Good discussion has broken out here. Tibetan struggle is not for separation - but if China handles it poorly, it will be so in future. China is still an empire of conquest, and the issue for Tibetans is a colonialism as ugly as any in the past.
Their situation is not so different from white-ruled South Africa, except that SA whites were actually born there. Few Chinese lived in Tibet when it was invaded, but now they rule it for China's benefit. China, the last colonial power.
3- I'm a New Zealander. I was born here. My heritage is Filipino and I am interested in my heritage but I really don't have any knowledge of Filipino politics. If there are injustices there then I am against them. But we are talking about Tibet... not Philippines
In these modern times Tibetans running Tibet could have a very high standard of living. However, materialism has never been the fundamental driving force for Tibetans. There's more than enough resources in Tibet for every Tibetan to live well. Tibet and I mean all of Tibet makes up about 17% of what China claims to be their territory. One more reason why Tibet will never be freed by the Chinese.
"tibetian wanting their country back..." lol what a properganda. if tibetian actually by some mircle get their "country back" they will immediately need international aid to sustain their "country", face it without chinese support, tibetian will remain below the povetry standard
If someone stole your country, would you want it back or not? Chinese patriots need to ask themselves this question. Much of the nationalist hysteria whipped up this summer is based on China's "shame" at having been exploited by stronger powers in the past, and isolated by them.
Now what makes these same people proud? Stealing someone else's country, exploiting it to the hilt, crushing anyone dissatisfied with this, and completely isolating it from the world.
First of all, u have to prove tibet is a country to justified that statment. For many dynasties, many provinces and district in china (including tibet) has been on and off under "chinese offical" rule. Because when revolution happens, different provinces took different sides. You cant prove tibet is a country from history, at best it is another provinces that goes on and off, like gondo, or HK or Macau. I am for greater freedom. But unresonably calling tibet a country is anooying history.
Broadly speaking, a nation is any community which shares an identity based on a common history, language, laws, culture which seeks political self-determination. Self-determination of nations (whether it be via statehood, representation in a democratic society or other means) is outlined in the UN Charter.
In other words... Tibet is a nation because they say they are and have seen themselves as distinct from the Chinese collective throughout history.
According to the UN dictionary, sure, but not by history and politic.
So if tibetan say they are a nation they should have a nation, then how come native american dont have their nation? The aboriginal people in Canada? The native in Australia?
You're confusing the concept of nation with the concept of state.
But first of all... let me get this out of the way. The history of countries like New Zealand (my home country), Canada and the United States is SHAMEFUL.
The way in which the native nations WITHIN states in the West have self-determination is via Democracy which gives them a voice and via constitutional or legal protections against ALL immigrant and native national minorities.
It gives them self-determination as a nation. That's the important thing and that's all the Dalai Lama is asking for.
As for the Free Tibet movement being racist? The Europeans have done some terrible things throughout HISTORY. But the Chinese are doing terrible things TODAY.
We have a saying in English...
"2 wrongs don't make a right"
Also please stop making it about the West against China. I'm not talking to you as a Westerner to a Chinese. I'm talking to you as a human to another human.
Why dont you have the guts to yell free native, free aboriginals, free brask population.
Cause this is classic double standard. This is modern world. Chinese people are not stupid. If you want free tibet, then free canada, free Australia, free the US.
I actually support Indigenous rights in all countries these countries. The issue in the West isn't so much about freedom though. These people are free to the extent that under Western laws they can practice their culture and religion. It's more about righting the wrongs that happened to them in the past. I support that.
Having right does not equal they get their country back.
And tibetan has the same rights as regular Chinese. So I dont see why they should have more rights then other Chinese considering they are in the same country.
If this is a human right issue, then you should obviously renounce the Free tibet movement. Since free tibet is more or less a terrorist + splitist movement by definition.
But I dont expect white people to realize this. You people are good at double standard and racial bias.
1- I'm a New Zealander... but I'm not white. I'm Asian (Phillipines)-New Zealander.
2- Free Tibet is a human right issue because China is not giving Tibetan their human rights. It is not a terrorist movement it's a freedom movement.
3- It doesn't matter if they have the same rights as other Chinese... they are not Chinese. They are Tibetans. I'm starting to think that regular Chinese are oppressed though.
1) You are still not Chinese. It is still an internal affairs.
2) Free tibet is a separatist movement. To liberate tibet to form a new country. Not human right. Google it if you dont believe me.
3) It matters, because Rights are universal. If you only care for tibetan rights, then you are racial bias. What about Chinese rights? What about natives? What about Filipino? Philippines is still a 3rd world country and is lacking living standard right. Maybe you should fight for a better phillipine?
1- It's not an excuse. I'm a human and I see China taking away human rights of Tibetans so I'm angry about that.
2- It's a seperatist movement as well as a human rights movement.
3- I don't only care for Tibetan rights... but this is what we're talking about. Stop trying to bring up other issues. You're just a stupid Chinese nationalist. I know many Chinese people in New Zealand and they are ashamed of China and they moved to NZ because China is not free.
1) I am also angry about natives human rights, and new zealand natives human right. When are they getting their country back?
2)Seperatist movement is illegal and violate national internals affairs.
3) Then dont apply double standard. Tibet deserve to be free as much as natives or aboriginals. If you wont treat them the same, then you are racist and bias.
PS: Many fillinpos maids are also ashamed of them self as they seek better life in HK.
1- Good. It is impossible for Maori to get their country back because they are now a minority. Instead we have given them political and cultural and religious freedom which all NZers are entitled to. That is all we ask China to give the Tibetan people. Except because the Tibetans are a MAJORITY in Tibet... political and cultural freedom probably equals independence. That is why it is not a double standard
2- It's not internal affairs. China invaded Tibet in the 1950's.
1)Tibet is an TAR. Where is Maori autonomous region? China has given tibetan approprieate freedom in most field. Can you site an unbias report which actually proof that that tiebtan are suffering?
2)Its internal affairs. Tibet surrender 800 years ago. Read history. Dont spin.
3)Human rights is universal. If you isolate Tibet, it is still bias, and even racist.
Like I said, if you support free tibet, then you should have no problem with free natives, or aboriginal.
1- Can you cite an unbiased report? I consider the UN, NGO and independent accounts non-biased. Do you read anything I say? Maori have freedom and protection under law and exercise political will via Democracy. Tibetans don't have this freedom.
2- You read history. Conquest does not give you a right to occupy a country. Tibet was an independent country between 1911 and 1950. Furthermore Tibetans NEVER saw themselves as culturally Chinese. This is true with other minorities such Urghur.
1) Yes, UN never isolate tibet. It is a report on whole of China. Others NGO are supported political motives. Such as free tibet and the past DL were funded by the CIA.
2) If conguest does not give the right to occupy, then tell me, when will Canada, US, Australia, New Zea...etc be free of White people? Natives and aboriginal people are NOT WHITE.
Like I said, people who support free tibet are usually bias, and racist. I dont expect much from people like you.
1- NGO only motives are humanist ones. CIA is an American agency. China and US used to be enemies during Mao.
2- You're an idiot. The situation is completely different. Settler nation-states have a native MINORITY. Freedom of cultural expression and religion as well as democracy is what we can give them. Tibetans are a MAJORITY in Tibet. China does not give them freedom to practice their culture or religion. China does not allow them to vote or control their region. It is not Autonomous.
1) NGO are funded by political or economic groups. Their motives are questioned. You have no proof that tibetan rights, in any shape or forms are restricted. All you have are bias report from the BBC and CNN. Maori doesnt even have their autonomous region.
2) Your are a uneducated idiot who know have to curse because you are losing an argument. Natives got their land stolen from them. What good is right without their country? Tibetan is still a minority in CHINA. Tibet is a province.
1- I don't think you can say that NGO's have an agenda other than human rights etc. CNN is a private news corporation
2-I'm not losing an argument. I'm frustrated at your lack of humanity and ignorance. You lost your argument as soon as you tried to justify the injustice in Tibet by the injustices you percieve to be happening in the West. You already admit that it's wrong but you think that it is OK for China to behave like this because European did so up to the 19th Century.
1- Tibetan have their own region but no say in it. Tibetan religion is restricted, Tibetan language is not taught in schools, Tibetan history is not taught, Tibetans are restricted from freedom of speech. Maori have all these things Tibetans don't have.
2- Tibet declared itself independent in 1911 actually and formed it's own army and government.
3- Human rights is universal. I'm not isolating Tibet. This video is about Tibet so I'm talking about Tibet.
I support a free Tibet. Like I said before I support Native and Aboriginal freedom and human freedom all over the world. The circumstances are different though for reasons I've stated before.
3)The circumstances is that one is conquer by white people, the other is surrender to Mongolian, then later Chinese.
Like I sad, Tibetan have as much right for their country, as natives, and other aboriginal. If you are turely unbias, then you should be equally supportive for each of their cost.
If natives wont even get their own autonomous region, I dont see why tibet should get their own country. Infact, Tibetan has more rights then these natives in NA and Australia.
The circumstances are more different than that. The main one being Tibetans are a majority. Natives in settler states are minorities. Tibetans have more in common with former African colonies than settler nation states. Europe used to rule Africa but in the end because Africans are a majority in Africa... White people left Africa.
2) Tibet independence in 1911 was not recognize. Same thing with kosovo, TW, and South Osetia. They dont have their own army, until 1950s when CIA help them set up a resistance forces, which was destroyed by the good people of the PLA. The 14th DL, was a member of the Chinese congress. I bet you dont know that.
Finally, white people did not leave NA or Australia or New zealand.
You are bias toward white people. Shame on you. White people are just people, I do not worshiped them. Do you?
There are no difference between Africa or Canada, US, Australia. They are conquer by white people. The difference is that white people choose to stay in some, and leave on others.
This shows your ignorance. There are no more countries in the world ruled and oppressed by a white minority. If there were then I'd support freeing them too.
The countries in which there are white people but a native minority I support the rights of the minority.
That is the difference.
Anyway... like I said before... you already lost this argument when you tried to justify the evil things the Chinese are doing with the evil actions of European empires of the past.
I can say I am the president of the US, and noone would believe me.
This debate has prove that you are one who refuse to look at history and be unbias. Your entire rant on how white is justified meanwhile Chinese is not on past invasion is laughable, It shows how much of a white suck up you are.
Further more, if you are really of asian decent, then you may have a serious inferior complex.
Natives, aboriginals, the facts are all here. You loss.
PS: You lost this argument the moment you start cursing.
History and logic are based on solid ground.
Your hidden motive of bashing China was clear. Stop pretending like you care for Tibetan. You dont even give a shit for others natives or aboriginal who have their land stolen by white people.
It's a shame that your nationalism blinds you. I never justified European colonialism ever. Of course the Chinese nationalist narrative is all about how the West and Japan held China down.
Ironically the same sort of things the Japanese did in Manchuria which Chinese nationalists often complain about are the same things the Chinese did and are still doing to Tibetans to this day.
Anyway... I'm sorry I lost my temper. I hope you can find peace in your life.
Thats alright, racist people like you should never debate about tibet in the first place. You obviously fail to give a fail and universal human rights persective for tibetan and other natives in this world. It is also obvious that you favour and justified white colonization, meanwhile impose a double standard on China.
If you only you agree that other white conquer counties deserve to be free, your argument would stand, and there is nothing I can say to justified tibet.
It was recognised by the Tibetans you idiot. Do you understand what self-determination means? It's in the UN charter.
I'm not going to entertain your ideas about settler states anymore. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about if you think that a practical solution to solving the plight of native people's in the West is to uproot the majority population descended of immigrants. A population that has been there for hundreds of years. That would be an injustice against human rights.
timee: Now I know you're just being silly. You're now making comparisons with no logical reason at all. Would you say the millions of Chinese who were displaced by flooding last flood season, were "left to die" by the CCP? Even I wouldn't say that.
If you were to say the hundreds of miners killed by lax safety standards were left to die by CCP, then I might agree.
Or the 140+ Tibetans who were killed by PAP (and PLA?) in the last 2 months were MADE to die by CCP, then I would very much agree.
you are just backing up what i said in my initial post.
yes the things you mentioned are china's problems. when did i say they were not? yes chinese govt needs to do more to sort out the country's injustices and other problems. why does YOUR govt and people like you feel a need to intervene in these problems far away when there are MANY MANY problems in your own countries?
timee: Yes problems are everywhere, and it's a global village. Right now the world is trying to intervene in Burma, not because there are no OTHER problems, but because those people are not cared for by their own gov't.
Democratic states do try to resolve human crises like this, because their own people demand they do. But even in a massive calamity like now in Burma, when the junta refuses world help, undemocratic states like China shield them from UN action. This is the difference.
oh by the way where did you get the figures for the 140 tibetans who died in the last 2 months?
have you forgotten how the events of the last 2 months started? have you conveniently avoided to talk about the han and muslim chinese who were killed by the tibetan rioters in march? did you forget about the 5 girls who died in the fire started by tibetan separatists? oh yeah they are not shown on your media are they
timee: I hit the remove instead of reply and lost your other comment, about how westerners are brainwashed into democracy (not suitable for Chinese you say). People in free countries have free inquiry, that's how children (and others) are encouraged to learn. It's not indoctrination, as the CCP is now trying to do with Tibetans. You should watch what's continuing to happen now, not just fixate on that one day of violence in Lhasa. CCP violence started before that, and continues right now.
as a chinese now i know why the arabs hate the west. the west really is in decline, they resort to self-righteuous arrogant nasty attacks and use excuses like tibet and even darfur to criticise our country...even dare to say they will boycott olympics in order to shame china! if you really want to shame china you europeans should win your country some more gold medals, or even bronze will be an improvement
timee: If you wish to equate yourself with those Arabs who do hate the west, maybe you'll also understand that freedom-loving people are as disgusted with Chinese Communist Party fundamentalists as they are with the murdering Islamist fundamentalists.
Many people in Muslim majority countries actually do value freedom - Indonesia for example. Iraqis are proving that most of them do as well.
Hey, YOU made the comparison! I would HOPE that not too many CCP'ers would see the world as you do.
i said i under why many arabs HATE the west, not i understand why many arabs BOMB the west. i am not talking about fundamentalists you dumbass. YOU're the one making that comparison, not me.
and i like how you call me a 'CCPer' - very inventive!
timee: If you read a little more SLOWLY, you'll see that I DIDN'T call you a CCP'er. I said I hope not too many of them see the world like you do.
The Arabs who HATE the west form aprox. 100% of those fundamentalist jihadis who BOMB - not just the west, but their own people too. That's not to say that 100% of HATERS are also BOMBERS. Get it?
If you "understand" the HATERS, do you also HATE for similar reasons then?
You are certainly the one that introduced this comparison, not me.
I have not big issues with these three gentalmen. One thing I disagree is that they use the word 'Chinese' to cover all ethnic groups in China but Tibetan. This is very much like to say British vs Scots.
of course chinese dont trust dalai lama..he's been an ally of CIA..maybe passively..but still..CIA has been conspiring and plotting against china just as in cuba(fact)...look what happened to middle-east when US gov. destablized iraq(which is a tiny nation)..i mean china is a superpower(not saying that war is obvious)..and yes boycotting is produce the worst outcome
1one1: There you go with conspiracies again. DL is an ally of Tibetans living under colonial rule. If US supports them too, great. Every free country should do so.
Boycott is basically personal. Which regimes will you support with your own money? I will always look for a product made in Thailand, Malaysia or Indonesia rather than China.
CCP doesn't trust DL because they're paranoid conspiracists too. He represents their absolute failure to brainwash Tibetans after 60 years of their rule.
OMG they actually got it right!!!!!!!!! boycotting oylmpics will do no good!!!! i keep arguing that!!!!!! yay i' glad there are people who actually knows how to improve internatinal relations and are not just blindingly asking for boycott!!!! 5 star they actually got it right!!!!!!!! take heed to this people!!!!!!!
That's funny. You just commented on Part 1 that "they really dont know anything". Five minutes later, they are brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111
lol beacuse they did make mistakes but they showed they knew some thing, part one was stupide comments, how can you mistake a huge group of chinese and ethnic groups that is stupide mistake and they shoulodnt make that, but they are telling the truth on part two.
EXILES are representing theocrat. Thye can never come back to China, never,never! They should stay in India and Canada and the US where they can get endless free stuff for ever!!!
theocrat in Tibet has to be destroyed completely. COMPLETELY! Only CCP is able to solve this problem. Theocrat is even worse than 18 centry europe. I strongly support CCP to reform Tibet, HARDER! It doesn't need that long, in 10 years. Tibetans people will be totally free from theocrat!
Nobody wants theocracy, not HHDL, not the exiles, not the suffering people of Tibet. No one. Theocracy and feudalism is the CCP strawman. You wrote a few minutes ago that you know CCP lies to you, and you like it. Tibetans don't.
What Abrahm Lustgarten said about what Tibetan wants is true, I believe. Don't agree with the rest.
The notion "the train connecting China and Tibet" is wrong. They should say between Beijing and Tibet. Tibet is not a country. Only Abrahm Lustgarten used the term 'Beijing and Tibet'.
I'm not a believer of Western Media, but i have to admit that this one's a bit fairer than others. Maybe we have not give them the real respect as they deserve, by giving them more advantages over ourselves? but overall, they've got the point, that is, stability is good for everyone.
These people and media are trying hard to mislead people and give China bad image. If it is your goal, good job, but I don't think that will last long, more and more people don't trust western media anymore, even some western people who have been China don't agree with them. Even fell shame about their biased news...
I don't think one has to try very hard to make China look bad. China is doing a pretty good job doing that on its own. Blaming the media is a cheap excuse to ignore the real crimes China is committing against the Tibetan culture. If you want to talk about biased news, then maybe you should first take a look at the Chinese media.
Chinese Government try hard to help them to have a better life, build new building, schools there. Everyone want a good job, not only Tibetans, people from all the country, but they have to earn that, everyone have a equal chanch...
People who study Tibet and her history eventually conclude where the bias is really coming from. These are respected scholars of the subject. Com. Party points of view are written by ideologues who don't care about historical truth.
Tibet, 1960: "Tibet was...a de facto independent State... In examining the evidence....(official documents) demonstrated from 1913 to 1950 the conditions of statehood as generally accepted under international law. In 1950 there was a people..territory, and a government... conducting its own domestic affairs free from any outside authority...countries with whom Tibet had foreign relations...treated Tibet...as an independent State."
In 1959, the International Commission of Jurists found there is prima facie evidence the Chinese Communists have by acts of genocide attempted to destroy the Tibetan nation and the Buddhist religion in Tibet... the Chinese have by killing Tibetans and by the forcible removal of Tibetan children committed acts contrary to the Genocide Convention of 1948. There is also evidence that these acts were intentionally directed towards the destruction of the Tibetan religion and the Tibetan nation.
1. HongKong and Macau is special district not autonomy according to China's law.
2. What Dalai requested and clearly spoken by Tibetan Youth is to get ultimate independence. Don't just listen to what he said but observe what he has done even for a so called "living god"
3. Taiwan is not going to be either special district nor antonomy.
The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is an inalienable part of the People's Republic of China.
Article 2
The National People's Congress authorizes the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to exercise a high degree of autonomy and enjoy executive, legislative and independent judicial power, including that of final adjudication, in accordance with the provisions of this Law.
BB---}}} Kosovo Independence and Tibet Terrorism was a conspiracy to hurt both Russia and China because Russia and China are blocking United States from bombing Iran and ceasing US Imperialism on oil rich countries.
BB---}}} America is trading thousands of American soldiers and millions of innocent lives of others for OIL!
BB---}}} 9/11 was an inside job orchestrated by US government with the help of Japanese government!
Here we see a contented conspiracy theorist whose gullibility allows them to have total understanding. Known around the blogosphere as "truthers", they have no credibility among their peers.
"911 was an inside job." Good slogan. And the Japanese too?
I'm glad "truthers" are siding with CCP on this one. Soul brothers.
Good discussion has broken out here. Tibetan struggle is not for separation - but if China handles it poorly, it will be so in future. China is still an empire of conquest, and the issue for Tibetans is a colonialism as ugly as any in the past.
Their situation is not so different from white-ruled South Africa, except that SA whites were actually born there. Few Chinese lived in Tibet when it was invaded, but now they rule it for China's benefit. China, the last colonial power.
agam4 2 years ago
3- I'm a New Zealander. I was born here. My heritage is Filipino and I am interested in my heritage but I really don't have any knowledge of Filipino politics. If there are injustices there then I am against them. But we are talking about Tibet... not Philippines
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
In these modern times Tibetans running Tibet could have a very high standard of living. However, materialism has never been the fundamental driving force for Tibetans. There's more than enough resources in Tibet for every Tibetan to live well. Tibet and I mean all of Tibet makes up about 17% of what China claims to be their territory. One more reason why Tibet will never be freed by the Chinese.
iamlumin 3 years ago
"tibetian wanting their country back..." lol what a properganda. if tibetian actually by some mircle get their "country back" they will immediately need international aid to sustain their "country", face it without chinese support, tibetian will remain below the povetry standard
mkfk1 3 years ago
If someone stole your country, would you want it back or not? Chinese patriots need to ask themselves this question. Much of the nationalist hysteria whipped up this summer is based on China's "shame" at having been exploited by stronger powers in the past, and isolated by them.
Now what makes these same people proud? Stealing someone else's country, exploiting it to the hilt, crushing anyone dissatisfied with this, and completely isolating it from the world.
No shame when it's needed.
agam4 3 years ago
First of all, u have to prove tibet is a country to justified that statment. For many dynasties, many provinces and district in china (including tibet) has been on and off under "chinese offical" rule. Because when revolution happens, different provinces took different sides. You cant prove tibet is a country from history, at best it is another provinces that goes on and off, like gondo, or HK or Macau. I am for greater freedom. But unresonably calling tibet a country is anooying history.
mkfk1 3 years ago
PS: mind my spelling, i am typing fast and no time to check spelling.
mkfk1 3 years ago
Broadly speaking, a nation is any community which shares an identity based on a common history, language, laws, culture which seeks political self-determination. Self-determination of nations (whether it be via statehood, representation in a democratic society or other means) is outlined in the UN Charter.
In other words... Tibet is a nation because they say they are and have seen themselves as distinct from the Chinese collective throughout history.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
According to the UN dictionary, sure, but not by history and politic.
So if tibetan say they are a nation they should have a nation, then how come native american dont have their nation? The aboriginal people in Canada? The native in Australia?
mkfk1 2 years ago
You're confusing the concept of nation with the concept of state.
But first of all... let me get this out of the way. The history of countries like New Zealand (my home country), Canada and the United States is SHAMEFUL.
The way in which the native nations WITHIN states in the West have self-determination is via Democracy which gives them a voice and via constitutional or legal protections against ALL immigrant and native national minorities.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
True, it gives them rights and a vote each. But it still doesnt give them their country.
And the last time I check, the natives in the US declining in population. They may literally goes extinct in a few more generation.
The free tibet issues, is quite racist when its discussed by white people. Is like it is ok for white people to invade, but not other people...
mkfk1 2 years ago
It gives them self-determination as a nation. That's the important thing and that's all the Dalai Lama is asking for.
As for the Free Tibet movement being racist? The Europeans have done some terrible things throughout HISTORY. But the Chinese are doing terrible things TODAY.
We have a saying in English...
"2 wrongs don't make a right"
Also please stop making it about the West against China. I'm not talking to you as a Westerner to a Chinese. I'm talking to you as a human to another human.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
But it is west vs China.
Why dont you have the guts to yell free native, free aboriginals, free brask population.
Cause this is classic double standard. This is modern world. Chinese people are not stupid. If you want free tibet, then free canada, free Australia, free the US.
mkfk1 2 years ago
Comment removed
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
I actually support Indigenous rights in all countries these countries. The issue in the West isn't so much about freedom though. These people are free to the extent that under Western laws they can practice their culture and religion. It's more about righting the wrongs that happened to them in the past. I support that.
China doesn't give them those rights.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
Having right does not equal they get their country back.
And tibetan has the same rights as regular Chinese. So I dont see why they should have more rights then other Chinese considering they are in the same country.
If this is a human right issue, then you should obviously renounce the Free tibet movement. Since free tibet is more or less a terrorist + splitist movement by definition.
But I dont expect white people to realize this. You people are good at double standard and racial bias.
mkfk1 2 years ago
1- I'm a New Zealander... but I'm not white. I'm Asian (Phillipines)-New Zealander.
2- Free Tibet is a human right issue because China is not giving Tibetan their human rights. It is not a terrorist movement it's a freedom movement.
3- It doesn't matter if they have the same rights as other Chinese... they are not Chinese. They are Tibetans. I'm starting to think that regular Chinese are oppressed though.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
1) You are still not Chinese. It is still an internal affairs.
2) Free tibet is a separatist movement. To liberate tibet to form a new country. Not human right. Google it if you dont believe me.
3) It matters, because Rights are universal. If you only care for tibetan rights, then you are racial bias. What about Chinese rights? What about natives? What about Filipino? Philippines is still a 3rd world country and is lacking living standard right. Maybe you should fight for a better phillipine?
mkfk1 2 years ago
1- It's not an excuse. I'm a human and I see China taking away human rights of Tibetans so I'm angry about that.
2- It's a seperatist movement as well as a human rights movement.
3- I don't only care for Tibetan rights... but this is what we're talking about. Stop trying to bring up other issues. You're just a stupid Chinese nationalist. I know many Chinese people in New Zealand and they are ashamed of China and they moved to NZ because China is not free.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
1) I am also angry about natives human rights, and new zealand natives human right. When are they getting their country back?
2)Seperatist movement is illegal and violate national internals affairs.
3) Then dont apply double standard. Tibet deserve to be free as much as natives or aboriginals. If you wont treat them the same, then you are racist and bias.
PS: Many fillinpos maids are also ashamed of them self as they seek better life in HK.
Sad that you wont admit to logical defeat.
mkfk1 2 years ago
1- Good. It is impossible for Maori to get their country back because they are now a minority. Instead we have given them political and cultural and religious freedom which all NZers are entitled to. That is all we ask China to give the Tibetan people. Except because the Tibetans are a MAJORITY in Tibet... political and cultural freedom probably equals independence. That is why it is not a double standard
2- It's not internal affairs. China invaded Tibet in the 1950's.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
1)Tibet is an TAR. Where is Maori autonomous region? China has given tibetan approprieate freedom in most field. Can you site an unbias report which actually proof that that tiebtan are suffering?
2)Its internal affairs. Tibet surrender 800 years ago. Read history. Dont spin.
3)Human rights is universal. If you isolate Tibet, it is still bias, and even racist.
Like I said, if you support free tibet, then you should have no problem with free natives, or aboriginal.
mkfk1 2 years ago
1- Can you cite an unbiased report? I consider the UN, NGO and independent accounts non-biased. Do you read anything I say? Maori have freedom and protection under law and exercise political will via Democracy. Tibetans don't have this freedom.
2- You read history. Conquest does not give you a right to occupy a country. Tibet was an independent country between 1911 and 1950. Furthermore Tibetans NEVER saw themselves as culturally Chinese. This is true with other minorities such Urghur.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
1) Yes, UN never isolate tibet. It is a report on whole of China. Others NGO are supported political motives. Such as free tibet and the past DL were funded by the CIA.
2) If conguest does not give the right to occupy, then tell me, when will Canada, US, Australia, New Zea...etc be free of White people? Natives and aboriginal people are NOT WHITE.
Like I said, people who support free tibet are usually bias, and racist. I dont expect much from people like you.
mkfk1 2 years ago
1- NGO only motives are humanist ones. CIA is an American agency. China and US used to be enemies during Mao.
2- You're an idiot. The situation is completely different. Settler nation-states have a native MINORITY. Freedom of cultural expression and religion as well as democracy is what we can give them. Tibetans are a MAJORITY in Tibet. China does not give them freedom to practice their culture or religion. China does not allow them to vote or control their region. It is not Autonomous.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
1) NGO are funded by political or economic groups. Their motives are questioned. You have no proof that tibetan rights, in any shape or forms are restricted. All you have are bias report from the BBC and CNN. Maori doesnt even have their autonomous region.
2) Your are a uneducated idiot who know have to curse because you are losing an argument. Natives got their land stolen from them. What good is right without their country? Tibetan is still a minority in CHINA. Tibet is a province.
mkfk1 2 years ago
1- I don't think you can say that NGO's have an agenda other than human rights etc. CNN is a private news corporation
2-I'm not losing an argument. I'm frustrated at your lack of humanity and ignorance. You lost your argument as soon as you tried to justify the injustice in Tibet by the injustices you percieve to be happening in the West. You already admit that it's wrong but you think that it is OK for China to behave like this because European did so up to the 19th Century.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
Also:
1)Maori got a vote, Tibetan got their own region, the TAR.
2) 1911-1950, all regions in China were fighting in ww2, or Chinese civil war. Tibet is one of the many regions.
mkfk1 2 years ago
1- Tibetan have their own region but no say in it. Tibetan religion is restricted, Tibetan language is not taught in schools, Tibetan history is not taught, Tibetans are restricted from freedom of speech. Maori have all these things Tibetans don't have.
2- Tibet declared itself independent in 1911 actually and formed it's own army and government.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
3- Human rights is universal. I'm not isolating Tibet. This video is about Tibet so I'm talking about Tibet.
I support a free Tibet. Like I said before I support Native and Aboriginal freedom and human freedom all over the world. The circumstances are different though for reasons I've stated before.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
3)The circumstances is that one is conquer by white people, the other is surrender to Mongolian, then later Chinese.
Like I sad, Tibetan have as much right for their country, as natives, and other aboriginal. If you are turely unbias, then you should be equally supportive for each of their cost.
If natives wont even get their own autonomous region, I dont see why tibet should get their own country. Infact, Tibetan has more rights then these natives in NA and Australia.
mkfk1 2 years ago
The circumstances are more different than that. The main one being Tibetans are a majority. Natives in settler states are minorities. Tibetans have more in common with former African colonies than settler nation states. Europe used to rule Africa but in the end because Africans are a majority in Africa... White people left Africa.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
2) Tibet independence in 1911 was not recognize. Same thing with kosovo, TW, and South Osetia. They dont have their own army, until 1950s when CIA help them set up a resistance forces, which was destroyed by the good people of the PLA. The 14th DL, was a member of the Chinese congress. I bet you dont know that.
Finally, white people did not leave NA or Australia or New zealand.
You are bias toward white people. Shame on you. White people are just people, I do not worshiped them. Do you?
mkfk1 2 years ago
Finally,
There are no difference between Africa or Canada, US, Australia. They are conquer by white people. The difference is that white people choose to stay in some, and leave on others.
mkfk1 2 years ago
This shows your ignorance. There are no more countries in the world ruled and oppressed by a white minority. If there were then I'd support freeing them too.
The countries in which there are white people but a native minority I support the rights of the minority.
That is the difference.
Anyway... like I said before... you already lost this argument when you tried to justify the evil things the Chinese are doing with the evil actions of European empires of the past.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
Saying you won the argument doesnt make it so.
I can say I am the president of the US, and noone would believe me.
This debate has prove that you are one who refuse to look at history and be unbias. Your entire rant on how white is justified meanwhile Chinese is not on past invasion is laughable, It shows how much of a white suck up you are.
Further more, if you are really of asian decent, then you may have a serious inferior complex.
Natives, aboriginals, the facts are all here. You loss.
mkfk1 2 years ago
PS: You lost this argument the moment you start cursing.
History and logic are based on solid ground.
Your hidden motive of bashing China was clear. Stop pretending like you care for Tibetan. You dont even give a shit for others natives or aboriginal who have their land stolen by white people.
That, is your biggest weakness.
mkfk1 2 years ago
It's a shame that your nationalism blinds you. I never justified European colonialism ever. Of course the Chinese nationalist narrative is all about how the West and Japan held China down.
Ironically the same sort of things the Japanese did in Manchuria which Chinese nationalists often complain about are the same things the Chinese did and are still doing to Tibetans to this day.
Anyway... I'm sorry I lost my temper. I hope you can find peace in your life.
I'm out.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
Thats alright, racist people like you should never debate about tibet in the first place. You obviously fail to give a fail and universal human rights persective for tibetan and other natives in this world. It is also obvious that you favour and justified white colonization, meanwhile impose a double standard on China.
If you only you agree that other white conquer counties deserve to be free, your argument would stand, and there is nothing I can say to justified tibet.
mkfk1 2 years ago
It was recognised by the Tibetans you idiot. Do you understand what self-determination means? It's in the UN charter.
I'm not going to entertain your ideas about settler states anymore. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about if you think that a practical solution to solving the plight of native people's in the West is to uproot the majority population descended of immigrants. A population that has been there for hundreds of years. That would be an injustice against human rights.
chinpokomon81 2 years ago
agam4: you are ignorance, you had nothing knew China history and you did not know how Tibet
joej2005 3 years ago
im pretty sure that 100 per cent arabs including peace and freedom loving arabs also hate the west
andrew3656 3 years ago
timee: Now I know you're just being silly. You're now making comparisons with no logical reason at all. Would you say the millions of Chinese who were displaced by flooding last flood season, were "left to die" by the CCP? Even I wouldn't say that.
If you were to say the hundreds of miners killed by lax safety standards were left to die by CCP, then I might agree.
Or the 140+ Tibetans who were killed by PAP (and PLA?) in the last 2 months were MADE to die by CCP, then I would very much agree.
agam4 3 years ago
what are you talking about?
you are just backing up what i said in my initial post.
yes the things you mentioned are china's problems. when did i say they were not? yes chinese govt needs to do more to sort out the country's injustices and other problems. why does YOUR govt and people like you feel a need to intervene in these problems far away when there are MANY MANY problems in your own countries?
timeesprit 3 years ago
timee: Yes problems are everywhere, and it's a global village. Right now the world is trying to intervene in Burma, not because there are no OTHER problems, but because those people are not cared for by their own gov't.
Democratic states do try to resolve human crises like this, because their own people demand they do. But even in a massive calamity like now in Burma, when the junta refuses world help, undemocratic states like China shield them from UN action. This is the difference.
agam4 3 years ago
oh by the way where did you get the figures for the 140 tibetans who died in the last 2 months?
have you forgotten how the events of the last 2 months started? have you conveniently avoided to talk about the han and muslim chinese who were killed by the tibetan rioters in march? did you forget about the 5 girls who died in the fire started by tibetan separatists? oh yeah they are not shown on your media are they
timeesprit 3 years ago
timee: I hit the remove instead of reply and lost your other comment, about how westerners are brainwashed into democracy (not suitable for Chinese you say). People in free countries have free inquiry, that's how children (and others) are encouraged to learn. It's not indoctrination, as the CCP is now trying to do with Tibetans. You should watch what's continuing to happen now, not just fixate on that one day of violence in Lhasa. CCP violence started before that, and continues right now.
agam4 3 years ago
as a chinese now i know why the arabs hate the west. the west really is in decline, they resort to self-righteuous arrogant nasty attacks and use excuses like tibet and even darfur to criticise our country...even dare to say they will boycott olympics in order to shame china! if you really want to shame china you europeans should win your country some more gold medals, or even bronze will be an improvement
timeesprit 3 years ago
timee: If you wish to equate yourself with those Arabs who do hate the west, maybe you'll also understand that freedom-loving people are as disgusted with Chinese Communist Party fundamentalists as they are with the murdering Islamist fundamentalists.
Many people in Muslim majority countries actually do value freedom - Indonesia for example. Iraqis are proving that most of them do as well.
Hey, YOU made the comparison! I would HOPE that not too many CCP'ers would see the world as you do.
agam4 3 years ago
i said i under why many arabs HATE the west, not i understand why many arabs BOMB the west. i am not talking about fundamentalists you dumbass. YOU're the one making that comparison, not me.
and i like how you call me a 'CCPer' - very inventive!
timeesprit 3 years ago
timee: If you read a little more SLOWLY, you'll see that I DIDN'T call you a CCP'er. I said I hope not too many of them see the world like you do.
The Arabs who HATE the west form aprox. 100% of those fundamentalist jihadis who BOMB - not just the west, but their own people too. That's not to say that 100% of HATERS are also BOMBERS. Get it?
If you "understand" the HATERS, do you also HATE for similar reasons then?
You are certainly the one that introduced this comparison, not me.
agam4 3 years ago
I have not big issues with these three gentalmen. One thing I disagree is that they use the word 'Chinese' to cover all ethnic groups in China but Tibetan. This is very much like to say British vs Scots.
samowang 3 years ago
of course chinese dont trust dalai lama..he's been an ally of CIA..maybe passively..but still..CIA has been conspiring and plotting against china just as in cuba(fact)...look what happened to middle-east when US gov. destablized iraq(which is a tiny nation)..i mean china is a superpower(not saying that war is obvious)..and yes boycotting is produce the worst outcome
1one1republic 3 years ago
1one1: There you go with conspiracies again. DL is an ally of Tibetans living under colonial rule. If US supports them too, great. Every free country should do so.
Boycott is basically personal. Which regimes will you support with your own money? I will always look for a product made in Thailand, Malaysia or Indonesia rather than China.
CCP doesn't trust DL because they're paranoid conspiracists too. He represents their absolute failure to brainwash Tibetans after 60 years of their rule.
agam4 3 years ago
the thing is very clear:if the young tibetans continue the violence, they make dalailama never come back, they kill their onw dailalama.
soustaker 3 years ago
OMG they actually got it right!!!!!!!!! boycotting oylmpics will do no good!!!! i keep arguing that!!!!!! yay i' glad there are people who actually knows how to improve internatinal relations and are not just blindingly asking for boycott!!!! 5 star they actually got it right!!!!!!!! take heed to this people!!!!!!!
assinne 3 years ago 2
That's funny. You just commented on Part 1 that "they really dont know anything". Five minutes later, they are brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111
Interesting.
agam4 3 years ago
lol beacuse they did make mistakes but they showed they knew some thing, part one was stupide comments, how can you mistake a huge group of chinese and ethnic groups that is stupide mistake and they shoulodnt make that, but they are telling the truth on part two.
assinne 3 years ago
Far Leftist propaganda on behalf of CCP is not permitted here.
agam4 3 years ago
EXILES are representing theocrat. Thye can never come back to China, never,never! They should stay in India and Canada and the US where they can get endless free stuff for ever!!!
cteru 3 years ago
theocrat in Tibet has to be destroyed completely. COMPLETELY! Only CCP is able to solve this problem. Theocrat is even worse than 18 centry europe. I strongly support CCP to reform Tibet, HARDER! It doesn't need that long, in 10 years. Tibetans people will be totally free from theocrat!
cteru 3 years ago
cteru:
Nobody wants theocracy, not HHDL, not the exiles, not the suffering people of Tibet. No one. Theocracy and feudalism is the CCP strawman. You wrote a few minutes ago that you know CCP lies to you, and you like it. Tibetans don't.
agam4 3 years ago
What Abrahm Lustgarten said about what Tibetan wants is true, I believe. Don't agree with the rest.
The notion "the train connecting China and Tibet" is wrong. They should say between Beijing and Tibet. Tibet is not a country. Only Abrahm Lustgarten used the term 'Beijing and Tibet'.
wyaotube 3 years ago
I'm not a believer of Western Media, but i have to admit that this one's a bit fairer than others. Maybe we have not give them the real respect as they deserve, by giving them more advantages over ourselves? but overall, they've got the point, that is, stability is good for everyone.
flight23nz 3 years ago
These people and media are trying hard to mislead people and give China bad image. If it is your goal, good job, but I don't think that will last long, more and more people don't trust western media anymore, even some western people who have been China don't agree with them. Even fell shame about their biased news...
icewine000000 3 years ago
To icewine000000,
I don't think one has to try very hard to make China look bad. China is doing a pretty good job doing that on its own. Blaming the media is a cheap excuse to ignore the real crimes China is committing against the Tibetan culture. If you want to talk about biased news, then maybe you should first take a look at the Chinese media.
iben26 3 years ago
Chinese Government try hard to help them to have a better life, build new building, schools there. Everyone want a good job, not only Tibetans, people from all the country, but they have to earn that, everyone have a equal chanch...
icewine000000 3 years ago
i thought it was suppose to be DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW???
BIASED!!!!!!
smartiexie 3 years ago
People who study Tibet and her history eventually conclude where the bias is really coming from. These are respected scholars of the subject. Com. Party points of view are written by ideologues who don't care about historical truth.
agam4 3 years ago
International Commission of Jurists Report on:
Tibet, 1960: "Tibet was...a de facto independent State... In examining the evidence....(official documents) demonstrated from 1913 to 1950 the conditions of statehood as generally accepted under international law. In 1950 there was a people..territory, and a government... conducting its own domestic affairs free from any outside authority...countries with whom Tibet had foreign relations...treated Tibet...as an independent State."
artandwine 3 years ago
In 1959, the International Commission of Jurists found there is prima facie evidence the Chinese Communists have by acts of genocide attempted to destroy the Tibetan nation and the Buddhist religion in Tibet... the Chinese have by killing Tibetans and by the forcible removal of Tibetan children committed acts contrary to the Genocide Convention of 1948. There is also evidence that these acts were intentionally directed towards the destruction of the Tibetan religion and the Tibetan nation.
artandwine 3 years ago
i am tring this.
bluesville2008 3 years ago
what is the next step of autonomous state? INDEPENCE, even pigs know that too
80735374 3 years ago
Does that mean you expect Hong Kong and Macau to eventually get independence?
Does it mean CCP would be lying if they ever offer genuine autonomy to entice Taiwan to re-enter the "motherland"? Thanks for the tip.
agam4 3 years ago
How much do you know about China?
1. HongKong and Macau is special district not autonomy according to China's law.
2. What Dalai requested and clearly spoken by Tibetan Youth is to get ultimate independence. Don't just listen to what he said but observe what he has done even for a so called "living god"
3. Taiwan is not going to be either special district nor antonomy.
rickleandleo 3 years ago
As I said, thanks for the tip.
agam4 3 years ago
U are partly right but not completely.
Lets refer to the Basic Law of HK
Article 1
The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is an inalienable part of the People's Republic of China.
Article 2
The National People's Congress authorizes the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to exercise a high degree of autonomy and enjoy executive, legislative and independent judicial power, including that of final adjudication, in accordance with the provisions of this Law.
bigoppai 3 years ago
BB---}}} Kosovo Independence and Tibet Terrorism was a conspiracy to hurt both Russia and China because Russia and China are blocking United States from bombing Iran and ceasing US Imperialism on oil rich countries.
BB---}}} America is trading thousands of American soldiers and millions of innocent lives of others for OIL!
BB---}}} 9/11 was an inside job orchestrated by US government with the help of Japanese government!
BB---}}} /watch?v=Odp1FO0Vmuw
onlytruth19 3 years ago
Here we see a contented conspiracy theorist whose gullibility allows them to have total understanding. Known around the blogosphere as "truthers", they have no credibility among their peers.
"911 was an inside job." Good slogan. And the Japanese too?
I'm glad "truthers" are siding with CCP on this one. Soul brothers.
agam4 3 years ago
And spam your truther theories elsewhere. Your first comment is for example purposes only.
agam4 3 years ago
onlytruth19
Your childish efforts to distract from this discussion about Tibet is noted.
Why would you pick such a name? onlytruth19?
Everyone knows you are onlylies. ;p)
nukedude2 3 years ago
sponsors Beijing Olympic are nervous. Their logo will damage with Beijing bloody hand on Tibet
mayyoubekind 3 years ago