Forbidden Science: A One Minute Geology Bomb ! ...

[lawilson200]

Good grief, if anyone who needs a serious look at scripture, it is you. I would first start in Exodus 20:1-17, with particular refelction on Exodus 20:3 and 20:16.

First, you could not have started with a worst example to support your cause, you do not get huge meanders like Big Bend, Utah if it were rapidly eroded. Having studied MSH for 30 years, I can tell you there is a big difference between volcanism (MSH) and deserts. You know something, we are smart enough to know the difference.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 I'm not familiar with Big Bend, UT, as my field is astronomy, and I am not claiming that slower erosion cannot occur at all, or that deserts were created by volcanoes. What I am saying here is that most sedimentary rock on this planet was laid down by a global flood. The MSH reference is there to prove that layers can indeed occur instantly through hydrologic sorting, something that geologists often seem to overlook. And look, I really am not your enemy, you needn't label me "liar"

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 - We just started our discussion and already you are accussing me of something which I have yet to do. I have not called you a liar (at least, not yet).

Let me guess, the photograph you used is something you found off the Internet, but you were not aware as to where it was taken. A common mistake, but let this be a lesson to you to be more careful.

Mount St Helens only shows that volcanic eruptions can be quite catastrophic. It doesn't show how limestone formed "rapidly."

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 OK, well, you asked me to "reflect" on the ninth commandment.

Looky, there are indeed deep layers of sediment at Mt St Helens, all laid down in one day, that exhibit many the typical "layers" that you see at the Grand Canyon and elsewhere. All produced by hydrologic sorting, not "millions of years" of deposition. I'm sure you know about these. My only point is that such strata indeed forms, or at least can form, rapidly. That's all. Surely you agree. Shall I find the pictures?

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 Listen, i am a former geologist. Mount St Helens is not only in my backyard, but I got to watch the 1980 eruption from my parent's house (I was a high school teenager at the time). I have worked at MSH. I have worked at the Grand Canyon. The only location the two places have in common is found at Torroweap, the site of an extinct volcano. I know the flaw in your argument. I have seen it many times. You have been provided wrong information on uniformitarianism.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 I know you know your geology, but I question your interpretation. In astronomy the 14.5B yr big bang is the consensus as well, yet everyone conveniently ignores what is called the horizon problem (there has not been enough time for the universe to equalize in temperature - yet it is remarkably uniform). So, I ask you, are there deep formations at MSH, all beautifully layered into flat strata, that were formed in a day? All I am saying is that this sort of formation may be young.

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 - I thought the lastest date for the universe was 13.7 Ga. You do realize (I hope) that one has nothing to do with the other.

The thickest deposits (landslide and pfs) were near the flanks and base of the volcano that became increasingly more shallow the further away from the mountain you go. MSH lost approximately 1,300 feet in elevation and 3 Km(3) in the largest landslide in recorded history. That's a lot of material, which was spread out across 28 mi(2).

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 You're right, sorry I just spouted off the old number. In fact it was 10 billion when I went to school. No, no relation to geology I hope! Yes, Mt St Helens was an exciting event. The layers I referred to were in a canyon downhill from the Spirit Lake if I remember. The layers came from the mix of the ash and water, not the ash alone. Do you remember what I'm talking about? I can go hunt for it but perhaps you'll remember.

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 I am not sure what you are referring to.

Over the years, drainage channels have developed, some of these are about 30 to 40 ft deep. MSH receives 600 to 700 inches of precip per year (snow and rain). Add to the absence of vegetation (for the first 15 years after) and very steep slopes and what results is a high rate of erosion. Erosion has slow down over the past decade, but it is still higher than before May 18, 1980. Austin I know, like to point to a 1982 event though.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 Well, Ok. Good. And I think today geologists will generally confirm that layers can be laid down quickly. As an amateur astronomer, I've always found it humorous that geologists vigourously deny the possibility of a worldwide flood on a planet that is 70% water and which, if flattened, would be 2 miles underwater, while astrogeologists suggest that Mars, a bone dry desert planet, experienced a global flood sometime in the past.

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 Excuse me? I am going to head back to one of my original points. Where you are presently tripping up, its over this doctrine called uniformitarianism. You do realize that you have been sold a bill of goods. Uniformity has been built up into some kind of boggyman. Seriously, you are not going to understand anything until you excise the bad programming you seemed to have received from your pastor and other YEC resources.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 I'm not one to deliberately react to a boggyman. I'm willing to hear the new discoveries and consider the science. On the other hand, I do not insist on a naturalistic precondition. When the physics ends at the big bang and the scientists speculate about a "matter-antimatter imbalance" or "infinite universes" or a "unbalanced quantum fluctuation" I describe such total guesses as naturalistic religion/poor thermodynamics. I prefer to ascribe a creation to a creator than to "nothing"

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 I don't have an interest in asronomy and you are not answering the base issue. What's makes you think a single volcanic eruption provide support for Noah's Flood? Science only cares about the natural world. The term naturalistic precondition is meaningless. There is nothing wrong with subscribing to a religious faith. I am a lifelong member of the Episcopal Church. But, you dishoner God by trying to make it into a science. Reflect again on Exodus 20:3.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 Here's the problem: "What's makes you think a single volcanic eruption provide support for Noah's Flood?" I don't. I am using MSH as proof that layers that have formed rapidly might "look" old. I'm not focusing on the volcano but rather on the local flood deposition. It is my contention that all over the world geologists possessing a naturalistic precondition observe flood deposits from Noah's flood, then label them "millions of years old". Such layers can be laid down quickly.

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 "I'm not focusing on the volcano but rather on the local flood deposition." What "local flood deposition?" What are you talking about? Do you even know how to recognize flood sediments?

Your "contention?" This isn't a school debate.

Several factors determine rate of deposition (erosion). Sometimes they are gradual. Sometimes they are catastrophic. Uniformitarianism is a methodology and not a theory. Age however is not determined by the rate of deposition (erosion).

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 The mud from the ash of the volcano and the water from the Spirit Lake left a deposition with nice pretty layers - all in one day. Therefore, layers like this can form quickly, they need not be millions of years old. That is all I am claiming.

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 Mud from volcanic ash and water from Spirit Lake? Do yourself a favor. Put down Austin and read a good article on the 1980 eruption. Go to the USGS website and type in Mount St Helens in the search engine. Look for Lynn Topinka

Mudflows (lahars) were generated mainly by pfs melting the glaciers on the mountain, but overall left behind little deposit. Today, you need to know what to look for. No water was released from Spirit Lake and it left no deposit.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 OK, give me a few days to investigate this and then we can discuss it again!

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 Take all of the time you need.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 Greetings again. I finally tracked down a good picture of what I was talking about. I have posted this video "Geo-Blunder: No "Millions of Years"!" which discusses how strata can form very quickly. I'll be putting a few more up this week as well. I did it!

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 So what is wrong with legitimate sources? I am not understanding this. The people working at the David A Johnston Cascade Volcano Observatory in Vancouver, WA have spent their entire careers studying and monitoring Mount St Helens. They know the volcano and its geology inside and out. Yet, you want me to view resources from people who never even visited Mount St Helens, let alone never conducted a proper geological field investigation? Why is this not bothersome to you?

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 This is a strange comment indeed. Did you not see the layers with your own eyes? These strata were created in seconds. Thus layers do not take "millions of years". Have your friends in Vancouver missed the point? (The host has a PhD in geology by the way. He's also the one who discovered the vertical tree trunks at the lake bottom)

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 You did not answer my question. The people at the CVO are examples of being a legitimate resouirce. They have spent their entire careers studying and monitoring volcanoes at Mount St Helens and other volcanoes around the world. Yet, you seem to be ignoring the substance of their work, prefering instead to listen to people who have little to no background at Mount St Helens . If you want me to treat you seriously, please answer the question.

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 - "The host has a PhD in geology by the way. He's also the one who discovered the vertical tree trunks at the lake bottom"

Austin's PhD is from Penn State. He did not "discover" the Spirit Lake trees. It was Harold G Coffin who wrote the papers on the orientation of trees washed into Spirit Lake and attempted to make the connection between the Spirit Lake Trees and other locations like Yellowstone. Austin assisted with the work, but did not write the papers.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 Looky, all I've ever been trying to claim is that the pretty layers that I was taught in school formed over "millions of years" actually occur almost instantly, or at least can do so. Surely you agree with that after seeing my little clip? Generalizing, if it can happen there, it can happen elsewhere. I believe most sedimentary rock was formed during Noah's flood, and the evidence of these layers at Mt. St. Helens supports it, but of course geologists are not allowed to believe that

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 I am not certain if you know or recognize the underlying point to the use of Mount St Helens in this discussion.. I am in the process of composing a PM and I will send it as soon as it is ready.

Just know this, you are wrong. The events of 1980 show, volcanoes can do mean and nasty things. There were no surprises and nothing different then hundreds of other volcanoes around the world. Are you saying the so-called flood was a volcanic eruption?

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 asks: "Are you saying the so-called flood was a volcanic eruption?" No, of course not. All I am saying is that if you mix dirt and water and let millions of tons of it race around, that it will settle out in nice distinct layers. That's all I'm saying. Isn't that true? But that's not what I was taught - I was taught that those layers were formed over "millions of years". And why? I was being fed an old-earth religious interpretation that was contrary to the facts.

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 You keep making the same mistake over and over again. Time is not measured by rates of sedimentation. This is afterall, what you mean when you say: "millions of years.' i doubt that anyone "taught" you this.

However, if you want to understand flood features, then you need to study known floods and one of the best the the Channeled Scablands. After 100 floods, there was lots of erosion, but little deposition. MSH does not help you though.

[alyosha24601]

@lawilson200 So, if time was not measured by rates of sedimentation (I was taught that it was back in the 70's!) then, could it be that the Grand Canyon was formed in one year? Is that possible? (All I've been arguing this whole time is that strata can form quickly, that's it)

[lawilson200]

@alyosha24601 - Another straw man and false argument. The Grand Canyon represents a mountain range taller than today's Himalayas, a transitioning sea, at least five oceans, a river delta and a massive desert. There isn't a mystery with the processes involved with the development of the Grand Canyon and the surrounding area.

The story is different with the formation of the canyon and it must be viewed in context of the entire Colorado Plateau. Age is about 6 ma.

[SkepticalAaron]

@alyosha24601

It could not be that the canyon was formed in one year. All sedimentary rocks are not that same or even close to being the same,so one process,especially a flood,cannot be responsible for all the different types of sedimentary rock found in the GC. And on top of there being many kinds of sedimentary rocks,there are also a variety of sedimentary features that also cannot be explained by a single event. Perpendicular running river beds in the Temple Butte is just one.