Great at the end he got it... just to be aware what happens that's meditation. Skillfully done this conversation. We all have to find the truth ourselves at the end.
Just kidding...it's funny to see how Krishnamurti's stance on religion could have been taken as an attack on Trunga. But he seemed to be unmoved in that sense.
The problem with all this arises when you view Krishnamurti, and Trungpa Rinpoche as separate, as two entities having a discourse. (And, your really screwed if you wish, or attempt to "take sides.")
Krishnamurti skillfully and eloquently is representing the "means" while Trungpa Rinpoche equally skillfully represents the wisdom aspect. In truth, these two are inseparable and should always be taken as non dual, as equal and never as two distinct things. Meditation is no different from this.
The greatest treasure of life may perhaps be the opportunity to fool ourselves, and to be fooled, in so many different ways. So rejoice in discovering you've been deceived, fooled, misguided, led astray, and lied to. How else can Creation experience its infinite aspects? And how much sweeter the apple is after tasting rotten meat.
well...I think Chogyam clearly says that awareness is mediation. Krishna agrees that we can be aware of the order and disorder and no need of meditation. Problem is Krishna has some preconceived notion of what meditation is which seems inaccurate. That being in awareness of totality is what we try to do in meditation. If you are in disco and try to be aware, it will be very difficult. But if you are in a peaceful and calm environment you can be more aware. Meditation is all about that. Awareness
'Memory & time are materials of the mind' Krishnamurti declared. He completed the sentence and flashed a look out almost as if he thought someone might disagree. He is eloquent in the extreme. He answers what is meditation?admirably and with a sigh of relief. He observes that our observing is fraught with division and disorder and maybe meditation is the answer. A good heart to heart discussion. Well-done. Trungpa is absolutely perfect. Some of the spam comments would be better labelled sperm!
How can someone talk about something he doesn´t practice? it´s like shooting a gun with no bullets on it. I´m a zen buddhist. but this makes me think about two staments of jesus: "A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit."
"you'll know them by their fruit." It´s not about judging, but about being awake to see who is a real master who lives his teachins or just a talker.
I think krishnamurti is being arrogant and irritating. he just talks anda talks about the inexpressible. And when Rinpoche tries to speak he interrups him. it seems more like a monologue. I think both of them don´t understand what they´re talking about. Krishnamurti was a megalomaniac, a liar, and he betrayed his best friend and all the people that believed in him by having his best friend´s wife as a mistress. Rinpoche, on the other hand, was an alcoholic and cocaine user.
I recommend to read the Patanjali Sutras to more easily understand what you acctually observe when you observe everything inside and outside during meditation. Anyway it helped me to distinguish cause and consequences of the me, in the beginning.
@JJ19867 Lets say that there is wrong and right meditation. WRONG: You are separated from what you are observing, and you put effort trying to change it. RIGHT: Just by observing, without you interfiering, without judging, without separation, what is. Just what is. Now. Here. Without any idea. Pure watching. Acceptance. Stillness. Being aware.
@JJ19867 It's hard to explane. but just aks yourself this: who or what is watching out of your eyes right now?
this is the thing you call "me" right? The thing that "is"... the thing that experiences everything. now what is your body? is this also you? you experience it, so it can not be you right? beceause you ARE the THING that experiences. not the thing that is experienced. this is called "duality". they ask what is meditation? Meditation is NOT seeïng duality.
I have an issue with this approach, although I do find krishnamurti compelling and acknowledge that his point (that we are limited within the I) has powerful resonance... but I have a problem with letting go of the I, since the I actually exists. I am here! and i'm not connected through a terminal to anyone but my own linage. So, could there not be peace that comes about through reflection? Krishna spoke of observation without the self, isn't the self a prerequisite for understanding?
@cloudincloudout asks "Krishna spoke of observation without the self, isn't the self a prerequisite for understanding?"
Using this definition, K would say he is not talking about understanding because understanding is not "observing totally" because understanding relies on a self while meditation is to observe totally without a "me" or a "self" mediating the observing.
@JorikD Which is it? Only one or only nothingness? It is the situation where light looks like a particle from one point of view and a wave from another point of view. Meditation is to not be attached to the words "only one" and "only nothingness." Meditation is to be aware without being entangled by "one" and without being trapped in "nothingness."
different meditations work for different people i think...K used inquiry, but not zazen. Suzuki was into zazen, but not this style of inquiry. Others I know meditate best in their activity it seems...getting some stillness perhaps and good ideas in action. some use prayer...and it is deep. i sit in parks.
finally Krishnamurti agrees meditation is required..except that he needs to refine fake meditations and proper meditations seen around..haha...
Where there is me/self, there is other or division..that is what Buddha has said 2500 ago..and the observation is meditation..and being aware is meditating...if it was that easy to be aware with some effort..then everyone would have done it....
I think people need to have close examination this talk and not conclude by who is talking more..
Although Chogyam Trungpa seems a bit quiet in this conversation, actually, his responses are very wise and strong. He knew what he was saying. Especially when he talked about meditation in extraordinary sense, Krishnamurti seemed interested.
It seems that not that many people here notice that...
@catandpiddle Trungpa's abuse of position seems well recorded. But on Kristimurti
all I've heard of was a longterm affair w/some woman. That doesn't sound the same to me, or really such bad thing, excepting he presented himself as a guy who was abstaning from pussy. (couldn't spell cele____)
@catandpiddle I wish I could remember the source of the krishnamurti article, but I can't? it referred to his ongoing relationship with a couple of women (2) rather than trungpa's take 'em all lifestyle. but yeas, a long-winded and naive teacher I always thought.
Krishnamurti is a fool. All content, very little awareness. His ability to enchant others with his endless dialectic chatter isn't an indicator of anything more than the lack of discrimination on the part of the listener. While he may have a few nuggets of wisdom here and there, the vast majority of his energy flows into the indulgence of self-satisfaction derived from his own personal discovery. You can read it in his body, his movements, his emotion.
@docwhammo I was thinking the same thing through the whole video. there's parts, especially toward the end, where you can see Trungpa sitting there almost rolling his eyes, thinking, "Where did they FIND this guy!?!"
Krishnamurti reminds me of countless teenage boys I've met who've dropped a bunch of acid, read a couple books on New Age magic, and now they won't shut up because they don't know that everyone over 25 has had nirvana. His schtick is all about seeming wise by being cynical.
@docwhammo that said, the one thing I like about Krishnamurti is that he explodes all this mystical nonsense about meditation. He reminds me of the Tibetan saint Saraha, who said, "By the swindle of meditation, liberation is not found." Krishnamurti was an educated Indian, and he knew that the white kids were all being scammed by the religious leaders of his own people, who were just as flaky as the Western ones.
@patternintegrity trungpa does the same thing in numerous talks he has given.. he talks about the problem with modern seekers (especially western ones) as being an issue of "spiritual materialism"
in this particular case, there is no chance for him to express his views beyond the most basic responses - but anyways his intent seems to be more aligned to giving Krishnamurti enough rope to hang himself.. which he does, explicitly (for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear)
@thakursubhash - we are all part of the self, it has everything to do with everybody... once you see through it, all people become transparent
"once you have seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind is waiting there - and the day will come when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you"
I dont know if we are all part of the self or self is part of us. I dont have any idea of self as you do have. It does not matter anyway because an idea about self is not the self. But what I know is your idea about Krishnamurti is not Krishnamurti, its you and only you. When you say krishnamurti is a fool, its your self being reflected. Dont believe, know it by yourself.
@thakursubhash krishnamurti is certainly not beyond reproach, regardless of how fiercely you believe him to be the savior of mankind or the avatar of ultimate purity or whatever other kind of holy superstar..
but dont let me interrupt you from suckling at his teet
You are seriously mistaken. Neither I believe in Krishnamurti nor I suckle at his feet. I love him as I love you. The person who have really understood Krishnamurti would never believe him. He cant be savior of mankind. You are your own savior.
I don't see what was KM refuting all the time about meditation. If we take a look at the Buddhist kind, the Buddha taught about anatta or 'not-self'. In my own limited understanding, it's also like saying this little self or the 'me' is essentially 'not-self'. Basically I see no conflict btwn KM's words and buddhist vipassana meditation. It's about de-constructing the self and all that goes with it, not adding on to it like how we're so conditioned to do in the real world.
The energy between them is wow!!. two brilliant minds stimulating each other.Chogyam asks him to continue as he is obviously enjoying it. and he gives energy to Krishnamurthy to continue, I consider myself lucky to see these two great minds hum such beautiful in harmony. As a long time meditator Krishnamurthy clears certain questions in my mind.
Trungpa couldn't walk his talk, so does that figure in when looking at what he said, and who he was? He abused his power he held over people who followed him. Reports are he fucked hundreds of his students, was under the influence of drugs/alcohol at meetings, and in general acted like an ass, not an enlightened man. This isn't hot news, or a cheap shot, it is a question. When do you speak out, like you would to a Christian leader caught acting out, and call bullshit by its name?
@Starwheel6 Sex is alway spiritual? Chat up some former alter boys who had their assholes reamed and souls damaged by a spiritual leader. Check out the damage a practicing alcoholic w/their self indulgent destructive lifestyle does to family & friends We give up our power and the leader abuses it. Near everytime. Trungpa, staggering drunk, fucks one of his followers who believe him of being someone just a little East of Jesus. That's not an equal exchange, nor spiritual. & you defend this?
@Starwheel6 When you said: Sex is spiritual=no division it sounds like always. But no? Trungpa had great power and prestige, and certainly abused that when fucking his followers by the hundreds. Think about it.
Alcohol didn't affect the man? The man's liver was destroyed by alcohol, causing an early death according to his doctor. He came to meetings drunk and late. I see your appreciation of Trungpa & his teachings, & I agree w/you, But we need to see the whole man with honesty.
@NewVinland hm, well apparently... APPARently, just look see. there IS? a buddha alive. let us see what HE says. what if hes just like the rest. he will certainly be misunderstood.
Two of the greatest masters of our time... discussing the Way in which they approach explaing the Way... to this moment which is awareness, conciousness everpresent - Thank You for this timeless rare gem interview
What K is saying is that you cant practice meditation, because the moment you practice something it is according to a pattern. Something you have learned (which is in the past) and therefore will interfere with the true goal of meditation: being totally aware of everything that is going on inside yourself and outside yourself at every given moment. There is no effort involved, its just the opposite. Its a state of just being there, completely and utterly alive.
@hpudgp This is just it. You don´t have to get anywhere. The problem of all mistics is that they tell you there is something else, something better, another dimension, another world. The point is that you are here, in this dimension, in this reality, right now. There is nothing ordinary about ordinary life. Think about it... You are all you have. This life you are experiencing right now is all there is. Why escape it thinking about something else? Trying to reach something else?
@PPTubby Thanks for your answer. All I wanted to here was that one has to be aware of everything. But you just wrote it one year ago :D, i didnt read precisely enough.
Can you tell me why Osho and K were not talking together to an audience? Because i do not find anything except for a book when Osho talked about it to meet him.
@hpudgp Hi, Osho is more outgoing and promotes himself, like Chopra and others. K was put in the position of a celebrity, he never sought it for himself. He never booked his talks or promoted anything. It was the people around him who made him into a public speaker, a guru, or whatever. Lots of spiritual leaders found it to be profitable, to appear with K, talk about, for or against him. But I doubt K was very interested in all that. He once stated that all this activity was rather superficial.
Osho is talking about seven corpora all things in life have but all in another stadium of awareness.
Is this just one of the varios way he used to get more people listen to him or is this an objective truth he was talking about? He used it to describe the way of getting more and more aware: 1st the physikal one and so on.
But Krishnamurti never talks about things like that.
@hpudgp You don´t need 7 stages to get there, you don´t need anything to get there. Either you are aware or not. It´s that simple. If your mind is filled with concepts about stagesand stories about spirits and other imaginary things, you cant be aware, for your mind is paying attention to itself instead of reality. The problem about seeing reality as it is, isnt because it´s difficult. People don´t see it because its disappointingly common. People can´t believe that this is all there is.
@PPTubby Ok. But I think it is difficult to become aware of my own subconsciousness or all of my unconscious thoughts and actions. There are much of them and i get angry because iam too dump to understand myself.
@hpudgp This is just it. You don´t have to get anywhere. The problem of all mistics is that they tell you there is something else, something better, another dimension, another world. The point is that you are here, in this dimension, in this reality, right now. There is nothing ordinary about ordinary life. Think about it... You are all you have. This life you are experiencing right now is all there is. Why escape it thinking about something else or trying to reach something else?
@PPTubby Very well said.....past is existent in the mental material of the "me" which is in the realm of the ego. Ego, being that sense of self in terms of the objective past mental observations......... Meditation is a sense of beingness........not dividing oneself, not in conflict, not seperate from experiencing now.....
@PPTubby Very well said.....past is existent in the mental material of the "me" which is in the realm of the ego. Ego, being that sense of self in terms of the objective past mental observations......... Meditation is a sense of beingness........not dividing oneself, not in conflict, not seperate from experiencing now.....that is order, that is connection with source consciousness, with what really is................being
@420Insatiable Yes, that´s just it. Thank you for your comment. You provided good word. I always looked for a good sentence to sum up K.s message in this video. As you said" Meditation is a sense of being." If you are aware, with ALL your senses, you are meditating.... and this do not require practice, but ATTENTION.
@420Insatiable Yes, that´s just it. Thank you for your comment. You provided good words. I always looked for a good sentence to sum up K.s message in this video. As you said" Meditation is a sense of being." If you are aware, with ALL your senses, you are meditating.... and this do not require practice, but ATTENTION.
Krishnamurti's argument is very refined. To attempt to impose order through meditation is itself to create more disorder. To meditate in this way is to subsitute "what should be" for "what is" and therefore takes one further away from what is and enlightenment.
Fuck yes Rinpoche, you are right I was "confused".. I was beginning to doubt Krish as a pointer.. Krish talks too much .. I love how they complement each other.
i think the video is for K to do his thing maybe...perhaps that is why T is so quiet. he is basically interviewing K? Also, T was known to give a lot of reverence to elders...which is true of his culture as well. so, i don't think there is anything wrong with K talking so much here...maybe. my take anyway.
Order cannot have a circle drawn around it, cannot be bounded and then identified by an objective observer. Part of the inherent quality of disorder is that it cannot be coalesced into a finite, observable state. Once you could do this, it would cease to be disorder.
But here's the irony. Within disorder, you cannot pull yourself out of it and make it boundedly obseravle, hence you will never be able to truly identify it. You can only assume it...
its an active discussion in which trungpa remains stringently inactive. who can blame krishnamurti for trungpa choosing not to particpate beyond a few remarks?
@sexdeathlovefear You make a good point. I wonder why he's so passive, it almost looks he's intimidated of clear talk, of truthful dialogue. It sounds he's perhaps very much in awe of K, but if he's a real spiritual avatar, as it is said about him, he shouldn't. It puts me not at ease, to see that. I makes me judge that Buddhism is not a real school of wisdom, but a school of human entrainment, an acrobatics of the mind, at the end of the day, through disciplining the mind endlessly.
However mystical one's legacy may make them appear, every human stjll carries in him fallibility. It seem quite obvious that Krishnamurti loves to hear himself talk and is rambling with little interest in learning anything from Trungpa Rinpoche.
Throughout his life, Krishnamurti denounced the student/teacher relationship, encouraging others to walk with him as "two friends." However, t is clear here that he is trying to take a patient, respectful, yet unimpressed Trungpa Rinpoche to school.
If Trungpa disagreed, he could have spoken up, but he is sitting silently and taking it all in. Krishnamurti is the kind of man who if he is making a point, he will usually catch a mistake faster than the others because he has dedicated so much focus to pursuing truth. And he takes his time to speak because he is actually communicating, not spitting out platitudes.
Every humen carries the potential for fallacy, but I think he's faced that fact more completely than 99.9% of humanity.
If I annoyed ptuli500 by pointing you to the truth, it wasn't about you trying to correct us all before, it was about your ego all along.
Anyway, Kmurti is communicating with himself, but don't you have more than one voice in your head? Your conscience could be a little cricket, or if you actually use it, it can be a committee that mimics every person you have ever had a conversation with. In that way, Krishnamurti takes us thru his thought process verbally as an author does on the page.
Unfortunately, Krishnimurti; it seems like has not spend a single second meditating and yet makes a lengthy comment on meditation......If he says I did and it is all non-sense (at least Richard Dawkins admits that he tried meditation and but it do not do anything for him). Krishnamurti looks more like a British lord than an Indian mystic.
Why does he have to look like a mystic in order to speak authoritatively about meditation? Do I have to wear a suit and tie to talk politics? This is the sort of thing he always talks about: creating images and holding onto them.
FYI, Krishnamurti was born in India and educated in England. He considers himself a citizen of the world, without a flag or religion (labels, etc...) to hide behind.
ok, you are right, he is a world citizen and yes, educated in England, born in India, no labels, no flag, and no religion too. Thanks for sharing, obviously you know a lot about him... good for you
I understand what people are saying here by Krishnamurti speaking and Chogyam listening. The people are saying that Chogyam is wise because he his not the one speaking. Krishnamurti is speaking. But Chogyam is not just pretending to listen, he is wise in listening to the teacher. The speaker is wise, the listener is wise. I do not think this is about who's wiser. Whoever's side you may think you are, please listen carefully. Don't pretend to listen to seem wise.
@punk2116 Chogyam Trungpa doesn't speak because KM makes dialog or conversation impossible. KM speaks non stop, KM asks questions not for a response but only as a way to facilitate getting his point across, KM doesn't listen, in fact almost every time CT opens his mouth KM rather rudely interrupts him. For me it is incredible how by simply sitting presently, listening generously, and a few sentences, CT perfectly illustrates KM as preaching on a intellectual and immediately hypocritical trip.
TolteKatl i agree with you .. and after following watching and reading Krishnamurti for a long time now .. He never let people speak ,. To me Trungpa Rinpoche is the real teaching here .. the way , he listen .. and until the end .. he will just get up and leave .. asking for nothing .
I didnt even know Trungpa when i first watched this video but i was very impress by the way he absorb all and leave ..
Krishnamurty is beyond any tradition, he is true Budha himself, though he would be probably offended to here that.
if you are true budhist you should know the name of Nagarjuna II C. BC.
His ideas come close to those of KM, why I did not put it otherway, because truth has not time. KM is close to Zen Budhism or Zen Budhism is close to Krishnamurty but there is a little nuance:
KM denies orgenized religions or even personal gurus 100%.
KM says: why one should become attached to a teaching while one can discover the truth oneself.
All the great spiritual leaders like Budha, Jesus achieved great insight but failed to unsderstand that so called "enlightment" can be experienced only through personal understanding, true meditation that is natural thing and not a tradition in effort.
@tenellifranco Even then you cant really talk about a experience because their can only be an expierience when their is a experiencer. The one that can experience can only be a ME (or ego). The same ego that prevents entlightement..If the mind is really still their is no center and certainly no one who can experience.
@oggfish agreed:). The question lies if this experience can be tought by a guru, or by any orgenised religion? the answere is no, right? I think that some people like Juddu have great spiritual talent and they can inspire or lead us towards the truth but never can they uncondition us, it's our "job"
@tenellifranco yeah, words are never `IT`. Experience is really the "wrong" word in what you want to point out. It really is a instant insight without any experience. The same counts for "spiritual talent", that doenst exist in my opinion. Its our natural state. Jiddu never was out of that state througout childhood but it has nothing to do with talent. When you live in that state you have the power to point it out to others and be a "master" of using words aswell. Seeing their use instantly.
It's funny to see the comments on Trungpa allegedly being under the influence. It's also funny to see the comments on presumed power (im)balance between the two. What is most funny to me in this is that the people who comments talk about their own perspective on the "me's" talking in this video.
The words used are only metaphors. Since the method is negation, K obviously needs a lot of words. What is, is only one. What is not, are many many things (hence the "and so on" K often uses)
I very much appreciated the opportunity to see this video but found it a huge disappointment. K rambles on without making a connection, and CTR just lets the ball drop. My gut says there is something off about this.
hi, dear sir, you said: (all of k`s questions come from his "me" mind) that is your idia or your opinion, never mind what you call it. so, if i may, i asked you : where it come from? come it from your "me" mind so? best regards.
k continuously tells ctr that all of these things (spirituality, meditation, searching, etc...) come from the "me" (mind) which he spoke of in the previous parts to this video.
i was simply pointing out that k's questions come from the me/mind too. i love both k and ctr. i think k wouldn't let ctr speak as much and went on and on. i kind of felt like ctr looked in the video.
There is the mind; which is all of the hemisphere's and different lobes of the brain, as one instrument.
There is the frontal lobe of the cerebrum, the areas of the brain that hold short and long term memory. That combination is responsible for Ego, the me. Ego's food is thought images (abstracted from sense observation); and its digestive process is thinking (to compare, contrast, criticize, justify, and conclude).
Fantastic little talk this was. Many Trungpa devotees here seem to want to rag on Krishnamurti for stealing the show but understand that K was introducing something completely new to him so naturally he needed to listen and absorb all that was being said. I'm sure if they would have engaged in many conversations throughout their lives there would have been much more dialog between them anyway. Regardless this was a great session. Thanks for posting.
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murti sucks. damn. what was new? what a ham! this is all cheap philosophy. maybe even nihlism. i looked up Murti AND Trungpa in STRIPPING THE GURU, both have a damning biography. Look at the tree with a free mind: wow, how original. dude. YOU DO HAVE TO PRACTICE and train the mind just like the body if you want peak performance. only in theory can you JUST DO IT.
That's one hell of a comb-over! Exquisite! Beyond any of the T.v. preachers I've seen so far. I will follow any man's teaching based on the strength of their comb-over alone, and Krishnamurti's is the best ever!
By seeing the fact that during this dialogue both never come to a point of real communication (!), i see that the problem of transmission, wich is one of the crucial point of this dialogue, this problem is a fire question! a the end of it, it must be no one anymore, no gradual path, no direct transformation, but something else, free from spirituality, free from materialism, beyond tradition (Trungpa) and beyond modernity (krishnamurti), wonderful time to see what never happens before!
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@DeadJesus100 You wrote
"Meet me face to face you fucking coward hiding your troll account on youtube"
DeadJesus100 13 hours ago
watch?v=ROjGm34EfFc&lc
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I'll bitch slap you ever which way sideways...Poindexter
staIkervisions 2 days ago
Great at the end he got it... just to be aware what happens that's meditation. Skillfully done this conversation. We all have to find the truth ourselves at the end.
diedjella 1 month ago
eventually all this talking and neurosis , giving him the space allows him to eventually see it.... and yes i see myself in krishna....
Janewomanpower 1 month ago
Krishnamurti - 1
Trungpa - 0
LOL!
Just kidding...it's funny to see how Krishnamurti's stance on religion could have been taken as an attack on Trunga. But he seemed to be unmoved in that sense.
youarealreadyawake 3 months ago
very nice :) Thanks for uploading.
rajusaar 3 months ago in playlist More videos from tamedmind
Trungpa 3:44, man this is so boring!!
melquiades6759 5 months ago
The problem with all this arises when you view Krishnamurti, and Trungpa Rinpoche as separate, as two entities having a discourse. (And, your really screwed if you wish, or attempt to "take sides.")
Krishnamurti skillfully and eloquently is representing the "means" while Trungpa Rinpoche equally skillfully represents the wisdom aspect. In truth, these two are inseparable and should always be taken as non dual, as equal and never as two distinct things. Meditation is no different from this.
kunzangrangdrol 5 months ago
@JPABLOification.. even buddha gave sermons... that doesnt mean he dint know.
sumitbhardwaj203 5 months ago
Yes thank you very much for the videos - they were humorous, thought provoking and disappointing.
kookymunstar 5 months ago
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kookymunstar 5 months ago
Thank you for this amazing post!!!
KeliAnnPyeBeshara 5 months ago
Wish there was a movie with Osho, Krishnamurti, Adi Da, Dalai Lama, Sai Baba, Papaji all together ;)
spaceshi1984 6 months ago
observing these two at play-- without division, without duality, then there's One...
P45million 6 months ago
The greatest treasure of life may perhaps be the opportunity to fool ourselves, and to be fooled, in so many different ways. So rejoice in discovering you've been deceived, fooled, misguided, led astray, and lied to. How else can Creation experience its infinite aspects? And how much sweeter the apple is after tasting rotten meat.
No1warp9 6 months ago
well...I think Chogyam clearly says that awareness is mediation. Krishna agrees that we can be aware of the order and disorder and no need of meditation. Problem is Krishna has some preconceived notion of what meditation is which seems inaccurate. That being in awareness of totality is what we try to do in meditation. If you are in disco and try to be aware, it will be very difficult. But if you are in a peaceful and calm environment you can be more aware. Meditation is all about that. Awareness
sherab67 7 months ago
thank you so much for posting these videos!!
luvvx3 8 months ago
'Memory & time are materials of the mind' Krishnamurti declared. He completed the sentence and flashed a look out almost as if he thought someone might disagree. He is eloquent in the extreme. He answers what is meditation?admirably and with a sigh of relief. He observes that our observing is fraught with division and disorder and maybe meditation is the answer. A good heart to heart discussion. Well-done. Trungpa is absolutely perfect. Some of the spam comments would be better labelled sperm!
glrcmptn 8 months ago
is fighting, struggle, suppression bad? as JK said? what bad? and what is evil?
zatoichiable 8 months ago
5:23 HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
kdpflanders1 9 months ago
as OSHO said to the effect: that one single step--and the whole journey of many lifetimes is over: when you are aware that you are aware..
;-)
P45million 10 months ago
How can someone talk about something he doesn´t practice? it´s like shooting a gun with no bullets on it. I´m a zen buddhist. but this makes me think about two staments of jesus: "A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit."
"you'll know them by their fruit." It´s not about judging, but about being awake to see who is a real master who lives his teachins or just a talker.
JPABLOification 10 months ago
There´s a zen saying: "Talkers do not know. Knowers do not talk".
JPABLOification 10 months ago 2
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BwillBwill1 6 months ago
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vidkid007 5 months ago
I think krishnamurti is being arrogant and irritating. he just talks anda talks about the inexpressible. And when Rinpoche tries to speak he interrups him. it seems more like a monologue. I think both of them don´t understand what they´re talking about. Krishnamurti was a megalomaniac, a liar, and he betrayed his best friend and all the people that believed in him by having his best friend´s wife as a mistress. Rinpoche, on the other hand, was an alcoholic and cocaine user.
JPABLOification 10 months ago
@JPABLOification How did the lives of these two men ended? bitter or serene. . .
zatoichiable 8 months ago
Just give me some Peyote and a Hang-glider.
MrBeautifulba1 11 months ago
Krishnamurti taking about meditation really~~
meaning is observe your greed confusion sadness phobia ......
then you can get love wisdom peace......maybe.....
may you really peace.
beautifulmindisthis 11 months ago
haha.... this is not even a discussion. They understand each other. they talk about the dilemma of self realization. Verry interesting
JorikD 1 year ago
I recommend to read the Patanjali Sutras to more easily understand what you acctually observe when you observe everything inside and outside during meditation. Anyway it helped me to distinguish cause and consequences of the me, in the beginning.
Stockholmsara 1 year ago
al rinpoche le suda todo un huevo !! podria por lo menos decir q no entiende !!
jejjejejjajjajajajijijijijjojojoojo
urusol 1 year ago
I have no idea what they are talking. is meditation a good or a bad thing? LOL
JJ19867 1 year ago
@JJ19867 Lets say that there is wrong and right meditation. WRONG: You are separated from what you are observing, and you put effort trying to change it. RIGHT: Just by observing, without you interfiering, without judging, without separation, what is. Just what is. Now. Here. Without any idea. Pure watching. Acceptance. Stillness. Being aware.
FastAkira 1 year ago
@JJ19867 It's hard to explane. but just aks yourself this: who or what is watching out of your eyes right now?
this is the thing you call "me" right? The thing that "is"... the thing that experiences everything. now what is your body? is this also you? you experience it, so it can not be you right? beceause you ARE the THING that experiences. not the thing that is experienced. this is called "duality". they ask what is meditation? Meditation is NOT seeïng duality.
JorikD 1 year ago
@JorikD kinda like those who see themselves as individuals without knowing the ''in divided duality of oneself''
vincikd007bg008 9 months ago
I have an issue with this approach, although I do find krishnamurti compelling and acknowledge that his point (that we are limited within the I) has powerful resonance... but I have a problem with letting go of the I, since the I actually exists. I am here! and i'm not connected through a terminal to anyone but my own linage. So, could there not be peace that comes about through reflection? Krishna spoke of observation without the self, isn't the self a prerequisite for understanding?
cloudincloudout 1 year ago
@cloudincloudout we are breathing the same air as everybody, walking the same earth, using the same sun
MohammadJK197 1 year ago
@cloudincloudout asks "Krishna spoke of observation without the self, isn't the self a prerequisite for understanding?"
Using this definition, K would say he is not talking about understanding because understanding is not "observing totally" because understanding relies on a self while meditation is to observe totally without a "me" or a "self" mediating the observing.
GregoryWonderwheel 1 year ago
@GregoryWonderwheel Meditation is seeing that there is no self and no other. there is only one. only nothingnes.
JorikD 1 year ago
@JorikD Which is it? Only one or only nothingness? It is the situation where light looks like a particle from one point of view and a wave from another point of view. Meditation is to not be attached to the words "only one" and "only nothingness." Meditation is to be aware without being entangled by "one" and without being trapped in "nothingness."
GregoryWonderwheel 1 year ago
Comment removed
Midnight7Marauder 1 year ago
different meditations work for different people i think...K used inquiry, but not zazen. Suzuki was into zazen, but not this style of inquiry. Others I know meditate best in their activity it seems...getting some stillness perhaps and good ideas in action. some use prayer...and it is deep. i sit in parks.
jhgosnell 1 year ago
The most outstanding lesson here is Krishnamurti's demonstration of a blown up spiritual ego...
Gulli3000 1 year ago
finally Krishnamurti agrees meditation is required..except that he needs to refine fake meditations and proper meditations seen around..haha...
Where there is me/self, there is other or division..that is what Buddha has said 2500 ago..and the observation is meditation..and being aware is meditating...if it was that easy to be aware with some effort..then everyone would have done it....
I think people need to have close examination this talk and not conclude by who is talking more..
sherab67 1 year ago
Although Chogyam Trungpa seems a bit quiet in this conversation, actually, his responses are very wise and strong. He knew what he was saying. Especially when he talked about meditation in extraordinary sense, Krishnamurti seemed interested.
It seems that not that many people here notice that...
bcatyahoo 1 year ago
meditation is a lie.
vajrapiper 1 year ago
too complicate !
douglasmacjames 1 year ago
K speaks of the level of non-duality
where there is no division between self & other. Most everyone is not at that level
therefore they need a path to attain non-duality.
K doesn't offer a gradual path to non-duality & expects people
to maintain full awareness of non-duality 24/7.
Unfortunately most everyone especially given conditioning do not have
the capacity to maintain non-duality awareness 24/7.
People need a path to glimpse it and a practice to stabilize it.
Buddha recognized this
Starwheel6 1 year ago
@Starwheel6 a very concise and accurate summarization indeed ...
catandpiddle 1 year ago
Thank you for this amazing interview!
angomako 1 year ago
two notorious student abusers, charlatans, discussing things I now have no doubt they don't really understand. good riddance ...
catandpiddle 1 year ago
@catandpiddle Trungpa's abuse of position seems well recorded. But on Kristimurti
all I've heard of was a longterm affair w/some woman. That doesn't sound the same to me, or really such bad thing, excepting he presented himself as a guy who was abstaning from pussy. (couldn't spell cele____)
Paahau 1 year ago
@catandpiddle I wish I could remember the source of the krishnamurti article, but I can't? it referred to his ongoing relationship with a couple of women (2) rather than trungpa's take 'em all lifestyle. but yeas, a long-winded and naive teacher I always thought.
catandpiddle 1 year ago
Krishnamurti is a fool. All content, very little awareness. His ability to enchant others with his endless dialectic chatter isn't an indicator of anything more than the lack of discrimination on the part of the listener. While he may have a few nuggets of wisdom here and there, the vast majority of his energy flows into the indulgence of self-satisfaction derived from his own personal discovery. You can read it in his body, his movements, his emotion.
docwhammo 1 year ago
@docwhammo I was thinking the same thing through the whole video. there's parts, especially toward the end, where you can see Trungpa sitting there almost rolling his eyes, thinking, "Where did they FIND this guy!?!"
Krishnamurti reminds me of countless teenage boys I've met who've dropped a bunch of acid, read a couple books on New Age magic, and now they won't shut up because they don't know that everyone over 25 has had nirvana. His schtick is all about seeming wise by being cynical.
patternintegrity 1 year ago
@docwhammo that said, the one thing I like about Krishnamurti is that he explodes all this mystical nonsense about meditation. He reminds me of the Tibetan saint Saraha, who said, "By the swindle of meditation, liberation is not found." Krishnamurti was an educated Indian, and he knew that the white kids were all being scammed by the religious leaders of his own people, who were just as flaky as the Western ones.
patternintegrity 1 year ago
@patternintegrity trungpa does the same thing in numerous talks he has given.. he talks about the problem with modern seekers (especially western ones) as being an issue of "spiritual materialism"
in this particular case, there is no chance for him to express his views beyond the most basic responses - but anyways his intent seems to be more aligned to giving Krishnamurti enough rope to hang himself.. which he does, explicitly (for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear)
docwhammo 1 year ago
@docwhammo What you read in Krishnamurti is part of yourself being reflected
, it has nothing to do with him.
thakursubhash 8 months ago
@thakursubhash - we are all part of the self, it has everything to do with everybody... once you see through it, all people become transparent
"once you have seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind is waiting there - and the day will come when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you"
docwhammo 8 months ago
@docwhammo
I dont know if we are all part of the self or self is part of us. I dont have any idea of self as you do have. It does not matter anyway because an idea about self is not the self. But what I know is your idea about Krishnamurti is not Krishnamurti, its you and only you. When you say krishnamurti is a fool, its your self being reflected. Dont believe, know it by yourself.
thakursubhash 8 months ago
@docwhammo
if you go to a mirror and the mirror shows your face to be ugly, is it the fault of the mirror?
thakursubhash 8 months ago
@thakursubhash krishnamurti is certainly not beyond reproach, regardless of how fiercely you believe him to be the savior of mankind or the avatar of ultimate purity or whatever other kind of holy superstar..
but dont let me interrupt you from suckling at his teet
go ahead and drink it down
docwhammo 8 months ago
@docwhammo
You are seriously mistaken. Neither I believe in Krishnamurti nor I suckle at his feet. I love him as I love you. The person who have really understood Krishnamurti would never believe him. He cant be savior of mankind. You are your own savior.
thakursubhash 8 months ago
wowww....
ajbadal 1 year ago
I don't see what was KM refuting all the time about meditation. If we take a look at the Buddhist kind, the Buddha taught about anatta or 'not-self'. In my own limited understanding, it's also like saying this little self or the 'me' is essentially 'not-self'. Basically I see no conflict btwn KM's words and buddhist vipassana meditation. It's about de-constructing the self and all that goes with it, not adding on to it like how we're so conditioned to do in the real world.
aloozer 1 year ago
Krishnamurti is talking about meditation, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche IS meditation...
Rijogs 1 year ago
@Rijogs ^This
Frozeal 1 year ago
Mr K. M. is he answering or questioning . Buddha realy have passion I can see that now
pemala777 1 year ago
sorry is Km still alive?
vjpillay 1 year ago
The energy between them is wow!!. two brilliant minds stimulating each other.Chogyam asks him to continue as he is obviously enjoying it. and he gives energy to Krishnamurthy to continue, I consider myself lucky to see these two great minds hum such beautiful in harmony. As a long time meditator Krishnamurthy clears certain questions in my mind.
sunnyguy1010 1 year ago
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!! MMM :)
absorbedlotus 1 year ago
So K. Mindfulllness, & Awareness - arising from stillness, naturally; unforced and unstructured.
Billions of atoms, dance together to form millions of cells to form vessels that hold us all.
Stillness connects us deeply, with this vessel.
We reflect this Order in teachings, in instruction simply to share the way of attaining full realisation of the natural phenomenon.
We dance, and sit in stillness, simultaneously, much like these two wonderfully inspirational beings.
sethagardner 1 year ago
@sethagardner THERE IS NO STILLNESS IN WHAT YOU SPEAK!
absorbedlotus 1 year ago
Trungpa couldn't walk his talk, so does that figure in when looking at what he said, and who he was? He abused his power he held over people who followed him. Reports are he fucked hundreds of his students, was under the influence of drugs/alcohol at meetings, and in general acted like an ass, not an enlightened man. This isn't hot news, or a cheap shot, it is a question. When do you speak out, like you would to a Christian leader caught acting out, and call bullshit by its name?
Paahau 1 year ago
@Paahau haha wooow. acutally dont know wehter to be surprised by that statement or not.
absorbedlotus 1 year ago
@Paahau Read the biography of the Tibetan Saint Drukpa Kunley.
As he came into a town he fucked all the hot babes, drank as much chang
(Tibetan beer) as he wanted and wore his mala around his cock. It's ethnocentric conditioning to believe a Holy Man cannot have consensual
tantric sex with willing woman & maintain non-dual awareness after drinking
beer. Tantric yogis do not have an iota of the Christian guilt trip that has been
drummed into westerners about sex.
Sex is spiritual=no division.
Starwheel6 1 year ago
@Starwheel6 Sex is alway spiritual? Chat up some former alter boys who had their assholes reamed and souls damaged by a spiritual leader. Check out the damage a practicing alcoholic w/their self indulgent destructive lifestyle does to family & friends We give up our power and the leader abuses it. Near everytime. Trungpa, staggering drunk, fucks one of his followers who believe him of being someone just a little East of Jesus. That's not an equal exchange, nor spiritual. & you defend this?
Paahau 1 year ago
@Paahau Where's the word "always" in my statements?
Never said "always". Did say "consensual" & "willing".
High Tantric yogis can drink without losing an iota of clarity.
I've witnessed it. Trungpa had this capacity. It's rare but real.
Trungpa -not self-indulgent, he was a rare breed who was
bringing BuddhaDharma to the west unlike any other. When an
exceptional yogi is full blast the kundalini energy is like a dozen
power plants buzzing a nervous system. Alcohol can serve as a dampener.
Starwheel6 1 year ago
@Starwheel6 When you said: Sex is spiritual=no division it sounds like always. But no? Trungpa had great power and prestige, and certainly abused that when fucking his followers by the hundreds. Think about it.
Alcohol didn't affect the man? The man's liver was destroyed by alcohol, causing an early death according to his doctor. He came to meetings drunk and late. I see your appreciation of Trungpa & his teachings, & I agree w/you, But we need to see the whole man with honesty.
Paahau 1 year ago
I think these are the same things that the Buddha would be saying to us if he were alive.
NewVinland 1 year ago
@NewVinland hm, well apparently... APPARently, just look see. there IS? a buddha alive. let us see what HE says. what if hes just like the rest. he will certainly be misunderstood.
absorbedlotus 1 year ago
Wonderful. Thank you so much for uploading.
Caillagh78 1 year ago
Two of the greatest masters of our time... discussing the Way in which they approach explaing the Way... to this moment which is awareness, conciousness everpresent - Thank You for this timeless rare gem interview
Johnnybeak 1 year ago
@Johnnybeak poopshitting sound
absorbedlotus 1 year ago
@absorbedlotus ?? What a childlike unevolved mantra to have for yourself
Johnnybeak 1 year ago
@Johnnybeak what is mantra?
absorbedlotus 1 year ago
@absorbedlotus "Mantras are the natural sounds of the dimension of the divine,
and are recited as the vibrational key to that dimension." Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Starwheel6 1 year ago
What K is saying is that you cant practice meditation, because the moment you practice something it is according to a pattern. Something you have learned (which is in the past) and therefore will interfere with the true goal of meditation: being totally aware of everything that is going on inside yourself and outside yourself at every given moment. There is no effort involved, its just the opposite. Its a state of just being there, completely and utterly alive.
PPTubby 1 year ago 11
@PPTubby But how to get there?
hpudgp 7 months ago
@hpudgp This is just it. You don´t have to get anywhere. The problem of all mistics is that they tell you there is something else, something better, another dimension, another world. The point is that you are here, in this dimension, in this reality, right now. There is nothing ordinary about ordinary life. Think about it... You are all you have. This life you are experiencing right now is all there is. Why escape it thinking about something else? Trying to reach something else?
PPTubby 7 months ago
@PPTubby Thanks for your answer. All I wanted to here was that one has to be aware of everything. But you just wrote it one year ago :D, i didnt read precisely enough.
Can you tell me why Osho and K were not talking together to an audience? Because i do not find anything except for a book when Osho talked about it to meet him.
hpudgp 7 months ago
@hpudgp Hi, Osho is more outgoing and promotes himself, like Chopra and others. K was put in the position of a celebrity, he never sought it for himself. He never booked his talks or promoted anything. It was the people around him who made him into a public speaker, a guru, or whatever. Lots of spiritual leaders found it to be profitable, to appear with K, talk about, for or against him. But I doubt K was very interested in all that. He once stated that all this activity was rather superficial.
PPTubby 7 months ago
@PPTubby I have one more question.
Osho is talking about seven corpora all things in life have but all in another stadium of awareness.
Is this just one of the varios way he used to get more people listen to him or is this an objective truth he was talking about? He used it to describe the way of getting more and more aware: 1st the physikal one and so on.
But Krishnamurti never talks about things like that.
It is confusing me.
hpudgp 7 months ago
@hpudgp You don´t need 7 stages to get there, you don´t need anything to get there. Either you are aware or not. It´s that simple. If your mind is filled with concepts about stagesand stories about spirits and other imaginary things, you cant be aware, for your mind is paying attention to itself instead of reality. The problem about seeing reality as it is, isnt because it´s difficult. People don´t see it because its disappointingly common. People can´t believe that this is all there is.
PPTubby 7 months ago
@PPTubby Ok. But I think it is difficult to become aware of my own subconsciousness or all of my unconscious thoughts and actions. There are much of them and i get angry because iam too dump to understand myself.
hpudgp 7 months ago
@hpudgp This is just it. You don´t have to get anywhere. The problem of all mistics is that they tell you there is something else, something better, another dimension, another world. The point is that you are here, in this dimension, in this reality, right now. There is nothing ordinary about ordinary life. Think about it... You are all you have. This life you are experiencing right now is all there is. Why escape it thinking about something else or trying to reach something else?
PPTubby 7 months ago
@PPTubby Very well said.....
420Insatiable 6 months ago
@PPTubby Very well said.....past is existent in the mental material of the "me" which is in the realm of the ego. Ego, being that sense of self in terms of the objective past mental observations......... Meditation is a sense of beingness........not dividing oneself, not in conflict, not seperate from experiencing now.....
420Insatiable 6 months ago
@PPTubby Very well said.....past is existent in the mental material of the "me" which is in the realm of the ego. Ego, being that sense of self in terms of the objective past mental observations......... Meditation is a sense of beingness........not dividing oneself, not in conflict, not seperate from experiencing now.....that is order, that is connection with source consciousness, with what really is................being
420Insatiable 6 months ago
@420Insatiable Yes, that´s just it. Thank you for your comment. You provided good word. I always looked for a good sentence to sum up K.s message in this video. As you said" Meditation is a sense of being." If you are aware, with ALL your senses, you are meditating.... and this do not require practice, but ATTENTION.
Thanks. : )
PPTubby 6 months ago
@420Insatiable Yes, that´s just it. Thank you for your comment. You provided good words. I always looked for a good sentence to sum up K.s message in this video. As you said" Meditation is a sense of being." If you are aware, with ALL your senses, you are meditating.... and this do not require practice, but ATTENTION.
Thanks. : )
PPTubby 6 months ago
Trugpa is trying to grasp what K is saying. It is not an easy concept, since T is a buddhist an buddhists are used to practice meditation.
PPTubby 1 year ago
Krishnamurti's argument is very refined. To attempt to impose order through meditation is itself to create more disorder. To meditate in this way is to subsitute "what should be" for "what is" and therefore takes one further away from what is and enlightenment.
PseudoApollodorus 1 year ago
Fuck yes Rinpoche, you are right I was "confused".. I was beginning to doubt Krish as a pointer.. Krish talks too much .. I love how they complement each other.
ravkes 1 year ago
i think the video is for K to do his thing maybe...perhaps that is why T is so quiet. he is basically interviewing K? Also, T was known to give a lot of reverence to elders...which is true of his culture as well. so, i don't think there is anything wrong with K talking so much here...maybe. my take anyway.
jhgosnell 1 year ago
Surely it's not possible to observe disorder.
Order cannot have a circle drawn around it, cannot be bounded and then identified by an objective observer. Part of the inherent quality of disorder is that it cannot be coalesced into a finite, observable state. Once you could do this, it would cease to be disorder.
But here's the irony. Within disorder, you cannot pull yourself out of it and make it boundedly obseravle, hence you will never be able to truly identify it. You can only assume it...
Neanderthalcouzin 1 year ago
...never truly knowing. Only half-communicating it as an imperfect thought.
Neanderthalcouzin 1 year ago
its an active discussion in which trungpa remains stringently inactive. who can blame krishnamurti for trungpa choosing not to particpate beyond a few remarks?
sexdeathlovefear 1 year ago
@sexdeathlovefear You make a good point. I wonder why he's so passive, it almost looks he's intimidated of clear talk, of truthful dialogue. It sounds he's perhaps very much in awe of K, but if he's a real spiritual avatar, as it is said about him, he shouldn't. It puts me not at ease, to see that. I makes me judge that Buddhism is not a real school of wisdom, but a school of human entrainment, an acrobatics of the mind, at the end of the day, through disciplining the mind endlessly.
ipublica 1 year ago
Krishnamurti is my hero! the goal of advancement through compassion and empathy is an awsome goal.
mordsith05 1 year ago
Beauty lies in the absence of the beholder!!
rama186 2 years ago
Renpochea is soo smort he is using this old man to find himslfe in his own mind heheheheheheheheh
khangsar88 2 years ago
K Murti U R talking to uor self I only have 1 question who R U ask uor self
pemala777 2 years ago
disorder is taking part in order. when you dont take part in order (just observe it) it becomes order
alfabetins 2 years ago
Order is become Lord!
qxw667 2 years ago
However mystical one's legacy may make them appear, every human stjll carries in him fallibility. It seem quite obvious that Krishnamurti loves to hear himself talk and is rambling with little interest in learning anything from Trungpa Rinpoche.
Throughout his life, Krishnamurti denounced the student/teacher relationship, encouraging others to walk with him as "two friends." However, t is clear here that he is trying to take a patient, respectful, yet unimpressed Trungpa Rinpoche to school.
blingblangshizzle 2 years ago
hahaha what is clear here is that your cup is too full. humble urself completely, then youll be able to listen.
desicuellar 2 years ago
If Trungpa disagreed, he could have spoken up, but he is sitting silently and taking it all in. Krishnamurti is the kind of man who if he is making a point, he will usually catch a mistake faster than the others because he has dedicated so much focus to pursuing truth. And he takes his time to speak because he is actually communicating, not spitting out platitudes.
Every humen carries the potential for fallacy, but I think he's faced that fact more completely than 99.9% of humanity.
theseanze 2 years ago 3
@theseanze
He is communicating with himself. A conversation he enjoys very much:)
blingblangshizzle 2 years ago
If I annoyed ptuli500 by pointing you to the truth, it wasn't about you trying to correct us all before, it was about your ego all along.
Anyway, Kmurti is communicating with himself, but don't you have more than one voice in your head? Your conscience could be a little cricket, or if you actually use it, it can be a committee that mimics every person you have ever had a conversation with. In that way, Krishnamurti takes us thru his thought process verbally as an author does on the page.
theseanze 2 years ago
Could not agree more!!!
ptuli500 2 years ago
It is enough...indeed
ptuli500 2 years ago
Unfortunately, Krishnimurti; it seems like has not spend a single second meditating and yet makes a lengthy comment on meditation......If he says I did and it is all non-sense (at least Richard Dawkins admits that he tried meditation and but it do not do anything for him). Krishnamurti looks more like a British lord than an Indian mystic.
ptuli500 2 years ago
Why does he have to look like a mystic in order to speak authoritatively about meditation? Do I have to wear a suit and tie to talk politics? This is the sort of thing he always talks about: creating images and holding onto them.
FYI, Krishnamurti was born in India and educated in England. He considers himself a citizen of the world, without a flag or religion (labels, etc...) to hide behind.
theseanze 2 years ago
ok, you are right, he is a world citizen and yes, educated in England, born in India, no labels, no flag, and no religion too. Thanks for sharing, obviously you know a lot about him... good for you
ptuli500 2 years ago
3:44 CT is falling asleep.lol
ekimebua 2 years ago
I understand what people are saying here by Krishnamurti speaking and Chogyam listening. The people are saying that Chogyam is wise because he his not the one speaking. Krishnamurti is speaking. But Chogyam is not just pretending to listen, he is wise in listening to the teacher. The speaker is wise, the listener is wise. I do not think this is about who's wiser. Whoever's side you may think you are, please listen carefully. Don't pretend to listen to seem wise.
punk2116 2 years ago 25
Don't pretend period.
dhRzztt 2 years ago
Yes, Yes, very unwise to pretend to listen to seem wise...but it works great if you want to get laid....or maintain a marriage.
Cashify 1 year ago
@punk2116 Chogyam Trungpa doesn't speak because KM makes dialog or conversation impossible. KM speaks non stop, KM asks questions not for a response but only as a way to facilitate getting his point across, KM doesn't listen, in fact almost every time CT opens his mouth KM rather rudely interrupts him. For me it is incredible how by simply sitting presently, listening generously, and a few sentences, CT perfectly illustrates KM as preaching on a intellectual and immediately hypocritical trip.
Denmalition 1 year ago
@Denmalition yeah. denmal, thanks for illustrating that.
absorbedlotus 1 year ago
28 minutes of K and 22 seconds of Rinpoche..
I'm considering what a learning that is.
craigtechno 2 years ago
I can see he truth,Trungpas hurt his throat and he didn't want to talk.
vxt1024 2 years ago
TolteKatl i agree with you .. and after following watching and reading Krishnamurti for a long time now .. He never let people speak ,. To me Trungpa Rinpoche is the real teaching here .. the way , he listen .. and until the end .. he will just get up and leave .. asking for nothing .
I didnt even know Trungpa when i first watched this video but i was very impress by the way he absorb all and leave ..
Spiritedbuddha 2 years ago 3
To spiritedbudha,
Krishnamurty is beyond any tradition, he is true Budha himself, though he would be probably offended to here that.
if you are true budhist you should know the name of Nagarjuna II C. BC.
His ideas come close to those of KM, why I did not put it otherway, because truth has not time. KM is close to Zen Budhism or Zen Budhism is close to Krishnamurty but there is a little nuance:
KM denies orgenized religions or even personal gurus 100%.
Zen says: destroy image of Budha when
tenellifranco 2 years ago
cont. when you become attached to it.
KM says: why one should become attached to a teaching while one can discover the truth oneself.
All the great spiritual leaders like Budha, Jesus achieved great insight but failed to unsderstand that so called "enlightment" can be experienced only through personal understanding, true meditation that is natural thing and not a tradition in effort.
tenellifranco 2 years ago 2
Perhaps their stundents failed to understand it.
tamedmind 2 years ago 6
@tenellifranco Even then you cant really talk about a experience because their can only be an expierience when their is a experiencer. The one that can experience can only be a ME (or ego). The same ego that prevents entlightement..If the mind is really still their is no center and certainly no one who can experience.
oggfish 1 year ago
@oggfish agreed:). The question lies if this experience can be tought by a guru, or by any orgenised religion? the answere is no, right? I think that some people like Juddu have great spiritual talent and they can inspire or lead us towards the truth but never can they uncondition us, it's our "job"
tenellifranco 1 year ago
@tenellifranco yeah, words are never `IT`. Experience is really the "wrong" word in what you want to point out. It really is a instant insight without any experience. The same counts for "spiritual talent", that doenst exist in my opinion. Its our natural state. Jiddu never was out of that state througout childhood but it has nothing to do with talent. When you live in that state you have the power to point it out to others and be a "master" of using words aswell. Seeing their use instantly.
oggfish 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
k had him in tears, unknown to the truth of it all
kaneiles20 2 years ago
this series is a true gem. Thank you for posting it.
luminosaye 2 years ago
Indeed - try to watch this while not judging the participants - they know what they are doing; do you?
mattrussell2 2 years ago 13
It's funny to see the comments on Trungpa allegedly being under the influence. It's also funny to see the comments on presumed power (im)balance between the two. What is most funny to me in this is that the people who comments talk about their own perspective on the "me's" talking in this video.
The words used are only metaphors. Since the method is negation, K obviously needs a lot of words. What is, is only one. What is not, are many many things (hence the "and so on" K often uses)
wimdejonge 2 years ago 4
The whole answer and no solution which we are bound to. I thought the core of his speech was great. wonder what he'd say about today's society tho.
probably: am i talking to a brick wall????
Joaturner 2 years ago
this is an extraordinaty conversation between two great minds... i feel lucky to have come across this video
nodrarb140 2 years ago 3
K is a lively fellow for his age
dwaynedibbly 2 years ago 2
what is the point of all that talking?
If it is noise or sound or a bird, it does not matter, ignore it, go back to your breath, and finished
ruzickaw 2 years ago
A wonderful thought. Such a shame to say so.
turbosamvara 2 years ago
I very much appreciated the opportunity to see this video but found it a huge disappointment. K rambles on without making a connection, and CTR just lets the ball drop. My gut says there is something off about this.
JasonLeslie1 2 years ago
why so agressive? Gilgamesh, we are trying to hear, learn but your comment is.....sounds like an ultra conservative and despective approach.....
rucia60 2 years ago
It is too bad that Chogyam was not able to speak, it was a monologue in front of a mirror, being Chogyam the mirror.....
rucia60 2 years ago 4
Chogyam must have been shit-drunk, as he often was :-P
Gilgamesh149 2 years ago
hahaah!
CT2507 2 years ago
What a great meeting of two great beings. Im glad to have the possibility to see that. Thanks for posting it.
parabits 2 years ago 3
ctr is very respectful of the clearly older k. all of k's questions come from his "me" mind...
toltekatl 2 years ago
...and this idia ? where it comme from;-) warm regards.
talktokourosh 2 years ago
i'm sorry. i don't know what you mean by idia.
toltekatl 2 years ago
hi, dear sir, you said: (all of k`s questions come from his "me" mind) that is your idia or your opinion, never mind what you call it. so, if i may, i asked you : where it come from? come it from your "me" mind so? best regards.
talktokourosh 2 years ago
k continuously tells ctr that all of these things (spirituality, meditation, searching, etc...) come from the "me" (mind) which he spoke of in the previous parts to this video.
i was simply pointing out that k's questions come from the me/mind too. i love both k and ctr. i think k wouldn't let ctr speak as much and went on and on. i kind of felt like ctr looked in the video.
that's all kind sir...
toltekatl 2 years ago 2
There is the mind; which is all of the hemisphere's and different lobes of the brain, as one instrument.
There is the frontal lobe of the cerebrum, the areas of the brain that hold short and long term memory. That combination is responsible for Ego, the me. Ego's food is thought images (abstracted from sense observation); and its digestive process is thinking (to compare, contrast, criticize, justify, and conclude).
dougmarkham 2 years ago
A meeting of two awakened beings. I really enjoyed the talk. Chogyam's silence does not denote confusion. He is receptive to an equal.
norrisonthespot 2 years ago 2
3:45: Trungpa, roused from a restful slumber.
no2mro2 2 years ago 5
hahaha...oh god! Thanks for that laugh.
fireplug111 2 years ago
K's last words: "Is that enough?"
CTR's last words: "I think we have covered it."
LMAO!!
hceggeberth 2 years ago 5
does EverLivingFire work for nike?
juanpolar 2 years ago 4
Fantastic little talk this was. Many Trungpa devotees here seem to want to rag on Krishnamurti for stealing the show but understand that K was introducing something completely new to him so naturally he needed to listen and absorb all that was being said. I'm sure if they would have engaged in many conversations throughout their lives there would have been much more dialog between them anyway. Regardless this was a great session. Thanks for posting.
0hmprakash 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
murti sucks. damn. what was new? what a ham! this is all cheap philosophy. maybe even nihlism. i looked up Murti AND Trungpa in STRIPPING THE GURU, both have a damning biography. Look at the tree with a free mind: wow, how original. dude. YOU DO HAVE TO PRACTICE and train the mind just like the body if you want peak performance. only in theory can you JUST DO IT.
EverLivingFire 2 years ago
Yes you can, abandon effort, free your mind.
Remember: infinite patience brings immediate results......
ftralves 2 years ago 2
krishnamurti hurts me. talks too much. says very little. though what he says has value
atheoussplendor 3 years ago 9
That's one hell of a comb-over! Exquisite! Beyond any of the T.v. preachers I've seen so far. I will follow any man's teaching based on the strength of their comb-over alone, and Krishnamurti's is the best ever!
rarjungle 3 years ago 4
I love how easily I can view things of this nature.
mellowmark1 3 years ago
By seeing the fact that during this dialogue both never come to a point of real communication (!), i see that the problem of transmission, wich is one of the crucial point of this dialogue, this problem is a fire question! a the end of it, it must be no one anymore, no gradual path, no direct transformation, but something else, free from spirituality, free from materialism, beyond tradition (Trungpa) and beyond modernity (krishnamurti), wonderful time to see what never happens before!
sandro003 3 years ago 3