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From: cirebanks
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  • See this NEW RAPTURE video.

    click my screen name : )

  • Im crying right now because i done alot of bad stuff n i dont want to stay i want to go with him

  • this is Awesome! Whoever put this together, Great Job! Oh, praise the Lord! Live for him while you can! He is coming back , it will be a glorious, all time best day in the world for those who know him. If you dont know him, it will be the most horrible day on earth. Get alone with God, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.

  • "The Rapture is a glorious event . Christ will gather up his church(his believers) to heaven before the end times." The son of man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Luke 12:40

  • people say this is a fairytale a joke that decieves many. but what if this fairytale is a reality....we cant know how exactly God created us or the Earth, its not for us to know. But God is smart and hes making judgement easy by seperating the faith from earthly rocks. beileve it or not but christianity is always attack because this is the most realist religion in man kind. just like Jesus said, "Great things shall come to pass".

  • They look to me as are vaporised with HARP, remeber that The Women will be bringed in wildenes on the 'wings' were to be feeded for last tree and half years of Tribulation.

  • I find it hard to believe that this would ever happen. ..but if it did and the one you loved stayed behind what would you do? Would you abandon the one you love? I would not, though i am an atheist, i would not abandon the people i love even for eternal paradise. I would stay with them and suffer...leaving those you love behind is just cowardice. What would paradise be like if the one you loved the most stayed behind.

  • the guy lost his wife made me cry ='(

  • this is pretty sad

  • love the video man...

  • i baptised myself a year ago, but i believe in God with my heart, and I know that i need to do more than that, that I need to do things for God, like spreading His word, I hope i could get some support by praying for anyone who reads this...

    God Bless you all

  • GOD, WE ARE WAITING FOR YOU. PATIENTLY

  • GOD, WE ARE WAITING FOR YOU. PATIENTLY

  • "I am waiting patiently for this glorious event, to finally be with my Savior Jesus, and with the rest of us believers to be with Our Lord forever."

  • I believe that Jesus is coming back, but I don't think it's on a given date. Because it specifically says in the Bible that not even the angels know when the end of time is. o3o

  • Provide any sort of proof this that is the not the bible or some wingnut coming up with a conspiracy theory.

  • Delusional  much?

  • The Gospel of Matthew tell us there will be some tribulation before the rapture. Read Matthew 24.

  • @HedeenJeff There are 2 raptures, one before the tribulation and one after

  • @cirebanks Yes, the first time he comes with his Holy angels to gather his elect and then, seven years of tribulation, after that the ressurection where the dead in Chrsit rise first, the non believers will be ressurected following the milenial Kingdom for the Great White Throne Judgement.

  • Jesus Christ died on the cross and shed His precious blood for our sins!!! The only way to get into Heaven is to Repent and accept Jesus Christ into your heart as Lord and Savior!!!! I long for the day when Jesus Christ comes again and takes all of His children Home to Heaven!! I'm excited!!! All that you have to do is to Repent and accept Jesus Christ into your heart as Lord and Savior!!! I'm expecting Jesus to return THIS YEAR, 2010!!!!!! Thank You Jesus!!!

  • Rapture ready. Are you?

  • I think rapture will happen this year 2010

  • I do not believe in a rapture, but I don't understand how many confuse or mingle the different subjects by combining the Day of the LORD (judgement day), with the Tribulation, with when satan is bottled up for a little bit then let back out to Temp us for a little while

    REV 2:26 speaks of keeping God's works until the end

    REV 3:10 speaks of keeping some from the hour of temptation,

    the key word here is temptation not judgement day, not the tribulation

    Matthew 24:13 & 24:29-31 clarity

  • very powerful message.

  • Only the ''remaining'' will be transformed to meet the Lord in the Air.

    The other Saints are acorrding to prophecy to be slaughtered ......... Remeber how many of God's people have been killed, So why do you people lie about how the Church will not be here when the Tribulation begins?.... Because you have had your ears tickled by seducing spirits...

  • The TARES are gathered first, NOT the Church.

    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

  • @onetwopussies The tares are not gathered first...Revelations 14:14-20...God's people are gathered first by Jesus himself, then the Angels thrust their sharp sickle and the wrath of God is poured out, read it for your self. There is two parts of the harvest recorded in the Torah. The first fruits are gathered at the end of spring and the end gathering occurs in the fall. One before or in mid Tribulation and the other at the end of the tribulation

  • Some people think the rapture is going to be someday in 2010

  • are you ready?

  • i got interested in learning about the rapture ever since i stumbled upon a site that deals with the end times.this vid is so true that i have no words to describe what i think.i know for a fact time is short and humanity is gonna face something that's gonna change history.people may think God is a fairy-tale but there is more proof than ever b4 that proves God exists and the bible is truth.

    MY lord and savior is returning at any time.I am ready are you?

  • when the time comes, pls Lord Jesus rapture us all who believes & faith in you

  • somewhere in the Bible it says..."let him guard his clothes, least he walk naked and people see his shame..." no-duh! but people in Barcelorna, Spain are starting to walk around stark naked in public...and they're not ashamed!?

  • its funny because most people who dont believe have never touched a bible.

  • I think this will happen,...........and if u dont believe this, is cuz u havent been saved yet.

  • dethlok7 : We must allow the love of God to fully flow within us, through that we will keep the law within our hearts. Christianity is not about law and rules, Its about a realtionship with Christ and through that realtionship the laws of God will become easy to follow.

  • @aldernagon3 It is only a fool who says in his heart "There is no God".

  • I believe this is coming. Don't believe those who date it, or "know" over what time frame it will occur. Will be limited to

    the good people of the world: the innocent, the faith keepers and those who

    observe the commandments, whatever their formal beliefs are.

  • @bookkeeper57 you are right on!

  • Comment removed

  • I got chill bumps....this is so powerful.

  • @ilovelucyrox22

    That's probably the Holy Spirit in you... :)

  • @ilovelucyrox22

    That's probably the Holy Spirit in you... :)

  • life is not about the end, its how you get there

  • @aldernagon3 : No, not anything. True Christians test everything by the Word of God. "FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DECEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, AND THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST. THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD."(I Thes. 4:16,17)

  • Visit Family Radio web site for local radio station Listings AM/FM shortwave, internet broadcasting 24 X 7, Now 50 languages covering the world pro- claiming GODS timeline for the history of the World from start to finish Call 1 800 543 1495 for ALL FREE material or Order on line. Suggested reading WE ARE ALMOST THERE I HOPE GOD WILL SAVE ME TIME HAS AN END THE END OF THE CHURCH AGE AND AFTER ADAM WHEN? READ THE BIBLE!
  • @aldernagon3: I have always been a skeptic of the words of "experts" and I believe in the rapture. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah. Look at the flood. God rescues His children from His judgment. The tribulation, also known as the Day of Jacob's Trouble, is a time unparalleled. God's judgment will be poured out. Repent.

  • Well I guess I'm a moron then, but I just won't believe in anything but the truth, and the truth is Jesus, but the question is will I still be a moron when I get raptured? (if it comes in my lifetime)

  • alderagon3: dude GOD BLESS you'll be staying.. ENJOY.

  • aldernagon3 I believe this, and I'm no moron because I wont believe in just anything. I believe That God is sovereign, that He loves us all, that Jesus died on the cross so all our wrong doings so we can have a relationship with God......and if the rapture should come in my life time then I don't plan on getting left behind :)

  • Great video!1

  • People have been claiming that the rapture will occur "now" since the beginning of Christianity. Still waiting...

  • There is a reason why u are watching this .

  • Then,why are u watching this? There is a reason.

  • For it is written, It is afool who said in his hart there is no God!!!!

  • For it is written, It is afool who said in his hart there is no God!!!!

  • God will claim His chosen ones but not like ths...

  • i understand why people have a hard time learning what the bible means and finding the proof that God exists.the bible is confusing to understand even for me but i take the time to understand it(10-15mins a day).

    i have no doubt in my mind that Jesus Christ is gonna return soon.after reading my bible and look at today's world it made me realize how much the bible is real.the signs which Jesus left match up with today's world...look it up if you like I'm "Insane".

    proof is there just read it

  • I am not a moron and I believe this. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't say such a thing. I found you comment offending and very affensive. How humane of you?

  • I wouldn't call someone a moron for their belief systems. Perhaps the only moron, is those who diss this? hmmmmm..... yea i think so

  • I wouldn't call someone a moron for their belief system. Thats just not humane. Perhaps the moron is those who diss this????? hummmm yea.

  • he who save his own life will lose it, but he lose his life for CHRIST sake will found it.

  • you must also follow his commandments..the 10 commandments..Jesus said, if you love me will keep my commandments..and come under the blood of christ..

  • oh you mean the 126 commandments there are 126 commandments he asks you to try to follow we are not perfect if you can follow all gods commandments then you are saying you are perfect and the only perfect one is jesus and god are you jesus or god no you arnt

  • is incest a sin? I think it is, then how did we go from 2 people (adam and eve) to a population of over 7 billion? It all had to start with incest right?

  • waiting on the lord

  • hope the waiting wont be forever, i'm ready to go!!!!!!! to get away from such a corrupted world

  • We don't know the day or the hour but we can know the times and the seasons and that summer is near

  • This is sooooo true. So many people joke about this, but the scriptures tell us that there will be scoffers asking 'where is this Jesus'.

    If you are left behind do not take the mark of loyalty. Do NOT it will damn your soul to hell for eternity. We are in such a technological society that the bio chip will be ask for when terrorism and personal ID theft get so bad people will welcome the bio chip.

    It says "All will receive the mark".

    Ask Jesus for forgiveness and live with him in heaven.

  • We are in the end time(As the days of Noah) and be Rapture ready...

  • wow. that video was amazing. thank you so much for posting that. god bless

  • The Rapture is soon to come very soon, so I ask all of you who are not saved to get down on your knees, and repent of your sins today. Accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and savior today! Let him come into your hearts, minds, bodies, and souls today. Drop what your friends, family will say, and just come to him. god is tugging at peoples hearts. I ask you know, come to him today because tomorrow is not promised to you! Saved ones, keep prayin, and be ready when the rapture hits!

  • this is a goos video this will happen andthose who aint living for god will get stuck behind and ill try my best to be ready for that day god bless

  • TONYBUCK,

    "this is a goos video" -- Did you mean "goose" video?

    "will get stuck behind" -- Another Freudian slip?!

    Better watch that stuff!

  • @TONYBUCK713 Do more then try. Can't miss the rapture for the world. You will miss everything, if you miss it.

  • dont forget to save people before it happens

    \

  • Only God knows when... REPENT OUR SINS AND ACCEPT CHRIST AS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.

  • Daniel 9:25, spells out the Tribulation and the Rapture after Isreal becomes a nation.

    1948 may 14th Israel become a nation.

    then you have 62 years, which gets 2010, then 7 year tribulation...

    The answer is in the bible friends!

  • no i am sorry but you are wrong you dont know the time the year not even the decade the answer is not in the bible because god says no one knows the time the end will happen only god knows not even jesus knows the time so i am sorry but you are way of my brother

  • We have a new date for the Rapture: May 21, 2011 according to Christian family radio. That means a significant number of us will miss seeing the end time fantasy film called 2012. I don't mean to

    be snide, because I do think prophesied events will occur. I don't know how people derive the timetable.

  • The Bible says "Only the Father Knows". So how do you know?

  • there is no date for the Rapture only god knows the time of it

  • no one knows the time it will happen god says he only knows the time im sorry may 21 2011 is not the end or the begining the rapture will not happen until the many persacutions of christians

  • Don't let ANYONE take away your hope of this happening ; )

  • ALELUYA

  • Comment removed

  • Blessed [are] those who have not seen and [yet] have believed." (John 20:29)

  • MOST Churches ARE NOT teaching this Rapture, THEREFORE one CAN guess the outcome. People are unprepaired, THEREFORE Christ WILL show up if like by storm. He will not find favor on earth, and its looking that way today. Judgement will actually start with the church(his own).

  • *** 2010 ***

    see "2010" on my channel

    Get Ready

  • It is not too late my brothers and sisters!!! Repent and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior before it's too late!

  • I believe that Jesus will coming here soon

  • 2*20*2010 - 2*21*2010 - Get ready

    Disappearances & 911 on a world scale

  • Wanna hear "THE RAPTURE SONG?" click my screen name : )

  • Amen! Jesus is coming

  • Acts 2;38 is still God's plan of salvation. Do it like they did on the day of Pentecost and u can't go wrong. be filled with his spirit like they did, and u should be able to see that the church will not go through the tribulation. it's not a matter of being scared. The church has to be taken out so god can again deal with the nation of Israel. 70 weeks were determined upon them. They still have one more week to fulfill. 7 years. Study the different, Israel and the church.

  • Praise the lord .Very few Christians read acts and im happy to see that you have because many skip acts and go to Romans 10:9

    That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. and it states in romans 1:7 "To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints..." so unless you have been filled with his spirit romans 10 :9 is pointless.

  • There is no Biblical support for any of what you mention. All 70 of the weeks have been fulfilled. If you read carefully in Daniel 9 it says after the 69 weeks Messiah would be cut off. Not during not before but after. So Jesus was crucified (cut off -Isaiah 53) during the 70th week. I could mention much more, but not enough room here.

    God bless

  • Jesus is coming!

  • "comment pending approval."

    preciate it grand inquisitor.

  • That is why the road to heaven is very narrow!!!! I agree with you I didnt believe it untill I found the truth with my own mind and heart. Today I believe. The same story with Noah and the flood. The second coming is near from Prophecy. Search the truth before it is too late. Because what if you are wrong? Searching you have nothing to lose?

  • Don't place your eternal soul on man. He will disappoint you every time. Jesus is the only standard you will follow. He is perfect.

    Trust in him.

    Heaven and Hell is eternal. Hell is a place of outer darkness and torment 24/7 for eternity.

    You cannot go to Hell for a week and see if you like it, there are no exit signs, when you are there you are there. Total separation from God. A place for Satan and his fallen demons.

  • "Total separation from God."

    And, here I thought you guys claimed that God was Omnipresent...

  • JESUS IS COMING BACK PEOPLE GET READY!

  • So you leave your jewellery behind but not your clothes? Interesting. Should be quite a haul for an alert thief. Wedding rings raining down, earrings and necklaces just dropping for the taking. But why, hmm?

  • The thief can't eat the rings. Gold and silver will be thrown in the streets because they can't buy food. It will be all out war for food and water.

    It will be literally HELL ON EARTH !

  • I clearly understand your argument. Please allow me the opportunity to attempt to shed a little light on this subject. Somtimes a third party can help clear things up a bit. The Biblical "Rapture" serves several of God's purposes all at once. Yes. Hundreds of thousands of Drivers, Doctors, Nurses, Etc. Will be taken away instantly. Yes. This WILL cause Great-Chaos. That IS specifically what the Bible says. And so will begin the MOST frightening Era of God unleashing HIS wrath against...........

  • oh my goodness. that is intense.

  • PS: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Rev. 22:19

  • Why waist time on ignorance Stef. Majority brainwashed into believing this fairy tale are teenagers who learn from Sunday school cause they can't read & learn 4 them selves. Sad thing is No where in the Bible does it "Specifically" say the word Rapture or that All Christians vanish into thin air while Non-Christians are left behind like these videos portray. They just take a couple of vague scriptures that gives the notion of death but don't mention it & use it 4 their make believe event.

  • It never occurred to me that perhaps there isn't anything specific about "vanishing" in the Scriptures. It's funny, I'm a total skeptic, yet I never thought to find actual scripture to back up the whole "Rapture" theory.

    Thanks for the heads-up.

    As for the "wasting time," thing, I agree that it's ridiculous, but I'm trying to write a book on Atheism from within the believer's mindset. Crazy as it sounds, years ago I used to be a Christian.

    Luckily, my mind finally rejected the programming!

  • I am a strong believer in God, but lets take on ur mindset and say what if God is real (a question to all unbelievers) would you go to heaven or hell? I challenge you try Jesus one more time....I challenge you to pray to God in Jesus name I challenge you if you really don't believe in God then you have nothing to lose by simply trying Him for your self Try Him HE IS SO REAL....I'm praying for you

  • Good video :)

  • Quote "What about Christian airline pilots? Won't they be leaving their passengers to die a terrifying and agonizing death?" I ain't gonna even try to discuss this comment, of course for anyone who doesn't believe the bible, yes the though of us vanishing is stupid, as i said believe it or not, just don't go off making the same mistake as a lot of people have made before you, ranting and arguing especially on the internet, on a christian video if God is a joke or not, live your life, and stop!

  • This video is sad and scary at the same time because yea, there's going to come a day when this will happen, and I think it's going to be coming very very soon now. That little old man who just witnessed his wife being took away shook me most.

    Whoever made this video, good job!

  • SAD AND SCARY !?!? MAYBE you NEED to do some SERIOUS Soul-searching with a quickness! IF YOU are a SAVED person, Rom 10 vs 9. Then YOU should be OVERJOYED when this Miraculous event occurs!!!!

  • u mean Jesus isnt real????? Then wait for His coming, and you will be judged!!!!! Repent while there is still time!!!

  • Haven't anyone notice every time an atheist or someone who just don't believe Jesus/God exists comes to a christian video about the rapture or any other material, comes prepare with a list of irrelevant or should i say stupid "facts" to come question whether God trully exists or not.

    Sir Believe or not believe if you want to, the fact remains, we aren't here out of luck without a purpose in life, stay home, rant all you like, when the time comes what will you do, if we are right.

  • This video gives me chills!

  • God will return soon, he will judge the world and his people will be brought out of the time of testing. It is his will through out all time what is to come soon.... rapture of his choosen people is blessing and god cut short the time of testing so people can survive. You all will go to heaven and god will bring peace to hole world. just wait and see!

  • Amen, brother!

  • What about Christian airline pilots? Won't they be leaving their passengers to die a terrifying and agonizing death?

    And won't the Rapture be kind of a bummer because they left their passengers to die?

    Wouldn't the "Christian" thing to do be for all Christians who operate heavy machinery to quit their jobs so that during the Rapture no one is unnecessarily harmed?

    Any thoughts out there? Is this already being done? Is there already a movement underway? Or don't you guys care? Thoughts?

  • You hafe to be WATCHING for the rapture. You will miss out on a crown to lay at the feet of Jesus, IF you DO NOT WATCH and LONG for his rapture. It is RARE today for people to be watching for his return. Therefore one can guess the outcome....???

  • that is what advent is all about trisand ...and the readings we hear in the liturgy of His Church all point to looking for Him... not only to celebrate His first coming, but also to wait in joyful hope for the Coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ

  • We can't have the rapture until I say it's time dadgummit.

    Now get back to your daily doings and leave the heavy liftring to us experts.

    Carry on.

  • Do we get naked before the big lift? Or should we have clean undies on?

    Don't want to go shaking hands with the big guy and have a streak down the back of the whitey tighties.

    Not a good first impression on the chief, and who knows he might have a suporvisory position waiting for me up there..........though i refuse to work with Jerry Fallwell, he was a prick on earth, I can't imagine his ego when he's with management.

  • we are living in the end times!

    One of the ways to prove it is by the last 4 presidents of the USA.

    they all have been preaching there "PEACE AND SECURITY" plans to the people of the world for some time now. and what does the Bible say about this plan?

    For you yourselves know that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they say, "PEACE AND SAFETY!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a woman with child. And they shall not escape. 1Thess 5:2,3

  • So, your evidence for the Second Coming is that the last four presidents have been preaching their "peace and security" plans?

    Wow. You got me. You're absolutely right. That's absolute proof. The pattern is clear; every president prior to the last four were completely successful with their political campaigns of "Instability, Terror and Havoc!"

    Well, I'm convinced. Must be the end times!

  • Stef - I said that that is ONE of the ways to prove it. I didn't say that that is MY evidence.

    Do you think is a coinquidink that the Bible mentions those same words?

    I don't think so!

    that is something beyond human ability for mere words so exact to be foretold nearly 2000 years ago.

  • I hate to burst your spiritual bubble, but If the grandmother's ring was left behind, wouldn't the rest of her clothes? Or is it theologically accurate to posit that clothes magically go to heaven but not rings?

    Another example of shameless manipulation that is actually trying to serve as a substitute for content.

    "Hey, here's an idea! Why don't we film a fantasy about the Rapture! And everyone will feel "inspired"!

    Christians do cartwheels for a swelling soundtrack and an emotional contrivance.

  • It's possible that her clothes just fell into the seat. Stop over analyzing things.

  • It's a movie. There are no clothes that possibly just fell into the seat. Because...it's a movie. You're even worse than I suspected.

    Stop underanalyzing things.

  • you keep telling yourself that. :P

  • Buddy, it's been two thousand years. Twenty Centuries. Even the disciples thought Jesus was coming back in their lifetime.

    If anybody's "telling themselves something," it's you.

  • Oh, and one more thing;

    Clothes are optional, but apparently there are no backpacks in heaven.

  • Maranatha!

  • Lord jesus will return when father tells him and angels to bring all the billions of people to heaven. Glory to hole world for god will get all billions of people to himself and lead them to new future. Heaven on earth, earth will become the new heaven and god will live with the people forever. Universe will become one like it should be.

  • Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

    Mark 13:3031

    13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

    13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Explain that away!!

  • Comment removed

  • Okay, I will explain that away,

    When Jesus said those things he was talking to his disciples, yet not one of them saw the kingdom of God come with power. And last time I checked, the Second Coming still hasn't happened.

    There. Consider it "explained away".

  • racism needs to end

    tv needs to end

    pick up a bible

  • "I object to the elitist attitude Pre-tribbers have always maintained about this subject and now that it's proven to be wrong,"

    Eh? What is proven wrong? I'm presuming you were replying to me, but you didn't send it directly to my inbox.

  • You will never deal or acknowledge that Jesus himself said that he will rapture us AFTER great tribulation. You can deny, you can spin, use any type of replacement theology you wish to make yourself feel better about what is about to happen. Paul says that He will come FIRST and then He gatherers us SECONED. 2 Thess 2:1

  • Matthew 24: 9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." People love to believe the rapture, so they won't have to endure strife & pain. FALSE!

  • Read Revelations Chapter 7 and you will see that the faithful Christians will have to endure the time of the end and will come out of the great tribulation. This rapture nonsense is to tickle the ears of those who listen to what they want to hear and so you will continue to go to their churches of false doctrines and give them money. Read your Bible rather than listen to words of men who are for their own self gain.

  • It is impossible for the great tribulation in the passage to be referring to the tribulation period. The reason for this is the number that no man could number. Todays population is around 6 billion people, and since the church is to be a small remnant of those people, it is therefore impossible to get a number that no man could number out of the tribulation period.

  • It is impossible for the great tribulation in the passage to be referring to the tribulation period. The reason for this is the number that no man could number. Todays population is around 6 billion people, and since the church is to be a small remnant of those people, it is therefore impossible to get a number that no man could number out of the tribulation period.

  • Such a numberless multitude who come out of great tribulation mentioned in the Revelation 7 passage must therefore have reference to those overcoming saints that come out of great tribulation experience by all believers throughout the 20 centuries of church history.

  • I have heard that all my life in the pre-trib camp and now that the logic is clearly erroneous. They now recognize the ludicrous nature of this claim and now have decided to though it out. The fact that YOU replied with the quote of only Christian's childen being raptured, shows that you knew of this heritical docterne. This is just another millstone around the pre-trib neck.

  • Kyoshiko - Was that last comment in reply to me? (it'd be helpful if you could send directly to myself if you are indeed replying to me).

  • You say, "I have heard that all my life in the pre-trib camp," but are you talking about laymen or scholars?. If you read works by top pre-tribbers like Stanton, Walvoord and Showers, you won't find any comments about kids being raptured (LaHaye was writing a novel so obviously he had to take a position on it), so laymen making these argument is irrelevant.

  • You also replied by talking about me saying that only kids with Christian parents would be raptured, but I was NOT saying this is what I personally believe (if you thought that). I was saying that some pre-tribbers on the net argue such a thing, and the only reason I said it was because you had originally wrote something about it being unfair if some kids were raptured whilst others were left. I assumed from your comment that this is the doctrine you're comment was referring to.

  • Lastly, the whole "kids being raptured" thing generally comes down to whether one believes in infant salvation or not. The Bible doesn't - apart possibly from one verse dealing with King David's baby son - comment on whether infants are saved, but if one accepts they are saved, you generally will also argue that kids will be spared by the rapture too. Of course, one belief doesn't necessarily lead to the other, but they usually go hand in hand. I can only think you object to kids being(cont)....

  • part2..... raptured because you also object to infant salvation. Is that right?

  • I only wish there was such a thing as a Rapture. Imagine all the Christians just vamishing from the face of the Earth? Wonderful.

    All we need then is for a special Muslim and Jew Rapture.

  • When the rapture happens... that will eventually mark the beggining of the end... soooo... dont think ull be that happy when it does

  • If there ever was a historical Jesus (and we have no extra-biblical proof there was), he won't be coming back.

    You'll die like the millions that have waited in vain for his return. It's been 2000 years and it still hasn't happened.

    That's the problem with believing in myths. You'll always be disappointed in the end.

  • "If there ever was a historical Jesus (and we have no extra-biblical proof there was),"

    Tell that to the secular historians out there :). How many present-day historians can you name who reject the idea that there was an historical Jesus? This idea that He didn't exist is promoted by ignorant laymen on the net - historians simply do not give these people the time of day. Now, there are many bright sceptics out there, but sceptics who wish to promote this sort of nonsense do them a disservice.

  • There is no historically reliable evidence for Jesus outside of the Bible, which is my point. Therefore it is not unreasonable to say 'If'.

    Those secular historians who think that there probably was a man called Jesus draw a sharp distinction between that figure and the semi-mythologized character of the Gospels.

    They certainly don't put any weight upon those words credited to him actually coming to pass one day.

    That is left to the credulous, or as you like to call yourselves, the faithful.

  • "Therefore it is not unreasonable to say 'If'."

    Why is it then that professional secular historians find it very unreasonable and have no time for the argument that Jesus' existence is somehow not proved sufficiently?.

    Personally, I think a lot of net sceptics who use this argument don't really believe it deep down, but, rather, I think it is simply that they want another tool to beat Christians over the head with - whether that's true in your case I don't know.

  • "Those secular historians who think that there probably was a man called Jesus draw a sharp distinction between that figure and the semi-mythologized character of the Gospels."

    Of course, but you're shifting the goalposts. They clearly don't accept He did miracles, but what you were originally talking about is this idea that the historical Jesus probably didn't exist because, supposedly (historians disagree), there is no extra-biblical evidence for Him Different issues totally.

  • Don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say 'probably didn't exist', I said "If he existed".

    There is no reliable contemporary account of his existence, but on balance there probably was a man called Jesus who had followers. That is 'not' 100% historically certain however.

    As I find the idea of gods incoherent, I certainly don't believe in his divinity, 'if' he did exist.

  • "I said "If he existed".

    I apologise if I misunderstood you, but generally when some says "if" so-and-so existed they usually are trying to cast some sort of doubt on it and imply that He may not have lived or probably didn't, so that's why I said it. Maybe my use of "probably" was an error.

  • "There is no reliable contemporary account of his existence"

    Not a problem for historians. This idea that you have to have contemporary evidence (note this is dfferent from merely asking for extra-biblical evidences which was your original point) to 100% prove an historical personages existence is simply an invented rule that historians simply do not work by.

  • The Gospels aren't contemporary as they were written decades after Jesus's death.

    If any writings during the lifetime of Jesus independently corroborated his existence then it would be strong evidence.

    Even if the early Christians hadn't monkeyed about with his writings, Josephus would only count as recording hearsay as he was born in 37 CE.

    When it's written that the dead rose from their graves and walked it is understandable when some ask how much is a fabrication.

  • On contemporary evidence, simply see my last answer where I note that historians simply do not follow this invented rule about needing contemporary evidence to prove a characters existence.

  • All rules are invented.

    I'm saying that contemporary evidence makes for a stronger case. Not that it is always needed.

  • "All rules are invented."

    What I mean is that it is not a rule or method pro-historians use and it was simply invented ad-hoc by non-expert proponents of the idea that Jesus never existed in order to bolster their laughable case. Yes, contemporary evidence would be better but historians don't need it in order to be certain about things in the past.

  • All historical narratives are reconstructions and even with contemporary evidence I'd hesitate to use the word certain.

    The philosophy of history is still evolving and is not monolithic.

    Where do you get the idea that this rule is ad-hoc?

    Point me to where you found it, because as an admitted non-historian I'd like to know.

  • I guess you could say all fields of study are evolving/changing, but I think it's a lot to hang your hat on to say that if we wait long enough all historians may do an about-turn and say that we now need contemporary evidence to prove so-and-so existed for certain (especially in the case of Jesus since there is so much other evidence from Josephus, Tacitus, etc). As JP Holding notes, "This (type of) objection would cause us to trash a great deal of ancient history. As Harris points out (cont)...

  • part2(cont)...., our best references to the Emperor Tiberius (14-37 AD) come from historians who lived much later than he did (Tacitus, c. 115 AD; Suetonius, c. 120 AD; Dio Cassius, 230 AD), so this is hardly reason to dismiss (for example) Josephus' testimony concerning Jesus" (w w w . tektonics . o r g/jesusexist/josephus . h t m l #late)

  • J.P. Holding only has a degree in library science so can't be considered a historian and as a Christian apologist is biased.

    Have you got a reputable historian to point to regarding your claim of this ad-hoc rule?

  • Holding was quoting Harris whom I'd presume is an historian, & his point about Tiberius is pertinent.

    In regard to "pointing to an reputable historian," again read my previous comments. No present-day historian - doubts Jesus' existence nor brings up this rule about contemporary evidence, which shows it is simply not something that bothers them and that it is not a "rule" they apply.

  • I was just doing a little search and found this link over at