wonderfully inconsistant it's ridiculous. I don't have figures but I would love to see Timeforms variance in ratings of our horses in top sprints. Reckon most them probably have a 2 stone variance between there best and worst performances of the year.
Must say Moonlight Cloud looked V good Sunday, until the next run.
Dream ahead prefairs soft ground aswell and still won well . Dont get me wrong i think black caviar is a really good horse all im saying is that she is over rated for what she has won . She is no way the best in the world .
@orinocodog You are dreaming ahead, if you think any British horse could match what she has done. Have another look at Star Witness' two early runs in the UK. Now have a look at the G2 Schillarci Stakes, G1 Patinack Farm Classic, and G1 Lexus Newmarket Stakes Hcp, the last mentioned being our greatest sprint. Keep your eye on Star Witness. That will tell you how this great mare would have performed in the UK. You have seen nothing like her there.
@SvendBosanvovski Every race is different and black caviar could of easily put up an ordinary performance like star witness in the uk . I have saw all her races and she just beats the same horses time and again . There is no way black caviar should be called the best in the world unless she travels to europe and the breeders cup .
@orinocodog True, but she never has. She has been a model of consistency, and because she is so superior she has never been stressed in her races. She has met and beaten every top class horse in this country, which produces the best sprinters in the world. Sacred Kingdom, Silent Witness, Starspangledbanner, and Takeover Target, and now Black Caviar have all been official world champion - all Aussie bred. The standard of sprinting here is such, that UK horses couldn't place in most of our G1s.
@SvendBosanvovski Austrailia has a great record of brilliant sprinters but the horses you have listed have all nearly all came to the uk and black caviar has stayed in austrailia . Why dont they try and prove see if she's the best in the world and bring her to uk,usa and france .
@orinocodog Thank you for the compliment. You have just made 22 million friends. Why won't she go to the UK? She will next year according to her trainer, Peter Moody. The prize money is very good here for sprinters, much better than the UK, and we have Asia as well. Your great races are especially important to stallion prospects. BC, being a mare, would gain little and risk a lot going OS. She was injured during her 3yo campaign, so connections have to be careful with such a great horse.
@orinocodog you really are deluded hey. Choisir, Takeover Traget, MIss Andretti, Scenic Blast - all Australian horses to go to to Royal Ascot week and win - plus Magnus, Star Witness and many others all proven strong and very completitive. These are the horses that have proven that our sprinters are far superior to European sprinters...the reasons?? Multiple $1,000,000 plus sprint races in Australia every single year. We have bred for speed for 2 decades and our horses are fast...
@Racingwriter85 you say i'm deluded . choisir, takeover target and miss andretti were brilliant , scenic blast won the king stand and then was well beaten in the july cup.
Black caviar beats the same horses every time in austrailia and thats no good for the horses reputation . Why wont she try and join the other greats and come to the uk . if she does and happens to win the king stand , golden jubilee and the july cup then i will agree thats shes the worlds best sprinter .
@orinocodog Black Caviar has beaten the best Australia has got (and like no other horse before her with weight and times that nothing else has ever produced) and because Australian horses have proven themselves to be far superior to your donkeys she is rightfully crowned greatest sprinter in the world...dont be fooled Star Witness is an ok horse....certainly not in the same class as any previous Aussies to travel to UK and win...he is as close to Black Cav as you are to being intelligent...clown
@orinocodog She beat 8 G1 winners here mate , including Alverta who raced very competitively in england 12 or so months ago. Who is Rocketman beating ?
@MrJakobBrown Yes she bet 8 g1 winners that won in austrailia . Alverta ran well in the uk but couldnt get close to the winners in the golden jubilee and the july cup . I dont rate rocketman either as he is just winning soft G1's in the southern hemisphere aswell. Black caviar is a good sprinter but no way she can be talked as the best in the world unless she goes to america,uk,france to win G1's . Still has to prove herself
@orinocodog I agree with you to a certain degree mate , i'd love to see her go overseas. She's beating horses that would be competitive at any level , anywhere in the world. I'm sure you saw how well Star Witness ran in the Kings Stand and Golden Jubilee , he's never got near her. Frankels a machine , i hope his winning streak continues but the only decent horse he's beat to date was Canford Cliffs and he had his excuses. I dont care about some horse who won the German guineas haha.
@MrJakobBrown I saw star witness run and he's quite ordinary . your right in that the horses she is beating would be competitive overseas but they probably wouldnt win. Frankel has beaten more than just canford cliffs . He's bet other G1 winners like Dream ahead, zoffany , wooton basset etc.......Dream ahead would put it up to black caviar any day.
@orinocodog I'd love to see Frankel in a real test before he wins me over. He practically walked the first one or two furlongs in the Sussex stakes which left alot of fuel in the tank for the last 2 furlongs , absolutely everything ran smoothly in that race for him. Leading in a four horse is always the position you want to be. He didn't fair so well in the St James Palace because he didn't get it all his own way with the bigger field and pressure applied earlier/mid race.
@MrJakobBrown Frankel ony ran a bad race in the st james palace as Tom Quieley gave him a bad ride and he got lonely when he hit the front .
He's going for the Q2 in september but I thought he should have went for the Juddmont international where there would be a possible clash with so you think , cape blanco or Await the dawn .
I would agree that he had the run of the race at goodwood but he showed he could get a 5 time G1 winner in canford cliffs off the bridal 2half furlongs .
@orinocodog Dream Ahead ? Don't be ingnorant. Dream Ahead wouldn't even get near Rocket Man or Hay List mate. Star Witness was half a length away in the Kings Stand after bombing the star and 1.5 lengths away in the Golden Jubilee , he then ran below his best in the July Cup , which is a Star Witness thing to do. You're a tough marker.
@MrJakobBrown Dream ahead didnt even race againts star witness in the king stand and golden jubilee and when he did race againts him in the july cup he bet him convincenly . It's very hard to judge southern hemisphere form to northern hemisphere but so far the north works out better with star witness losing . Black caviar and Rocketman will have to come to europe to see whos the best .
@orinocodog Its quite clear Star Witness didn't run up to his best in the July Cup. He likes soft ground , apparentley the harder ground made him jar up. Australia comes out the winner here , proven by Star Witness's runs in the Kings Stand and Golden Jubillee stakes. He got within a length of your best ! Go and see what Black Caviar did to Star Witness in the Newmarket Handicap. She was carrying 58kgs , Star Witness 53kgs , she beat him by 10 lengths in a canter , in race record time.
@MrJakobBrown Black Caviar beat him three times (4lens, 4lens, 7.8lens), giving weight each time (3.5. 3, 5kgs respectively. Each time she was eased by about 3 lens at least, meaning she was at least 9 to 14 lens superior to Star Witness on those three runs. Three times she has run under 33 secs for the final 600m, eased down each time, on a rain affected track (32.67 with 58kgs on her back in the Newmarket, eased a couple of lengths). Unbelievable on these big, flat tracks.
@orinocodog Alverta actually got very close to the winners in the July Cup , a length. Just behind the Australian superstar Starspangledbanner , Equiano and beating Kingsgate Native into 3rd. Not bad form if you ask me.
@MrJakobBrown It was a good run but not a winning one she bet kingsgate native who is terrible . Finished behind equiano who was a good horse when he wanted to be and starspanglebanner who after winning the july cup lost to a 100 shot and markab whos no superstar .
@MrJakobBrown Frankel's beating way more top class horses than black caviar is. He bet a 5 time g1 winning miler in canford cliffs who bet goldikova a 3 times breeders cup winner , 2 G1's in uk and multiple G1's in france. he destroyed a 2000 guinease field which contained 4 G1 winners . He bet excellabration convincenly in the greenham who then went and won the german 2000 guinease by over 10 lenghts . In the st james palace he bet 5 g1 winners including a G1winner from japan in grand prix boss
Also, there is no need to send Black Caviar to Europe. Australian sprinters don't need to prove how much quicker they are anymore. We've seen it enough. Australian breeders put a premium on precocious speedsters. Silent Witness, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Sacred Kingdom, Rocket Man... Everywhere you look, the best sprinters are bred in Australia. What hasn't been proven, is top line Australian sprinters crushing U.S sprinters. That's what I'd be interested to see.
In America, our turf sprinters are weak. Turf racing, overall, has gone donwhill. Our dirt sprinters can run with the best. Black Caviar would be the heavy favorite on turf.
Really hope that Hay List takes to travelling. He would be competitive in any G1 sprint in the world, and would be a fair chance to dominate Europe, unless of course, Black Caviar is there.
Alverta is by no means a top line sprinter in Australia, there'd be at least a dozen quicker than her. Yet she managed a good 3rd to Starspangled Banner in the July Cup. Highlighting the overrated quality of the European sprinters.
What's so amazing about this mare is that she broke very awkwardly in this race. Then she really didn't seem to be at what I would call her absolute best in this race either. But she still run's down a great sprinter in his own right in Hay List like he was sitting still. Every time I see this mare race, she just amazes me even more than the time before!! Just incredible!!
@GBeret83 Rumour has it that she is struggling to recover from this run and that her Brisbane trip is now in jeopardy. I hope Moody and the connections put the horses interests first and spell her now. She is too precious a commodity to burn her out now. The Australian spring and then the world beckon.
I sooooooooo hope to see Black Caviar coming down that long Royal-Ascot straight in this year's Golden Jubilee Stakes. Showing the likes of Starspangledbanner, Lady of the Desert, Equiano, and the others what a real sprinter looks like!! Also think this mare would be suited perfectly to take on the best European sprinters at Longchamp in October in the Prix De l' Abbaye. JMO.
@GBeret83 To be fair I think Starspangledbanner's best distance is a mile, but other than that. I don't see why Black Caviar has to go overseas lol, Australia's best sprinters are lengths better than Europe's best- Hay List would have beaten any other sprinter in the world on this effort yet still loses by 2 lengths to Black Cav. She's a champion
@ASupremeOwl How is it a claim? Australians (and Ausbreds) consistently go to Europe and win the sprints they target. As for European sprinters I can't think of one that has came over here. Tell me one European sprinter that has travelled to Hong Kong, Australia, Japan or Singapore to win a major sprint? As for Australian sprinters that have won in Europe- Choisir, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Starspangledbanner etc. You honestly think anything in Europe can beat our best? Funny
@TheDLPVideos The UK racing and breeding industries are shaped around middle distance and staying events, which is why a cast-off like Kingdom of Fife can win our group one races, but would be struggling in the UK. Similarly, our industry over the past half century has rewarded fast horses, particularly precocious 2yos. I agree with your observations, but we shouldn't forget that the horses you mention were bred from English and Irish sires. Hay List from an American and SYT from an Irish sire.
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If you like Black Caviar please checkout my painting of her and like my page if you like it.
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IAmAmyGreen 6 days ago
just shows how good she is, i love you nelly
myheroblackcavair 1 week ago
All these toothless poms will have egg on their face when black caviar beats frankel over a mile in the queen anne, fuck i hope moody chooses runs in that.
bbaacckkeerrss 2 weeks ago
She is good but not the best in the world... Strong suit would beat her before even thinking about excelebration or frankel
olimillz9 4 weeks ago
@olimillz9 get off the drugs mate....Black Caviar is a once in a lifetime sprinter from the country that supplies the majority of the world's best sprinters !!! Hay List is the 2nd best. The likes of Rocket Man, Silent Witness, Sacred Kingdom etc were all bred in Aust. Ever heard of Choisir, Scenic Blast, Miss Andretti, Takeover Target, Starspangledbanner ? They all won in England in the past 10 years and only Miss Andretti was considered our best. Black Caviar would brain that lot !
leedelaney70 3 weeks ago
Wow!...this race reminded me of when Makybe Diva ran down Grand Armee in the BMW many years ago.
surveyor99 1 month ago
WOW!! with 400 left i was like there is no way in, hang on a sec is she running down HAYLIST, no that's impossible oh wait she passed him, well she won't him by much oh wait!! hahaha
flickyflicky007 1 month ago
To be honest both horse should race in dubai.
It would be unfair to judge the horse that had to travel off of one race.
Broky80 1 month ago
THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THESE SPRINTERS.......
QUARTERHORSES ARE FASTER......I like to see these overrated sprinters sprint after they run 9 furlongs.....and that includes another overhyped overrated FRANKEL
duhru4real 2 months ago
@duhru4real
Good joke, quarter horses are faster over 400m, I believe they have even been stretched out to near 800m, but they end up dying after that distance. A thoroughbred would beat and quarter horse over 800+
Broky80 1 month ago
@Broky80
youtube.com/watch?v=bMqS9ad-1xM
Broky80 1 month ago
Haylist is very special but she went past him as if he were nailed to the fence.
scrappy5011 2 months ago
It is not only UK based Timeform which rate BC below Frankel ; the International Classifications - officially the world rankings - and voted for by the IFHA ( 59 member countries ), also has Frankel well clear. The ratings are based on the overall form of each horse - concentrating mainly on the grade of race each horse wins and the quality of opposition they beat. Times and margins won by meaning nothing unless the defeated horses are of a high standard. Her rating may yet rise in 2012.
ThefightingCelt 3 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Yeah I know, it is annoying though when we have a horse here who is winning in 2nd gear, has now scared off decent opposition, and has therefore plateaued regarding Timeform. She has plenty left in the tank, the question is how much? This is why I pray for a miracle that she and Frankel could meet one day on the track. I have little doubt the result would be a lift in her ratings.
schardy80 3 months ago
@schardy80 Her rating would only increase if and when she met and defeated higher rated opponents. Let's be clear on one thing; the only time she will meet Frankel ( as Peter Moody said himself ) is in the breeding shed. Frankel's trainer has already mapped out his races for his 4 year old career. Dropping back in distance is highly unlikely. Black Caviar's best chance of increasing her overallrating will be in the 5 f King's Stand Stakes and probably the 6f Diamond Jubilee Stakes at Royal Ascot
ThefightingCelt 3 months ago
@ThefightingCelt I know she won't meet him on the track thats why i said I was praying for a miracle. If that miracle came to be, and she went down to Frankel in a classic duel down to the wire then surely her rating would lift? Or would his fall? Obviously if she beat him then things would change dramatically.
schardy80 3 months ago
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@ThefightingCelt we are yet to see her show any signs of "burning out" whether she has been setting the pace or sitting off the pace. just look at her sectionals. I wish i could say the same for Frankel in his 9 starts, but you just need to look at the st james palace. definitely didn't see any evidence of him "maintaining a blistering gallop" there. beating spastics by 3/4 of a length doesnt make you a champion.
bbaacckkeerrss 4 months ago
@TheFightingCelt we are yet to see her show any signs of "burning out" whether she has been setting the pace or sitting off the pace. just look at her sectionals. I wish i could say the same for Frankel in his 9 starts, but you just need to look at the st james palace. definitely didn't see any evidence of him "maintaining a blistering gallop" there. beating spastics by 3/4 of a length doesnt make you a champion.
bbaacckkeerrss 4 months ago
@bbaacckkeerrss The St. James Palace Stakes was, by comment consent, not Tom Queally's finest hour. He disobeyed his trainer's instructions to hold onto him for as long as possible before unleahing his finishing kick. They wanted to try and settle him after his runaway 2,000 GNS win, as Sir Henry Cecil said he was still a big baby and would get stronger as the season progressed. He did so, and went onto beat Europe's finest milers. The SJP was the one and only race where he has idled in front.
ThefightingCelt 4 months ago
Taking nothing away from Black Caviar in this race, but it is quite obvious that Hay List has set off much too fast. He hasn't got the stamina to see it through. Black Caviar showed great determination to close Hay List down, but Hay List is clearly tiring as they approach the final furlong.
ThefightingCelt 4 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Honestly I would love to see how Queally would handle Frankel in the hypothetical match race. If I was on Frankel I would be going hard and trying to gas her, hoping that she would be cooked. I cannot conceive of any horse allowing Black Caviar to canter up on the rump, and then hope to burn her off in the final 2f. She has biblically good turn of foot. Frankel would have to test her endurance because even he doesn't have the pure speed to beat her in a pure sprint for home IMO
schardy80 4 months ago
Black Caviar would need an oxygen mask and a turbo booster rammed up her backside in order to get within even two lengths of Frankel ( " the monster" ). He would destroy her at a mile. She would be freely available at 5/2 or over to beat him in a two horse race. Frankel would be odds on favourite. He would make the running with the Aussie mare stalking him, cantering just behind. Tom Queally would then let out an inch of rein and that giant Frankel stride would leave Black Caviar for dead.
ThefightingCelt 4 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Her backside is equipped with a natural turbo booster haha. Sure, she would need to dig deep and lift to another level to beat Frankel.....but she is a cut above Canford Cliffs, Dream Ahead, Excelebration etc.....he would know he was in a race don't worry about that. Certainly a poor Queally ride would be fatal against BC.
schardy80 4 months ago
@schardy80 See, I do not wish to be patronizing in any way, but you are not comparing like with like. A mile is very different to a six furlong sprint. Most failed milers either drop back in distance ( eg Dream ahead ) or they are upped in distance. The three colts you mentioned all tried the same cat and mouse tactics with Frankel - in 7f races as well as mile races - and all met the same fate. Frankel's ability to maintain a blistering gallop would eventually burn Black Caviar's jets out.
ThefightingCelt 4 months ago
@ThefightingCelt I am making the assumption that she will make the transition to miler next prep, so yes for now the comparison isn't like for like. You aren't being patronising, you and many of your European mates don't give her a snowballs chance of beating him. That is your opinion, and yes the guys at Timeform are on your side, so fair enough then. She has hit the glass ceiling here in Australia, she cannot lift her rating as she has basically cannibalised her competition here and the
schardy80 4 months ago
@schardy80 If it is any consolation to Black Caviar and you, I am certainly not one of those of subscribe to the theory that Frankel would beat Black Caviar in a sprint race, in this case, over 1200 m ( 6f ). He is not a sprinter and his esteemed trainer, Sir Henry Cecil, has said as much. Black Caviar, as a true sprinter, has pace to burn, and therein ( as any racing aficiando will tell you ) lies the doubt about her being able to sustain that kind of speed over a fast run mile against Frankel.
ThefightingCelt 3 months ago
No argument that there has to be some doubt about her translating her dominance at sprinting to the mile. However, she relaxes so well and has such supreme cruising speed that I would be stunned if she didn't excel at 7f and beyond. Take it for what its worth, but Peter Moody believes she will be even better over further. The issue to my mind is whether she would be strong enough at a mile to challenge Frankel. What I am confident of is that should they ever meet, the revised Timeform ratings
schardy80 3 months ago
@schardy80 i highly doubt moody thinks she will be even better over further distance he might say that but i doubt it because if thats the case why hasnt he moved her up in distance.its not like we are talking about a 3yr old filly here she is gonna be 6 you dont wait that long if you are that confident in a horse at longer distances.
tjjlm444 1 month ago
@ThefightingCelt would bridge the gap between the two animals. Frankel is a freak, one of the best ever, but so is she. No way known would Frankel destroy BC. Yet that is what the ratings suggest at the moment. It is not hard to see that Australia is not where the power base of Timeform resides. It is, to me anyway, unfathomable that a horse that dominant, could be so far adrift. She has won 16 top races with ridiculous ease, mostly in brilliant times. How can you run 1.07 with 58kg that easily?
schardy80 3 months ago
@ThefightingCelt only possible way of improving her rating, fully extending her, has never been in the trainer or jockeys plans. Racing her against the clock, running sub 1.06 for 6f, winning by 15 lengths....things she appears to have the potential to do, would lift her rating but theres no extra prizemoney for that. The difference in ratings between her and Frankel is misleading. I only wish we could see how misleading on the track one day. Have to settle for butchering the Kings Stand etc
schardy80 4 months ago
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ThefightingCelt 3 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Plus Moody thinks she will improve with the extra distance, and if she does then only a fool would dismiss her as a serious threat to Frankel. They won't meet and I hate that reality.
schardy80 4 months ago
@ThefightingCelt If they do meet-I hope youre right about Frankel being odds on favorite.That means BC would be about 6/4?My God,I hope youre right.Ill be able to retire 10 years earlier than I expected!
scrappy5011 2 months ago
@scrappy5011 They won't meet, unless Peter Moody decides to come over to Britain earleir than planned, as Frankel's first race ( it has been confirmed ) will be the 1 mile Locking Stakes at Newbury for 4 year olds and upwards. After that, Frankel will be aimed at the top mile and a quarter races. I have no doubt at all that over 7 furlongs or a mile, Frankel would beat Black Caviar without too much trouble.
ThefightingCelt 2 months ago
@ThefightingCelt lol lol at1000m, 1200m & 1400m Frankel would get sick of seeing Black Caviar's massive rump. At 1600m and beyond you would think Frankel would be advantaged. In saying that Black Caviar is untried over 1600m and she may be just as dominant. If there was ever to be a match race it should be over 1400m (7 furlongs), a distance both horses have won at & it should be in Dubai on turf. Now that would be a race for the ages. I'd smash Black Caviar hard !
leedelaney70 3 weeks ago
@leedelaney70 You'd lose all your monopoly money if you did. Black Caviar is very good, but she has been made to look even better by some of those one paced nags she races against. What odds was she on her last two starts ? That's right, 1/25 and 1/20. That tells me everything I need to know about the quality of opposition she has been facing. She will know she has been in a race should Peter Moody have the balls to take her to Dubai and then royal Ascot to face better horses.
ThefightingCelt 3 weeks ago
@ThefightingCelt You're kidding right. Did you see that one paced nag Alverta ? She actually is a one paced nag compared to Black Caviar , but she was still good enough to run 3rd in YOUR July Cup. Get up off the dildo you're sitting on mate , its clouding your thinking and its bad for your health.
MrJakobBrown 3 weeks ago
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ThefightingCelt 3 weeks ago
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@MrJakobBrown Well,Jakob Brown,I have been around the horse racing scene for more years than I care to remember and one thing that I have learned over the years about so called great horses is this:it matters not a jot how many races or consecutive races they win, or how easily they accomplish those wins - the determining factor in gauging that greatness is the overall quality of horses that they defeated. Hay List apart, I can't think of another "victim" who can be rated even close to her.
ThefightingCelt 3 weeks ago
@MrJakobBrown Black Caviar would beat Alverta by 15 lengths hard held. They just don't get it !! Aussie sprinters go over there and kick their brains in time and time again and Black Caviar is the best of the best and these fools want to doubt her......I just hope they lay her big time as I'll be ready and waiting
leedelaney70 2 weeks ago
@leedelaney70 I'll be setting sail in my little convict dingy just to get some of those juicy odds. Might even put them out of business. 10 each way of course.
MrJakobBrown 2 weeks ago
@ThefightingCelt She is not going to face better horses anywhere. It's well known Australia has the greatest depth of sprinters. So even the horses she is beating easily such as Hay List, Star Witness etc would be winning in Dubai/England etc She's started those prices as she is clearly the worlds best sprinter and could even be the best sprinter EVER !! What price do you expect her to be @ Ascot ? She'll be 1/5 or 1/10 at best !!
leedelaney70 2 weeks ago
@leedelaney70 I still maintain that Peter Moody and BC's owners are taking the easier route with her in order to preserve her 100% record. She has already beaten Hay List senseless and unless that horse has improved by 2 stones, then she will beat him easily again. No one is arguing against BC being the best sprinter on the planet. My argument is that she will be tested far more than ever at Royal Ascot, where, incidentally, a leading UK bookmaker has offered odds of 4/5 her winning a race there
ThefightingCelt 2 weeks ago
@ThefightingCelt Hay List is the second best sprinter in the world by the way. Hay List would have destroyed Takeover Target and Choisir and the other B grade Aussie horses that have had success in England.
314159192829 2 weeks ago
@314159192829 Well Mr Numbers, when Choisir and Takeover Target won at Royal Ascot, the UK sprinters were a very average bunch indeed. Hay List is a good horse but neither he nor the other two aforementiond Aussie sprinters would have troubled the brilliant Dayjur - a British trained sprinter who would have made even Black Caviar pull out all the stops.
ThefightingCelt 2 weeks ago
@ThefightingCelt You must admit. The form around her has stacked up pretty well. Did you catch Atomic Force in New Zealand ? Always been a horse who doesn't run the strongest 6f but he raced well over there. Wouldn't get within 10 lengths of BC on a good day. Star Witness and Alverta as i'm sure you know , also weren't disgraced overseas. I'm glad that you aren't blind enough to see that she's clearly the best sprinter anywhere in the world right now , maybe even better then Dayjur. Yep.
MrJakobBrown 2 weeks ago
@MrJakobBrown She's better than the US bred Dayjur. No problems about that. I've certainly gotta agree with you there MrJakobBrown
leedelaney70 56 minutes ago
@314159192829 B grade Aussie horses?? What kind of retard calls Takeover Target a B Grader!?
TheDanbyRoad 2 weeks ago
@TheDanbyRoad Takeover Target 41 starts 21 wins. Black Caviar 19 starts 19 wins.
314159192829 2 weeks ago
@314159192829 haha you're a muppet mate, black caviar is a freak. takeover target was a champion. any horse with multiple group 1 wins that include Salinger Stakes (G1) (2004) Lightning Stakes (G1) (2006) Newmarket Handicap (G1) (2006)
King's Stand Stakes (G2) (2006)
Sprinters Stakes (G1) (2006)
Doomben 10,000 (G1) (2007)
KrisFlyer International Sprint (G1) (2008)
T J Smith Stakes (G1) (2009))
The Goodwood (G1) (2009) and a (over) 50% winning ratio i'd own any fucking day of the week.
bbaacckkeerrss 2 weeks ago 4
@bbaacckkeerrss Fair enough, you have convinced me.
314159192829 1 week ago
@314159192829 Lol wtf was this supposed to prove?
TheDanbyRoad 19 hours ago
@leedelaney70 Again, I have to take issue. Yes, she is the best sprinter in the world - and I do stress, sprinter ! The main reason she starts at such prohibitive odds is due her weak opposition.
ThefightingCelt 2 weeks ago
@ThefightingCelt weak in comparison - yes..
mixedone12345 2 weeks ago
@ASupremeOwl i just hope they give me something better than odds on for Black Caviar when she steps up to the mile to take on Frankel. absolutely unadulterated stealing money. I should wear a balaklava when i go and put that bet on. It's just a shame Australian horses always need to travel to Europe to make a mockery of their non-distance races. Look at Scene Blast and Star Witness, both ran 1st and 2nd in Englands premier sprinting race. they'd be lucky to win a class one at Toowoomba.
bbaacckkeerrss 4 months ago
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ThefightingCelt 4 months ago
was this her 11th win?
pirocan1 4 months ago
Well she won the Patinack easily. Its her stride that is different -she takes 9 to the furlong versus 11 for most horses. The thing I find remarkable is that she is a big mare (she is even big foe a horse) but she gets up to speed very quickly. That back end is all power.
baird55aus 4 months ago
@Emilybacon91 Nor have they travelled to where she is unlike horses like Dunedin who came here and one the Melbourne Cup. The ratings for horses are done world wide and she is currently second on that list and the highest ranked sprinter. She does have Sepoy chasing her heals too but that should change on after the Patinach on Saturday. She is so good that others here won't race against her. it makes no sense to me when second prize is 180K
baird55aus 4 months ago
Black Caviar will be sticking to her cosy 6f to preserve her record. I'll put money on that, Whilst Frankel will be establishing himself as one of racing's legends even though he is one now... Black Caviar is good, But give it a rest with this 'Best in the world' bollocks. The ratings speak for themself...
Frankel 135
Black Caviar 128
ASupremeOwl 4 months ago
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Black Caviar racing in a field of 4 against the same horses with even horses having to be moved away from her to avoid interference. Yawn Yawn Yawn. I can't wait for her to have a real test, Shes clearly racing inferior animals week in week out. Australia's answer to Zenyatta. How Black Caviar is even mentioned in the same breath as Frankel is embarrasing. Shes never even raced over the 6f. Frankel as done 7f, 8f and next year he will be tackling 10f...
ASupremeOwl 4 months ago
How the fuck did a Black Caviar/Hay List quinella pay $5? Should have paid $1.20.
themightyeythain 4 months ago
@themightyeythain WTF?? no shit ey thats some seriously high bank interest. the exacta was $6.10 and hay list was $2.50 a place now thats just fuckin ridiculous
slobzer 4 months ago
Oh perleassee enough of the my horse is better than your horse rubbish and grow up! Accept it yes Black Caviar may be the best sprinter in Australia but thats it, she's the best in Australia, but also accept that she is not the worlds best sprinter as she hasnt taken on the world, she hasn't travelled to Europe (yet) or the US so therefore in my opinion she hasnt earn't the right to be called the worlds best Sprinter... yet!
Emilybacon91 4 months ago
@Emilybacon91 European sprinters are poor to say the least, US does not have the depth of Aus.
Mummify00 4 months ago
@Emilybacon91 Timeform ratings would be just a tad more accurate then yourself. Black Caviar is easily the best sprinter in the world , you're blind , deaf and stupid if you can't see that. The argument is whether she is the best horse in the world , which is debatable. She'll race overseas shortly and show the whole world how great she truely is.
MrJakobBrown 4 months ago
@MrJakobBrown I really couldn't give a fig what Timeform ratings say. She isnt the worlds best sprinter as she has never left Australia and taken on the world so how can you say that apart from what Timeform says? And don't be so flipping rude and learn some manners! I can read, hear and i'm not stupid i just have my own opinion thank you very much but be a sad act and insult me if thats all you can do..
Emilybacon91 4 months ago
@Emilybacon91 Geez women are so temperamental. It wasn't directed to just you , it was directed at everyone who can't see how great Black Caviar is. I have better things to do then pick on you miss. Now now . you go take two advil and have a glass of water and a little lay down.
MrJakobBrown 4 months ago
Well done and pretty easy, but the jockey was very complacent. Had Hay List quickened then BC might have struggled. I know people will rubbish my comment, but you can't count on anything. You never know what could happen. Also, BC has the potential to get boxed in - and I wouldn't go past collusion. A good ride, but Hay List showed the possible way to beat her: steal a potential winning break. From a champion pov she is just phenomenal.
JamesBoy4LifeMan4Luv 5 months ago
poor hay list, it beat the others by bout 4 lengths lol
patali09 5 months ago
I still think takeover target was the best sprinter in the world. G1's in all Australian states not to mention a handful of wins when he took on the world internationally
spukkar 6 months ago
@spukkar He was a mighty warrior, that's for sure. Big heart, as game as they come. Yes, and he was official world champion. His win in Japan was probably his best, but we are probably never going to see a horse emulate his performance of winning in all major Australian states (except WA?) and in the UK, Japan and Singapore. Good thing he never made a comeback with her around, though. We have never seen one better, with the possible excpetion of Vain and Manikato.
SvendBosanvovski 6 months ago
BC is the best sprinter in the world without doubt. We have great racing carnivals in Australia where any horse is welcome. Why does BC need to go OS to prove her greatness? Come take her on here if you dare!
curtains73 6 months ago 11
@curtains73 More like the question should be aimed at BC's owners to take BC out of oz.
aloozer 5 months ago
@curtains73 BC has to leave Australia to prove her worth because, lets face it, the best horses, races, and race courses in the world are in Ireland and the UK. I'm not trying to take a stab by the way, its the truth... Ask any top class jockey and they would tell you the same thing. BC seems to be an unbelievable horse, and I dont doubt that she would trounce many Irish and British horses... Would she beat Frankel though? Personally I dont think so, but It would be won incredible spectacle!
omalley8600 4 months ago
@omalley8600 Correct. It is no insult to Aus racing to point out that the UK/France?Ireland scene is where the prestige is. BC may well be good enough to come to Europe, win the Golden Jubilee and July Cup and underline her claims but until she does she is a good horse winning in a relativebackwater. As I say absolutely no insuolt intended. Just telling it straight. BTW I hope she does prove it.
tigerarmyrule 4 months ago
In fairness barring breeding reasons there's no point her coming over to the UK.
She could probably give our bunch a stone and a half and a lengths beating. Our group are so wonderfully inconsistant it's ridiculous. I don't have figures but I would love to see Timeforms variance in ratings of our horses in top sprints. Reckon most them probably have a 2 stone variance between there best and worst performances of the year.
Must say Moonlight Cloud looked V good Sunday, until the next run.
ShotFromTheHip 7 months ago
Dream ahead prefairs soft ground aswell and still won well . Dont get me wrong i think black caviar is a really good horse all im saying is that she is over rated for what she has won . She is no way the best in the world .
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog You are dreaming ahead, if you think any British horse could match what she has done. Have another look at Star Witness' two early runs in the UK. Now have a look at the G2 Schillarci Stakes, G1 Patinack Farm Classic, and G1 Lexus Newmarket Stakes Hcp, the last mentioned being our greatest sprint. Keep your eye on Star Witness. That will tell you how this great mare would have performed in the UK. You have seen nothing like her there.
SvendBosanvovski 7 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski Every race is different and black caviar could of easily put up an ordinary performance like star witness in the uk . I have saw all her races and she just beats the same horses time and again . There is no way black caviar should be called the best in the world unless she travels to europe and the breeders cup .
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog True, but she never has. She has been a model of consistency, and because she is so superior she has never been stressed in her races. She has met and beaten every top class horse in this country, which produces the best sprinters in the world. Sacred Kingdom, Silent Witness, Starspangledbanner, and Takeover Target, and now Black Caviar have all been official world champion - all Aussie bred. The standard of sprinting here is such, that UK horses couldn't place in most of our G1s.
SvendBosanvovski 7 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski Austrailia has a great record of brilliant sprinters but the horses you have listed have all nearly all came to the uk and black caviar has stayed in austrailia . Why dont they try and prove see if she's the best in the world and bring her to uk,usa and france .
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog Thank you for the compliment. You have just made 22 million friends. Why won't she go to the UK? She will next year according to her trainer, Peter Moody. The prize money is very good here for sprinters, much better than the UK, and we have Asia as well. Your great races are especially important to stallion prospects. BC, being a mare, would gain little and risk a lot going OS. She was injured during her 3yo campaign, so connections have to be careful with such a great horse.
SvendBosanvovski 7 months ago
@orinocodog you really are deluded hey. Choisir, Takeover Traget, MIss Andretti, Scenic Blast - all Australian horses to go to to Royal Ascot week and win - plus Magnus, Star Witness and many others all proven strong and very completitive. These are the horses that have proven that our sprinters are far superior to European sprinters...the reasons?? Multiple $1,000,000 plus sprint races in Australia every single year. We have bred for speed for 2 decades and our horses are fast...
Racingwriter85 6 months ago
@Racingwriter85 you say i'm deluded . choisir, takeover target and miss andretti were brilliant , scenic blast won the king stand and then was well beaten in the july cup.
Black caviar beats the same horses every time in austrailia and thats no good for the horses reputation . Why wont she try and join the other greats and come to the uk . if she does and happens to win the king stand , golden jubilee and the july cup then i will agree thats shes the worlds best sprinter .
orinocodog 6 months ago
@orinocodog Black Caviar has beaten the best Australia has got (and like no other horse before her with weight and times that nothing else has ever produced) and because Australian horses have proven themselves to be far superior to your donkeys she is rightfully crowned greatest sprinter in the world...dont be fooled Star Witness is an ok horse....certainly not in the same class as any previous Aussies to travel to UK and win...he is as close to Black Cav as you are to being intelligent...clown
Racingwriter85 6 months ago 9
@Racingwriter85 well maby the horses that black caviar beats are no good comared to the other horses that the greats bet.
orinocodog 6 months ago
bet nothing
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog She beat 8 G1 winners here mate , including Alverta who raced very competitively in england 12 or so months ago. Who is Rocketman beating ?
MrJakobBrown 7 months ago
@MrJakobBrown Yes she bet 8 g1 winners that won in austrailia . Alverta ran well in the uk but couldnt get close to the winners in the golden jubilee and the july cup . I dont rate rocketman either as he is just winning soft G1's in the southern hemisphere aswell. Black caviar is a good sprinter but no way she can be talked as the best in the world unless she goes to america,uk,france to win G1's . Still has to prove herself
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog I agree with you to a certain degree mate , i'd love to see her go overseas. She's beating horses that would be competitive at any level , anywhere in the world. I'm sure you saw how well Star Witness ran in the Kings Stand and Golden Jubilee , he's never got near her. Frankels a machine , i hope his winning streak continues but the only decent horse he's beat to date was Canford Cliffs and he had his excuses. I dont care about some horse who won the German guineas haha.
MrJakobBrown 7 months ago
@MrJakobBrown I saw star witness run and he's quite ordinary . your right in that the horses she is beating would be competitive overseas but they probably wouldnt win. Frankel has beaten more than just canford cliffs . He's bet other G1 winners like Dream ahead, zoffany , wooton basset etc.......Dream ahead would put it up to black caviar any day.
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog I'd love to see Frankel in a real test before he wins me over. He practically walked the first one or two furlongs in the Sussex stakes which left alot of fuel in the tank for the last 2 furlongs , absolutely everything ran smoothly in that race for him. Leading in a four horse is always the position you want to be. He didn't fair so well in the St James Palace because he didn't get it all his own way with the bigger field and pressure applied earlier/mid race.
MrJakobBrown 7 months ago
@MrJakobBrown Frankel ony ran a bad race in the st james palace as Tom Quieley gave him a bad ride and he got lonely when he hit the front .
He's going for the Q2 in september but I thought he should have went for the Juddmont international where there would be a possible clash with so you think , cape blanco or Await the dawn .
I would agree that he had the run of the race at goodwood but he showed he could get a 5 time G1 winner in canford cliffs off the bridal 2half furlongs .
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog Dream Ahead ? Don't be ingnorant. Dream Ahead wouldn't even get near Rocket Man or Hay List mate. Star Witness was half a length away in the Kings Stand after bombing the star and 1.5 lengths away in the Golden Jubilee , he then ran below his best in the July Cup , which is a Star Witness thing to do. You're a tough marker.
MrJakobBrown 7 months ago
@MrJakobBrown Dream ahead didnt even race againts star witness in the king stand and golden jubilee and when he did race againts him in the july cup he bet him convincenly . It's very hard to judge southern hemisphere form to northern hemisphere but so far the north works out better with star witness losing . Black caviar and Rocketman will have to come to europe to see whos the best .
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog Its quite clear Star Witness didn't run up to his best in the July Cup. He likes soft ground , apparentley the harder ground made him jar up. Australia comes out the winner here , proven by Star Witness's runs in the Kings Stand and Golden Jubillee stakes. He got within a length of your best ! Go and see what Black Caviar did to Star Witness in the Newmarket Handicap. She was carrying 58kgs , Star Witness 53kgs , she beat him by 10 lengths in a canter , in race record time.
MrJakobBrown 7 months ago
@MrJakobBrown Black Caviar beat him three times (4lens, 4lens, 7.8lens), giving weight each time (3.5. 3, 5kgs respectively. Each time she was eased by about 3 lens at least, meaning she was at least 9 to 14 lens superior to Star Witness on those three runs. Three times she has run under 33 secs for the final 600m, eased down each time, on a rain affected track (32.67 with 58kgs on her back in the Newmarket, eased a couple of lengths). Unbelievable on these big, flat tracks.
SvendBosanvovski 7 months ago
@orinocodog Alverta actually got very close to the winners in the July Cup , a length. Just behind the Australian superstar Starspangledbanner , Equiano and beating Kingsgate Native into 3rd. Not bad form if you ask me.
MrJakobBrown 7 months ago
@MrJakobBrown It was a good run but not a winning one she bet kingsgate native who is terrible . Finished behind equiano who was a good horse when he wanted to be and starspanglebanner who after winning the july cup lost to a 100 shot and markab whos no superstar .
orinocodog 7 months ago
@orinocodog Frankels beating no one of any more class then Black Caviar is.
MrJakobBrown 7 months ago
@MrJakobBrown Frankel's beating way more top class horses than black caviar is. He bet a 5 time g1 winning miler in canford cliffs who bet goldikova a 3 times breeders cup winner , 2 G1's in uk and multiple G1's in france. he destroyed a 2000 guinease field which contained 4 G1 winners . He bet excellabration convincenly in the greenham who then went and won the german 2000 guinease by over 10 lenghts . In the st james palace he bet 5 g1 winners including a G1winner from japan in grand prix boss
orinocodog 7 months ago
Also, there is no need to send Black Caviar to Europe. Australian sprinters don't need to prove how much quicker they are anymore. We've seen it enough. Australian breeders put a premium on precocious speedsters. Silent Witness, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Sacred Kingdom, Rocket Man... Everywhere you look, the best sprinters are bred in Australia. What hasn't been proven, is top line Australian sprinters crushing U.S sprinters. That's what I'd be interested to see.
OffCrumpet 10 months ago
@OffCrumpet
In America, our turf sprinters are weak. Turf racing, overall, has gone donwhill. Our dirt sprinters can run with the best. Black Caviar would be the heavy favorite on turf.
bg147 8 months ago
Really hope that Hay List takes to travelling. He would be competitive in any G1 sprint in the world, and would be a fair chance to dominate Europe, unless of course, Black Caviar is there.
Alverta is by no means a top line sprinter in Australia, there'd be at least a dozen quicker than her. Yet she managed a good 3rd to Starspangled Banner in the July Cup. Highlighting the overrated quality of the European sprinters.
OffCrumpet 10 months ago
What's so amazing about this mare is that she broke very awkwardly in this race. Then she really didn't seem to be at what I would call her absolute best in this race either. But she still run's down a great sprinter in his own right in Hay List like he was sitting still. Every time I see this mare race, she just amazes me even more than the time before!! Just incredible!!
GBeret83 10 months ago
@GBeret83 Rumour has it that she is struggling to recover from this run and that her Brisbane trip is now in jeopardy. I hope Moody and the connections put the horses interests first and spell her now. She is too precious a commodity to burn her out now. The Australian spring and then the world beckon.
schardy80 10 months ago
I sooooooooo hope to see Black Caviar coming down that long Royal-Ascot straight in this year's Golden Jubilee Stakes. Showing the likes of Starspangledbanner, Lady of the Desert, Equiano, and the others what a real sprinter looks like!! Also think this mare would be suited perfectly to take on the best European sprinters at Longchamp in October in the Prix De l' Abbaye. JMO.
GBeret83 10 months ago
@GBeret83 To be fair I think Starspangledbanner's best distance is a mile, but other than that. I don't see why Black Caviar has to go overseas lol, Australia's best sprinters are lengths better than Europe's best- Hay List would have beaten any other sprinter in the world on this effort yet still loses by 2 lengths to Black Cav. She's a champion
TheDLPVideos 10 months ago
@TheDLPVideos How can you claim that Australias best sprinters are better than Europes when half the time they don't even travel over?
ASupremeOwl 10 months ago
@ASupremeOwl How is it a claim? Australians (and Ausbreds) consistently go to Europe and win the sprints they target. As for European sprinters I can't think of one that has came over here. Tell me one European sprinter that has travelled to Hong Kong, Australia, Japan or Singapore to win a major sprint? As for Australian sprinters that have won in Europe- Choisir, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Starspangledbanner etc. You honestly think anything in Europe can beat our best? Funny
TheDLPVideos 10 months ago
@TheDLPVideos The UK racing and breeding industries are shaped around middle distance and staying events, which is why a cast-off like Kingdom of Fife can win our group one races, but would be struggling in the UK. Similarly, our industry over the past half century has rewarded fast horses, particularly precocious 2yos. I agree with your observations, but we shouldn't forget that the horses you mention were bred from English and Irish sires. Hay List from an American and SYT from an Irish sire.
SvendBosanvovski 9 months ago
By now, eveyone should know BLACK CAVIAR is Oz's true DOMESTIC 'world champion' :)
mohawk548 9 months ago
Beautiful horse! Beautiful run! Beautiful win! XO
lovetheponies 10 months ago