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From: ExtraCreditz
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  • 4:46 I like how he showed a fan-made case, instead of an official one. Just saying.

  • That ending music makes me want to listen to streets of rage music.

  • Those two british guys remind me of the decline of gaming.

  • I'd agree with this but i think indie titles need advertising more then polish. I mean look at the indie titles that get funded and distributed through the indie bundle. The indie games that steer the bundles explode into popularity. Super meat boy, cave story, world of goo, etc... The indie community faces the same distribution channels of the larger industries junk content and gimmicks. XBL, iPhone, android market, etc... Show me a steam owner that doesn't own at least 5 decent indie titles.

  • @ggcpres

    True as that may be, and it is, that incident may have been a huge decider in the move.

  • GASP!!!! you mentioned dwarf fortress!

    ...

    Why didn't you have it's name shown while the image was up?

  • much love to this show.

  • I'd rather the AAA studios kept the fuck away from my Indie games. Maybe I like indie games because they're nothing like the AAA studio rehashed crap. Giving EA full control of the IP would let them just apply a layer of rehashed crap to whatever the Indie guys came out with. "Cool game, but not enough brown and bloom". Steam is probably better for the indie guys than any big name studio's backing. At least Steam isn't going to steal the good ideas for themselves. Screw James' plan.

  • @arleas Portal was developed in a similar manner to James's plan. They made a small title based on the idea and then when it was successful they were thrown a budget for a much larger game. Though the team that was hired to do the project had made portal tech game in there course before hand. Still stands that innovation can happen by working together.

  • @greeniekin Valve isn't EA (thank God!). I trust valve quite a bit more than I do EA or Actiblizzion or even Squeenix. They're not immune to making mistakes but they're not nearly as bad about it as the others are.

  • @arleas Valve is still a AAA studio. They implemented a plan like James's plan and it worked fantastically. If EA implements it correctly it will still produce great indie games that are not like AAA games but with benefit of extra polish. Only if they follow the rule of not micro managing the team(as was said in the video). I'm not here to say if they will or will not, but that it can work. It will never kill completely independent games, just a new branch.

  • @greeniekin You missed the point. I don't trust most AAA studios. I only trust Valve because they haven't screwed up badly (yet...). If EA were the ones who took portal and published it, I'd expect it would be significantly different from the game we have now. I don't know for sure, but I'm betting that EA and Valve have radically different views on how games should be published. Still, I prefer my indie games INDEPENDENT. Whatever...Keep cheerleading for the big studios.

  • @arleas Your missing my point completely. I'm not cheer leading for big studios. I do not get why you would give me that attitude. I have not said anything harsh against anyone. I gave clear info with evidence. I'm just saying James's plan is VALID. It has been used effectively. It could be used by other AAA. There is no reason why supported and unsupported games can not co-exist. I said nothing about which studio could do it correctly.Lots of failure probably means they didn't follow the plan.

  • Whatever dude... I don't care. I've already said all I have to say on the subject.

  • @arleas Your right you have said all you have to say. Y

    Which is a childish "no your wrong". With no reasoning and nothing to back it up.

    While I provided reasoning and evidence. I suppose I shouldn't be too critical.

    You could still be in high school or younger.

  • @greeniekin Did I say you were wrong? I said I disagreed with the idea of James's Plan. Then you said "Portal" and I said "Valve is not the same as EA or Square Enix, or Activision" and then you tried to say Valve WAS the same thing (Valve isn't a publicly traded company for one thing and has a different core philosophy for another).

    I never said "your wrong". If I had, I would have said "you're wrong". I said "I disagree". Sorry it was so difficult for you to understand.

  • @arleas sorry and lets both calm down a minute. I think your saying EA does not have the right philosophy in that they would not allow the indie arm any independence. Demand games and approval for all there projects. Therefore crushing the creative spark. These points probably are true now. Though these points are also things that James said you can not do. So both our points are valid. Also a lot of current indie games work then try get some cash from a publisher to continue. This simplifies it

  • SEGA figured a bit of this out with SCD2011... but that's a fan thing, too.

    Sometimes you just need to open your eyes and bring people onboard... consider what CTDS would've been if Square didn't C&D ressurection

  • why wasnt this uploaded on patv?

  • @spiderk132 It was. Season 1, episode 3.

  • Coo drawings brah, do it again.

  • You know what would be amazing, but would likely take forever? If Alison where to draw an episode in her normal style, the style she uses for her normal art under BeastofOblivion. That would be epic to say the very least.

  • Wheres the link?

  • why the heck is the vid not loading -.-

  • The problem I have with James' plan is that it completely stifles the growth of new companies. Any indie studio given funding that has fantastic ideas has it's IPs taken from it the moment they show potential, and are given to already established studios. Those indie studios will never be able to establish themselves as a major studio because they can never produce a sequel, and are therefore unable to refine and improve any idea they have. Instead, we will get someone else's vision.

  • I liked the cute stick figures better, in case you wanted fan opinions.

  • @SAlpsu Um, they just did that because the video title is called innovation... so... 

  • @AGentertainment Right I could tell, but innovation can be good or bad, so I'm just giving some feedback. I don't think the new way is bad, I just liked the old way better.

  • Why are people down on chocolate and peanut butter? Have they never eaten a Reeses cup?

    Anyway, nice classic EC, guys.

  • This seems familiar.

    I have this odd feeling we've been here before...

    Are we doing this again?

    We're seriously doing this again.

    And now this is happening.

    Guess there's no reason to complain about a re-run, it's off it's normal day anyway.

    I'm just curious about... why?

  • @OroCrimson These aren't meant as new videos, moron.... They're just posting the existing ones on YouTube/Extra Credits website. They still upload a new one every week to Penny Arcade.

  • @TheFiliusMortis I don't see why you called me a moron.

    I never said it was meant as a new video.

    And I even stated that I'm not surprised considering it wasn't their usual day.

    Just I thought they weren't using YouTube anymore.

    I mean, they use PATV for their videos on their site last I checked.

    I was just wondering why they started reuploading to YouTube all of a sudden.

    Thanks for the insult and the assumption though! Hope it made you feel good.

  • @OroCrimson Maybe your sentences.

    Would make more sense.

    If you didn't.

    Type like this.

    It's a bit annoying.

    In fact.

    

  • @TheFiliusMortis Aw, isn't that a shame?

    I tend to only do that between sentences though.

    Not midsentence like you just did.

    It keeps things neat ^^

  • chocolate+peanut butter=eww

  • Why on earth would you mix chocolate and peanut butter?

  • @karntom101

    Well, if you don't like them then I'll take all your Reese Peanut Butter Cups off your hands.

  • I feel like I've seen this

  • They talk waaayyy too slowly......too much Zero Punctuation

  • Grand Theft? Fallout? Call of Duty? Are you kidding me? Not having these titles would be a profound boon for the gaming medium! I find your taste in games questionable, to say the least. And have you played any of the recent Final Fantasy games? Final Fantasy stopped being good years ago!

    But of course, that's my opinion. I'm just shocked that you think those particular games have any value.

  • @The1truesushiboy I must disagree good sir. GTA basically STARTED the 3D Sandbox genre, while Call of Duty, as bad as it may be, did bring in some goods to the table. As for fallout...well, nothing beats a good RPG.

  • @AbsoluteGuardian GTA had the most prominent impact on society, as far as open world games go, but it HARDLY started the genre. They've existed since over a decade before the first GTA game.

  • @The1truesushiboy Think about it. Without those games, how many people who play games today WOULDN'T be playing games?

    They're not saying the games have value, or even whether or not they like them. They're saying that they're industry milestones that brought in thousands of new consumers.

  • @YtseJam214 They did bring in consumers. That's a point I'm willing to concede.

  • ***

    Where is the link to James' plan???

    ***

  • In DnD terms: a AAA studio always takes a 10, while an Indie one takes it's chance with the d20 roll ^_^

  • it would be so awesome if publishers would listen to you, but i doubt that:(

  • Ahem. o.0 I'm fairly certain I have seen the fisrt part of this.

  • Mojang anyone?

  • outro music sounds like streets of rage

  • Can I get a shoutout for Wolfire games and the Humble Indie Bundles? Fantastic business model and really solid team

  • I'm getting some major deja vu here. I think i've watched too many episodes. Can't help but shake the feeling the content of this episode was somewhere else...

  • @aTerranWraith I get the same feeling, I think they've done this episode in some form before.

  • wow.. why aren't you guys in charge of the gaming industry??? seriously!

    ^_^

    Great show guys! (and gal!) Wonderful idea!

  • The stock photo @ 1:04 made me laugh.

  • I've been following you guys since your youtube days, and it's been absolutely fantastic to learn from your videos.

    which makes me wonder if you are going to remake these videos for people to see!

  • New art style was cool.

  • Man f*ck the industry. I'll open source my project and self promote myself. Google for Ancient Beast and keep up with the progress :)

  • Some publishers already do this. Look at Paradox and their support for Magicka & Penumbra (and I guess Pirates of the black cove...). WB helped support Bastion. And you can stretch things a little and point at Valve & Portal (and the people they hired in order to make the two portal games).

  • Any chance the next change along with the art style is you finally dropping the weird voice distortion?

  • @iNerdier

    I think it's a little late for them to change that. Besides, I think most people like the sped up voice.

  • @Soulsphere001 Oh possibly, there just seems to be little reason for it. If they're willing to change the art, why not the voice. It's only a subtle thing and I'm a fan of them either way, just throwing it out there.

  • @iNerdier

    They changed the art briefly. This is the only episode where Alison picked a different art style.

    I don't think that kind of a change would be as subtle as you think.

  • Why isn't this up on PATV?

  • @Simmsville

    It is. You need to look at the first season, not the second or third.

  • @Simmsville pennyarcade/patv/episode/innov­ation

  • Is this the episode you made when Allison got better?

  • @Ruach

    No, this is way back in season one. It's the third episode they originally uploaded to The Escapist.

  • So, about that plan, what's in it for the indie developers except loosing their IP, making less money than other devs and not profiting from a success as much (Notch. 'nuff said.)?

    Other funding models, like the one used for Minecraft, are far better for the people who actually make the games happen, and therefore better for the industry. Companies like Valve and Mojang can do whatever they want on a moderate to big budget without having to answer to EA or Activision bigwigs.

  • @kshadehyaena it means they get paid, don't have to worry about publishing and focus on development. It also means that if their title doesn't turn out to be goldminecraft, which it usually won't, they still make a living.

    Essentially it allows you to experiment with game design without the pressure of it having to be a financial succes or die of starvation.

  • @kshadehyaena Very few indie games will ever reach the huge success that is Minecraft. With big company support the indies might be able to afford creating the games that they want, without risking their homes in the process. Minecraft is a special game in how it was created, many games can't have an ongoing alpha/beta product on sale like that (some others try, like Xenonauts, but few actually reach any real level of success before they go on sale, or at all for that matter).

  • CoD? A loss? /lol

  • I'm sad there's no link to James master plan!

  • avaaz.org/en/eu_save_the_inter­net_spread/?tta

  • so...where is the link? we've been waiting for how much? 3 years?

  • My favorite episode is the one about music in games :)

  • @shalaq

    I think mine might be the one where they talk about the Mass Effect 2 choice, or perhaps the one on Missile Command.

  • @Soulsphere001 I loved the Missile Command episode. *goes to watch it again*

  • PopCap has an indie branch called 4th and Battery.

    PopCap is pretty awesome!

  • So do you have that link to the list? Its not in the description.

  • awesome idea to put old episodes to youtube so people that haven't herd of them can find it. and when they want to see the new episodes, they have to go to penny arcade :D great job EC!

  • I have to say that taking Indie IPs and handing them over to big publishers would largely be a terrible idea. I'd rather see a return of IPs to their actual creators, with publishers being largely phased out in favor of self-publishing through various online services. The best (and cheapest) way to make people aware of your game these days is word of mouth anyway.

  • @TheJediMB - I think EC already did an episode on "publishing" which concerns the issue you're speaking of.

  • "Doesn't Valve do this to some degree?"

    Valve does a lot of things other companies don't. It's called "being a good company." EA and Activision are MASSVIE though. They are the ones that really need to listen to this.

  • can't believe i forgot about this video , why hasn't this happened yet?......

  • James is L and Navi is um... see for yourself: 4:01

  • @ExtraCreditz You forgot to link Jame's list in the description.

  • Like the new outro music

  • Some of the end of this sounds kinda evil to my naive side

    <.<

    I recognize the necessity but I can see people taking offense at it, lol

  • "Emulate things that are popular" "copying what's already popular helps to keep the books in the black"

    I'M LOOKING AT YOU ACTIVISION.

  • Doesn't Valve do this to some degree? Isn't that how Portal was made? And where the new gameplay features for Portal 2 came from?

  • @CerebralStasis pretty sure original ep. was made before portal

  • @thesmellanator Nope.

  • @thesmellanator at least before portal 2

  • @CerebralStasis Pretty much all their criticism contains the post-script: "Except Valve"

  • @CerebralStasis True, but I don't quite think Valve is doing on quite the scale that they're talking about. They also don't really have that dedicated indie branch.

  • @CerebralStasis no the new stuff from portal 2 came from a student dev team that valve hired

  • @CerebralStasis how is portal 2 not a triple A game?

  • @CerebralStasis

    that would be the exeption to the rule.

  • @CerebralStasis VALVe sees blossoming talent in the indie and mod communities and recruits them to turn their small ideas into AAA blockbusters. Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, Alien Swarm, and Team Fortress all started as mods. Portal was based on the final homework assignment for a group of DigiPen students. Portal 2's gel mechanic was also based on another DigiPen project. Half-Life 1 was the first pro work for many of the devs & full of crazy ideas that had never been done.

  • @CerebralStasis yes very much indeed also many from the original team are on the next team.

  • @CerebralStasis Well considering that they are currently working once again on a AAA-version of a mod and hired the guy who has been working on it for years, yes indeed. They have often hired modders and students with a vision. Another example would be Double Fine. After Brütal Legend, they made smaller groups and developed Trenched, Costume Quest, Stacking...great litle games!

  • @RagnaroekChaos You beat me to the punch! I was going to use Double Fine as an example of having smaller groups to develop little great games. X3 Hopefully more studios in the future will develop this model, thus making more awesome indie games for us to purchase and play!

  • I love the pictures you guys use! I'm constantly pressing pause to look at them more closely

  • ending was awesome

  • Don't worry, we know it wasn't made on $5, it only looks and feels like it was made on $5!

  • while not to the degree that you guys are taking about, EA sort of has a indie branch, it's EA partners program which while not exactly help for indies per say it's great for the smaller devs like double fine and grasshopper manufacturer, and i feel it's a great stepping stone troward the types of things you outline here.

  • Look at Minecraft, amazing indie game that was made on a $5 budget and they're STILL adding stuff to it making more and more better.

    PS: So I don't get flamed, I KNOW Minecraft wasn't made on $5, I'm not a retard.

  • The Escapist made a big mistake to let you guys go

  • @Tenkagethewise They left the escapist.

  • @Tenkagethewise They didn't let them go, as they left due to "financial issues"

  • @Tenkagethewise Be thankful they didn't stay there... After all don't forget that the Escapist hadn't paid them for a year AND it owned their IP. Going independant had its drawbacks but now they have their IP back.

  • @Tenkagethewise " to let you go" sounds much better than "to screw you over"

  • @Tenkagethewise I don't think they let them go, I think they just left... It's a complicated issue involving money, the original agreement they had with The Escapist, and Allison's unfortunate accident...

  • @Tenkagethewise Easy to say for someone who doesn't know -anything- about the situation.

  • @Tenkagethewise Ok I get it, so people don't like this comment, and yes I'm fucking aware that they left, what I meant with the comment was that the Escapist should have been more caring about our favorite artist, rather then letting the team go

  • @Tenkagethewise Exactly, don't see why people viewed this as negative.

  • @Tenkagethewise They didn't "let them go", they wanted part of the donation for Alison's arm surgery!

  • @TheTundraTerror

    its a bit more complicated than that. to oversimplify a bit, EC treated the escapist like they were buddies instead of business partners. a major lack of contracts and lawyers is what killed it.

  • You guys are brilliant!

  • I love Extra Creditz/Credits.

  • you guys are awesome, even watching your old videos seems insightful :)

  • first comment! just wanna say you guys are amazing...I want to become a game developer (in fact Im attending the Global Game Jam tomorrow in my country, Colombia) the passion you put in EVERY episode gives me motivation! plus a learn a lot too :)

  • FIRST!

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