She comes with a part of the sollution to get more food from the sun and not from the oil. Grassfed animals (no soy or corn) will give us a lot of what we really need.
The people who attacked her are people who cringe at the idea of animals being kept in cages! Humans are fair game, but don't mess with that animal! Just pathetic!
@yafola1 "Humans are fair game..." Let's not overstate it. She got a little whip cream on her, from folks who were likely flesh eaters, who certainly didn't even know who she was or the WAPF she represents, playing a harmless prank. Boo hoo. Animals that she eats, however, are raped and tortured, enslaved and beaten every day of there miserable lives until they are mutilated and their bloody diseased bodies eaten. Seriously, if these folks were vegan, they would NOT have used whipped cream Peace
@FathomlessJoy Hey! Animals raped? By whom? Enslaved? Really? That is the silliest shit I've ever heard! Dude, we will have to agree to disagree! Take care!
@yafola1 "Hey! Animals raped? By whom? Enslaved? Really?" Yes. Care you find out for yourself? Are you adult enough, are you repsonsible enough to actually watch it? If so, check out Earthlings: watch?v=FHA4HNbmDLg
It is not about agreeing or disagreeing. It is about finding the truth. See if you really want to know the truth; watch it for yourself.
@yafola1 "Animals raped?" You seem like a fairly educated person. How do you supposed tens of billions of livestock animals are reproduced every year? Think about it! It ain't by makin' sweet love....
The animals are sexually molestered, force into intercourse, rape by men's hands, arms, tools, etc. Watch Earthlings and get back to me, ok?
@FathomlessJoy Make sweet love? Do cows make sweet love? I've never seen cows in the field cuddling and smoking joes, if you know what I mean. You are imposing human thoughts and feelings are animals. Animals should not be treated badly. Factory-like production of meat is absolutely odious, but mating animals is not rape, dude. I've seen it done and guess what? No rape counseling necessary afterwards and no PTSD. You sound like the one who is clueless! Sorry, but you do. Peace!:)
@yafola1 "Make sweet love? Do cows make sweet love?" No, livestock cattle are raped, repeatedly, especially dairy cattle. You didn't watch Earthlings, did you?
@FathomlessJoy I'm starting to wonder about you! Yeah, actually I did watch and it confirmed what I already know to be true and what I have said. Those "farms" are horrible and animals should be treated with kindness. You don't listen, do you? We are on the same side in that respect. However, you won't be happy until everyone agrees with you on every point. Mating, by the way is necessary for all animals. Otherwise, they go extinct. Many farm animals would be extinct if not eaten by us.
@yafola1 "You are imposing human thoughts and feelings are animals." Why don't we just consider the facts, then? Want to challenge yourself today? You want to know the truth? Cool! Watch Earthlings: watch?v=FHA4HNbmDLg. What you have to lose? It surely will show you the facts.
@yafola1 "Animals should not be treated badly." Whose definition of "badly?" Yours? Mine? The profiteers? The politicians? It is like the US Supreme Court Justice once wrote about pornography: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." So we take the lame lazy way of reform, right? Put a little paint on the pig, as it were. Really? Can you reform something that is fundamentally flawed? Sorry, I have been told those lies my whole life. I don't buy that brand of birdie bullshit any more!
@yafola1 "Factory-like production of meat is absolutely odious" You think that humans need to eat flesh, right? How you going to produce billions of animals to feed 7 billion people? Some mom and pop, gender gentler cattle garages? Frankly that is naive on many fronts, friend.
@FathomlessJoy Hey, man! Been done before. How naive are you to think that feeding that many people a purely vegan diet won't have an impact? Do you know what we have done to this planet just by growing veggies and grains?
@yafola1 When? Back when 7 billion aliens ran the factory farms? Foolish to recommend, as we cannot feed folks now, since most of the world's food and fresh water are used by the livestock industry. Flesh eaters are like a cancer.
@yafola1 "You sound like the one who is clueles" Perhaps, but today I didn't rape and torture any animals, lie about my behavior to strangers, and direspect my body by putting diseased rotting carcass parts in my body. So I was smart enuf to figure that much out. Cheers, M8!
@FathomlessJoy It has been fun, but you just keep repeating the same things. It is like debating with someone over the presence of a god. Round and round and round, with the "born again" never making a truly valid point or taking all things into consideration. You think eating meat is wrong. Don't eat it. I respect that. By the way, I don't eat diseased meat. I eat it nice, vital and fresh! Circle of life, mate!
@yafola1 "It has been fun, but you just keep repeating the same things" It is hard to find anyone health conscious, compassionate, caring, and intelligent enuf to listen :(
@FathomlessJoy I'm clinging? Stop sending shit to my inbox, jackass! I said peace and then you replied. You are a psychopath! Peace! Don't reply!!! Done!!!
@yafola1 "Round and round and round, with the "born again" I know what you mean! The zombies are like robots, repeating the same crazy stuff, just like the nut job Lierre Keith, right? Crazy lady that one!
@yafola1 "You think eating meat is wrong" Actually thought and belief get in the way of our witness of the truth, right? I recommend dropping the dogma that has been force fed to you since you were born, thus seeing the world anew for yourself.
Again, as a vegan I do not condone the actions of the individuals in this incident. While it's disheartening to hear Mrs. Keith make false claims about the majority of vegans, I am sympathetic to her experience and urge anyone who disagrees with her message to find more intelligent, peaceful and constructive ways to engage in this conversation.
livinlowcarblife, can either you or Mrs. Keith provide links to scientific studies that show evidence that being vegan leads to violence? Perhaps a study on violent offenders in our prison population would be a good place to start (though you already know what the findings will be). Please contact me and let me know when you have provided the factual basis for the claims stated in this video. Thanks.
First off, I do not condone the actions of the individuals in this video. That said, they represent the minority and not the majority of vegans.
The idea that being vegan makes you violent and destructive or that vegans are always on a hair trigger is one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard. As a vegan of 6 years and a vegetarian for 10 years prior to that, I have never felt healthier or more at peace.
I wish Mrs. Keith all the best but urge others to fact check these claims.
@smurfieboo You're a fucking retard. The world needs to be cleansed of idiots like you. Assaulting a small defenseless woman? Normal human beings don't behave like his.
@leonjay1 I retract my comment after reading about her mental health problems. To pie someone with such a tenuous tie on reality is just plain cruel. After all, she called herself vegan for 20 years while "binging on meat and diary". Poor Lierre, she's so confused, so fucked up.
That's awful, what happened to her. I do not associate myself with vegan's like this even though I am vegan. The few that are like this give all of us bad names. Shame on them! Very sad :(.
Bunch of pussies to pull that shit. I would have loved to have been there, I would have grabbed one of them and gotten security. I'm a big guy and not one to back down from witnessing someone perform a chickenshit act like that. Three people hiding behind masks purposefully endangering another person and running away is a load of crap.
If they feel that strongly about their convictions they should invite her to a debate. Challenge what she says with civility. F**k those cowards.
I bet you think your really tough for saying that, when really you just sound like a fucking meathead... This writer has produced a poorly researched book posing as a factual, scientific one, when in fact she references mainly books, magazines, and websites (even wikipedia and google answers wtf?). Less than 8% of her book comes from peer-reviewed journals. This idiot journalist doesn't qualify for a serious debate.
I don't like what this lady stands for....her research is very poor and respected by people that need reassurance, but wow..being violent is not the way to go..everybody is entitled to there opinon, respect it and move on.
Funny about corpse munchers, they always say "vegans should just leave us alone wahhh, waaaahh waaaaaah!!" Ever try to actually leave them alone? You see some of the more agressive and violent behaviour come out of meat eaters when you do no want to engage in discussion with them and respectfully ask for them to allow you to leave them alone. LOL The contradictions abound.
@FathomlessJoy: Torture would depend on what you considered torture and how you raised animals. But you can have compassion for animals and still kill and eat them. Just because you can't or feel no one can, doesn't change reality.
@DrKyure "compassion for animals and still kill and eat them" LOL Examine that uncompromising contradiction. Better yet haul your compassionate flesh eating ass down to the nearest slaughterhouse and witness the compassion for yourself. Ever been prodded to your death with a tazer? Ever watched your brothers and sisters get their throats slit before you and dangle there screaming, while you are pushed, punched and kicked to step up to the knife? You clearly have no concept of compassion, friend.
@FathomlessJoy: Examine the past. Humans have long believed that if we take an animal's life that we should respect it. The advent of factory farming is where there was a disconnect. Many vegs say that people wouldn't eat meat if they had to kill it themselves. The problem is that this is due to a disconnect that we now have and that most people actually did both kill animals and eat them not very long ago, and still do. These people usually don't become vegs.
@FathomlessJoy: When you say slaughterhouse, do you mean a humane slaughter house or do you mean an industrial slaughter house? Would it not be better to ask me to kill an animal myself and eat it?
Disgust =/= morality.
Yes, I think we can safely say that anything that eats something else doesn't want to be eaten in that way. From humans to lions to cows, they wouldn't want to be eaten in the same way they eat their food. But so what? What's your point?
@FathomlessJoy: There is a difference between compassionate killing and industrial killing. If there wasn't, then you should say that you wouldn't prefer to be killed the non factory farm way vs the factory farm way.
@DrKyure You suffer from sentient schizophrenia, it is a complication of speciesism. I know you think you are compassion but your ignorance shows when you state "compassion for animals and still kill and eat them." I know you tell yourself this to feel good about yourself, but feeling good about oneself rarely brings about needed change.
@FathomlessJoy: Problem, species and sentience isn't the basis that humans base importance on, it's familiarity and responsibility. For example, the burning house example. If there are 2 kids, your own and another, if sentience is all that mattered then you should flip a coin to decide which to save. If there is a human and a dog, many people would save the human over the dog, if we make the human a known murderer though, those same people would choose the dog.
@FathomlessJoy: Also if intelligent aliens came to Earth and could communicate with us, I doubt we would try to eat them because they aren't human.
Sorry, but humans aren't speciesist just because we feel more responsible for our own species. This is why we take care of the mentally challenged and children, not because they will one day be or could have been sentient.
Also, it would be speciesist if we didn't do the same for all animals in need, which not even most vegs think.
Also if anyone cares, look at the suggested videos to the right and watch shaolin kung fu expoding the meat myth...... these monks dont eat meat and look at all they can do?? now look at the meat eating Americans in walmart, which diet would you wanna follow for results?? Much love
What this lady is stating is an opinion, not fact, you could also read Dr. Grahams book 80/10/10 exposing meat myths, people need to research every angle before they believe anything... all I know meat made me lethargic and my stomach feel like a brick, vegatables and fruit makes me feel alive and look good and bonus is Im not hurting anything :D
@ZachandBailey1111: Just because someone has DR attached to their name doesn't mean they automatically know what they are saying. Case in point me. The problem is that people who believe in what they are saying and want to be right will fight as hard as they can to prove they are right. A veg diet can be healthy but that doesn't mean it is the only healthy diet.
You could also eat bivalves and not hurt them as they don't have a nervous system.
@DrKyure I can't help that Doug Graham is a doctor, I only named a book that says otherwise than what this lady is saying, that fact that he was a doctor made no nevermind to me. I was pointing out that here this lady has a book about vegatarian myths and other people have books talking about how bad meat is, so you have to research every angle bc everyone says something different.......
@ZachandBailey1111: Yes people have angles based on their beliefs. Saying meat is unhealthy is closer to saying that drinking too much water can be unhealthy then saying drinking too much bear is unhealthy. Meat can be good for you, we simply eat too much of it and what we do it tends to be the "tastier" kind that is bad for us.
She was a vegan for 20 years and claims to have severe problems because of it. Most vegs are not at the same point, but then again, all people are different.
"Meat can be good for you, we simply eat too much of it and what we do it tends to be the "tastier" kind that is bad for us."
Can you provide a reference for that? My info says meat is not a problem, no matter what kind, no matter its taste, no matter how much. Instead, my info says it's all about sugar and starch.
Think about it. What's the thing inside meat that makes it bad? Is it the protein, the iron, the vitamins and minerals, the essential fatty acids?
@JackFook: From an environmental perspective we eat too much and we tend to eat more then we need. When I say the "bad" kind, I refer to high fat content red meat. This has the biggest risk of problems, however there is risk with every diet.
letthemeatmeat. com/page/10 >The interview with Gary F. should be the first post.
Yes, sugar can lead to diabetes, something I wish vegs would stop trying to say omnivores get more of.
Mostly sat. fats and cholesterol...in high doses, moderation is fine.
"When I say the "bad" kind, I refer to high fat content red meat."
So it's the fat in the red meat, and the red meat itself, is that right? Several problems with that idea. First, red meat is red because of iron. I doubt iron is what makes us sick. Second, if we don't eat fat, we have to eat something else, in this case it will be carbs. That's a problem in itself. Since it's clear that carbs are bad for us, then fat must be good for us. There's no other alternative.
@JackFook: Mostly fat and cholesterol, the bad kind at least, in high quantities. There is some evidence to suggest that fat isn't as bad as we think it is though. The red color is because of protein and dyes. The meat we eat tends to be colored red because that is what people expect.
No, you need fat in your diet, but I'm talking about eating too much fat, along with anything. Carbs are again fine in moderation. That doesn't me variation, that means eating the correct amount.
How much carbs are we talking about here? 50g/day? 100g/day? 300g/day? Bear in mind the official nutritional guidelines say to eat at least 300g/day of carbs, no limit on refined sugars. And early research on diabetes says 70lbs/year (86g/day) of refined sugar and starch for 20 years is enough for diabetes to appear in any given population.
"Mostly fat and cholesterol, the bad kind at least, in high quantities."
What quantity is high quantities? There's no bad kind of cholesterol. Cholesterol is cholesterol is cholesterol. There's just one kind. Maybe you're referring to LDL and HDL? Those are not cholesterol, they are lipoproteins. Low Density Lipoprotein (LDL), High Density Lipoprotein (HDL).
You mention cholesterol as one reason meat is bad for us. Studies done on that show that dietary cholesterol has no effect on cholesterol in our blood. The only explanation is that cholesterol in our blood is tightly regulated. Maybe it's because it's essential to life. Cholesterol is used for all kinds of biological functions and even structure, not the least of which is cell wall and immune defense and nerve sheath insulation.
@JackFook: Yes, again, too much of the "bad" cholesterol can be bad for you. Again, humans can eat just about anything and be fine as long as the correct moderation is used. Too much or too little of most of the components, vitamins, and minerals we eat can harm us.
Every time I hear that it doesn't make sense. Moderation implies that we should eat _less_ than we need, just to make sure we don't eat too much. If we do this, we will never have _enough_, and always have too little.
Moderation is absurd. Satiety and hunger make much more sense. Eat when hungry til full, stop when not hungry, repeat when hungry again, and so forth. Homeostatic systems take care of moderation naturally with zero intervention from us.
@JackFook: Not really, it means we should eat the correct amount and not to binge on anything, at least not for too long. So I disagree with you meaning of the word.
So then we should be able to drink soda and eat cake until we are full and be fine? Or would a rounded meal with fruit, meat, veggies, grains be better? Again, you can eat cake and drink soda, but just don't over do it.
Moderation implies that we lost the basic instincts which regulate hunger, sleep, and basically all physiological functions, and instead we should make a conscious and continuous effort to regulate these systems, even when we sleep. How do all other species do it? Why should humans be different? The whole idea is just absurd.
@JackFook: Not to me. To me it means that we put too much emphasis on eating what we want to eat the most because we use to not get a lot of that so we would binge on fat and/or sugar when we could. Now we have plenty and don't need to do this. So moderating what we eat is the best.
Again, you seem to be over thinking moderation of what we eat. Just don't eat too much fatty foods or sugar and get all the nutrients you need. Simple as that.
@JackFook: Take what I say at face value and don't use a slippery slope argument when your argument isn't what I'm saying. You don't have to be at the exact requirement. You can be a bit under or a bit over. What I'm saying is if you need to get say 10 grams of fat and 200 grams of protein per day, don't eat 200 grams of fat and 800 grams of protein. That is a bit over shot. Some things we simply don't need as much of as we eat and cutting back isn't a bad think.
You're talking about the famine/abundance aspect of our evolution, right? When there's plenty of food, we fill up, grow fat, and can survive famine. Is that the idea? There's a problem with that. When we grow fat today, we also grow sick. That's not very good for survival. Remember, no medicine back then. When we're sick with diabetes, no medicine means death. Death means no offspring. No offspring means that's the end of the genetic line.
@JackFook: Diabetes is usually from too much sugar, if not genetic. That would be a good example of something we can cut back on.
I was talking more about animals. They eat what they can when they can because it is not guaranteed they will eat again very soon.
Our bodies act in much the same way. We hold on to energy dense fat really well because we needed it. Now we don't exactly need to do that, but an easy life isn't guaranteed so eating in moderation is needed.
If it's the end of the genetic line, then it's impossible that we are the descendants of fat/sick/dead people. See the problem with that famine/abundance idea now?
Maybe it's the poverty/affluence idea instead? That doesn't work either. Look for Gary Taubes on Youtube. There's several lectures and he explains it so much better than I could.
(cont'd) Plants contain all these things too. Protein, iron, vitamins, minerals, EFA, etc. All found in plants. Why would a vegan diet be any better than a mixed diet, if everything plants contained is also found in meat? What's the thing inside meat that makes meat bad for us?
@JackFook: Plants have a lot of nutrients surrounded by cellulose or other non-digestible material for humans, but even in animals that are evolved to eat these plants, they don't get much nutrients out of them and have to eat a lot of it. Plants have quantity. Meat has quality. Animals can easily digest other animals, about 90% energy conversion, plants see about a 40% conversion.
Meat can overdose you and plants can malnourish you.
"Meat can overdose you and plants can malnourish you."
I can understand why plants can malnourish us: We can't digest them properly. But I don't understand how meat can overdose us. I've gone over the details you mentioned and I just don't see anything that could overdose us. Maybe iron poisoning but that's only with supplements, not with meat itself. And like I said, moderation is absurd.
To prove that moderation is absurd, and we should rely on our basic instincts. Consider that most people believe low carb diets work because people spontaneously eat less. Let's put the weight loss aspect aside for a moment.
Why do people spontaneously eat less? Could it be because there's a system inside our bodies that regulates how much we eat? If that's not basic instincts taking over to control how much we eat, maybe I don't know what a basic instinct is.
But maybe moderation means to eat a little of everything. That's not moderation, that's variety. That makes no sense either. All other species basically eat the same thing day in day out for their whole lives. Why should it be different for humans? Anyway, we need the same nutrients day in day out for all of our lives. It's not like we need one nutrient Monday, and a different nutrient Friday. And we can get the same nutrients from the same foods day in day out.
And for all vegans out there. True compassion has no reward. Ethics are not static. And you are not special, moral, spiritual or ethical for your choice.
Although I do not wish this kind of attack on anyone. The victim has had a bad experience and is not objectively able to make sense of it. There is a strong inclination to speak in terms of 'us and them' and to go as far as to blame the act on a proper vegan diet. That is a direct reaction against her bad experience but it is nonetheless distorted. There is no mechanism of action by which berries and lettuce cause such violence. In fact meat intake correlates generally w/aggression.
@Chrisisms: Would not a good experience on a veg diet incline a person to fight stronger for it because that good experience is believed to be able to happen for everyone?
There are many people who have had to work meat back into their diets because of health concerns. That doesn't mean no one can be a veg though, just like you doing fine means everyone can be one.
European Journal of Social Psychology 33(1)37-56. Jul 2002
"participants perceived that meat symbolises the endorsement of inequality & hierarchy values more than other basic foods..& rejection of Openness values..
"increase in cortisol depended on the proportion of protein.. The extent of this increase in cortisol correlated significantly with poor psychological well-being in women. Psychosomatic Medicine 61:214-224 (1999)
I hear form a lot of arm chair evolutionists who say, "We evolved to eat meat...we have done it for hundreds of thousands of years...." Well, evolutionists, lets see what father of evoltionary biology says:
"...organic functions, customs and diets showed in an evident way that the normal food of man is vegetable like the anthropoids and apes and our canine teeth are less developed than theirs and we are not destined to compete with wild beasts or carnivorous animals." Charles Darwin
@FathomlessJoy: There lacks evidence that Darwin was a vegetarian, in college he was the president of the "Glutton Club" that ate strange types of meat, the quote seems to be taken out of context a bit as he was talking about the past, but even it it wasn't out best evidence now shows that humans are omnivores. If you like, I can provide a link that from a vegetarian doctor providing evidence that we are.
@DrKyure True, he was not a vegetarian until much later in life. I am sorry to report, however, that you missed the point. This was a counter argument to those who tout their tremendous knowledge of evolution to justify torture of animals and ingesting rotting flesh. That said, after years of eating all kinds of things, and after decades of studying the evolution of man, Darwin made his extreme expert conclusion known.
@FathomlessJoy: You could just say that an argument from tradition is a logical fallacy. A better response to you would be to say that we can turn non human food into human food and use animals in a way that would protect against bad crop yield years. The evolution thing is only really an argument if a you or anyone else tries to say humans are natural herbivores when we are closely related to pigs and dogs which are omnivores like us. We just evolved from herbivores to omnivores.
@FathomlessJoy: Yes, and as I said, if Darwin did say that humans were herbivores he would be incorrect in that statement with what we know now. That doesn't mean he is now 100% wrong though.
Science is ever changing, there is no guarantee that in the future there wouldn't be concrete evidence humans are natural herbivores, but right now, the evidence we have suggest omnivores. Though unless we find evidence we are all obligate omnivores, veg*anism is a valid choice for people who can do it.
@DrKyure "If you like, I can provide a link that from a vegetarian doctor providing evidence that we are." If you don't think it rude, please don't. I obviously have internet access and know what google is. We all have links to all kinds of experts with all kinds of biases who say all kinds of things on all sides of this. Frankly these types of discussions, while entertaining, are rather childish, just postponing action in our lives, which I find lazy.
If a dog ever attacked me, I don't care how potentially cute he can be. I'm gonna grab my Kabar and stab the fuck out of it. I don't have time to be petting him and bleeding to death. It's impossible! I already tried.
Typical leftist cowards seeking soft targets. I'll bet the same men that assaulted this women cry "sexist" if someone dared to criticize (let alone assault) a woman of their ideological persuasion. F***ing hypocrites!
Rotting flesh eaters are always begging healthy people to ingest rotting flesh. It is not to make the healthy person feel better, as the flesh eaters deceptively claim; it is, rather, to make the flesh eater feel better about the harm they do to themselves and others. See just the existence of someone, even 1 person in the entire world, who does not ingest rotting flesh is the nail in the flesh eater's coffin. They need 100% compliance or their lies are exposed. Peace, love, light.
Why are sick rotting flesh eaters obsessed with telling vegans to eat rotting flesh? Is it because the mere existence of vegetarians and vegans tells the corpse munchers that they are lying to themselves. You can eat and live healthy in this world without cruelty to animals. That is a fact, and me eating rotting flesh will not make that fact more digestible for the meat-tards.
@FathomlessJoy I can agree with you that animal husbandry most often is animal cruelty, and so the western diet is cruel, but Keith is against normal agriculture and for eating wild animals, how is that cruel? If an animal ends its life to feed me, is that worse than dieing of hunger or sickness caused by over population, or being killed by another predator like a wolf? If Keith is hostile to any race its the human race, and the human races exploitation of the earths energy and soil.
@0o0o099999 Ever been hunted? Ever been led to slaughter while watching your friends and family before you have their throats slit? Can I hunt you? Can I hunt your mom? Can I hunt your sister?
Ever been raped so that you can be inpregnated for parasites to suck off your milk 24/7?
We need to look at this as adults. There is simply no way to do this in a human way. Man is not meant to torture animals for food, and cannot live peacefully while he does it.
@FathomlessJoy I admire your stance, but I dont think Keith is the right target for you and your fundamentalist associates as she opposes any form of agriculture and only accepts eating wild animals . Keith has a concern that human population growth will lead to the earths soil getting depleted and that the energy required for fertilizing the soil will end. So if anything Keith is hostile to humans.
@0o0o099999 Unfortunately, most of the plant food on the planet is not used for humans. Most is used to fatten livestock that you torture and slaughter. I would look at the problem a little deeper. I understand, you like eating rotting flesh, therefore you are blinded and biased. Look deeper, see it for what it is.
@FathomlessJoy I know that youtube is the sewer of debate, but still it would help if you stayed on the topic without personal attacks, it would also benefit your cause. About the factual parts of your posts ; they are correct. What are the deeper things to consider? Something that will be revealed to me when i stop eating corpses? Being enigmatic only speeks to the already devoted.
@0o0o099999 It seems you have the victimhood role down. I don't know you personally. I am sure you are an ok person. But you do advocate the torture and slaughter of animals to consume their rotting flesh, right? Why would you feel attacked by someone who points it out? Seems like you just want sympathy without change.
Sewer? That is how I see swallowing rotting animals flesh; it is disgusting, right? Look at it for what it is. See the behavior as it is, and you will see the truth.
@FathomlessJoy hehe, i didnt accuse you of insulting me i just critiziced you way of argumenting. Well keep on preaching to the choir my friend, and please dont throw pies at people just because they eat dead animals
@0o0o099999 Listen I said up top that this harmless prank was uncalled for, or rather silly. So don't try to link me with it. Strange way YOU arguing, blaming others for things have not done and do no condone.
I am not arguing, right? Now, victim, where did I issue a personal attack against you? I said I don't know you personally.
Now let's cut to the chase: do you have a fucking point all?
@FathomlessJoy You definately like to characterize me more than countering my arguments. Take a look at yourself and how/if your helping your cause. Im not sure if i read your video description before or if you changed it but still you forfeit on this spesific issue by the euphemism "this harmless prank was not called for" so then you should not gloat over it but rather distance yourself from it. You've got shit all over your biggot face. Cheers from an animal lover :D
@0o0o099999 Are you waiting for others to take action? Waiting for the livestock industry to change? They won't. Keith with the Weston A. Price Foundation advances the interests of the livestock industry. She does this for money. It is a plain and simple.
The cool thing: you don't have to wait for others, for the industry to change, for the activists to march and modify the system. You can take action today. I did. And let me tell you brother it was BY FAR the best decision I have ever made!
@FathomlessJoy In my area of the world, if we stopped killing animals the deer population would increase further, causing disease and hunger among them, until the wolves return with a vengeance to reduce deer population. What would you as a humanist say to wolves killing your family? To keep records straight ; im in favor of having a strong population of wolves.
@0o0o099999 It seems like you have your excuses. I refuse in my life to live by excuses, rationalizations and justifications. I am concerned about health, compasion, peace, to live in decency on the planet. Do you want those? Those things are not discovered by more excuses, in fact excuses must come to an end.
@FathomlessJoy: Actually most of the "meatless" food that you eat in what I assume is a consumerist nation where you still have gadgets and processed veg foods are contaminated by things such as insect parts, rat hairs, and insect eggs, not to mention all of the products made from animal byproducts you use medicines being one of them.
So you are eating "rotting flesh," you are not a vegetarian or vegan per the definition of what one is, and do harm you justify to the planet and animals.
@DrKyure You assume too much. I do not eat any of that processed crap. Alright, I do have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on whole grain bread now and then, otherwise it is whole, mostly raw fruits and veggies.
As to the "byproducts," you answered your own question, right? These are *byproducts* of the torture, rape, enslavement, and slaughter of sentient beings for the pleasure of eating their rotting carcasses. Also, to say that you can't do it all means don't do anything is quite lazy.
@FathomlessJoy: Yeah....a mot of veggies are covered in bees wax. Though there are LOADS of products made from animals you likely use every day.
They are not byproducts from the weighted language you used. You could raise animals humanly and have the same by-products. It's Hair, bones, skin, fat, blood, hooves, and the like that humans don't eat. I personally think it's really good we use as much of the animals we can.
In western society you can't if you buy....anything.
@DrKyure I am not interested in more excuses. The products you claim, and there are vegan versions, are byproducts of torturing animals to eat rotting flesh. That is they don't torture the animals to use them as asphalt. After they torture and slaughter them and cut up their rotting parts for some humans to eat, the carcasses are then dead weight, so they find other uses, thus the word "byproduct." One who takes action has no use for excuses.
@FathomlessJoy: I'm not interested in your weighted language but you still use it.
Could a vegan then, eat meat if it was purchased by an omnivore who decided not to eat the entire thing? This is called freganism BTW. In no way have you contributed to the demand of meat, since it was already bought and would be thrown away. So only your disgust of meat would hold you back as it would be better to eat it since not eating it doesn't help animals.
@DrKyure I cannot apologize for not using euphemisms for the rape, torture, slaughter of animals to devour their rotten flesh. If the descriptions of your behavior bother you, perhaps there's something deeper for you to look at in yourself. Lies through language are common, I try not to participate in that where I can, and I do so out of respect and honesty toward all men.
Are you interested in health, nutrition, compassion, ecology at all? These are the reasons I do not eat meat.
@FathomlessJoy: On average animals are not raped and while factory farming is torturous for animals, this doesn't mean factory farming is the only way to raise animals. So you can through those two out. Next we come to slaughter. This is an appropriate term, though I still think you try to emphasize it. Then we come to rotting flesh. Meat isn't rotting, at least not in the way we commonly think of the term If it was we would be repulsed by it do to our evolution in what we can eat....
@DrKyure I just don't tell those lies anymore. You are looking for a way to enslave and exploit, rape and slaughter sentient beings for your pleasure humanely? That is a deep contradiction. You would be better off to just see it as the torture that it is and enjoy it than to construst such a complex web of deceit around it.
@FathomlessJoy: I don't support factory farming and one can simply let their animals roam around free, that gets rid of enslavement. We do eat them and use their milk/eggs. This can be considered exploitative and saying we give them shelter isn't saying much. Though eating animals that are wild wouldn't be exploitative.
Rape...isn't even a valid argument as few people rape animals and that has to do more with sexuality then eating them.
@DrKyure "I don't support factory farming" See this is an indication of the lie that is inside you. What do you care about factory farming? LOL You torture animals and eat their flesh and lie about it, what do you care how they are farmend? This is part of your blindness. I wish there were nicer words do tell you these things but I find the most direct approach the best.
@FathomlessJoy: Yes, we kill them to eat them. But, there is a difference between shooting a person in the stomach and the head. The pain of death will never be zero, but as long as we try the best we can, I personally have no problem with it.
No, we cared about animals before factory farming and people were OK with it for the most part as long as animals were treated humanely.
I said factory farms torture, I'm talking about humane farms, and actual humane farms, not humane by comparison.
@FathomlessJoy:....finally we come to flesh. Flesh, and meat, are OK terms, however flesh implies an undertone of disgust and meat implies an undertone of food. The scientific term for what we eat most often would be skeletal muscle, although we also eat organs.
No, you can be as graphic as you want, won't bother my stomach, if I wanted to upset it, I would eat some strong under cooked onion or garlic, that would do it.
@FathomlessJoy: What I take offense at is your appeal to emotion by using weighted language. I could say the say thing about just about any topic. "Are you really going to have an oddly shaped organ on your body shoved into another person's oddly shaped organ, or vice versa depending on your sex, just for pleasure and/or the hope that your genes will get passed on to another being that we aid the destruction of this planet? That's immoral."
@FathomlessJoy: See? Not that hard. I could likewise refer to you as a parasite or predator based on what you eat. If you kill entire plants, you're a predator, if you eat only parts, you're a parasite. The same for any other organism eating or eating on another.
Don't pull the "you know deep down what you are doing is wrong," argument. There is little difference in that and saying to someone that because they don't like something they do to be called a sin, they must know its wrong.
@DrKyure LOL Really? As an adult you really want to proffer that argument? Plants have feeligns too? LOL. check out the video Top 10 Stupid Things Vegans Hear on a Daily Basis. You will find your arguments in there. Plants have feelings. ROFL
@FathomlessJoy: I don't think I said anything about plants having feelings. I meant that I could classify you as a predator or a parasite based on how you eat food (in your case plants). I'm predator when I eat organisms that were killed and parasite when I eat parts of their bodies that left the ostracism alive, for both plants and animals, though I think most humans are only predators to animals. This is true, but saying a person is a parasite for eating fruit is weighted language.
@DrKyure Plant food is healthy, nature, decent, sustainable. We can produce is ecologically, with only energy of the sun and rain. Parasites just rape and pillage without plan or foresight. Take a look at the way mankind raises livestock and I think your label of parasite is much more befitting the meat eaters.
@DrKyure Again, why your deep need to blindly argue? You clearly have never look at these things for yourself, but you want to attack others who have. Why? Ask yourself: why am I arguing. You need to ask that quesiton of yourself right now.
@FathomlessJoy: Besides, very few plants have reaction times and nervous systems and even those don't mean pain. Usually just a response that helps them based upon evolution.
I could do the same for omnivores. Though again, I didn't say plants have feelings. That is something you read into what I said and mistook what I meant.
@DrKyure Plants do not have nervous systems, friend, you have been misinformed. I have heard these arguments before, they are not new or clever or intelligent. Do you have anything else? Did you ever ask yourself why the need to argue? Why formulate all these childish arguments?
@FathomlessJoy Research has shown that plants communicate and possibly can remember. To think that we know everything about plants is ignorant. I believe all living things should be respected and have no hatred for any living thing. I do not discriminate. I think people argue about this topic because they find that people who base their morality on a diet to be ridiculous. Moral superiority based on whether one thinks chickens have feelings miss the point on morality in the first place.
@meganovatron LOL You should look up the video Top 10 Stupid Thing Vegans Hear on a Daily Basis. So far all of you arguments are in the top 10. I am sorry, I don't mean to make fun of your personally, I am sure you are an ok person. It is just that I am into adult conversation with a basic honesty and I am sorry but you aren't bringing that here.
Now you have anything else because the unbeleivable stupid "plants have feelings too?" defense for torturing animals and eating their rotting carcass?
@DrKyure You do know deep down, otherwise you would not lie about it. You know it is a contradiction, that is why you are so fearful. Right? I don't have to make up words for my behavior and actions. I do not have to insight on others describe things the way that makes me feel better about my actions. I know I am living rightly by having a 100% healthy diet and 0% torture of animals. Your lies are what are revealing here.
@FathomlessJoy: This is a fallacy and doesn't do anything to help your argument. You are perhaps hoping that I feel this way based on past experiences, but this a the wrong way to think and instantly destroys most credibility. Don't tell people what they think. It almost never works.
Not really. Animals feel pain, OK, refrain from hitting them and kill them quickly then. That was easy.
Actually that is likely false if you consume any plants grown commercially. Harvesters still kill animals.
@DrKyure That is you lying to yourself. Quickly, slowly, painful, painless, why do you care? See there is a reason why you have to make that up in your mind. Get at the truth of that, friend.
@FathomlessJoy: You say I lie without saying where. I have told you the truth, based how I believe in things. So saying you lie to a person who believes in what they are saying isn't going to work.
You base too much on thinking you know how I feel.
@DrKyure I have repeatedly pointed to the basic lies. 1) you torture animals for pleasure, 2) you ingest rotting flesh. you lie about these two things over and over. If we cannot see these clearly, honestly, we cannot communicate.
@FathomlessJoy Wow. I can almost taste your self righteousness. It seems that your version of communication relies on someone else already agreeing with you. I am an animal and reading what you write and your thought process is torturing me, so looks like you and DrKyure agree on at least one point. You both enjoy torturing animals.
@meganovatron I am sorry, did you have a question, or just petty personal attacks?
One requirement for communication is basic honesty. How can we look at a problem if we do not see clearly that a problem exists? If I think it is ok to torture animals and lie about it, then I never address the problem, my inquiring thus my communication or finished. But if I am willing to look at some basic facts we can explore things.
@meganovatron Well there is where we came in: you are blind to the torture of sentient beings; how can I help you with that?
I used to see it as food too, friend, but I promise there is life beyond that sickness and death. You just have to be willing to learn a little. Are you willing to learn at all?
@meganovatron You have anything else besides torture denial and plant harm? LOL you are starting to bore me like the last moron ;) Seriously I would help you any way I can, but this is really rather comical. Now, how can I help?
I also do not see these as attacks or them as being petty. It's a question of whether or not you realize that you by way of the things you state are kind of ridiculous and you help spread negativity and ignorance most likely everywhere you go with you self righteous and ignorant attitudes. I feel this is an imaginary problem. But I also understand shallow, narcissistic and vain people use this as an argument for them to convince themselves they are good people. I just don't agree with it. Sorry
@meganovatron Kind of ridiculous? Like torturing animals for pleasure and lying about it as an adult? LOL. At least let us consider one fact: is animals flesh disease and rotting?
See man learned long ago that animal flesh was diseased and rotting. That is why he cooks it. But do you admit it? It seems like such a basic fact.
@FathomlessJoy I don't understand? If we are all part of the Earth and everything comes and goes and uses energy in it's own way, I simply don't see the difference between plants and animals, the only differences are the differences. Right? I believe that they both have a life force and both life forces are sacrificed for us to continue on. And I'm grateful for that. Besides plants rot too. They decompose like flesh.
She comes with a part of the sollution to get more food from the sun and not from the oil. Grassfed animals (no soy or corn) will give us a lot of what we really need.
Smoroga 2 weeks ago
"I was was a vegan for 20 years. " "I binged on eggs & dairy every chance I got." "Vegans eat beef once a week." ????
lazur1 3 weeks ago
"was merely speaking the truth and letting people decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong". Contradictory much?
FiveYearPayoff 3 weeks ago
The people who attacked her are people who cringe at the idea of animals being kept in cages! Humans are fair game, but don't mess with that animal! Just pathetic!
yafola1 1 month ago
@yafola1 "Humans are fair game..." Let's not overstate it. She got a little whip cream on her, from folks who were likely flesh eaters, who certainly didn't even know who she was or the WAPF she represents, playing a harmless prank. Boo hoo. Animals that she eats, however, are raped and tortured, enslaved and beaten every day of there miserable lives until they are mutilated and their bloody diseased bodies eaten. Seriously, if these folks were vegan, they would NOT have used whipped cream Peace
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@FathomlessJoy Hey! Animals raped? By whom? Enslaved? Really? That is the silliest shit I've ever heard! Dude, we will have to agree to disagree! Take care!
yafola1 1 month ago
@yafola1 "Hey! Animals raped? By whom? Enslaved? Really?" Yes. Care you find out for yourself? Are you adult enough, are you repsonsible enough to actually watch it? If so, check out Earthlings: watch?v=FHA4HNbmDLg
It is not about agreeing or disagreeing. It is about finding the truth. See if you really want to know the truth; watch it for yourself.
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@yafola1 "Animals raped?" You seem like a fairly educated person. How do you supposed tens of billions of livestock animals are reproduced every year? Think about it! It ain't by makin' sweet love....
The animals are sexually molestered, force into intercourse, rape by men's hands, arms, tools, etc. Watch Earthlings and get back to me, ok?
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@FathomlessJoy Make sweet love? Do cows make sweet love? I've never seen cows in the field cuddling and smoking joes, if you know what I mean. You are imposing human thoughts and feelings are animals. Animals should not be treated badly. Factory-like production of meat is absolutely odious, but mating animals is not rape, dude. I've seen it done and guess what? No rape counseling necessary afterwards and no PTSD. You sound like the one who is clueless! Sorry, but you do. Peace!:)
yafola1 1 month ago
@yafola1 "Make sweet love? Do cows make sweet love?" No, livestock cattle are raped, repeatedly, especially dairy cattle. You didn't watch Earthlings, did you?
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@FathomlessJoy I'm starting to wonder about you! Yeah, actually I did watch and it confirmed what I already know to be true and what I have said. Those "farms" are horrible and animals should be treated with kindness. You don't listen, do you? We are on the same side in that respect. However, you won't be happy until everyone agrees with you on every point. Mating, by the way is necessary for all animals. Otherwise, they go extinct. Many farm animals would be extinct if not eaten by us.
yafola1 1 month ago
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@yafola1 "You are imposing human thoughts and feelings are animals." Why don't we just consider the facts, then? Want to challenge yourself today? You want to know the truth? Cool! Watch Earthlings: watch?v=FHA4HNbmDLg. What you have to lose? It surely will show you the facts.
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@yafola1 "Animals should not be treated badly." Whose definition of "badly?" Yours? Mine? The profiteers? The politicians? It is like the US Supreme Court Justice once wrote about pornography: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." So we take the lame lazy way of reform, right? Put a little paint on the pig, as it were. Really? Can you reform something that is fundamentally flawed? Sorry, I have been told those lies my whole life. I don't buy that brand of birdie bullshit any more!
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@FathomlessJoy I can say this. You are definitely passionate, dude! That is always a good thing. Take care!
yafola1 1 month ago
@yafola1 "Factory-like production of meat is absolutely odious" You think that humans need to eat flesh, right? How you going to produce billions of animals to feed 7 billion people? Some mom and pop, gender gentler cattle garages? Frankly that is naive on many fronts, friend.
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@FathomlessJoy Hey, man! Been done before. How naive are you to think that feeding that many people a purely vegan diet won't have an impact? Do you know what we have done to this planet just by growing veggies and grains?
yafola1 1 month ago
@yafola1 When? Back when 7 billion aliens ran the factory farms? Foolish to recommend, as we cannot feed folks now, since most of the world's food and fresh water are used by the livestock industry. Flesh eaters are like a cancer.
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@yafola1 "but mating animals is not rape, dude." We are not talking about animals mating, buddy. You need to watch Earthlings: watch?v=FHA4HNbmDLg
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@yafola1 "You sound like the one who is clueles" Perhaps, but today I didn't rape and torture any animals, lie about my behavior to strangers, and direspect my body by putting diseased rotting carcass parts in my body. So I was smart enuf to figure that much out. Cheers, M8!
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@FathomlessJoy It has been fun, but you just keep repeating the same things. It is like debating with someone over the presence of a god. Round and round and round, with the "born again" never making a truly valid point or taking all things into consideration. You think eating meat is wrong. Don't eat it. I respect that. By the way, I don't eat diseased meat. I eat it nice, vital and fresh! Circle of life, mate!
yafola1 1 month ago
@yafola1 "It has been fun, but you just keep repeating the same things" It is hard to find anyone health conscious, compassionate, caring, and intelligent enuf to listen :(
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@FathomlessJoy Oh, poo! Don't be so sad. There are plenty of people who live, think, feel, believe, eat... the same way you do. Peace! :)
yafola1 1 month ago
@yafola1 Good lord, Are you going to be one of these stage 4 clingers, telling me over and over again how we are finished forever like forty times???
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@FathomlessJoy I'm clinging? Stop sending shit to my inbox, jackass! I said peace and then you replied. You are a psychopath! Peace! Don't reply!!! Done!!!
yafola1 1 month ago
@yafola1 No, you said peace after a bunch of half baked zombie propaganda that demanded response.
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@yafola1 "Round and round and round, with the "born again" I know what you mean! The zombies are like robots, repeating the same crazy stuff, just like the nut job Lierre Keith, right? Crazy lady that one!
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@yafola1 "You think eating meat is wrong" Actually thought and belief get in the way of our witness of the truth, right? I recommend dropping the dogma that has been force fed to you since you were born, thus seeing the world anew for yourself.
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@yafola1 "eat it nice, vital and fresh" The only person you are lying to is yourself :(
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
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@yafola1 "Circle of life, mate!" Not life if we were one of the cruely tortured animals on your plate, right matey?
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
Again, as a vegan I do not condone the actions of the individuals in this incident. While it's disheartening to hear Mrs. Keith make false claims about the majority of vegans, I am sympathetic to her experience and urge anyone who disagrees with her message to find more intelligent, peaceful and constructive ways to engage in this conversation.
myquestforhealth 2 months ago
livinlowcarblife, can either you or Mrs. Keith provide links to scientific studies that show evidence that being vegan leads to violence? Perhaps a study on violent offenders in our prison population would be a good place to start (though you already know what the findings will be). Please contact me and let me know when you have provided the factual basis for the claims stated in this video. Thanks.
myquestforhealth 2 months ago
First off, I do not condone the actions of the individuals in this video. That said, they represent the minority and not the majority of vegans.
The idea that being vegan makes you violent and destructive or that vegans are always on a hair trigger is one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard. As a vegan of 6 years and a vegetarian for 10 years prior to that, I have never felt healthier or more at peace.
I wish Mrs. Keith all the best but urge others to fact check these claims.
myquestforhealth 2 months ago
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good, she deserved it.
smurfieboo 2 months ago
@smurfieboo You're a fucking retard. The world needs to be cleansed of idiots like you. Assaulting a small defenseless woman? Normal human beings don't behave like his.
leonjay1 2 months ago
@leonjay1 I retract my comment after reading about her mental health problems. To pie someone with such a tenuous tie on reality is just plain cruel. After all, she called herself vegan for 20 years while "binging on meat and diary". Poor Lierre, she's so confused, so fucked up.
smurfieboo 2 months ago
That's awful, what happened to her. I do not associate myself with vegan's like this even though I am vegan. The few that are like this give all of us bad names. Shame on them! Very sad :(.
Nibbit 2 months ago
Bunch of pussies to pull that shit. I would have loved to have been there, I would have grabbed one of them and gotten security. I'm a big guy and not one to back down from witnessing someone perform a chickenshit act like that. Three people hiding behind masks purposefully endangering another person and running away is a load of crap.
If they feel that strongly about their convictions they should invite her to a debate. Challenge what she says with civility. F**k those cowards.
Rexhungus 2 months ago
I bet you think your really tough for saying that, when really you just sound like a fucking meathead... This writer has produced a poorly researched book posing as a factual, scientific one, when in fact she references mainly books, magazines, and websites (even wikipedia and google answers wtf?). Less than 8% of her book comes from peer-reviewed journals. This idiot journalist doesn't qualify for a serious debate.
elliotcavanagh 2 months ago
@elliotcavanagh So what.
Rexhungus 2 months ago
@elliotcavanagh Does that mean she should be assaulted?
leonjay1 2 months ago
Aw.... I'm sorry to hear u were in pain
m1occonor 2 months ago
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w w w-dot-nytimes -dot-com/2011/11/29/health/vitamin-b12-deficiency-can-cause-symptoms-that-mimic-aging-dot-html
zzap999 3 months ago
I don't like what this lady stands for....her research is very poor and respected by people that need reassurance, but wow..being violent is not the way to go..everybody is entitled to there opinon, respect it and move on.
AnandSwamy07 3 months ago
I thought the real vegan argument was about cruelty to animals. I changed my mind. The real vegan argument is:
If you disagree with us, we'll attack you with a cayenne pepper pie in the face.
JackFook 4 months ago 2
Funny about corpse munchers, they always say "vegans should just leave us alone wahhh, waaaahh waaaaaah!!" Ever try to actually leave them alone? You see some of the more agressive and violent behaviour come out of meat eaters when you do no want to engage in discussion with them and respectfully ask for them to allow you to leave them alone. LOL The contradictions abound.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
You simply cannot have compassion in your heart while you torture and eat animals.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Torture would depend on what you considered torture and how you raised animals. But you can have compassion for animals and still kill and eat them. Just because you can't or feel no one can, doesn't change reality.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure "compassion for animals and still kill and eat them" LOL Examine that uncompromising contradiction. Better yet haul your compassionate flesh eating ass down to the nearest slaughterhouse and witness the compassion for yourself. Ever been prodded to your death with a tazer? Ever watched your brothers and sisters get their throats slit before you and dangle there screaming, while you are pushed, punched and kicked to step up to the knife? You clearly have no concept of compassion, friend.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Examine the past. Humans have long believed that if we take an animal's life that we should respect it. The advent of factory farming is where there was a disconnect. Many vegs say that people wouldn't eat meat if they had to kill it themselves. The problem is that this is due to a disconnect that we now have and that most people actually did both kill animals and eat them not very long ago, and still do. These people usually don't become vegs.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: When you say slaughterhouse, do you mean a humane slaughter house or do you mean an industrial slaughter house? Would it not be better to ask me to kill an animal myself and eat it?
Disgust =/= morality.
Yes, I think we can safely say that anything that eats something else doesn't want to be eaten in that way. From humans to lions to cows, they wouldn't want to be eaten in the same way they eat their food. But so what? What's your point?
DrKyure 4 months ago
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FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: There is a difference between compassionate killing and industrial killing. If there wasn't, then you should say that you wouldn't prefer to be killed the non factory farm way vs the factory farm way.
DrKyure 4 months ago
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FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@DrKyure You suffer from sentient schizophrenia, it is a complication of speciesism. I know you think you are compassion but your ignorance shows when you state "compassion for animals and still kill and eat them." I know you tell yourself this to feel good about yourself, but feeling good about oneself rarely brings about needed change.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Problem, species and sentience isn't the basis that humans base importance on, it's familiarity and responsibility. For example, the burning house example. If there are 2 kids, your own and another, if sentience is all that mattered then you should flip a coin to decide which to save. If there is a human and a dog, many people would save the human over the dog, if we make the human a known murderer though, those same people would choose the dog.
DrKyure 4 months ago
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FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Also if intelligent aliens came to Earth and could communicate with us, I doubt we would try to eat them because they aren't human.
Sorry, but humans aren't speciesist just because we feel more responsible for our own species. This is why we take care of the mentally challenged and children, not because they will one day be or could have been sentient.
Also, it would be speciesist if we didn't do the same for all animals in need, which not even most vegs think.
DrKyure 4 months ago
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@DrKyure
"you can have compassion for animals and still kill"
If killing is your idea of compassion, who needs it?
Chrisisms 4 months ago
Also if anyone cares, look at the suggested videos to the right and watch shaolin kung fu expoding the meat myth...... these monks dont eat meat and look at all they can do?? now look at the meat eating Americans in walmart, which diet would you wanna follow for results?? Much love
ZachandBailey1111 4 months ago
@ZachandBailey1111: Just because there are people in the world who can not eat meat and be fine doesn't mean everyone will nor that everyone should.
This would be like saying the cases where people have died from malnutrition on a meatless diet prove that a meatless diet is a bad one.
DrKyure 4 months ago
What this lady is stating is an opinion, not fact, you could also read Dr. Grahams book 80/10/10 exposing meat myths, people need to research every angle before they believe anything... all I know meat made me lethargic and my stomach feel like a brick, vegatables and fruit makes me feel alive and look good and bonus is Im not hurting anything :D
ZachandBailey1111 4 months ago
@ZachandBailey1111: Just because someone has DR attached to their name doesn't mean they automatically know what they are saying. Case in point me. The problem is that people who believe in what they are saying and want to be right will fight as hard as they can to prove they are right. A veg diet can be healthy but that doesn't mean it is the only healthy diet.
You could also eat bivalves and not hurt them as they don't have a nervous system.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure I can't help that Doug Graham is a doctor, I only named a book that says otherwise than what this lady is saying, that fact that he was a doctor made no nevermind to me. I was pointing out that here this lady has a book about vegatarian myths and other people have books talking about how bad meat is, so you have to research every angle bc everyone says something different.......
ZachandBailey1111 4 months ago
@ZachandBailey1111: Yes people have angles based on their beliefs. Saying meat is unhealthy is closer to saying that drinking too much water can be unhealthy then saying drinking too much bear is unhealthy. Meat can be good for you, we simply eat too much of it and what we do it tends to be the "tastier" kind that is bad for us.
She was a vegan for 20 years and claims to have severe problems because of it. Most vegs are not at the same point, but then again, all people are different.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"Meat can be good for you, we simply eat too much of it and what we do it tends to be the "tastier" kind that is bad for us."
Can you provide a reference for that? My info says meat is not a problem, no matter what kind, no matter its taste, no matter how much. Instead, my info says it's all about sugar and starch.
Think about it. What's the thing inside meat that makes it bad? Is it the protein, the iron, the vitamins and minerals, the essential fatty acids?
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: From an environmental perspective we eat too much and we tend to eat more then we need. When I say the "bad" kind, I refer to high fat content red meat. This has the biggest risk of problems, however there is risk with every diet.
letthemeatmeat. com/page/10 >The interview with Gary F. should be the first post.
Yes, sugar can lead to diabetes, something I wish vegs would stop trying to say omnivores get more of.
Mostly sat. fats and cholesterol...in high doses, moderation is fine.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"When I say the "bad" kind, I refer to high fat content red meat."
So it's the fat in the red meat, and the red meat itself, is that right? Several problems with that idea. First, red meat is red because of iron. I doubt iron is what makes us sick. Second, if we don't eat fat, we have to eat something else, in this case it will be carbs. That's a problem in itself. Since it's clear that carbs are bad for us, then fat must be good for us. There's no other alternative.
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: Mostly fat and cholesterol, the bad kind at least, in high quantities. There is some evidence to suggest that fat isn't as bad as we think it is though. The red color is because of protein and dyes. The meat we eat tends to be colored red because that is what people expect.
No, you need fat in your diet, but I'm talking about eating too much fat, along with anything. Carbs are again fine in moderation. That doesn't me variation, that means eating the correct amount.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"Carbs are again fine in moderation."
How much carbs are we talking about here? 50g/day? 100g/day? 300g/day? Bear in mind the official nutritional guidelines say to eat at least 300g/day of carbs, no limit on refined sugars. And early research on diabetes says 70lbs/year (86g/day) of refined sugar and starch for 20 years is enough for diabetes to appear in any given population.
JackFook 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"Mostly fat and cholesterol, the bad kind at least, in high quantities."
What quantity is high quantities? There's no bad kind of cholesterol. Cholesterol is cholesterol is cholesterol. There's just one kind. Maybe you're referring to LDL and HDL? Those are not cholesterol, they are lipoproteins. Low Density Lipoprotein (LDL), High Density Lipoprotein (HDL).
JackFook 3 months ago
@DrKyure
You mention cholesterol as one reason meat is bad for us. Studies done on that show that dietary cholesterol has no effect on cholesterol in our blood. The only explanation is that cholesterol in our blood is tightly regulated. Maybe it's because it's essential to life. Cholesterol is used for all kinds of biological functions and even structure, not the least of which is cell wall and immune defense and nerve sheath insulation.
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: Yes, again, too much of the "bad" cholesterol can be bad for you. Again, humans can eat just about anything and be fine as long as the correct moderation is used. Too much or too little of most of the components, vitamins, and minerals we eat can harm us.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"moderation is fine."
Every time I hear that it doesn't make sense. Moderation implies that we should eat _less_ than we need, just to make sure we don't eat too much. If we do this, we will never have _enough_, and always have too little.
Moderation is absurd. Satiety and hunger make much more sense. Eat when hungry til full, stop when not hungry, repeat when hungry again, and so forth. Homeostatic systems take care of moderation naturally with zero intervention from us.
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: Not really, it means we should eat the correct amount and not to binge on anything, at least not for too long. So I disagree with you meaning of the word.
So then we should be able to drink soda and eat cake until we are full and be fine? Or would a rounded meal with fruit, meat, veggies, grains be better? Again, you can eat cake and drink soda, but just don't over do it.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"it means we should eat the correct amount"
That's vague. What is the correct amount? How much is too little, how much is too much, what's a good number in between?
JackFook 3 months ago
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@DrKyure
"So then we should be able to drink soda and eat cake until we are full and be fine?"
No, we should be able to drink _water_ and eat _food_ until we're full and be fine.
JackFook 3 months ago
@DrKyure
Moderation implies that we lost the basic instincts which regulate hunger, sleep, and basically all physiological functions, and instead we should make a conscious and continuous effort to regulate these systems, even when we sleep. How do all other species do it? Why should humans be different? The whole idea is just absurd.
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: Not to me. To me it means that we put too much emphasis on eating what we want to eat the most because we use to not get a lot of that so we would binge on fat and/or sugar when we could. Now we have plenty and don't need to do this. So moderating what we eat is the best.
Again, you seem to be over thinking moderation of what we eat. Just don't eat too much fatty foods or sugar and get all the nutrients you need. Simple as that.
They tend to binge because of scarceness.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"you seem to be over thinking moderation of what we eat."
What should I do instead, _under_think? Yeah, like that's the smart thing to do with nutritional science.
"Just don't eat too much fatty foods or sugar and get all the nutrients you need. Simple as that."
You know what's really simple? Clear precise instructions. Not vague advice to eat in moderation.
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: Take what I say at face value and don't use a slippery slope argument when your argument isn't what I'm saying. You don't have to be at the exact requirement. You can be a bit under or a bit over. What I'm saying is if you need to get say 10 grams of fat and 200 grams of protein per day, don't eat 200 grams of fat and 800 grams of protein. That is a bit over shot. Some things we simply don't need as much of as we eat and cutting back isn't a bad think.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"They tend to binge because of scarceness."
You're talking about the famine/abundance aspect of our evolution, right? When there's plenty of food, we fill up, grow fat, and can survive famine. Is that the idea? There's a problem with that. When we grow fat today, we also grow sick. That's not very good for survival. Remember, no medicine back then. When we're sick with diabetes, no medicine means death. Death means no offspring. No offspring means that's the end of the genetic line.
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: Diabetes is usually from too much sugar, if not genetic. That would be a good example of something we can cut back on.
I was talking more about animals. They eat what they can when they can because it is not guaranteed they will eat again very soon.
Our bodies act in much the same way. We hold on to energy dense fat really well because we needed it. Now we don't exactly need to do that, but an easy life isn't guaranteed so eating in moderation is needed.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
If it's the end of the genetic line, then it's impossible that we are the descendants of fat/sick/dead people. See the problem with that famine/abundance idea now?
Maybe it's the poverty/affluence idea instead? That doesn't work either. Look for Gary Taubes on Youtube. There's several lectures and he explains it so much better than I could.
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: Not sure what you mean.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
(cont'd) Plants contain all these things too. Protein, iron, vitamins, minerals, EFA, etc. All found in plants. Why would a vegan diet be any better than a mixed diet, if everything plants contained is also found in meat? What's the thing inside meat that makes meat bad for us?
JackFook 3 months ago
@JackFook: Plants have a lot of nutrients surrounded by cellulose or other non-digestible material for humans, but even in animals that are evolved to eat these plants, they don't get much nutrients out of them and have to eat a lot of it. Plants have quantity. Meat has quality. Animals can easily digest other animals, about 90% energy conversion, plants see about a 40% conversion.
Meat can overdose you and plants can malnourish you.
DrKyure 3 months ago
@DrKyure
"Meat can overdose you and plants can malnourish you."
I can understand why plants can malnourish us: We can't digest them properly. But I don't understand how meat can overdose us. I've gone over the details you mentioned and I just don't see anything that could overdose us. Maybe iron poisoning but that's only with supplements, not with meat itself. And like I said, moderation is absurd.
JackFook 3 months ago
@DrKyure
To prove that moderation is absurd, and we should rely on our basic instincts. Consider that most people believe low carb diets work because people spontaneously eat less. Let's put the weight loss aspect aside for a moment.
Why do people spontaneously eat less? Could it be because there's a system inside our bodies that regulates how much we eat? If that's not basic instincts taking over to control how much we eat, maybe I don't know what a basic instinct is.
JackFook 3 months ago
@DrKyure
But maybe moderation means to eat a little of everything. That's not moderation, that's variety. That makes no sense either. All other species basically eat the same thing day in day out for their whole lives. Why should it be different for humans? Anyway, we need the same nutrients day in day out for all of our lives. It's not like we need one nutrient Monday, and a different nutrient Friday. And we can get the same nutrients from the same foods day in day out.
JackFook 3 months ago
And for all vegans out there. True compassion has no reward. Ethics are not static. And you are not special, moral, spiritual or ethical for your choice.
meganovatron 4 months ago
Although I do not wish this kind of attack on anyone. The victim has had a bad experience and is not objectively able to make sense of it. There is a strong inclination to speak in terms of 'us and them' and to go as far as to blame the act on a proper vegan diet. That is a direct reaction against her bad experience but it is nonetheless distorted. There is no mechanism of action by which berries and lettuce cause such violence. In fact meat intake correlates generally w/aggression.
Chrisisms 4 months ago
@Chrisisms: Would not a good experience on a veg diet incline a person to fight stronger for it because that good experience is believed to be able to happen for everyone?
There are many people who have had to work meat back into their diets because of health concerns. That doesn't mean no one can be a veg though, just like you doing fine means everyone can be one.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure "There are many people who have had to work meat back into their diets because of health concerns"
False. If food is available there is no reason to 'work meat back into a diet'
Backlash is the phenomenon by which culturists return to meat intake, in spite of the health risks.
But back to the topic- There is no mechanism by which plant intake causes violence as the subject claimed. Do you have any info regarding this?
"you doing fine means everyone can be one."
????? Clarify.
Chrisisms 4 months ago
European Journal of Social Psychology 33(1)37-56. Jul 2002
"participants perceived that meat symbolises the endorsement of inequality & hierarchy values more than other basic foods..& rejection of Openness values..
"increase in cortisol depended on the proportion of protein.. The extent of this increase in cortisol correlated significantly with poor psychological well-being in women. Psychosomatic Medicine 61:214-224 (1999)
Chrisisms 4 months ago
I hear form a lot of arm chair evolutionists who say, "We evolved to eat meat...we have done it for hundreds of thousands of years...." Well, evolutionists, lets see what father of evoltionary biology says:
"...organic functions, customs and diets showed in an evident way that the normal food of man is vegetable like the anthropoids and apes and our canine teeth are less developed than theirs and we are not destined to compete with wild beasts or carnivorous animals." Charles Darwin
Normal?
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: There lacks evidence that Darwin was a vegetarian, in college he was the president of the "Glutton Club" that ate strange types of meat, the quote seems to be taken out of context a bit as he was talking about the past, but even it it wasn't out best evidence now shows that humans are omnivores. If you like, I can provide a link that from a vegetarian doctor providing evidence that we are.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure True, he was not a vegetarian until much later in life. I am sorry to report, however, that you missed the point. This was a counter argument to those who tout their tremendous knowledge of evolution to justify torture of animals and ingesting rotting flesh. That said, after years of eating all kinds of things, and after decades of studying the evolution of man, Darwin made his extreme expert conclusion known.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: You could just say that an argument from tradition is a logical fallacy. A better response to you would be to say that we can turn non human food into human food and use animals in a way that would protect against bad crop yield years. The evolution thing is only really an argument if a you or anyone else tries to say humans are natural herbivores when we are closely related to pigs and dogs which are omnivores like us. We just evolved from herbivores to omnivores.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Yes, and as I said, if Darwin did say that humans were herbivores he would be incorrect in that statement with what we know now. That doesn't mean he is now 100% wrong though.
Science is ever changing, there is no guarantee that in the future there wouldn't be concrete evidence humans are natural herbivores, but right now, the evidence we have suggest omnivores. Though unless we find evidence we are all obligate omnivores, veg*anism is a valid choice for people who can do it.
DrKyure 4 months ago
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FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
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@DrKyure "If you like, I can provide a link that from a vegetarian doctor providing evidence that we are." If you don't think it rude, please don't. I obviously have internet access and know what google is. We all have links to all kinds of experts with all kinds of biases who say all kinds of things on all sides of this. Frankly these types of discussions, while entertaining, are rather childish, just postponing action in our lives, which I find lazy.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
If a dog ever attacked me, I don't care how potentially cute he can be. I'm gonna grab my Kabar and stab the fuck out of it. I don't have time to be petting him and bleeding to death. It's impossible! I already tried.
RickiSanchez 4 months ago
Typical leftist cowards seeking soft targets. I'll bet the same men that assaulted this women cry "sexist" if someone dared to criticize (let alone assault) a woman of their ideological persuasion. F***ing hypocrites!
muzzster1970 4 months ago 2
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Terre Verde interview @ Berkeley 5:30 "But I certainly binged on eggs and dairy every chance I got"...? wwwDOTkpfaDOTorg/archive/id/64995
FruitarianSwimster 4 months ago
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Rotting flesh eaters are always begging healthy people to ingest rotting flesh. It is not to make the healthy person feel better, as the flesh eaters deceptively claim; it is, rather, to make the flesh eater feel better about the harm they do to themselves and others. See just the existence of someone, even 1 person in the entire world, who does not ingest rotting flesh is the nail in the flesh eater's coffin. They need 100% compliance or their lies are exposed. Peace, love, light.
FathomlessJoy 5 months ago
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FathonlessJoy, Your hysterical ravings are enough to convince me that you are mentally unstable.
shirehorse91 5 months ago
Why are sick rotting flesh eaters obsessed with telling vegans to eat rotting flesh? Is it because the mere existence of vegetarians and vegans tells the corpse munchers that they are lying to themselves. You can eat and live healthy in this world without cruelty to animals. That is a fact, and me eating rotting flesh will not make that fact more digestible for the meat-tards.
FathomlessJoy 5 months ago
@FathomlessJoy Oh brother!
livinlowcarbman 5 months ago 7
@FathomlessJoy You sound like someone desperately suffering from brain fog. You might be protein deprived.
MsSonya273 5 months ago 2
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@MsSonya273 Got rot?
FathomlessJoy 5 months ago
@FathomlessJoy I can agree with you that animal husbandry most often is animal cruelty, and so the western diet is cruel, but Keith is against normal agriculture and for eating wild animals, how is that cruel? If an animal ends its life to feed me, is that worse than dieing of hunger or sickness caused by over population, or being killed by another predator like a wolf? If Keith is hostile to any race its the human race, and the human races exploitation of the earths energy and soil.
0o0o099999 4 months ago
@0o0o099999 Ever been hunted? Ever been led to slaughter while watching your friends and family before you have their throats slit? Can I hunt you? Can I hunt your mom? Can I hunt your sister?
Ever been raped so that you can be inpregnated for parasites to suck off your milk 24/7?
We need to look at this as adults. There is simply no way to do this in a human way. Man is not meant to torture animals for food, and cannot live peacefully while he does it.
Peace.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy I admire your stance, but I dont think Keith is the right target for you and your fundamentalist associates as she opposes any form of agriculture and only accepts eating wild animals . Keith has a concern that human population growth will lead to the earths soil getting depleted and that the energy required for fertilizing the soil will end. So if anything Keith is hostile to humans.
0o0o099999 4 months ago
@0o0o099999 Unfortunately, most of the plant food on the planet is not used for humans. Most is used to fatten livestock that you torture and slaughter. I would look at the problem a little deeper. I understand, you like eating rotting flesh, therefore you are blinded and biased. Look deeper, see it for what it is.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy I know that youtube is the sewer of debate, but still it would help if you stayed on the topic without personal attacks, it would also benefit your cause. About the factual parts of your posts ; they are correct. What are the deeper things to consider? Something that will be revealed to me when i stop eating corpses? Being enigmatic only speeks to the already devoted.
0o0o099999 4 months ago
@0o0o099999 It seems you have the victimhood role down. I don't know you personally. I am sure you are an ok person. But you do advocate the torture and slaughter of animals to consume their rotting flesh, right? Why would you feel attacked by someone who points it out? Seems like you just want sympathy without change.
Sewer? That is how I see swallowing rotting animals flesh; it is disgusting, right? Look at it for what it is. See the behavior as it is, and you will see the truth.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy hehe, i didnt accuse you of insulting me i just critiziced you way of argumenting. Well keep on preaching to the choir my friend, and please dont throw pies at people just because they eat dead animals
0o0o099999 4 months ago
@0o0o099999 Listen I said up top that this harmless prank was uncalled for, or rather silly. So don't try to link me with it. Strange way YOU arguing, blaming others for things have not done and do no condone.
I am not arguing, right? Now, victim, where did I issue a personal attack against you? I said I don't know you personally.
Now let's cut to the chase: do you have a fucking point all?
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy You definately like to characterize me more than countering my arguments. Take a look at yourself and how/if your helping your cause. Im not sure if i read your video description before or if you changed it but still you forfeit on this spesific issue by the euphemism "this harmless prank was not called for" so then you should not gloat over it but rather distance yourself from it. You've got shit all over your biggot face. Cheers from an animal lover :D
0o0o099999 1 month ago
@0o0o099999 "Cheers from an animal lover" Don't you eat animals?
FathomlessJoy 1 month ago
@0o0o099999 Are you waiting for others to take action? Waiting for the livestock industry to change? They won't. Keith with the Weston A. Price Foundation advances the interests of the livestock industry. She does this for money. It is a plain and simple.
The cool thing: you don't have to wait for others, for the industry to change, for the activists to march and modify the system. You can take action today. I did. And let me tell you brother it was BY FAR the best decision I have ever made!
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy In my area of the world, if we stopped killing animals the deer population would increase further, causing disease and hunger among them, until the wolves return with a vengeance to reduce deer population. What would you as a humanist say to wolves killing your family? To keep records straight ; im in favor of having a strong population of wolves.
0o0o099999 4 months ago
@0o0o099999 It seems like you have your excuses. I refuse in my life to live by excuses, rationalizations and justifications. I am concerned about health, compasion, peace, to live in decency on the planet. Do you want those? Those things are not discovered by more excuses, in fact excuses must come to an end.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Actually most of the "meatless" food that you eat in what I assume is a consumerist nation where you still have gadgets and processed veg foods are contaminated by things such as insect parts, rat hairs, and insect eggs, not to mention all of the products made from animal byproducts you use medicines being one of them.
So you are eating "rotting flesh," you are not a vegetarian or vegan per the definition of what one is, and do harm you justify to the planet and animals.
Pwnd!
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure You assume too much. I do not eat any of that processed crap. Alright, I do have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on whole grain bread now and then, otherwise it is whole, mostly raw fruits and veggies.
As to the "byproducts," you answered your own question, right? These are *byproducts* of the torture, rape, enslavement, and slaughter of sentient beings for the pleasure of eating their rotting carcasses. Also, to say that you can't do it all means don't do anything is quite lazy.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Yeah....a mot of veggies are covered in bees wax. Though there are LOADS of products made from animals you likely use every day.
They are not byproducts from the weighted language you used. You could raise animals humanly and have the same by-products. It's Hair, bones, skin, fat, blood, hooves, and the like that humans don't eat. I personally think it's really good we use as much of the animals we can.
In western society you can't if you buy....anything.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure I am not interested in more excuses. The products you claim, and there are vegan versions, are byproducts of torturing animals to eat rotting flesh. That is they don't torture the animals to use them as asphalt. After they torture and slaughter them and cut up their rotting parts for some humans to eat, the carcasses are then dead weight, so they find other uses, thus the word "byproduct." One who takes action has no use for excuses.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: I'm not interested in your weighted language but you still use it.
Could a vegan then, eat meat if it was purchased by an omnivore who decided not to eat the entire thing? This is called freganism BTW. In no way have you contributed to the demand of meat, since it was already bought and would be thrown away. So only your disgust of meat would hold you back as it would be better to eat it since not eating it doesn't help animals.
Thus, vegans don't exist. So lighten up yo.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure I cannot apologize for not using euphemisms for the rape, torture, slaughter of animals to devour their rotten flesh. If the descriptions of your behavior bother you, perhaps there's something deeper for you to look at in yourself. Lies through language are common, I try not to participate in that where I can, and I do so out of respect and honesty toward all men.
Are you interested in health, nutrition, compassion, ecology at all? These are the reasons I do not eat meat.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: On average animals are not raped and while factory farming is torturous for animals, this doesn't mean factory farming is the only way to raise animals. So you can through those two out. Next we come to slaughter. This is an appropriate term, though I still think you try to emphasize it. Then we come to rotting flesh. Meat isn't rotting, at least not in the way we commonly think of the term If it was we would be repulsed by it do to our evolution in what we can eat....
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure I just don't tell those lies anymore. You are looking for a way to enslave and exploit, rape and slaughter sentient beings for your pleasure humanely? That is a deep contradiction. You would be better off to just see it as the torture that it is and enjoy it than to construst such a complex web of deceit around it.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: I don't support factory farming and one can simply let their animals roam around free, that gets rid of enslavement. We do eat them and use their milk/eggs. This can be considered exploitative and saying we give them shelter isn't saying much. Though eating animals that are wild wouldn't be exploitative.
Rape...isn't even a valid argument as few people rape animals and that has to do more with sexuality then eating them.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure "I don't support factory farming" See this is an indication of the lie that is inside you. What do you care about factory farming? LOL You torture animals and eat their flesh and lie about it, what do you care how they are farmend? This is part of your blindness. I wish there were nicer words do tell you these things but I find the most direct approach the best.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Yes, we kill them to eat them. But, there is a difference between shooting a person in the stomach and the head. The pain of death will never be zero, but as long as we try the best we can, I personally have no problem with it.
No, we cared about animals before factory farming and people were OK with it for the most part as long as animals were treated humanely.
I said factory farms torture, I'm talking about humane farms, and actual humane farms, not humane by comparison.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy:....finally we come to flesh. Flesh, and meat, are OK terms, however flesh implies an undertone of disgust and meat implies an undertone of food. The scientific term for what we eat most often would be skeletal muscle, although we also eat organs.
No, you can be as graphic as you want, won't bother my stomach, if I wanted to upset it, I would eat some strong under cooked onion or garlic, that would do it.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: What I take offense at is your appeal to emotion by using weighted language. I could say the say thing about just about any topic. "Are you really going to have an oddly shaped organ on your body shoved into another person's oddly shaped organ, or vice versa depending on your sex, just for pleasure and/or the hope that your genes will get passed on to another being that we aid the destruction of this planet? That's immoral."
DrKyure 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: See? Not that hard. I could likewise refer to you as a parasite or predator based on what you eat. If you kill entire plants, you're a predator, if you eat only parts, you're a parasite. The same for any other organism eating or eating on another.
Don't pull the "you know deep down what you are doing is wrong," argument. There is little difference in that and saying to someone that because they don't like something they do to be called a sin, they must know its wrong.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure LOL Really? As an adult you really want to proffer that argument? Plants have feeligns too? LOL. check out the video Top 10 Stupid Things Vegans Hear on a Daily Basis. You will find your arguments in there. Plants have feelings. ROFL
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: I don't think I said anything about plants having feelings. I meant that I could classify you as a predator or a parasite based on how you eat food (in your case plants). I'm predator when I eat organisms that were killed and parasite when I eat parts of their bodies that left the ostracism alive, for both plants and animals, though I think most humans are only predators to animals. This is true, but saying a person is a parasite for eating fruit is weighted language.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure Plant food is healthy, nature, decent, sustainable. We can produce is ecologically, with only energy of the sun and rain. Parasites just rape and pillage without plan or foresight. Take a look at the way mankind raises livestock and I think your label of parasite is much more befitting the meat eaters.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@DrKyure Again, why your deep need to blindly argue? You clearly have never look at these things for yourself, but you want to attack others who have. Why? Ask yourself: why am I arguing. You need to ask that quesiton of yourself right now.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: Besides, very few plants have reaction times and nervous systems and even those don't mean pain. Usually just a response that helps them based upon evolution.
I could do the same for omnivores. Though again, I didn't say plants have feelings. That is something you read into what I said and mistook what I meant.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure Plants do not have nervous systems, friend, you have been misinformed. I have heard these arguments before, they are not new or clever or intelligent. Do you have anything else? Did you ever ask yourself why the need to argue? Why formulate all these childish arguments?
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy Research has shown that plants communicate and possibly can remember. To think that we know everything about plants is ignorant. I believe all living things should be respected and have no hatred for any living thing. I do not discriminate. I think people argue about this topic because they find that people who base their morality on a diet to be ridiculous. Moral superiority based on whether one thinks chickens have feelings miss the point on morality in the first place.
meganovatron 4 months ago
@meganovatron LOL You should look up the video Top 10 Stupid Thing Vegans Hear on a Daily Basis. So far all of you arguments are in the top 10. I am sorry, I don't mean to make fun of your personally, I am sure you are an ok person. It is just that I am into adult conversation with a basic honesty and I am sorry but you aren't bringing that here.
Now you have anything else because the unbeleivable stupid "plants have feelings too?" defense for torturing animals and eating their rotting carcass?
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@DrKyure You do know deep down, otherwise you would not lie about it. You know it is a contradiction, that is why you are so fearful. Right? I don't have to make up words for my behavior and actions. I do not have to insight on others describe things the way that makes me feel better about my actions. I know I am living rightly by having a 100% healthy diet and 0% torture of animals. Your lies are what are revealing here.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: This is a fallacy and doesn't do anything to help your argument. You are perhaps hoping that I feel this way based on past experiences, but this a the wrong way to think and instantly destroys most credibility. Don't tell people what they think. It almost never works.
Not really. Animals feel pain, OK, refrain from hitting them and kill them quickly then. That was easy.
Actually that is likely false if you consume any plants grown commercially. Harvesters still kill animals.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure That is you lying to yourself. Quickly, slowly, painful, painless, why do you care? See there is a reason why you have to make that up in your mind. Get at the truth of that, friend.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy: You say I lie without saying where. I have told you the truth, based how I believe in things. So saying you lie to a person who believes in what they are saying isn't going to work.
You base too much on thinking you know how I feel.
DrKyure 4 months ago
@DrKyure I have repeatedly pointed to the basic lies. 1) you torture animals for pleasure, 2) you ingest rotting flesh. you lie about these two things over and over. If we cannot see these clearly, honestly, we cannot communicate.
So, is there anything else I can help you with?
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy Wow. I can almost taste your self righteousness. It seems that your version of communication relies on someone else already agreeing with you. I am an animal and reading what you write and your thought process is torturing me, so looks like you and DrKyure agree on at least one point. You both enjoy torturing animals.
meganovatron 4 months ago
@meganovatron I am sorry, did you have a question, or just petty personal attacks?
One requirement for communication is basic honesty. How can we look at a problem if we do not see clearly that a problem exists? If I think it is ok to torture animals and lie about it, then I never address the problem, my inquiring thus my communication or finished. But if I am willing to look at some basic facts we can explore things.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy I don't see it as torture. It is food pure and simple. I grew up in the country around farms.
meganovatron 4 months ago
@meganovatron Well there is where we came in: you are blind to the torture of sentient beings; how can I help you with that?
I used to see it as food too, friend, but I promise there is life beyond that sickness and death. You just have to be willing to learn a little. Are you willing to learn at all?
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy See what I mean. I never said plants have feelings. You will justify your own shallow self satisfying beliefs regardless.
meganovatron 4 months ago
@meganovatron You have anything else besides torture denial and plant harm? LOL you are starting to bore me like the last moron ;) Seriously I would help you any way I can, but this is really rather comical. Now, how can I help?
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
I also do not see these as attacks or them as being petty. It's a question of whether or not you realize that you by way of the things you state are kind of ridiculous and you help spread negativity and ignorance most likely everywhere you go with you self righteous and ignorant attitudes. I feel this is an imaginary problem. But I also understand shallow, narcissistic and vain people use this as an argument for them to convince themselves they are good people. I just don't agree with it. Sorry
meganovatron 4 months ago
@meganovatron Kind of ridiculous? Like torturing animals for pleasure and lying about it as an adult? LOL. At least let us consider one fact: is animals flesh disease and rotting?
See man learned long ago that animal flesh was diseased and rotting. That is why he cooks it. But do you admit it? It seems like such a basic fact.
FathomlessJoy 4 months ago
@FathomlessJoy I don't understand? If we are all part of the Earth and everything comes and goes and uses energy in it's own way, I simply don't see the difference between plants and animals, the only differences are the differences. Right? I believe that they both have a life force and both life forces are sacrificed for us to continue on. And I'm grateful for that. Besides plants rot too. They decompose like flesh.
meganovatron 4 months ago