here is the thing and i'm not trying to fight...but that word trinity or Τριάς is not in the greek text...so he better know he's greek lol and i can say this that the belief and wroship of the trinity goes back to babylon the worship of Baal, Ishtar, and Tammuz then the egyptians with osiris and isis and horus and the hindu trinity brahma,vishnu,and sheva. and the nicaea council adopted the trinity. again its not in the Greek text
Ahhh, some humility at 3:32. Now good a a definition at 8:22 - One Eternal God, what I have trouble with is "persons" distinct. The distinction I believe is a human one. For our understanding. When God created man, he had Jesus (logos) in mind.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I want to serve the One True and Living God in all humility and truth. Not straining at a gnat. God is the Judge. He knows the heart, and that's what counts the most of all!
@GiniaMarie1 I appreciate what you are being emphatic about. They didn't go into much detail of the ontological distinction between "being" and "person", so I'd like to ask you what it is you think they are saying when they use the word person.
In the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds, the word that we translate as "person" was in fact "persona". The word "persona" has nothing to do with individuality, and actually means "a role" when used as a noun.
@Lukecash12 Well now Likecash ........that would make a lot more sense then what I have in mind a "person" that is how I interpret God as roles. God has roles in which he manifests Himself. That is He is sovereign, God can manifest Himself in any 'role' he wishes. "a role" makes a great deal more sense to me. The role of the "son" does begin in time as we know it, however, as God sees time in eternity, the Son has always existed in God's mind, as the logos. Understand? That is
@GiniaMarie1 Actually, as spelled out by John's obvious response to Sirach, Philo, and the Wisdom of Solomon, Jesus is God's Logos (meaning a contingent expression of his personality, just like the Greek understanding of our verbal expression signifying and being contingent upon us). God's Logos was being interpreted out of Proverbs by Deuterocanonical books, and John set the record straight with the God inspired theology of John 1. The "son" has always existed as a contingent role scripturally.
@Lukecash12 yes sir ... this, is in my mind stating the same, for the most part. However, and forgive my ignorance,. what is the the contingency upon which the scriptural "role" hangs?
Your language is foreign to me. I must bone up on my theological vernacular, or perhaps you could restate this in layman's terms, please. Are you saying the logos in contingent upon God, being God ? I apologize for not comprehending your statement. Please clarify in laymen terms if possible.
@GiniaMarie1 Yes, some of the theological language can be encumbent in a short discussion like this. Here's a more accessible restatement: One's logos, according to the use of the Greek word, is one's verbal expression in a general sense. For something to be contingent upon another thing, is a kind of synonym for "symbiotic". Their existence is dependent upon one another, and in theology for something to be contingent doesn't merely have an ecological or evolutionary meaning.
@GiniaMarie1 Their very state of existence is dependent upon the other. Just as man must have a spirit, a fleshly abode, and a verbal expression of himself, in order to be considered a human by the writers of the New Testament, so must God have a logos and a pneumati (spirit) for His existence to conform with the scriptures He has given us.
We are not at all in a role to presume things about God according to our vain philosophy, but God Himself graciously made some things evident about himself.
@GiniaMarie1 If you would like to discuss with me how it is that God made His contingent qualities evident to us in the scriptures, feel free to PM me. The discussion would be better served through that medium, given that the topic is much too grand for a series of comments.
What I find in common with these men here is that when I place the Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek before the Oneness believers, they don't have a clue & even toss it off as if Moses, Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John were from New York! KNOW YOUR GREEK!!!
Humans tring to undestand Gods´s nature.......This kind of discussion take place since Jesus resurrecion...300 years later The trinity was the "official" doctrine about God's nature...iw onder what God thinks about his, his sons trying to define His nature..
@IsaacBG84 Nature/=/Identity. The "machinations" of His ultimate primacy are completely above our cognizant ability to define. However, in His scriptures He was explicit as to what His identity is.
@givingmantoo don't you mean suppose? I mean if we are going to strain and strive to be fully correct. Gimme a break, and get a dictionary. What I'd like to know is : Where is the Prince of Peace in all this?
@GiniaMarie1 If you don't know, and OBVIOUSLY you don't know, you better find out really quick. When He comes to save His people and take away the "church", you're going to be left behind. And being left behind means you have to go through the Tribulation Period. And that means absolutely No peace what so ever. Get with the program and ask the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob who He is and to save you too. He'll forgive you of your debt and look out for your Eternity state:)
@anifbim interesting what you assume! Jesus knows the hearts of all men, it's true, so be very careful how you mete out your judgement. Judgment will begin at the house of God.
the stupidity of these guys is not just their bad theology ....It's the fact they make the mistake of sitting down across the table from walter martin ....that alone shows true lack of wisdom .. The bibleclearly teaches when going to war and you're out gunned ..make peace with your adversary or have a plans,funds and materials before building a building ...oops
@zwreckless1 These men argued like true Champs. Not matter how much patience he had, No matter how he broke it down those nimwits just could not grasp the Truth. The scarey thing is, is that they are leading sheep astray. They are teaching not according to the Bible. If the Bible says Jesus and the Father are One, then they are one. He is I am. Alpha and Omega. The Visible Image of God. It is clear. But ppl want to understand everything from logic and it's not possible!!!!!
Ankersburg seems like such a nice , happy , funny guy..i wish there was more of this type of introspective ,honest discussion and insightful teaching going on these days ,,,Walter Martin will ever be missed .Never seen a nicer guy who could fight liike a badger and keep a smile and a twinkle in his eye as he calls a spade a spade
@faelismaegnus No, I will be in heaven praising God while many like you will be here still debating theology. How one can be saved without the Holy Ghost is beyond me?
@Strafete No one believes you can be saved without the Holy Ghost. Read Acts 10. First they heard the Word, then they believed and began to magnify God in languages unknown to them, THEN they were baptized.
FAITH comes by hearing and that by the Word of God. To as many as believed on His Word gave He power to become the Sons of God.
Pentecostalism is a man made religion riddled with heresies - false tongues - works for salvation - denial of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as separate Persons.
@faelismaegnus Yeah, but in Scripture, they confirmed their faith by speaking in tongues. How could anyone have heard without a preacher, and how could anyone preach except he has been sent? Otherwise, it is INIQUITY to preach without being sent (Holy Ghost filled w/ evidence - speaking in tongues.
@Strafete No they didn't. GOD confirmed their faith to the unbelievers. TONGUES is a sign to those who do not believe. In Acts 10 GOD confirmed the FAITH of the Gentiles to the original JEWISH CHRISTIANS.
@faelismaegnus Jesus said that signs (tongues, etc.) would them that believe! Yes to tongues are a sign TO the unbeliever per point confirming their faith after believing!
@Strafete You make no sense. Tongues are a sign given by God to the unbelievers THROUGH the believers - just like at Pentecost. In Acts 10 the Jewish Christians didn't believe God was also with the Gentiles until God sent the Gentile believers the same gift as a sign for the unbelief of the Jews regarding Gentile salvation through Christ. Paul makes it crystal clear in I Cor. 14 that NO UNKNOWN TONGUES are to be spoken in church aloud without an interpreter. Tongues are REAL HUMAN LANGUAGES.
Neither is it an academic issue. It is a spiritual one. Consider this: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)
You CAN NOT with your God-given conscience deny that the passage that I gave as an example, Phil 2:4-8, proves the pre-existence of the Son. You claim that it's the Spirit that tells you that you're doctrine is true. I recommend that you read 1 John 4:1. Not all spirits are from God.
The apostles never taught, preached, or wrote about a Trinity neither any of the OT prophet. Conversely, you and all of your fathers of the gospels do.
I do not deny the Father, neither the Son, nor the Holy Ghost. I do deny a 3-persons God, which the Bible never speaks of. Why do you think it was impossible for the OMNIPRESENT ONE to be God in heaven and a man on the earth at the same time?
Jesus was the true Yehovah Yirah, the ram that was provided for the whole world. God Himself became the sacrificial lamb, but He came as a man. Ask yourself, how many other men are apart of the godhead, NONE! Jesus was not God masquerading as a man; HE WAS A 100% MAN! as he walked the earth. Now, I am very sure that you do not understand this at all ...
BTW - 911Truth, any respectable scholar would agree that both Jesus and the disciples spoke Aramaic, undeniably! Certainly, there were Jewish interpeters (liaisons) on both sides. The same is truth today with the US military or state dept. in other foreign countries.
Listen! One can take Aramaic text to clarify errors that are written in Greek transations.
Please just stop. You're making yourself look stupid on youtube. Greek was the original language of the original texts. YES! the Apostles spoke Aramaic, but they also spoke greek. Tell me what language Pontius Pilate spoke, or the gentiles in Judea, or the Roman soldiers. They didn't all speak aramaic. Jesus spoke Aramaic and Greek.
Historically, there is just as much support for Aramiac being the primary language of the Bible as there is for Greek. It just depends on the region of the world the supporter's influenced.
It appears that you are playing the guessing game. For two things we know is true: Jesus spoke Aramaic and Pilate spoke Latin for certain. Of the 1st. apostle, it is very likely that Paul was the only one who was able to write in Greek. Funny, how you all report and omit history!
Ask yourself, how could fishermen, vocational workers, mostly, and uneducated men (Galileans) write in Greek to mostly an Aramiac/Hebrew speaking audience of the 1st. century? That is just Western Europe arrogance.
Now, let me make it clear, I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ! So it does not matter to me which of the two languages is primary.
First off. not all the christians in the 1st century were Jews. Secondly, if the Jews had nothing to do with Koine Greek, then would you kindly explain why the Septuagint (Old Testament written in Greek) was used by the Jews in the few centuries before Christ? Furthermore, an occupied nation is obviously going to learn new languages. For example, neither Artaxerxes nor nebuchadnezzer spoke hebrew to Daniel and Esther, but instead the Jews spoke the language of the babylonians and the persians.
Yes, the LXX was a greek translation of the OT, but it was done out of politics to appease wicked kings & priests seeking favor from the greeks. It was never really accepted by Israel faithful; neither was it ever the showcase like the Tanak. BTW - Hebrew and Aramaic have a common origin, not like Greek being totally foreign.
Even if the primary language of the Bible is Greek, how do you hold to some of the popular views of Scripture after investigating the proper conjugations and declensions of terms, being the Greek scholar that you are?
For example: give me your take on Rom10:9-10 after proper conjugation of the Greek verbs in the passage. Expand on the difference between confess and profess, and why v. 9 is written in the active vs. v. 10 being written in the passive voice.
I'm not a greek scholar. I never professed to be one. If you're refering to the message I sent you, part of it is an extract from a book which defends the pre-existence of Christ. But that's not the point. the point is you're attacking the trinity without any biblical evidence to back yourself up. I've shown you my evidence through the message I've sent you regarding Paul's letter to the Philippians, and from the extract regarding John 1:1-14.
Why! Why should I offer biblical evidence for you to only offer a counter position. We both read the same Bibles. The problem is not with the text; it is with our interpretation. I say that I draw my conclusions via the Spirit witnessed by the evidence of speaking in tongues. Now you condemns this and say it is not for today, which I know is a lie. So what common ground can we stand?
If it truly is the Spirit telling you that your doctrine is sound. Then for 1700 years all the Christians in history are in hell. The catholics (not Roman), Reformers, Lutherans, Puritans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists etc. all are in hell. Augustine, Luther, Wycliff, Tyndale, Calvin, Edwards, Wesley, Whitfield, Spurgeon, all are in hell according to you is that correct? God abandoned us for almost 2000 years up until 1914, is that correct?
1914? Tongues have been manifested every century after Pentecost in some region of the world - in spite of the efforts of Catholics and PROTESTANTS; and augustine, luther, calvin, whitfield, and spurgeon's attempts stamp out tongues. They used literature, politics, mass appeal, and even murder to do it.
Yet people are still being filled with the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, and praising God. One day God's wrath will be revealed from heaven upon iniquity for the blood of TRUE SAINTS.
First off, I don't deny the works and gifts of the Spirit, I've never said that their not for today. Not all Reformed Baptists are cessationists. Secondly, you don't draw you're conclusions from the Spirit neither do you draw them from exegesis but from eisegesis. You try to force your views on certain passages of scripture by blatantly taking them out of context.
This passage was written w/ religious connotations. It was not written as an exercise of the righteous vs. sinner. But it was written as a warning to the righteous against the unrighteous (iniquity, false, professing believers and their theology), which are also sinners!
The Bible states: Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour. - Isa 43:10-11
Please note that the I, even I (Heb. anochi) means Him alone, one emphatically. Now that does not change in spite of what Dr. Walter Martin thought.
911Truth, you need to know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Truth believers became martyrs down thru the years while Trinitarians became the authority over all: truth, history, executions!
Trinitarianism position is all academics, but that does not lead to the knowledge of who God is. It has to be revealed by the Spirit of God. You know, Oneness know how to read as well. I read the same Bible and I see the Son speaks of/to the Father, yet I know that God is One!
Ask youself, why would the apostles, Hebrews, who spoke Aramaic and were not classically trained, write in the academic and most secular Greek language during their day. Why?
How would you feel if oneday you discover that all you ever knew, ever told, was a lie?
He didn't want to cross swords with im in the Greek because Oneness Pentecostals IGNORE THE GREEK! They totally ignore the original language!! Paul, Peter, Matthew and the rest didn't know English!!!!
Oneness believers do not ignore Greek. Oneness ignore a Trinity. BTW - there was/is only one person (personality) in the Godhead. That is Jesus because God is MEMRA/LOGOS and the Holy Ghost is a Spirit. This transcends persons.
So if Jesus is Jehovah then that makes Him God alone b/c he is the only person, ONE! You just can see it, yet you are arrogant and blind!
One personality, and yet JESUS said Himself "not My will, but Thy will be done". Thats the clear showing of two distinct personalities because of two distinct wills being spoken of. Is that arrogant? I think not.......
Yes, two distinct wills: one of the flesh and one of God. I have no problem w/ that. Jesus came as a man, FLESH, an offering for sin. Is God flesh? Is the Holy Ghost flesh? To be flesh is to be human a person. So as I stated affore, the only ONE PERSON of the godhead is Jesus.
The Father is not flesh; the Holy Ghost is not flesh. Only the Son was flesh or came in the flesh! It was the Person, who became flesh, talking to God, who remained the LOGOS and non-flesh.
Do you believe that God is omnipresent? If so, why do you blaspheme Him name by addressing Him as a Trinity (something that has it's roots in Roman paganism and pantheism of the pontifex maximus)? Why? And you call me a heretic. Then thanks be unto God!
when you say christianity vs Unitied pentecostals you are basically saying they are not christians. so they dont believe in chriist, wrong. Christian by deffinition does not mean any one who believe in trinity. i t means christ like
This debate helped me leave upc/oneness also. You have to read the scriptures as they are and look for the natural intended meaning. Oneness teaching is based on hidden meanings and cryptic revelations. God IS truth and WANTS us to understand and wants us to be saved. If you believe in oneness teaching on salvation then 99% of all people who turned to Christ and asked Him to save them were rejected because the message was too hard to understand. come on
when bob stated that the english language is good enough and that we don't have to look at specific texts in the original greek translations, he practically shot himself in the foot.
He was doing well i have to say in the beginning. (better than other cults have done in the past) but when he said that the whole debate was one sided.
Sabellianism is heresy. I was a sabellian but this debate opened my eyes. Thanks John.
What do you truly know about Sabellianism other than the rewritten history or fiction left behind by the dominate Trinitarian culture these last 1700 yrs?
BTW - the jury is still out on whether Greek is the original biblical language of the NT vs. Aramiac, which Jesus and all of the apostles spoke. Historically, in the early centuries, the world held to an Aramaic Primacy except Europeans and later America.
first off, i don't need to read about sabellius and his teaching to know that oneness teaching is heretical.
second, greek is the original language of the NT and the apostles and Jesus spoke Koine Greek. How else were the jews able to communicate with the Romans or the gentiles or Pilate? they didn't all speak aramaic.
watch the debate between James White and Robert Sabin on youtube.
It is an honor being called a heretic by you fools. Do you not know the religious called Jesus Christ the prince of demons!
Even Tertullian, who was possibly the architect of the Trinity, condemned the doctrine of the Trinity after his true-conversion by baptism in Jesus name and speaking in tongue as a Oneness or Modalist.
Anyone who change their debate for the Oneness of God to a debate for the some Trinity could have never truly received the Holy Ghost. Only those who profess Christ could settle for this position.
Your knowledge of the history of the church is pitiful. I'm not even going to debate with you in regards to Tertullian because any person who has any knowledge of christian history would know that the oneness position came to being in the year 1918. The idea of speaking in gibberish (not tongues) is a modern invention. The Apostles spoke in tongues in that they spoke in different languages (Acts 2:5-12). Not gibberish!
I think this Cal Beisner guy (God Bless him) just was not the greatest of guests that John Ankerberg had on his show. I wish John picked someone else.
Your telling me that the oneness don't know greek, how in the world are they going to argue or debate unless they don't know the language of the bible before the english version.
oneness and baptizim in the name of jesus are doctrin of man. revelation through pastor mccalister and chaffey. men like joseph smith and russle tasser
I think the point he was making was that the United Pen. have set themselves up as the judge and jury and as authoritarians of the bible ( without love). They have decided that ALL other beliefs are condemed and lost. when its is really up to God isn't it?
your a silly modalist. Trinitarians believe in Three Persons in the One eternal God. I use to be a Apostolic youth pastor till I had a revelation that the Lord is a Triune. Before you accuse us of polytheism try and understand Theology.
do you think your doctrine is understandable? many people sharing trinitarians on the unbelievers, then the unbelievers got very serious mental problems.. unlike oneness very easily to understood Jesus was the only God..
every human has 1 center of consciousness, God has 3 centers of consciousness. He is still God, like the U.S.A is still single, but is made from multiple persons, or states.
read John 1:1. The Word was Jesus Christ and it says it was WITH God(Father) and Was God... Now we agree there is only One God so that must mean some how that the 2 persons are in the Godhead that make up the ONE God
Yes Iagree with you there is only one God - Jehovah. Thats what its says one God. Read Hebrews 1:1-12 . God has made Jesus, His son, God (ver 8)But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. therfore God and His son are part of the one God. please read it and check the bible out not just the material you are force to read by your church.
Galatians 1:6-8( NIV) 6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
What? out of the catholic church? yeah you really need to read more books on church history instead of blogging with ignorance. : ) keep spreading your ignorance bailey, Walter Martin is the man and the UPC is a CULT!!!!
Ok, Everyone know this, except those who frown upon christian education and you see this in the debate Mr Sabin has no Greek background and a weak historical perspective, Tertullian first mentioned the word trinity and that was way before the Nician creed. Before that, earlier writings from church fathers speak of it but do not label it. And that was the Catholic church. Not the Roman catholic church. Before idols and before Constintine.
Ex. they agreed to say that the Son was not eternal, yet Beisner knew he believed so and stated so in his lying filthy book "God in three persons" horsehock.
This book was even touted as a premium for a donation on the show and Besiner lied with Martin, CALVIN BELIEVED IN A ETERNAL SON AND THEY WERE IN CAHOOTS AND LIED.
oH NOTICE HOW THEY ALLOWED THE TRINITARIANS RUN THE MOUTH AND THIS WAS CARRIED THOUGH THE ENTIRE 'DICUSSION'
Oh BOO HOO! Dr. Martin and Calvin talked more because they had answers. Sabin and the Old guy only had question after question, and beat around the bush to give their answers. This debate trashed the UPCI's reputation. So full of questions but never giving any answers. Am I your brother in Christ? Cite the Greek! Answer to the plurality in the old testament! NO answers only more questions from Sabin. Dr. Martin rocked their world and anyone can see that.
Will you allow me x2 as much time to speak as the Trinitarians had?
Will you allow me to have the choice of the moderator. Will you allow me to direct the discussion & only choose scriptures of my choosing, if so let me know, for that is how this "DISCUSSION", as it was not a debate & apparently you have never been in one.
The trinitrians lied, they interupted the Oneness constantly.
I will debate you on this even, I doubt you can defend the trinies.
HE AND cALVIN BOTH LIED ABOUT THEM NOT BELIEVING IN A ETERNAL SON. Calvin did and the two were in cahoots together saying they didn't when the very book that was offered during the program alled GOD IN THREE PERSONS by Calvin stated tht the Son was eternal.
You people are such liars & duped by lies of your leaders & Pastors.
Martin was so scared he avoided debating Sabin when asked on a fair debate format.
DUH! The Son is eternal..He always was and he will always be!!! but the term "Eternal Sonship" was heretical and coined by Origen who stated that God the Father was eternally begetting the God the Son. That is what Mr. Martin and Cal are referring to...
You have confused these mans statements because you are angry....you need to repent.
Not angry at all, though In hate you false trinity lies and bogus attempt to support such demonic teachings.
Where is the scripture one time say the Son is eternal?
NOWHERE!
The Son is from here on eternal, for God the Father=Spirit dwells in his Son/flesh/body/tabernacle.
Jesus the Son of God was
BEGOTTEN
MADE
BORN
A deity is not begotten, made or born. So you confuse the Son of God the Man Christ with Jesus as the Spirit Deity, our GOD AND FATHER ISA.9:6,REV.21:6-7
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
oneness and trinitarians are both blind siblings, God made oneness for some major reasons.... it is same He the Christ God.... I won't insist everyone to tell this what I post here....
In Acts the Bible says that the disciples and others were waiting on the Promise. The Bible says they were ALL with ONE accord,in ONE place. Accord means like minded or together in thought. The disciples that were on one accord waiting on the promise are the same disciples that also heard Jesus say Matthew 28:19. Now if they were all on one accord when Peter began to speak the Baptisim in Jesus name, why didn't anyone stand up and say, No, we heard Jesus himself say to baptize a diffrent way.
Wow why mince words? Do you think when you go to heaven( and I believe most Pentecostals are) God's going to be " You cannot enter because you were baptized in three names not one! GO TO HELL!" wow if thats your conception of God then your a slave to works and the doctrines of men. God measures the heart not works you crazy goof. And here is the classic line from most Pentecostals "Dont you want to please God?" HA Yeah ONLY Pentecostals can go to heaven? God is bigger than your organization!
Firstly God judges the heart of a man after it is purified FIRST! God needs not to judge the heart of an unsaved man because God already knows the wickedness of a sinful heart therefore, God measures your heart once you begin your relationship with him. God is a God of love and also law and order. When he tells us to do something he doesnt do that for us to discuss if we really need to do it that way or not he tells us to do it because that is hat he wants from us. When God told the priests to
offer sacrifice unto him he told them exactly how he wanted it done and if they DID NOT do it the way he wanted it done then there sacrifice was invalid and God would take their lives. When God told Noah to build the ark he told him EXACTLY how it was supposed to be built all the way down to the exact kind of wood. When God offers a haven from the consiquences of sin he ALWAYS provides the means by which you can access that saftey. You do it the way he tells you to or he doesnt recognize it.
Ok so Jesus(GOD) said to baptize in the Name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy spirit. but the UPCI says to baptize in Jesus' name. Who has more authority? see you take the doctrines of men and place them above God's order. Who is wrong now? You have a nice way of getting around god's order, Hmm, you probably also do this in other areas of your life when God says do it this way, you say no the UPCI says to do it this way................wow
Firstly, father son and holy spirit are not names they are descriptive titles just as you have a name you may be father or mother you are somebodies son or dauhter yet you have a name. What is the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost? Second, I am not apart of the UPCI and I dont have the power to say who goes to heaven or who goes to hell. All I know is that Jesus (God) said to Peter that upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Then the Bible
IF there are three seperate intities, then please tell me their names? we know the titles Father Son and Holy Ghost explain their relations to mankind but please tell me the names that we are to baptize men in?
Firstly recognize acts 2:38 affirms matt 28:19 in that it was not the father or the holy spirit who gave the command to be baptized but it was Jesus Christ. So to do as he commanded matt 28:19 is to do it in his name/authority.
Stop in the name of the law- The law commands......
Secondly He said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. He did not say in the title of the Father, Son and Spirit, there is no distinction in ancient customs between a name and a title.
Acts 2:38 proves my pt. Jesus "Christ" is not a first and last name, Christ itself is a title so to use that arguement disprove one and in a sense disproves the other.
My previous post was to show that by the grammer of the verse we know it is not 1 name being spoken of.
Either way baptism is based upon the knowledge and faith in Jesus christ of the one being baptized.
How dare you ask the name of the living God. Your so full of questions! You want to put The Almighty living God in your tiny box of understanding. Shame on you! SHAME! Your so concerned with names and the stupid doctrines of men. STOP IT! PLEASE! the trinity is way of trying to understand our very huge God. That's all. We don't say however any one who doesn't believe the Trinity is going to Hell! Real Christianity focuses on the Kingdom not doctrines of stupid infallible men!!
I can ask the name of the living God because the Bible says,"come boldly befor the throne.I can have as many questions as I want because the Bible says "Ask and it shall be given unto you. And let me tell you if you think calling Paul and Peter infallible men is ok, then you need to check yourself cause that is who I get the doctrine I believe from! Stop listening to what people are saying, and study your Bible. You've argued with emotion I've seen no Biblical quotes that supports what you say!
says that Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 16:18-19 As we all know keys open and unlock things. We know the church was started in the book of Acts and it was founded on the words that Peter spoke which confirmed what Jesus said to him in Matt. 16:18-19. We see the message Peter preached on the day of Pentecost given to the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles throughout the book of Acts. and then Acts says that "they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine..."
Acts 2:42 So I need you to understand this I belive the doctrine called the Apostles doctrine that was preached on the day of Pentecost and preached unto the Jews, Sumaritans and Gentiles alike. This is not a doctrine owned by any organization, it is the doctrine of the apostles spoken by Peter in whom was authorized by the Lord Jesus Christ when he gave him the keys to the kingdom. And all I know is that my Bible tells me if any man comes unto you and brings not this doctrine recieve him not
THE WORD SAYS in John 10:1 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. And if there is no right or wrong or if God just accepts anything that WE think is right then explain Matthew 7:21-24 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
So you use the scripture say what you want it to say. Because the apostles were in one accord, the UPCI is in one accord so that makes you the right way. WRONG! And because the bible says many who thought they were saved went to Hell, that means EVERYONE outside of UPCI is going to hell. WRONG! The UPCI is a cult and is run by fallible men. and God is not limited to your organization.
into your house neither bid him God speed. IIJohn 10. And thats from the Bible not from the UPCI. I dont have the right to condem anyone all I know is what my Bible tells me to do. I think you have some issues with the UPCI but you dont know me.
"baptising them IN THE NAME of the father, AND of the son, AND of the Holy Ghost." Please tell me the name of the father, son, and Holy Ghost. They are descriptive titles of the name so TELL ME THE NAME!!!!!!
and I know we can beat the trinity, its been long time but this is the right time to waste and to lose because the rapture would be delay because of doctrine of man...
Trinitarians are splitting hell wide opne for denying Jesus our Lord as fully God ad our Father and setting up the Catholic mongrelized version, which is pagan gentile thought and Babylonian teachings of three persons.
No trinitarians can be saved in that mess your church teaches. You deny one God and Jesus name baptism and Spirit baptism with tongues and Holiness.
UR silly to think that our understanding of the Godhead would prevent us from seeing heavenm The T doctrine does NOt deny one God, It insists that there is only 1 GOd,
Sonship is not eternal but the WORD is and JOhn 3 says THe word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, The word is eternal
Question is Flesh a person? if not How can the Son = Flesh
Woe Woe We have a Judge here! wow Tell me "Judge DESKIN1967" What must I do to be saved ? I thought I was, apparently I'm not according to you. When I pray I feel God, when I worship I feel God presence but according to you it must be the Devil whom I feel right? It's all fake this whole christian life I've been living wow You think Jesus might have mentioned that when I talked to Him this morning!!!! wow
they didn't know trinitarians oneness have salvation also, such these doctrines made confusions in this situations, arguing in no end.. the only I say to you just wait and watch about each other in order to know what is real....
no we cant...because one is right and one is wrong..and souls must be saved..it's not God's will for souls to b in confusion. im telling you, show me where baptism what done in titles and not done in the name and i will renounce oneness
God only knows the truth.... what I said the good news was us oneness and trinitarians this is very serious...... our brothers were protestants.....they are not wrong they worship only one God Christ.... same to us....if I'm deceiving you just wait the sequence of the world...
when I'm bible study at in upc I wonder why Jesus Christ call the Son of God, He always talks about to His followers about His Father (God the Father).... In the crucify in His I won't believe Jesus Christ lie He shouting about His Father if does you will know what I mean but since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one it took me as a same salvation that's it... but I know trinitarians are already know about this about the bible but trinitarians argued our oneness doctrine they.....
Now I myself use the KJV. I think it is the best english translation. There should be no problem with examining greek or hebrew when we have a slight dissagreement or we need further clarification. The KJV is the Word of God. We should be allowed to study the greek as long as it clears up understanding with a particular verse. That doesnt mean the english is not sufficient. It DOES mean that when we have two separate intepretations,we can only go back to the greek. Sometimes it helps as here.
"since when did grammer become more important then what the Bible says"Jesusislove7777. Do you realize what you are asking? Grammer is the basis of how humans communicate through language. The Bible says nothing,communicates nothing without grammar. The very fact you know that Jesus rose from the dead,is because of grammer. The words comprised deliever a specific meaning in the english grammer. Why would the english be surperior to the greek grammer?? Are you really serious??
This is a good debate, but I think it is very biased of the moderator to to say that the non-UPC guys are representatives of Orthodox Christianity without defining what they mean with Orthodox Christianity. What does it mean to be Orthodox? Is it to be representing the largest denomination in the world? If so, they should be Roman Catholics. It would be more precise to say that they are Trinitarian Protestants or whatever denomination they are.
The Greek the Bible original manuscripts were written in koine greek. You as well as I use the TR manucripts by which the KJV translation came about. I use the KJV also and love that translation. I still think someone with 6yrs of koine greek as Martin had who has looked at copies such as the TR,GS,MR,etc should be listened to even if we dont agree fully. The originals were written in koine greek while the english language was in its infancy.
Dr. Martin is on it. You have to rightly divide the Word of Truth. The UPC guys are not well studied. They believe what they believe in and that's it. These are the leaders.
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God only needs truth, so only logical and facts should support truth. God will give you the answers rather than believe a lie.
Jewish prospective below and Christian from east. both are logical with facts. Oneness is half truth and implied authority over God word.
A Jewish Christian Explains the Holy Trinity... on you tube This is Dr. Michael Brown
The Law of Non-Contradiction and the Trinity ...... on you tube Ravi Zacharias
Three Gods in One?! Donate to Jews for Jesus Rich Robins...
MrHellowwww1 3 weeks ago
here is the thing and i'm not trying to fight...but that word trinity or Τριάς is not in the greek text...so he better know he's greek lol and i can say this that the belief and wroship of the trinity goes back to babylon the worship of Baal, Ishtar, and Tammuz then the egyptians with osiris and isis and horus and the hindu trinity brahma,vishnu,and sheva. and the nicaea council adopted the trinity. again its not in the Greek text
lukeous1985 5 months ago
Ahhh, some humility at 3:32. Now good a a definition at 8:22 - One Eternal God, what I have trouble with is "persons" distinct. The distinction I believe is a human one. For our understanding. When God created man, he had Jesus (logos) in mind.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I want to serve the One True and Living God in all humility and truth. Not straining at a gnat. God is the Judge. He knows the heart, and that's what counts the most of all!
GiniaMarie1 9 months ago
@GiniaMarie1 I appreciate what you are being emphatic about. They didn't go into much detail of the ontological distinction between "being" and "person", so I'd like to ask you what it is you think they are saying when they use the word person.
In the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds, the word that we translate as "person" was in fact "persona". The word "persona" has nothing to do with individuality, and actually means "a role" when used as a noun.
Lukecash12 5 months ago in playlist UPC vs. Trinity
@Lukecash12 Well now Likecash ........that would make a lot more sense then what I have in mind a "person" that is how I interpret God as roles. God has roles in which he manifests Himself. That is He is sovereign, God can manifest Himself in any 'role' he wishes. "a role" makes a great deal more sense to me. The role of the "son" does begin in time as we know it, however, as God sees time in eternity, the Son has always existed in God's mind, as the logos. Understand? That is
GiniaMarie1 4 months ago
@GiniaMarie1 the "Logos" has existed in the mind of God for all eternity. Does t his make sense ?
GiniaMarie1 4 months ago
@GiniaMarie1 Actually, as spelled out by John's obvious response to Sirach, Philo, and the Wisdom of Solomon, Jesus is God's Logos (meaning a contingent expression of his personality, just like the Greek understanding of our verbal expression signifying and being contingent upon us). God's Logos was being interpreted out of Proverbs by Deuterocanonical books, and John set the record straight with the God inspired theology of John 1. The "son" has always existed as a contingent role scripturally.
Lukecash12 4 months ago
@Lukecash12 yes sir ... this, is in my mind stating the same, for the most part. However, and forgive my ignorance,. what is the the contingency upon which the scriptural "role" hangs?
Your language is foreign to me. I must bone up on my theological vernacular, or perhaps you could restate this in layman's terms, please. Are you saying the logos in contingent upon God, being God ? I apologize for not comprehending your statement. Please clarify in laymen terms if possible.
GiniaMarie1 4 months ago
@GiniaMarie1 Yes, some of the theological language can be encumbent in a short discussion like this. Here's a more accessible restatement: One's logos, according to the use of the Greek word, is one's verbal expression in a general sense. For something to be contingent upon another thing, is a kind of synonym for "symbiotic". Their existence is dependent upon one another, and in theology for something to be contingent doesn't merely have an ecological or evolutionary meaning.
Lukecash12 4 months ago
@GiniaMarie1 Their very state of existence is dependent upon the other. Just as man must have a spirit, a fleshly abode, and a verbal expression of himself, in order to be considered a human by the writers of the New Testament, so must God have a logos and a pneumati (spirit) for His existence to conform with the scriptures He has given us.
We are not at all in a role to presume things about God according to our vain philosophy, but God Himself graciously made some things evident about himself.
Lukecash12 4 months ago
@GiniaMarie1 If you would like to discuss with me how it is that God made His contingent qualities evident to us in the scriptures, feel free to PM me. The discussion would be better served through that medium, given that the topic is much too grand for a series of comments.
Lukecash12 4 months ago
What I find in common with these men here is that when I place the Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek before the Oneness believers, they don't have a clue & even toss it off as if Moses, Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John were from New York! KNOW YOUR GREEK!!!
SatinB7 10 months ago
Humans tring to undestand Gods´s nature.......This kind of discussion take place since Jesus resurrecion...300 years later The trinity was the "official" doctrine about God's nature...iw onder what God thinks about his, his sons trying to define His nature..
IsaacBG84 11 months ago 3
@IsaacBG84 Nature/=/Identity. The "machinations" of His ultimate primacy are completely above our cognizant ability to define. However, in His scriptures He was explicit as to what His identity is.
Lukecash12 5 months ago in playlist UPC vs. Trinity
"Where are those people going?" CLASSIC!!!
cougartino 1 year ago
You jolly well BETTER know your Greek! Man... I love this video.
littleman684 1 year ago 11
@littleman684 Agreed!
dogfight55 1 year ago
@littleman684 Me too littleman684...Me TOO!
therealreformeddave 3 months ago
What a complete load of bullshit, people are arguing over a fairy tale book
givingmantoo 1 year ago
@givingmantoo If you don't have nothing Good to say, then don't say anything at all- LOSER! I bet your breath smells like a rotten tooth.
anifbim 1 year ago
@anifbim And I supose you believe that these idiots on the video had anything good to say? Never the less, spoken like a true theist ...
givingmantoo 1 year ago
@givingmantoo don't you mean suppose? I mean if we are going to strain and strive to be fully correct. Gimme a break, and get a dictionary. What I'd like to know is : Where is the Prince of Peace in all this?
GiniaMarie1 9 months ago
@GiniaMarie1 The "Prince of Peace" is where all imaginary story book characters are.
givingmantoo 9 months ago
@GiniaMarie1 If you don't know, and OBVIOUSLY you don't know, you better find out really quick. When He comes to save His people and take away the "church", you're going to be left behind. And being left behind means you have to go through the Tribulation Period. And that means absolutely No peace what so ever. Get with the program and ask the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob who He is and to save you too. He'll forgive you of your debt and look out for your Eternity state:)
anifbim 9 months ago
@anifbim interesting what you assume! Jesus knows the hearts of all men, it's true, so be very careful how you mete out your judgement. Judgment will begin at the house of God.
GiniaMarie1 9 months ago
@anifbim The truth is always good, and the truth is that this is a fairy tale book. And your mama does not mind my bad breath.
givingmantoo 9 months ago
walter martin for the win.....he slapped those apostolics silly haha
jnclz 1 year ago 12
@jnclz true indeed
DonJay777 6 months ago
scribd (dot) com/nb812
DreamsofMajesty 1 year ago
the stupidity of these guys is not just their bad theology ....It's the fact they make the mistake of sitting down across the table from walter martin ....that alone shows true lack of wisdom .. The bibleclearly teaches when going to war and you're out gunned ..make peace with your adversary or have a plans,funds and materials before building a building ...oops
zwreckless1 1 year ago
@zwreckless1 These men argued like true Champs. Not matter how much patience he had, No matter how he broke it down those nimwits just could not grasp the Truth. The scarey thing is, is that they are leading sheep astray. They are teaching not according to the Bible. If the Bible says Jesus and the Father are One, then they are one. He is I am. Alpha and Omega. The Visible Image of God. It is clear. But ppl want to understand everything from logic and it's not possible!!!!!
anifbim 11 months ago
Ankersburg seems like such a nice , happy , funny guy..i wish there was more of this type of introspective ,honest discussion and insightful teaching going on these days ,,,Walter Martin will ever be missed .Never seen a nicer guy who could fight liike a badger and keep a smile and a twinkle in his eye as he calls a spade a spade
zwreckless1 1 year ago
paganism in christianity not
Bigtony3868 1 year ago
there is so much paganism in christianity it is ridiculous and in pentecoastian burnt offersing sacafices that is paganism
lionheartodd 1 year ago
Elohim means plural it means one God in plural is one.
catholicnation 1 year ago
Easy and in him was the Father -Paul And he is the word so long I'm with you and you do not recognize me. You say show me the Father? :P Study people
lhfigueroa 1 year ago
Walter Martin is the man.
Rook369 1 year ago
God didnt abandon, he gave it to us to mess up...
mike62mcmanus 1 year ago
The message of truth is a demostration of the Spirit and power, not philosophy, logic, and scholastic theological foolishness ...
Strafete 1 year ago
@Strafete Your comment is foolishness. You will be fooled by the power of the Beast and the False Prophet.
faelismaegnus 1 year ago
@faelismaegnus No, I will be in heaven praising God while many like you will be here still debating theology. How one can be saved without the Holy Ghost is beyond me?
Strafete 1 year ago
@Strafete No one believes you can be saved without the Holy Ghost. Read Acts 10. First they heard the Word, then they believed and began to magnify God in languages unknown to them, THEN they were baptized.
FAITH comes by hearing and that by the Word of God. To as many as believed on His Word gave He power to become the Sons of God.
Pentecostalism is a man made religion riddled with heresies - false tongues - works for salvation - denial of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as separate Persons.
faelismaegnus 1 year ago
@faelismaegnus Yeah, but in Scripture, they confirmed their faith by speaking in tongues. How could anyone have heard without a preacher, and how could anyone preach except he has been sent? Otherwise, it is INIQUITY to preach without being sent (Holy Ghost filled w/ evidence - speaking in tongues.
Strafete 1 year ago
@Strafete No they didn't. GOD confirmed their faith to the unbelievers. TONGUES is a sign to those who do not believe. In Acts 10 GOD confirmed the FAITH of the Gentiles to the original JEWISH CHRISTIANS.
faelismaegnus 1 year ago
@faelismaegnus Jesus said that signs (tongues, etc.) would them that believe! Yes to tongues are a sign TO the unbeliever per point confirming their faith after believing!
Strafete 1 year ago
@Strafete You make no sense. Tongues are a sign given by God to the unbelievers THROUGH the believers - just like at Pentecost. In Acts 10 the Jewish Christians didn't believe God was also with the Gentiles until God sent the Gentile believers the same gift as a sign for the unbelief of the Jews regarding Gentile salvation through Christ. Paul makes it crystal clear in I Cor. 14 that NO UNKNOWN TONGUES are to be spoken in church aloud without an interpreter. Tongues are REAL HUMAN LANGUAGES.
faelismaegnus 1 year ago
Neither is it an academic issue. It is a spiritual one. Consider this: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)
Strafete 1 year ago
You CAN NOT with your God-given conscience deny that the passage that I gave as an example, Phil 2:4-8, proves the pre-existence of the Son. You claim that it's the Spirit that tells you that you're doctrine is true. I recommend that you read 1 John 4:1. Not all spirits are from God.
911TruthSeeker91 1 year ago
The apostles never taught, preached, or wrote about a Trinity neither any of the OT prophet. Conversely, you and all of your fathers of the gospels do.
I do not deny the Father, neither the Son, nor the Holy Ghost. I do deny a 3-persons God, which the Bible never speaks of. Why do you think it was impossible for the OMNIPRESENT ONE to be God in heaven and a man on the earth at the same time?
Strafete 1 year ago
@Strafete If you speak in tongues out loud in Church without an interpreter you are a lawbreaker and spiritually discerned.
faelismaegnus 1 year ago
Jesus was the true Yehovah Yirah, the ram that was provided for the whole world. God Himself became the sacrificial lamb, but He came as a man. Ask yourself, how many other men are apart of the godhead, NONE! Jesus was not God masquerading as a man; HE WAS A 100% MAN! as he walked the earth. Now, I am very sure that you do not understand this at all ...
Strafete 2 years ago
BTW - 911Truth, any respectable scholar would agree that both Jesus and the disciples spoke Aramaic, undeniably! Certainly, there were Jewish interpeters (liaisons) on both sides. The same is truth today with the US military or state dept. in other foreign countries.
Listen! One can take Aramaic text to clarify errors that are written in Greek transations.
Strafete 2 years ago
Please just stop. You're making yourself look stupid on youtube. Greek was the original language of the original texts. YES! the Apostles spoke Aramaic, but they also spoke greek. Tell me what language Pontius Pilate spoke, or the gentiles in Judea, or the Roman soldiers. They didn't all speak aramaic. Jesus spoke Aramaic and Greek.
911TruthSeeker91 2 years ago
Historically, there is just as much support for Aramiac being the primary language of the Bible as there is for Greek. It just depends on the region of the world the supporter's influenced.
It appears that you are playing the guessing game. For two things we know is true: Jesus spoke Aramaic and Pilate spoke Latin for certain. Of the 1st. apostle, it is very likely that Paul was the only one who was able to write in Greek. Funny, how you all report and omit history!
Strafete 2 years ago
Ask yourself, how could fishermen, vocational workers, mostly, and uneducated men (Galileans) write in Greek to mostly an Aramiac/Hebrew speaking audience of the 1st. century? That is just Western Europe arrogance.
Now, let me make it clear, I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ! So it does not matter to me which of the two languages is primary.
Strafete 2 years ago
First off. not all the christians in the 1st century were Jews. Secondly, if the Jews had nothing to do with Koine Greek, then would you kindly explain why the Septuagint (Old Testament written in Greek) was used by the Jews in the few centuries before Christ? Furthermore, an occupied nation is obviously going to learn new languages. For example, neither Artaxerxes nor nebuchadnezzer spoke hebrew to Daniel and Esther, but instead the Jews spoke the language of the babylonians and the persians.
911TruthSeeker91 1 year ago
Yes, the LXX was a greek translation of the OT, but it was done out of politics to appease wicked kings & priests seeking favor from the greeks. It was never really accepted by Israel faithful; neither was it ever the showcase like the Tanak. BTW - Hebrew and Aramaic have a common origin, not like Greek being totally foreign.
Strafete 1 year ago
Even if the primary language of the Bible is Greek, how do you hold to some of the popular views of Scripture after investigating the proper conjugations and declensions of terms, being the Greek scholar that you are?
For example: give me your take on Rom10:9-10 after proper conjugation of the Greek verbs in the passage. Expand on the difference between confess and profess, and why v. 9 is written in the active vs. v. 10 being written in the passive voice.
Strafete 1 year ago
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Strafete 1 year ago
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Please share your thoughts on the subject not those of other sources.
Strafete 1 year ago
I'm not a greek scholar. I never professed to be one. If you're refering to the message I sent you, part of it is an extract from a book which defends the pre-existence of Christ. But that's not the point. the point is you're attacking the trinity without any biblical evidence to back yourself up. I've shown you my evidence through the message I've sent you regarding Paul's letter to the Philippians, and from the extract regarding John 1:1-14.
Show me your evidence.
911TruthSeeker91 1 year ago
Why! Why should I offer biblical evidence for you to only offer a counter position. We both read the same Bibles. The problem is not with the text; it is with our interpretation. I say that I draw my conclusions via the Spirit witnessed by the evidence of speaking in tongues. Now you condemns this and say it is not for today, which I know is a lie. So what common ground can we stand?
Strafete 1 year ago
That's condemn ...
Strafete 1 year ago
If it truly is the Spirit telling you that your doctrine is sound. Then for 1700 years all the Christians in history are in hell. The catholics (not Roman), Reformers, Lutherans, Puritans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists etc. all are in hell. Augustine, Luther, Wycliff, Tyndale, Calvin, Edwards, Wesley, Whitfield, Spurgeon, all are in hell according to you is that correct? God abandoned us for almost 2000 years up until 1914, is that correct?
911TruthSeeker91 1 year ago
1914? Tongues have been manifested every century after Pentecost in some region of the world - in spite of the efforts of Catholics and PROTESTANTS; and augustine, luther, calvin, whitfield, and spurgeon's attempts stamp out tongues. They used literature, politics, mass appeal, and even murder to do it.
Yet people are still being filled with the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, and praising God. One day God's wrath will be revealed from heaven upon iniquity for the blood of TRUE SAINTS.
Strafete 1 year ago
First off, I don't deny the works and gifts of the Spirit, I've never said that their not for today. Not all Reformed Baptists are cessationists. Secondly, you don't draw you're conclusions from the Spirit neither do you draw them from exegesis but from eisegesis. You try to force your views on certain passages of scripture by blatantly taking them out of context.
911TruthSeeker91 1 year ago
BTW, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is talking about the Depravity of Man, not whether man can discern which doctrine is biblically sound.
911TruthSeeker91 1 year ago
Nowm who is taking something out of context! What does the title verse or leading paragraph of 1 Cor 2 states?
v. 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
v. 4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
v. 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Strafete 1 year ago
This passage was written w/ religious connotations. It was not written as an exercise of the righteous vs. sinner. But it was written as a warning to the righteous against the unrighteous (iniquity, false, professing believers and their theology), which are also sinners!
Strafete 1 year ago
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Strafete 2 years ago
The Bible states: Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour. - Isa 43:10-11
Please note that the I, even I (Heb. anochi) means Him alone, one emphatically. Now that does not change in spite of what Dr. Walter Martin thought.
Strafete 2 years ago
911Truth, you need to know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Truth believers became martyrs down thru the years while Trinitarians became the authority over all: truth, history, executions!
Trinitarianism position is all academics, but that does not lead to the knowledge of who God is. It has to be revealed by the Spirit of God. You know, Oneness know how to read as well. I read the same Bible and I see the Son speaks of/to the Father, yet I know that God is One!
Strafete 2 years ago
Ask youself, why would the apostles, Hebrews, who spoke Aramaic and were not classically trained, write in the academic and most secular Greek language during their day. Why?
How would you feel if oneday you discover that all you ever knew, ever told, was a lie?
Strafete 2 years ago
He didn't want to cross swords with im in the Greek because Oneness Pentecostals IGNORE THE GREEK! They totally ignore the original language!! Paul, Peter, Matthew and the rest didn't know English!!!!
streets2apostle 2 years ago
Oneness believers do not ignore Greek. Oneness ignore a Trinity. BTW - there was/is only one person (personality) in the Godhead. That is Jesus because God is MEMRA/LOGOS and the Holy Ghost is a Spirit. This transcends persons.
So if Jesus is Jehovah then that makes Him God alone b/c he is the only person, ONE! You just can see it, yet you are arrogant and blind!
Strafete 2 years ago
One personality, and yet JESUS said Himself "not My will, but Thy will be done". Thats the clear showing of two distinct personalities because of two distinct wills being spoken of. Is that arrogant? I think not.......
streets2apostle 2 years ago
Yes, two distinct wills: one of the flesh and one of God. I have no problem w/ that. Jesus came as a man, FLESH, an offering for sin. Is God flesh? Is the Holy Ghost flesh? To be flesh is to be human a person. So as I stated affore, the only ONE PERSON of the godhead is Jesus.
Strafete 2 years ago
The Father is not flesh; the Holy Ghost is not flesh. Only the Son was flesh or came in the flesh! It was the Person, who became flesh, talking to God, who remained the LOGOS and non-flesh.
Strafete 2 years ago
Do you believe that God is omnipresent? If so, why do you blaspheme Him name by addressing Him as a Trinity (something that has it's roots in Roman paganism and pantheism of the pontifex maximus)? Why? And you call me a heretic. Then thanks be unto God!
Strafete 2 years ago
when you say christianity vs Unitied pentecostals you are basically saying they are not christians. so they dont believe in chriist, wrong. Christian by deffinition does not mean any one who believe in trinity. i t means christ like
BelieveBlueVideos 2 years ago
This debate helped me leave upc/oneness also. You have to read the scriptures as they are and look for the natural intended meaning. Oneness teaching is based on hidden meanings and cryptic revelations. God IS truth and WANTS us to understand and wants us to be saved. If you believe in oneness teaching on salvation then 99% of all people who turned to Christ and asked Him to save them were rejected because the message was too hard to understand. come on
musicmusing 2 years ago
when bob stated that the english language is good enough and that we don't have to look at specific texts in the original greek translations, he practically shot himself in the foot.
He was doing well i have to say in the beginning. (better than other cults have done in the past) but when he said that the whole debate was one sided.
Sabellianism is heresy. I was a sabellian but this debate opened my eyes. Thanks John.
911TruthSeeker91 2 years ago
@911TruthSeeker91 I use to be "oneness" as well and this debate helped me leave the heretical movement behind
AndyTCurry 2 years ago
Praise God! Its good to know that I'm not the only one who was changed by this debate.
911TruthSeeker91 2 years ago
What do you truly know about Sabellianism other than the rewritten history or fiction left behind by the dominate Trinitarian culture these last 1700 yrs?
BTW - the jury is still out on whether Greek is the original biblical language of the NT vs. Aramiac, which Jesus and all of the apostles spoke. Historically, in the early centuries, the world held to an Aramaic Primacy except Europeans and later America.
Strafete 2 years ago
@Strafete
first off, i don't need to read about sabellius and his teaching to know that oneness teaching is heretical.
second, greek is the original language of the NT and the apostles and Jesus spoke Koine Greek. How else were the jews able to communicate with the Romans or the gentiles or Pilate? they didn't all speak aramaic.
watch the debate between James White and Robert Sabin on youtube.
911TruthSeeker91 2 years ago
It is an honor being called a heretic by you fools. Do you not know the religious called Jesus Christ the prince of demons!
Even Tertullian, who was possibly the architect of the Trinity, condemned the doctrine of the Trinity after his true-conversion by baptism in Jesus name and speaking in tongue as a Oneness or Modalist.
Strafete 2 years ago
Anyone who change their debate for the Oneness of God to a debate for the some Trinity could have never truly received the Holy Ghost. Only those who profess Christ could settle for this position.
Strafete 2 years ago
Your knowledge of the history of the church is pitiful. I'm not even going to debate with you in regards to Tertullian because any person who has any knowledge of christian history would know that the oneness position came to being in the year 1918. The idea of speaking in gibberish (not tongues) is a modern invention. The Apostles spoke in tongues in that they spoke in different languages (Acts 2:5-12). Not gibberish!
911TruthSeeker91 2 years ago
The subjects that you should be silent on is "Tongues," and salvation, and the Person of God (not persons).
Strafete 2 years ago
I think this Cal Beisner guy (God Bless him) just was not the greatest of guests that John Ankerberg had on his show. I wish John picked someone else.
cryinglion 2 years ago
Your telling me that the oneness don't know greek, how in the world are they going to argue or debate unless they don't know the language of the bible before the english version.
thomla7 2 years ago 2
oneness and baptizim in the name of jesus are doctrin of man. revelation through pastor mccalister and chaffey. men like joseph smith and russle tasser
scorpioerrante1 2 years ago
In video 4-27 Martin becomes rude and accusing.
I wish he had not done that.
wonone100 2 years ago
I think the point he was making was that the United Pen. have set themselves up as the judge and jury and as authoritarians of the bible ( without love). They have decided that ALL other beliefs are condemed and lost. when its is really up to God isn't it?
tassiespirit 2 years ago
too bad the word trinity is not in the Bible any where....what a shame
jobbins008 2 years ago
neither is the word Oneness, or Apostolic. Does that substantiate anything?
streets2apostle 2 years ago
Apostle... One...okay thank you. trinity, triune...none
jobbins008 2 years ago
there's no trinity on the bible, there's no three gods ahead on the bible...
moz165 2 years ago
your a silly modalist. Trinitarians believe in Three Persons in the One eternal God. I use to be a Apostolic youth pastor till I had a revelation that the Lord is a Triune. Before you accuse us of polytheism try and understand Theology.
AndyTCurry 2 years ago
do you think your doctrine is understandable? many people sharing trinitarians on the unbelievers, then the unbelievers got very serious mental problems.. unlike oneness very easily to understood Jesus was the only God..
moz165 2 years ago
every human has 1 center of consciousness, God has 3 centers of consciousness. He is still God, like the U.S.A is still single, but is made from multiple persons, or states.
theonlyway2truth 2 years ago
there's is no word separation, or three persons what is according to bible just a word of mouth from people
moz165 2 years ago
read John 1:1. The Word was Jesus Christ and it says it was WITH God(Father) and Was God... Now we agree there is only One God so that must mean some how that the 2 persons are in the Godhead that make up the ONE God
AndyTCurry 2 years ago
1 is always 1 not 1 can be 2 and there's no person in the bible can you give a verse, Jesus was God from the beginning understand?
moz165 2 years ago
1 John 5:7 (Amplified Bible)
So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;
tassiespirit 2 years ago
only one God not separate personalities or make into three gods
moz165 2 years ago
Yes Iagree with you there is only one God - Jehovah. Thats what its says one God. Read Hebrews 1:1-12 . God has made Jesus, His son, God (ver 8)But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. therfore God and His son are part of the one God. please read it and check the bible out not just the material you are force to read by your church.
tassiespirit 2 years ago
MOZ165 this is for you to read-
Galatians 1:6-8( NIV) 6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
tassiespirit 2 years ago
Tassiespirit I love that verse
blessedwithoutmeasur 2 years ago
BLESS THE LORD FOR REVELATION!
streets2apostle 2 years ago
Comment removed
hillccs 2 years ago
The Trinitarian doctrine is birthed out of Catholic Church. Walter is slinging mud because he has been backed into a corner.
Baileythemage 3 years ago
What? out of the catholic church? yeah you really need to read more books on church history instead of blogging with ignorance. : ) keep spreading your ignorance bailey, Walter Martin is the man and the UPC is a CULT!!!!
odeivonimajneb 3 years ago
Really sir? Then Answer me. Where did the trinitarian Doctrine come from?? It isn't biblical.
Baileythemage 3 years ago
Ok, Everyone know this, except those who frown upon christian education and you see this in the debate Mr Sabin has no Greek background and a weak historical perspective, Tertullian first mentioned the word trinity and that was way before the Nician creed. Before that, earlier writings from church fathers speak of it but do not label it. And that was the Catholic church. Not the Roman catholic church. Before idols and before Constintine.
odeivonimajneb 3 years ago
Walter Martin is the MAN!
SICK EM BOY!
stopplayingchurch 3 years ago 4
walter martin was a LIAR.
He and Beisner lied and more than once.
Ex. they agreed to say that the Son was not eternal, yet Beisner knew he believed so and stated so in his lying filthy book "God in three persons" horsehock.
This book was even touted as a premium for a donation on the show and Besiner lied with Martin, CALVIN BELIEVED IN A ETERNAL SON AND THEY WERE IN CAHOOTS AND LIED.
oH NOTICE HOW THEY ALLOWED THE TRINITARIANS RUN THE MOUTH AND THIS WAS CARRIED THOUGH THE ENTIRE 'DICUSSION'
DESKIN1967 3 years ago
Oh BOO HOO! Dr. Martin and Calvin talked more because they had answers. Sabin and the Old guy only had question after question, and beat around the bush to give their answers. This debate trashed the UPCI's reputation. So full of questions but never giving any answers. Am I your brother in Christ? Cite the Greek! Answer to the plurality in the old testament! NO answers only more questions from Sabin. Dr. Martin rocked their world and anyone can see that.
odeivonimajneb 3 years ago
Will you debate me with the same format?
Will you allow me x2 as much time to speak as the Trinitarians had?
Will you allow me to have the choice of the moderator. Will you allow me to direct the discussion & only choose scriptures of my choosing, if so let me know, for that is how this "DISCUSSION", as it was not a debate & apparently you have never been in one.
The trinitrians lied, they interupted the Oneness constantly.
I will debate you on this even, I doubt you can defend the trinies.
DESKIN1967 3 years ago
Walter Martin was a liar. Point in question.
HE AND cALVIN BOTH LIED ABOUT THEM NOT BELIEVING IN A ETERNAL SON. Calvin did and the two were in cahoots together saying they didn't when the very book that was offered during the program alled GOD IN THREE PERSONS by Calvin stated tht the Son was eternal.
You people are such liars & duped by lies of your leaders & Pastors.
Martin was so scared he avoided debating Sabin when asked on a fair debate format.
CHICKEN LIVERED boy!, was what he was.
DESKIN1967 3 years ago
DUH! The Son is eternal..He always was and he will always be!!! but the term "Eternal Sonship" was heretical and coined by Origen who stated that God the Father was eternally begetting the God the Son. That is what Mr. Martin and Cal are referring to...
You have confused these mans statements because you are angry....you need to repent.
stopplayingchurch 3 years ago
Not angry at all, though In hate you false trinity lies and bogus attempt to support such demonic teachings.
Where is the scripture one time say the Son is eternal?
NOWHERE!
The Son is from here on eternal, for God the Father=Spirit dwells in his Son/flesh/body/tabernacle.
Jesus the Son of God was
BEGOTTEN
MADE
BORN
A deity is not begotten, made or born. So you confuse the Son of God the Man Christ with Jesus as the Spirit Deity, our GOD AND FATHER ISA.9:6,REV.21:6-7
They both lied.
DESKIN1967 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
oneness and trinitarians are both blind siblings, God made oneness for some major reasons.... it is same He the Christ God.... I won't insist everyone to tell this what I post here....
moz165 3 years ago
In Acts the Bible says that the disciples and others were waiting on the Promise. The Bible says they were ALL with ONE accord,in ONE place. Accord means like minded or together in thought. The disciples that were on one accord waiting on the promise are the same disciples that also heard Jesus say Matthew 28:19. Now if they were all on one accord when Peter began to speak the Baptisim in Jesus name, why didn't anyone stand up and say, No, we heard Jesus himself say to baptize a diffrent way.
ti66 3 years ago
Wow why mince words? Do you think when you go to heaven( and I believe most Pentecostals are) God's going to be " You cannot enter because you were baptized in three names not one! GO TO HELL!" wow if thats your conception of God then your a slave to works and the doctrines of men. God measures the heart not works you crazy goof. And here is the classic line from most Pentecostals "Dont you want to please God?" HA Yeah ONLY Pentecostals can go to heaven? God is bigger than your organization!
odeivonimajneb 3 years ago
Firstly God judges the heart of a man after it is purified FIRST! God needs not to judge the heart of an unsaved man because God already knows the wickedness of a sinful heart therefore, God measures your heart once you begin your relationship with him. God is a God of love and also law and order. When he tells us to do something he doesnt do that for us to discuss if we really need to do it that way or not he tells us to do it because that is hat he wants from us. When God told the priests to
ti66 3 years ago
offer sacrifice unto him he told them exactly how he wanted it done and if they DID NOT do it the way he wanted it done then there sacrifice was invalid and God would take their lives. When God told Noah to build the ark he told him EXACTLY how it was supposed to be built all the way down to the exact kind of wood. When God offers a haven from the consiquences of sin he ALWAYS provides the means by which you can access that saftey. You do it the way he tells you to or he doesnt recognize it.
ti66 3 years ago
Ok so Jesus(GOD) said to baptize in the Name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy spirit. but the UPCI says to baptize in Jesus' name. Who has more authority? see you take the doctrines of men and place them above God's order. Who is wrong now? You have a nice way of getting around god's order, Hmm, you probably also do this in other areas of your life when God says do it this way, you say no the UPCI says to do it this way................wow
odeivonimajneb 3 years ago
Firstly, father son and holy spirit are not names they are descriptive titles just as you have a name you may be father or mother you are somebodies son or dauhter yet you have a name. What is the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost? Second, I am not apart of the UPCI and I dont have the power to say who goes to heaven or who goes to hell. All I know is that Jesus (God) said to Peter that upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Then the Bible
ti66 3 years ago
Hey ti66 your int of mat 28:19 is inconsistent, Firstly it says in the name of the Father "AND of the".... "and of the"........
This grammer automatically suggest a separation of persons and is therefore translated an individual name "of" each
Secondly, Father SOn and HolyGhost are capitalized, check out the rules for this.
"in the name of Jesus.." refers to the authority in which its done....
Acts 4 says "in what power or in what name have you done this"
liberatedvialove 2 years ago
IF there are three seperate intities, then please tell me their names? we know the titles Father Son and Holy Ghost explain their relations to mankind but please tell me the names that we are to baptize men in?
ti66 2 years ago
Firstly recognize acts 2:38 affirms matt 28:19 in that it was not the father or the holy spirit who gave the command to be baptized but it was Jesus Christ. So to do as he commanded matt 28:19 is to do it in his name/authority.
Stop in the name of the law- The law commands......
Secondly He said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. He did not say in the title of the Father, Son and Spirit, there is no distinction in ancient customs between a name and a title.
liberatedvialove 2 years ago
Acts 2:38 proves my pt. Jesus "Christ" is not a first and last name, Christ itself is a title so to use that arguement disprove one and in a sense disproves the other.
My previous post was to show that by the grammer of the verse we know it is not 1 name being spoken of.
Either way baptism is based upon the knowledge and faith in Jesus christ of the one being baptized.
liberatedvialove 2 years ago
How dare you ask the name of the living God. Your so full of questions! You want to put The Almighty living God in your tiny box of understanding. Shame on you! SHAME! Your so concerned with names and the stupid doctrines of men. STOP IT! PLEASE! the trinity is way of trying to understand our very huge God. That's all. We don't say however any one who doesn't believe the Trinity is going to Hell! Real Christianity focuses on the Kingdom not doctrines of stupid infallible men!!
odeivonimajneb 2 years ago
I can ask the name of the living God because the Bible says,"come boldly befor the throne.I can have as many questions as I want because the Bible says "Ask and it shall be given unto you. And let me tell you if you think calling Paul and Peter infallible men is ok, then you need to check yourself cause that is who I get the doctrine I believe from! Stop listening to what people are saying, and study your Bible. You've argued with emotion I've seen no Biblical quotes that supports what you say!
ti66 2 years ago
Why kick against the prick?
ti66 2 years ago
says that Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 16:18-19 As we all know keys open and unlock things. We know the church was started in the book of Acts and it was founded on the words that Peter spoke which confirmed what Jesus said to him in Matt. 16:18-19. We see the message Peter preached on the day of Pentecost given to the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles throughout the book of Acts. and then Acts says that "they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine..."
ti66 3 years ago
Acts 2:42 So I need you to understand this I belive the doctrine called the Apostles doctrine that was preached on the day of Pentecost and preached unto the Jews, Sumaritans and Gentiles alike. This is not a doctrine owned by any organization, it is the doctrine of the apostles spoken by Peter in whom was authorized by the Lord Jesus Christ when he gave him the keys to the kingdom. And all I know is that my Bible tells me if any man comes unto you and brings not this doctrine recieve him not
ti66 3 years ago
THE WORD SAYS in John 10:1 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. And if there is no right or wrong or if God just accepts anything that WE think is right then explain Matthew 7:21-24 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
ti66 3 years ago
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
ti66 3 years ago
So you use the scripture say what you want it to say. Because the apostles were in one accord, the UPCI is in one accord so that makes you the right way. WRONG! And because the bible says many who thought they were saved went to Hell, that means EVERYONE outside of UPCI is going to hell. WRONG! The UPCI is a cult and is run by fallible men. and God is not limited to your organization.
odeivonimajneb 3 years ago
into your house neither bid him God speed. IIJohn 10. And thats from the Bible not from the UPCI. I dont have the right to condem anyone all I know is what my Bible tells me to do. I think you have some issues with the UPCI but you dont know me.
ti66 3 years ago
"baptising them IN THE NAME of the father, AND of the son, AND of the Holy Ghost." Please tell me the name of the father, son, and Holy Ghost. They are descriptive titles of the name so TELL ME THE NAME!!!!!!
ti66 3 years ago
YHWH
artillerysquad 3 years ago
Acts 4:12
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
JESUSISLOVE7777777 3 years ago
and I know we can beat the trinity, its been long time but this is the right time to waste and to lose because the rapture would be delay because of doctrine of man...
moz165 3 years ago
And ALL trinitarians are Dammed? wow dude so full of your own judgment and no mercy for the others. Your statements contradict your "youtube" name!
odeivonimajneb 3 years ago
Trinitarians are splitting hell wide opne for denying Jesus our Lord as fully God ad our Father and setting up the Catholic mongrelized version, which is pagan gentile thought and Babylonian teachings of three persons.
No trinitarians can be saved in that mess your church teaches. You deny one God and Jesus name baptism and Spirit baptism with tongues and Holiness.
SO YOU CANNOT MAKE IT WITH THOSE IDEAS,
DESKIN1967 3 years ago
UR silly to think that our understanding of the Godhead would prevent us from seeing heavenm The T doctrine does NOt deny one God, It insists that there is only 1 GOd,
Sonship is not eternal but the WORD is and JOhn 3 says THe word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, The word is eternal
Question is Flesh a person? if not How can the Son = Flesh
liberatedvialove 2 years ago
Woe Woe We have a Judge here! wow Tell me "Judge DESKIN1967" What must I do to be saved ? I thought I was, apparently I'm not according to you. When I pray I feel God, when I worship I feel God presence but according to you it must be the Devil whom I feel right? It's all fake this whole christian life I've been living wow You think Jesus might have mentioned that when I talked to Him this morning!!!! wow
odeivonimajneb 2 years ago
they didn't know trinitarians oneness have salvation also, such these doctrines made confusions in this situations, arguing in no end.. the only I say to you just wait and watch about each other in order to know what is real....
moz165 3 years ago
no we cant...because one is right and one is wrong..and souls must be saved..it's not God's will for souls to b in confusion. im telling you, show me where baptism what done in titles and not done in the name and i will renounce oneness
JESUSISLOVE7777777 3 years ago 3
God only knows the truth.... what I said the good news was us oneness and trinitarians this is very serious...... our brothers were protestants.....they are not wrong they worship only one God Christ.... same to us....if I'm deceiving you just wait the sequence of the world...
moz165 3 years ago
when I'm bible study at in upc I wonder why Jesus Christ call the Son of God, He always talks about to His followers about His Father (God the Father).... In the crucify in His I won't believe Jesus Christ lie He shouting about His Father if does you will know what I mean but since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one it took me as a same salvation that's it... but I know trinitarians are already know about this about the bible but trinitarians argued our oneness doctrine they.....
moz165 3 years ago
Now I myself use the KJV. I think it is the best english translation. There should be no problem with examining greek or hebrew when we have a slight dissagreement or we need further clarification. The KJV is the Word of God. We should be allowed to study the greek as long as it clears up understanding with a particular verse. That doesnt mean the english is not sufficient. It DOES mean that when we have two separate intepretations,we can only go back to the greek. Sometimes it helps as here.
Secretknowledge75 3 years ago
"since when did grammer become more important then what the Bible says"Jesusislove7777. Do you realize what you are asking? Grammer is the basis of how humans communicate through language. The Bible says nothing,communicates nothing without grammar. The very fact you know that Jesus rose from the dead,is because of grammer. The words comprised deliever a specific meaning in the english grammer. Why would the english be surperior to the greek grammer?? Are you really serious??
Secretknowledge75 3 years ago
This is a good debate, but I think it is very biased of the moderator to to say that the non-UPC guys are representatives of Orthodox Christianity without defining what they mean with Orthodox Christianity. What does it mean to be Orthodox? Is it to be representing the largest denomination in the world? If so, they should be Roman Catholics. It would be more precise to say that they are Trinitarian Protestants or whatever denomination they are.
autofire07 3 years ago
English language is fine for me since i dont speak greek. that's one thing i dont like about mr martin. which greek is he using???
filoIII 3 years ago
He is using the same greek as the Apostles used. It is important to get a Strongs Concordance. Check it out.
warmouth 3 years ago
beware of strong's. they use much of the corrupt manuscripts
filoIII 3 years ago
Like I said, they help. Understanding the proper grammar is key in Biblical exegesis. As these Trinitarians have proved.
warmouth 3 years ago
dude since when did grammer become more important then what the Bible says?
JESUSISLOVE7777777 3 years ago
The Greek the Bible original manuscripts were written in koine greek. You as well as I use the TR manucripts by which the KJV translation came about. I use the KJV also and love that translation. I still think someone with 6yrs of koine greek as Martin had who has looked at copies such as the TR,GS,MR,etc should be listened to even if we dont agree fully. The originals were written in koine greek while the english language was in its infancy.
Secretknowledge75 3 years ago
Dr. Martin is on it. You have to rightly divide the Word of Truth. The UPC guys are not well studied. They believe what they believe in and that's it. These are the leaders.
cincytuckyblk 3 years ago 2