She is a shocker, but typical. I dont know exactly why it is of the right, but they,just cant seem to argue rationally or honestly. Living in denial, ashamed to stand up for their convictions or just sheer bloody ignorance?? Probably all of the above.
It's ironic that you criticise ignorance when your comment is loaded with it. I've only ever lost one argument, to a fellow rightist over the issue of Israel. But leftists are pathetically easy to dispatch, as I'm sure you'll prove if you care to respond.
I disagree with the attempt to lay 100% of the blame at Israel's door. I disagree with the attempt to portray the Palestinians as completely innocent victims in this affair.
Partly true of course, but it goes back beyond 1948 to 1917 and the Balfour Declaration. The British Mandate of Palestine was composed of what today makes up Israel and Jordan. Jordan makes up 80% of this territory and was Palestinian land. I don't agree with an Israel for Jews only (neither does Israel incidentally, with its 20% Arab population), and it should treat Palestinians better than dogs, but the Palestinian leadership can be blamed also.
Hold fresh elections as it was supposed to do. Democracy is about accepting defeat aswell as winning. They shouldn't throw moderates from rooftops and they shouldn't used young Palestinians and women as human shields because they are too fucking cowardly too face the Israeli's face to face. They should renounce their aim of trying to kill every Jew in the world.
@Bastiat90 - are there you have it. You criticise Hamas for not being able to achieve peace yet you offer nothing as an alternative. You are a really shit debater.
Do you think Hamas want peace? They throw Fatah politicians from fucking rooftops! They execute Arab oppositionists to their cause. Hamas cannot achieve peace because it doesn't want peace. Are you really that fucking stupid?
..And the Israelis assasinate Palestinian leadership WHILE they're in prison; with air strikes - is that not for more appalling and contemptuous of International Law?
As for Hamas, their tactics(Like that of the Israeli leadership, hatred of whom they depend on - and it's there, from the survivors of Jenin and all the dozens of other massacres; of which there is no Israeli counterpart)are despicable - but it's clear that they would abide by International Law in regard to Palestine
Also, so long as the U.S Government gives uncritical and unremitting support to Israel (No matter what it does) and the U.S (And largely International) Media give Israel a free ride - the Israelis aren't going to be punished. Know what else sucks?
They probably never will be, there will probably never be a Palestinian State and as we speak the idea is being tossed around in the Knesset of ethnic cleansing against Bedouins inside Israel..
Do you have anything constructive to say on what the Palestinian leadership should do or are you commenting to utter vacuous elementary moral principles?
As for murder 'being the same' - the death ratio (Palestinians / Israelis) is about 500 to 1 and the tiny amount of Israeli deaths are almost exclusively in direct response to Israeli assaults. So it's not ''all the same'' Mr. Rational.. not when one side is over-whelmingly crushing the other and generating hostilities.
Well, I'd like to erase Israel as a Jewish state: it's a form of racism (we called it thus when Hitler tried to make Germany an Aryan country). But do I trust those nutcases in Hamas to honour a fair deal? No... their grievance is not with Israel but with the presence of Jews in the Middle East. More Jews were expelled after 1948 than Arabs in the Naqba. About 200,000 more. Millennia old countries in Baghdad and Syria just wiped from the map. Do I trust these people... no
Well...Hamas has nothing to do with the acts you've just described - so your argument is a non-sequitur.
Unless ''These people'' is a coy reference to *all* Muslims and it's a corrolary that you distrust all Muslims; then your argument isn't worth anything.
There's a reason why more than half of Israel's population consists of Jews from other Arab Countries - precisely the reason you've just given. Out of 1,000,000 Jews who were kicked out or left, more than 600,000 got to Israel.
Anyways, it's Israel and the U.S that have unilaterally blocked any and all Diplomatic settlement for over 30 Years now - it's Israel and the U.S that Vote AGAINST THE WORLD around every 2 Years on the issue of Palestine - It's Hamas who committed to a Ceasefire which the Israelis broke - It's Hamas who say they would abide by U.N 242 and UN 647 - not Israel or the U.S - it's Hamas that say they respect the Two-State proposal accepted by the rest of the World - not Israel.
Remember, not a single Israeli had been killed (Or even injured) when they bombarded Lebanon for the 7th time in 2006 to ''Defend Israel which was being subject to seige Warfare by Katyusha rockets'' - all this talk about ''Oh well Hamas are x and y..'' isn't dealing with the fundamental issues.
First of all, Hamas are the elected Goverment (One of not so many in the Arab World) - you have to deal with them, the Israelis even tried to before..
Netanyahu is treated scyophantically when he goes to AIPAC conferences, or any conference in the U.S for that matter - the media fawn on him and quote him in full.
When there's some news about Hamas to report, it doesn't even get reported - unless they've committed an attrocity and it can be used for a propanda line against them.
Netenyahu is allowed to renege on his agreements entirely, without Press comment - Hamas are held to 3 Conditions by the Press that he is NOT.
Namely 1) They must recognize Israel before the U.S deals with them..
(The U.S and Israel meanwhile have no intention of recognizing Palestine'
2) They must renounce violence.
(Which the U.S and Israel have no intention of doing, the U.S continues to provide deep Economic, Military, Diplomatic and Political support for Israeli brutality)
3) They must 'abide by previous agreements' - despite the fact it was THEM who terminated the last talks when they got to close to progress.
1) They did recognise Israel I believe: Edward Said is instrumental in the decision. I think it happened in the late 80's or early 90's.
2) I think this is a pre-requisite, but I accept that Israel has not done what it says it will. Violence when defending property is fine, but some use the Palestinians to carry on their agenda of killing Jews. This is what I criticise: some would establish a giant pogrom in Israel given the chance.
3) And the fact that it's Israel and the U.S vis-a-vis the Security Council that block implimentation of U.N 242 and U.N 647 - as well as of the Geneva accords which criminalizes the action of putting your own population into conquered territories and respectively, the aquisition of territory through Warfare; Israel is a small Country that *could* be stopped by the Don/U.S in a second, but it won't - it probably never will be.
You have completely failed to see my message: such myopia is not healthy. I do not want an Israeli state... I'd prefer a secular state within whose borders Arabs and Jews can live. Israel's crimes are self-evident and more than enough attention has been paid to them, whereas the crimes of Hamas and the militant Islamists go uncovered because the media is scared of being branded racist as a consequence of negative portrayal of Arabs.
When they thought Hamas wouldn't make any trouble, they tried to use Hamas as a ''Counter-weight'' against the PLO (Before they brutally murdered them with 20,000 deaths in 1982 w/ NATO/U.S support) who *were* making trouble for them..
Hell, Israel invaded another of their Neighboors JUST to knock out an independant Palestinian Political force and you're going to tell me Hamas is the problem?
..And the Colonies for Jews and Jews only, and the Roads for Jews and Jews only that lead to them and the division of the entire non-state of Palestine into cantons, literally dividing and conquering them - while building new Colonies as we speak and continually refusing to quit building in East Jerusalem and contining to block any and all measures that lead to a Palestinian State...
Like them or not, Hamas would abide by Resolution 242 and the Geneva Convention- Israeli will not.
As for not wanting peace, who cancelled negotiations in 2000 when Palestine came closer than ever to being resolved.. the Israelis of course. Who assasinated their own Prime Minister for moving too close to resolving Palestine? The Israelis! Whose Parliament hasn't functioned in 2 Years because of continual Israeli assasination of Politicians? The Palestinians!
Son,you really have to go and read some Robert Fisk articles..maybe a few books by Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein.
Tariq is right .. I am one of the people who thought Obama was really "change" ..
amareto35 3 months ago
She is a shocker, but typical. I dont know exactly why it is of the right, but they,just cant seem to argue rationally or honestly. Living in denial, ashamed to stand up for their convictions or just sheer bloody ignorance?? Probably all of the above.
radoa1 8 months ago
It's ironic that you criticise ignorance when your comment is loaded with it. I've only ever lost one argument, to a fellow rightist over the issue of Israel. But leftists are pathetically easy to dispatch, as I'm sure you'll prove if you care to respond.
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 - lets see you try putz. What did Tariq say that was "untrue" ??
radoa1 3 months ago
I was talking about you melon-head. Tariq Ali is right on foreign policy, just a complete dunderhead on economics and domestic politics
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 - and there you have it putz. Why is he wrong on economics and domestic politics?????
radoa1 3 months ago
Because he believes in socialist economics. Simple as. But again, I was talking about you
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 so what? Seems like you also agree on his foreign policy view of Israel from your posting.
radoa1 3 months ago
Not quite but some aspects. Used to be a hardline Zionist until a friend destroyed me in a debate
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 which "aspects" do you disagree with?? How's you socialist discourse these days??
radoa1 3 months ago
Better than your grammatical discourse it seems.
I disagree with the attempt to lay 100% of the blame at Israel's door. I disagree with the attempt to portray the Palestinians as completely innocent victims in this affair.
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 If Israel hadn't stolen the land in the first place, there wouldn't be a problem. Fuck Israel.
weegiebam 3 months ago
Partly true of course, but it goes back beyond 1948 to 1917 and the Balfour Declaration. The British Mandate of Palestine was composed of what today makes up Israel and Jordan. Jordan makes up 80% of this territory and was Palestinian land. I don't agree with an Israel for Jews only (neither does Israel incidentally, with its 20% Arab population), and it should treat Palestinians better than dogs, but the Palestinian leadership can be blamed also.
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 then what should the govt of Hamas do??
radoa1 3 months ago
Hold fresh elections as it was supposed to do. Democracy is about accepting defeat aswell as winning. They shouldn't throw moderates from rooftops and they shouldn't used young Palestinians and women as human shields because they are too fucking cowardly too face the Israeli's face to face. They should renounce their aim of trying to kill every Jew in the world.
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 pretty lightweight on the assessment there Bast. If we take what you say is true, (which I know is not), this would end the occupation???
radoa1 3 months ago
I don't know when the occupations and settlements will end. I'd be a fool to claim otherwise
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 - are there you have it. You criticise Hamas for not being able to achieve peace yet you offer nothing as an alternative. You are a really shit debater.
radoa1 3 months ago
Do you think Hamas want peace? They throw Fatah politicians from fucking rooftops! They execute Arab oppositionists to their cause. Hamas cannot achieve peace because it doesn't want peace. Are you really that fucking stupid?
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 then in that case - what should they do to end the occupation??
radoa1 3 months ago
Who, the Israelis or Hamas?
Bastiat90 3 months ago
@Bastiat90 follow the thread. You say the Palestinians must take some blame. What should Hamas do to end the occupation??
radoa1 3 months ago
@Bastiat90
..And the Israelis assasinate Palestinian leadership WHILE they're in prison; with air strikes - is that not for more appalling and contemptuous of International Law?
As for Hamas, their tactics(Like that of the Israeli leadership, hatred of whom they depend on - and it's there, from the survivors of Jenin and all the dozens of other massacres; of which there is no Israeli counterpart)are despicable - but it's clear that they would abide by International Law in regard to Palestine
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
Indeed; bring them to justice too. But all evil needs to be treated the same. Murder is murder regardless who committed it
Bastiat90 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
Your comments are truisms..
Also, so long as the U.S Government gives uncritical and unremitting support to Israel (No matter what it does) and the U.S (And largely International) Media give Israel a free ride - the Israelis aren't going to be punished. Know what else sucks?
They probably never will be, there will probably never be a Palestinian State and as we speak the idea is being tossed around in the Knesset of ethnic cleansing against Bedouins inside Israel..
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
Do you have anything constructive to say on what the Palestinian leadership should do or are you commenting to utter vacuous elementary moral principles?
As for murder 'being the same' - the death ratio (Palestinians / Israelis) is about 500 to 1 and the tiny amount of Israeli deaths are almost exclusively in direct response to Israeli assaults. So it's not ''all the same'' Mr. Rational.. not when one side is over-whelmingly crushing the other and generating hostilities.
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
Well, I'd like to erase Israel as a Jewish state: it's a form of racism (we called it thus when Hitler tried to make Germany an Aryan country). But do I trust those nutcases in Hamas to honour a fair deal? No... their grievance is not with Israel but with the presence of Jews in the Middle East. More Jews were expelled after 1948 than Arabs in the Naqba. About 200,000 more. Millennia old countries in Baghdad and Syria just wiped from the map. Do I trust these people... no
Bastiat90 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
Well...Hamas has nothing to do with the acts you've just described - so your argument is a non-sequitur.
Unless ''These people'' is a coy reference to *all* Muslims and it's a corrolary that you distrust all Muslims; then your argument isn't worth anything.
There's a reason why more than half of Israel's population consists of Jews from other Arab Countries - precisely the reason you've just given. Out of 1,000,000 Jews who were kicked out or left, more than 600,000 got to Israel.
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
Anyways, it's Israel and the U.S that have unilaterally blocked any and all Diplomatic settlement for over 30 Years now - it's Israel and the U.S that Vote AGAINST THE WORLD around every 2 Years on the issue of Palestine - It's Hamas who committed to a Ceasefire which the Israelis broke - It's Hamas who say they would abide by U.N 242 and UN 647 - not Israel or the U.S - it's Hamas that say they respect the Two-State proposal accepted by the rest of the World - not Israel.
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
Remember, not a single Israeli had been killed (Or even injured) when they bombarded Lebanon for the 7th time in 2006 to ''Defend Israel which was being subject to seige Warfare by Katyusha rockets'' - all this talk about ''Oh well Hamas are x and y..'' isn't dealing with the fundamental issues.
First of all, Hamas are the elected Goverment (One of not so many in the Arab World) - you have to deal with them, the Israelis even tried to before..
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
Agreed, they are elected: but on that logic the government of Netanyahu was also elected and therefore deserves the same treatment.
Bastiat90 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
Netanyahu is treated scyophantically when he goes to AIPAC conferences, or any conference in the U.S for that matter - the media fawn on him and quote him in full.
When there's some news about Hamas to report, it doesn't even get reported - unless they've committed an attrocity and it can be used for a propanda line against them.
Netenyahu is allowed to renege on his agreements entirely, without Press comment - Hamas are held to 3 Conditions by the Press that he is NOT.
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
Of course Bibi is treated sycophantically at AIPAC; it is a Jewish committee after all.
Bastiat90 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
Namely 1) They must recognize Israel before the U.S deals with them..
(The U.S and Israel meanwhile have no intention of recognizing Palestine'
2) They must renounce violence.
(Which the U.S and Israel have no intention of doing, the U.S continues to provide deep Economic, Military, Diplomatic and Political support for Israeli brutality)
3) They must 'abide by previous agreements' - despite the fact it was THEM who terminated the last talks when they got to close to progress.
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
1) They did recognise Israel I believe: Edward Said is instrumental in the decision. I think it happened in the late 80's or early 90's.
2) I think this is a pre-requisite, but I accept that Israel has not done what it says it will. Violence when defending property is fine, but some use the Palestinians to carry on their agenda of killing Jews. This is what I criticise: some would establish a giant pogrom in Israel given the chance.
3) Weren't the Camp David accords a con anyway?
Bastiat90 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
3) And the fact that it's Israel and the U.S vis-a-vis the Security Council that block implimentation of U.N 242 and U.N 647 - as well as of the Geneva accords which criminalizes the action of putting your own population into conquered territories and respectively, the aquisition of territory through Warfare; Israel is a small Country that *could* be stopped by the Don/U.S in a second, but it won't - it probably never will be.
But yeah, Hamas are the problem! Fucking hell...
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
You have completely failed to see my message: such myopia is not healthy. I do not want an Israeli state... I'd prefer a secular state within whose borders Arabs and Jews can live. Israel's crimes are self-evident and more than enough attention has been paid to them, whereas the crimes of Hamas and the militant Islamists go uncovered because the media is scared of being branded racist as a consequence of negative portrayal of Arabs.
Bastiat90 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
When they thought Hamas wouldn't make any trouble, they tried to use Hamas as a ''Counter-weight'' against the PLO (Before they brutally murdered them with 20,000 deaths in 1982 w/ NATO/U.S support) who *were* making trouble for them..
Hell, Israel invaded another of their Neighboors JUST to knock out an independant Palestinian Political force and you're going to tell me Hamas is the problem?
Fuck off, seriously.
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
Of course it it's a problem, not the only problem but a problem nonetheless.
Bastiat90 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
..And the Colonies for Jews and Jews only, and the Roads for Jews and Jews only that lead to them and the division of the entire non-state of Palestine into cantons, literally dividing and conquering them - while building new Colonies as we speak and continually refusing to quit building in East Jerusalem and contining to block any and all measures that lead to a Palestinian State...
Like them or not, Hamas would abide by Resolution 242 and the Geneva Convention- Israeli will not.
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago
@Bastiat90
As for not wanting peace, who cancelled negotiations in 2000 when Palestine came closer than ever to being resolved.. the Israelis of course. Who assasinated their own Prime Minister for moving too close to resolving Palestine? The Israelis! Whose Parliament hasn't functioned in 2 Years because of continual Israeli assasination of Politicians? The Palestinians!
Son,you really have to go and read some Robert Fisk articles..maybe a few books by Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein.
BelfastAtheist 1 month ago