I wander if Jezuzfreek would still kill his child on demand from god if his child was bound for hell. What would you do neoplum if god was real and made the same demand from you? Just curious.
Noelplum everything else you said aside, if we accept the premise that God is ALL GOOD, all knowing he has everyone's best interest at heart, then wouldn't killing one's child be the (only possible) RIGHT thing to do? Anything you do otherwise only comes in the way of that good and would be wrong on your part.
If we accept the premise that God is ALL GOOD, all knowing he has everyone's best interest at heart, then this wouldn't be a terrible deed. The only logical answer is Yes...
@noelplum99 Well, going back, I see you did say something like that, though you went into more specifics of Christianity, and other deeper issues. Perhaps, believing that there is an afterlife better than this life on Earth is a bit worrying but like you yourself said that in Christianity, God instructs Christian to respect this life just the same. So then that shouldn't be worrying. You've essentially come a full circle back to the question. At which point I would say that answering "yes" is..
@SikhiArt continued: ..."yes" is the rational thing to say, and that this is not a terrible deed. So what exactly should we be worried about here? What exactly is the point of your video if what Jezuzfreek said is the only rational answer.
@SikhiArt Because you say in one framework things make sense but when placed in another framework they sound ridiculous. Just like anything from an atheist framework sounds ridiculous in a theist framework. So the atheist might think that killing as per God's command would be wrong, but the theist thinks that it is right. There is no easy way to decide between these frameworks because there are several types of both atheist and theist frameworks, with vast differences between those camps.
I never suggested you could decide which framework accords with relity on this basis, what i said is that something which appears logical and reasonable under one framework (being prepared to kill your children on command in this case) seems hidrous if the tenets of that framework are removed.
Bear in mind, in the real world, people really do make and act on decisions on the basis of their framework, so this is no insignificant point.
@noelplum99 Ok, so on what basis do you think you have the right framework when you said that the conclusions in a different framework were "worrying"?
Mind you this different framework is not necessarily Christianity, if could be any framework where God is synonymous with Good/the Greater Good. And keep in mind that to assess a framework, you have to look at the whole thing. Such frameworks (like religion) are/were aimed at public well-being, so their proposed ideas are part of a larger system.
I have about 130 videos and probably a good 100 of them deal with why I think I have the right framework, in one way or another. I am really not sure i can condense what must amount to dozens of hours of arguments into 500 chars (Believe me, I wish i could).
I suppose if I had to go with one argument above all others it would be the arguments for the non-existence of an immaterial (spiritual) soul (i laid them out in a video called 'i know you haven't got soul)......
...because without a spiritual component so much else falls apart from many other frameworks (think of the impact on the abortion debate as a practical example of heaven/hell as a philosophical one).
I agree with you, though, that it certainly isn't as cut and dried as secular vs christian frmaeworks or atheistic vs christian frameworks, things are much more complicated than that.
I've long since come to the conclusion that belief in the christian God is dangerous insanity, especially in today's hi-tech world. That said, if I somehow became convinced that Himself was instructing me to kill anyone, my reply would be kill him yourself, you're all powerful, and I'm to lazy to go to all that trouble. Just my 2 cents.
Good stuff. Much like happycabbie and RR's responses, I concur that this isn't something that the YouTube community as a whole should put a lot of weight on. In light of JezuzFreek777's character, he doesn't seem like the type of individual who would go through with something that terrible, or at least without a sense of conscience.
@noelplum I hope there are contradictory Bible versus about murdering with God's permission, because in the case that Jezuzfreek777 brings this up again, well ... we can spit them in his face and tell him that God loves him enough to confuse him so. But something tells me there isn't.
Oh this is so lovely. There's something really compelling about your logic and your way of arguing.
However I don't think there's any use in trying to figure out exactly whom or what to blame. The Christian framework can be seen as part of the problem, but so are the individual's personal beliefs, and so is our human nature in general. There is rarely just one spot we can point the finger at.
I'm saying all this mostly to provide some constructive criticism, but really, I'm loving these videos.
Just look at what Son of Sam did when he the voice inside his head told him to kill people. Course, he thought that was the neighbour's dog talking to him, not God.
I've always thought that if one seriously believes the batshit crazy premises of heaven & hell, it's completely rational to kill your kids while they're young enough to be guaranteed a ticket into heaven. After all, we inflict the temporary pain of a vaccination needle upon our children for its long-term benefits . . . why not inflict a more severe injury in exchange for the beyond-incredibly rewards of eternal bliss?
Even if God *doesn't* want you to kill your kids, it would still be an incredible act of love and sacrifice to do so. Imagine sentencing yourself to hell so that all your murdered toddlers would be sure to get into heaven. Greater love hath no man!!
As you say Todd, that is the one big stumbling block, it does require one hell(literally) of a sacrifice!! Oh, I suppose that it is lunacy based on bullshit is another stumbling block!
In Anthony, unfortunately, we have someone who is evidently not that good at critical thinking. And this is the real danger of religious thinking, it is the danger of all irrational thinking. Once you start believing in the unbelievable , the unfounded and the unprovable, all bets are off - ANYTHING is possible. In a nutshell, you pry yourself free from reality and if you succeed completely you can go into freefall.
@thatgaybloke What makes it more dangerous is that in the "moderates" we fool ourselves into thinking they are more rational. They are not - they are still taking on board a mind set, from authority, without question. The only difference is that the message they have taken on board aligns slightly better with our morality than, say Anthony's. Lift the covers and you see the same dangerous mechanism at work.
Fascinating video. I think you are on to something here. Once you accept these religious premises, then the conclusions seem inescapable. Whether we are talking about Abraham and Isaac, or the Lafferty brothers, or the parents of Daniel Hauser, the conclusions these people reach seem to be inescapable once you accept these premises.
I've often thought that the "moral" of the OT stories, the interpretations, were added on at a much later date. To rationalize, justify, and put a "happy" face, on what is otherwise horrific tales of people behaving badly. David (what a bastard he was), Lot (don't need to go there), the list is almost endless. We have plenty of modern examples of revisionist history as well, to draw upon, for comparison. JF seems to be fixed upon the rationalized, "happy face" side of things.
If the view of christianity is that mortal death isn't really that bad; then, why do they place so much emphasis on the crucifixion of christ? Whenever I hear a christian say, "Jesus died for your sins", should I take that as, "Jesus took a pleasant trip home for your sins."???
I was thinking, simply that believing that god is telling you to kill someone (at one point in your life) and believing that god exists (all the time) are exactly the same thing.
I've had conversations along these lines. It usually ends with the theist saying something like "But God would never tell me to do that". Seems like a cop-out, since God already (reportedly) did.
What you said in the latter half of your video sounds like the classic counter to Pascal's Wager--including other religions/philosophies positing an afterlife, plus the null result (atheism).
We should also treat the symptoms somebody saying "I would do something anti-social if god asked me to do it" needs to be criticised. Even in a world where God exists, suspending my lack of belief for a moment, if God (and I knew it was him/her/it) asked me to do something against my own moral code this would cause a paradox. God made me and any decision I take has to be the right one. Even if I went against God he/she/it knew I would so this has to be his plan.
I tried to watch JezusFreek777's videos, even subscribed for a while, but the man is just... I'm religious, but he's a complete and utter fucking tool. A poor representation for anything resembling a coherent human being.
I just think it's horrible that he would choose his religion over his children, and so do hundreds of millions of religious nutjobs all over the world.
You're quite right to play God's advocate to understand JF's perspective. It makes total sense & is the same as Neph's claim that he believes whatever is in the Bible (even if it had said pink space monkeys make pizzas on Mars). Now we can go one step further & understand how suicide bombers justify their actions. According to their staunch intepretation of the Quran, they truly believe that by killing infidels,they'll be rewarded with eternal bliss for carrying out god's orders. Dangerous eh?
The mental gymnastics are difficult indeed and that is where 'faith' comes in I think. You have to try and understand as much as you can (in other words shoehorn reality to fit the model) and then all the bits that still don't make any sense you just ignore and have faith that God will work it all out. That is why the afterlife is such an important concept here because by being a total unknown it can act like a kind of 'magic panacea'.
@noelplum99 A Church follower is always told not to question the rational of god's choices. We are not smart enough to understand god's wisdom.
You ask someone to imagine if they could fly, would they whined, saying they couldn't...
Its not the same thing. The moment I imagined I could fly, I "knew" it was make believe and that gave me the power to imagine it. When I changed it to the god scenario, it in itself became "make believe" which makes the belief in a god make believe.
So I should either agree or stop watching? Yeah sorry, no. If you're going to put up the claim that IF god is truly benevolent, then its okay to kill your kid on his command then your claim is self refuting.
Nope, I didn't say agree or stop watching. The video is meaningless if you are not prepared to put yourself in the shoes of someone who genuinely **does** believe these things - i couldn't give a flying crap if they are logically consistent or not. If I asked you to imagine you could fly would you whine back 'I can't i can't, i haven't got wings, my bone densityis too great!' or would you just shut your mind off to the awkward bits...
The whole point of that part of the video is to say that for anyone who believes these fundamental things then, in fact, these conclusions don't seem so illogical. Your retort that the fundamentals are illogical is just irrelevant.
I have put myself in his shoes, I've been a fundamentalist Christian and when I started reading the bible on my own, and reading some of the horrible things god has done in the bible, I began to question god and the rest was history. So yes, if someone thinks their god is truly benevolent, but thinks that killing their child would be a truly benevolent they're still in the wrong.
I am not saying he isn't wrong i am saying his conclusion is consistent with his pre-held beliefs and your value judgement that instantly sending a child to a place of total perfection is evil (I am looking at it from his perspective) is, in my judgement, an erroneous assessment of his position.
he is wrong, indeed, but wrong because the fundamental principles themselves are wrong - his belief in an omnibenevolent agent is wrong in the first place.
so you're just stating what we already knew about his position? Good job, way to really clear up the air there. Nobody is sitting around saying "why would he say that" they're saying that its a screwed up position and they're shocked and a little bit frightened that he would actually say that. That he would actually consider killing his own child.
"If you're going to put up the claim that IF god is truly benevolent, then its okay to kill your kid on his command then your claim is self refuting. "
I'm not putting up any fucking claims. What i am saying is that for someone who already believes that God is omnibenevolent; already believes that God is omniscient; already believes that for anything that bad that happens here reparations will come in the next life THEN the conclusion JF makes logically follows?
I think you just don't understand why people had a problem with his comment. Its not because he would follow god's commands its because the command is evil and he would even consider following it. Oh and nice f-bomb, if you're not willing to communicate like an adult you'll be treated like a child. Oh and "everybody" at this point is 1/6 of the viewers.
Then I suggest you go through the comments and see if 5/6 of the people who left a comment agree with your assessment, i think i can find only two others out of over 100.
PS: Newsflash, adults swear, so get with the fucking programme (feel free to swear yourself btw, the only thing i can't abide on my vids is people who post all caps)!
You are asserting that if you truly believed God was (1)omnibenevolent, (2)omniscient and made (3)reparations for any suffering in an eternal perfect afterlife on what rational grounds would you NOT do as he asks and kill your child (we are assuming 100% certainty that God exists and is making the request)? Remember, your refusal cannot negate either 1,2 or 3 or you don't truly believe them. So give me your argument, please :)
An understandable choice - in the real world especially- but then your problem is with that fundamental claim, that God is Omnibenevolent, not with the conclusion reached when that claim is taken as given.
again you're beating a dead horse, everybody understands why JF made the statement he made. Nobody is asking "why would he say that" they're saying "here's another example why religion is messed up". JF's point of view is very similar to the guys who commit the 9/11 terrorist activities. They believed that their god was perfect and that they were doing good by doing what they perceived to be god's commands. Understanding his POV in no way diminishes the evil of it.
"Understanding his POV in no way diminishes the evil of it." Of course it doesn't, but it makes sure we don't get sidetracked by the symptoms alone to the exclusion of the root causes.
i have made two videos on this now and i would really like you to tell me where you think i have excused JF and said his opinions are right?
When did I say you were excusing him? Understanding him doesn't serve any purpose and like I've said many times your videos only communicate what we already knew.
So the comments represent everyone's opinion. I don't leave a comment at every video I watch, do you? You have over a thousand views and less than 10% of that in comments.
Go ahead and swear if you don't mind sounding like an uneducated halfwit who has a problem expressing himself intelligently.
"Go ahead and swear if you don't mind sounding like an uneducated halfwit who has a problem expressing himself intelligently."
I don't know whay but this actually had me laughing, not even really sure why.
Ok, what about other videos? I trade you godlesshayes, abusiveantitheist and conferencereport off the top of my head who have made the same point in video responses. I cannot recall a single video disputing the position other than two by theists on additional theological grounds.
I actually already went off on abusiveatheist. Maybe you should look up bionicdance's or do a basic search for JF right now, I've seen easily a half dozen or so comments against him.
I watched BD's video but she wasn't arguing the opposite, her point was entirely different. I certainly didn't see within her video where she argued the irrationality of JF's conclusion GIVEN his pre-existing framework of beliefs. I was actually a bit disappointed in keight tbh, as JF here is being criticised (rightly imo) for answering a hypothetical and yet when i asked her a hypothetical in her comments she refused to answer, saying I was trying to find a 'loophole' in her argument
You know, the thing is: i don't believe Cristians when they say that they believe in heaven and the afterlife and all that jazz. Because when someone they love dies, they cry just as loud as we do. And they weep not because they're left behind and the dead one is already in heaven, but because they know that this is forever. And they try to fight off death just as hard as we do, sometimes even harder, hiding again behind their religion.
i quite agree with that, anyone they expect to go to heaven they should be less upset about (and anyone they would expect to go to hell they should be permanently inconsolable about)
I have a friend who recently succumbed to mental illness. Nothing too severe, he is ok now, but for a while he suffered from paranoid delusions. Not 'kill your kids' stuff, he just thought everyone was on his case with no reason.
I saw him struggling to come to terms with what he felt & what was rational to believe. He mostly succeeded. I can't help but wonder what would happen if someone like jezuzfreek became mentally ill? His mindset might reinforce rather than conflict with his delusions.
@noelplum99 It gives me the moral high ground of being honest. I also consider such hypothetical situations that are never going to happen (honestly, can you imagine such a realitic scenario?) totally futile in moral discussions. Because people ARE claiming a moral high ground by paying lip service to something they never have to really stand up for. It's like all those people in Germany saying that they would have stood against Hitler when their parents and grandparents didn't.
"It gives me the moral high ground of being honest."
Not over jezuzfreek it doesn't, he was being honest also.
Bear in mind when you talk about situations that would never happen, whilst I have some sympathy with what you say (though I disagree they are futile) the same equally applies to the situation that was set out before jezuzfreek.
I suppose i made the retort to groovyengineer because I dislike unqualified statements unless they are really meant without qualification
@noelplum99 "Bear in mind when you talk about situations that would never happen, whilst I have some sympathy with what you say (though I disagree they are futile) the same equally applies to the situation that was set out before jezuzfreek."
I recommend watching Pooka's video "killing in the name of". People killing their kids because "god told them to" is real. "your kid or 1 million other kids" isn't. It's not a moral dilemma that has any value because people claim shit for appearing moral
I have seen his video. His video deals with, and this is only my opinion though i don't think you would argue with it, people who erroneously believe that God has spoken to them, not people who genuinely have been instructed by God (primarily i say this on the basis that there is no god).
If you think I am anywhere suggesting this doesn't happen then check out my other video on this subject where i discuss this in terms of risk analysis. I mean i totally accept that kind of...
...thing happens, it would be almost beyond the realm of possibility for it not to given a billion Christians in the world, the big practical question is whether it happens often enough to justify removing the children from the homes of millions of fundies.
@noelplum99 Well, the problem is, people who only believe that god has spoken to them and those to whom god has really spoken to are indistinguishable from one another.
But I don't know how people always jump from "alert child protection service" to "remove from home". That's not what they're about, they're usually about checking whether there is a real problem and whether they can help parents struggeling with parenting to improve. So, if somebody claims they would kill their kid if...
@noelplum99 ...god told them to, and we know those things happen, and we know that person seems a bit, hmm, instable, wouldn't it be a good idea to check whether that person really is a danger to the kids or not.
You can hear me saying things like "I'll kill the brat" at least once a week, but nobody is alerted because I don't give the impression of sincerely meaning it.
What I think everyones problem about this is, why would God ask this of someone? What grounds would God need you to kill your kid and you accept? Jezuzfreek doesn't seem to go into detail about it, and he just says "Yeah, because God said so".
I agree with you though, it's definitely a symptom of something much bigger.
Right on target; we all speak from a frame of reference and if one dont have the same reference, it wont make sense, but that doesnt make it....stupid/wrong....etc.
Noel, many atheists were never religious and cannot fathom the thought processes of Anthony at all. As an ex-Christian I can totally understand where Anthony is coming from and I fully agree with your statement that these are all symptoms. At some level, criticizing the individual quirky remarks that Christians make is time wasted since (a) it won't change the views of that Christian and (b) there's plenty more people who think the same way. The core reasons must be addressed. Great video!
Your clock is awesome. Last video it did reveal a little bit on your "streams of consciousness" appearance. Regardless, I love the way you analyze situations, never just accepting something on face value. I think you are probably right here, that the bigger picture of all Christians would do the exact same thing that JF777 would do. Like you clearly pointed out, what are a few miserable mortal years compared to infinity in bliss? Noelplum, great in depth analysis again. Kudos!
To be fair, the Bible doesn't entirely advocate unquestioning obedience to God. Moses and Abraham argued with God and won. I'd think talking back to God is the correct Christian response.
But then again, the theory that God is all benevolent can't make sense because even if he can give someone an eternal and wonderful life, his daring alone to ask a parent to kill their child can not be a benevolent act, taking under consideration what kind of infinitely horrid experience that would be for that parent and the child. In the reality of what normal (default) human mind consists of, If this God existed I would consider him a sick, extremely, malevolent psycho/should be neutralized.
I nevr seen the original video by Jezuzfreak, and i know i'm probably repeating a well debunked thought...The question was put to him that if God asked him to kill his child (like In a certain section of the bible), surely Jezuzfreak was putting himself in the place of Abraham so many thousands of years ago...with the ACTUAL god (sorry for the caps) doing the asking...Has anyone asked him if he heard the voice of God today would he do the same? I'm wondering if he maybe fell for a trap here.
I love anthropology. Objectivity is necessary for anyone who is interested in anthropology. And I must say, your video was dead on track. JesusFreak is thinking exactly as he would be expected to--considering the mindset he holds as a result of his Christian beliefs. I don't think "God" is going to tell him to kill his child. However, the child better not turn out to be drunken, stubborn, and rebellious, because the Bible, which JesusFreak assumes is "God's" word, says to kill such rotten apples
Yeah, I agree with you. (besides it being a problem part of course) That was exactly what I was thinking, but you said it much more clearly than I would have.
There is a YT video featuring a sermon by Doug Coe of C Street fame in which he admires how Mao's Red Guard tested the obedience of their recruits by having them decapitate their parents and show no emotion while doing it. This is no different than what was expected of Abraham.
I didn't actually realise the 'intelligent clock' had been invented yet but yes, you are correct, my clock lacks even the most rudimentary intelligence.
3 things. 1) sorry for the troll comment. 2) Which Football Team do you support 3) I think you missed a trick here. Jezuzfreek answered a question put to him in the same way as any other fundamentalist Christian would. Superfly is a clever guy so surely he realise's this. He seems to be more concerned that Jezuzfreek said it than that he believed it because surely he realises that for JF777 and thousands of others they HAVE to believe it. Therefore, to call him evil etc was not rational.
2) None in particular, though I would like to see Arsenal win this year (good win by them tonight in the champions league). Always had a bit of a soft spot for Newcastle though.
3) I don't know if you saw my other video that I made a day earlier on this subject? I touch on this very issue that for every JF there are a million who think the same but keep their mouths shut.
I posit that there are no 'true" christians in existence. If they truly believed that god was omnibenevolent, then why would any christian wear a seatbelt, or stop for red lights for that matter?
What troubles me about Jezuzfreek777 is his selection of the murder of his child as a sign of his devotion to god, when he could have selected other, less violent displays from the bible to show his devotion.
His other channel Jezuzfreek7777, shows him cleaning his handguns.
A great deal of the Christian perception has to do with just how abstract the issue is. It's more concrete to anyone that has had a child. Remove that one level, the child to be killed is a stranger, and it becomes easier. Easier still if the child was in a distant country. The Second Coming? Revelations is very abstract and vague. It becomes so vague it's easier to trust in faith and accept human suffering on a grand scale as the realization of prophesy, even if it means permanent damage.
Great video. What JF777 said isn't so much the problem in and of itself. The problem is the mindset which lead up to his answer. This same principle can be applied to just about all warped fundamentalist opinions if one wants to understand how someone can think such things.
I agree completely. I don't find jezuzfreak's position controversial at all.. the premise of the question was that you know God is speaking too you.. then surely even the most hardcore atheist would do the same? All I get from all this is that jezuzfreak thought it through more than most people and gave a truthful and completely sensible answer.
You're right the difference is that JF is answering the question with the 'knowledge' that God is speaking to him; whereas an atheists is answering the same question with the knowledge that the 'voice' isn't God but a form of insanity. We have to imagine that JF would need to be 100% certain that his God is talking to him.
I wonder where YouTube debate is going if people call the authorities over answers to hypothetical questions! Some atheists are as crazy as the religious!
Not bad at all, that was only a little more than 20 minutes of talking. My rants inevitably take longer to get out... OK they're usually on radio and 30 minutes long but still, they take days to put together.
After I made the video it occured to me that it would have been quite amusing if each edit i had moved the clock forward an hour or so - bit of a wasted opportunity that.
I think the criticism against JF is that his beliefs are dangerous because they allow him to possibly see infanticide in that way like you say, everyone knows that.
Even after suspending my disbelief, and accepting something like a benevolent god and heavenly afterlife, I'm STILL left with a major problem--that is whether I'm able to tell messages of that god from voices in my head. I have no way of doing so.
Religion allows schizophrenics to pretty easily blend into society.
Great video as always. I think the idea that rational thought depends on what you believe to be true, is a problem but is not just a problem with religion. There are scientific truths that lead to truly horrible conclusions if taken down a rational path. These videos bring about response because we hold some sanctity of life, whether because of religion or atheism or naturalism. Why is life held sacred. I can imagine dozens of rational conclusions that are quite problematic with this one belief.
Good video. Really clearly stated and well articulated (I'm taking notes). The only observation I would make is that is that a symptom of irrational belief is talking about doing reprehensible things because god tells you to, not actually doing anything.
The question then becomes do we call the CPS on everyone who has the same amount of faith as Anthony or at least enough for them to do what God asked? I wouldn't want to work for the CPS then!
I always wondered if that is why the catholic church made suicide an unforgivable sin. Otherwise there is no reason not to want to die and leave this plane of existence while you are in good graces so that you can go to heaven and not waste any more time here on earth.
When I first happened upon this drama I did the same thought experiment you proposed here. I assumed god to exist and be omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent just as JF777 might.
Now if god told me that I had to kill my child, that the child will be welcomed into heaven and that this is desirable, then I must consider how this would affect me. If I was given such a task it would cause me great distress and would therefore not be a purely good act which leads me to 2 conclusions. cont...
1. God is not all omnipotent or not omnibenevolent (as in the problem of evil) because he requires that I commit the act which will cause much more distress than if the child were to ascend to heaven.
I think even in this parallel universe in which the biblical god exists. If I thought this god was telling me to kill a child, that I would at first question my own sanity for a second before jumping for the knife drawer. The method of the delivery of the message should play a role.
Religion pretends to be innocent and noble: providing a moral framework and guiding people to follow God's alleged gentle proding to serve good.
The truth is that religion is nothing more than a big business that manipulates weak humans to make them believe that their moral duty is to support the intitutions that purport to represent God's will for man, preferably with lots of $.
The grotesque aspect is that they teach that God's will (as they see it) trumps all else, even your child's life.
So, you're saying that belief in religion is the core problem and that following the individual tenets of the religion are the symptoms. If there were no religions, there would be no people murdering others as a result of believing that god told them to do it.
I don't know what the original question was, but if it was definitely God asking (ignoring the contradictions obviously) then killing the child would be a great way to go. Depends how much doubt was in the question really.
What you say here is demonstrated on a daily basis by Muslim suicide bombers. They become martyrs and go to Paradise, and any Muslim they happen to kill in the process will also be martyred. The Abrahamic faiths are saying is that life gets so much better after you're dead. This is a death cult. In the messianic traditions this extends to include the destruction of the planet. They revel at any news of war and natural, humanitarian or environmental disaster. Destruction is rewarded in heaven.
I think what people are missing in the story of Abraham and Isaac is that it was a refutation of human sacrifice. Been a long time since I've studied the story or the text itself. But wasn't that one of the major covenants that ol' Jawhew made with the people of Israel(and later Christians) is that He would never again ask for such a sacrifice? If memory serves, then that should have been JF's answer in the first place and it also makes the question moot when asked to a modern day Xtian.
I do agree with you in every single point, but you should be more specific to what benevolent means. Actually not what it means but what it implies, i know that it means that everything that god does to us is good, but the question I have is , is something good because god does it or god does it because it is good ?
Great points and I couldn't agree more. Attacking the symptoms isn't necessarily the best course of action, but I think, attacking the root-cause will win no battles with people's beliefs. I do think pointing out these symptoms, showing one's disgust of them, ridiculing them if need be is a one of a few ways in guiding some people to rethink their "root-causes".
I would hope at best, even if these root-causes aren't dealt with by the believer that the symptoms are made as benign as possible.
@VitaVeritasVictoria-we can almost positively say that god is not going to fly down tomorrow and ask for these sacrifices.
I agree. The problem is many Christians believe that their own internal monologue is God speaking to them through the holy spirit. If that internal monologue says you should kill gays, prostitutes, abortion doctors, or in extreme cases your own children how do you distinguish between it being what God wants, and what you want, particularly in the case of sociopaths.
There is also the issue of how to deal with JF in terms of a response other than calling CPS or acting as if he is an extremely rare fuckwit & thus not a "true Christian." One way is to explore the story itself, noting that Abe's God had forbid child sacrifice for the Canaanites, & that this is NOT a normative story for man to go about doing horrid things based on the InnerVoice as God never intended any such kid killing. Dealing w/i JF's own context of belief cud give a better basis to judge.
Yes, this gets more at the heart of the issue where it is not so much that JF is an isolated & twisted fellow, but instead he is expressing a mainstream position which is "reasonable" given the God Delusion. I mentioned this point in a few comments elsewhere & nobody responded so good to see you cover this as a problem with belief in God more than a problem with the person of JF777.
yes, totally my thoughts too. all xians are hypocrites. otherwise every parent would, for the sake of their children, risk to go to hell themselfs in killing their babies directly after birth (maybe a little baptism first, depending on the version of xianiy). that way the children have no chance to commit any sin, hence go to heaven for sure.
of course i hope no one would actually follow this line of thoughts, but im sure it already happened before.
Pretty much. I've been debating with some Christians on a forum lately. When I put myself back into their shoes, the whole thing does make sense, god is magical, supernatural, so he can do anything he wants, we can NEVER understand his reasoning because we are so ignorant in comparison. Heaven is of course real, and all you have to do to go there is follow the bible or the quran and beleive in god/jesus as divine beings, which can do whatever they want regardless what we think about it.
I think it the consciousness of fundamentalism, demands the necessity not to question the tenets of your faith. You are told what you must do to avoid eternal damnation. You are told that 'god' knows more than you do and in spite of appearances, he is both omniscient AND omnibenevolent and yet he's COMMANDING you to do something your conscience rejects.
That is the systemic problem here, and it's a problem with a very long and bloody history...
I wander if Jezuzfreek would still kill his child on demand from god if his child was bound for hell. What would you do neoplum if god was real and made the same demand from you? Just curious.
mix56mix 11 months ago
@mix56mix
what did jezuzfreek do?
JoshMufc101 11 months ago
does that bean-stalk have balls or am I too high?
vraciudude 1 year ago
u fail kunt. all hail satan
lawazza 1 year ago
Noelplum everything else you said aside, if we accept the premise that God is ALL GOOD, all knowing he has everyone's best interest at heart, then wouldn't killing one's child be the (only possible) RIGHT thing to do? Anything you do otherwise only comes in the way of that good and would be wrong on your part.
If we accept the premise that God is ALL GOOD, all knowing he has everyone's best interest at heart, then this wouldn't be a terrible deed. The only logical answer is Yes...
SikhiArt 1 year ago
@SikhiArt ...of course, assuming the premises within the question that you are hearing God and that you are 100% sure it's God.
SikhiArt 1 year ago
@SikhiArt Finally, someone with brains :D Thank you.
philateliceun 1 year ago
@SikhiArt
Wasnt that exactly the point i was making? I'm confused.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99 Well, going back, I see you did say something like that, though you went into more specifics of Christianity, and other deeper issues. Perhaps, believing that there is an afterlife better than this life on Earth is a bit worrying but like you yourself said that in Christianity, God instructs Christian to respect this life just the same. So then that shouldn't be worrying. You've essentially come a full circle back to the question. At which point I would say that answering "yes" is..
SikhiArt 1 year ago
@SikhiArt continued: ..."yes" is the rational thing to say, and that this is not a terrible deed. So what exactly should we be worried about here? What exactly is the point of your video if what Jezuzfreek said is the only rational answer.
SikhiArt 1 year ago
@SikhiArt Because you say in one framework things make sense but when placed in another framework they sound ridiculous. Just like anything from an atheist framework sounds ridiculous in a theist framework. So the atheist might think that killing as per God's command would be wrong, but the theist thinks that it is right. There is no easy way to decide between these frameworks because there are several types of both atheist and theist frameworks, with vast differences between those camps.
SikhiArt 11 months ago
@SikhiArt
I never suggested you could decide which framework accords with relity on this basis, what i said is that something which appears logical and reasonable under one framework (being prepared to kill your children on command in this case) seems hidrous if the tenets of that framework are removed.
Bear in mind, in the real world, people really do make and act on decisions on the basis of their framework, so this is no insignificant point.
noelplum99 11 months ago
@noelplum99 Ok, so on what basis do you think you have the right framework when you said that the conclusions in a different framework were "worrying"?
Mind you this different framework is not necessarily Christianity, if could be any framework where God is synonymous with Good/the Greater Good. And keep in mind that to assess a framework, you have to look at the whole thing. Such frameworks (like religion) are/were aimed at public well-being, so their proposed ideas are part of a larger system.
SikhiArt 11 months ago
@SikhiArt
I have about 130 videos and probably a good 100 of them deal with why I think I have the right framework, in one way or another. I am really not sure i can condense what must amount to dozens of hours of arguments into 500 chars (Believe me, I wish i could).
I suppose if I had to go with one argument above all others it would be the arguments for the non-existence of an immaterial (spiritual) soul (i laid them out in a video called 'i know you haven't got soul)......
noelplum99 11 months ago
@noelplum99
...because without a spiritual component so much else falls apart from many other frameworks (think of the impact on the abortion debate as a practical example of heaven/hell as a philosophical one).
I agree with you, though, that it certainly isn't as cut and dried as secular vs christian frmaeworks or atheistic vs christian frameworks, things are much more complicated than that.
noelplum99 11 months ago
@noelplum99 Ok will check them out as time allows.
SikhiArt 11 months ago
I've long since come to the conclusion that belief in the christian God is dangerous insanity, especially in today's hi-tech world. That said, if I somehow became convinced that Himself was instructing me to kill anyone, my reply would be kill him yourself, you're all powerful, and I'm to lazy to go to all that trouble. Just my 2 cents.
JAC
TheJacov 1 year ago
And yet these people claim to not do any drugs.
Jonstern1983 1 year ago
Good stuff. Much like happycabbie and RR's responses, I concur that this isn't something that the YouTube community as a whole should put a lot of weight on. In light of JezuzFreek777's character, he doesn't seem like the type of individual who would go through with something that terrible, or at least without a sense of conscience.
TheShoguneagle 1 year ago
Nice Vid.
holio84 1 year ago
@noelplum I hope there are contradictory Bible versus about murdering with God's permission, because in the case that Jezuzfreek777 brings this up again, well ... we can spit them in his face and tell him that God loves him enough to confuse him so. But something tells me there isn't.
outlawcarnie 1 year ago
Oh this is so lovely. There's something really compelling about your logic and your way of arguing.
However I don't think there's any use in trying to figure out exactly whom or what to blame. The Christian framework can be seen as part of the problem, but so are the individual's personal beliefs, and so is our human nature in general. There is rarely just one spot we can point the finger at.
I'm saying all this mostly to provide some constructive criticism, but really, I'm loving these videos.
themissingn 1 year ago
Just look at what Son of Sam did when he the voice inside his head told him to kill people. Course, he thought that was the neighbour's dog talking to him, not God.
pirbird14 1 year ago
Brilliantly said... and very much logical.
PyroHaven07 1 year ago
I was going to write a response for this video but RationalRoundtable has basically read my mind, so watch him instead :P
Petrichor91 1 year ago
@Petrichor91
I have watched him and left comments. michael is one of my favourite youtubers.
noelplum99 1 year ago
1 of 2:
I've always thought that if one seriously believes the batshit crazy premises of heaven & hell, it's completely rational to kill your kids while they're young enough to be guaranteed a ticket into heaven. After all, we inflict the temporary pain of a vaccination needle upon our children for its long-term benefits . . . why not inflict a more severe injury in exchange for the beyond-incredibly rewards of eternal bliss?
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
2 of 2:
Even if God *doesn't* want you to kill your kids, it would still be an incredible act of love and sacrifice to do so. Imagine sentencing yourself to hell so that all your murdered toddlers would be sure to get into heaven. Greater love hath no man!!
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
@ToddAllenGates
As you say Todd, that is the one big stumbling block, it does require one hell(literally) of a sacrifice!! Oh, I suppose that it is lunacy based on bullshit is another stumbling block!
noelplum99 1 year ago
In Anthony, unfortunately, we have someone who is evidently not that good at critical thinking. And this is the real danger of religious thinking, it is the danger of all irrational thinking. Once you start believing in the unbelievable , the unfounded and the unprovable, all bets are off - ANYTHING is possible. In a nutshell, you pry yourself free from reality and if you succeed completely you can go into freefall.
thatgaybloke 1 year ago
@thatgaybloke What makes it more dangerous is that in the "moderates" we fool ourselves into thinking they are more rational. They are not - they are still taking on board a mind set, from authority, without question. The only difference is that the message they have taken on board aligns slightly better with our morality than, say Anthony's. Lift the covers and you see the same dangerous mechanism at work.
thatgaybloke 1 year ago
Fascinating video. I think you are on to something here. Once you accept these religious premises, then the conclusions seem inescapable. Whether we are talking about Abraham and Isaac, or the Lafferty brothers, or the parents of Daniel Hauser, the conclusions these people reach seem to be inescapable once you accept these premises.
JohnK75136 1 year ago
Brilliant analysis.
Textra1 1 year ago
I've often thought that the "moral" of the OT stories, the interpretations, were added on at a much later date. To rationalize, justify, and put a "happy" face, on what is otherwise horrific tales of people behaving badly. David (what a bastard he was), Lot (don't need to go there), the list is almost endless. We have plenty of modern examples of revisionist history as well, to draw upon, for comparison. JF seems to be fixed upon the rationalized, "happy face" side of things.
ravenslaves 1 year ago
If the view of christianity is that mortal death isn't really that bad; then, why do they place so much emphasis on the crucifixion of christ? Whenever I hear a christian say, "Jesus died for your sins", should I take that as, "Jesus took a pleasant trip home for your sins."???
Afod3 1 year ago
Richard Dawkins' narrow mindedness is never correct.
It was a moment of dis-clarity for you.
LinkMEP 1 year ago
God is Omni-benevolent = God wouldn't ask anybody to kill their own children then not stop it.
LinkMEP 1 year ago
I was thinking, simply that believing that god is telling you to kill someone (at one point in your life) and believing that god exists (all the time) are exactly the same thing.
Both beg the same question : How do you know?
heloizyjhenifer 1 year ago
I've had conversations along these lines. It usually ends with the theist saying something like "But God would never tell me to do that". Seems like a cop-out, since God already (reportedly) did.
HarshColby 1 year ago
What you said in the latter half of your video sounds like the classic counter to Pascal's Wager--including other religions/philosophies positing an afterlife, plus the null result (atheism).
SpyHotz404 1 year ago
We should also treat the symptoms somebody saying "I would do something anti-social if god asked me to do it" needs to be criticised. Even in a world where God exists, suspending my lack of belief for a moment, if God (and I knew it was him/her/it) asked me to do something against my own moral code this would cause a paradox. God made me and any decision I take has to be the right one. Even if I went against God he/she/it knew I would so this has to be his plan.
RegretfullyYes 1 year ago
Other than you were a bit quick to cut the video at the end, I can't really find anything I would oppose here.
Cheers
ekhaat 1 year ago
@ekhaat
Hehe, i can send you the extra 0.5 seconds in an email if you like ;)
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99 nahh, don't bother :-)
ekhaat 1 year ago
I tried to watch JezusFreek777's videos, even subscribed for a while, but the man is just... I'm religious, but he's a complete and utter fucking tool. A poor representation for anything resembling a coherent human being.
Skaramine 1 year ago
I just think it's horrible that he would choose his religion over his children, and so do hundreds of millions of religious nutjobs all over the world.
PluralOfEverything 1 year ago
You're quite right to play God's advocate to understand JF's perspective. It makes total sense & is the same as Neph's claim that he believes whatever is in the Bible (even if it had said pink space monkeys make pizzas on Mars). Now we can go one step further & understand how suicide bombers justify their actions. According to their staunch intepretation of the Quran, they truly believe that by killing infidels,they'll be rewarded with eternal bliss for carrying out god's orders. Dangerous eh?
pilgrimpater 1 year ago
I'm sorry. I tried to envision your "utopian" scenario of a benevolent god. I lasted 5 minutes, 9 seconds. Too many questions started to come up.
I'm sure you had a point... sorry.
Diasanti 1 year ago
@Diasanti
The mental gymnastics are difficult indeed and that is where 'faith' comes in I think. You have to try and understand as much as you can (in other words shoehorn reality to fit the model) and then all the bits that still don't make any sense you just ignore and have faith that God will work it all out. That is why the afterlife is such an important concept here because by being a total unknown it can act like a kind of 'magic panacea'.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99 A Church follower is always told not to question the rational of god's choices. We are not smart enough to understand god's wisdom.
You ask someone to imagine if they could fly, would they whined, saying they couldn't...
Its not the same thing. The moment I imagined I could fly, I "knew" it was make believe and that gave me the power to imagine it. When I changed it to the god scenario, it in itself became "make believe" which makes the belief in a god make believe.
Confusing?
Diasanti 1 year ago
How the hell do you read that clock lol?
UncomfortableSilence 1 year ago
@UncomfortableSilence
You stare at the hands for 5 minutes then check your watch :)
noelplum99 1 year ago
I think, the alternate view you have fails because a truly benevolent deity would not ask a father to take the life of their child.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
You got too far into the video, you should have stopped watching at exactly 3 minutes and 2 seconds.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
So I should either agree or stop watching? Yeah sorry, no. If you're going to put up the claim that IF god is truly benevolent, then its okay to kill your kid on his command then your claim is self refuting.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
"So I should either agree or stop watching?"
Nope, I didn't say agree or stop watching. The video is meaningless if you are not prepared to put yourself in the shoes of someone who genuinely **does** believe these things - i couldn't give a flying crap if they are logically consistent or not. If I asked you to imagine you could fly would you whine back 'I can't i can't, i haven't got wings, my bone densityis too great!' or would you just shut your mind off to the awkward bits...
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
...and imagine you could fly?
The whole point of that part of the video is to say that for anyone who believes these fundamental things then, in fact, these conclusions don't seem so illogical. Your retort that the fundamentals are illogical is just irrelevant.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
I have put myself in his shoes, I've been a fundamentalist Christian and when I started reading the bible on my own, and reading some of the horrible things god has done in the bible, I began to question god and the rest was history. So yes, if someone thinks their god is truly benevolent, but thinks that killing their child would be a truly benevolent they're still in the wrong.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
I am not saying he isn't wrong i am saying his conclusion is consistent with his pre-held beliefs and your value judgement that instantly sending a child to a place of total perfection is evil (I am looking at it from his perspective) is, in my judgement, an erroneous assessment of his position.
he is wrong, indeed, but wrong because the fundamental principles themselves are wrong - his belief in an omnibenevolent agent is wrong in the first place.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
so you're just stating what we already knew about his position? Good job, way to really clear up the air there. Nobody is sitting around saying "why would he say that" they're saying that its a screwed up position and they're shocked and a little bit frightened that he would actually say that. That he would actually consider killing his own child.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
"so you're just stating what we already knew about his position?"
If that is what you think then i would have welcomed that comment as your legitimate criticism. However, that was nothing like the comment you left.
Tbh I didn't realise my video was so diffcult to understand as to cause so much confusion as to its message.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
"If you're going to put up the claim that IF god is truly benevolent, then its okay to kill your kid on his command then your claim is self refuting. "
I'm not putting up any fucking claims. What i am saying is that for someone who already believes that God is omnibenevolent; already believes that God is omniscient; already believes that for anything that bad that happens here reparations will come in the next life THEN the conclusion JF makes logically follows?
Everyone else gets it
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
I think you just don't understand why people had a problem with his comment. Its not because he would follow god's commands its because the command is evil and he would even consider following it. Oh and nice f-bomb, if you're not willing to communicate like an adult you'll be treated like a child. Oh and "everybody" at this point is 1/6 of the viewers.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
Then I suggest you go through the comments and see if 5/6 of the people who left a comment agree with your assessment, i think i can find only two others out of over 100.
PS: Newsflash, adults swear, so get with the fucking programme (feel free to swear yourself btw, the only thing i can't abide on my vids is people who post all caps)!
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
Let me ask you a question though Dudeamis.
You are asserting that if you truly believed God was (1)omnibenevolent, (2)omniscient and made (3)reparations for any suffering in an eternal perfect afterlife on what rational grounds would you NOT do as he asks and kill your child (we are assuming 100% certainty that God exists and is making the request)? Remember, your refusal cannot negate either 1,2 or 3 or you don't truly believe them. So give me your argument, please :)
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
if a god were to ask me to do this, it would instantly cancel out 1. No benevolent god would ask this, no matter what my previous held opinion was.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
An understandable choice - in the real world especially- but then your problem is with that fundamental claim, that God is Omnibenevolent, not with the conclusion reached when that claim is taken as given.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
again you're beating a dead horse, everybody understands why JF made the statement he made. Nobody is asking "why would he say that" they're saying "here's another example why religion is messed up". JF's point of view is very similar to the guys who commit the 9/11 terrorist activities. They believed that their god was perfect and that they were doing good by doing what they perceived to be god's commands. Understanding his POV in no way diminishes the evil of it.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
"Understanding his POV in no way diminishes the evil of it." Of course it doesn't, but it makes sure we don't get sidetracked by the symptoms alone to the exclusion of the root causes.
i have made two videos on this now and i would really like you to tell me where you think i have excused JF and said his opinions are right?
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
When did I say you were excusing him? Understanding him doesn't serve any purpose and like I've said many times your videos only communicate what we already knew.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@noelplum99
So the comments represent everyone's opinion. I don't leave a comment at every video I watch, do you? You have over a thousand views and less than 10% of that in comments.
Go ahead and swear if you don't mind sounding like an uneducated halfwit who has a problem expressing himself intelligently.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
"Go ahead and swear if you don't mind sounding like an uneducated halfwit who has a problem expressing himself intelligently."
I don't know whay but this actually had me laughing, not even really sure why.
Ok, what about other videos? I trade you godlesshayes, abusiveantitheist and conferencereport off the top of my head who have made the same point in video responses. I cannot recall a single video disputing the position other than two by theists on additional theological grounds.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
I actually already went off on abusiveatheist. Maybe you should look up bionicdance's or do a basic search for JF right now, I've seen easily a half dozen or so comments against him.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
I watched BD's video but she wasn't arguing the opposite, her point was entirely different. I certainly didn't see within her video where she argued the irrationality of JF's conclusion GIVEN his pre-existing framework of beliefs. I was actually a bit disappointed in keight tbh, as JF here is being criticised (rightly imo) for answering a hypothetical and yet when i asked her a hypothetical in her comments she refused to answer, saying I was trying to find a 'loophole' in her argument
noelplum99 1 year ago
@Dudeamis
...and ask to JF getting some comments against him, er, i am NOT actually defending the guy here, did you actually watch my video?
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
I did, but apparently since I didn't side with you I wasn't supposed to.
Dudeamis 1 year ago
You know, the thing is: i don't believe Cristians when they say that they believe in heaven and the afterlife and all that jazz. Because when someone they love dies, they cry just as loud as we do. And they weep not because they're left behind and the dead one is already in heaven, but because they know that this is forever. And they try to fight off death just as hard as we do, sometimes even harder, hiding again behind their religion.
giliellthesecond 1 year ago
@giliellthesecond
i quite agree with that, anyone they expect to go to heaven they should be less upset about (and anyone they would expect to go to hell they should be permanently inconsolable about)
noelplum99 1 year ago
I have a friend who recently succumbed to mental illness. Nothing too severe, he is ok now, but for a while he suffered from paranoid delusions. Not 'kill your kids' stuff, he just thought everyone was on his case with no reason.
I saw him struggling to come to terms with what he felt & what was rational to believe. He mostly succeeded. I can't help but wonder what would happen if someone like jezuzfreek became mentally ill? His mindset might reinforce rather than conflict with his delusions.
SAHBfan 1 year ago
The correct answer is: I would never kill a child under any circumstance. Any variation on this answer what so ever should be a cause for concern.
Replace God with any other word and the real problem with what he said is revealed.
groovyengineer 1 year ago
@groovyengineer
I'm not so sure about that. If someone admitted they would kill one child to save a million I wouldn't feel concerned at their decision.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
If that kid were mine, I'm sorry to say, that million is damned.
giliellthesecond 1 year ago
@giliellthesecond
That is an understandable response though not a response that allows you to take any moral high ground.
In other words, I don't see how you can claim that is the 'correct response' which was groovyengineer's assertion.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99 It gives me the moral high ground of being honest. I also consider such hypothetical situations that are never going to happen (honestly, can you imagine such a realitic scenario?) totally futile in moral discussions. Because people ARE claiming a moral high ground by paying lip service to something they never have to really stand up for. It's like all those people in Germany saying that they would have stood against Hitler when their parents and grandparents didn't.
giliellthesecond 1 year ago
@giliellthesecond
"It gives me the moral high ground of being honest."
Not over jezuzfreek it doesn't, he was being honest also.
Bear in mind when you talk about situations that would never happen, whilst I have some sympathy with what you say (though I disagree they are futile) the same equally applies to the situation that was set out before jezuzfreek.
I suppose i made the retort to groovyengineer because I dislike unqualified statements unless they are really meant without qualification
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99 "Bear in mind when you talk about situations that would never happen, whilst I have some sympathy with what you say (though I disagree they are futile) the same equally applies to the situation that was set out before jezuzfreek."
I recommend watching Pooka's video "killing in the name of". People killing their kids because "god told them to" is real. "your kid or 1 million other kids" isn't. It's not a moral dilemma that has any value because people claim shit for appearing moral
giliellthesecond 1 year ago
@giliellthesecond
I have seen his video. His video deals with, and this is only my opinion though i don't think you would argue with it, people who erroneously believe that God has spoken to them, not people who genuinely have been instructed by God (primarily i say this on the basis that there is no god).
If you think I am anywhere suggesting this doesn't happen then check out my other video on this subject where i discuss this in terms of risk analysis. I mean i totally accept that kind of...
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
...thing happens, it would be almost beyond the realm of possibility for it not to given a billion Christians in the world, the big practical question is whether it happens often enough to justify removing the children from the homes of millions of fundies.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99 Well, the problem is, people who only believe that god has spoken to them and those to whom god has really spoken to are indistinguishable from one another.
But I don't know how people always jump from "alert child protection service" to "remove from home". That's not what they're about, they're usually about checking whether there is a real problem and whether they can help parents struggeling with parenting to improve. So, if somebody claims they would kill their kid if...
giliellthesecond 1 year ago
@noelplum99 ...god told them to, and we know those things happen, and we know that person seems a bit, hmm, instable, wouldn't it be a good idea to check whether that person really is a danger to the kids or not.
You can hear me saying things like "I'll kill the brat" at least once a week, but nobody is alerted because I don't give the impression of sincerely meaning it.
giliellthesecond 1 year ago
@noelplum99 It is a concern if God is the one giving you the choice.
groovyengineer 1 year ago
People who have a god that is crazy say and do crazy things.
You got it.
SamWiseGingy 1 year ago
People who have a god that is crazy say and do crazy things.
SamWiseGingy 1 year ago
ABOLISH ALL RELIGIONS, THEY ARE CONTROLLING ,EXCESSIVE AND A THREAT TO HUMANITY.
AntiPsychopath 1 year ago
Great video!
What I think everyones problem about this is, why would God ask this of someone? What grounds would God need you to kill your kid and you accept? Jezuzfreek doesn't seem to go into detail about it, and he just says "Yeah, because God said so".
I agree with you though, it's definitely a symptom of something much bigger.
JOKERSFREAK 1 year ago
Right on target; we all speak from a frame of reference and if one dont have the same reference, it wont make sense, but that doesnt make it....stupid/wrong....etc.
vedlatigid 1 year ago
i like this guy.
VitaminF12 1 year ago
Noel, many atheists were never religious and cannot fathom the thought processes of Anthony at all. As an ex-Christian I can totally understand where Anthony is coming from and I fully agree with your statement that these are all symptoms. At some level, criticizing the individual quirky remarks that Christians make is time wasted since (a) it won't change the views of that Christian and (b) there's plenty more people who think the same way. The core reasons must be addressed. Great video!
shadroth 1 year ago
Your clock is awesome. Last video it did reveal a little bit on your "streams of consciousness" appearance. Regardless, I love the way you analyze situations, never just accepting something on face value. I think you are probably right here, that the bigger picture of all Christians would do the exact same thing that JF777 would do. Like you clearly pointed out, what are a few miserable mortal years compared to infinity in bliss? Noelplum, great in depth analysis again. Kudos!
charlesfloyb 1 year ago
To be fair, the Bible doesn't entirely advocate unquestioning obedience to God. Moses and Abraham argued with God and won. I'd think talking back to God is the correct Christian response.
AceOfSevens 1 year ago
But then again, the theory that God is all benevolent can't make sense because even if he can give someone an eternal and wonderful life, his daring alone to ask a parent to kill their child can not be a benevolent act, taking under consideration what kind of infinitely horrid experience that would be for that parent and the child. In the reality of what normal (default) human mind consists of, If this God existed I would consider him a sick, extremely, malevolent psycho/should be neutralized.
flyingshitter 1 year ago
That clock has free masonic symbolism hidden deep within it's sexyness, ask Gorilla.
28steryan 1 year ago
Your clock is awesome. As a gay man, I am impressed. :P
AtheistdotEDU 1 year ago
I nevr seen the original video by Jezuzfreak, and i know i'm probably repeating a well debunked thought...The question was put to him that if God asked him to kill his child (like In a certain section of the bible), surely Jezuzfreak was putting himself in the place of Abraham so many thousands of years ago...with the ACTUAL god (sorry for the caps) doing the asking...Has anyone asked him if he heard the voice of God today would he do the same? I'm wondering if he maybe fell for a trap here.
sugelanren 1 year ago
I love anthropology. Objectivity is necessary for anyone who is interested in anthropology. And I must say, your video was dead on track. JesusFreak is thinking exactly as he would be expected to--considering the mindset he holds as a result of his Christian beliefs. I don't think "God" is going to tell him to kill his child. However, the child better not turn out to be drunken, stubborn, and rebellious, because the Bible, which JesusFreak assumes is "God's" word, says to kill such rotten apples
unseenstrings 1 year ago
loving the glowing hand effect at 5:23
FantasmaBAnco 1 year ago
Yeah, I agree with you. (besides it being a problem part of course) That was exactly what I was thinking, but you said it much more clearly than I would have.
owchywawa 1 year ago
I'm definately on your page with this one, mate.
Hereticbooks 1 year ago
I'm definately on your page with this one, mate.
Hereticbooks 1 year ago
There is a YT video featuring a sermon by Doug Coe of C Street fame in which he admires how Mao's Red Guard tested the obedience of their recruits by having them decapitate their parents and show no emotion while doing it. This is no different than what was expected of Abraham.
deepashtray 1 year ago
I've missed you and glad you're back. I enjoy your unique perspective.
NihlisticAlchemist 1 year ago
your clock is stupid.
TheUnillogical 1 year ago
@TheUnillogical
I didn't actually realise the 'intelligent clock' had been invented yet but yes, you are correct, my clock lacks even the most rudimentary intelligence.
noelplum99 1 year ago
3 things. 1) sorry for the troll comment. 2) Which Football Team do you support 3) I think you missed a trick here. Jezuzfreek answered a question put to him in the same way as any other fundamentalist Christian would. Superfly is a clever guy so surely he realise's this. He seems to be more concerned that Jezuzfreek said it than that he believed it because surely he realises that for JF777 and thousands of others they HAVE to believe it. Therefore, to call him evil etc was not rational.
TheUnillogical 1 year ago
I'm not contradicting you btw, I'm adding to your arguements. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
TheUnillogical 1 year ago
@TheUnillogical
1) no problem
2) None in particular, though I would like to see Arsenal win this year (good win by them tonight in the champions league). Always had a bit of a soft spot for Newcastle though.
3) I don't know if you saw my other video that I made a day earlier on this subject? I touch on this very issue that for every JF there are a million who think the same but keep their mouths shut.
noelplum99 1 year ago
I posit that there are no 'true" christians in existence. If they truly believed that god was omnibenevolent, then why would any christian wear a seatbelt, or stop for red lights for that matter?
What troubles me about Jezuzfreek777 is his selection of the murder of his child as a sign of his devotion to god, when he could have selected other, less violent displays from the bible to show his devotion.
His other channel Jezuzfreek7777, shows him cleaning his handguns.
curiouser and curiouser.
MyGodTheresNoGod 1 year ago
good vid. subscribed.
JackofOneTrade567 1 year ago
@JackofOneTrade567
excellent!
noelplum99 1 year ago
Just as I should have said it myself, if I had the ability to put is so eloquently. It is a pleasure watching your videos.
Siddis33 1 year ago
A great deal of the Christian perception has to do with just how abstract the issue is. It's more concrete to anyone that has had a child. Remove that one level, the child to be killed is a stranger, and it becomes easier. Easier still if the child was in a distant country. The Second Coming? Revelations is very abstract and vague. It becomes so vague it's easier to trust in faith and accept human suffering on a grand scale as the realization of prophesy, even if it means permanent damage.
deepashtray 1 year ago
Sooo glad you're back.
DeverHB 1 year ago
Great video. What JF777 said isn't so much the problem in and of itself. The problem is the mindset which lead up to his answer. This same principle can be applied to just about all warped fundamentalist opinions if one wants to understand how someone can think such things.
elsquibbs 1 year ago
I agree completely. I don't find jezuzfreak's position controversial at all.. the premise of the question was that you know God is speaking too you.. then surely even the most hardcore atheist would do the same? All I get from all this is that jezuzfreak thought it through more than most people and gave a truthful and completely sensible answer.
pkingo1 1 year ago
Good video Jim :)
You're right the difference is that JF is answering the question with the 'knowledge' that God is speaking to him; whereas an atheists is answering the same question with the knowledge that the 'voice' isn't God but a form of insanity. We have to imagine that JF would need to be 100% certain that his God is talking to him.
I wonder where YouTube debate is going if people call the authorities over answers to hypothetical questions! Some atheists are as crazy as the religious!
mousegeek 1 year ago
Not bad at all, that was only a little more than 20 minutes of talking. My rants inevitably take longer to get out... OK they're usually on radio and 30 minutes long but still, they take days to put together.
thorungal 1 year ago
@thorungal
After I made the video it occured to me that it would have been quite amusing if each edit i had moved the clock forward an hour or so - bit of a wasted opportunity that.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99 or even slowly backwards.
thorungal 1 year ago
@noelplum99
It would have been even better if you'd moved it backwards.
ransomdave 1 year ago
I think the criticism against JF is that his beliefs are dangerous because they allow him to possibly see infanticide in that way like you say, everyone knows that.
CMO999 1 year ago
Even after suspending my disbelief, and accepting something like a benevolent god and heavenly afterlife, I'm STILL left with a major problem--that is whether I'm able to tell messages of that god from voices in my head. I have no way of doing so.
Religion allows schizophrenics to pretty easily blend into society.
HelplessVictim 1 year ago
@HelplessVictim You act like there is a choice. Schizophrenics usually believe the voices they hear or the hallucinations they see.
Uhlbelk 1 year ago
@HelplessVictim
Or the messages of God from those of the devil, posing as God in a bid to entice you to infanticide.
noelplum99 1 year ago
Great video as always. I think the idea that rational thought depends on what you believe to be true, is a problem but is not just a problem with religion. There are scientific truths that lead to truly horrible conclusions if taken down a rational path. These videos bring about response because we hold some sanctity of life, whether because of religion or atheism or naturalism. Why is life held sacred. I can imagine dozens of rational conclusions that are quite problematic with this one belief.
Uhlbelk 1 year ago
Good video. Really clearly stated and well articulated (I'm taking notes). The only observation I would make is that is that a symptom of irrational belief is talking about doing reprehensible things because god tells you to, not actually doing anything.
conferencereport 1 year ago
Is it just me or does 9:46 sound a lot like Pascal's Wager? Not sure what to read out of that.
theneonfire 1 year ago
The question then becomes do we call the CPS on everyone who has the same amount of faith as Anthony or at least enough for them to do what God asked? I wouldn't want to work for the CPS then!
Orygyn 1 year ago 2
I always wondered if that is why the catholic church made suicide an unforgivable sin. Otherwise there is no reason not to want to die and leave this plane of existence while you are in good graces so that you can go to heaven and not waste any more time here on earth.
SouthernRaisedAtheis 1 year ago
Reason always trumps intuition, and leads to a more accurate conclusion, which this video brilliantly demonstrates.
Good work.
VapidZero 1 year ago
No offense but what is all the stuff about jesusfreak77 about?.
gugagagagreprpr 1 year ago
When I first happened upon this drama I did the same thought experiment you proposed here. I assumed god to exist and be omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent just as JF777 might.
Now if god told me that I had to kill my child, that the child will be welcomed into heaven and that this is desirable, then I must consider how this would affect me. If I was given such a task it would cause me great distress and would therefore not be a purely good act which leads me to 2 conclusions. cont...
AsifVidios 1 year ago
Cont...
Either;
1. God is not all omnipotent or not omnibenevolent (as in the problem of evil) because he requires that I commit the act which will cause much more distress than if the child were to ascend to heaven.
2. It is not god.
AsifVidios 1 year ago
I think even in this parallel universe in which the biblical god exists. If I thought this god was telling me to kill a child, that I would at first question my own sanity for a second before jumping for the knife drawer. The method of the delivery of the message should play a role.
fractal420 1 year ago
Religion pretends to be innocent and noble: providing a moral framework and guiding people to follow God's alleged gentle proding to serve good.
The truth is that religion is nothing more than a big business that manipulates weak humans to make them believe that their moral duty is to support the intitutions that purport to represent God's will for man, preferably with lots of $.
The grotesque aspect is that they teach that God's will (as they see it) trumps all else, even your child's life.
themsfightinwoids 1 year ago
Sorry, but that's just beyond my ability to suspend disbelief.
It's really hard to think clearly about this subject, though. Some ancient instinct keeps howling.
odwin8 1 year ago
So, you're saying that belief in religion is the core problem and that following the individual tenets of the religion are the symptoms. If there were no religions, there would be no people murdering others as a result of believing that god told them to do it.
1140Cecile 1 year ago
your whole video was exactly what i was thinking from the start of this drama.
johnnyd101 1 year ago
@johnnyd101
Even the part where he took a swig of the coffee?
jeb31415 1 year ago
@jeb31415 especially that part :)
johnnyd101 1 year ago
Very good point.
ristinraccoon 1 year ago
I don't know what the original question was, but if it was definitely God asking (ignoring the contradictions obviously) then killing the child would be a great way to go. Depends how much doubt was in the question really.
Nashy119 1 year ago
What you say here is demonstrated on a daily basis by Muslim suicide bombers. They become martyrs and go to Paradise, and any Muslim they happen to kill in the process will also be martyred. The Abrahamic faiths are saying is that life gets so much better after you're dead. This is a death cult. In the messianic traditions this extends to include the destruction of the planet. They revel at any news of war and natural, humanitarian or environmental disaster. Destruction is rewarded in heaven.
deepashtray 1 year ago
just what is your point?
420messenger 1 year ago
I think what people are missing in the story of Abraham and Isaac is that it was a refutation of human sacrifice. Been a long time since I've studied the story or the text itself. But wasn't that one of the major covenants that ol' Jawhew made with the people of Israel(and later Christians) is that He would never again ask for such a sacrifice? If memory serves, then that should have been JF's answer in the first place and it also makes the question moot when asked to a modern day Xtian.
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago 2
I do agree with you in every single point, but you should be more specific to what benevolent means. Actually not what it means but what it implies, i know that it means that everything that god does to us is good, but the question I have is , is something good because god does it or god does it because it is good ?
tekhiun 1 year ago
@tekhiun
I think the video was long enough without a discourse on the euthyphro dilemma!!
noelplum99 1 year ago
Great points and I couldn't agree more. Attacking the symptoms isn't necessarily the best course of action, but I think, attacking the root-cause will win no battles with people's beliefs. I do think pointing out these symptoms, showing one's disgust of them, ridiculing them if need be is a one of a few ways in guiding some people to rethink their "root-causes".
I would hope at best, even if these root-causes aren't dealt with by the believer that the symptoms are made as benign as possible.
ShallowBeThyGames 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@VitaVeritasVictoria-we can almost positively say that god is not going to fly down tomorrow and ask for these sacrifices.
I agree. The problem is many Christians believe that their own internal monologue is God speaking to them through the holy spirit. If that internal monologue says you should kill gays, prostitutes, abortion doctors, or in extreme cases your own children how do you distinguish between it being what God wants, and what you want, particularly in the case of sociopaths.
TheNakedAtheist 1 year ago
Comment removed
TheNakedAtheist 1 year ago
There is also the issue of how to deal with JF in terms of a response other than calling CPS or acting as if he is an extremely rare fuckwit & thus not a "true Christian." One way is to explore the story itself, noting that Abe's God had forbid child sacrifice for the Canaanites, & that this is NOT a normative story for man to go about doing horrid things based on the InnerVoice as God never intended any such kid killing. Dealing w/i JF's own context of belief cud give a better basis to judge.
gedgetips 1 year ago
Yes, this gets more at the heart of the issue where it is not so much that JF is an isolated & twisted fellow, but instead he is expressing a mainstream position which is "reasonable" given the God Delusion. I mentioned this point in a few comments elsewhere & nobody responded so good to see you cover this as a problem with belief in God more than a problem with the person of JF777.
gedgetips 1 year ago 2
yes, totally my thoughts too. all xians are hypocrites. otherwise every parent would, for the sake of their children, risk to go to hell themselfs in killing their babies directly after birth (maybe a little baptism first, depending on the version of xianiy). that way the children have no chance to commit any sin, hence go to heaven for sure.
of course i hope no one would actually follow this line of thoughts, but im sure it already happened before.
theheinzification 1 year ago
Pretty much. I've been debating with some Christians on a forum lately. When I put myself back into their shoes, the whole thing does make sense, god is magical, supernatural, so he can do anything he wants, we can NEVER understand his reasoning because we are so ignorant in comparison. Heaven is of course real, and all you have to do to go there is follow the bible or the quran and beleive in god/jesus as divine beings, which can do whatever they want regardless what we think about it.
DJBerber 1 year ago
"Maybe what that is the symptom"...EXACTLY!
I think it the consciousness of fundamentalism, demands the necessity not to question the tenets of your faith. You are told what you must do to avoid eternal damnation. You are told that 'god' knows more than you do and in spite of appearances, he is both omniscient AND omnibenevolent and yet he's COMMANDING you to do something your conscience rejects.
That is the systemic problem here, and it's a problem with a very long and bloody history...
2bsirius 1 year ago
@2bsirius That's exactly right. I was a fundamentalist, and that's exactly how I thought.
violentlygraceful 1 year ago