Below in the comments you will find some idiot arguing about religion, faith, race, hitler, hell, and how cool living in an eternal gated community MUST be. To enjoy the video just scroll on back to the top.
@ tigersforchrist. You are a perfect example of a brainwashed minion of some money grubbing "pastor" who does as told, votes as told, never ever shows any intellectual curiosity. So eat your god, (gross!) drink his blood (sicko!), engage in all the rituals of cannibalism. And keep quoting that edited version of your mythology instead of reading the whole book- sucker. You've been had until you read the whole King James!
Only a REAL FOOL would claim there is no God! Man creates awesome skyscrapers, fake hearts, tunnels, vehicles etc.. If we are very imperfect then what more can God create THE UNIVERSE! You must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior to receive eternal rest in heaven! Simple! John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him! Repent & accept Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ or HELL?!? Visit cbn. com
Clearly this man has never heard bad religion. I get it's suppose to be a funny song and I'm not offended by it, it just makes no sense he's saying it as if Atheists were a congregation a collective group as oppose to just a stance on whether or not you believe in god. I guess misconceptions are.. hilarious?
Oh,settle down, people! To this particular atheist, this is just plain old funny! We could ALL use a good sense of humor--and where better to start than with the sublime Steve Martin!
Mando- the only "crybaby" you hear from us is about blatant defiance of the Separation of The Church and State. You'll be mighty thankful for our efforts to date when radical Muslims want their barbarous Sharia law written on courthouse walls just like you want to impose stuff from your mythology on us. Illegally.
The Founders intended religion to be a personal matter, to be kept out of a rational government. Behave that way and see how well things go without the likes of "Batshit Crazy" Bachma
I'll start taking atheists seriously when they stop acting like whiny crybabies. My fellow Christians will only be taken seriously when they actually practice the tolerance they preach. There are idiots on both sides. Can't we just coexist in peace?
@johnprescottonline Nothing exposes the truth quite like a good joke; And as an Arguing Aetheist (we don't practice, we reason and make clear and accurate arguments ) I still think that godless rock and roll got us the best of the music deal!
@HeaLeYYYYY You will meet God at the end of your life's journey. You may not believe in God, but he does believe in you. So, for now... believe what you want.
@dirkbag22 I don't believe in fairies. I accept that there is a slim chance that fairies exist, but my knowledge of the world is opposed to the typical description of fairies. I would need strong evidence to start believing in fairies. This does not make me agnostic about fairies, though. If someone asks me whether I believe in fairies, I say "no." Not "I don't know." I'm an afairyist. This is how many atheists view atheism. It's not about complete certainty, as you imply.
@dirkbag22 I'm not sure how I contradicted myself. We never have 100% certainty, but that doesn't mean we have to say "I don't know" to everything. If I was asked whether I believe I will wake up tomorrow, my answer is going to be "yes." There's a very real possibility that I won't, but based on my current knowledge and experience, it seems highly likely that I'll wake up tomorrow as I usually do.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
@dirkbag22 Amen! I have seen plenty of evidence that God exists. Just look at the delicate ecosystem around you, the glorious night sky, and the complexity of your own body. When you look at the faces on Mt. Rushmore, you know that someone created them, not random wind and rain!
@V1de0Lovr We have evidence people created Mount Rushmore, and have plenty of familiarity with sculpture. However, the night sky clearly arose naturally, as did the human species and the ecosystems around us. Humanity was able to clearly observe the creation of the Rushmore sculptures. Not a very good analogy, and a display of a very, very mediocre understanding of the sciences. Thanks for the video though, love steve martin. I have a hunch he's an atheist too :)
@dirkbag22 well, why do they keep asking me to "soak in it"? And then you say that I have to "soak in the evidence"? Coincidence? Why else do they say I need to "wash away my sins with His Word"? Yes! God exists... and he wants me to have softer hands while I do dishes!
@dirkbag22 Assuming you're not a troll, you're completely wrong. No atheist says, "I know for a fact no God exists." We say, "There is no considerable evidence for such an extreme claim, therefore I will stick to the null hypothess of atheism."
@Sweepingreaper4 You sure you're not speaking for the Agnostics? Even a reasonable Gnostic will admit to a lack of evidence for their belief, instead making a faith-based decision to believe in "God." I don't see why Atheists would condescend to engage in a theological discussion as it has no pertinence to their personal life.
@deadthingdan "I don't see why Atheists would condescend to engage in a theological discussion as it has no pertinence to their personal life."
Because theists kill, torture, and abuse children and others based on their compulsion to do so in connection with "god" delusions without rational thought or reasonable justification.
"Faith" is a mental illness that's a danger to those afflicted as well as those around them.
That's a rather broad generalization. Yes, there are people who use "faith" as an excuse to horrible things, but it's delusional to put us all in the same category. There's nutters and then there are people who actually try to live by an agreed upon code of ethics and morals. Believe, those who aren't nutters and have a backbone act and speak against evil. Calling faith a disease is rude. Most of the atheists I've met have more respect than that.
@deadthingdan You're entitled to try to "sell" irrational belief in your blood cult online, and I'm entitled to point out that it's nonsense.
"those who... have a backbone act and speak against evil." Hum.
True evil such as the disease of unreasoning faith spread to extract cash, cause fear and guilt, and demonize gays and minorities. If your morality comes from the bible, then it's borne of genocide, slavery, child abuse, hate, and fear. Talk about rude!
@dan91709 I'm not straight nor am I Christian, but I have respect for others because I expect it from others. I don't ask people for money. I ask them for tolerance and understanding. You sound as daft as those nutters on the side of the road during a pride parade with their signs declaring "GOD HATES FAGS!" Seriously, you're a disgrace to rational thinkers everywhere.
@deadthingdan I couldn't care less that you think ridiculing irrational hate, anti-gay legislation, religious indoctrination in public schools, and mindless stupidity is "rude." LMAO!
Your support of death cults, human sacrifice worship, making kids drink the symbolic blood of a torture victim, and the ridicule of logic and critical thinking is noted. You can crawl back under your rock now.
@dan91709 redundant much? You'd better be really attractive if you're going to counteract your complete lack of a brain. Though I really hope you're not. I'd hate to think an idiot like you could possibly continue polluting the gene pool.
@deadthingdan Married and divorced in a less than 10 minutes? Great Undead Zombie Gawd of the Bible Belt! You're worse than Kim Kardashian at a swap meet!
If one day you wake up to realize that it's not a good idea for people to mindlessly spew hate for people merely because they're different - or that people that don't believe in the very same imaginary friends are worthy of eternal torture - then you can consider yourself enlightened. Until then, ridicule is the least of your worries.
@deadthingdan Yes, I do have that affect on both men and women. My ruggedly handsome frame, masculine but gentle face, impeccable character, moral certitude, and wonderfully sharing fun-loving nature with (dare I say) such incredible intellectual acuity. (sigh)
It is an awesome burden. Women and men (such as yourself) fall in love at the drop of a hat...
Even though you don't say "I know for a fact that no God exists" Atheism is still DISBELIEVING in God due to a lacking of evidence. Correct me if I'm wrong.
As a follower of Christ I believe in God.. but why is believing in something you can't see more crazy than disbelieving in something you can't see? There's no evidence that God exists but there isn't any to prove that he doesn't exist.
Agnosticism makes a little more sense to me than atheism.
@Pumpkin3844 Your first paragraph is correct. There is no evidence that God does not exist. There is also no evidence against unicorns, smurf, Zues, or the flying spaghetti monster but I would bet you are not agnostic in respect to them are you? There is no evidence for them so you don't believe in them.
By your logic, I should believe in other things that there is no evidence against existing because I believe in God.
But what I'm saying is that I respectfully disagree, because the reason I believe in God has nothing to do with there being no evidence against His existence. I apologize for the confusion. I was just trying to make a point earlier.
It's all about having faith, and being rewarded for our faith. God doesn't give us evidence for the same reason he doesn't present himself clearly to the world.. he wants us to believe in Him, and truely love Him. If he showed himself everyone would feel obligated to worship Him, and Love Him... but he wants us to CHOOSE all that, which is why he gave us freewill to begin with. It wouldn't be real love if he forced everyone to love Him.
@Pumpkin3844 Okay, if I were to give in to this illogic and that having faith in something without any evidence is virtuous, where do I start? There are thousands upon thousands of Gods.
I think that's entirely up to you. I can't force you to believe in Him, nor do I want to.
If you'd like, you could start with asking some basic questions such as
"Why/how am I here?"
"Why/how does this world exist?"
"If this universe didn't exist, what would?(kind of a scary thought)"
I mean really all you have to do is look around. Sure there's a scientific explanation as to how the world functions, but how did it all start?What created science itself?
@Pumpkin3844 You do realize asking the questions you have just outlined is *EXACTLY* what made most Atheists become Atheists? They are all questions no religion can answer satisfactorily.
@Pumpkin3844 I try my best to believe nothing, and so far it has yet to fail me. There are however a great many things i trust though, but belief and trust are not the same thing. Trust is based on evidence and past reliability, belief is based on wishful thinking.
@MexSanukk I'm glad to hear thus far your attempt to believe nothing has served you well. And you're right faith (if I may substitute that with belief) is different than trust. Scripture itself says so. Hebrews 11.1.
I hope, for your sake, it continues to work well for you. But if not, Jesus is big on extending love and forgiveness to those who've once turned their back on him. I know I am one.
@kevb0527 Jesus is big on extending love and forgiveness?
Really?
You do know that before him the was *NO* eternal SUFFERING in hell don't you? Not much love, or forgiveness there, if you ask me. Good job neither hell, or jesus actually exist!
@MexSanukk Hmm. No suffering in hell before Jesus. You may want to refer to the Old Testament before you make that statement. Depending on the version, they refer to hell as Sheol or hell or some type of statement about being eternally apart from God.
Also, it seems based on the grounds that something is conceptually difficult to understand you simply write it off as non-existent. That mentality will certainly prove to be a disservice in life.
@kevb0527 I made no claims about no suffering at all, I was referring specifically to *ETERNAL* suffering in *HELL*, I'm not sure if you misread that or are trying to move the goalposts without anybody noticing LOL
RE 'difficult to understand' Again you are claiming something different to what I said, don't worry though I am more than used to these tactics from theists, but to clarify, neither exist as described in the bible, because neither *CAN* exist as described.
@MexSanukk I mentioned hell in my response to that. See above. I'm not trying to do anything sly. Where are you getting your information about no hell prior to Christ bc Scripture does reference eternity apart from God in the OT?
Also, I'm not smart enough to use tactics. I'm just putting the pieces together as I read them. I seems you can't find logic for Christ to exists as Scripture describes him so you're writing him off as non-existent. That's all.
@kevb0527 There is NO mention of hell in the OT, it only comes with the /loving/ christ update (there is actually no mention of jesus in the OT either, but that's another discussion LOL).
The fact you use the word logic in the same sentence as christ (without saying they are mutually exclusive) shows you do not have a very good grasp of logic. Again refer back to a previous post of mine where I state faith is just wishful thinking, and as such it has no honest place in the real world.
@MexSanukk "...faith is just wishful thinking, and as such it has no honest place in the real world." I beg to differ, friend. You order food at a restaurant, you demonstrate faith. You go hunting with a friend, you demonstrate faith. You fall asleep next to your spouse, you demonstrate faith. So, yes, faith does have a very real place in a very real world, and it would be illogical not to think so.
@MexSanukk Oh, and hell is a doctrine that developed as the result of church leaders riding roughshod over the original languages, many years after the Gospels were written. Nothing Scriptural about it. I'm sure you heard the whole "Hell only comes from Jesus meek and mild" bit from Hitchens, but that's gravely inaccurate. Which I think is funny, because atheists accuse Christians of quoting folks who err (biblical authors), yet they're so quick to quote folks who also err. Strange.
@adabsurdum55 Although I am a big fan of Hitch, and he is greatly missed, I did not get this from him. I got it from actually reading the bible. Reading the bible was the main thing that turned me into an Atheist.
@MexSanukk Get what from him? The "Hell comes from Jesus meek and mild" line is a direct quote from one of his debates. I want to say it was the one with William Lane Craig, but I'm not sure. Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with the Bible, friend. Do share.
@adabsurdum55 It may well be a direct quote, but that doesn't mean that was the first time I came across the fact.
I didn't have a bad experience with the bible, finding out it was ludicrous rubbish was a wonderful experience. All I had to do to discover this was to actually read the thing rather than restrict myself to the verses I was preached. Most of the Atheists I know became so the same way. Most christians *NEVER* actually read the book they claim is the holly word of god.
@MexSanukk I would say faith is complete trust in something unseen, a little stronger than mere belief. You have faith the restaurant employee isn't slipping something in your meal, your friend won't turn his weapon on you, etc. So true what you say about Christians not reading the Scriptures, but what was so ludicrous about them? And you say you came across the fact? What fact? That Hitchens was mistaken? Or did you agree?
@adabsurdum55 No, I do NOT have faith the chef isn't going to poison me, or a friend will shoot me, I trust that they will not. Faith is based on *NOTHING*, trust is based on knowledge, evidence, and past performance. There is a big difference.
What is ludicrous in the bible? Err, talking snakes, donkeys, bushes, EVERY animal in the world fitting in one small boat, the victim of rape has to marry her rapist, the list goes on and on.
@MexSanukk And I'll admit the talking snakes, donkeys, and bushes are hard to swallow. But you honestly don't think these can be accounted for? For instance, the Torah was probably written during Israel's exile. Until then, the stories were passed down orally from generation to generation. What if these were real events (e.g. archaeology suggests there was a flood, just not on such a large scale) that were mythologized over time? If not, should we reject any verifiable historical accuracies?
@adabsurdum55 There are two possibilities 1) the bible is the true and PERFECT word of the creator god. 2) it's a collection of old oral traditions that carry no more weight than any other. If 1 is the case there should be no possibility of corruption as being this supreme beings ONLY physical place to list his rules, apparently he can create the universe and everything in it out of nothing in less than a week, but can't keep his own holy book in order? If 2 why should we care?
@MexSanukk Ah. Perfect example. So when I went to jump school, the NCOs told us, "Trust your equipment. Have faith in the riggers." I had NO idea who packed my parachute. No evidence. No track record. No name. So...my jumping from the plane was an act of faith, an act of COMPLETE TRUST in something (in this case, someone) unseen, which meets my original definition. Again, we can't say life is devoid of faith.
@adabsurdum55 Yes that is a perfect example of somebody using the WRONG word. Trust applies in BOTH cases here. See my example about the unknown car driver for more of an explanation of why.
@MexSanukk This is seriously my last comment, and I'll let you reply. I know we don't want to argue semantics, but I must say you're right, faith is based on nothing (that is, without past experience). However, we can't say life is completely devoid of faith. If a recruit walks into a recruiting office and enlists, he trusts his recruiters, but he has faith that he's made the right decision. At least, that's how it would be understood. The scope of its meaning isn't limited to religion.
@adabsurdum55 His recruiters DO have a proven track-record, he CAN have a conversation DIRECTLY with them about anything he is concerned about, and they will directly ANSWER him in person. How can you suggest this is even similar to religious belief, where NONE of this is true?
@MexSanukk Lastly, you say it's an oppressive religion. How so? Also, you're suggesting you can't have faith in people? Like in an elected official new to office?
@adabsurdum55 Oppressive religion: It is a religion of hate and it is a religion of fear, so yes, I find it very oppressive.
Faith in officials: No, like I said before you trust them or don't trust them, even if you really insist on playing the semantics game. Do you equate the faith the religious have in their god, with the 'faith' they have in an elected official? The two are not even nearly close.
@MexSanukk“ Do you equate the faith the religious have in their god, with the ‘faith’ they have in an elected official?”
Actually, yeah. Kyrios and basileia (Lord and kingdom) have political connotations. The idea behind the Kingdom of Heaven is that it spreads throughout the world (through love, healing, charity, etc.) until heaven comes down to earth and God enacts his reign permanently. You know, "King of kings, Lord of lords."
@MexSanukk I believe I said the recruit trusts his recruiters but has faith that he made the right decision (faith in himself?). Again, you said, “Faith is something you know cannot be proven.” At the moment of the recruit’s signing, nothing is proven. At least, not for that recruit (I know because I’ve been there). Thus he has acted in faith. If this is his first big life decision, he has no track record, nothing. So again, we can’t say life is devoid of faith. If I’m driving and a car is...
@adabsurdum55 Can you please *STOP* using 'faith' and 'trust' as interchangeable words, as I have pointed out several times now they are *NOT* I know a great many theists would love them to be (just as they would love Atheism to be a religion), as this helps them muddy the waters, but they are not interchangeable!
@MexSanukk Can't I use faith and trust interchangeably? Because I've found a few dictionaries that do. Here's one from my laptop (they even using a politician example!): "complete trust or confidence in someone or something: this restores one's faith in politicians." We also say, "God is our Trust," and "In God We Trust." So...right, when there is faith, trust applies. Complete trust. No evidence. I jumped with no evidence of my rigger doing his job correctly. I drive with no evidence of the...
@MexSanukk (cont.) passing driver's competence. "Anybody that has driven for any length of time has a huge amount of experience..." Where's the evidence for that? Also, you said, "Without knowing a single thing about this specific driver we trust them to behave in the same, legal way..." Sounds like you've violated your definition of trust, friend. Don't know a thing about this driver? Meaning, no evidence? Only presumptions? Hm. Something's wrong here.
@MexSanukk (cont.) approaching, I don’t have that person’s driving record. Heck, they may not have a driver’s license. In that moment, I have no evidence whether that person is going to stay in his or her lane. So do I trust this person (which you say requires evidence/track record, etc.) or do I have faith in this person?
@adabsurdum55 Cars do actually exist, anybody that has driven for any length of time has had a huge amount of experience with other drivers, we know what most drivers would do, and without knowing a single thing about this specific driver we trust them to behave in the same, legal way (presumably if they are on the roads they passed a test). Sometimes this trust is not deserved, this is when accidents/crashes happen. Trust is based on REALITY faith is based on NOTHING!
@MexSanukk And a religion of hate? How so? Also, in regard to your two possibilities, I’m not an inerrantist, so the first is out. As for the second, the Bible contains oral stories, it is not itself an oral story. The Bible is holistic in that it shares the same theme: God. It is not holistic in terms of genre, chronology, author, intended audience, etc. And why should we care? Well, why shouldn’t we? Whole civilizations were constructed around the words therein...
@adabsurdum55 Religion of hate, ask the gay men that have been killed by good christians, ask Jessica Ahlquist (and family) who has received death threats, and messages from people hoping she gets raped because she requested an ILLEGAL banner be removed. Look at the #godIsNotGreat tag on twitter when Hitch died, count the christians issuing death threats, praying for disease, and misfortune to befall the Atheist who were referencing a BOOK TITLE. Does this show love/tolerance?
@MexSanukk Hm. You're saying the religion is hateful because we have examples of its followers being hateful, correct? So when Eric Harris walked into Columbine High School and began firing, he was wearing a t-shirt that read, "Natural Selection," and there were reports of the two asking victims if they were Christians before firing. We also have the Stalinist regime persecuting the Russian Church, and let's not forget the persecutions behind the bamboo curtain. So how should I regard atheism?
@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So I...
@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So I...
@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So I...
@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So I...
@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So no,
@MexSanukk (cont.) this does not show tolerance and love, (though that's a funny question to ask if you already regard the religion as intolerant and hateful) but it is inconsistent with our belief system. Despite the examples I gave, I'd never say atheism is intolerant or hate-filled (probably a better word than hateful, huh?), because I know to base my opinion of a belief (or non-belief) system on a few knuckleheads is unfair and judgmental, which also violates my religious convictions.
@adabsurdum55 If the book is not the perfect word of a creator god, why should we treat it so? Why should I be forced to pay more respect to this than to say The Code of Hammurabi for example? If it is not the immutable word of god (which it clearly is not), it deserves *NO* special privileges, and therefore neither do religions based on it.
@MexSanukk "If the book is not the perfect word of a creator god, why should we treat it so?" Firstly, books, not book. Secondly, the Bible is a collection of books written by imperfect men about a perfect God. And we, as Christians, trust (because we have history and MSS to support many of them) these authors and have faith in the God they're communicating. Whether you reject the claims or not, it does deserve special privilege because of its historical and cultural significance. Why more...
@MexSanukk (cont.) We see a progression in humanity’s understanding of its relationship with the earth and the greater something they trusted was there (note I said “trusted” because to them Creation was evidence for a Creator). Military leaders still read Sun Tsu and Clausewitz. Students still read the Illiad and the Odyssey (there’s an oral tradition). But why should they care?
@adabsurdum55 I read the bible far more frequently than most christians do, but I read it as a book. I am not suggesting we destroy every bible in the world (in fact the idea is abhorrent to me), all I am saying is treat it for what it is, a book, nothing more. The generals reading Sun Tsu, and von Clausewitz do not think if they fail to follow every word therein they will burn in eternal agony. Books are good, attaching supernatural powers to them is not.
@MexSanukk Right. But there was really no "hell" (in the Western sense of the word) until around the eighth century. Christ's use of Hades is hyperbole in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in Revelation we have the image of Hades being destroyed (20:14). Truth be told, Christ seemed to be a conditionalist (a very Jewish idea). It was life in or outside the kingdom that was in question, not the quality of life.
@MexSanukk It's ironic that you're so stuck on not believing what's illogical but you're you believe hell is not in OT. Again, it may not be named "hell" (look for 'the grave' or 'death' or 'Sheol') but the concept of eternal separation from God is present. Read Deuteronomy. Read 2 Samuel. Read Job. Read Psalms. Read Proverbs. Read Isaiah. Read Ezekiel. Read Amos. Read Jonah. Read Habakkuk. I'm done w this discussion in Youtube. I'll be happy to continue via email. kevinbbarnes@gmail.com
@kevb0527 Sorry I didn't see this until now as somebody flagged it as Spam.
When refer to hell in the OT I can only assume you are referring to the (probably deliberate) mistranslation of שְׁאוֹל (sheol), this word actually means grave, nothing more. It is a common misconception that the OT speaks of hell but when you study the original texts you will find it does not.
Thank you for the offer of going to e-mail, but I prefer public debate where others can see what is being said.
@MexSanukk You lured me back.. Sheol does mean grave but also pit, underworld, darkness, a place of eternal separation from God. Since--as you've suggested--you've studied Hebrew and Aramaic you know Semitics had very few words with just one definition. Their words were "fluid" and conceptual. Sheol means more than grave. I too have studied the original texts on the graduate level. But I'm sure my education means nada to you since you're belligerently content to live in your Sheol of wrongness.
@kevb0527 Words are indeed fluid, which is why the idea of hell has now become attached to שְׁאוֹל a word that ORIGINALLY has no such meaning, it referred only to grave, pit, grave-like holes.
Previously you also claimed גהנם (Gehenna) as another example of hell in the OT, to do this throws doubt on your claims of having studied (or perhaps more likely what you were taught), as this referrers to a specific place just outside ancient Jerusalem, NOT hell.
@dirkbag22 Your faith in male virgin human sacrifice is heartwarming. I'll bet you also ritually drink the symbolic blood of the victim with a symbol of the instrument of his torture hanging overhead (communion). Aren't you glad you believe what you believe because you believe? Otherwise your "all-loving" god would torture you forever...
Everybody ought to follow clergy so a genocidal racist child-killing "god" that kills innocent male virgins so he can forgive you for eating bacon reigns! :-)
@dirkbag22 Hate? Bigotry? Why? It's no secret christians think it's cool to drink the "blood" of a murder victim and hang symbols of his torture in their homes.
Oh, I get it. Stripping the BS from christian dogma and telling the unvarnished truth is "unfair?"
The first step in recovering from your mental illness is to recognize that you have a problem. Talking to imaginary friends is normal when you're 4 or 5 but by adulthood it's a sign of serious illness. Get help. The sooner, the better. :-)
When I asked you to come up with something new that's isn't violent, hateful, rude, anti-gay, sexist, racist, or stupid - it should go without saying that you shouldn't lie or make personal attacks.
How sad for you that this is the best you can do. (sigh)
@dan91709 I see the question was too heady for you. I'm not surprised. Let me say it again - read slowly and let it sink in, because this is the basis for eternity in hell. All hell is, is a world without God. No goodness, no kindness, no hope, no love. Just godlessness. Now if you have spent a lifetime avoiding God, why would God force you to spend forever with Him? Answer that, and stop being so stupidly belligerent and bigoted.
@dirkbag22 "All hell is, is a world without God." I see... Since there is no *real* god, your life must be without love and kindness. How sad. :-(
Maybe if you had said hell is a world without a flying elephant, you'd see how pathetic your reasoning is...
Are you "avoiding" the Flying Elephant because you just don't want to believe? You know that a life without the Flying Elephant is a world without sunshine! "No goodness, no kindness, no hope, no love." Just Elephantlessness!
@dan91709 You're irrational. All atheists are. The rational view of unbelief is agnosticism, but you dare to believe that there is no God, anywhere. You can't possibly know that. God has said, "the fool says in his heart there is no God," and through my experience online, I can tell you that is true. You won't dare answer the question, because you run back to your 'there is no God' mantra - you are filled with anger and hate because like most atheists, your unbelief is emotional.
@dirkbag22 "you dare to believe that there is no God"
I don't believe in a Flying Elephant, Tooth Fairly, or Santa Claus as well, but as to whether your genocidal, child-killing, incest and slavery endorsing father of an "all-powerful" masochistic virgin male human sacrifice type god exists, any monster that requires you to fear AND love it without evidence of its existence and that purports to torture children for wearing blended fabrics, eating bacon, and mere disbelief is patently ridiculous.
@dirkbag22 If there were an "all power, all-loving" god, wouldn't you expect it to do something? If it wanted people to love it, would depend on a 2,000 year old internally inconsistent jumble of superstitions and hatefully racist accounts of murder and genocide written in dead languages to tell you to make its clergy rich? (sigh)
Poor little man. You've been duped; swindled; and cheated. You're a sheep; a slave; a follower; and a fool. You're told when and who to hate by evil liars. It's sad.
@dan91709 I'm still waiting for your answer to this question:
What is with all those evil charlatans like Pat Robertson and Westboro Baptists? Why would your superhuman masochist let creeps prey on his beloved "children?" I mean, if he is the "all-powerful" abused buff blond blue-eyed bronze-age son of a serial killer, what has he done for you lately?
@dirkbag22 Really? I agree, but how do YOU know that? Westboro christians quote the bible and say they believe Jesus died for their sins... How do christians determine one kind of christian is "real" and the others aren't?
Is there a secret handshake? Does "god" send you emails or use a cell phone? Please enlighten me about how you can tell one self-righteous miscreant from another. This should be interesting, :-)
@dirkbag22 I "hate" your "god?" (rolls eyes) That's absurd.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, or Flying Elephants, but I don't "hate" them.
I recognize that your delusion requires this love/hate, black/white, good/evil dichotomy, but in fact your "god" is a figment of your own imagination. It deserves the same respect given a delusional belief in a magical Flying Elephant.
I don't hate you. I pity you for having lost touch with reality and I think your delusion is dangerous to yourself and others.
@dan91709 Oh you are filled with hate. The vast majority of atheists are walking wounded. Someone or something has hurt them. It is unnatural for man not to seek after God.
@dirkbag22 The most loving people on Earth don't need a delusion to justify their genuine desire to help others. They don't "hate" non-existent "magical" creatures at the behest of a people claiming to be the Earthly representatives of a sky daddy.
Believing in belief because you believe isn't a "virtue." It's a disease. It's because I love you - and humanity in general - that I want you cured.
Real love isn't built upon a lie. Love comes from the heart - not a greedy alter.
@dirkbag22 The idea that you need to believe in mythical being so that you are able to love is so sad it hurts my heart. It's not true, of course, but that you think you are without any capacity to love without a belief in a lie is just so terribly terribly sad.
You've proven my point. Your delusion is a mental illness.
@dan91709 I didn't say that. I said that love comes from God. The reason love exists is because God created it. That's why hell is so bad - no love at all.
@dirkbag22 If your god were responsible for love and the bible were true, can you please explain why god killed every living thing on Earth in the "flood," why it holds a grudge against the children of Adam, and why it orders genocide, child abuse, slavery, sexual domination, human sacrifice, and murder? What's the matter. Don't you read the bible?
What do you do if there really is a god but it's a mentally ill child molester and serial killer?
How lucky you are that your "god" is imaginary. :-)
@dirkbag22 Your "faith" is just a series of self-contradictory myths from a bronze age book you picked and chose from to weave a comfortable delusion consistent with your own fears and prejudices. You ignore that your fictional "god" likes genocide, slavery, child abuse, sexism, incest, human and animal sacrifice, and thinks the Earth is both flat and the center of a universe consisting of a bowl with holes in it overhead.
Thing is, if your "god" were real, it wouldn't write such silly crap. :-)
What about every death mettle song?
trollkiller13 4 days ago
Also why the long theological discussions? It's a joke,it's funny, no harm done. don't be a myopic chihuahua. =)
sirlordchadwick 4 days ago
19 people are atheists.
sirlordchadwick 4 days ago
This is one of the greatest comedic songs in history! Cheers me up.
Would those of you trapped in religious discussion (pro/con) please just get a room already?
bccesq 1 week ago
Below in the comments you will find some idiot arguing about religion, faith, race, hitler, hell, and how cool living in an eternal gated community MUST be. To enjoy the video just scroll on back to the top.
opusjosh 1 week ago
We got every song ever written by Neil Pert and preformed by RUSH
HereTodayGone2morro2 1 week ago
@ tigersforchrist. You are a perfect example of a brainwashed minion of some money grubbing "pastor" who does as told, votes as told, never ever shows any intellectual curiosity. So eat your god, (gross!) drink his blood (sicko!), engage in all the rituals of cannibalism. And keep quoting that edited version of your mythology instead of reading the whole book- sucker. You've been had until you read the whole King James!
KatrinaMess 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Only a REAL FOOL would claim there is no God! Man creates awesome skyscrapers, fake hearts, tunnels, vehicles etc.. If we are very imperfect then what more can God create THE UNIVERSE! You must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior to receive eternal rest in heaven! Simple! John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him! Repent & accept Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ or HELL?!? Visit cbn. com
tigersforchrist 1 week ago
i love it!!! thanks!!
LICKEYLOO 1 week ago
Very moving.
deepashtray 1 week ago
I am content not to have a label that I employ as a blanket explanation for unanswered questions. That's just me.
HowdyThere88 2 weeks ago
A sad existence... no hope, no good thoughts on why life is here, and no clue what comes next.
caleb101089 3 weeks ago
@caleb101089 You're very misinformed. Search: "what can atheists celebrate" and watch the 2nd one.
Sweepingreaper4 2 weeks ago
@NextToTheTrash Hahahaha! Brilliant. Thanks for sending me this. I love it. I can't get to you through PM's now, YT is fulla whatever.
hyperdiabolical 3 weeks ago
Wow dumbasses who take Steve Martin, STEVE MARTIN, seriously. A comedian. wtf
samuraistalin 4 weeks ago
I'm an atheist and I do not watch football. LOL!
tomnanD3 1 month ago
Clearly this man has never heard bad religion. I get it's suppose to be a funny song and I'm not offended by it, it just makes no sense he's saying it as if Atheists were a congregation a collective group as oppose to just a stance on whether or not you believe in god. I guess misconceptions are.. hilarious?
ronocko 1 month ago
@ronocko True. Bad Religion. And Greydon Square. And NOFX too.
:P
9393zach 1 month ago
Oh,settle down, people! To this particular atheist, this is just plain old funny! We could ALL use a good sense of humor--and where better to start than with the sublime Steve Martin!
elizprenner 1 month ago 2
"Atheists have rock and roll!!!"
8698gil 1 month ago
14 people aint got no songs
MrDerby2u 1 month ago
This is great, just heard it on the radio. Steve Martin is great, singinf, playing or stand up.
DragonChaserKev 2 months ago 2
Oh... someone's... god... that was awesome.
to my fellow atheists... calm down. it's a lil bit of satire.
AcidniReffup 2 months ago 9
Why did they all hold their instruments when they weren't going to play them
hastyscorpion1 2 months ago
Christians get so much crap. It's about time someone has the balls to flip it on them.
pinkyvaught 2 months ago in playlist Liked videos
Mando- the only "crybaby" you hear from us is about blatant defiance of the Separation of The Church and State. You'll be mighty thankful for our efforts to date when radical Muslims want their barbarous Sharia law written on courthouse walls just like you want to impose stuff from your mythology on us. Illegally.
The Founders intended religion to be a personal matter, to be kept out of a rational government. Behave that way and see how well things go without the likes of "Batshit Crazy" Bachma
KatrinaMess 2 months ago
I'll start taking atheists seriously when they stop acting like whiny crybabies. My fellow Christians will only be taken seriously when they actually practice the tolerance they preach. There are idiots on both sides. Can't we just coexist in peace?
...not on the internet, I guess.
MandoPony 2 months ago
@johnprescottonline Nothing exposes the truth quite like a good joke; And as an Arguing Aetheist (we don't practice, we reason and make clear and accurate arguments ) I still think that godless rock and roll got us the best of the music deal!
KatrinaMess 2 months ago
Holy shit, this is a joke here people, chuckle, chuckle. Nothing brings out more disrespect in a person than the internet.
johnprescottonline 2 months ago
God is not real and you are all retarded. Until God comes to earth and shows me he is real then I have no reason to believe in any sort of god.
HeaLeYYYYY 2 months ago
@HeaLeYYYYY You will meet God at the end of your life's journey. You may not believe in God, but he does believe in you. So, for now... believe what you want.
sue3843 2 months ago
We have Rock and Roll! Us Aetheists definitely got the deal on songs.
KatrinaMess 2 months ago 7
I can't believe Dave is actually holding up an LP !! Can you still buy those today?
PhantomDrums917 2 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The sorry thing about atheism is the belief that they know for a fact no God exists in any fashion throughout the universe. Highly irrational.
dirkbag22 2 months ago
@dirkbag22 I don't believe in fairies. I accept that there is a slim chance that fairies exist, but my knowledge of the world is opposed to the typical description of fairies. I would need strong evidence to start believing in fairies. This does not make me agnostic about fairies, though. If someone asks me whether I believe in fairies, I say "no." Not "I don't know." I'm an afairyist. This is how many atheists view atheism. It's not about complete certainty, as you imply.
DarkDiscordian 2 months ago 3
@DarkDiscordian You are therefore contradicting yourself.
dirkbag22 2 months ago
@dirkbag22 I'm not sure how I contradicted myself. We never have 100% certainty, but that doesn't mean we have to say "I don't know" to everything. If I was asked whether I believe I will wake up tomorrow, my answer is going to be "yes." There's a very real possibility that I won't, but based on my current knowledge and experience, it seems highly likely that I'll wake up tomorrow as I usually do.
DarkDiscordian 2 months ago 2
@DarkDiscordian Agnosticism, though you deny it.
dirkbag22 2 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@dirkbag22 Amen! I have seen plenty of evidence that God exists. Just look at the delicate ecosystem around you, the glorious night sky, and the complexity of your own body. When you look at the faces on Mt. Rushmore, you know that someone created them, not random wind and rain!
V1de0Lovr 2 months ago
@V1de0Lovr We have evidence people created Mount Rushmore, and have plenty of familiarity with sculpture. However, the night sky clearly arose naturally, as did the human species and the ecosystems around us. Humanity was able to clearly observe the creation of the Rushmore sculptures. Not a very good analogy, and a display of a very, very mediocre understanding of the sciences. Thanks for the video though, love steve martin. I have a hunch he's an atheist too :)
chessmeister 2 months ago
@V1de0Lovr
I can't tell if your trolling or serious.
mihungl0 2 months ago
@dirkbag22 actually, we will believe in any god that's out there. There's just gotta be evidence for its existence. Easy!
eddygoombah 2 months ago
@eddygoombah Well then start soaking in the evidence.
dirkbag22 2 months ago
@dirkbag22 are you saying the evidence for god is Palmolive?
eddygoombah 2 months ago
@eddygoombah Uh... no.
dirkbag22 2 months ago
@dirkbag22 well, why do they keep asking me to "soak in it"? And then you say that I have to "soak in the evidence"? Coincidence? Why else do they say I need to "wash away my sins with His Word"? Yes! God exists... and he wants me to have softer hands while I do dishes!
eddygoombah 2 months ago
@eddygoombah lol Good one. [:
deadthingdan 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 Assuming you're not a troll, you're completely wrong. No atheist says, "I know for a fact no God exists." We say, "There is no considerable evidence for such an extreme claim, therefore I will stick to the null hypothess of atheism."
Sweepingreaper4 1 month ago 11
@Sweepingreaper4 You sure you're not speaking for the Agnostics? Even a reasonable Gnostic will admit to a lack of evidence for their belief, instead making a faith-based decision to believe in "God." I don't see why Atheists would condescend to engage in a theological discussion as it has no pertinence to their personal life.
deadthingdan 1 month ago
@deadthingdan "I don't see why Atheists would condescend to engage in a theological discussion as it has no pertinence to their personal life."
Because theists kill, torture, and abuse children and others based on their compulsion to do so in connection with "god" delusions without rational thought or reasonable justification.
"Faith" is a mental illness that's a danger to those afflicted as well as those around them.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 "theists kill, torture, and..."
That's a rather broad generalization. Yes, there are people who use "faith" as an excuse to horrible things, but it's delusional to put us all in the same category. There's nutters and then there are people who actually try to live by an agreed upon code of ethics and morals. Believe, those who aren't nutters and have a backbone act and speak against evil. Calling faith a disease is rude. Most of the atheists I've met have more respect than that.
deadthingdan 1 month ago
Comment removed
dan91709 1 month ago
@deadthingdan You're entitled to try to "sell" irrational belief in your blood cult online, and I'm entitled to point out that it's nonsense.
"those who... have a backbone act and speak against evil." Hum.
True evil such as the disease of unreasoning faith spread to extract cash, cause fear and guilt, and demonize gays and minorities. If your morality comes from the bible, then it's borne of genocide, slavery, child abuse, hate, and fear. Talk about rude!
Unreasoning faith deserves no "respect."
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 I'm not straight nor am I Christian, but I have respect for others because I expect it from others. I don't ask people for money. I ask them for tolerance and understanding. You sound as daft as those nutters on the side of the road during a pride parade with their signs declaring "GOD HATES FAGS!" Seriously, you're a disgrace to rational thinkers everywhere.
deadthingdan 1 month ago
@deadthingdan I couldn't care less that you think ridiculing irrational hate, anti-gay legislation, religious indoctrination in public schools, and mindless stupidity is "rude." LMAO!
Your support of death cults, human sacrifice worship, making kids drink the symbolic blood of a torture victim, and the ridicule of logic and critical thinking is noted. You can crawl back under your rock now.
Have a nice day. :-)
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 Marry me.
deadthingdan 1 month ago
@deadthingdan By the way... Unreasoning faith deserves no respect.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 redundant much? You'd better be really attractive if you're going to counteract your complete lack of a brain. Though I really hope you're not. I'd hate to think an idiot like you could possibly continue polluting the gene pool.
deadthingdan 1 month ago
@deadthingdan Married and divorced in a less than 10 minutes? Great Undead Zombie Gawd of the Bible Belt! You're worse than Kim Kardashian at a swap meet!
If one day you wake up to realize that it's not a good idea for people to mindlessly spew hate for people merely because they're different - or that people that don't believe in the very same imaginary friends are worthy of eternal torture - then you can consider yourself enlightened. Until then, ridicule is the least of your worries.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 We need to go to a karaoke bar together. I just want to sing duets with you all night.
deadthingdan 1 month ago
@deadthingdan Yes, I do have that affect on both men and women. My ruggedly handsome frame, masculine but gentle face, impeccable character, moral certitude, and wonderfully sharing fun-loving nature with (dare I say) such incredible intellectual acuity. (sigh)
It is an awesome burden. Women and men (such as yourself) fall in love at the drop of a hat...
I suppose we all have our crosses to bear. :-)
dan91709 1 month ago 2
@dan91709 *Hat dropped. [:
deadthingdan 1 month ago
@deadthingdan (silly grin)
dan91709 1 month ago
@deadthingdan Can you fill in the blanks? Unreasoning _______ deserves no _________.
There. That wasn't so difficult, was it?
You're learning! Good boy!
dan91709 1 month ago
@Sweepingreaper4
Even though you don't say "I know for a fact that no God exists" Atheism is still DISBELIEVING in God due to a lacking of evidence. Correct me if I'm wrong.
As a follower of Christ I believe in God.. but why is believing in something you can't see more crazy than disbelieving in something you can't see? There's no evidence that God exists but there isn't any to prove that he doesn't exist.
Agnosticism makes a little more sense to me than atheism.
Pumpkin3844 2 weeks ago
@Pumpkin3844 Your first paragraph is correct. There is no evidence that God does not exist. There is also no evidence against unicorns, smurf, Zues, or the flying spaghetti monster but I would bet you are not agnostic in respect to them are you? There is no evidence for them so you don't believe in them.
Sweepingreaper4 2 weeks ago
@Sweepingreaper4
I understand what you're saying, but the difference is that I don't believe in God BECAUSE there is no evidence against Him.
Pumpkin3844 2 weeks ago
@Pumpkin3844 I don't understand. Do you believe in God or not?
Sweepingreaper4 2 weeks ago
@Sweepingreaper4 I do.
By your logic, I should believe in other things that there is no evidence against existing because I believe in God.
But what I'm saying is that I respectfully disagree, because the reason I believe in God has nothing to do with there being no evidence against His existence. I apologize for the confusion. I was just trying to make a point earlier.
Pumpkin3844 2 weeks ago
@Pumpkin3844 Okay. I get it. But you admit there is no evidence for the existence of God?
Sweepingreaper4 2 weeks ago
@Sweepingreaper4 I do indeed.
It's all about having faith, and being rewarded for our faith. God doesn't give us evidence for the same reason he doesn't present himself clearly to the world.. he wants us to believe in Him, and truely love Him. If he showed himself everyone would feel obligated to worship Him, and Love Him... but he wants us to CHOOSE all that, which is why he gave us freewill to begin with. It wouldn't be real love if he forced everyone to love Him.
Pumpkin3844 2 weeks ago
@Pumpkin3844 Okay, if I were to give in to this illogic and that having faith in something without any evidence is virtuous, where do I start? There are thousands upon thousands of Gods.
Sweepingreaper4 2 weeks ago
@Sweepingreaper4
I think that's entirely up to you. I can't force you to believe in Him, nor do I want to.
If you'd like, you could start with asking some basic questions such as
"Why/how am I here?"
"Why/how does this world exist?"
"If this universe didn't exist, what would?(kind of a scary thought)"
I mean really all you have to do is look around. Sure there's a scientific explanation as to how the world functions, but how did it all start?What created science itself?
Pumpkin3844 2 weeks ago
@Pumpkin3844 You do realize asking the questions you have just outlined is *EXACTLY* what made most Atheists become Atheists? They are all questions no religion can answer satisfactorily.
MexSanukk 1 week ago
@MexSanukk So what do you believe then?
I know what you disbelieve, but what do you actually believe?
Pumpkin3844 1 week ago
@Pumpkin3844 I try my best to believe nothing, and so far it has yet to fail me. There are however a great many things i trust though, but belief and trust are not the same thing. Trust is based on evidence and past reliability, belief is based on wishful thinking.
MexSanukk 1 week ago
@MexSanukk I'm glad to hear thus far your attempt to believe nothing has served you well. And you're right faith (if I may substitute that with belief) is different than trust. Scripture itself says so. Hebrews 11.1.
I hope, for your sake, it continues to work well for you. But if not, Jesus is big on extending love and forgiveness to those who've once turned their back on him. I know I am one.
kevb0527 1 week ago
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MexSanukk 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kevb0527 Jesus is big on extending love and forgiveness?
Really?
You do know that before him the was *NO* eternal SUFFERING in hell don't you? Not much love, or forgiveness there, if you ask me. Good job neither hell, or jesus actually exist!
MexSanukk 1 week ago
@MexSanukk Hmm. No suffering in hell before Jesus. You may want to refer to the Old Testament before you make that statement. Depending on the version, they refer to hell as Sheol or hell or some type of statement about being eternally apart from God.
Also, it seems based on the grounds that something is conceptually difficult to understand you simply write it off as non-existent. That mentality will certainly prove to be a disservice in life.
kevb0527 1 week ago
@kevb0527 I made no claims about no suffering at all, I was referring specifically to *ETERNAL* suffering in *HELL*, I'm not sure if you misread that or are trying to move the goalposts without anybody noticing LOL
RE 'difficult to understand' Again you are claiming something different to what I said, don't worry though I am more than used to these tactics from theists, but to clarify, neither exist as described in the bible, because neither *CAN* exist as described.
MexSanukk 1 week ago
@MexSanukk I mentioned hell in my response to that. See above. I'm not trying to do anything sly. Where are you getting your information about no hell prior to Christ bc Scripture does reference eternity apart from God in the OT?
Also, I'm not smart enough to use tactics. I'm just putting the pieces together as I read them. I seems you can't find logic for Christ to exists as Scripture describes him so you're writing him off as non-existent. That's all.
kevb0527 1 week ago
@kevb0527 There is NO mention of hell in the OT, it only comes with the /loving/ christ update (there is actually no mention of jesus in the OT either, but that's another discussion LOL).
The fact you use the word logic in the same sentence as christ (without saying they are mutually exclusive) shows you do not have a very good grasp of logic. Again refer back to a previous post of mine where I state faith is just wishful thinking, and as such it has no honest place in the real world.
MexSanukk 1 week ago
@MexSanukk "...faith is just wishful thinking, and as such it has no honest place in the real world." I beg to differ, friend. You order food at a restaurant, you demonstrate faith. You go hunting with a friend, you demonstrate faith. You fall asleep next to your spouse, you demonstrate faith. So, yes, faith does have a very real place in a very real world, and it would be illogical not to think so.
adabsurdum55 1 week ago
@adabsurdum55 How exactly does any of your examples require faith? I'm being serious, not sarcastic, I really don't see what you are getting at.
MexSanukk 1 week ago
@MexSanukk Well, what is faith?
adabsurdum55 1 week ago
@adabsurdum55 Either wishful thinking, or believing in something you know can not be proven.
MexSanukk 6 days ago
@MexSanukk And forgive me if I sound snide. I don't intend to. Thank you for being kind and honest with your response.
adabsurdum55 1 week ago
@adabsurdum55 I didn't think you were, I just couldn't see the point you were trying to make.
MexSanukk 6 days ago
@MexSanukk Oh, and hell is a doctrine that developed as the result of church leaders riding roughshod over the original languages, many years after the Gospels were written. Nothing Scriptural about it. I'm sure you heard the whole "Hell only comes from Jesus meek and mild" bit from Hitchens, but that's gravely inaccurate. Which I think is funny, because atheists accuse Christians of quoting folks who err (biblical authors), yet they're so quick to quote folks who also err. Strange.
adabsurdum55 1 week ago
@adabsurdum55 Although I am a big fan of Hitch, and he is greatly missed, I did not get this from him. I got it from actually reading the bible. Reading the bible was the main thing that turned me into an Atheist.
MexSanukk 1 week ago
@MexSanukk Get what from him? The "Hell comes from Jesus meek and mild" line is a direct quote from one of his debates. I want to say it was the one with William Lane Craig, but I'm not sure. Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with the Bible, friend. Do share.
adabsurdum55 1 week ago
@adabsurdum55 It may well be a direct quote, but that doesn't mean that was the first time I came across the fact.
I didn't have a bad experience with the bible, finding out it was ludicrous rubbish was a wonderful experience. All I had to do to discover this was to actually read the thing rather than restrict myself to the verses I was preached. Most of the Atheists I know became so the same way. Most christians *NEVER* actually read the book they claim is the holly word of god.
MexSanukk 6 days ago
@MexSanukk I would say faith is complete trust in something unseen, a little stronger than mere belief. You have faith the restaurant employee isn't slipping something in your meal, your friend won't turn his weapon on you, etc. So true what you say about Christians not reading the Scriptures, but what was so ludicrous about them? And you say you came across the fact? What fact? That Hitchens was mistaken? Or did you agree?
adabsurdum55 6 days ago
@adabsurdum55 No, I do NOT have faith the chef isn't going to poison me, or a friend will shoot me, I trust that they will not. Faith is based on *NOTHING*, trust is based on knowledge, evidence, and past performance. There is a big difference.
What is ludicrous in the bible? Err, talking snakes, donkeys, bushes, EVERY animal in the world fitting in one small boat, the victim of rape has to marry her rapist, the list goes on and on.
The fact that there was no hell before christ.
MexSanukk 6 days ago
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adabsurdum55 6 days ago
@MexSanukk And I'll admit the talking snakes, donkeys, and bushes are hard to swallow. But you honestly don't think these can be accounted for? For instance, the Torah was probably written during Israel's exile. Until then, the stories were passed down orally from generation to generation. What if these were real events (e.g. archaeology suggests there was a flood, just not on such a large scale) that were mythologized over time? If not, should we reject any verifiable historical accuracies?
adabsurdum55 6 days ago
@adabsurdum55 There are two possibilities 1) the bible is the true and PERFECT word of the creator god. 2) it's a collection of old oral traditions that carry no more weight than any other. If 1 is the case there should be no possibility of corruption as being this supreme beings ONLY physical place to list his rules, apparently he can create the universe and everything in it out of nothing in less than a week, but can't keep his own holy book in order? If 2 why should we care?
MexSanukk 5 days ago
@MexSanukk Ah. Perfect example. So when I went to jump school, the NCOs told us, "Trust your equipment. Have faith in the riggers." I had NO idea who packed my parachute. No evidence. No track record. No name. So...my jumping from the plane was an act of faith, an act of COMPLETE TRUST in something (in this case, someone) unseen, which meets my original definition. Again, we can't say life is devoid of faith.
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@adabsurdum55 Yes that is a perfect example of somebody using the WRONG word. Trust applies in BOTH cases here. See my example about the unknown car driver for more of an explanation of why.
MexSanukk 4 days ago
@MexSanukk This is seriously my last comment, and I'll let you reply. I know we don't want to argue semantics, but I must say you're right, faith is based on nothing (that is, without past experience). However, we can't say life is completely devoid of faith. If a recruit walks into a recruiting office and enlists, he trusts his recruiters, but he has faith that he's made the right decision. At least, that's how it would be understood. The scope of its meaning isn't limited to religion.
adabsurdum55 6 days ago
@adabsurdum55 His recruiters DO have a proven track-record, he CAN have a conversation DIRECTLY with them about anything he is concerned about, and they will directly ANSWER him in person. How can you suggest this is even similar to religious belief, where NONE of this is true?
MexSanukk 5 days ago
@MexSanukk Also, what made the experience wonderful? Forgive me for asking so many questions, friend.
adabsurdum55 6 days ago
@adabsurdum55 It was wonderful because it removed the shackles of an oppressive religion.
Seriously, don't worry about asking questions, it's how we learn, I wish more people would do so.
MexSanukk 6 days ago
@MexSanukk Lastly, you say it's an oppressive religion. How so? Also, you're suggesting you can't have faith in people? Like in an elected official new to office?
adabsurdum55 6 days ago
@adabsurdum55 Oppressive religion: It is a religion of hate and it is a religion of fear, so yes, I find it very oppressive.
Faith in officials: No, like I said before you trust them or don't trust them, even if you really insist on playing the semantics game. Do you equate the faith the religious have in their god, with the 'faith' they have in an elected official? The two are not even nearly close.
MexSanukk 5 days ago
@MexSanukk“ Do you equate the faith the religious have in their god, with the ‘faith’ they have in an elected official?”
Actually, yeah. Kyrios and basileia (Lord and kingdom) have political connotations. The idea behind the Kingdom of Heaven is that it spreads throughout the world (through love, healing, charity, etc.) until heaven comes down to earth and God enacts his reign permanently. You know, "King of kings, Lord of lords."
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@MexSanukk I believe I said the recruit trusts his recruiters but has faith that he made the right decision (faith in himself?). Again, you said, “Faith is something you know cannot be proven.” At the moment of the recruit’s signing, nothing is proven. At least, not for that recruit (I know because I’ve been there). Thus he has acted in faith. If this is his first big life decision, he has no track record, nothing. So again, we can’t say life is devoid of faith. If I’m driving and a car is...
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@adabsurdum55 Can you please *STOP* using 'faith' and 'trust' as interchangeable words, as I have pointed out several times now they are *NOT* I know a great many theists would love them to be (just as they would love Atheism to be a religion), as this helps them muddy the waters, but they are not interchangeable!
MexSanukk 4 days ago
@MexSanukk Can't I use faith and trust interchangeably? Because I've found a few dictionaries that do. Here's one from my laptop (they even using a politician example!): "complete trust or confidence in someone or something: this restores one's faith in politicians." We also say, "God is our Trust," and "In God We Trust." So...right, when there is faith, trust applies. Complete trust. No evidence. I jumped with no evidence of my rigger doing his job correctly. I drive with no evidence of the...
adabsurdum55 3 days ago
@MexSanukk (cont.) passing driver's competence. "Anybody that has driven for any length of time has a huge amount of experience..." Where's the evidence for that? Also, you said, "Without knowing a single thing about this specific driver we trust them to behave in the same, legal way..." Sounds like you've violated your definition of trust, friend. Don't know a thing about this driver? Meaning, no evidence? Only presumptions? Hm. Something's wrong here.
adabsurdum55 3 days ago
@MexSanukk (cont.) approaching, I don’t have that person’s driving record. Heck, they may not have a driver’s license. In that moment, I have no evidence whether that person is going to stay in his or her lane. So do I trust this person (which you say requires evidence/track record, etc.) or do I have faith in this person?
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@adabsurdum55 Cars do actually exist, anybody that has driven for any length of time has had a huge amount of experience with other drivers, we know what most drivers would do, and without knowing a single thing about this specific driver we trust them to behave in the same, legal way (presumably if they are on the roads they passed a test). Sometimes this trust is not deserved, this is when accidents/crashes happen. Trust is based on REALITY faith is based on NOTHING!
MexSanukk 4 days ago
@MexSanukk And a religion of hate? How so? Also, in regard to your two possibilities, I’m not an inerrantist, so the first is out. As for the second, the Bible contains oral stories, it is not itself an oral story. The Bible is holistic in that it shares the same theme: God. It is not holistic in terms of genre, chronology, author, intended audience, etc. And why should we care? Well, why shouldn’t we? Whole civilizations were constructed around the words therein...
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@adabsurdum55 Religion of hate, ask the gay men that have been killed by good christians, ask Jessica Ahlquist (and family) who has received death threats, and messages from people hoping she gets raped because she requested an ILLEGAL banner be removed. Look at the #godIsNotGreat tag on twitter when Hitch died, count the christians issuing death threats, praying for disease, and misfortune to befall the Atheist who were referencing a BOOK TITLE. Does this show love/tolerance?
MexSanukk 4 days ago
@MexSanukk Hm. You're saying the religion is hateful because we have examples of its followers being hateful, correct? So when Eric Harris walked into Columbine High School and began firing, he was wearing a t-shirt that read, "Natural Selection," and there were reports of the two asking victims if they were Christians before firing. We also have the Stalinist regime persecuting the Russian Church, and let's not forget the persecutions behind the bamboo curtain. So how should I regard atheism?
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So I...
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So I...
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
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@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So I...
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
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@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So I...
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
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@MexSanukk And the funny thing about your examples is that the actions of these individuals stand in contrast to NT ethics. Christ tells us to live peacefully and love one another. He hangs out with social outcasts, "sinners," and those of that ilk. He says if folks persecute you, bless them, and if they kill you, pray for them. Christians were burned on crosses to light the Roman gardens, thrown to the lions for entertainment. But then Constantine happened, and it all got messed up lol. So no,
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@MexSanukk (cont.) this does not show tolerance and love, (though that's a funny question to ask if you already regard the religion as intolerant and hateful) but it is inconsistent with our belief system. Despite the examples I gave, I'd never say atheism is intolerant or hate-filled (probably a better word than hateful, huh?), because I know to base my opinion of a belief (or non-belief) system on a few knuckleheads is unfair and judgmental, which also violates my religious convictions.
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@adabsurdum55 If the book is not the perfect word of a creator god, why should we treat it so? Why should I be forced to pay more respect to this than to say The Code of Hammurabi for example? If it is not the immutable word of god (which it clearly is not), it deserves *NO* special privileges, and therefore neither do religions based on it.
MexSanukk 4 days ago
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@MexSanukk "If the book is not the perfect word of a creator god, why should we treat it so?" Firstly, books, not book. Secondly, the Bible is a collection of books written by imperfect men about a perfect God. And we, as Christians, trust (because we have history and MSS to support many of them) these authors and have faith in the God they're communicating. Whether you reject the claims or not, it does deserve special privilege because of its historical and cultural significance. Why more...
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@MexSanukk (cont.) than Hammurabi's Code? Well, for starters, how many folks were killed because of their allegiance or rejection of the code?
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@MexSanukk (cont.) We see a progression in humanity’s understanding of its relationship with the earth and the greater something they trusted was there (note I said “trusted” because to them Creation was evidence for a Creator). Military leaders still read Sun Tsu and Clausewitz. Students still read the Illiad and the Odyssey (there’s an oral tradition). But why should they care?
adabsurdum55 4 days ago
@adabsurdum55 I read the bible far more frequently than most christians do, but I read it as a book. I am not suggesting we destroy every bible in the world (in fact the idea is abhorrent to me), all I am saying is treat it for what it is, a book, nothing more. The generals reading Sun Tsu, and von Clausewitz do not think if they fail to follow every word therein they will burn in eternal agony. Books are good, attaching supernatural powers to them is not.
MexSanukk 4 days ago
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@MexSanukk Right. But there was really no "hell" (in the Western sense of the word) until around the eighth century. Christ's use of Hades is hyperbole in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in Revelation we have the image of Hades being destroyed (20:14). Truth be told, Christ seemed to be a conditionalist (a very Jewish idea). It was life in or outside the kingdom that was in question, not the quality of life.
adabsurdum55 6 days ago
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@MexSanukk It's ironic that you're so stuck on not believing what's illogical but you're you believe hell is not in OT. Again, it may not be named "hell" (look for 'the grave' or 'death' or 'Sheol') but the concept of eternal separation from God is present. Read Deuteronomy. Read 2 Samuel. Read Job. Read Psalms. Read Proverbs. Read Isaiah. Read Ezekiel. Read Amos. Read Jonah. Read Habakkuk. I'm done w this discussion in Youtube. I'll be happy to continue via email. kevinbbarnes@gmail.com
kevb0527 1 week ago
@kevb0527 Sorry I didn't see this until now as somebody flagged it as Spam.
When refer to hell in the OT I can only assume you are referring to the (probably deliberate) mistranslation of שְׁאוֹל (sheol), this word actually means grave, nothing more. It is a common misconception that the OT speaks of hell but when you study the original texts you will find it does not.
Thank you for the offer of going to e-mail, but I prefer public debate where others can see what is being said.
MexSanukk 6 days ago
@MexSanukk You lured me back.. Sheol does mean grave but also pit, underworld, darkness, a place of eternal separation from God. Since--as you've suggested--you've studied Hebrew and Aramaic you know Semitics had very few words with just one definition. Their words were "fluid" and conceptual. Sheol means more than grave. I too have studied the original texts on the graduate level. But I'm sure my education means nada to you since you're belligerently content to live in your Sheol of wrongness.
kevb0527 6 days ago
@kevb0527 Words are indeed fluid, which is why the idea of hell has now become attached to שְׁאוֹל a word that ORIGINALLY has no such meaning, it referred only to grave, pit, grave-like holes.
Previously you also claimed גהנם (Gehenna) as another example of hell in the OT, to do this throws doubt on your claims of having studied (or perhaps more likely what you were taught), as this referrers to a specific place just outside ancient Jerusalem, NOT hell.
MexSanukk 5 days ago
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dan91709 1 month ago
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@dirkbag22 Your faith in male virgin human sacrifice is heartwarming. I'll bet you also ritually drink the symbolic blood of the victim with a symbol of the instrument of his torture hanging overhead (communion). Aren't you glad you believe what you believe because you believe? Otherwise your "all-loving" god would torture you forever...
Everybody ought to follow clergy so a genocidal racist child-killing "god" that kills innocent male virgins so he can forgive you for eating bacon reigns! :-)
dan91709 1 month ago 3
@dan91709 Look at you and your religious bigotry! Stop the hate!
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 Hate? Bigotry? Why? It's no secret christians think it's cool to drink the "blood" of a murder victim and hang symbols of his torture in their homes.
Oh, I get it. Stripping the BS from christian dogma and telling the unvarnished truth is "unfair?"
The first step in recovering from your mental illness is to recognize that you have a problem. Talking to imaginary friends is normal when you're 4 or 5 but by adulthood it's a sign of serious illness. Get help. The sooner, the better. :-)
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 Spew it. I can take it. Jesus is who you need to be concerned with. Who do you say He is? That will determine your place in eternity.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 Like I said, you think your "all-loving" god tortures people forever if they don't believe they believe because they believe. (sigh)
Just for once, can't you come up with something new - that isn't violent, hateful, rude, anti-gay, sexist, racist, or stupid? Just askin' :-)
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 Wrong. Why would God force you to spend eternity with Him when you spent a lifetime avoiding Him? Simple enough.
The nastiness here has been coming from you pal - the hate, the rude, the bigotry - all you.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 (yawn) Deception. Again?
When I asked you to come up with something new that's isn't violent, hateful, rude, anti-gay, sexist, racist, or stupid - it should go without saying that you shouldn't lie or make personal attacks.
How sad for you that this is the best you can do. (sigh)
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 I see the question was too heady for you. I'm not surprised. Let me say it again - read slowly and let it sink in, because this is the basis for eternity in hell. All hell is, is a world without God. No goodness, no kindness, no hope, no love. Just godlessness. Now if you have spent a lifetime avoiding God, why would God force you to spend forever with Him? Answer that, and stop being so stupidly belligerent and bigoted.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 "All hell is, is a world without God." I see... Since there is no *real* god, your life must be without love and kindness. How sad. :-(
Maybe if you had said hell is a world without a flying elephant, you'd see how pathetic your reasoning is...
Are you "avoiding" the Flying Elephant because you just don't want to believe? You know that a life without the Flying Elephant is a world without sunshine! "No goodness, no kindness, no hope, no love." Just Elephantlessness!
See? Pretty silly.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 You're irrational. All atheists are. The rational view of unbelief is agnosticism, but you dare to believe that there is no God, anywhere. You can't possibly know that. God has said, "the fool says in his heart there is no God," and through my experience online, I can tell you that is true. You won't dare answer the question, because you run back to your 'there is no God' mantra - you are filled with anger and hate because like most atheists, your unbelief is emotional.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 "you dare to believe that there is no God"
I don't believe in a Flying Elephant, Tooth Fairly, or Santa Claus as well, but as to whether your genocidal, child-killing, incest and slavery endorsing father of an "all-powerful" masochistic virgin male human sacrifice type god exists, any monster that requires you to fear AND love it without evidence of its existence and that purports to torture children for wearing blended fabrics, eating bacon, and mere disbelief is patently ridiculous.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 That's fine, you have that right. What you won't be able to do is complain when you end up in hell, because you sent yourself there.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 If there were an "all power, all-loving" god, wouldn't you expect it to do something? If it wanted people to love it, would depend on a 2,000 year old internally inconsistent jumble of superstitions and hatefully racist accounts of murder and genocide written in dead languages to tell you to make its clergy rich? (sigh)
Poor little man. You've been duped; swindled; and cheated. You're a sheep; a slave; a follower; and a fool. You're told when and who to hate by evil liars. It's sad.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 I'm still waiting for your answer to this question:
What is with all those evil charlatans like Pat Robertson and Westboro Baptists? Why would your superhuman masochist let creeps prey on his beloved "children?" I mean, if he is the "all-powerful" abused buff blond blue-eyed bronze-age son of a serial killer, what has he done for you lately?
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 Charlatans, in the case of Westboro - there's nothing Christian about them.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 Really? I agree, but how do YOU know that? Westboro christians quote the bible and say they believe Jesus died for their sins... How do christians determine one kind of christian is "real" and the others aren't?
Is there a secret handshake? Does "god" send you emails or use a cell phone? Please enlighten me about how you can tell one self-righteous miscreant from another. This should be interesting, :-)
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 It's simple. Their big stupid campaign - God hates fags - is a lie. God doesn't hate anyone.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dan91709 You have the free will to love or hate God. Obviously you have chosen the latter.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 I "hate" your "god?" (rolls eyes) That's absurd.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, or Flying Elephants, but I don't "hate" them.
I recognize that your delusion requires this love/hate, black/white, good/evil dichotomy, but in fact your "god" is a figment of your own imagination. It deserves the same respect given a delusional belief in a magical Flying Elephant.
I don't hate you. I pity you for having lost touch with reality and I think your delusion is dangerous to yourself and others.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 Oh you are filled with hate. The vast majority of atheists are walking wounded. Someone or something has hurt them. It is unnatural for man not to seek after God.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 The most loving people on Earth don't need a delusion to justify their genuine desire to help others. They don't "hate" non-existent "magical" creatures at the behest of a people claiming to be the Earthly representatives of a sky daddy.
Believing in belief because you believe isn't a "virtue." It's a disease. It's because I love you - and humanity in general - that I want you cured.
Real love isn't built upon a lie. Love comes from the heart - not a greedy alter.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 There is no love on the planet that doesn't come from God.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 The idea that you need to believe in mythical being so that you are able to love is so sad it hurts my heart. It's not true, of course, but that you think you are without any capacity to love without a belief in a lie is just so terribly terribly sad.
You've proven my point. Your delusion is a mental illness.
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 I didn't say that. I said that love comes from God. The reason love exists is because God created it. That's why hell is so bad - no love at all.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 If your god were responsible for love and the bible were true, can you please explain why god killed every living thing on Earth in the "flood," why it holds a grudge against the children of Adam, and why it orders genocide, child abuse, slavery, sexual domination, human sacrifice, and murder? What's the matter. Don't you read the bible?
What do you do if there really is a god but it's a mentally ill child molester and serial killer?
How lucky you are that your "god" is imaginary. :-)
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 That one I'm going to let YOU read for yourself: In Genesis beginning at Chapter 6.
dirkbag22 1 month ago
@dirkbag22 Your "faith" is just a series of self-contradictory myths from a bronze age book you picked and chose from to weave a comfortable delusion consistent with your own fears and prejudices. You ignore that your fictional "god" likes genocide, slavery, child abuse, sexism, incest, human and animal sacrifice, and thinks the Earth is both flat and the center of a universe consisting of a bowl with holes in it overhead.
Thing is, if your "god" were real, it wouldn't write such silly crap. :-)
dan91709 1 month ago
@dan91709 What? You're not going to read it? Ah, I could have predicted that. *L*
dirkbag22 1 month ago