Is God's Salvation System Fair? Debate: Opening Statement to PeaceinChristAlone

[IntelligentProbe]

@dudemancalidude they were,they were God's chosen people, they were given the "oracles" of God first, so says Paul. Jesus even stated that his first coming as a baby and dieing on the cross, was to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Jews), and that everyone else was "dogs". Then in Acts Jesus spreads his wings to the Gentiles (heathen/everyone-else), and now we are to see how great it all is. Nonsense, I say.

[IntelligentProbe]

The central problem with debating Biblical matters at all, is that there are so many varying views, that once you win, you've only defeated one particular view. This is one of the reasons I left Christianity, because the Bible is so ambiguous that you can argue whatever you want.

[Tonithenightowl]

Jesus also said, anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, anyone who gives up all he has and follows Christ, anyone who loves God and others, and even those who see that nature is consistent with a Creator will be saved. Meaning anyone who seeks, finds. Also, and most Christians fail to remember this but in order to be forgiven you also have to forgive. Churches want to control their flock, their money and their conscience. It's just good business to do such.

[LinkMEP]

Sense to get into Heaven and receive salvation all we need to do is be genuinely sorry for own sins, seems fair to me.

[IntelligentProbe]

@LinkMEP This is not the Biblical route of salvation. Being "genuinely sorry" won't get you anywhere. The Bible calls for repentance, which means one isn't just sorry, but actually does not continue to "sin" anymore. Of course "sin" is highly disputed. Perhaps long hair on men is a sin, or short hair on women. Perhaps women speaking in the Church is sin, or perhaps men wearing hats is, and so on. Then there is the matter of Baptism, Communion etc... which many hold to be necessary for salvation.

[LinkMEP]

@IntelligentProbe Being sorry is repentance. And you can be sorry for not being baptized. You are saved by God’s grace alone, which you earn by being sorry for your sins.

[IntelligentProbe]

@LinkMEP being sorry is not repentance, and you can't "earn" what is claimed to be by "grace alone". If one doesn't turn from sin, then one has not repented. Changing the definition of repentance doesn't make what you are saying true. No where does the phrase "grace alone" appear in the Bible.

[LinkMEP]

@IntelligentProbe Allow me to be more specific. Jesus died for our sins, there for repentance is not necessarily. And even if it was, the salvation system would still be fair.

[IntelligentProbe]

@LinkMEP Here are 53 references to the call of repentance in the New Testament;

Mat. 3:2,8,11; 4:17; 11:20,21; 12:41; Mark 1:4,15; 6:12; Luke 3:3,8; 5:32; 10:13; 11:32; 13:3,5; 15:7,10; 16:30; 17:3,4; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 8:22; 11:18; 13:24; 17:30; 19:4; 20:21; 26:20; Rom. 2:4,5; 2Co. 7:9,10; 12:21; 2Ti. 2:25; Heb. 6:1,6; 12:17; 2Pe. 3:9; Rev. 2:5,16,21,22; 3:3,19; 9:20,21; 16:9,11;

The call to repentance is the theme of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

[IntelligentProbe]

@IntelligentProbe

Further, simply stating that the salvation system would be fair, and demonstrating why are two different things. In the first case you are only claiming it, in the second you are proving it. Thus, you haven't proved anything, yet. From what I've seen thus far, you don't even understand the Gospel message of repentance, a consistent message from Matthew to Revelation.

[LinkMEP]

@IntelligentProbe I didn't see the second part because you repleyed to yourself. I only state what i've been taught.

[LinkMEP]

@IntelligentProbe Okay, but regardless, Gods salvation system is still fair.

[vision4DaY]

i don't understand why you picked him .... this is the first vid i see from you. he looks like a pretty normal christian so i guess there is not much that is going to come from this debate. well i hope you DO have fun.

[ProportionalResponse]

@vision4DaY Why not? I like Tim. I don't agree with him on lots of things, but if he is willing to have a debate, and play fair and give me a debate, why not? 

[vision4DaY]

@ProportionalResponse

well, it is because his arguments are so normal. it's like if i pick a christian from the street or local church and talk to him. the christian would say the same things this guy says. they are full of contradictions and fallacies but for him it makes sense. and even if you were to prove to him how his arguments are not logical, he would see you like the deceived and confused one. because he knows god is real and just, because he has experienced him

[vision4DaY]

Respond to this video...

part 2.

and there is nothing you could say or do, you can't take his personal experience away from him.

and well he is right about that, you can't take anyone personal experience from them. i know i have judged him too much but i know this type of people, i have bet debated, and befriended them, but when it comes to debating them i found at lest for my experience is a waste of time. nothing productive is gotten out of it.

[vision4DaY]

Respond to this video... part 3

by the way, i like the guy. he seem sincere. i am just saying he is not debating material(lol). but you picked him, and that is your choice, i guess i will learn something new from the bible. by the way, good debating material would be someone like veritas48, he was thought provoking and brought some logical(at least in the surface) coherent arguments that were worth the time. anyways, have fun in your debate.

[sfg911]

No logical fallacies allowed??? How is that fair? You just took away every argument the guy could make.

[AmishRakeFight85]

I agree with reignofcrimson, you need to include the War Room sign in every debate video or video resonse.

[ProportionalResponse]

@AmishRakeFight85 LOL War Room has been with me for a while. It stays on my door. =)

[reignofcrimson]

War Room FTW XD!

[JohnF30Music]

religions are literally scams, no need to take them seriously, straight up condemn them

[robtbo]

Let's not forget the many thousands of uncontacted people and their ancestors who never even had an opportunity to know any version of the Abrahamic god.

[bdf2718]

The existence of tens of thousands of Christian denominations means one of: 1) There is no God. 2) There is a deistic God who set the universe in motion but takes no interest in us. 3) God exists but is unfathomably evil.

He's God. He could tell us which denomination is the right one, using the celestial telephone. Maybe it's the "wee wee frees" (google it). We have to guess? That's not fair, it's evil. I would rather there is no God than one as evil as that.

[rollsthepaul]

The inconsistencies of the bible, the apathy of christians and much info, coming to our awareness, makes christianity a very shakey belief system, indeed. Your articulation is refreshing, however, it is the exception and not the rule. I believe that many people are unsure and waiting for spirituality to overtake religion, which it must.

[Botzu]

I agree with the posters, very nice attitude and civility from both posters. Looking forward to more videos.

[justintempler]

PICA lost me with his statement "God is love".

I like how you pointed out the failure of logic in the quotation made by Paul.

[sonvolt48]

I want to commend PIC for agreeing to the debate (rather rare in the youtube theist community) and for the level tone (if somewhat convoluted content) of his opening statement. Let the games begin.

[WineisyourFriend]

This will be good. Not as good as my exhange with thereprieve, mind you, but still good. :o) I guess you didn't need me to moderate anything for you after all. Probably good. New baby in the house makes it damn near impossible to do anything extra-curricular.

[kelliko70]

Good job on both parts. I love a good debate.

[traog]

He (PICA) seems to be a bit unsure what the salvation system is.

[MakingTheMetalBand]

:) looking forward to seeing more of this.

[nelliediddle]

I'm interested int his , and yet I have the distinct feeling it'll be ... frustrating LOL

I love that you can remain calm I tend to get a little worked up over the mental gymnastics needed

[GluteusIlluminatus]

What? Logical fallacies in the bible? You lie! The bible is perfect because the bible says so. So there. Ha! :D

[CamW30]

@GluteusIlluminatus - I guess that you have never read the bible.

[GluteusIlluminatus]

@CamW30 Oh I have. That's why I know it's a crock. I didn't read it while "possessed by the holy spirit" though. I actually read what's in the damn book with my sense of reason fully intact.

[CamW30]

@GluteusIlluminatus - Oops! I think I missed the sarcasm (ie the smiley face) in your previous post. I thought that you were serious about there being no logical fallacies in the bible. I thought, "If you read it, how the f**k did you miss them." Colour my face red.

[GluteusIlluminatus]

@CamW30 It happens to the best of us.

[AlbinoBlackshepard]

this is the first debate I have watched on you tube where both parties seem to know what they are talking about and it's not a shouting match. keep it up :)

[ProportionalResponse]

@JohnHenryAlex Are you trying to lower expectations for Peace? It seems the onl;y sense you make, is that you are trying to make this debate less important, and show that if I win, I accomplish nothing.  You are wrong in this. if you don't think so, make a video. I'll reply.

[dtm52]

@JohnHenryAlex I think it is best to ask the theist first if they can define god, tell us what they believe and why they believe it. If they can't get past that, then any debate can go ahead, but clearly they do not have much of a foundation to stand on. They can't, as they want, make arguments that assume god and that the bible is his work.

[dtm52]

@JohnHenryAlex I think a law against rape was written by all in society. I would not want someone to murder me, so I would not want to murder someone else. Society has written that law. So a law against rape would have actual merit behind it. Unlike many parts of the bible.

[ProportionalResponse]

@JohnHenryAlex Holy Cow! If you are talking about a system, in the bible, which is about God's salvation system, and people use the bible to outline that system, of COURSE it matters who wrote, edited and contributed TO that source. You are ridiculously wrong in this.

[dtm52]

@JohnHenryAlex I know, but I like to know the source of something before I debate it. If the source in not trustworthy, I tend not to bother debating obviously corrupt and made up material. If one is debating two possible theories that both have some merit that is one thing. But that is not the case here. But if you think it a good exercise, ok.

[cboch11]

IMO this is so much better put together than PeaceInChrist's video. I love the way you go about attacking this question rather than just going on with what seems to be random chunks of information with minimal connection between them. Needless to say, well done.

[ProportionalResponse]

@cboch11 Thank you very much =) I'll try to keep up the hard work.

[musicgeniusno1]

Look forward to this Greg. I already see a host of problems in his video so far..still, i'm sure you will get right onto them ;)

[dtm52]

@JohnHenryAlex Then how do you know what was it that was supposed to have created the salvation system and the holy bible?

[TheIrishlonewolf]

greg i sent you a link to play both opening videos side by side :) 

[TemporalOnline]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAw... I'm so sorry for you, I mean he did EVERY SINGLE THING you said you wouldn't tolerate in a debate about homosexuality... It was really difficult to go through his video |:/

[TemporalOnline]

"Syatem".

[ProportionalResponse]

@TemporalOnline DAMN!! Thanks for the catch.. I'mma dork. 

[PeaceInChristAlone]

@ProportionalResponse Good video and points, but I will do my best to correct them.

[lovelara2]

@ProportionalResponse you're not a dork, you just need a better spell-checker ;)

[TemporalOnline]

Your system has a problem |:P

[dtm52]

Ask him to define God.

[PeaceInChristAlone]

@dtm52 God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

[ProportionalResponse]

@PeaceInChristAlone God is the big bang?  js =)

[gravekeepersven]

Im looking forward to this portportionalresponse. Oh and havent you heard that nephilmfree straw maned the debate he himself put out! Talk to Happycabbie about the full details about the whole biased fiasco!