Hi there prwilli75, thanks for the awesome points, seriously. I find that dealing deductively alone on a Scriptural topic never seems to breed faith, without which it is impossible to please God (Heb 6:11). So while I am going to answer each of your points with Scripture (in several posts below), it will still be my interpretation of it, right? So before I get heady, let me first tell you unscriptedly what my heart says.
@PinCodes1 What about the OT Law was lead by the heart?? It was a law and it remains one to this day.
The poor struggle to meet it and the rich miss out on blessings that God wants to give them because they meet their obligation by paying 10%. They then are not being lead by faith they are being lead by a law.
@prwilli75 I said we wouldn't solve this, so I'll only answer this final question: Scripture says tithing is only a start. Malachi mentions tithes AND offerings, which are whatever you want to give above the 10. It was a heart matter in the OT & still today, which I don't think you are grasping. When I was poor there was no struggle to tithe because 10% of 0 is 0! I know Christians who give only the 10 but know so many more who say if a waiter gets 15% then why should God only get 10? Take care!
Start with Malachi 3:7 - God is talking about His ordinances regarding tithes and offerings. Those ordinances are in Numbers 18, which, by the way, no one is following today. Then see Hebrews 7:5,12,18. Verse 18 tells us that the command, Numbers 18 (all laws regarding the Levitical priesthood) have been DISANNULLED. It is perfectly clear that tithing was disannulled.
You can be led by the law, OR you can be Spirit led. I am Spirit led.
1) "I don't have to tithe, I get to." 2) "I'm gonna tithe not because its logical but with faith according to what God told his kids in Mal 3." 3) "So what does God deserve? My 10%, you gotta be kidding me."
"TITHING IS LEVITICAL LAW. JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW AT CALVARY."
All pro-tithers hang their hat on the Malachi 3 passage. Malachi was a minor PROPHET and he taught on the LAW of tithing, and Jesus said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the LAW or the PROPHETS"...
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matt. 5:17 ("abolish" v. "formally put an end to a system, practice or institution; get rid of, stop, etc.) So, Jesus didn't come to get rid of, stop or put an end to this practice and law of tithing.
- achieve something: to do what is necessary to bring about or achieve something expected, desired, or promised
Jesus fulfilled the whole law. This is why we do not have the blood sacrifices, priests do not have to wear all the robes and the OT temple articles are not needed any more.
Jesus lives in mens heart in the New Covenant. We as individuals are the royal priesthood. I alone stand before God and Jesus is the mediator.
"YOU WILLINGLY POINT OUT THE TITHE IN MALACHI BUT YOU FAIL TO SAY WHAT IT WAS USED FOR. IF YOU WERE GOING TO USE LEVITICAL TITHING...10% TO THE LEVITE, 90% WENT TO THE STOREHOUSE/POOR/NEEDS, 10% TO THE HIGH PRIEST."
We are pastors and that sums up our church's budget allotments pretty much. All our staff works for stipends including us but my husband gave up his pay check entirely for us to get into our own building and on our feet.
@PinCodes1 Stipends: usually lower than what would be expected as a permanent salary for similar work.
But the house, car(s), clothing and food is paid for out of church funds.
Paul writes:
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;
Not that pastors who are paid are wrong. Paul said the worker was worth his wages. (Luke 10:17) And in 1 Tim 5:17 he says that leaders who govern the affairs of the church are due honor and then again says, "the worker is due his wages." So I have no problem with paid staff and hope one day I can compensate my staff for their years of free service so that their children might be better provided for.
The Greek word for "honor," as used in verse 17 and in the rest of the New Testament, does NOT mean "salary" or "wage." As just mentioned, the noun in 5:17 is timees (Strong’s 5092). It occurs 38 times in the KJV New Testament: 28 times as "honor," 8 times as "price," once as "sum," and once as "precious," but NEVER as "wage." When used as "price," it does not mean "wage" or "salary," but "value.
If you’re asking about a payment in monetary terms then yes, Jesus & his disciples paid money to the Temple. It was called the Disdrachma or Temple tax. Listen carefully to why Jesus said he paid it. Matt. 17: 24After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?" 25"YES, HE DOES," he replied. Jesus then tells him to go fishing and the money is in the fish' mouth.
In Luke 20:19-26, where Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar and TO GOD WHAT IS GOD’S can be given different meaning depending on your interpretation: But for me I think: Whatever percent government demands of your income (TAX) give it and whatever percent the church demands of your income (TITHE) give it to them. We as Christians know that we do not use logic or common sense to interprete the word of God. We pray that the Spirit of God will always guide us.
Where does God demand in the NT that tithes are now money and were to be given every paycheck on the gross income??
OT scripture will not work for this example. The veil was rent at Calvary and we are free from the weight of the laws demands. We are lead by the Spirit as individuals to grow and walk with him. If rules get implemented again then we are placing ourselves under the law. This brings a curse. Gal 3:10
Jesus teaches not to neglect the tithe in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42. The focus of that passage is actually to admonish the religious leaders: "For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done WITHOUT NEGLECTING THE OTHERS." So, he is saying to honor other weighty things, but to not neglect the tithe.
ANOTHER VALID ARGUMENT: "THE OLD TESTAMENT TITHES WERE FOODS AND GRAINS, NOT MONEY AT ALL."
Malachi lived in a bartering society (he wrote about tithing around 440ish BC) and coins/currency aren't mentioned in the Bible until after Ezra's time (Neh. 7:71 - 440ish too so we can't know for sure). Metals were weighed before that in Jewish history but there was no coin currency, so of course Malachi's tithe laws wouldn't mandate currency/money.
The first recorded account of official minting of Jewish money was under Antiochus VII who gave Simon Maccabees the permission to produce a coin with his own mark on it. 1 Maccabees. 15:6 140 B.C. That was 300 years after Malachi & so of course during his day, food was currency.
So after all this, I come back around to my top three heart answers. Not that the evidence in Scripture isn't enough for me, but whatever I do for God I do for love and not duty anyway. It's relationship, not religion.
If I you still don't feel I have adequately answered the question about tithing making the cut for the New Covenant, then I would just say... well, I can't prove that Jesus bathed, but I trust He did. If not because Mary made him, then due to ceremonial laws that I’m sure he observed as a good Jewish boy. I’ve enjoyed studying this topic more today, and so I thank you for the opportunity! Take care.
@prwilli75 Let's do this...I went to the site (bookmarked it too, thx). Oddly enough, many of the verses are ones I use to support tithing. I doubt, therefore, that we will ever get to the end of this. That's why I started with the "heart statements." Going toe to toe on the site would be like asking you to watch the entire PIN tithing series (which you can, but it sounds like you've settled in). My heart simply can't not tithe. As a pastor, I long to tithe the 90 and live on the 10! Take care!
@prwilli75 I grew up a tither and understood it as it was given to me.
My fault came when I did not study out completely what was told to me.
When I did start to study it was not coming together as well as it was packaged.
I believe that my new understanding has lead me to more faith because its not a "no-brainer" situation any longer. I allow myself to be lead to give out of my heart and not according to a set percentage.
you are truly in bonadage! i feel for you sister. I believe in free will giving and am have total freedom.
evilemounicornXDXP 9 months ago
Another one who failed to study the Book of Malachi in it's proper context!
YhwhKhai 1 year ago
Hi there prwilli75, thanks for the awesome points, seriously. I find that dealing deductively alone on a Scriptural topic never seems to breed faith, without which it is impossible to please God (Heb 6:11). So while I am going to answer each of your points with Scripture (in several posts below), it will still be my interpretation of it, right? So before I get heady, let me first tell you unscriptedly what my heart says.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
Comment removed
prwilli75 1 year ago
Comment removed
prwilli75 1 year ago
@PinCodes1 What about the OT Law was lead by the heart?? It was a law and it remains one to this day.
The poor struggle to meet it and the rich miss out on blessings that God wants to give them because they meet their obligation by paying 10%. They then are not being lead by faith they are being lead by a law.
prwilli75 1 year ago
@prwilli75 I said we wouldn't solve this, so I'll only answer this final question: Scripture says tithing is only a start. Malachi mentions tithes AND offerings, which are whatever you want to give above the 10. It was a heart matter in the OT & still today, which I don't think you are grasping. When I was poor there was no struggle to tithe because 10% of 0 is 0! I know Christians who give only the 10 but know so many more who say if a waiter gets 15% then why should God only get 10? Take care!
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@PinCodes1
Start with Malachi 3:7 - God is talking about His ordinances regarding tithes and offerings. Those ordinances are in Numbers 18, which, by the way, no one is following today. Then see Hebrews 7:5,12,18. Verse 18 tells us that the command, Numbers 18 (all laws regarding the Levitical priesthood) have been DISANNULLED. It is perfectly clear that tithing was disannulled.
You can be led by the law, OR you can be Spirit led. I am Spirit led.
thyran1992 1 year ago
1) "I don't have to tithe, I get to." 2) "I'm gonna tithe not because its logical but with faith according to what God told his kids in Mal 3." 3) "So what does God deserve? My 10%, you gotta be kidding me."
"TITHING IS LEVITICAL LAW. JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW AT CALVARY."
All pro-tithers hang their hat on the Malachi 3 passage. Malachi was a minor PROPHET and he taught on the LAW of tithing, and Jesus said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the LAW or the PROPHETS"...
PinCodes1 1 year ago
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matt. 5:17 ("abolish" v. "formally put an end to a system, practice or institution; get rid of, stop, etc.) So, Jesus didn't come to get rid of, stop or put an end to this practice and law of tithing.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@PinCodes1 Fulfill definition:
- achieve something: to do what is necessary to bring about or achieve something expected, desired, or promised
Jesus fulfilled the whole law. This is why we do not have the blood sacrifices, priests do not have to wear all the robes and the OT temple articles are not needed any more.
Jesus lives in mens heart in the New Covenant. We as individuals are the royal priesthood. I alone stand before God and Jesus is the mediator.
prwilli75 1 year ago
"YOU WILLINGLY POINT OUT THE TITHE IN MALACHI BUT YOU FAIL TO SAY WHAT IT WAS USED FOR. IF YOU WERE GOING TO USE LEVITICAL TITHING...10% TO THE LEVITE, 90% WENT TO THE STOREHOUSE/POOR/NEEDS, 10% TO THE HIGH PRIEST."
We are pastors and that sums up our church's budget allotments pretty much. All our staff works for stipends including us but my husband gave up his pay check entirely for us to get into our own building and on our feet.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@PinCodes1 Stipends: usually lower than what would be expected as a permanent salary for similar work.
But the house, car(s), clothing and food is paid for out of church funds.
Paul writes:
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;
prwilli75 1 year ago
Not that pastors who are paid are wrong. Paul said the worker was worth his wages. (Luke 10:17) And in 1 Tim 5:17 he says that leaders who govern the affairs of the church are due honor and then again says, "the worker is due his wages." So I have no problem with paid staff and hope one day I can compensate my staff for their years of free service so that their children might be better provided for.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@PinCodes1 Honor is the correct translation.
The Greek word for "honor," as used in verse 17 and in the rest of the New Testament, does NOT mean "salary" or "wage." As just mentioned, the noun in 5:17 is timees (Strong’s 5092). It occurs 38 times in the KJV New Testament: 28 times as "honor," 8 times as "price," once as "sum," and once as "precious," but NEVER as "wage." When used as "price," it does not mean "wage" or "salary," but "value.
prwilli75 1 year ago
DID JESUS PAY TITHES?
If you’re asking about a payment in monetary terms then yes, Jesus & his disciples paid money to the Temple. It was called the Disdrachma or Temple tax. Listen carefully to why Jesus said he paid it. Matt. 17: 24After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?" 25"YES, HE DOES," he replied. Jesus then tells him to go fishing and the money is in the fish' mouth.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@PinCodes1 The temple tax is not a OT Holy tithe.
A Holy Tithe is food grown only in Israel.
prwilli75 1 year ago
Likewise:
In Luke 20:19-26, where Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar and TO GOD WHAT IS GOD’S can be given different meaning depending on your interpretation: But for me I think: Whatever percent government demands of your income (TAX) give it and whatever percent the church demands of your income (TITHE) give it to them. We as Christians know that we do not use logic or common sense to interprete the word of God. We pray that the Spirit of God will always guide us.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@PinCodes1 the church demands?? Really Acts 20:34
Where does God demand in the NT that tithes are now money and were to be given every paycheck on the gross income??
OT scripture will not work for this example. The veil was rent at Calvary and we are free from the weight of the laws demands. We are lead by the Spirit as individuals to grow and walk with him. If rules get implemented again then we are placing ourselves under the law. This brings a curse. Gal 3:10
prwilli75 1 year ago
Jesus teaches not to neglect the tithe in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42. The focus of that passage is actually to admonish the religious leaders: "For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done WITHOUT NEGLECTING THE OTHERS." So, he is saying to honor other weighty things, but to not neglect the tithe.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
ANOTHER VALID ARGUMENT: "THE OLD TESTAMENT TITHES WERE FOODS AND GRAINS, NOT MONEY AT ALL."
Malachi lived in a bartering society (he wrote about tithing around 440ish BC) and coins/currency aren't mentioned in the Bible until after Ezra's time (Neh. 7:71 - 440ish too so we can't know for sure). Metals were weighed before that in Jewish history but there was no coin currency, so of course Malachi's tithe laws wouldn't mandate currency/money.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@PinCodes1
According to the International Bible Encyclopedia, the days of mere bartering ended before the days of Abraham.
The tithing law itself proves they had both money and a marketing system for buying and selling their crops and animals (Deuteronomy 14:24-26).
The Old Testament also had a set standard both prior to the law and during the law. Genesis:23:16.
A MONEY OFFERING TO BE USED FOR THE SERVICE OF THE TABERNACLE - Exodus 30:14-16,
To say they didn't use money is false.
thyran1992 1 year ago
The first recorded account of official minting of Jewish money was under Antiochus VII who gave Simon Maccabees the permission to produce a coin with his own mark on it. 1 Maccabees. 15:6 140 B.C. That was 300 years after Malachi & so of course during his day, food was currency.
So after all this, I come back around to my top three heart answers. Not that the evidence in Scripture isn't enough for me, but whatever I do for God I do for love and not duty anyway. It's relationship, not religion.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
If I you still don't feel I have adequately answered the question about tithing making the cut for the New Covenant, then I would just say... well, I can't prove that Jesus bathed, but I trust He did. If not because Mary made him, then due to ceremonial laws that I’m sure he observed as a good Jewish boy. I’ve enjoyed studying this topic more today, and so I thank you for the opportunity! Take care.
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@PinCodes1 You have brought up many great points and I do have answers to them.
Are you interested in going through them??
Thanks!!
prwilli75 1 year ago
@prwilli75 Let's do this...I went to the site (bookmarked it too, thx). Oddly enough, many of the verses are ones I use to support tithing. I doubt, therefore, that we will ever get to the end of this. That's why I started with the "heart statements." Going toe to toe on the site would be like asking you to watch the entire PIN tithing series (which you can, but it sounds like you've settled in). My heart simply can't not tithe. As a pastor, I long to tithe the 90 and live on the 10! Take care!
PinCodes1 1 year ago
@prwilli75 I grew up a tither and understood it as it was given to me.
My fault came when I did not study out completely what was told to me.
When I did start to study it was not coming together as well as it was packaged.
I believe that my new understanding has lead me to more faith because its not a "no-brainer" situation any longer. I allow myself to be lead to give out of my heart and not according to a set percentage.
prwilli75 1 year ago
Tithing is Levitical law. Jesus fulfilled the law at Calvary.
You willingly point out the tithe in Malachi but you fail to say what it was used for.
If you were going to use Levitical tithing then do it as the Levites did.
10% of the full tithe of Israel went to the Levites
90% went to the storehouse for the poor and such.
10% of the tithe that the Levites received went to the high priest.
No priests in Israel were allowed to have land or businesses
Did Jesus pay tithes??
prwilli75 1 year ago
New Testament Store House = Pastor's Wallet!
TithingStudy 1 year ago
Are you in support of tithing? is it mandatary ?
PAJIMOH2003 2 years ago
wonderfully thoughtfully professionally joyfully faithfully presented
Boots1956 2 years ago