RE: Libertarian Enslavement - Dr David R Barker on Freedomain Radio

[MaxZagar]

If a country really wants to be competitive, they would support all their young to study and learn various trades. They also would not charge any fees for learning, all the things learned would be open to share. Only in nations where you have high concentration of wealth to a few, it makes sense not to make knowledge available. It is pretty simple if you think about it. Why would anyone need to go into debt at all for learning, as everyone involved in the process benefit from it.

[Luiyi385]

We are like cattle inside a fence being fed and exploited (and fooled).

[Rickdeckard2020]

So called "Freemarket" "Libertarians" often give the impression they're money fetishists that want the freedom to exploit other human beings to get more of the money fetish, but the "lets legalize slavery" takes the cake (to the bakery to see the other fruit cakes). Astounding.

We should seek to build a society where food, housing, reasonable comforts, health care and education are available for free and where people volunteer to help the community and help design

[Alexiscom1]

@Rickdeckard2020 "where food, housing, reasonable comforts, health care and education are available for free" Do you prefer to be tax by force trough gov mandate or share on voluntary base?

Gov insure the involuntary wealth transfer today and we have more poverty than under voluntary charity. Why you think poverty is growing ?

I dont agree that food, housing etc is free someone is paying

[Rickdeckard2020]

Hi Alex

"Why you think poverty is growing ?"

Neoliberal anti-labor pro-rich outsourcing neofeudal policies. Taxes were Much Higher in the 60s and 70s, and there was Much less poverty, a single income, that is One parent could earn a living and pay for a house car and family, the government could build entire schools, hospitals and bridges without going crazy into debt because it could issue money. Then outsourcing etc

[Rickdeckard2020]

I dont think the system we have now is functional, it needs to be more democratic and focus more on quality of life. We can start by investing in housing etc instead of war, and stop the public debt fraud of paying interest on money that should be issued for infrastructure that benefits quality of life, imo with a long term goal of gradually getting closer to a decentralized democratic network variant of a resource based economy (venus project, zeitgeist movement, star trek),

cheers

[MaxZagar]

Barker is really insane, totally naive, or then he has an own agenda. Banks and companies issuing their own currency is embedded for fraud. Anyway, companies issue their own currency today, via for example lunch coupons. It really is incredible how far away these people is from the reality of the common man. Then he lies in peoples face to say that somehow the state is in control of creating and issuing currency. This may apply for Iran and India, but not for those who rely on the USD.

[Alexiscom1]

@MaxZagar I just like the idea of competition, because Gov monopoly on the fiat is creating all kind of abuses.

If not companies who you think should have issuance on the money that you are using ?

I have no prob to use silver and gold coins in circulation but to have the fiat in addition of that would facilitate the trade.

[MaxZagar]

@Alexiscom1 Government, does not control fiat today, except for "free" countries who have their own oil/resource reserves. Others depend on USD, which is linked to big banks. In essence we now have the scenario that barker speaks about. We know where this has led us, i.e. to endless war and domination. Many would want the power to issue currency, but actually the issuance of currency should be to the benefit of the nation not just a few private interests. U r right about the metals

[def44]

You talk of voluntary contract. I was given no such option when born into the system of UK. There are 68,000 statutes here, none of which I have found any evidence that I am obligated to abide by.

[Alexiscom1]

@def44 State is forcing on the citizens involuntary contracts that is a form of slavery.

[edAVP1138]

I think its an interesting concept but when you look into the book that he was referencing it turns out that they used some bad data from only one plantation and used that to show that all plantations were economically viable which when you look at other data isn't actually true.

[Alexiscom1]

@edAVP1138 I have not read the book I agree that slave labor can not as productive as a free labor. He is talking of voluntary slavery but this is different form of it.

[acuriousbeast]

I just want you to know my last comment I wasn't referring to you. I saw that show come up and didn't even bother to watch it based on the title. 'Libertarian enslavement' sounds very contradictory to what Libertarianism actually stands for.

[YouriCarma]

It's a sad story but the truth. Good thinking.

[BUTTERTOOTHPUNK]

I am not ure that I am following you. If we legalize slavery, even though I concede it exists in every corner on earth, it would allow those in power to perpetually retain that power. The young and impoverished would be too easilly taken advantage of. Please explain exactly, in writing, what you are suggesting as I am having trouble understanding.

[jeffiek]

@BUTTERTOOTHPUNK The video that this is a response too has more details.

It is a discussion ( theoretical ) about what would the results of a society that does not initiate force, i.e. no state.

"it would allow those in power to perpetually retain that power." This is an unfounded assertion.

"The young and impoverished would be too easilly taken advantage of."

Compared to what? Being born into debt? Have you noticed what the "civilized" world burdens their children with?

[Alexiscom1]

@BUTTERTOOTHPUNK I am suggesting to legalize contract where people can pledge % of their future income as a collateral as well voluntary service to the loan issuer on mutually agreed conditions in case of the borrow default.

[acuriousbeast]

People today misuse the term slavery. Slavery is involuntary servitude with no financial compensation. The classic one is 'wage-slave'. The problem with that is if you're being paid a wage you are not a slave plus if you can quit and leave you are not a slave. Force is another one. I heard someone recently talking about how his father was 'forced' to work in the steel mills under horrible conditions. Compelled by circumstances perhaps, but he wasn't forced.

People do that for dramatic effect.

[Alexiscom1]

@acuriousbeast We are talking about the situation where you can quit until debt is repaid but you have been paid up front and you fail to repay.

I would refer to sell organs as a form of slavery because it is very unfear trade, legalizing it would diminish the abuse of the donors. People are sold for money take US inmates at 21 c per hour.

[acuriousbeast]

@Alexiscom1 I should have listened to the original video before making the comment. I would agree with no being allowed to quit until the debt is paid off for the most part. A percentage of future earnings to a patron is perfectly fair. In fact that's how patronage often worked. The organ selling is some of the worst exploitation. I was watching a show on that and just had to turn it off, it was so bad.

Forgive my poor listening skills for that day.

[Alexiscom1]

@acuriousbeast I also mean " can not quit before debt is repaid " not " Can quit". It mean that work may be involuntary. I think that the contract should define what the borrow will be obligated to do if he can not repay in time. I am wondering how those contracts will be unforced if those people disobey it has to be severe consequence otherwise the investor is not protected.

[acuriousbeast]

@Alexiscom1 That's part of the dilemma with those types of arrangements. Imprisonment would not pay back the investor. Liens maybe or future wage garnishment? Forced labor would probably comprise the quality of the end product.

I'm not sure. It's better with physical collateral. I found if I need to borrow money and I offer collateral it's easier. I once gave a friend of mine a gold coin as collateral. He said, ' I really hope you don't pay me back' & he looked kind of sad when I paid my loan.

[moleccccular]

hmm, if you (or someone else by proxy) forces someone to work for compensating for damages you suffered, then this would not "voluntary slavery", as you said in the beginning in order to relativize your stance on slavery. I do not have an opinion on this myself yet.