Catalyst for Discussion: Affirmative Action

[slapstickaction]

I'm definetly opposed to AA. Its an old law that has no meaning today but people of a certain race still use it because they still think its the 1960s.

[bloodwolfshadow]

I am a democrat, and I oppose affirmative action. The only way to bring about equality is to treat everyone equally.

[PaiprBoi]

a black guy get's hired, then fired for some bullshit reason & or forced to quit do to some fake bullshit. another get's done the same way...again & again!

[makezmuzic]

I say many, not all, white women have turned toxic behind AA because they used it to reinforce their white privilage. Their entitlement.

Their idea of "giving back" is hiring a person of color to clean their homes.

[makezmuzic]

I would say that White supremacy is one of the biggest "free Rides" there are. LOL! This country, England, S. Africa & Australia were built on white men & women being the biggest "free riders" there are.

[makezmuzic]

White men have been living off of Affrimative Action for 100's of years. It's called "the Old Boy" network. At one time it was called Unions. Even the Masons.

Quit whinning you guys. You are still reapping the benefits. AA has done more for your wives and daugters - White Women than for any other group. We know have a "good ol' girls" network that are just as toxic.

[TheSharpenedPen]

I've been told I wouldn't be hired because I am white male, & have heard numerous accounts from other white males of the self same thing. It is especially bad for white males who want to enter a variety of government positions including: policing, firefighting, etc, as well as with large corporations like GM. I remember a line to GM for white guys in the freezing cold, & minority groups moving to the head of the line - waiting indoors. A # of 'privileged' white males got frost bite that day.

[TheSharpenedPen]

The practice of affirmative action has a lot to do with why America and other western nations now lack the competitive edge we had for decades. Instead of taking the best person for the job, we've become consumed with skin pigmentation and gender to the point that trade imbalances with other nations are skyrocketing as our manufacturing sector plummets. Ya, smart move affirmative action. Tell me how great it is when we're both standing in a bread line and I'll give you a smack.

[makezmuzic]

LOL! It seems as if someone dulled your pen. Our trade imbalance has nothing to do with AA. We all got sold out by the upper class. Mainly White upper class trying to make the most money by spending the least on wages and taxes. Those are YOUR buddies not mine. Go get in line at Lowes Hardware.

Learn how to cope. WHITE male supremacy is officially over and replaced by the mighty dollar. As you see, even the White "Overseer" position has been sold to the highest bidder. Learn to cope.

[TheSharpenedPen]

You're such a racist, that it's unbelievable that you even have any gripes about the way, that any given group was treated in the past. Treat others the way you wish to be treated, or else shut the fuck up. You seem to think that every white person deserves to be treated like crap because of some past injustice - that's an injustice onto itself. China doesn't have affirmative action, nor do many of its Asian neighbors. We do. I'll let you do the trade imbalance equations. They're not my buddies.

[makezmuzic]

LOL! poor baby, did I hurt your white male pride? LOL! you want some cheese to go with that whine? your the one saying every white person is a white supremist....sounds like you are the racist to me.

learn to cope buddy. white male supremacy is OVER! get over it.

[TheSharpenedPen]

Learn to cope with forced gender and racial discrimination? No, I will never learn to cope with quotas, and you'll never learn how damaging they can be to a society until it's much too late. I never said that every white person is a white supremacist - that's what black nationalists like yourself claim. It's too bad that people like yourself hold the world back with your pettiness and anger, replacing an opportunity for true equality with vengeance mentality.

[bloodwolfshadow]

Listen to SharpenedPen, he is right on the mark!

[TheSharpenedPen]

I don't understand why universities and colleges need to even consider the race of the applicant, yet the application system demands that you check off a box indicating your race. Why not assign a student a #, (which they all do) and attach a GPA to it and then decide? What's racist about that?

To me at least, it's racist to have scholarships and programs of entry and seats reserved for blacks, women and indians only. You won't see any white male scholarships, so why is the reverse okay?

[makezmuzic]

Read a history book. Then you might understand. LOL or not. Depends on if you want to understand or not.

[Fawks121]

Once again white people talking about "the individual with the best..." yeah, that would be great in an ideal world. Fact is, it isn't. Stop thinking about racism on individual terms. That is such a privilege to be white...to think of yourself as an individual. Meanwhile, all middle easterns are attacked for what a few chose to do. Just because one white person doesn't get into college, hell raises. Shit, black people have had to deal with that for years....sucks, doesn't it.

[benattis]

1. Being offended is an emotion, it says nothing about reality and truth (or are we discussing science fiction here?)

2. I did not trivialized suffering blacks, claiming I did is called LYING (or in pc-language reframing)

[benattis]

3 I am talking about what apartheid WAS, not what it caused. So the difference is not in what it was but that it caused worse suffering. I never implied it didnt though so you are just being dishonest. Are u proud over your dishonesty?

[benattis]

Apartheid = Giving special priviligies and laws to suit minority

Affirmitive Action = Giving special privilieges and laws to suit minority

The difference between them? AA punish white people for their skin color, Apartheid punished black people for theirs.

[benattis]

Affirmitive action? Thats just a new pc-word for racism, so anyone for Affirmitive action is actually pro-racism. They are saying: Apartheid is ok, just not when the majority in the country is black.

[africanbully31]

yo man, let me get tha affirm-ative action tho.

[lhrgarcia011]

The issue of being "color-blind" in college admissions is thus far very appropriate, but being color-blind is also trying to be blind of the fact that minorities are being even more challenged than those in middle-class. So therefore, this may be an issue of class, hence we can attribute skin color...because in the long run Suburbia in America is predominately white [note the word predominately--not everyone, just the majority].  (part 3)

[lhrgarcia011]

Not everyone can afford programs of enrichment for SATs, and those who do not need them are adequately prepared by their schools. Mot all students attend privileged schools with an ample and suitable amount of resources. Most minority students attend schools with fewer resources, and therefore fewer opportunities to shine. (part 2)

[lhrgarcia011]

Not everyone can afford programs of enrichment for SATs, and those who do not need them are adequately prepared by their schools. Mot all students attend privileged schools with an ample and suitable amount of resources. Most minority students attend schools with fewer resources, and therefore fewer opportunities to shine. (part 2)

[lhrgarcia011]

In the State of CA minorities overpopulate Caucasians. Why it then that Latinos and Blacks only make less than 15% of the UC populations, while Asians and Whites share about a 30-40%, respectively. The ideology of meritocracy, that success will be achieved thru talent and effort is respectable, but who are really succeeding? Middle and upper class citizens; because facets like the SATs are enriching those members of society (the words are as pompous to the point of bewilderment). (part 1)

[kelark]

Well if my brother in law has the charcteristics needed for a particular job and I am willing to put my reputation on the line to reccomend him then that is good policy for a company. It helps to remove the uncertainty associated with hiring. AA is blind to ability or even predicted ability rather it uses non predictive criteria to acheive a goal. Even the goal is bogus because the pigmnnet based rather the performanve based.

[TheGrammarian]

I agree. Nice alliteration there with the "P"s also. ;)

[Jayfive67]

I feel oppressed because of Affirmative Action because it gives preferences to mostly unqualified minorities and women who are only hired because of their race and sex, and that is just wrong. If someone no matter what their color is hired for a job and they aren't qualified to do that job, that is unfair to someone who busted their butt to get qualified and is not hired because they don't bring diversity to an organization. Martin Luther King, Jr wouldn't have favored Affirmative Action.

[TheGrammarian]

I completely agree.

[TheGrammarian]

I completely agree. Check out my video response up there for my full opinion. ;)

[luckyvet]

Affirmative action = reverse discrimination, those who are for it are no better than those with KKK beliefs.

Giving 1 rights @ the expense of others = slavery.

Believing women will willingly run, found, and expand 51% of our companies one day defies nature, by the very "free" choices women make every day.

[tallhunter1]

I personaly think that it is bull shit. I dont feel one person should get a job because of there race. "Movie Quote American History X" You do your best, you get the job, The BEST man for the job "or woman." Like in the movie the two jobs went to two black men, not because of there test scores, but because they were black. While two other people got higher test scores. It is not fair for ANYONE this Affirmative Action. Sure there may be some good parts to it, but in the end it hurts everyone.

[tallhunter1]

If you strongly disagree, i will feel the need to make a vid. (Oh and GREAT song for THIS vid)

[TheGrammarian]

Watch my reply. ;)

And I'd <i>love</i> for you to make a vid about it.

[tallhunter1]

Watch your reply? Are you going to make a vid response to this vid? I will try to have the vid up within 24 hours.

[TheGrammarian]

It's right above there! It's the purple one with shitty quality. The second reply. =)

[TheGrammarian]

Haha. Indeed.

[rowsdowersavesus]

I'd say that Bush is actually quite learned and intelligent. When he first ran for congress in the 1980s, he ran as an educated Harvard man, and lost to a "man of the people" who talked like an ignorant hick. He learned his lesson.

I say since the link between formal education and learning is so strong, it should be funded and granted to all.

[rowsdowersavesus]

I'd say it's actually quite easy to interrupt the learning process. Many drugs can slow or even stop this, as can any brain injury. You're right, on some level we always learn while we live, but that learning can easily be impeded by non-natural means.

[rowsdowersavesus]

Do we need a "right to life"? We live anyway.

I think of education as essential to learning. They go hand in hand.

[ssjbriguy]

Diversity quotas are based on a fallacious assumption. People of different race/color/gender/etc. don't necessarily think/act in significantly different ways.

[TheGrammarian]

Good point.

[rowsdowersavesus]

Why not? We have an intrinsic need to drink clean water, and that is considered a natural right. It is entitled to people because without it, they cannot live. Likewise, we have an intrinsic need to learn. If we do not learn, we will almost certainly die due to something that could have been prevented with education. Obviously education is not as essential as water, but since it is essential, I believe it is an entitlement.

[kelark]

By all means go get educated. However I think that the point is that in this country when you say you have a right most people mean they are entitled. By entitled they mean that they are free to write laws that allow them to reach into someone elses pocket and take their money to excersise their right. That is so wrong.

[rowsdowersavesus]

Well, what makes a natural right "natural"?

[rowsdowersavesus]

If you're going to have rights for anyone on anything, why not access to education?

[TheGrammarian]

I'm excited.

[rowsdowersavesus]

I wasn't trying to argue for it being a right, I was simply asking why you don't think it is.

[rowsdowersavesus]

Why not?

[rowsdowersavesus]

Was this me that you were addressing? I made a 2 parter here, in support of partial affirmative action. Watch!

[Larryk12308]

To make AA work for me as a light skinned person I'd have 2 move 2 China! Wait, they have NO rights over there

Never mind! ; ) BTW:5 stars 4 grammerian

[TheGrammarian]

Thanks, LarryK12308! =)

[lirpa69]

Interesting. Although I might agree with you on the right to work, I think a good, free, equivalent education for everyone can only benefit society.

I'll have to give your logic some more thought!

[lirpa69]

I know the game of semantics quite well. You made the sweeping assumption about my statement. But ok. Just to remove any confusion here...and it seems silly to have to spell this out for some people: I do not believe all white men are privileged. There, are you happy? =P

Is there a short version of your name I can use??

[lirpa69]

Randy and Azzy have great video responses addressing this. Please share your views and comments there too, I am interested to hear them.

[lirpa69]

I see a contradiction in your logic on Abolition vs that of AA. You agree that abolishing slavery was a positive thing. So, without programs like AA, what next? Racism magically disappears and blacks gain equal footing in universities and the workplace?

Same goes for women's suffrage.

[lirpa69]

Here is a comment you made in another video:

"It wasn't black people who got abolition pushed in the 19th century, but whites.

When we realize that people like us are causing harm to others, we become the most valuable tool to putting a stop to it."

[lirpa69]

Hi HanifXHier (how do you pronounce that???). I used the word "probably" for this reason. Of course some white men are not as privileged as others. I try very hard not to speak in absolutes like that. In general though, whites are still more privileged than blacks many times over.

[visitor4400]

I think the question is whether one is for or against racial and sex quotas? I think that everyone who meets the standards of school, job, or friendship should be brought on board without cheapening everyone else's achievements by artificial means. AA hurts everyone.

[TheGrammarian]

Agreed, as well.

[33Bobby33]

My natural inclination is to oppose AA based on the fact that it is discrimination. I prefer that everyone be treated equally with their success or failure based on their individual abilities and not sex or skin color. But I do find it interesting that the majority, the largest group in the US (females) have managed to classify themselves as a minority. What does one have to do to qualify as a minority?

[TheGrammarian]

I completely agree! Reverse discrimination is discrimination nonetheless.

I'm not exactly sure what you have to do to become a minority. Maybe something about being oppressed or something. Not sure. =)

Maybe <i>minority</i> isn't the best word for it. Good point.

[visitor4400]

There is no one that is not 'oppressed' by someone else.

It is not reverse discrimination. That implies an acceptable standard of some type. Discrimination is discrimination.

[TheGrammarian]

. . . with friction . . . bitch.

[TheGrammarian]

Unless it's you! You're going down, Hani!

[TheGrammarian]

Prudence and Grammatica have been butting heads lately. I've got my money on Grammatica though, she's pretty powerful when pissed. You know how gods are: always want it their way, bitches!

[TheGrammarian]

And who ever shall I wrestle *cough* errr fight with?

[rowsdowersavesus]

Can I film the fight?

[TheGrammarian]

. . . with friction.

[TheGrammarian]

Gram would like to see Row and Han fight next. . . topless.

[rowsdowersavesus]

Ladies, ladies! (Lirpa and Gram) stop fighting!

I'll try to get a response video in a day or so.

[TheGrammarian]

Sweetness! A video response would be awesome! Thanks, Row.

[TheGrammarian]

No thanks needed! I love facilitating discussion. I was playing devil's advocate for a while back there. It was fun.

[TheGrammarian]

=)

That sounds wonderful! Isn't it brilliant to have intellectual debates with people without getting emotionally involved? I mean to say that I enjoy it when I can really say "agree to disagree" with someone and not have there be hurt feelings. It feels liberating.

[TheGrammarian]

Right, well we're just arguing anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence so it's all kind of irrelevant without research. And I'm not even sure how they'd do that kind of research. In any case, I really appreciate your participation in the discussion. =)

[TheGrammarian]

I also tend to think that many people end up using Affirmative Action as a crutch. They don't push themselves to be the "best applicant" because they don't have to be. Do you think this could possibly keep the oppressed oppressed? Or by getting in or getting the job, they will eventually kick the crutch?

[rowsdowersavesus]

Do you have any evidence that this ever happens?

[TheGrammarian]

Like I said, just anecdotal. Knowing someone, who knew someone, who knew someone bullshit. Nothing real.

[TheGrammarian]

But does Affirmative Action encourage individuals to go to college or apply for the job for the right reason? It seems like a hand out to those who are not capable of becoming the "best applicant."

[jennaow]

loooove the viddd.. and love the song?? who is it by exactly???

i support affirmative actions myself!! keep up the great work!!

[TheGrammarian]

This is "Free Ride" by The Edgar Winter Group.

Glad you liked the video. =)

[lirpa69]

You have got to be kidding me paintballaddict76, that is absolutely NOT what AA is. LOL

[nadiaTeeze]

I don't want to get a job because I'm a women. I want to get the job because I am the most qualified applicant for the job. Just because a groupism mentality might be in my favor in no way makes it correct. I wouldn't have agreed with nazis in WW2 if my hair was blonde and eyes blue. I am a woman who disagrees with affirmative action.

[TheGrammarian]

Excellent! I, too, would feel that the job meant less if I was hired solely on the basis of my gender or skin color. I think Affirmative Action has brought up an attitude of entitlement or "I deserve this." When it comes down to it, I think it's still discrimination.

[nadiaTeeze]

discrimination seems to be a pendlum. If I approve of it swinging this way, what right do I have to be upset when it goes the other way? It is the physics of it after all. How anyone can support state sponsered discrimination astounds me. If they flipped it would they still support it? Women not getting jobs they are most qualified for because a bit of genetic coding that affects their sexual organs?

[nadiaTeeze]

In fact being supportive of AA really seems to say that one believes women and other minorities are incapable of being equal in education and experience as non minorities. This simply is not true.

[TheGrammarian]

I totally agree, nadiaTeeze. Support for Affirmative Action seems to imply that the minority and women are inept in defending themselves. I find that it runs a real fine line between benevolent sexism and what they call Affirmative Action.

[TheGrammarian]

I will have to look up the numbers, (which I'm sure will be a pain in the ass), but I didn't think it came down to saving 5 seats. I was under the impression (or I was told, rather) that universities use a score card for applicants. Race gives extra "points" to candidates just as S.A.T. scores, essays, and experience do. But I could be wrong.

[lirpa69]

Research is always good!

[lirpa69]

Exactly. I think a time will come when AA will be outmoded and unneeded. We're not there yet, like I said before.

[TheGrammarian]

So, Affirmative Action does harbor reverse discrimination, then?

[msginca]

You must be kidding!!! Women shouldn't be allowed into SCHOOL, grade school, high school. College ... NOTHING. They should be taught from birth not to speak unless spoken to, to be obedient, compliant, and appreciative at all times. Their evolutionary function is to be sexy and drop babies, that's it! ... you don't need an IQ above negative 8 for that! I could go on, but I think you (along with everyone else) already knows the obvious.

[TheGrammarian]

Thanks for the irony, MSG.

[msginca]

It's funny for a minute or 2, until you realize that there are ACTUALLY guys out there like that.

[TheGrammarian]

Yep. Many of them, actually.

[lirpa69]

Without the quotas, we'd have abysmal figures for employment and education. My feeling is that as things equalize, we'll have less of a need for AA. We're not there yet. When someone starts complaining about AA, I notice they also tend to make other racist comments. Sadly, racism is still strong in the south. =(

[TheGrammarian]

But doesn't Affirmative Action seem to harbor reverse discrimination?

[lirpa69]

Well, like I said above (or below, lol) that's actually what it boils down to, IMO. I don't see it as a bad thing though.

[TheGrammarian]

Reverse discrimination is still discrimination. Isn't that what Affirmative Action is combating?

[lirpa69]

Yes, AA combats discrimination against minorities.

[TheGrammarian]

But in combating discrimination against minorities, it is harboring discrimination against the majority. Discrimination is wrong in either case.

[lirpa69]

Hundreds of years of slavery and oppression is wrong too. Which is more wrong?

[TheGrammarian]

So, Affirmative Action is the lesser of two evils? One being oppression and the other being oppression?

[lirpa69]

Uhh, that's not exactly the definition of oppression...I'm so surprised to see this stance from someone who claims to be a feminist. =)

[TheGrammarian]

Fighting discrimination with discrimination is something a feminist would be against. Also, getting a job based on gender would be something a feminist would be against. Looking at people's race before merit would be something a feminist would be against. And bringing in the fact that I'm a feminist is an ad hominem argument.

[lirpa69]

Implying that I am a racist is ad hominem. Personally, I'd hate to see where we'd be without AA right now. When you think of a viable alternative, I would love to hear it. Silly me, I though a feminist was someone who knows that you can't combat the ugliness of reality with idealism or false altruism.

[TheGrammarian]

I didn't imply that you are a racist. I implied that your argument sounded racist based on the content of that argument. It had nothing to do with you; therefore, it is not an ad hominem attack.

And I'm not sure what kind of feminist I'd be if I didn't take issue with seeing one's gender above all else or putting another gender down because of entitlement. Patriarchy is wrong, yes, but I would be just as vehemently opposed to matriarchy, should it arise. I'm for equality, myself.

[lirpa69]

Well, you asked for people's opinions, and you have mine.

[nadiaTeeze]

viable alternative- education. The problem here is that we still think that judging people based on a group similarity is ok. Really just a bit of math education (proofs really) will teach you the absurdity of such thought processes. If B than A does not mean if A than B. If women or other minorities want jobs they have to apply themselves to be the best applicant.

[lirpa69]

I stated that it is probably easier for a WASPy male to find another school. You stated simply "That sounds racist." I asked, "How so?", to which you replied that combating discrimination with discrimination is wrong, and that I am combating racism with "racism exists". "How ironic" of me. I said "if you say so"... This is when I said "hundreds of years of oppression is wrong too."

[lirpa69]

Personally, I think throwing down the race card, no matter which side you're on, is a good way to stifle discussion, not encourage it. Just my .02.

[lirpa69]

Wow, did YouTube gobble up a whole thread last night or something? Forgive me if I'm making an assumption, but it looks like some comments were removed?

[TheGrammarian]

<B>No comments were removed.</B>

YouTube is working on changing a few features, one being the threading of comments. No, Lirpa, I didn't remove any comments. Nor <i>would</i> I. This is also why I haven't commented on many comments and the video responses.

[lirpa69]

Shew! That's good to know. I could have sworn all these comments were here this morning. Oh well! Thanks for the explanation.

[TheGrammarian]

Believe me. The whole issue has been completely maddening! I'm going crazy over here. There were so many that I wanted to respond to that I can no longer find. Stupid YT.

[randyhelzerman]

Some comments disappeared off of one of my videos yesterday, but they were back on today. I think all of this "scheduled maintainence" which youtube is doing is causing a disturbance in the force.

[TheGrammarian]

Mine is all screwed up. I'm thoroughly irritated at YT right now. I bring up a video for discussion, and they fuck up the comment section that same day. I can't even see everyone's comments, only a select few.

[lirpa69]

Funny, I was <i>just</i> talking about this with a friend yesterday. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that affirmative action is equal to preferential treatment. Personally, my views have changed on this issue as I've matured. Without AA, most minorities wouldn't even have a shot. That's all it really does, is give them the opportunity to compete in the first place. It doesn't give them preferential treatment.

[TheGrammarian]

But doesn't it take away the opportunity for others who aren't minorities? If a college can accept only X amount of students, and five points can determine whether you get accepted or not, and your race is a factor of say, 20 points, what about the kid who maybe deserved to be there based on merit rather than race? His application is thrown out.

[lirpa69]

I can see how it can be construed as reverse discrimination. I think that, sometimes the most effective (or rapid) solution to a problem is simply to reverse it. Yes, it's discrimination in the other direction. However, my guess is that the WASPy male is much more likely to find another slot in a similar school.

[TheGrammarian]

That sounds racist.

[lirpa69]

How so?

[TheGrammarian]

The white boy will more or less find another school to go to? That sounds very racist.

[lirpa69]

If you say so. Unfortunately racism exists, and the reality is that he is likely to have an easier time. (In my opinion.)

[TheGrammarian]

You're combating,<i> "That sounds racist" </i> with <i>"Unfortunately racism exists?"</i> in an argument about Affirmative Action? This is all too ironic.

[lirpa69]

Ironic, indeed. I always try to see things from both points of view. I guess my question to you is, do you have a better solution?

[TheGrammarian]

I do not have a better solution, no. But I'm not sure that Affirmative Action is the best way to make this right. Being a proponent for or against doesn't mean I have to come up with an answer.

[lirpa69]

I'm not sure it is either, but I support it. I understand your complaints about AA, but without a logical alternative, I don't know how else to stop the racism and ignorance. It does accomplish what it is intended to do, give people opportunities who otherwise would not hae them.

[TheGrammarian]

Perhaps affirmative action is only appeasement, a knee-jerk reaction to compensate for discrimination?

[bananer54]

I'm definitely agaisnt it. To quote an article I read a while ago, "Real diversity is achieved through a myriad of ideas", not just a bunch of people who look different.

[TheGrammarian]

But what if the ideas of minorities fall on self-imposed deft ears? How do we know that everyone's voice will be heard?

[bananer54]

If somebody is being discriminated against, they should take it upon themselves to be strong and be heard. I don't think that discrimination is that widespread nowadays though.

[TheGrammarian]

Agreed. Honestly, I don't think we'll ever figure out which one is feeding which.

[TheGrammarian]

You think by giving businesses tax breaks, our government is doing all they can to ensure equal opportunity? Is there more they can do?

[TheGrammarian]

I'm not sure if they're born discouraged, but our society does seem to discourage individuals of minorities from pursuing education. I think you've definitely got an interesting point linking role models to entertainment figures and the lack thereof. I am particularly thinking of African American rappers. When this is what you grow up with, it's hard to have high expectations, but this is a slippery slope. And which came first? Is media mirroring society? Or is society mirroring media?

[TheGrammarian]

So true about minorities becoming discouraged to go to college before leaving high school. A lot of people don't even know the advantages they have before they make the decision to go to college or not.

[TheGrammarian]

<i>Touché.</i> Can't really argue with an anarchist about government policy, now can you? ;)

[TheGrammarian]

Most definitions link Affirmative Action to women and minorities. But if we chucked that and only used Affirmative Action for socio-economic status, is this a function our government can/should perform? Rules and regulations? And what about quotas? Who's to say if the requirements are fulfilled if they aren't tracked? And is tracking not another form of drawing the lines between races, genders, or socio-economic status?