In 1850, the LDS Mormon Church went to Hawaii and converted 4,000 Hawaiians. Many of these Hawaiians wanted to come back to Utah, to the new Zion. 30 years later with the "white and delightsome" skin doctrine and the "cursed dark" skin scriptures, from the BOM, the Mormons finally kicked them out Salt Lake City in 1881. These Hawaiians lived 65 miles west of SLC, in the middle of the inhospitable Utah West Desert, known as Iosepa(named for Joseph, Joseph Smith).
You people are ruining the spirit of this video.The spirit of these people talking freely about their testimonies and their feelings of related and love one another as the Savior said.
Has it really been 30 years since the Carter administration threatened to revoke the LDS churches and other organisations charitable tax exempt status' unless they stopped practicing organisational racial discrimination? How time flies...
@GaryKColeman - Why would I have documentation when it is freely available to all. If you are a US citizen? Go take a look for yourself! I'm not hear to hold peoples hands and do the work for them. Look it up in the US Federal Archives... it's under The Administration of U.S. President Jimmy Carter (1976-1980).
You claimed that "the Carter administration threatened to revoke the LDS churches...charitable tax exempt status...." But when challenged, you back down saying "Why would I have documentation...." I agree, why would you have documentation of something that never existed?
You are smart to let others "Look it up in the US Federal Archives." It saves you the embarassment of admitting that you cannot backup your statement.
@GaryKColeman Stop whining Gary! Why would I need to keep this information? It is in the public domain. Not to possess data is not backing down. If you want to find out something for YOURSELF.. then YOU GO and FIND THE INFORMATION. You just might believe it then. I've told you where to go. If you can't navigate the Archives - ASK an administrator - I DID, they helped me!
@Cheshu1 You're merely avoiding the questions with our revisionist history. How many slaves did he southern Christians have? how long after they were freed did it take to gain legal rights? What did Christians do to free isrealites from baylonian slavery? Why do you continue to avoid the questions? Because their devastating to your revisionist history.
@Cheshu1 Tell us how many slaves the christian south had. Tell us how many decades before the freed slaves where actually given legal rights, not to mention equality. Tell us what Christians did to free the enslaved Israelite in Babylon.
@Cheshu1 In 1488, Pope Innocent VIII accepted the gift of 100 slaves from Ferdinand II of Aragon, and distributed those slaves to his cardinals and the Roman nobility.[83].
But hey, just keep denying that it was christians who created African slavery IN THE FIRST PLACE.
@humanistheart - References to slavery appear in the ancient Babylonian code of Hammurabi. Its form and nature varied greatly in ancient society. It seems to have been common in the Tigris-Euphrates civilizations and in ancient Persia. In ancient Egypt slave labor was used in building temples and pyramids. The institution was familiar to the ancient Hebrews, according to passages in the OT Bible. That'll be pre-christian!
@54v115 If you'll read them, the comments I left was specific to African slavery; specifically justified through race. No one's saying Christians invented slavery, just the African slave trade. This was pointed out because the moron cheshu wanted to say mormons were racist, ignoring christians own history.
@Cheshu1 The papal pronouncements against slavery in the 15th and 16th centuries sought to regulate particular abuses, but they did not deny Spain and Portugal the right to engage in the trade itself. Thus, although the Church mitigated the effects of slavery in Latin America, it also legitimized it both at the beginning and for hundreds of years afterwards.
@Cheshu1 Ten black African slaves were presented to Martin in 1441 by Prince Henry of Portugal.[76] Martin supported colonial expansion.[77] Davidson (1961) argues that Martin's injunction against slavery was not a condemnation of slavery itself but rather it was driven through fear of "infidel power".[78]
@Cheshu1 The papal bull of excommunication issued to the Genoese merchants of Caffa related to the buying and selling of Christians but has been considered ineffectual as prior injunctions against the Venetians, including the Laws of Gazaria, made allowances for the sale of both Christian and Muslim slaves.[75]
@Cheshu1 Pope Martin V authorized a crusade against Africa in 1418 and this coupled with a later bull (1441) sanctioned the Portuguese trade in African slaves.[71] In March 1425 a bull was issued that threatened excommunication for any Christian slave dealers and ordered Jews to wear a "badge of infamy" to deter, in part, the buying of Christians.[72] In June 1425 Martin anathematized those who sold Christian slaves to Muslims.[73]
@Cheshu1 I never quoted lenin. More lies. Apparently you don't realize that lying gets you know where when people can merely check what has been written.
@Cheshu1 You're merely trying to use Mormon racism against them, while simultaneously ignoring your own religions hand in oppressing blacks for centuries.
Give one quote from a christian that tried to stop Israelite enslavement in Babylon.
@Cheshu1 No, you're not sorry. And if you truly think that Christians being the cause of african slavery is a revision of history, look into it.
And stop avoiding the question, what were Christians doing when isreal was enslaved by Babylon. And why do you want some credit for helping end slavery when Christians created it in the first place?
Why would any christian be stupid enough to think that Smith was more racist than their version of christianity, when they all participated in creating african slavery in the first place?
@Cheshu1 "He has a right to ask tough questions. "
Then I'm curious why you refuse to answer those questions. Again, where was christianity during the Babylonian captivity? Why is it that you want credit for helping end slavery when it was christians who created the problem in the first place? Why ignore the mass genocides of christian history?
"Jesus ignored the mockers"
Actually he lost his temper and threw hissy fits over them several times.
@Cheshu1 You've insulted me numerous times, and it's all in writing. Unless you've gone back and deleted most of your comments. You realize lying about what you typed doesn't work when it's all saved don't you? Apparently not.
@Cheshu1 We notice again the total lack of Christians reversing slavery in Babylon. Meanwhile they murder houndreds of millions in the crusades, the 30 years war, th witch hunts, numerous holy wars, African slavery, the genocides of the native Americans, the holocaust, and so on. Now cheshu wishes to ignore all those things.
@Cheshu1 How uninteresting that Cheshu continues to avoid the issues. She's yet to tell us why it is that mormons are somehow worse than her version of christianity when it was mainstream Christians that enslaved blacks in the first place, and who kept them from legal rights long after the abolition of slavery. Of cousrse, she refuses to address that because she knows mainstream Christians were no less racist, and actual facts would interfere with her bias.
@Cheshu1 "The atheist are self absorbed, elitist and not interested in risking their lives to free others,"
Oh, then how do you explain the countries with the most women, and the most ethnic members of parliament and other government officials are all atheist countries? Hmm?
And you still REFUSE to tell us, why it is you think some Christians FINALLY helping to end black slavery, but not giving them legal rights afterward, undoes the centuries of Christians enforced black slavery.
@Cheshu1 Stalin created a cult of personality that worshiped him as s demi-god. When there's a god involved, it's not A-theism now is it? But don't let facts stop you.
@Cheshu1 You have completely ignored the centuries that Christians enslaved Africans. Why is it you want kudo's for helping to end something Christians were responsible for in the first place?
However, of course you will ignore these hard facts and you still have not shared with us any christian contributions for ending slavery in Babylon.
@Cheshu1 You are such a ridiculous liar. Why do you avoid the obvious answer. The Christians didn't care about he enslavement of the Israelite's in Babylon.
've asked you repeatedly to tell us what Christians did to stop slavery in Babylon. And you REFUSE to answer. Or to tell us why some Christians helping to stop slavery counters the fact that it was Christians who enslaved in the first place. It's like purposely shooting a child then wanting credit for rushing it to the hospital.
@Cheshu1 2) Christians who were the ones enslaving in the first place. You just want to have your cake and eat it too. Christians cause centuries of suffering and oppression, and then some finally help to end it, and you want to just ignore the suffering they caused.
@Cheshu1 1) Stalin installed a cult of personality that required people to hang pictures of them in their homes and pray to him like a god. When you start talking gods, it's theism, not atheism.
"I asked you to tell us what the atheist did to contribute to ending slavery during 1800s in USA,"
I've asked you repeatedly to tell us what Christians did to stop slavery in Babylon. And you REFUSE to answer. Or to tell us why some Christians helping to stop slavery counters the fact that it was
@Cheshu1 Again you confuse atheism with communism, in your attempt to avoid the questions and points. Why is it you want to celebrate Christians for helping end the slavery that christians were responcible in the first place? How is fixing the mistakes of their own religious brethren, finally after centuries, somehow make up for the Christians that enslaved the black people in the first place? Why do you refuse to answer this question?
@Cheshu1 also for us disowning polygamy now, it is true, because we cant have two laws condemning each other.. the 12th article of faith states; We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. and even when mormons practice polygamy(before it was outlawed), we believe less than 5% even practiced it.. and the 1800s.. it wasnt unpopular for teenagers to get married, and if they did, they had the consent of their parents
@Cheshu1 getting a bit angry arent we? so if Joseph had such a deceiving spirit.. i guess the father of Samuel also had a deceiving spirit.. same with Abraham(the father of many nations) and Jacob and Gideon, they too were deceivers..without a prophet, what would you know what to do? when did Jesus say that there shouldnt ever be prophets or apostles after his death? what does Ephesians 4: 11-14 say?
@Cheshu1 haha, see.. there, you said it yourself.. the prophets of the bible messed up eh.. is that what you are trying to say right? or were they ordained by God? hmmmm? lets think about that one shall we? you cant seem to find any where in the bible, of a polygamist being punished or the bible saying the 'wrongness' of it... you find adultery, yes.. but that is when you are Outside of marriage.. same with lust.. you cant understand Jesus words.. you cant even understand the bible
@Cheshu1 haha.. you are quite funny.. so the prophets in the bible that practiced polygamy were false prophets and didnt understand the instruction that the lord gave them? is that what you are saying? haha.. wow, you are quite something now arent you... then trying to turn it around on me saying that i dont understand what they are saying.. coming from a person who hasnt even read the book all the way through..
im not trying to deceive, you just deceive yourself because you dont know the bible.. like i said, when was the last time you actually read all of it?
@Cheshu1 "You know that those who die without the preisthood go to a lesser "kindom" after they die and are the servants of the white mormons." LOL.. that isnt mormon doctrine, it is soooo false, and you probably learned it from an anti-mormon site..(and way to go for ignoring the bible facts i gave you) and what of the whites that were denied the priesthood that had lineiage to africa, and what of the blacks in the Fiji island being granted the priesthood way before 1978? hmm?
@Cheshu1 You have not told us what Christians did to free the Israelite from Babylon. Why do you avoid the question. Please tell, us what where to Christians doing while Israelite were enslaved there.
And, why have you repeatedly ignored the fact that it was Christians doing the enslaving of black people in the first place? Hmm?
@Cheshu1 Quite the opposite, you keep wanting some king of credit for the christians who helped end slavery, but COMPLETELY IGNORE the fact that it was christians who created and maintained that slavery for centuries. I've asked you over and over and over again, why it is you think you should get credit for helping to fix your own misdeeds? And even after they were freed christians still didn't give them equal rights. It was only a step up from what they'd been before the civil war.
@Cheshu1 "the Almighty God of the bible never condoned polygamy." well i guess i mustve interpret the bible wrong.. specially Jacob chapter 2 verse 30: If I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall [have only one wife].. when did Jesus say that there should be no more prophets on the earth after him? what of Ephesians 4:11-15, does that have no meaning as well?
@Cheshu1 wow... when was the last time you actually read the whole bible through? and isnt the gateway to heaven by baptism.. when did we ever deny blacks or anyone the right to be baptized? you cant seem to answer that one.. can you answer why God denied 11 of the 12 tribes of Israel the priesthood? you need to reread the bible. and really look into faith and what it means. God has his reasons does he not? whether we understand them.. women are denied the priesthood, does that make us sexist?
@Cheshu1 lol, ive have given you many great answers and what do you have to say for it.. nothing but the same thing over and over and over.. i really doubt you even looked at half of my answers.. you just repeat yourself.. prejudice is just as ugly and sinful
@Cheshu1 "The Church of England was implicated in slavery. Slaves were owned by the Anglican Church's Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts (SPGFP), which had sugar plantations in the West Indies. When slaves were emancipated by Act of the British Parliament in 1834, the British government paid compensation to slave owners. Among those they paid were the Bishop of Exeter and three business colleagues, who received compensation for 665 slaves."
"The Church of England was implicated in slavery. Slaves were owned by the Anglican Church's Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts (SPGFP), which had sugar plantations in the West Indies. When slaves were emancipated by Act of the British Parliament in 1834, the British government paid compensation to slave owners. Among those they paid were the Bishop of Exeter and three business colleagues, who received compensation for 665 slaves.[25]
@Cheshu1 jefflindsay(dot)com/LDSFAQ/FQRace.shtml if that doesnt make you happy..nothing will..and you blind your own heart with hate and misunderstanding.. God tests people, thats all i can say, whether if you want to except that or not.. that sure aint my problem lol, im done here, i rather speak to a brick wall..maybe if youd open your eyes youd see that the lds church did more than you think they did.. seems like i know more about the bible than you do as well.. have a good one
@Cheshu1 One scholar has estimated that there were at least 60,000,000 slaves in the Roman Empire around the time of Paul.. and what did Paul do for a slave that escaped from his master? he told him to go back to him.. why dont explain that one to me? Christianity of course, was against slavery, but Paul as well as the other Apostles had to make the best of an evil situation. Had they opposed it openly, the Church would have been destroyed in short order.
@Cheshu1 And that was different from mainstream christians, how? You keep trying to levy these issues at mormons, when all those issues exist in your own version of christianity as well.
The God of the Bible, who is our God and our Heavenly Father, operates out of infinite love for mankind. His ways truly are just and fair, for salvation is available to all who will accept it, regardless of race or gender.
@xGoliathOnlinex Eh, I'm not sure how 'fair' that is actually. Think about it, no matter who you are or what you've done you can get 'salvation' just by believing and accepting a certain belief system? If that were true, it's very unfair to good people, and those of us who rely on logic, reason, and facts.
@humanistheart God will know everyone's heart and will judge perfectly.. look further into the mormons afterlife views youll see that there are three different kingdoms..doesnt this prove his perfectness and true love for each one of us..not everyone will live with God, but receive a glory and a happiness beyond measure..and higher the kingdom the greater the happiness; the glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion and our obedience to the Lord's commandments..check out lds.org
@xGoliathOnlinex "the glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion and our obedience to the Lord's commandments..check out lds.org"
That's much better than your mainstream christian counterparts. It is certainly more just than hell. But basing ones advancement on 'obedience' and faith rather than ethics isn't what I'd call ideal either.
@humanistheart well.. good ethics is in a way obedience isnt it not? that is why our church doesnt go about damning people because they believe in something different than us.. what you do unto others you do unto Christ right?
@xGoliathOnlinex "well.. good ethics is in a way obedience isnt it not?" No, not at all. Good ethics is usually the opposite. If ethics was merely doing what one was told, we'd still have african slavery and women wouldn't have any legal rights.
well yeh i agree.. and there is a limited amount humans can learn in a life time(and people change alot through out time).. but we dont believe we'll stop(progressing and learning) in this life.. i mean, no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven.. none. nothing. no one. so there will be.. there has to be.. a time after death where people will have time to progress up to becoming christ-like.. i mean, how long is eternity? whats the rush?
The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of God’s curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21). In contrast, the Bible teaches that God "made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26, KJV), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favoritism (James 2:1).
Please explain why the Mormon bible is so different?
@xGoliathOnlinex I was told once you died in the mormon faith that there was no progressing. You get put where your most comfortable was a way of describing it. Was that inaccurate information?
"a time after death where people will have time to progress up to becoming christ-like.. "
Jesus wasn't exactly a great role model. Again, I question the standard of being 'christ-like' as a positive or fair thing.
@humanistheart ah, he was explaining after we get set to our glories.. i was talking before we get set to our glories/kingdoms.. and im sure you could learn more while in the different glories, but you cant up and go into the next higher glory after youve been set.. so who in your opinion is a better role model than Christ if ya dont mind me asking? and why was he not a great role model?
@humanistheart well after we die we go to the spirit world, so that people that never got to learn of Christ fairly on earth will get to do so(also to learn and progress), and have the choice to except him or not.. once everyone has lived and has been taught we are then resurrected then there will be the judgement and then well be set to our glories accordingly
@xGoliathOnlinex Well, that's more fair. I'll grant you that. Of all the afterlife's people currently believe in I'd put that at a close 2nd. Still, what was jesus' purpose then?
@xGoliathOnlinex I don't know, I'd have to think on that. Ghandi was pretty good, but everyone in the past was set in their culture and time period, thus will most likely be behind us today in morals.
Well, first of all calling him a 'christ' is misleading; he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies so he's not a christ. But anyway, he stole, attacked people, was really rude to his followers, broke the laws and was just kind of an ass.
In fact, Latter-day Saints know that God is much fairer than most of our other Christian friends know, for He has even provided a way for those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus Christ to learn of the Gospel and be able to accept a vicarious baptism done for those who have already died.
@xGoliathOnlinex At least with the LDS he doesn't torture you for all eternity though. They have a much better afterlife concept than mainstream christians.
Though perfectly fair, His ways are often misunderstood by humans who see only a tiny part of the big picture. To us, some of His ways seem unfair. But this is nothing unique to Mormonism, but has been a part of Biblical history for thousands of years.
For example, the priesthood was initially restricted to those who were members of the tribe of Levi. There were 11 other tribes among the Israelites - was it unfair that only one tribe could have the priesthood? And what about the 99.99% of the world then that weren't Hebrew?
Deuteronomy 23 gives further information about restrictions on membership in the Lord's congregation. Bastard's were excluded, as well as their descendants, even to their tenth generation (Deut. 23:2). And those who had the misfortune of having ancestors from the nearby Ammonites or Moabites up to 10 generations ago were excluded (Deut. 23:3-4). What's fair about that?
But then, in the Book of Ruth, we read that the Lord made an exception for Ruth, a Moabite, who was accepted into the congregation and got to be one of the ancestors of Jesus Christ. This was wonderful for Ruth, but was it fair to the other Moabites who were excluded for many generations?
Human sensibilities about fairness may be offended by some of the Lord's dealings, but the scriptures affirm -as does the personal experience of millions -that we can trust Him as the true example of love and kindness.The details of who gets what responsibility or privilege right now are irrelevant compared to the big issue:who gets eternal life?And only the fullness of the Gospel, as revealed to modern LDS prophets, offers insight into just how remarkably fair and just the Lord is in this mattr
the word nigger was not always considered derogatory, because it then denoted “black-skinned”, a common Anglophone usage. Nineteenth-century English (language) literature features usages of nigger without racist connotation, e.g. the Joseph Conrad novella The Nigger of the 'Narcissus' (1897). Moreover, Charles Dickens and Mark Twain created characters who used the word as contemporary usage
1800s and 1900s are completely different to now. like i said.. you know nothing of history
Blacks have souls (an item that others didn’t necessarily believe) and that they are a product of their environment. Given an equal environment they would be on the same level as whites.
1842: Joseph Smith Writes in His Personal Journal that Slaves Should be Set Free
He writes that the slaves owned by Mormons should be brought “into a free country and set …free– Educate them and give them equal rights.” [30 Dec. 1842 Joseph Smith Journal as quoted in Neither White Nor Black, Bush and Mauss (Signature Books, 1984), p. 62]
1833: W.W. Phelps publishes a controversial editorial in the Evening and Morning Star titled “Free People of Color.” It outlines procedures for the migration of free blacks to Missouri. Missouri is a slave state that beat any free black crossing into or out of Missouri with 10lashes on his or her bare back. The Missourians react very negatively to the editorial and reprint part of it in the St. Louis newspapers. This spark leads to violence against the Mormons
@Cheshu1 meh, you wouldnt know what our prophets say except for what your anti-momon sites like to spoon feed you.. wouldnt you agree that prejudice is just the same as racism? youll find alot of prophets expressing their love towards black people even since the beginning days of this church all the way back to prophet joseph smith.. you probably didnt know that he tried to run for president in 1844 on an anti-slavery platform
@Cheshu1 well no matter what you can try to come up with, nothing can discredit what the spirit has testified to me.. and through the holy ghost i know that this church is the one and only true church on the earth.. and any man who judges unfair like towards another(their race or even sins you think they committed) will have that against them at their judgement.. whether they are apart of this church or not.. but consider as well that there is forgiveness and Christ taught that as well :)
@Cheshu1 im not trying to distort the truth.. man is imperfect and we've always believed that. and that in the next life, whatever we dont achieve in this one, we will in the next.. so even if you dont have the priesthood now, its not like its the end of the world for ya.. ;)
@Cheshu1 if you actually look into our church, we have always invited blacks into the church since the beginning. blacklds(dot)org/history.. you know nothing of history.. if you did maybe you would know that during the civil war era, that was around the time that mormons were forced off their land to move to utah during that time.. through fear and misunderstanding of our church, lots of innocent died because of that.. but you could careless bout that eh.. since 'we're a bunch of bigots'
I love this church and i love everyone in it and out of it, no matter what faith or race you are :] and i love this Country even with its ugly history of its slavery and racism towards others im sure glad that i live in a time where most of that is behind us Americans and that we are better people than that..
Joseph Smith called african americans n-ggers. Why do you trust anything he says? You trust the things that a person says when that person calls people n-ggers? And calls little children and young women n-ggers. And you trust what he says? Please become a human being. And please try googling a little more.
I don't know if you have any idea how many mormons a mormon would come to know over a period of 40 years but we are talking several 1000 and I never met a racist mormon or heard a racist comment made by a member EVER. Now how does this happen in a church that is supposed to be so racist and steeped in history of racism? Why don't you look up the other side of what JS and B.Y. said.
"Break off the shackles of the poor black man and hire him to labor like other human beings." (History of the Church 5:209)
Parley P. Pratt (Apostle) said in 1855: "I love a man without regard to his country, or where he was brought up, without reference to color or nation. I love a man that loves truth." (Journal of Discourses, 3:182)
hahaha most of those scriptures that are quoted are from the bible, written almost 2000 years ago, but they only became valid as of 1978, hahaha. let's see if personal conviction can explain that.
@painlessreborn Sorry, I actually know my religion and it's people, thus everything you say is nothing more than the lying negative fantasy's of your own mind. We don't look at race, we look at people. Our religion is made up of all kinds of people & races. There is not & never has been "racial subjugation" by mormons. Even with the Priesthood ban, people who knew us, knew we weren't racist. So highly recommend you learn something for a change, rather than living in bigotry & ignorance.
@leeuniverse Youre kidding right, are you that brainwashed that you can't see the truth. Countless Mormon preacher have stood up and said that anyone with dark skin is cursed and in turn decietful and devious and unworthy of a place in heaven unless they are a priest. This is a organization that would not accept a black man ( although I don't know why a black person would consider this) until 1973, no blacks in leadership positions within the tomfoolery of a religion, which was founded by racist
@Lindseyadam You misrepresent the facts. I've been dealing with anti-mormons like you for years, and I know every single good and bad statement uttered by a mormon on this issue, and you take a little truth and use it to tell great lies about Mormonism. Joseph Smith and early saints were Abolitionists, even being driven from some of the places they were BECAUSE of that, and he even ordained a couple of Black Africans to the priesthood. You know nothing about what you are talking about.
@Lindseyadam Blacks were never kept from joining the church. Joseph Smith had several close black friends. There was a black man called to be a seventy (high position in the church) in 1836. Brigham Young passed laws requiring those who had slaves to educate them and that if a slave was poorly treated they would be set free. I didn't live back then but I know that I have never met a racist mormon in my 40years of being a member.
@peaceliberty4all Have you ever read the writings of Bringham Yound and Joseph Smith, their essays contain the word nigger more times than a KKK pamphlet. I'm not saying everyone associated with the religion is racist but if you are following the principles and teachings of someone who is misguided and racist what does that say about you.
@Lindseyadam ":the word nigger was not always considered derogatory, because it then denoted “black-skinned By the 1900s, nigger had become a pejorative word." Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were both dead by the 1900's and they lived at a time when there was no such thing as politically correct.Why don't you click on Alex Boye's clip on the right and C how a black man feels about the church.He is well aware of what was said in the past and the fact that the blacks didn't have the priesthood
@peaceliberty4all No offense sir but that word in my opinion as a Black Man was derogatory then and still is today, and Alex Boye's story is nice but at the same time he must really be misinformed about the history of the Mormon church. I respect everyones religion but I just don't believe that a black person should ever be a part of the Mormon church because to accept the religion means that you have to in some way agree with the philosophies of Smith and Young
@peaceliberty4all and even if the church has shifted their thinking I have to wonder why, was it to increase membership and status, or was it really a realization that what was going on was wrong. I can't aswer that questions so in no way can I support blacks joining that church.
@leeuniverse(cont) where a prophet or better yet a profit can miracoulously have an epiphany and say that blacks people( really just our money and a chance for increased membership) are welcome with open arms. Stop it with the bullshit, if the KKK decided to change their course would you join the Klan also? A religion founded upon ignorance and the greed of a few cunning individuals to manipulate and profit from other niavete and stupidity.
@Lindseyadam You know nothing about the LDS religion to think it's structured in a way that it's leadership at any level do what they do for "money". It's the only religion structured to prevent that. If you wish to learn the actual facts on that, we can have a private discussion. Mormonism is nothing close to the KKK. Even when I left the Church for primarily this issue, I wasn't that ignorant. Unlike you, I actually knew the Church. Properly inform yourself, before opening your mouth.
@painlessreborn You may have known me somewhat when I was a mormon, or leaving & was anti-mormon etc., but you don't know me now. You don't know what I know and have seen. You simply have been deceived onto another path. Me, I don't hide anything of myself or otherwise. I know exactly my own faults and weaknesses, and I also know my strengths. Knowing truth and right over all other ideology's is one of my strengths. I have both the necessary vast experience & knowledge to be sure.
@painlessreborn I DID turn Atheist/Agnostic. But never felt "betrayed". I just considered it another man-made religion that couldn't be true. But, I was mistaken. I wasn't patient, humble, nor teachable. But, a few years later after living in the world, I was ready to study again to see if there was a "true" Church on the earth. I eliminated all other religions as possibly valid, & again studied mormonism, focusing on comparing anti-mormonism with LDS scholarship, & study the issues I had.
@painlessreborn That friend later ordained me an Elder when I came back, so it wasn't a total loss. Ha ha! You don't know a thing about me. A great deal of effort has gone into knowing what I know, & experiencing what I've experienced, so I could "objectively" make wise and righteous judgments and be a good person. I have no interest whatsoever in man-made religion, even contempt for it, so don't presume you can judge my character simply because of your own ignorance of the subject matter.
@painlessreborn Anti-mormon fantasy's of people is not reality. I have no family, so no I didn't return to the Church because of "pressure" from anyone. I was perfectly happy being an Atheist & against religion. But, I was however strongly interested in the actual truth of things, not just my current judgments, thus I kept learning when I was ready to. Hardly any friends knew I was inactive, save one whom I was supposed to learn to fly from, my arrogance and judgmentalism stopped that.
@painlessreborn Of course you don't believe what I said, you rely on your own feeble mortal logic to discern things which are spiritual and can only be learned through sincere and earnest prayer to Our Heavenly Father. And the Lord doesn't do anything cause He's worried about the so-called Government coming down on His work. He does what He wants when He wants....This is HIS Church He knows what needs to be done
ALL Races are welcome in Our Fathers House!! I don't question Our Savior about things He puposely hasn't given us answers to, YET.
The Lord decided that in "78" it was time for Our african brothers to recieve the Priesthood....it's that simple. No need to bicker just accept His timing, He's perfect and does everything for a reason. We'll know everything when this test is all over, till then TRUST HIM....I Know I Do
i don't think that lds church members are any more racist or non-racist than any other group of people.
i do think it is strange that the black/african people in the lds faith now can somehow justify the fact that the church OUTRIGHT AVOIDED them up until 1978. ask anyone who was a missionary then and, if they tell you the truth, they were instructed to determine if there was any african in a person's geneology before trying to baptise them. certainly, they did not want to marry them either.
@knowtheonetruegospel The Church did not "outright avoid" them. Obviously in areas with large populations there needs to be Priesthood leadership, thus the Gospel yes wasn't actively preached in those areas, i.e. Africa. They always were allowed to be members of the Church, not segregated either. Blacks of all other races, India, Islands, Central/South America, etc. WERE given the priesthood, if they were not of African decent. The ban was because of the racism in the world, not the Church.
@leeuniverse your logic makes no sense. the CHURCH banned blacks from priesthood and yet you say it wasn't hte church being racist? black people were not given priesthood or allowed to enter the temple until 1978. true or not??
“But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and BLACK just like the Devil" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332)
@knowtheonetruegospel Was Christ racist when he "banned" non-Jews from being taught the Gospel, and it taking Peter AFTER Christ's death to get a Revelation to then take the Gospel to them? Was the Priesthood being restricted to certain "lineages/tribes" also racist by Moses etc.? Likewise the Church is not "sexist" simply because women are not given the Priesthood. Bigotry is based on behaviors, attitudes, etc., not simply a policy.
@leeuniverse Ehhh! Wrong! Racism has everything to do with RACE! (DUHHHH) "African descent" is RACE!! Racism and sexism (although both abhorrent) are different things. All women might be subordinated and denied priesthood. Yet, the wives of WHITE men had husbands who held the priesthood. Wives of AFRICAN descent men (since you refuse to use the word BLACK) didn't have husbands who held the priesthood and they could NOT enter the temple. What could possibly be MORE racist than that??
@knowtheonetruegospel Temple Ordinances are a "family" affair. The woman holds the Priesthood in Temple Covenant as a Priestess to God with the man Priest. That is the reason African woman were not allowed to go to the Temple. As to your "redefining" Racism, I always see this from anti-mormons. When you lose to the facts, you then have to redefine terms. I bet before talking to me you didn't even know the ban only applied to those of African decent did you? Racism has certain "traits"....
@knowtheonetruegospel No one claims (save liberals) that the Boy Scouts are sexist or homophobes.... No one claims ladies night at bars are sexist, no one claims that the NAACP or other "black groups" are racist simply because they have black only clubs, etc. etc. Racism is "intent" and "attitude". Not simply by classification characteristics, such as African or Lineage.
@knowtheonetruegospel If the Church was actually racist against "blacks" which is what racism applies to, or other races, such as Asians, etc., then the Church would have banned ALL "blacks" from the Priesthood, & it wouldn't have banned whites who had African lineage from the Priesthood. I know you are having the shakes, because your brain has been on "hate mormons" mode forever, but these are the FULL facts. A policy does not make racism, the attitudes behind it & it's application does.
@knowtheonetruegospel As to your question NOT TRUE. "blacks" were not banned from the Priesthood, those of African lineage were. Even whites were not given the Priesthood. Blacks of other races WERE given the Priesthood. India, Central/South America, the Islands, etc. And your quote by Brigham Young he's refering to ones "spirit", not skin color. Or are you ignorant of the fact that "black" has been used to symbolize evil, while white has been used to symbolize good in matters of faith?
@leeuniverse no, i'm not ignorant of that at all. BLACK/darkness in the English language has a long history of connatations with evil, etc. however, are you ignorant to the fact that you are skimming the obvious point here? ALL AFRICANS/AFRICAN DESCENDENTS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO INTO THE LDS PRIESTHOOD OR ALLOWED TO ENTER THE TEMPLE.
you say "even whites were not given the priesthood" as though that had anything to do with their RACE! certain INDIVIDUALS who were white, not ALL WHITES.
@knowtheonetruegospel I'm not "skimming" any issue at all..... If the ban was not about racism from the Church itself. Christ and Moses weren't racist either, yet they did the same exact thing. "Banning" a group or groups from something. And I already explained to you, "blacks" were not banned, a particular lineage was, including WHITES who were of that lineage.
@knowtheonetruegospel Let me be clear. Racism has certain characteristics. Those characteristics did not exist in the Church. Did some "individuals" say some wrong things, or misrepresented as saying wrong things, yes. But, that's not the Church itself. When I first joined this Church, I had been in many churches by that time, including black churches, & this was pre-1978. The Church was so non-racist in it's teachings & behaviors, I didn't even know of the ban until it was removed.
@knowtheonetruegospel Let me be even more clear.... I once left the Church myself primarily over this issue, but I was ignorant of scriptures, of the Churches actual full history, etc. Once I decided to find out the actual truth of things, that's when I learned that the Church wasn't actually racist, that it was a policy per the Lords Will. It's the same reason the scouts are not sexist because they don't allow females to be scouts. A policy doesn't equate to an actual evil or wrong.
@knowtheonetruegospel I learned, that the clear an unequivical reason for the ban, was because of the sins of the world itself. God didn't want the Church nor the Priesthood from being destroyed because of racism. The Church already had suffered some being driven from some of the states they were driven from because the Mormons were Abolitionists, and had a large voting block, thus the bigoted anti's drove them out and killed them. Thus, where did the actual "bigotry" reside? In non-mormons.
@leeuniverse my goodness, that logic makes no sense. bc others were racists & the lds were abolitionist, God said Africans & all African-descended peoples could not hold the priesthood or enter the temple? there isn't even logic there at all!
by the way, the abolition of slavery happened back in the 19th century. why would Africans be banned from priesthood and the temple until 1978--darn near the 21st CENTURY then??
Mormons are NOT "Racist". They just believe the Mormon "GOD" Loves them more than persons of "Any" color other than "white". But the Mormon "God" Really had it out for People of African descent for some "reason". And Why was it only the Mormon Church that got this Message from God that "Colored Folks" Shouldn't be able to participate in "certain" parts of the church. The Mormon Church is a off-shoot of Christianity w/ a touch of "Let's just make up shit as we go and Say "God " said it."
Mormons believe that God cursed Cain with dark skin and a flat nose. However the mark was set upon Cain BEFORE the flood. In the flood perished all but Noah,his wife,3 sons and their wives. If the curse upon Cain was dark skin, the only way for the race to survive was for Noah to be a direct decendent to Cain. Noah's geneologly didn't come from Cain. It came from Seth.
Genesis 5:3,6-29,30-32. 1 Chronicles 1:1-4.Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. --Jesus Matt 22:29
@JSeely218 Ye do err, not knowing mormonism. Some in history promoting the Protestant Mark of Cain theory doesn't mean that was the official reason for the ban. A few presidency's yes stated such, but the consitent and always official reason for the ban was "we don't know", only that it was to be restricted until God said otherwise. Also, you mistake the theory, it didn't work like you mention. But, we would agree, some mormons in history misapplied ideas in trying to explain "why" the ban.
Congrats, I know as you live the gospel you will see how much it will bless your life. I've been a member of the Church for 6 years, and the blessing I have received are numberless, I have received so many that it's hard to count them. I know the Lord will bless you and the he is proud of you for your decision.
@ireton3 Because such people actually study the history and know the people and the religion, and know very well that such things are misrepresentations by anti-mormons, not the full and accurate history. They were not labeled "children of satan" by the Church. A couple of people in history stating or applying something similar doesn't make the Church. It also never "ostracized" them. In fact, one of the reasons they were kicked out of a couple of states is because they were abolitionists.
@JesseCavalli Please contact me through PM, and I'd be happy to discuss anything with you. I have a strongly diverse background and experience, thus can more fully and accurately answer basically anything you want to know.
Joseph Smith ran for President with a platform that included the abolition of slavery. Elijah Abel (a black man) was ordained to the LDS priesthood on March 3, 1836. Walker Lewis (a black man) was ordained to the LDS priesthood in 1843. There are others as well who received the priesthood prior to the 1970s (I just don't have the names offhand), and there has NEVER been a restriction on membership/baptism/eternal-rewards based on skin color.
The LDS have some appealing aspects which is how they attract new members and these aspects are so strong that people think that this religion must be true, but as is written in the bible.
2 Corinthians 11:14 - And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
@supraken123 You know who else appears as angels? Angels. That people think that verse disproves visits from angels is silly. Find a verse that says "no more angels will ever appear again" and maybe you'll have a point.
@canofsand .. of course.. but Jesus still loves me.. unlike you lot.. don't believe in Jesus... at least not the Jesus of the New testament... tell me why your brain isn't full of shit...
@54v115 Wow. So... you say Jesus doesn't love Mormons, eh? Who taught you that? It certainly wasn't an honest student of the Bible. You've just proven my point.
@canofsand - you are anti christian.. you follow something that sets itself up against Christ.. you follow man and you do things in the name of God which isn't in the interest of God but man, you work against the ordinaces of the Lord and you claim his office of High priest, which you do not have.. you say whatever Jesus did for us.. atoned for our sins on the cross ISn't enough... and you contradict Jesus words on monotheism..so you think God is on your side?...lol..lol...lol JERK!
So Uncle Tom and Aunt Jemima go to these mormon churches to remind themselves that they are cursed animals? Sounds like fun.This is a special kind of craazy
Do you do a testimony about God had many wives, and we are all literal childern, do you belive Jesus had a brother, named Satan, who didn't want the test of the world, do you belive that Jesus, is a God himself, total seperate, and we who live as saints get to become literal Gods and in the highest level of heaven, get to rule over our own planet, do you belive dark skin is a curse, by God but those who live good lives can become white in heaven, do you believe all that too?
This is why Black ppl get teased and ripped on all the time. Blacks are so desperate to be accepted in this world and try to make others happy sooo bad that they give up and convert to something they are not. Face is blacks...the mormons hate you...you will never be a human in their eyes....get over it and move on. You can't watse ur life trying to make friends and shit, you have to love yourselves first before you can be loved by others!
So the logic is that God was a total racist until 1978. Before that, not so much? It can't possibly be that the LDS church was a racist outfit. I wish they would just come real with their shit. Racists and homophobes. The whole religion.
Now they celebrate they day the finally were pressured into acting human by the rest of society. Yet they still pretend it was god's "revelation". Yeah, right. What a crock of shit.
@sketto Think about it " there is no way the church would have survived the Lord knew that" Joseph Smith whom we all know was an abolitionist and he knew it. But the lord knew when the time would be right.The timeing was perfect the church grew from then onwards. I am a Member in N.Ireland and I served my mission in california I wore a t-shirt one day with Michael Jordan on it during 4th of july parade all the black men where calling me bro I did not know why then. but! proud to wear it now
@sketto Sometimes I wish I was a black man! might sound silly to some [but think about it] among your injustice as a people you are the most blessed and gifted people, why do think that is? The church is a revelatory church one tiny example where Joseph Smiths wife [Emma] was cleaning out the spit-toons she approached Joeseph on the matter and revelation speaks the rest. that has always been the way with the church.
Funny thing, every mormon says they KNOW god exists and their god and their church is the right. They KNOW. It's funny because all the people from all the different religions think the same thing. The questions is: who is right? Who is the real god? "God"? Alah? Thor? Buda? Mithra? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Money?
@PrawdaUnia When we say, we "know" that God exists, this does not reflect an intellectual knowledge but rather a deep spiritual experience. I also believe that anybody who is open to it can have that experience.
Funny, Blacks were good enough to pay their tithing, but could not serve the priesthood. Mormonism is the same lie Satan told Eve, repackaged. Nowhere in the Bible did it ever say Blacks were cursed for their skin color. Could it be that God created different races for variety? Just like we have different colors of plants, fruits, vegetables and animals, as well as many different species. Makes more sense than Joseph Smith's ridiculous lies.
Unbelievable how Blacks accepted such garbage from the LDS Church of being discriminated against. Then, all of a sudden a "prophet" had a revelation to allow them to serve the priesthood. How CONVENIENT for getting new members around the world, like Africa, to get more tithe payers. A loving God would never have promoted racism.
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In 1850, the LDS Mormon Church went to Hawaii and converted 4,000 Hawaiians. Many of these Hawaiians wanted to come back to Utah, to the new Zion. 30 years later with the "white and delightsome" skin doctrine and the "cursed dark" skin scriptures, from the BOM, the Mormons finally kicked them out Salt Lake City in 1881. These Hawaiians lived 65 miles west of SLC, in the middle of the inhospitable Utah West Desert, known as Iosepa(named for Joseph, Joseph Smith).
mormoncoffee 1 week ago
You people are ruining the spirit of this video.The spirit of these people talking freely about their testimonies and their feelings of related and love one another as the Savior said.
FOTOFOTA 1 month ago
Has it really been 30 years since the Carter administration threatened to revoke the LDS churches and other organisations charitable tax exempt status' unless they stopped practicing organisational racial discrimination? How time flies...
54v115 3 months ago
@54v115
Exactly when did Carter make that threat? Do you have any documentation to support your statement?
GaryKColeman 2 months ago in playlist More videos from in1820
@GaryKColeman - Why would I have documentation when it is freely available to all. If you are a US citizen? Go take a look for yourself! I'm not hear to hold peoples hands and do the work for them. Look it up in the US Federal Archives... it's under The Administration of U.S. President Jimmy Carter (1976-1980).
54v115 2 months ago
@54v115
You claimed that "the Carter administration threatened to revoke the LDS churches...charitable tax exempt status...." But when challenged, you back down saying "Why would I have documentation...." I agree, why would you have documentation of something that never existed?
You are smart to let others "Look it up in the US Federal Archives." It saves you the embarassment of admitting that you cannot backup your statement.
GaryKColeman 2 months ago
@GaryKColeman Stop whining Gary! Why would I need to keep this information? It is in the public domain. Not to possess data is not backing down. If you want to find out something for YOURSELF.. then YOU GO and FIND THE INFORMATION. You just might believe it then. I've told you where to go. If you can't navigate the Archives - ASK an administrator - I DID, they helped me!
54v115 4 weeks ago
@54v115
I have done the research, the Carter Administration never made such a threat.
Conclusion: YOU LIED.
GaryKColeman 3 weeks ago
@Cheshu1 You're merely avoiding the questions with our revisionist history. How many slaves did he southern Christians have? how long after they were freed did it take to gain legal rights? What did Christians do to free isrealites from baylonian slavery? Why do you continue to avoid the questions? Because their devastating to your revisionist history.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 Tell us how many slaves the christian south had. Tell us how many decades before the freed slaves where actually given legal rights, not to mention equality. Tell us what Christians did to free the enslaved Israelite in Babylon.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 They all had cults of personality that viewed their leaders as gods. Are you unaware that when a religion has gods its theism, not A-theism?
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 In 1488, Pope Innocent VIII accepted the gift of 100 slaves from Ferdinand II of Aragon, and distributed those slaves to his cardinals and the Roman nobility.[83].
But hey, just keep denying that it was christians who created African slavery IN THE FIRST PLACE.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@humanistheart - References to slavery appear in the ancient Babylonian code of Hammurabi. Its form and nature varied greatly in ancient society. It seems to have been common in the Tigris-Euphrates civilizations and in ancient Persia. In ancient Egypt slave labor was used in building temples and pyramids. The institution was familiar to the ancient Hebrews, according to passages in the OT Bible. That'll be pre-christian!
54v115 3 months ago
@54v115 If you'll read them, the comments I left was specific to African slavery; specifically justified through race. No one's saying Christians invented slavery, just the African slave trade. This was pointed out because the moron cheshu wanted to say mormons were racist, ignoring christians own history.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 The papal pronouncements against slavery in the 15th and 16th centuries sought to regulate particular abuses, but they did not deny Spain and Portugal the right to engage in the trade itself. Thus, although the Church mitigated the effects of slavery in Latin America, it also legitimized it both at the beginning and for hundreds of years afterwards.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 Ten black African slaves were presented to Martin in 1441 by Prince Henry of Portugal.[76] Martin supported colonial expansion.[77] Davidson (1961) argues that Martin's injunction against slavery was not a condemnation of slavery itself but rather it was driven through fear of "infidel power".[78]
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 The papal bull of excommunication issued to the Genoese merchants of Caffa related to the buying and selling of Christians but has been considered ineffectual as prior injunctions against the Venetians, including the Laws of Gazaria, made allowances for the sale of both Christian and Muslim slaves.[75]
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 Pope Martin V authorized a crusade against Africa in 1418 and this coupled with a later bull (1441) sanctioned the Portuguese trade in African slaves.[71] In March 1425 a bull was issued that threatened excommunication for any Christian slave dealers and ordered Jews to wear a "badge of infamy" to deter, in part, the buying of Christians.[72] In June 1425 Martin anathematized those who sold Christian slaves to Muslims.[73]
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 I never quoted lenin. More lies. Apparently you don't realize that lying gets you know where when people can merely check what has been written.
humanistheart 3 months ago
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@Cheshu1 The protestants in the USA alone killed over 100 million native americans. Your lies will get you no where.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 You're merely trying to use Mormon racism against them, while simultaneously ignoring your own religions hand in oppressing blacks for centuries.
Give one quote from a christian that tried to stop Israelite enslavement in Babylon.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 No, you're not sorry. And if you truly think that Christians being the cause of african slavery is a revision of history, look into it.
And stop avoiding the question, what were Christians doing when isreal was enslaved by Babylon. And why do you want some credit for helping end slavery when Christians created it in the first place?
humanistheart 3 months ago
Why would any christian be stupid enough to think that Smith was more racist than their version of christianity, when they all participated in creating african slavery in the first place?
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 "He has a right to ask tough questions. "
Then I'm curious why you refuse to answer those questions. Again, where was christianity during the Babylonian captivity? Why is it that you want credit for helping end slavery when it was christians who created the problem in the first place? Why ignore the mass genocides of christian history?
"Jesus ignored the mockers"
Actually he lost his temper and threw hissy fits over them several times.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 You've insulted me numerous times, and it's all in writing. Unless you've gone back and deleted most of your comments. You realize lying about what you typed doesn't work when it's all saved don't you? Apparently not.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 We notice again the total lack of Christians reversing slavery in Babylon. Meanwhile they murder houndreds of millions in the crusades, the 30 years war, th witch hunts, numerous holy wars, African slavery, the genocides of the native Americans, the holocaust, and so on. Now cheshu wishes to ignore all those things.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 "Why would a mormon prophet rage against white Christians freeing slaves through the underground railroad? God wanted the slaves freed"
Funny this god wanted slaves freed after centuries of christian run slavery. Guess he finally changed his mind.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 "Yet, we see the nobel words of the abolitionists as they swayed half of the USA to rise up against slavery,"
Yet we see cheshu still ignoring that the slavery the abolitionists were against, was created and maintained by Christians in the first place.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 How uninteresting that Cheshu continues to avoid the issues. She's yet to tell us why it is that mormons are somehow worse than her version of christianity when it was mainstream Christians that enslaved blacks in the first place, and who kept them from legal rights long after the abolition of slavery. Of cousrse, she refuses to address that because she knows mainstream Christians were no less racist, and actual facts would interfere with her bias.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 "The atheist are self absorbed, elitist and not interested in risking their lives to free others,"
Oh, then how do you explain the countries with the most women, and the most ethnic members of parliament and other government officials are all atheist countries? Hmm?
And you still REFUSE to tell us, why it is you think some Christians FINALLY helping to end black slavery, but not giving them legal rights afterward, undoes the centuries of Christians enforced black slavery.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 Stalin created a cult of personality that worshiped him as s demi-god. When there's a god involved, it's not A-theism now is it? But don't let facts stop you.
humanistheart 3 months ago
@Cheshu1 You have completely ignored the centuries that Christians enslaved Africans. Why is it you want kudo's for helping to end something Christians were responsible for in the first place?
However, of course you will ignore these hard facts and you still have not shared with us any christian contributions for ending slavery in Babylon.
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 You are such a ridiculous liar. Why do you avoid the obvious answer. The Christians didn't care about he enslavement of the Israelite's in Babylon.
've asked you repeatedly to tell us what Christians did to stop slavery in Babylon. And you REFUSE to answer. Or to tell us why some Christians helping to stop slavery counters the fact that it was Christians who enslaved in the first place. It's like purposely shooting a child then wanting credit for rushing it to the hospital.
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 2) Christians who were the ones enslaving in the first place. You just want to have your cake and eat it too. Christians cause centuries of suffering and oppression, and then some finally help to end it, and you want to just ignore the suffering they caused.
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 1) Stalin installed a cult of personality that required people to hang pictures of them in their homes and pray to him like a god. When you start talking gods, it's theism, not atheism.
"I asked you to tell us what the atheist did to contribute to ending slavery during 1800s in USA,"
I've asked you repeatedly to tell us what Christians did to stop slavery in Babylon. And you REFUSE to answer. Or to tell us why some Christians helping to stop slavery counters the fact that it was
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 Again you confuse atheism with communism, in your attempt to avoid the questions and points. Why is it you want to celebrate Christians for helping end the slavery that christians were responcible in the first place? How is fixing the mistakes of their own religious brethren, finally after centuries, somehow make up for the Christians that enslaved the black people in the first place? Why do you refuse to answer this question?
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 so Abraham was a false prophet?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 meh, you deceive yourself because your lack of knowledge of the Bible.. how bout reading it for once :)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 meh, you deceive yourself because your lack of knowledge of the Bible.. how bout reading it for once :)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
"You mocker of Jesus words." ... hmm.. from a person who picks and chooses what to believe in the bible.. whos the real mocker?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 also for us disowning polygamy now, it is true, because we cant have two laws condemning each other.. the 12th article of faith states; We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. and even when mormons practice polygamy(before it was outlawed), we believe less than 5% even practiced it.. and the 1800s.. it wasnt unpopular for teenagers to get married, and if they did, they had the consent of their parents
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 getting a bit angry arent we? so if Joseph had such a deceiving spirit.. i guess the father of Samuel also had a deceiving spirit.. same with Abraham(the father of many nations) and Jacob and Gideon, they too were deceivers..without a prophet, what would you know what to do? when did Jesus say that there shouldnt ever be prophets or apostles after his death? what does Ephesians 4: 11-14 say?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 haha, see.. there, you said it yourself.. the prophets of the bible messed up eh.. is that what you are trying to say right? or were they ordained by God? hmmmm? lets think about that one shall we? you cant seem to find any where in the bible, of a polygamist being punished or the bible saying the 'wrongness' of it... you find adultery, yes.. but that is when you are Outside of marriage.. same with lust.. you cant understand Jesus words.. you cant even understand the bible
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 haha.. you are quite funny.. so the prophets in the bible that practiced polygamy were false prophets and didnt understand the instruction that the lord gave them? is that what you are saying? haha.. wow, you are quite something now arent you... then trying to turn it around on me saying that i dont understand what they are saying.. coming from a person who hasnt even read the book all the way through..
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 sorry, i was half asleep when replying.. but here are some bible scripture containing polygamy;
Genesis 16:1–3;
Genesis 29:23–30;
Genesis 30:4, 9; Judges 8:30; 1 Samuel 1:1–2
im not trying to deceive, you just deceive yourself because you dont know the bible.. like i said, when was the last time you actually read all of it?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 "You know that those who die without the preisthood go to a lesser "kindom" after they die and are the servants of the white mormons." LOL.. that isnt mormon doctrine, it is soooo false, and you probably learned it from an anti-mormon site..(and way to go for ignoring the bible facts i gave you) and what of the whites that were denied the priesthood that had lineiage to africa, and what of the blacks in the Fiji island being granted the priesthood way before 1978? hmm?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 You have not told us what Christians did to free the Israelite from Babylon. Why do you avoid the question. Please tell, us what where to Christians doing while Israelite were enslaved there.
And, why have you repeatedly ignored the fact that it was Christians doing the enslaving of black people in the first place? Hmm?
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 Quite the opposite, you keep wanting some king of credit for the christians who helped end slavery, but COMPLETELY IGNORE the fact that it was christians who created and maintained that slavery for centuries. I've asked you over and over and over again, why it is you think you should get credit for helping to fix your own misdeeds? And even after they were freed christians still didn't give them equal rights. It was only a step up from what they'd been before the civil war.
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 "the Almighty God of the bible never condoned polygamy." well i guess i mustve interpret the bible wrong.. specially Jacob chapter 2 verse 30: If I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall [have only one wife].. when did Jesus say that there should be no more prophets on the earth after him? what of Ephesians 4:11-15, does that have no meaning as well?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
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xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 wow... when was the last time you actually read the whole bible through? and isnt the gateway to heaven by baptism.. when did we ever deny blacks or anyone the right to be baptized? you cant seem to answer that one.. can you answer why God denied 11 of the 12 tribes of Israel the priesthood? you need to reread the bible. and really look into faith and what it means. God has his reasons does he not? whether we understand them.. women are denied the priesthood, does that make us sexist?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 lol, ive have given you many great answers and what do you have to say for it.. nothing but the same thing over and over and over.. i really doubt you even looked at half of my answers.. you just repeat yourself.. prejudice is just as ugly and sinful
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 "The Church of England was implicated in slavery. Slaves were owned by the Anglican Church's Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts (SPGFP), which had sugar plantations in the West Indies. When slaves were emancipated by Act of the British Parliament in 1834, the British government paid compensation to slave owners. Among those they paid were the Bishop of Exeter and three business colleagues, who received compensation for 665 slaves."
humanistheart 4 months ago
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"The abolitionists risked everything and gave their lives to end slavery. "
Against OTHER CHRISTIANS WHO RISKED THEIR LIVES TO KEEP SLAVERY. What about that don't you get?
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1
"The Church of England was implicated in slavery. Slaves were owned by the Anglican Church's Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts (SPGFP), which had sugar plantations in the West Indies. When slaves were emancipated by Act of the British Parliament in 1834, the British government paid compensation to slave owners. Among those they paid were the Bishop of Exeter and three business colleagues, who received compensation for 665 slaves.[25]
humanistheart 4 months ago
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@Cheshu1 "why did Mormon prophets go through the 1960s civil rights movement and not change? "
Why did Christians what until the 1960's to start giving black people real rights?
humanistheart 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 jefflindsay(dot)com/LDSFAQ/FQRace.shtml if that doesnt make you happy..nothing will..and you blind your own heart with hate and misunderstanding.. God tests people, thats all i can say, whether if you want to except that or not.. that sure aint my problem lol, im done here, i rather speak to a brick wall..maybe if youd open your eyes youd see that the lds church did more than you think they did.. seems like i know more about the bible than you do as well.. have a good one
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 One scholar has estimated that there were at least 60,000,000 slaves in the Roman Empire around the time of Paul.. and what did Paul do for a slave that escaped from his master? he told him to go back to him.. why dont explain that one to me? Christianity of course, was against slavery, but Paul as well as the other Apostles had to make the best of an evil situation. Had they opposed it openly, the Church would have been destroyed in short order.
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 And that was different from mainstream christians, how? You keep trying to levy these issues at mormons, when all those issues exist in your own version of christianity as well.
humanistheart 4 months ago
how bout this (read below)...
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
The God of the Bible, who is our God and our Heavenly Father, operates out of infinite love for mankind. His ways truly are just and fair, for salvation is available to all who will accept it, regardless of race or gender.
(continue on..)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex Eh, I'm not sure how 'fair' that is actually. Think about it, no matter who you are or what you've done you can get 'salvation' just by believing and accepting a certain belief system? If that were true, it's very unfair to good people, and those of us who rely on logic, reason, and facts.
humanistheart 4 months ago
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xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@humanistheart God will know everyone's heart and will judge perfectly.. look further into the mormons afterlife views youll see that there are three different kingdoms..doesnt this prove his perfectness and true love for each one of us..not everyone will live with God, but receive a glory and a happiness beyond measure..and higher the kingdom the greater the happiness; the glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion and our obedience to the Lord's commandments..check out lds.org
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex "the glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion and our obedience to the Lord's commandments..check out lds.org"
That's much better than your mainstream christian counterparts. It is certainly more just than hell. But basing ones advancement on 'obedience' and faith rather than ethics isn't what I'd call ideal either.
humanistheart 4 months ago
@humanistheart well.. good ethics is in a way obedience isnt it not? that is why our church doesnt go about damning people because they believe in something different than us.. what you do unto others you do unto Christ right?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex "well.. good ethics is in a way obedience isnt it not?" No, not at all. Good ethics is usually the opposite. If ethics was merely doing what one was told, we'd still have african slavery and women wouldn't have any legal rights.
humanistheart 4 months ago
well yeh i agree.. and there is a limited amount humans can learn in a life time(and people change alot through out time).. but we dont believe we'll stop(progressing and learning) in this life.. i mean, no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven.. none. nothing. no one. so there will be.. there has to be.. a time after death where people will have time to progress up to becoming christ-like.. i mean, how long is eternity? whats the rush?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex
The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of God’s curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21). In contrast, the Bible teaches that God "made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26, KJV), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favoritism (James 2:1).
Please explain why the Mormon bible is so different?
ErikandAndreea 4 months ago
@ErikandAndreea jefflindsay(.)com/LDSFAQ/FQRace(.)shtml
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex I was told once you died in the mormon faith that there was no progressing. You get put where your most comfortable was a way of describing it. Was that inaccurate information?
"a time after death where people will have time to progress up to becoming christ-like.. "
Jesus wasn't exactly a great role model. Again, I question the standard of being 'christ-like' as a positive or fair thing.
humanistheart 4 months ago
@humanistheart ah, he was explaining after we get set to our glories.. i was talking before we get set to our glories/kingdoms.. and im sure you could learn more while in the different glories, but you cant up and go into the next higher glory after youve been set.. so who in your opinion is a better role model than Christ if ya dont mind me asking? and why was he not a great role model?
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex 1) "ah, he was explaining after we get set to our glories.. i was talking before we get set to our glories/kingdoms"
"there has to be.. a time after death where people will have time to progress up to becoming christ-like.. "
Ok, then when after your death do you get set in your glories?
humanistheart 4 months ago
@humanistheart well after we die we go to the spirit world, so that people that never got to learn of Christ fairly on earth will get to do so(also to learn and progress), and have the choice to except him or not.. once everyone has lived and has been taught we are then resurrected then there will be the judgement and then well be set to our glories accordingly
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex Well, that's more fair. I'll grant you that. Of all the afterlife's people currently believe in I'd put that at a close 2nd. Still, what was jesus' purpose then?
humanistheart 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex I don't know, I'd have to think on that. Ghandi was pretty good, but everyone in the past was set in their culture and time period, thus will most likely be behind us today in morals.
Well, first of all calling him a 'christ' is misleading; he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies so he's not a christ. But anyway, he stole, attacked people, was really rude to his followers, broke the laws and was just kind of an ass.
humanistheart 4 months ago
In fact, Latter-day Saints know that God is much fairer than most of our other Christian friends know, for He has even provided a way for those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus Christ to learn of the Gospel and be able to accept a vicarious baptism done for those who have already died.
(continue on..)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@xGoliathOnlinex At least with the LDS he doesn't torture you for all eternity though. They have a much better afterlife concept than mainstream christians.
humanistheart 4 months ago
Though perfectly fair, His ways are often misunderstood by humans who see only a tiny part of the big picture. To us, some of His ways seem unfair. But this is nothing unique to Mormonism, but has been a part of Biblical history for thousands of years.
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xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
For example, the priesthood was initially restricted to those who were members of the tribe of Levi. There were 11 other tribes among the Israelites - was it unfair that only one tribe could have the priesthood? And what about the 99.99% of the world then that weren't Hebrew?
(continue on..)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
Deuteronomy 23 gives further information about restrictions on membership in the Lord's congregation. Bastard's were excluded, as well as their descendants, even to their tenth generation (Deut. 23:2). And those who had the misfortune of having ancestors from the nearby Ammonites or Moabites up to 10 generations ago were excluded (Deut. 23:3-4). What's fair about that?
(continue on..)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
But then, in the Book of Ruth, we read that the Lord made an exception for Ruth, a Moabite, who was accepted into the congregation and got to be one of the ancestors of Jesus Christ. This was wonderful for Ruth, but was it fair to the other Moabites who were excluded for many generations?
(continue on..)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
Human sensibilities about fairness may be offended by some of the Lord's dealings, but the scriptures affirm -as does the personal experience of millions -that we can trust Him as the true example of love and kindness.The details of who gets what responsibility or privilege right now are irrelevant compared to the big issue:who gets eternal life?And only the fullness of the Gospel, as revealed to modern LDS prophets, offers insight into just how remarkably fair and just the Lord is in this mattr
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
the word nigger was not always considered derogatory, because it then denoted “black-skinned”, a common Anglophone usage. Nineteenth-century English (language) literature features usages of nigger without racist connotation, e.g. the Joseph Conrad novella The Nigger of the 'Narcissus' (1897). Moreover, Charles Dickens and Mark Twain created characters who used the word as contemporary usage
1800s and 1900s are completely different to now. like i said.. you know nothing of history
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
1843: Joseph Smith Makes Statements about Blacks
Blacks have souls (an item that others didn’t necessarily believe) and that they are a product of their environment. Given an equal environment they would be on the same level as whites.
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
1842: Smith Writes His Famous Letter about Slavery
“It makes my blood boil.” In speaking of slavery, Smith writes this emotional letter expressing how he feels about slavery.
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
1842: Joseph Smith Writes in His Personal Journal that Slaves Should be Set Free
He writes that the slaves owned by Mormons should be brought “into a free country and set …free– Educate them and give them equal rights.” [30 Dec. 1842 Joseph Smith Journal as quoted in Neither White Nor Black, Bush and Mauss (Signature Books, 1984), p. 62]
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
1836: Elijah Abel Ordained an Elder
In March of 1836, Elijah Abel is given the priesthood and ordained to the office of Elder. This is reportedly done by Joseph Smith himself.
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
1833: W.W. Phelps publishes a controversial editorial in the Evening and Morning Star titled “Free People of Color.” It outlines procedures for the migration of free blacks to Missouri. Missouri is a slave state that beat any free black crossing into or out of Missouri with 10lashes on his or her bare back. The Missourians react very negatively to the editorial and reprint part of it in the St. Louis newspapers. This spark leads to violence against the Mormons
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 meh, you wouldnt know what our prophets say except for what your anti-momon sites like to spoon feed you.. wouldnt you agree that prejudice is just the same as racism? youll find alot of prophets expressing their love towards black people even since the beginning days of this church all the way back to prophet joseph smith.. you probably didnt know that he tried to run for president in 1844 on an anti-slavery platform
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 well no matter what you can try to come up with, nothing can discredit what the spirit has testified to me.. and through the holy ghost i know that this church is the one and only true church on the earth.. and any man who judges unfair like towards another(their race or even sins you think they committed) will have that against them at their judgement.. whether they are apart of this church or not.. but consider as well that there is forgiveness and Christ taught that as well :)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 im not trying to distort the truth.. man is imperfect and we've always believed that. and that in the next life, whatever we dont achieve in this one, we will in the next.. so even if you dont have the priesthood now, its not like its the end of the world for ya.. ;)
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 if you actually look into our church, we have always invited blacks into the church since the beginning. blacklds(dot)org/history.. you know nothing of history.. if you did maybe you would know that during the civil war era, that was around the time that mormons were forced off their land to move to utah during that time.. through fear and misunderstanding of our church, lots of innocent died because of that.. but you could careless bout that eh.. since 'we're a bunch of bigots'
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
I love this church and i love everyone in it and out of it, no matter what faith or race you are :] and i love this Country even with its ugly history of its slavery and racism towards others im sure glad that i live in a time where most of that is behind us Americans and that we are better people than that..
xGoliathOnlinex 4 months ago
Joseph Smith called african americans n-ggers. Why do you trust anything he says? You trust the things that a person says when that person calls people n-ggers? And calls little children and young women n-ggers. And you trust what he says? Please become a human being. And please try googling a little more.
cheerfulerik 5 months ago
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peaceliberty4all 6 months ago
I don't know if you have any idea how many mormons a mormon would come to know over a period of 40 years but we are talking several 1000 and I never met a racist mormon or heard a racist comment made by a member EVER. Now how does this happen in a church that is supposed to be so racist and steeped in history of racism? Why don't you look up the other side of what JS and B.Y. said.
peaceliberty4all 6 months ago
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"Break off the shackles of the poor black man and hire him to labor like other human beings." (History of the Church 5:209)
Parley P. Pratt (Apostle) said in 1855: "I love a man without regard to his country, or where he was brought up, without reference to color or nation. I love a man that loves truth." (Journal of Discourses, 3:182)
peaceliberty4all 6 months ago
hahaha most of those scriptures that are quoted are from the bible, written almost 2000 years ago, but they only became valid as of 1978, hahaha. let's see if personal conviction can explain that.
mmorg8 6 months ago
@painlessreborn Sorry, I actually know my religion and it's people, thus everything you say is nothing more than the lying negative fantasy's of your own mind. We don't look at race, we look at people. Our religion is made up of all kinds of people & races. There is not & never has been "racial subjugation" by mormons. Even with the Priesthood ban, people who knew us, knew we weren't racist. So highly recommend you learn something for a change, rather than living in bigotry & ignorance.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@leeuniverse Youre kidding right, are you that brainwashed that you can't see the truth. Countless Mormon preacher have stood up and said that anyone with dark skin is cursed and in turn decietful and devious and unworthy of a place in heaven unless they are a priest. This is a organization that would not accept a black man ( although I don't know why a black person would consider this) until 1973, no blacks in leadership positions within the tomfoolery of a religion, which was founded by racist
Lindseyadam 6 months ago
@Lindseyadam You misrepresent the facts. I've been dealing with anti-mormons like you for years, and I know every single good and bad statement uttered by a mormon on this issue, and you take a little truth and use it to tell great lies about Mormonism. Joseph Smith and early saints were Abolitionists, even being driven from some of the places they were BECAUSE of that, and he even ordained a couple of Black Africans to the priesthood. You know nothing about what you are talking about.
leeuniverse 6 months ago
@Lindseyadam Blacks were never kept from joining the church. Joseph Smith had several close black friends. There was a black man called to be a seventy (high position in the church) in 1836. Brigham Young passed laws requiring those who had slaves to educate them and that if a slave was poorly treated they would be set free. I didn't live back then but I know that I have never met a racist mormon in my 40years of being a member.
peaceliberty4all 6 months ago
@peaceliberty4all Have you ever read the writings of Bringham Yound and Joseph Smith, their essays contain the word nigger more times than a KKK pamphlet. I'm not saying everyone associated with the religion is racist but if you are following the principles and teachings of someone who is misguided and racist what does that say about you.
Lindseyadam 6 months ago
@Lindseyadam ":the word nigger was not always considered derogatory, because it then denoted “black-skinned By the 1900s, nigger had become a pejorative word." Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were both dead by the 1900's and they lived at a time when there was no such thing as politically correct.Why don't you click on Alex Boye's clip on the right and C how a black man feels about the church.He is well aware of what was said in the past and the fact that the blacks didn't have the priesthood
peaceliberty4all 6 months ago
@peaceliberty4all No offense sir but that word in my opinion as a Black Man was derogatory then and still is today, and Alex Boye's story is nice but at the same time he must really be misinformed about the history of the Mormon church. I respect everyones religion but I just don't believe that a black person should ever be a part of the Mormon church because to accept the religion means that you have to in some way agree with the philosophies of Smith and Young
Lindseyadam 6 months ago
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peaceliberty4all 6 months ago
@peaceliberty4all and even if the church has shifted their thinking I have to wonder why, was it to increase membership and status, or was it really a realization that what was going on was wrong. I can't aswer that questions so in no way can I support blacks joining that church.
Lindseyadam 6 months ago
@leeuniverse(cont) where a prophet or better yet a profit can miracoulously have an epiphany and say that blacks people( really just our money and a chance for increased membership) are welcome with open arms. Stop it with the bullshit, if the KKK decided to change their course would you join the Klan also? A religion founded upon ignorance and the greed of a few cunning individuals to manipulate and profit from other niavete and stupidity.
Lindseyadam 6 months ago
@Lindseyadam You know nothing about the LDS religion to think it's structured in a way that it's leadership at any level do what they do for "money". It's the only religion structured to prevent that. If you wish to learn the actual facts on that, we can have a private discussion. Mormonism is nothing close to the KKK. Even when I left the Church for primarily this issue, I wasn't that ignorant. Unlike you, I actually knew the Church. Properly inform yourself, before opening your mouth.
leeuniverse 6 months ago
@painlessreborn You may have known me somewhat when I was a mormon, or leaving & was anti-mormon etc., but you don't know me now. You don't know what I know and have seen. You simply have been deceived onto another path. Me, I don't hide anything of myself or otherwise. I know exactly my own faults and weaknesses, and I also know my strengths. Knowing truth and right over all other ideology's is one of my strengths. I have both the necessary vast experience & knowledge to be sure.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@painlessreborn I DID turn Atheist/Agnostic. But never felt "betrayed". I just considered it another man-made religion that couldn't be true. But, I was mistaken. I wasn't patient, humble, nor teachable. But, a few years later after living in the world, I was ready to study again to see if there was a "true" Church on the earth. I eliminated all other religions as possibly valid, & again studied mormonism, focusing on comparing anti-mormonism with LDS scholarship, & study the issues I had.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@painlessreborn That friend later ordained me an Elder when I came back, so it wasn't a total loss. Ha ha! You don't know a thing about me. A great deal of effort has gone into knowing what I know, & experiencing what I've experienced, so I could "objectively" make wise and righteous judgments and be a good person. I have no interest whatsoever in man-made religion, even contempt for it, so don't presume you can judge my character simply because of your own ignorance of the subject matter.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@painlessreborn Anti-mormon fantasy's of people is not reality. I have no family, so no I didn't return to the Church because of "pressure" from anyone. I was perfectly happy being an Atheist & against religion. But, I was however strongly interested in the actual truth of things, not just my current judgments, thus I kept learning when I was ready to. Hardly any friends knew I was inactive, save one whom I was supposed to learn to fly from, my arrogance and judgmentalism stopped that.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@painlessreborn Of course you don't believe what I said, you rely on your own feeble mortal logic to discern things which are spiritual and can only be learned through sincere and earnest prayer to Our Heavenly Father. And the Lord doesn't do anything cause He's worried about the so-called Government coming down on His work. He does what He wants when He wants....This is HIS Church He knows what needs to be done
TrickTrolan 7 months ago
ALL Races are welcome in Our Fathers House!! I don't question Our Savior about things He puposely hasn't given us answers to, YET.
The Lord decided that in "78" it was time for Our african brothers to recieve the Priesthood....it's that simple. No need to bicker just accept His timing, He's perfect and does everything for a reason. We'll know everything when this test is all over, till then TRUST HIM....I Know I Do
TrickTrolan 7 months ago
i don't think that lds church members are any more racist or non-racist than any other group of people.
i do think it is strange that the black/african people in the lds faith now can somehow justify the fact that the church OUTRIGHT AVOIDED them up until 1978. ask anyone who was a missionary then and, if they tell you the truth, they were instructed to determine if there was any african in a person's geneology before trying to baptise them. certainly, they did not want to marry them either.
knowtheonetruegospel 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel The Church did not "outright avoid" them. Obviously in areas with large populations there needs to be Priesthood leadership, thus the Gospel yes wasn't actively preached in those areas, i.e. Africa. They always were allowed to be members of the Church, not segregated either. Blacks of all other races, India, Islands, Central/South America, etc. WERE given the priesthood, if they were not of African decent. The ban was because of the racism in the world, not the Church.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@leeuniverse your logic makes no sense. the CHURCH banned blacks from priesthood and yet you say it wasn't hte church being racist? black people were not given priesthood or allowed to enter the temple until 1978. true or not??
“But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and BLACK just like the Devil" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332)
knowtheonetruegospel 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel Was Christ racist when he "banned" non-Jews from being taught the Gospel, and it taking Peter AFTER Christ's death to get a Revelation to then take the Gospel to them? Was the Priesthood being restricted to certain "lineages/tribes" also racist by Moses etc.? Likewise the Church is not "sexist" simply because women are not given the Priesthood. Bigotry is based on behaviors, attitudes, etc., not simply a policy.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@leeuniverse Ehhh! Wrong! Racism has everything to do with RACE! (DUHHHH) "African descent" is RACE!! Racism and sexism (although both abhorrent) are different things. All women might be subordinated and denied priesthood. Yet, the wives of WHITE men had husbands who held the priesthood. Wives of AFRICAN descent men (since you refuse to use the word BLACK) didn't have husbands who held the priesthood and they could NOT enter the temple. What could possibly be MORE racist than that??
knowtheonetruegospel 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel Temple Ordinances are a "family" affair. The woman holds the Priesthood in Temple Covenant as a Priestess to God with the man Priest. That is the reason African woman were not allowed to go to the Temple. As to your "redefining" Racism, I always see this from anti-mormons. When you lose to the facts, you then have to redefine terms. I bet before talking to me you didn't even know the ban only applied to those of African decent did you? Racism has certain "traits"....
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel No one claims (save liberals) that the Boy Scouts are sexist or homophobes.... No one claims ladies night at bars are sexist, no one claims that the NAACP or other "black groups" are racist simply because they have black only clubs, etc. etc. Racism is "intent" and "attitude". Not simply by classification characteristics, such as African or Lineage.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel If the Church was actually racist against "blacks" which is what racism applies to, or other races, such as Asians, etc., then the Church would have banned ALL "blacks" from the Priesthood, & it wouldn't have banned whites who had African lineage from the Priesthood. I know you are having the shakes, because your brain has been on "hate mormons" mode forever, but these are the FULL facts. A policy does not make racism, the attitudes behind it & it's application does.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel As to your question NOT TRUE. "blacks" were not banned from the Priesthood, those of African lineage were. Even whites were not given the Priesthood. Blacks of other races WERE given the Priesthood. India, Central/South America, the Islands, etc. And your quote by Brigham Young he's refering to ones "spirit", not skin color. Or are you ignorant of the fact that "black" has been used to symbolize evil, while white has been used to symbolize good in matters of faith?
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@leeuniverse no, i'm not ignorant of that at all. BLACK/darkness in the English language has a long history of connatations with evil, etc. however, are you ignorant to the fact that you are skimming the obvious point here? ALL AFRICANS/AFRICAN DESCENDENTS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO INTO THE LDS PRIESTHOOD OR ALLOWED TO ENTER THE TEMPLE.
you say "even whites were not given the priesthood" as though that had anything to do with their RACE! certain INDIVIDUALS who were white, not ALL WHITES.
knowtheonetruegospel 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel I'm not "skimming" any issue at all..... If the ban was not about racism from the Church itself. Christ and Moses weren't racist either, yet they did the same exact thing. "Banning" a group or groups from something. And I already explained to you, "blacks" were not banned, a particular lineage was, including WHITES who were of that lineage.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel Let me be clear. Racism has certain characteristics. Those characteristics did not exist in the Church. Did some "individuals" say some wrong things, or misrepresented as saying wrong things, yes. But, that's not the Church itself. When I first joined this Church, I had been in many churches by that time, including black churches, & this was pre-1978. The Church was so non-racist in it's teachings & behaviors, I didn't even know of the ban until it was removed.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel Let me be even more clear.... I once left the Church myself primarily over this issue, but I was ignorant of scriptures, of the Churches actual full history, etc. Once I decided to find out the actual truth of things, that's when I learned that the Church wasn't actually racist, that it was a policy per the Lords Will. It's the same reason the scouts are not sexist because they don't allow females to be scouts. A policy doesn't equate to an actual evil or wrong.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@knowtheonetruegospel I learned, that the clear an unequivical reason for the ban, was because of the sins of the world itself. God didn't want the Church nor the Priesthood from being destroyed because of racism. The Church already had suffered some being driven from some of the states they were driven from because the Mormons were Abolitionists, and had a large voting block, thus the bigoted anti's drove them out and killed them. Thus, where did the actual "bigotry" reside? In non-mormons.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
@leeuniverse my goodness, that logic makes no sense. bc others were racists & the lds were abolitionist, God said Africans & all African-descended peoples could not hold the priesthood or enter the temple? there isn't even logic there at all!
by the way, the abolition of slavery happened back in the 19th century. why would Africans be banned from priesthood and the temple until 1978--darn near the 21st CENTURY then??
knowtheonetruegospel 7 months ago
"the gospel od JC needs no defense, it stands on its own" ......ummm there's the whole lack of proof thing....
AGRANT716 7 months ago
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Mormons are NOT "Racist". They just believe the Mormon "GOD" Loves them more than persons of "Any" color other than "white". But the Mormon "God" Really had it out for People of African descent for some "reason". And Why was it only the Mormon Church that got this Message from God that "Colored Folks" Shouldn't be able to participate in "certain" parts of the church. The Mormon Church is a off-shoot of Christianity w/ a touch of "Let's just make up shit as we go and Say "God " said it."
elitetraxxx 8 months ago
Mormons believe that God cursed Cain with dark skin and a flat nose. However the mark was set upon Cain BEFORE the flood. In the flood perished all but Noah,his wife,3 sons and their wives. If the curse upon Cain was dark skin, the only way for the race to survive was for Noah to be a direct decendent to Cain. Noah's geneologly didn't come from Cain. It came from Seth.
Genesis 5:3,6-29,30-32. 1 Chronicles 1:1-4.Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. --Jesus Matt 22:29
JSeely218 8 months ago
@JSeely218 Ye do err, not knowing mormonism. Some in history promoting the Protestant Mark of Cain theory doesn't mean that was the official reason for the ban. A few presidency's yes stated such, but the consitent and always official reason for the ban was "we don't know", only that it was to be restricted until God said otherwise. Also, you mistake the theory, it didn't work like you mention. But, we would agree, some mormons in history misapplied ideas in trying to explain "why" the ban.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
just converted.
BLUEEYESSEVEN 8 months ago
@BLUEEYESSEVEN
Congrats, I know as you live the gospel you will see how much it will bless your life. I've been a member of the Church for 6 years, and the blessing I have received are numberless, I have received so many that it's hard to count them. I know the Lord will bless you and the he is proud of you for your decision.
michaelgrella 8 months ago
How can any thinking person of African heritage follow a religion that labeled them as children of Satan and ostracized them for 150 years?
ireton3 8 months ago
@ireton3 Because such people actually study the history and know the people and the religion, and know very well that such things are misrepresentations by anti-mormons, not the full and accurate history. They were not labeled "children of satan" by the Church. A couple of people in history stating or applying something similar doesn't make the Church. It also never "ostracized" them. In fact, one of the reasons they were kicked out of a couple of states is because they were abolitionists.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
Why do the Mormons believe what they believe, im asking not to judge or dis I'm just curious why they chose to become Mormon. once again
JesseCavalli 9 months ago
@JesseCavalli Please contact me through PM, and I'd be happy to discuss anything with you. I have a strongly diverse background and experience, thus can more fully and accurately answer basically anything you want to know.
leeuniverse 7 months ago
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Joseph Smith ran for President with a platform that included the abolition of slavery. Elijah Abel (a black man) was ordained to the LDS priesthood on March 3, 1836. Walker Lewis (a black man) was ordained to the LDS priesthood in 1843. There are others as well who received the priesthood prior to the 1970s (I just don't have the names offhand), and there has NEVER been a restriction on membership/baptism/eternal-rewards based on skin color.
canofsand 9 months ago
The LDS have some appealing aspects which is how they attract new members and these aspects are so strong that people think that this religion must be true, but as is written in the bible.
2 Corinthians 11:14 - And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
supraken123 9 months ago
@supraken123 You know who else appears as angels? Angels. That people think that verse disproves visits from angels is silly. Find a verse that says "no more angels will ever appear again" and maybe you'll have a point.
canofsand 9 months ago
Disney Doctrine.... you just wait for the Lion King sound track... great social engineering.. Mormons have great hearts... but piss poor minds.
54v115 10 months ago
@54v115 Spoken like a true bigot.
canofsand 9 months ago
@canofsand .. of course.. but Jesus still loves me.. unlike you lot.. don't believe in Jesus... at least not the Jesus of the New testament... tell me why your brain isn't full of shit...
54v115 9 months ago
@54v115 Wow. So... you say Jesus doesn't love Mormons, eh? Who taught you that? It certainly wasn't an honest student of the Bible. You've just proven my point.
canofsand 9 months ago
@canofsand - you are anti christian.. you follow something that sets itself up against Christ.. you follow man and you do things in the name of God which isn't in the interest of God but man, you work against the ordinaces of the Lord and you claim his office of High priest, which you do not have.. you say whatever Jesus did for us.. atoned for our sins on the cross ISn't enough... and you contradict Jesus words on monotheism..so you think God is on your side?...lol..lol...lol JERK!
54v115 9 months ago
So Uncle Tom and Aunt Jemima go to these mormon churches to remind themselves that they are cursed animals? Sounds like fun.This is a special kind of craazy
bosshog7169 10 months ago
Do you do a testimony about God had many wives, and we are all literal childern, do you belive Jesus had a brother, named Satan, who didn't want the test of the world, do you belive that Jesus, is a God himself, total seperate, and we who live as saints get to become literal Gods and in the highest level of heaven, get to rule over our own planet, do you belive dark skin is a curse, by God but those who live good lives can become white in heaven, do you believe all that too?
ASexyChef 10 months ago
This is why Black ppl get teased and ripped on all the time. Blacks are so desperate to be accepted in this world and try to make others happy sooo bad that they give up and convert to something they are not. Face is blacks...the mormons hate you...you will never be a human in their eyes....get over it and move on. You can't watse ur life trying to make friends and shit, you have to love yourselves first before you can be loved by others!
kasouyumi 11 months ago
So the logic is that God was a total racist until 1978. Before that, not so much? It can't possibly be that the LDS church was a racist outfit. I wish they would just come real with their shit. Racists and homophobes. The whole religion.
ocmozfan 11 months ago
@ocmozfan indeed
LAWTV1 11 months ago
Can't help agreeing with sketto.
One of their 'prophets' says blacks are cursed, and will always be. Next one comes along and now they're not.
What a mess.
thesignsoflife7 1 year ago
Racist organization!
Now they celebrate they day the finally were pressured into acting human by the rest of society. Yet they still pretend it was god's "revelation". Yeah, right. What a crock of shit.
sketto 1 year ago
@sketto Think about it " there is no way the church would have survived the Lord knew that" Joseph Smith whom we all know was an abolitionist and he knew it. But the lord knew when the time would be right.The timeing was perfect the church grew from then onwards. I am a Member in N.Ireland and I served my mission in california I wore a t-shirt one day with Michael Jordan on it during 4th of july parade all the black men where calling me bro I did not know why then. but! proud to wear it now
MongoSoose 1 year ago
@sketto Sometimes I wish I was a black man! might sound silly to some [but think about it] among your injustice as a people you are the most blessed and gifted people, why do think that is? The church is a revelatory church one tiny example where Joseph Smiths wife [Emma] was cleaning out the spit-toons she approached Joeseph on the matter and revelation speaks the rest. that has always been the way with the church.
MongoSoose 1 year ago
what a load of bullshit..I swear, there's a coward house nigga born every minute.
paulpaid 1 year ago
After 30 years and how many blacks are in general authority leadership status in the church? ONE!!! And he is mixed race.
ozarkmac 1 year ago
Funny thing, every mormon says they KNOW god exists and their god and their church is the right. They KNOW. It's funny because all the people from all the different religions think the same thing. The questions is: who is right? Who is the real god? "God"? Alah? Thor? Buda? Mithra? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Money?
PrawdaUnia 1 year ago
@PrawdaUnia When we say, we "know" that God exists, this does not reflect an intellectual knowledge but rather a deep spiritual experience. I also believe that anybody who is open to it can have that experience.
Troul478 1 year ago
Funny, Blacks were good enough to pay their tithing, but could not serve the priesthood. Mormonism is the same lie Satan told Eve, repackaged. Nowhere in the Bible did it ever say Blacks were cursed for their skin color. Could it be that God created different races for variety? Just like we have different colors of plants, fruits, vegetables and animals, as well as many different species. Makes more sense than Joseph Smith's ridiculous lies.
cayetanohawaii 1 year ago
@cayetanohawaii very true.
mr41ststreet 1 year ago
Unbelievable how Blacks accepted such garbage from the LDS Church of being discriminated against. Then, all of a sudden a "prophet" had a revelation to allow them to serve the priesthood. How CONVENIENT for getting new members around the world, like Africa, to get more tithe payers. A loving God would never have promoted racism.
cayetanohawaii 1 year ago 2
30 years since God said, "Hey, sorry about that."
GohModley 1 year ago