Andras Schiff on Beethoven Op 111

[kimwooseuk]

He says full only legato ok??????

[kimwooseuk]

Bbot mangi i dontthinks so ........this us not jazz andrasschiff say beethoven aiund is nit boogi woogi

[photo1225]

Probing analysis by a legendary virtuoso and educator

[bayreuth79]

"Ecstasy yes, boogie woogie, no". Totally agree!

[bayreuth79]

I just love the frenetic ecstasy of 2:33 onwards! Beethoven had the greatest musical imagination of them all, even if I still think Mozart was supreme.

[kevinmaestroful]

Listesso Tempo People!!,..Nicee

[sunpowernatural]

Beethoven was so advanced in his musical thinking he revolutionized music twice: his heroic period (3nd & 5th Symphonies, Pathetique sonata, middle quartets) and his transcendental period (late piano sonatas and quartets, 9th Symphony, Missa Solemnis). I disagree with Schiff, I think Beethoven, now deaf, was uncovering musical possibilities so advanced of his musical age that he uncovered ragtime in op. 111.

[lesliefoy49]

én bojkottálom a müvész urat és mindenkit erre hívok fel,ha más dolgom nem lenne lehetetlenné is tenném,jobb,ha jó ideig nem jön haza,amig elfelejtik neki ezt a ballépését

[kevinmaestroful]

most modest pianist ever!..a true intelect who puts the music before everything else, his hands are the most relaxed i have ever seen on a keyboard..musical perfection!

[mackbox123]

However, he plays more like a boogie woogie than other pianists

[Mralibabarooibakkie]

thank heavens he did something with his hair...

[eagleseye12]

@Mralibabarooibakkie Don't worry, it doesn't look like he'll have to worry about it much longer !

[Mralibabarooibakkie]

I'm so glad he did something with his hair...

[Borcsiii]

mit játszik? ez komolyan beethoven? durva :O

[nevikat]

ahhoz nincs joga, hogy nemzetét gyalázza igaztalan és hazug vádakkal, felhasználva erre ismertségét és művész presztizsét! Én nem vagyok nagynevű zongoraművész, csak egy átlagos magyar költő és publicista. Az Ön művészi nagyságához nem érek fel, de egyszer s mindenkorra kikérem a magam és a nagyobbik nemzetrész nevében ezt a felelőtlen mocskolódást! (Forrás: Népszabadság, 2011. január 3., kedd, 3 oldal.) Minden tisztelet nélkül: Szabó László Dezső ÉN: EZ NEM IS MŰVÉSZ AZ ÉN SZEMEMBEN!

[nevikat]

, sem az emberek gondolkodásában! A természetes nemzettudat pedig szükséges, és ez minden nációsajátja. Nos Művész Úr! Ahelyett, hogy hazáját besározó, hazug olvasói leveleket írogatna, jobb lenne, ha maradna a zongoránál, és kivételes tehetségével, játékával öregbítené a magyar zenekultúrát. Miért nem írt olvasói levelet például 2006. október 23-án történtekkel kapcsolatban a világsajtó képviselőinek? Tévedés ne essék, Önnek joga van véleményét megfogalmazni,közzétenni, de

[nevikat]

és ahol a Hanuka alkalmából minden további nélkül a köztereken megjelennek a

menórák?

Hogyan van az, a toleranciával, a cigánykérdéssel, amikor a katolikus egyház

évek óta cigány-pasztorációt folytat több egyházmegyében - sikerrel?

Mi az, hogy "reakciós nacionalizmus"?

Ön bizonyosan egy közel-keleti országra gondolt, ahol deklaráltan van faji

és vallási megkülönböztetés a saját állampolgárokközött?

Magyarországon szerencsére ilyen nincs sem törvénybe foglalva,

[nevikat]

társadalom állapotával kapcsolatban, de úgy tűnik, hogy olyan jelenségeket állít be a magyar társadalom általános ismérveiként, melyek enyhén szólva nem fedik a valóságot, melyek így egyszerűen nem igazak. Olyan kifejezést is használ, amely a kommunizmus terminológiáját idézi:"reakciós nacionalizmus". Kedves Schiff András művész úr! Hogyan van az, hogy Magyarországon antiszemitizmus dúl, amikor itt él és virul Európa egyik legnagyobb létszámú zsidó közössége,

[nevikat]

Nyílt levél Schiff András művész úrnak.

Művész Úr!

A The Washington Post-ban megjelent olvasói levelében súlyos kijelentéseket

tesz Magyarországról,

"a toleranciaszint szélsőségesen alacsony. Rasszizmus, a romák hátrányos

megkülönböztetése, antiszemitizmus és reakciós nacionalizmus" kísért.

Nem tudom, hogy Ön milyen tapasztalatokkal rendelkezik a mai magyar



[Franky7413]

hontalan spicli

[maestrokevable]

spiritual and musical perfection!...''the boogie-woogie'',..excellent words of wisdom from one of the very few that can do Beethoven justice!..go Schiff!

[ezsoezso]

"Schiff András (Budapest, 1953. december 21. – ) magyar származású brit zongoraművész. 1979-ben emigrált Nagy-Britanniába, 2001 óta brit állampolgár. Yūko Shiokawa hegedűművész férje."

Utálom a fideszt, de az ilyen férgeket megvetem. Elment az országból! Milyen jogon spicliskedik amerikában? Véleménye lehet, sőt legyen is, de tartsa meg magának! Magyarországon persona non grata az ilyen "ember"!

[sallajo]

A Washington Postban tett nyilatkozata elfogadhatatlan!

Lehet mérges valaki a hazájára személyes okokból de akár bizonyos történelmi helyzetek miatt is. De egy országról beszélünk, abban rengeteg különböző emberrel, akik ottmaradtak és küzdenek azért, hogy ott jobb legyen a saját életük, ne adj isten a közös jövőjük.

Ezzel a nyilatkozattal egy ilyen ostoba, képmutató és korlátok nélküli világpolitikai helyzetben milliók életét és küzdelmét teszi még nehezebbé.

Ez a felelősség és értelem hiánya!

[JanosSimon]

@sallajo

Schiff Andra's nem a haza'ja'ra me'rges, hanem a gazemberkre akik becstelenitik Magyarorsza'got.

A muveszek felosse'ge kia'llni a nemes elveke'rt. Mint hetven e've Barto'k, Schiff a valo'di Magyarorsza'got szo'litotta meg.

[traktorosparaszt]

ez egy muzsikus! nem zongorista, nem zenész és nem is magyar! aki ilyeneket mer írni a hazájáról, az egy senki! hazátlan pária!

próbálná meg ezt israelben. beszari kis senkiházi!

[Okinawa755]

Erre az arcra símán adnék 170 évet nehéz vasban Kufsteinban, kenyéren és vízen.

Forog a gyomrom ettõl a megélhetési rinyazsidótól,

[bertalangergely1987]

@Okinawa755

Akkor ne olvasd el a mai cikkét a Washington Postból, mert még rosszabbul leszel.

Csak ízelítőül: "firtatja a zongoraművész azt, hogy vajon Magyarország kész-e és méltó-e arra, hogy átvegye a közösség elnökségét".

Igaz, véleményt bárki mondhat, de nehogy már az határozza meg Magyarország politikáját, hogy mit mond egy zongorista, csak azért, mert zsidó. És lehet, h tényleg nem méltó Magyarország erre a címre, de akkor sem a rossz hírünket kellene terjeszteni a világban.

[tremendousOt]

The Amazing Jazz Genius, Art Tatum, also disliked Boogie Woogie, which has more to do with a kind of funky rag-time barrel house rocknroll style of pianism, than anything to do with Swing, Gospel, Shout, Blues, and Jazz, and little indeed to do with Beethoven.

[susumu07]

If Beethoven did live long enough to "invent jazz" it would be very different from what we know today as jazz. Anyway that segment is much more like 'imperial age" ragtime than modern jazz. If you don't like the comparison invent a better one.

In any case Jazz is not one type of music, it's got hundreds of different variants. I doubt Beethoven would have liked things like be-bop or swing jazz, but early ragtime which actually borrowed a lot from classical, and Gershwin style are more likely.

[susumu07]

This was one of Beethoven's last sonatas? It LOOKS like he was well on the way to inventing Jazz, but a jazz that's unlike anything we have today! If he's lived a few years longer, he probably would have invented a jazz that makes today's Jazz look insignificant and empty by comparison... Modern music would have never been the same.

Actually it's a bit more like ragtime than Jazz. Beethoven himself said to his harsher critics: "this music is not meant for you, but for a later age".

[Grondorn]

@susumu07 You are talking utter nonscence, Beethoven lived 6 more years after he completed this sonata, and he didn't compose anything remotely close to jazz. The problem is that many of you take this variation out of context, and then you think off jazz, but in context with the whole movement this variation is far from jazz as she can get. The fact is Beethoven would have never invented jazz, and He would have despise jazz, like all other composers who lived before him.

[sanjosemike]

The last movement of Op 111 has confused modern ears, in a sense as much as it did the ears BEFORE jazz. It's not as though syncopation didn't exist in the musical past. Of course it did.

The music is sublime. And of course it is Beethoven. But Beethoven in a way we have never heard before. There is the natural desire to "connect" this last movement with jazz. Schiff is right of course. It is NOT jazz.

But it does "swing." You can see that in the way even Schiff plays it. sanjosemike

[anonymousQ45]

look at those cool drapes!

[maxreger100]

He practices what he preaches!

And his Fortissimos are NEVER pounded out.

[callenishss]

i dont like this guys technique, it leans toward finger technique!!!!! should use only arm-dropping technique to the max

[Haeronthegreat]

@callenishss Yet he is one of the most influential interpreters of modern times and an astonishingly virtuosic player. You have no right criticising his technique - technique is a means to an end, and as long as it works for him and does not hurt him, it is fine.

[callenishss]

@Haeronthegreat i criticize as I wish, and I may do so based on physics mechanics alone. i will forgo explaining.

[hermanshermits124124]

@callenishss hahaha moron

[zetetic666]

my friend and I were discussing this piece tonight. I admit, I understand very little about the technicalities of music; however, I think Schiff's notion is problematic: that the 'jazz' we hear is an issue of development not jazz: Beethoven is sublime, not jazz which is '...'. He doesn't say.  'A love supreme' is sublime, developmental and jazz. Rather, Beethoven has encountered, in this piece, what is sublime about jazz in romantic music. No contradiction.

[beet31425]

Walvirck--

My own 2 cents, FWIW: I'm a jazz pianist who's also revered and worked up this Beethoven, and I completely agree with Schiff on the "boogie-woogie" nature of the third variation. I've always thought that its similarity to jazz is a misleading coincidence, and obscures the true nature of the variation, which is pure frantic godlike ecstasy.

And I say this not because I reject jazz in any way! So this might not be evidence of Schiff disrespecting the wonderful art-form of jazz.

[wnxg4nd4lf]

Very well said

[chopinandliszt]

by the way, Mozart Clarinet Quintet 1st movement really sounds like jazz, in my opinion.

[bboymango]

@beet31425 hmm obviously beethoven did not have some great vission of the future and wrote what sounds like a foreshadow of jazz. however, wasn't jazz just a natural expression that americans had back before it was notated. Didn't jazz come from the soul? i mean sure the swung eights and rythem is a distict notifier of jazz, but what beethoven wrote was wat he felt and like shiff says, "we jsut hear the human spirit"

buut jsut my opinion.

[Walvirck]

I love the way he sounds, and will continue listening to his works, but I hate his ideas, specially when he talked about the Boogie Woogie like all the ignorants classical musicians who can't accept Jazz. Those are not complete musicians as they only see one side... shame of him. I love Bach more than anyother, I love Beethoven and Schubert, but I also love Fats Waller and Willie the Lion Smith, Duke Ellington.... Nobody is more just because his gigs are in Theaters wearing a suit..

[guntherlove54]

right or wrong about schiff's distaste for jazz, there are plenty of professional classical musicians who will come home from their concerts (no names will be provided, but they are friends of mine in the new york phil and chicago symphony) who absolutely love jazz as much as classical and use it to assist their technique/musicality in their classical playing(and vice versa.) Some have been on jazz albums. Even if schiff does not like jazz, he's free to choose what styles he likes, like anyone.

[anonymusum]

@ Walvirck

On one side you´re right. BUT meeting jazz musicians you will find similar ignorance against classical musicians. And in the end - to be very honest - of course there is a big difference in content between classical and jazz music.

[lovethepiano]

I want those curtains.

[davus0]

i agree with the critics. a good teacher will teach you to read music for yourself not just share - fine though it may be - a private interpretation or close-reading of the score. liszt and anton rubinstein were both notably aphoristic piano instructors. anyone can gather stray insights into a piece - that comes with mere experience. education is an art of its own and requires a great deal of judiciousness in how and when you share what you know.

[davus0]

eh, i changed my mind. he is pointing out elements of the piece, not trying to say how to play the piano.

i am too bad of a student to learn =.

[Haeronthegreat]

All Schiff generally does is give deeper insight on what the music itself says, which generally informs his interpretations. He is very much reverent of the texts, as we should (in Beethoven at least) all be.

[themarsipan]

@Haeronthegreat I think he often gives his own personal view of the music, which is just what he sees in it, and not necessarily a deeper layer of meaning put there by the composer itself. It is more like imagery that can be useful as guide for a particular form of interpretation.

[cafesoluble]

what the hell are u saying.

[eliotswann]

I agree that the exchanging of points of view is positive in a student-treacher relation. A workshop as someone said here before, but that is different than play for the student, like telling him what is good and what is bad. He has to decide this on his own and the teacher's work is to give him the criteria to do this. OK, this is far too strict, and perhaps a midle point is more resonable. Barenboim's method is perhaps a good example of this midle point. (excuse my deficient english)

[mcdiddy1]

I agree with you that information shouldn't be spoonfed interpration but to that I remeber receiving a lot of information from teachers about Beethoven and some stuff sticks but most don't but the benefit is it started me thinking or ideas and many times i could apply these to other pieces...I think it depends on the maturity of student to decide if he will be a carbon copy of his teacher or an individual because i know for fact that i dont play like my teachers and i wasnt harmed by his advice

[sanjosemike]

BEETHOVEN IN A WORLD OF HIS OWN

We all know that by the time this Sonata was written, Beethoven was pretty much into his own world. He was almost completely deaf and had miserable health problems.

Schiff has a right to express his opinion of course and we have a right to listen or to not..or to pay or not. In any case Schiff plays this beautifully so he has a right to his opinion.

In a very sad sense Beethoven's suffering was also our reward.

sanjosemike

[eliotswann]

If Arrau could see that... I think this sonata is too personal to be teached. Any other one, but not this one please. You can't not pretend to teach anybody how to play this sonata, it goes against the spirit of the music. Even exert any kind of influence from an elevated position I think is very harmful. I like his playing, but that's not the point. I think that the most absolut respect for the freedom of the student is the most important remark to make to any teacher of music.

[hinatachansama]

good comment. all pieces from beethoven or any real composer are personal. its really difficult to teach something beyond the technical difficulties. (sorry googletranslation)

[twiltot]

yeah you're absolutely right. I mean you should live and get the spirit yourself to play it nicely. it's not a simple work that anybody can get...

[arturon111]

I disagree with you, i was very fortunate to have study with the great Arrau, and he was a fantastic unparalleled teacher, very practical, he used to say, this is WORKSHOP, and would explain from the technical point of view of how to do something, to the sublime, such as a story, or anecdote or some personal opinion of the piece; and as he was a walking encyclopedia about everything, he was a very intellignet and wise man, one always came out from a lesson uplifted and motivated to improve !!!!

[mcdiddy1]

Kind of confused by that statement...music teaching and playing music go hand in hand...when we perform we teach the audience about what the composer had in mind, how we feel about the music, why not put how we feel about it to words? Creating an interpretation is an important part of the music making process. Afterall its up to the performer to used it or create his own interpretation or use the teachers. I don't see how his playing with suffer from listening to someone who has so much knowleg

[eliotswann]

Well, is not the same to talk about a piece than play it for the students. If a teacher plays a piece for the students their natural reaction would be to imitate the teacher's playing, and this is what I think should be avoided, specially in a piece like this. I think it goes against the nature of the "true" music teaching. Teachers must help the students to make their own way. The worst thing that a music teacher can do is to expect his tudents to imitate him, to follow his steps. Too selfish.

[kempff95]

damn.............he is very good....

[AndrewHMeador]

Great pianist, but he's pretty full of it, I must say.

[winternight119]

Full of himself, you mean?

[AndrewHMeador]

Full of "it" means full of shit.

[cabdrivinghog]

Well that's his own interpretation...it's not like the students aren't allowed to disagree. But in order to teach you cannot be objective about something as abstract like music. He tells them what he thinks, then shows them afterwards...and they are allowed to disagree. He's neither absolutely rigth or wrong. There's no absolute thruth. But he is a man with great knowledge on Beethoven...and he's an amazing pianist!

[AndrewHMeador]

I actually did catch a bit of the "Alle menschen werden Brüder". Listen to 1:27-1:32. By "iambic" he just means short-long-short-long, da-dah-da-dah.

[wol4fram]

"that doesn't mean that everyone has to blindly believe what he says without reflecting on it." : I agree completely.

"What you are talking about are not opinions, but facts." : Nope. I'm saying that if a particular variation reminds Andras Schiff of Beethoven's 9th, then, given his status (and role. He's teaching a Master Class), he has every right to make that connection without backing it up, and it may serve as insight to others, or it may not.

[wol4fram]

Regarding Beethoven's 9th, I interpret Schiff as speaking about an emotional, stylistic, or even philosophical quality in the music.

Regarding the word "iambic," you are entirely correct, but come across as a jerk because of how you make your point. Schiff made a mistake. Oops. Doesn't invalidate his point or make him a shallow/stupid/etc. human being.

[wol4fram]

"so I'm merely reflecting on the things he says and pointing out that they don't make sense to me."

You don't come across that way. When I read your posts, I don't see "I disagree. I think that it's this way."

Instead, I see, "Schiff is wrong. Schiff is stupid. This video is pointless. I am belittling Schiff."

It's how you frame your comments.

[Schamschi]

Lo and behold, everybody seems to give me the Thumbs Down, but no one can correct me objectively in my equally objective arguments and explain to me where I am wrong... So much for "criticize without giving the subjects some deeper thoughts"...

[wol4fram]

The thing is, Andras Schiff has reached a level of artistry, fame and respect such that he *doesn't* have to back up his opinions. The very fact that *he* thinks that particular variation is similar to "Alle Menschen werden Brueder" justifies him stating so.

You are more than welcome to disagree with his opinions and thoughts, but you are sneaking in ad hominem attacks, which is what most people find distasteful, I think.

[Schamschi]

First: Being famous and respected doesn't make everything one says apodictic and unconditionally true. Schiff may, being an experienced pianist and musician, have given the things he talks about more thought than someone else might have, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to blindly believe what he says without reflecting on it.

Second: What you are talking about are not opinions, but facts. (continued...)

[Schamschi]

(...continued) That the phrase "alle Menschen werden Brüder" NEVER occurs in the 9th symphony in the particular rhythm that Andras Schiff has sung it in is an indisputable fact, making Schiff's comparison plainly senseless, because it is simply NOT like "alle Menschen werden Brüder" in the 9th symphony (again, correct me if I'm wrong). And the meaning of the word "iambic" isn't a matter of opinion either. And it's precisely these things that I'm criticizing, (continued...)

[diehuts]

I think you misunderstand him: He says, that the rhythm in which the notes are played is the same as "Alle Menschen werden Brüder" (which occures in the Ninth Symphony) when it's spoken. He doesn't say, that it's that rhythm in the Ninth. He just says: "Alle Menschen werden Brüder"...in the Ninth Symphony. (His English is not very good. Maybe he wanted to say "a line,which also appears in the Ninth Sy."). I think he knows the Ninth Symphony pretty good.

[Schamschi]

(...continued) so I'm merely reflecting on the things he says and pointing out that they don't make sense to me. And that people give me the thumbs down, even on the comments that contain purely objective reasoning, is a sign that they themselves don't understand these things but are too stupid to say anything, because, surely, what the great Schiff says must be correct, and to question it can only be foolishness to the point of arrogance? Or why else can no one explain to me where I am wrong?

[Schamschi]

And now, come to think of it, what does the 2nd variation have in common with "alle Menschen werden Brüder" from the 9th symphony??? I'm now seriously wondering if he has any idea of what he's talking about.

[galapz]

This is very introspective. Thank you.

[Schamschi]

Btw, I'm not even sure Mr. Schiff knows what he's talking about when he describes the first variation as "iambic" (apart from pronouncing it wrong - or have I misunderstood him? if so, please correct me), because a iamb is a short syllable followed by a long syllable, i.e. exactly the opposite of the rhythm in the first variation, which would be a trochee (long-short). I guess Schiff wanted to impress the audience by using technical terms. Problem is, he didn't seem to know what they mean.

[whomakemefeel]

when András talk about bogy bogy he doesnt sneer from that variation which the sound close from jazz musik and that variation from 2:17 to 2:48 min that I am with you in this matter because even András great pianist and he my favorite but he ridiculous from Beethoven in this iambic because musik doesn't concern about any Religious,,when he said I am Protest and I dont like it when he said that about Beethoven

[BilaTarr]

I think you shouldn't confuse "religion" with "spirituality" or "spirit".

[Schamschi]

Then explain his use of the word "iambic" to describe the first variation and his comparison of the second variation with "alle Menschen werden Brüder" from the 9th symphony. I've already made my point regarding the word "iambic", and as far as I know, there isn't any point in the 9th symphony where the phrase "alle Menschen werden Brüder" occurs in the rhythm that Andras Schiff has sung it.

[whomakemefeel]

I didnt say that for me I said that for András when he said I am protest and I dont like bogy bogy and he seek this word for Beethoven variation,,and compare what I say with what he said and however I know my friend what religion and spirit in musik dosnt match to each other

[Schamschi]

I just wonder why he feels that he has to verbally describe the music instead of just playing it for the audience to enjoy/understand (I mean it really isn't anything more than describing, it's not analyzing or explaining, just describing it 1:1). Is it because he thinks it makes him appear more intelligent and understanding of the music, or is it because his playing alone isn't interesting/good enough to transport the music to the audience? Probably both.

[Tolstoy111]

This is a Masterclass. People are expecting him to talk abou the music.  At a normal recital he just plays.

[Schamschi]

I realised this isn't a recital but a masterclass. I wasn't criticizing the fact THAT he is talking, I was merely pointing out that all he does is anticipating/reiterating the music verbally before/after he plays it. (continued...)

[Schamschi]

(...continued) I've heard the audio with the Moonlight sonata and he says some interesting things there, but not here. I don't need Mr. Schiff to tell me how music should affect me or how the contrast between the sections in the 4th variation is like darkness and light. If I want to know how the music sounds, I listen to it itself, rather that to Mr. Schiff talking about it.

[madameg]

The word "iambic" for the first section describes the music so well.

[TheRealDjiN]

it IS a boogie woogie !!! xD sorry Mr. Schiff, but i feel a boogie woogie too here :)

[Weimartoccata]

That's because you're ears are attuned to the vulgar and you cannot hear the deeper meaning in this music. Mr. Schiff is absolutely correct. I'm sorry to sound harsh but you should open your mind and ears to the more sophisticated and deep world of music that is Beethoven... in fact, this is music on the edge. It's far more groundbreaking and expressive than "boogie".

[TheRealDjiN]

Just for your info: I am a pianist of my own, and i played many of the beethoven sonatas and i am pretty sure i understand them exceedingly well. To make things clearer: first of all, i have to guess what you mean by "[...]hear[ing] the deeper meaning[...]"; understanding makes more sense in this context. Second: there is something like feelings in music and it is not your business to judge others feelings and last but not least: everyone has his own opinion, no need for offense small mind!!

[Weimartoccata]

Everyone judges what they hear or read; you are in fact judging Mr. Schiff to be incorrect by your condtradictory statement!

Secondly, Beethoven's music has a grandiosity and depth of meaning which probably you or I cannot fully fathom (yet). Schiff himself even said he only began understanding them later in life, in his 50's. If you indeed understand them "exceedingly well" then you would command $60 a ticket. however, your statement that you hear a "boogie" belies a shallow thought process.

[mishima1974]

RealDJiN is correct. The 'ragtime' section is a testament to Beethoven's COLLOSAL genius. Boogie-woogie musicians made a life out of playing that stuff. Beethoven made it only a small part of his universe.

Mr. Schiff needs to study some boogie-woogie, or at least use a metronome. His rhythm is atrocious and if Beethoven heard his Masterpiece played like this he'd kick Schiff's miserable, arrogant ass!

[Weimartoccata]

Maybe you can enlighten me on exactly how Mr. Schiff's rhythm is atrocious, because to me, he seems to have an extraordinary sense of control over the pulse. If you are merely using a metronome to follow the rhythm and think it's bad because he doesn't line up perfectly... then you know nothing about rhythm! A big part of music is understanding how to control how the listener perceives the pulse, which often involves careful manipulation of the "in-between" beats.

[Weimartoccata]

I would challenge you to listen to any great recordings of Beethoven, particularly Schnabel. Notice how in many instances, certain beats are intentionally distorted, or certain passages will sound rushed.  This "atrocious" rhythm is what makes the playing great! It's only the worst, most ignorant amateurs that think that beats in Beethoven's music must keep step with a metronome to be "in rhythm". (although this may be a good starting point while learning the notes).

[mishima1974]

Listen from 2:20. If you cannot hear that Schiff is flubbing the pulse, then you're deaf and it is meaningless for me to discuss music with deaf people.

Now, perhaps you are in love with Mr. Schiff. Perhaps he is your father, teacher, lover, etc. That is your problem.

Clearly the man is not perfect (although he thinks he is) and if you think he is,

then you're a schmuck.

[Weimartoccata]

Of course he alters the pulse. The manner in which he does is what makes the playing good. you're just too ignorant or dull to realize it. You obviously didn't actually understand any of my posts so why should I bother talking to you further? You are clearly a musical nobody and your aim is only to detract from great musicians. It seems you have no interest in the music itself, because you don't discuss it intelligently at all. It's because of people like you that Western music is dying.

[Weimartoccata]

In fact, I would posit that your use of CAPS for emphasis is merely a ploy to hide your lack of knowledge. Who does that"? only people who want to be obnoxious, or dumb people who think they're smart.

[mishima1974]

Those who cannot debate, defame.

[mishima1974]

My aim is to detract from great musicians? Re-read what I wrote about Beethoven and think about it.

Its because of people like me that Western music is dying? That's a laugh.

Are you a musical somebody? I wonder. If you really were a musical somebody, you'd have better things to do than insult me, that's for sure.

In fact, I'd like to meet you. We can get together and determine who is the more accomplished musician. Agreed? I can send you my phone number in a private message.

[Weimartoccata]

oh dear. so you still can't tell me where the pulse actually falls? well... if you're not going to discuss specifics then there's no use debating. And we don't need to meet to tell who is the better musician. I am engaging you in discussion here and yet you evade saying anything specific. Yes, you insulted me and I insulted you. Big deal, get over it. If you really want to "determine who is more accomplished" just prove it to me here. I have better things to do than meeting you.

[Weimartoccata]

the only thing that's really laughable is that you are so sure of yourself that you actually want to meet in person, even after I utterly destroy you in argument.

[awefaislfdas]

You guys should fight to the death.

[Weimartoccata]

It never ceases to amaze me how for every musician out there who is widely accepted to be a master, there are thousands of idiots like you who think they can criticize their playing (I suppose out of some misplaced insecurity). It is so pitiful the way you try to make him look bad. Why don't you read something by a real music critic talking about his playing? Maybe you would learn something about music. The first step to learning is humbling yourself.

[mishima1974]

David Dubal wrote, "His (Schiff's) Chopin playing can be both interesting and irritating. I heard a performance of the Preludes that was devoid of life. The pianist was playing as though the keyboard were made of eggshells."

I'm not trying to make Schiff look bad. I call it as I see it.

There are many great pianists whom I love. Schiff is just too tight-assed and snooty.

[Weimartoccata]

plus, if you can only say about Schiif that he's "tight-assed and snooty" I don't really want to hear your reaction to my playing, you idiotic moron.

[Weimartoccata]

my point was obviously not that every review of his playing is stellar. I am saying that an actual music critic actually can speak relatively intelligently about his playing (why it was good, or bad). You are looking for faults that don't exist. Believe me, playing with improper feeling of pulse is not going to be one of Schiff's major defects, I guarantee it. But alas, you are just highly ignorant yet arrogant.

[mishima1974]

Weimartoccata, you know a great deal about ignorance and arrogance, I can assure you.

I will send you a message. Call me.

Don't be afraid. You're not a little pussy, are you?

[alexilmagnifico]

his incredible interpretor of Bach... on Szopen I am not crazy about him either :-)

[MadMadMadTom]

Deaf people ... like Beethoven ... perhaps ??

[mishima1974]

There is a time to 'intentionally' distort the pulse and there is a time NOT to.

One should not CONFUSE the two.

Just because Schnabel 'intentionally' distorts the pulse, doesn't mean that Schiff's playing is in good taste.

That is faulty reasoning.

[Weimartoccata]

Also, I think you're confusing the "pulse" with beats. They are not one in the same. Schiff is actually not distorting the overall pulse much at all, but there are slight distortions in the subdivision of beats in between when the main pulse falls. In fact, since you think you are so knowledgeable about this music.. can you tell me on which beats the pulse falls? this will at least be a start.

[Weimartoccata]

Only when occasion calls for it does Schnabel distort the actual pulse. most of the time he alters values which occur between the main pulse. This is also mostly what Schiff does, and you are correct in saying that there are sometimes when it should not be done. However, if you can actually tell me the measure or time in the video when you think schiff violates one of these rules, let me know. I will tell you what I think.

[Weimartoccata]

the rhythm in the passage bears only a small resemblance to boogie. I must stress that Beethoven never wrote a boogie woogie, though, although scores of under-educated music lovers will think he did. In a boogie, the rhythm is different, and much more metronomic (perfectly steady pulse). The reason why Schiff does not play like that is because the music demands a more careful treatment of the beats and in fact is much more sophisticated, and further-reaching in its vision, than a boogie.

[mishima1974]

Beethoven didn't write boogie-woogie he INVENTED it. It was the 20th century amateur musicians that you are obsessed with were merely copying Him.

Do you actually think that Beethoven didn't have a sence of humor? I can assure you that he did. Beethoven was quite capable of humor and fun, unlike Mr. Schiff. In fact, Mr. Schiff's lack of humor is a DEFECT! Do you understand?

Beethoven was the Greatest man whoever lived because His emotional material was COMPLETE.

[Weimartoccata]

this comment is so off-base and makes you sound so stupid to anyone who is at all accomplished in the field of music I hope that this stands for all to see, I really do. It pretty much demotes everything u say down to petty amateurish banter. For this reason I hope no one marks this as poor comment.

[wnxg4nd4lf]

" This music has nothing to do with the miserable piano, we just hear the human spirit"

I like him! :D

[MMFmasterclass]

What a lovely comment. Quite agree with you and suggest that you get the DVD. Almost 3 hours of this remarkable and inspiring analysis of all three of the late sonatas.

[1donpizarro]

@MMFmasterclass A true sense of humor and musical erudition ... I think i'll try to buy the CD. That doesn't sound like a boogie-woogie, indeed!

[Ascendyourthinking]

Reflection of human spirit, soulful instead of sorrowful, Transcendental; Andras Schiff is indeed beyond the music, no wonder his music is completely powerful and beyond the notes!