The most entertaining aspect of youtube is reading the comments from the "super egos." Why are all the self proclaimed experts watching introductory videos?
@KissakiSan Again, if you knew what a DEBATE was, you would know that this is not one. Do you run your contests like this, whoever just keeps coming back no matter how empty handed, wins?
@KissakiSan While I would agree that it has been diminished in modern fencing as well, it still exists in the context of the history of the development of modern fending. Your group looks like a bunch of fantasy faire guys who began to take themselves too seriously. And I am NOT saying that texts don't exist, but some have been found in dubious ways to make dubious historical claims. Modern marines train with pugil sticks, so I'm not sure about "extinct" claims.
@KissakiSan After all your disdainful language regarding Renn Faire based fighting, you are hold up a Renn Faire inspired organization as your credentials? The Association of Renaissance Martial Arts?
I studied that period for years. There is a reason it was superseded. But what you really miss is the progression of history of the duel of honor and the final development of 2nd generation warfare. You and apparently your group miss the cultural reasons for Western martial arts.
@KissakiSan The telling point is not all these organization formed in the past 20 years and getting themselves onto lists. I cannot rate your adjectives since you already have shown a propensity to exaggerate and use hyperbole in commenting. UNESCO doesn't examine petitioners, I checked. Neither is it a sanctioning body for any sport or MA. The telling point is just how many members are involved?
@KissakiSan I left out that French foil is used to teach finger tip control of the point, something that benefits the fencer no matter where they go next as finger tip expertise improved ANY type of sword work. I used it to my advantage in all sorts of sword contests after 14 years of foil only competition. And as an accomplished equestrian, trained and awarded, the legs are used more than the hands, and it is all about balance, so unicycle comparison is actually right!
@deaddoc The best equestrians can ride without their hands at all. Western riders are famous for being heavy handed. The equestrian saddle is used for what is called "close contact" riding found in Euro Dressage, jumping, and hunt riding, which is also derived from military use. Dressage is French and means "training." I was last doing mounted saber drilling on my horse in the mid 1990s.
@KissakiSan So? This is an unneeded reply. It says nothing to me that I don't know already or the details that make bigger points of discussion, like the fact that the 14th battle sword was designed to pierce chain mail and get around plate mail.
@KissakiSan Saw an episode of the new series "Ultimate Warrior." A bit nerdy, mixing distant individuals, but the best and most accurate was Napoleon vs George Washington. Washington's small sword derived blade beat Napoleon's Egyptian based saber. Point was proven superior.
@KissakiSan They must be from a very weak division. No one in a strong division can qualify in all three weapons. Getting into nationals from a weak division does not prove anything. Where was this place? Everyone knows that you must focus on a specific weapon to get anywhere. You again expose your lack of knowledge and experience. Perhaps you are lying just to save face.
I said; NO real master recommends starting on anything but French foil. I will not repeat the reasons.
@KissakiSan Funny, you insulted me first, and you don't even recognize it, it seems. You got personal first. You are so desperate that you fell to denigrating the small sword in a very transparent way. As for debate, you don't know the meaning of it. A debate is judged by others. this is an argument. If you were honorable to begin with, you would have admitted your error and not insulted me. You will reply because you are basically a brat.
@KissakiSan You are not saying anything here. You were wrong in defending saber as a good way to start fencing and could not admit it, after I presented a tight explanation of why it was wrong and must go on expanding, looking for places to claim a victory. This is exactly the sort of person who does fantasy sword like "RMA." Only you guys are worse for the extent of your fraud and lies.
@KissakiSan This shows your inability to present a logical argument. Since fencing existed for centuries, neither "RMA" or what goes on at Renn Faires could do anything but borrow from it. You have retrograde thought patterns, which is how "RMA" was formed, by putting together what was desired from what already existed. You're an exposed and well understood fraud everywhere.
@KissakiSan I have known about the fake history you guys created to form your little niche of nerdiness. My guess is that Hand saw fellow countryman Mel in Hamlet and liked the fencing that fellow Aussie and great fight director William Hobbs and decided to model a form after it. BTW; I've done some fight directing too.
@KissakiSan Because even though this has gone on FAR TOO LONG, I am not going to write down every bit of my experience and knowledge, it would take too long. 500 characters. You go off topic so often like you do here. RMA are the biggest buffoons of all, because they are dishonest about the entire foundation. Oh yeah, The Da Vinci Code of martial arts, cyphers and conspiracies by modern fencing and all. What junk. You were wrong on the first point and had to go on.
@KissakiSan I checked the UNESCO site. They don't vet applicants. All you need do is apply and that is what happened. Getting on a list is NOT world recognition as a valid, historical martial art. You are just pretending that it does.
@KissakiSan This reminds me; Until recently, Fencing was recognized as THE only Western martial art. Since the advent of Stephan Hand and co., the notion of this has been pushed for promoting his own claimed revival of earlier forms as distinct or somehow unique. He acted inductively, going out looking for material to support his aim. None of his sources have been accredited as authentic. Again, no one cares if you made up a little assoc. To claim world recognition - a lie
@KissakiSan Kung Fu is based on much hype and less reality. Tricks with bricks and sticks does not an Olympic sport make. If they let in every claim to legitimacy then even your bogus association and claims would be included in the Olympics. UNESCO allows any application, especially these days, due to politics. I have an associate who is on the USOC, and this is well known. Hand and your groups has been working to legitimize itself through this, but no one cares.
@KissakiSan Doesn't change what I was saying. The associations you list are new and constructed by its promoters, like Hand, who have financial interests. I know all about it. And it was YOU who said that you did Renn Faires and got people going by taking shortcuts, which is how this discussion got started. I said, there are no shortcuts to mastery. This was why you said your fencing teacher justified saber. Still incorrect. And "effective" is AS WHAT?
@KissakiSan This entire "conversation" occurred because you claimed that saber was a fine place to begin instruction in MF. Nothing you have said has defended that. You said that it got people "up" quickest and I said that shortcuts create bad habits, even in fantasy sword work, which is what your form is since it is known to be based on likely forged documents and led by discredited, non-objective people. You're acting in a small world that leads no where.
@KissakiSan 10. The New York Fencers Club, founded in 1883, is the oldest continuous running club devoted exclusively to fencing in the U.S. made by Georgio Santelli, New York fencing instructor and equipment manufacturer. Most recently, movie star Jerry O'Connell - saber.
10. The New York Fencers Club, founded in 1883, is the oldest continuous running club devoted exclusively to fencing in the U.S.
@KissakiSan 9. Famous Fencers: Bruce Dickinson, the lead singer of Iron maiden - foil. Neil Diamond, entertainer - sabre. Prince Albert of Monaco - sabre. Andrew Jackson fought a duel of honor with swords. General George Patton, competed in fencing in the 1912 Olympics and once owned a riding crop with a blade in the handle made by Georgio Santelli, New York fencing instructor and equipment manufacturer.
@KissakiSan 7. There was originally no time limit on a fencing bout, until a Masters Championship bout in New York in the 1930s lasted for seven hours. Thereafter, bouts were limited to 30 minutes. Today, the time-limit has been reduced to just 3 minutes for 5-touch bouts and 9 minutes for 15 touches.
8. Fencers wear white uniforms because before the advent of electronic scoring, touches were recorded on the white surface with a wad of ink-soaked cotton on the tips of the weapons.
@KissakiSan 5. The 750 gram weight test used to ensure a touch is scored with sufficient force is based on the amount of tension required to break the skin. In a duel, honor was done when blood was first drawn -- even if from a minor wound such as a blister.
6. The target area in sabre, originally a cavalry weapon, is from the waist up because it is contrary to the rules of chivalry to injure an opponent's horse.
@KissakiSan 4. Fencing is conducted on a 14m x 2m "strip" or "piste" to replicate combat in confined quarters such as a castle hallway. The end of the fencing strip represents the line drawn in the earth by duelists' seconds: to retreat behind this line during the duel indicated cowardice and loss of honor.
1. Fencing is one of only four sports to be included in every modern Olympic Games, since the first in 1896. Fencing was also a sport in the original Olympic Games in ancient Greece.
2. Baron Pierre de Coubertin, the father of the modern Olympic Games, was a fencer.
3. The tip of the fencing weapon is the second fastest moving object in sport; the first is the marksman's bullet.
@KissakiSan If you are using the modern on guard, then you are not period, wherever you think you are. Yes, people tried different things, but the general rule is not the modern guard for pre 17 c fighting. I know about the claims of Stephan Hand. He is known to be a forger and a very unpleasant person as are most of his followers from my own and others experience. Just look at his book reviews on Amazon.
@KissakiSan Modern saber IS from mounted battlefield use. The reason upper body is foul is because it was considered a disgrace to strike horse. There was an ongoing debate over the straight or curved weapon, but as cavalry was intended as a shock force, people like Patton argued that the straight saber was superior. Curved is for infantry, but it is risky to spend much time there. The last models of British, French, and American sabers were straight, point intended weapons.
@KissakiSan You are incorrect, as my posted USFA historical list shows. Saber is from mounted cavalry saber. Foil and epee ARE from the chivalric duel of honor, not a melee, as in battlefield. The small sword was for dueling and did develop in the 18 c, HOWEVER you are wrong about battlefield absence. In the 18c and Napoleonic Wars, officers would use them against one another when met - no one interfered. That was 2nd Generation War style and the chivalric model. at its height.
@KissakiSan I wondered when you were going to bring up those highly debatable and likely fraudulent documents that people like Stephan Hand have promoted as factual. But for every period of fencing that you can set yourself into, there was a reason for discarding in WITHIN the realm of sword and fighting logic, not outside issues like the advent of gunpowder. Your little RMA world is bogus and the far majority out there in the relative world knows it.
@KissakiSan Your history is skewed and based on incorrect stereotypes. Early firearms were horribly inaccurate. The longer light swords that arrived in the late medieval period got through armor crevices and rendered heavy armor obsolete first. Wong on fencing history too. The tradition of fencing that led to the latest model is a continuous evolution since the Greeks. I will post some data from the USFA website here for you to deny.
@KissakiSan I was involved with it right up through the 90s. I have far more experience in viewing the evolution that you do by your own admittance here. Light years? LOL There is still a large fantasy core to what is being done, it is plain from youtube videos. The fantasy element is greater than ever and not "light years" ahead of anything.
@KissakiSan And finally, You obviously haven't learned enough to know that the modern en garde position was developed in order to present less target and allow better and longer reach. It evolved from practical experience and trials in real duels. Moreover, as a DC who also had a long and accomplished fencing career, (whether you acknowledge it or not) I know that mastering the en guarde correctly will prevent orthopedic injuries and other biomechanical problems. U R unqualified.
@KissakiSan C4; The three modern weapons are descended and evolved from the final Western school of the martial art of fencing. These Faire forms you hold out, have no pedigree, were fabricated by fantasy faire reenactors. The best of them are still bastardized forms of play. There is not national or world recognized contests or ranking systems, and certainly no Olympic tradition behind them. They aren't comparable. But a well trained foilist can adapt to any of them quickly.
@KissakiSan Cont3; They may write a book on it, but it is inductively arrived at' That is, the form is established and then justification for it is sought and made mailable by desire. Fencing is a modern Olympic sport that has a pedigree going back at least 2 thou years, earlier to Greece. It is evolved from the chivalric duel. The notion of sportsmanship came from fencing and dueling. To wit, the father of the modern Olympics was Baron Pierre de Coubertin. He was a fencer. C4;
@KissakiSan Cont2; 2. Schools and colleges are lax in applying that rule in America because they want to fill classes and typically don't understand the need to start with foil. 3. I was one of the originators of the trend of various sword forms arriving at Renn Faires. I was doing in the late 70s and 80s at the original CA faires. They have existed for no more than 30 years or so. They are largely constructed from fantasy and then given some hx justification of a sort. Cont3
@KissakiSan You've made NO point here, and you're just looking for ways to insult me. I have presented a tight argument and you will not admit it. You might wonder how I might have acquired such rare items. So here is a quick recap; 1. Foil is the pivot weapon and is the best to begin with, ALL real masters know that. There are occasional renegades but that is the long standing rule of thumb. Easy to confirm that,just look. Cont2;
@KissakiSan The two I mentioned were important fencers from Europe who came to the US. Both had fought duels as well. Chuck Norris is not a fencer. The two I mentioned have been deceased for a long time. The fact that you don't know who they are is some amount of proof that you don't know fencing enough to discuss it as thoroughly as you pretend. You case is not solid. You have no rebuttal to what I said, so you try to counter with modern autographs.
@KissakiSan I also have signed photographs of Georges Santelli, Hans Halberstadt, and Ralph Faulkner. IF you don't know who they are, you don't know much about 20th century dueling and fencing - the real stuff.
@KissakiSan Finally, the reason you don't get the sense of what I and every real teacher of fending knows about foil first rule is that you mix things up so much you have no real specific knowledge. I spent a good decade in foil competition before I went to rapier and dagger experiments at the oldest Renn Faire in the US. I was so successful because of that. You are all mixed up. I have a parlor wall full of medals from AFLA/USFA competitions as well as awards from Faires.
@KissakiSan People have made up these styles, using historical texts to justify jumping into conclusions for their game, that is even less accurate than modern fencing. That is why a trained modern fencer can adapt quicker and win against people doing these fantasy game fencing. Fencing is derived, evolved from a real combat style that evolved itself and has a real place in history. The problem is that modern fencing is forgetting that in the US.
@KissakiSan I know all about the short cuts people created in these fantasy sword faire, SCA styles. There is no short cut to skill. What you get are people who don't want to spend the time or have the discipline for acquiring real skill and knowledge. That is why I always best these people at their own games. 1. I was a skilled in foil, 2. I was one of the inventors of rapier-dagger fencing at faires, as I said earlier.
@KissakiSan Got you there. I was one of the first people to do rapier dagger fencing at Faires in the early 1980s. I won most contests due to my long time national level foil experience. I saw all these fantasy schools you mention come into being. I have a large library on ancient, medieval and later sword history as well as having been a fight director. Modern en guard evolved as the most efficient. Doesn't change what I was saying.
@KissakiSan Again you make illogical comparisons. If you had done foil, you would be able to answer your own question. Foil teaches the student right of way, and a parry system that is easily adapted to saber. The Fench handle prepares the student for the saber handle, and the evasive moves in foil are not that dissimilar from saber. That with advantages for epee present as well. That is why foil is the pivotal weapon and learning with it 1st makes a better fencer overall.
@deaddoc And KissakiSan, I used to also train equestrian and won ribbons in hunt-jump. I also raced motorcycles successfully as a teen and young adult before fencing. So I know how logical your comparison is.... not at all. It really seems that you are the one trying to cling to something emotionally not logically. That won't help you as a fencer, either.
@KissakiSan I have to address this "ask any martial artist" point as well. I am a sports chiropractor as well as a one time national level fencer. Eastern Martial artists are not the basis of drawing a scientific recognition of biomechanics and neurophysiology in sports. Natural movements beyond running all have to be retrained to learn any skill sport. Fencing requires very unnatural training and bad habits are easy to retain. In the end, I did all three weapons, and more.
@KissakiSan My experience with many college level coaches is that they let students use whatever weapon they are attracted to and it is also universally known that people are more easily seduced by saber because of its use in films, and its more crude general application in blade swinging. Also, college teachers need students, so they are lax. Go to a real fencing academy in Europe and you will find I am being perfectly factual.
@KissakiSan Any real fencing master will tell you that fencing is NOT a natural thing in any way. In fact, it is all about mastering natural reactions. The on guard position is highly unnatural, which it why it is so hard to learn. I trained with the best American masters of my day, which included more than one foreign defector. Everyone knows this stuff. I am also a sports chiropractor who worked on Olympic athletes. You are mistaken about movement habits and reflexes, too
@KissakiSan Not at all. I actually perceived from the start that I was a natural saber fencer so I stuck to foil to master the more difficult and universally accepted rule that foil is the pivot weapon, having both saber and epee styles within it. Someone who starts and only does saber or epee can be good in it, but they will find it hard when ; a saber fencer tries to fence epee or visa versa. You are tying to make it personal, a matter of prejudice.
@KissakiSan Hmmm, that is not the long agreed upon rule of thumb. I think your coach just liked saber. Any world class coach will tell you that foil is the weapon to learn on. It is the pivot weapon. Saber is to be avoided just because it is too natural to swat, as you found. That encourages bad habits. The dexterity required for foil trains in the subtlety that will serve both saber and epee later.
I am afraid that I'm going to disagree with the video. As a fencer who has done both foil and epee competitively, I can say that Epee is just as good as a starting weapon as any other. I am one of the best fencers in my club and I frequently beat other fencers who began with foil (both in foil and in epee). My intention is not to start a "flame war" simply to point out that the I disagree with the woman in her opinion that foil is the optimum weapon for beginners. All weapons are viable.
@NilsxSin Without flaming. I must disagree with you. If you are beating foilsts, they will be less experienced in general. But any real fencing academy (in Europe) will tell you that foil has aspects of both saber and epee in and is the best place for the student to begin. Basing your views on your personal experienc in your region is a mistake. Listen to the real experts. (Not me, but Olympic level trainers or European academy masters).
Bullshit, Epee is the best, foil is much harder, you got less defense and much less places to hit - She is an idiot never listen to her! She doesn`t know how to fence at all!
@akithesniper That's right, foil is harder, so it requires more skill and refinement, which is easily transferred to epee and saber. She is right, listen to any real master as I have posted to several comments here. Also, your communication style is rotten. You will get nowhere in fencing or the world like that.
@bigbearjb4 ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. After years of competing in foil, I began to fence the two others and I feel I got a real full "sword" experience from it. I made my real achievements in foil, but had to much fun and learned so much of the "spirit of the sword" and the Western culture of it, by spreading out. It got me into theatrical fight directing a little and a lot of study of history too.
@clonedelta22 There is really no more practical weapon in fencing. If any had to be, it would be foil I think because historically it was the training weapon for dueling. You have to learn to make a vital hit in foil. Epee is the last model dueling sword, but if you hit in the thigh, the other guy is hitting you in the gut. Saber has had a lot of problems over the years. It was hard to electrify it, and before that, too many "reputation touches" occurred. Cont2;
@deaddoc Cont2; The problem with electric saber is that the blade will score with any blade contact of any pressure, so a non-cutting flat side blade lay on will cause a score to be registered. The other is that the equipment is very expensive compared to the other two. Having said that, electrified saber along with the new rules improved it and it is much more difficult than it used to be. I always enjoyed saber, but it is NOT the weapon to start with.
@deaddoc Cont3; FYI Sir Richard Burton (19th century explorer, writer), proved that the point of a sword is more deadly than the edge two ways; 1. the point travels a shorter distance to the target when it is thrust straight as it is supposed to be, where the edge weapon requires a wide arching sweep to cut. 2. A pierce is medically more deadly than a cut in general. Watch some modern saber fencing, they use the point a great deal. Look the 1977 film "The Duelists."
without points,face to face you wont give they wont give you cant go forward they they wont let you any ways nether of you want to push to hard,aţ the right moment throw im off guard balance commando!lol
Foil's great for basics but anyone that has been touched on the wrist while passing through the gate knows that epee is a completely different ball game.
@lowlounger Yes, epee is a game of caution, waiting for the other to make an error in movement or target exposure. Foil and saber require defensive moves so they are more aggressive due to having to deceive the defense. That is done with feints, disengages, blade movement, complex footwork, etc. But a lazy epee fencer won't win either. Foil was historically the training weapon for dueling and epee is the duel. But rather live with a wrist bleeding than die with a gut pierced.
I remember my coach said I was good with both foil and epee we never used sabre at the academy. Unless you signed up for longer we only used the two I mention. I love fencing.
@Trinibadman96 Just think of it as all your previous fouls being good and hit the switch in your brain. It is quite possible to go from being a good long time foil fencer to a good epee fencer. Many of the fencers in my former national level club were class A in both.
i wish i could fence with some one it looks really fun. does any one know where i could fence for fun or something i never fenced in my life but i really wanted to when i was a kid and i still do
I started with épée, added sabre. I've fenced foil before, the thing's a toy. Hell, the guard is smaller than a DVD, it's whippy and flimsy, the target area is unrealistic... No. Just no.
This is absolute BS...I know plenty of Olympians who've never touched anything but epee. I myself find "right of way" annoying. And no offense to any saber fencers, but I think saber looks too sloppy...
@FakespeareAndCo Plenty of Olympians? I think you are lying, period. Regardless of who you know, your statements reveal a lack of real fencing exposure and appreciation. How many of those Olympians are European? Never touched a foil? I doubt that. It's where you learn fingertip control best. Saber is much harder than it used to be. Your disgust with saber is caused by your narrow focus in epee only.
It basically comes down to talent. Like being a better infielder than an outfielder in baseball. I did foil for ten years and was ranked a "C" for the longest time. I never really liked foil. Once I picked up an epee I was beating "A" fencers left and right because it was just better for me - don't even bring up sabre, that was ridiculous altogether.
@mosihasteen Some people are more physically suited for one weapon or another, that can be true, but looking down on saber is not valid anymore. Saber has improved a lot and become far more difficult, more difficult than foil.
@mosihasteen I was a foil fencer on the national circuit in the 80s and have teaching credentials. It has changed a lot, that is true. I used to look down on like most. Everyone's entitled to one, but I have what is called "a qualified opinion." Do you want to talk about fencing, about the nature of opinions, or do you just want to argue?
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Fuck that. I started fencing last year, and started off with epee. Despite me never practicing any other weapon I still rape everybody in my club in their own weapon. Including the coaches.
@hpufo lol yeah i did that when i took judo. I was owning people left and right. then i enter few tournament and own everyone until i got to black belt. then i face people who knew more than me. so i got my butt kicked by black belt they know a lot of lil tricks. now im good all around. the thing i realized during those year is this. there are those who do a sport for fun, some to keep in shape, and very few because they love it and want to hurt people with it. I like to hurt people
Yea I agree. I find fencing sabre boring, and foil is not quite as exciting. I swear epee moves are the best. I fenced a foilist last week in foil, and I beat him 5-1. And that was my 2nd time ever fencing foil. One thing I have noticed is that other weapons fencers tend to have no sense of boundary.
@hpufo A more experienced epee fencer will likely beat a less experienced foil fencer. Ever notice that when you get rated in one weapon they give you two classifications lower in the other weapons? Never got that far yet? Not surprised.
I hear a lot of people saying that you shouldn't start out with Epee. If you are trained properly though, it shouldn't matter. I'm on the University of Florida fencing team (I'm still a newbie though, since it's only my second semester fencing), and I know a lot of people who started out with Epee and are doing quite well.
@Clunk569 ur in the UF fencing team? do other universities in florida do fencing? i kno UCF does. im a high school junior in Orlando whose high school has just started a fencing team and i want to continue in college T_T
@madog177 of course it can break but its kind of hard if the weapon is old it is much easier to break unless you are a spaz and are trying to hurt the other person... itis rare to break blade though
@madog177 Since 1983, the FIE requires blades to be made of a very springy steel. They don't break easily. Before that, they did all the time. Most fencers never got hurt, because we are aware of our blades enough to prevent it. But in1983, three blades broke in World Champs, two caused bad injuries and one, in foil, caused instant death, pierce through the eye by a broken blade that penetrated a mask - Smirnoff vs. Behr. S dead Caused a big shakeup and equipment improvements.
@JakeSaevitzon The point of using a French grip in the beginning is to learn point control via the fingers. If you skip that and go to a Visconti or other ortho grip, you miss that development. That is the ONLY reason for beginning with French handle. Those who start with the old Italian handles "classical fencers," miss this too.
@JakeSaevitzon I wasn't arguing with you, just elaborating FOR you. It seems that too many people are ready to "fly off the handle." Which is what will happen if she tried to fence holding it like that. Pun intended. Laugh a little.
@sniperdude911 Okay, but if you never did foil, how do you know you got just as much in the way of point control. Foil requires different and much more angular work and recovery.
I think if you are just learning a new sport, it doesn't matter which weapon you choose, and some people don't have a choice. I believe what this person is saying about Fencing in general is true, but everyone is different and has limitations. Some clubs are only one weapon, or don't have proper training in some weapons.
@Quillons1 But in a test, the modern fencer will likely prevail. Look up Aldo Nadi, Italian and World champion, who dueled with a duelist sports writer who insulted him. Nadi won.
@deaddoc That is your opinion. I am WELL aware of Nadi's story as well as his brother (who was actually the better fencer of the two). You're comparing apples to oranges. Nadi dueled with a sharp SPORTS epee. If you want to compare weapon speeds, hefts, handling, technique, etc, I'm happy to entertain that. Just make sure you're making proper comparison. I can tell you from personal experience that modern fencing is not in any way superior in technique. If you employ modern technique to...
@Quillons1 Read some of my other posts. I completely disagree and have plenty of experience of my own. You obviously only did one and not the other. I easily made meat of "period" fencers or "classical" or whatever and I was first a solid competitive foil fencer. Nadi's opponent used the same weapon as he did. Modern fencers have to master the basics, what you call classic in order to do what you see in competition. You really are reaching all around.
@Quillons1 Oh yeah, that is why his brother was the world champion and all. You are typical of your type, full of talk and circular argument. A modern fencer is far more trained, prepared, and adaptable then the usual pot bellied, traditionalist who spends more time arguing touches than fencing.
@deaddoc You just summed up in 3 posts exactly why your wit is as dull as your ridiculous "practice" weapons. I dismiss you as a fraud and an imposter with NO education in this science whatsoever. There is no need to continue our dialouge as clearly you can't handle differing opinions, even when they are more educated and well-informed than your own. Bury your head in the sand and keep playing with your silly sport. Dickhead. I've never spoken to a more disillusioned fencer than yourself.
@Quillons1 You shouldn't use words you don't understand. And you now must call names because you have no real rebuttal to offer. I accomplished plenty in my long fencing career and made mincemeat of people like you whenever I played at it. You will get nowhere and just argue away your life trying to prove you just hit someone and your little sword world is so important. I walked all over it. and I was one of the inventors of it - was doing it in 1983.
@deaddoc okay, what you just said had no significance to my statement whatsoever, i said she is holding it wrong, and it makes her look bad if she doesnt know how to hold a french grip correctly, even if she held it in a beginning set up. While yes you should learn on a french, and yes it is to teach point control, she holds it wrong the entire time. that is all i meant and i do not wish to argue over what i meant.
@JakeSaevitzon She's just displaying the weapon, not effecting an on guard. How would you hold it if you wanted the viewer to see the whole weapon? Way to committed to criticizing.
@Quillons1 I have a antique sword collection you would drool over. And a library full of books on the subject, rare ones too. I have an autographed photos of Georges Santelli, Hans Halberstadt, and Ralph Falkner. Way beyond your imagining.
Too bad you didn't find my posts about the tragic death in 1983 at the World Championships. The best foil fencer in the world was instantly killed when a blade broke and pierced his mask. Point is that little light weapon can be lethal.
@deaddoc period technique, modern sporting technique will fall short every time. That is to say all other things being equal. Modern fencing is only concerned with hitting first to score a touch. Very little emphasis is put on defense at all. The ridiculous "right of way" rule in foil and sabre only mocks true defense. Watch Olympic epeeists and see how little they conern themselves with actually effecting parries.
@Quillons1 Again, you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have an eye to discern the action and you don't know personally what you must master to do what they are doing. You assume a great deal from your "personal" experience. Mine showed me the opposite. Modern technique requires the fencer to adapt to his opponent, which is what I did when I fencing people like you and it was easy to beat them. BS is a big problem you classical and such have.
why is eveyone getting so worked up and obnoxious over this, its just a video of somone giving shockingly bad advice, its kinda funny.
why is there a need to make some rather nasty generalisation about poeple who fence certain weapons and start chatting about stuff they kinda dont seem to know much about....if you hate epee so much, dudes dont watch the video!
I dont thing one weapon deserves any more respect than another! each weapon is like different sport entirely and to be skilled at any deserves a huge respect.
Id royaly suck at sabre, but i could beat top class sabreur at epee
i never objected to people discussing fencing, just the way some of the comments are really rather nasty and not about fencing at all, what does making derogatory comments abou the charecters of those who fight certain weapons have to do with fencing. its unneccecery
@TheFencingPanda Correction, if I may, all three weapons are different aspects of the same sport. But the "sport" represents the only Western Martial art. So-called "classical" fencing is merely modern fencing stuck in time.
I started in foil, competed in it for nearly two decades and then went into the other two. All valid, but together a fuller experience of the Western Sword. Moreover, this led me to theatrical fencing and I read much history as a result, wonderful.
i feel kind of bad now...i take a fencing class and the first thing they taught and are still teaching us is epee. and they're supposedly pro... should i say anything to them about it and how we should of started with foil... i'm a little worried that i won't be able to switch over.
What?! STARTING with epee? That's insane! Okay, maybe if you are 6'-6 with bad knees, it isn't worth the effort to learn foil. But, this should be an exception, not the "rule".
I started (and only fence) with epee. I've been fencing for a year and a half and last saturday, beat 4 ppl who are in university and have been fencing since they were like nine. I'm 5'1" and have great knees.
Fencing was preparation for dueling to the death. Obviously, your FIRST priority was to protect yourself. Two fools thrusting rapiers into each other at the same moment meant that both DIED, NOT that both won!
Unless dueling only for first blood, tickling at each other for elbow, shin, or toe hits would have been patently FOOLISH. It's VITALS, FOIL target.
The weapon most like a rapier is tied to rules least like duels. Foil has a 500g force, needed for blood, epee 750g needed to kill.
O PUH-LEEZ. Try moving around on your feet after ts been stabbed clean through, see how easliy you move around. And try holding your blade as effectively when your middle knuckle is punctured shattered. But you know those are just in Epee, not in foil. And am not a fool thrusting a rapier hoping to get point by chance. I am a fencer who plans strategy and doesn't need to rush in to somethign to get my point, like priority rules force you to.
Lol! There would be no need for a duelist to "move around on his feet after its been stabbed clean through". The duelist who targeted a foot would be already killed by the one who didn't!
What conceit! Do you really believe that epee fencers, skilled ONLY in epee, would survive a death duel against a duelist equally skilled only in foil?
I would like to see a new form of fencing, a step back toward dueling, with foil target, right of way, epee weapon... and no strip! Let's call it Foil+.
the Classical Fencing Society in the midwest teaches "Smarra" a type of heavy Epee from 19th century Italy which has right-of-way. You might track them down...
@BeauEvil I did something much like that in the 1980s on with the first groups of rapier and dagger fencing. We used epee blades with a point and rapier cutting edges implied, and a dagger, no strip. I was well trained in foil and won over all styles that came, and they came from everywhere. I mostly used lots of flying parries and circle takes, plus just solid straight attacks. Hardly used my dagger at all. My experience was that epee fencers fared worst.
@vitaminB100 I my day, I would sometimes see top epee fencers try to hit a foot, and sometimes succeeding by laying nearly the entire weapon flat on the floor and slide the point along the slick floor of the gym to hit a toe on the front. How realistic is that? In a real duel, no one would try to hit a toe, just a dumb idea.
@vitaminB100 Not just one. And I have seen it tried recently too. The point is that going for a toe shot is not realistic because the chance of being hit in a vital region, head or thorax is very likely.
@vitaminB100 I did mostly foil, but went to epee and even some saber later on. The experience of all three weapons really rounds out the sword experience. It is true that if you do only epee from the start and don't learn the others,especially you will not be able to understand the value and need of "priority" in required defense, your myopathy is showing. One famous maestro used to use a real 19th century dueling sword to teach the need of right of way, by practical means.
BeauEvil said: "Two fools thrusting into each other at the same moment meant that both DIED, NOT that both won!"
Your logic might make sense if it was rare to see two lights in foil. It's not.
As it is, in foil, when both lights come on it means that, magically, only one "duellist" is wounded. Either because of the hilarious right-of-way rules, or because, just like in a real duel, that sword tip that just nailed you right between the eyes, is "off target", so it didn't *really* wound you.
@vitaminB100 You don't know much it seems. It is not a judge, but a director, and now called a referee. But they must be certified and tested. Protests can be made and sometimes they are. But the system keeps things honest enough to allow the best fencers to prevail. BeauEvil is right, a double wound is not a win. That is why touches used to be counted against and not for. They changed it because it was thought the dumb public would get it better. Bad idea.
@deaddoc that's exactly what i'm saying. In foil and sabre, one guy wins although both hit withihn time? It makes no sense. in epe, both effectively die.
@vitaminB100 In actual practice and even in duels, both don't usually die from one hit. A double to the legs is not lethal. Historically, a duel was either to the first blood, or to the death, depending on priority and one party or the other claiming satisfaction or not. If you look up Aldo Nadi's 20th century duel with a duelist sports writer in Italy, you will note that he had hit him several times before he gave up, and had been hit on his forearm when he had made his first.
@vitaminB100 Cont; So in the modern game, if both make hits within 1/20 of a second, both lights go off. No one wins. If that continues to "la belle" or "full count" in baseball lingo, the thing can go on until one alone is hit. That makes a case for the multiple wound duel that went to the death.
@vitaminB100 Your assessment is sort of backwards. The reason for right-of-way rules is to demonstrate that, above all else, one MUST protect and NOT die! Epee, without right-of-way rules, permits an equal outcome for fencers who completely disregard their own safety. So, its EPEE that's less realistic by failing to recognize the importance of defense. If epee-only fencers tried using real, sharp rapiers, the style would immediately change to good, clean parries.
@BeauEvil No priority dixctates that though both hit to kill, one hit in this specific way so he won that point and he lived the other died though both hitto kill and both actually hit. Epee demands an equal outcome. Yeah. BOTH DIE! durr.Epee conditions the need to wear down an opponents EVERYTHING, will, necessary limbs (legs, arms), endurance. Not just hitting to kill. It more sportlike.
Lol! Lots of fun. It reminds me of a cockfight, too fast to remember what happened. I love sabre the most, but have no formal instruction in sabre. To me, it is the most like kids playing with sticks with no skills, just instincts. But, after all, instinct, as much as training, is what kept one alive in the old days.
The most entertaining aspect of youtube is reading the comments from the "super egos." Why are all the self proclaimed experts watching introductory videos?
dthompson7373 3 weeks ago
That is an odd kitchen knife...
mrmemanme 1 month ago
@KissakiSan Again, if you knew what a DEBATE was, you would know that this is not one. Do you run your contests like this, whoever just keeps coming back no matter how empty handed, wins?
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan While I would agree that it has been diminished in modern fencing as well, it still exists in the context of the history of the development of modern fending. Your group looks like a bunch of fantasy faire guys who began to take themselves too seriously. And I am NOT saying that texts don't exist, but some have been found in dubious ways to make dubious historical claims. Modern marines train with pugil sticks, so I'm not sure about "extinct" claims.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan After all your disdainful language regarding Renn Faire based fighting, you are hold up a Renn Faire inspired organization as your credentials? The Association of Renaissance Martial Arts?
I studied that period for years. There is a reason it was superseded. But what you really miss is the progression of history of the duel of honor and the final development of 2nd generation warfare. You and apparently your group miss the cultural reasons for Western martial arts.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan The telling point is not all these organization formed in the past 20 years and getting themselves onto lists. I cannot rate your adjectives since you already have shown a propensity to exaggerate and use hyperbole in commenting. UNESCO doesn't examine petitioners, I checked. Neither is it a sanctioning body for any sport or MA. The telling point is just how many members are involved?
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan I left out that French foil is used to teach finger tip control of the point, something that benefits the fencer no matter where they go next as finger tip expertise improved ANY type of sword work. I used it to my advantage in all sorts of sword contests after 14 years of foil only competition. And as an accomplished equestrian, trained and awarded, the legs are used more than the hands, and it is all about balance, so unicycle comparison is actually right!
deaddoc 6 months ago
@deaddoc The best equestrians can ride without their hands at all. Western riders are famous for being heavy handed. The equestrian saddle is used for what is called "close contact" riding found in Euro Dressage, jumping, and hunt riding, which is also derived from military use. Dressage is French and means "training." I was last doing mounted saber drilling on my horse in the mid 1990s.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan So? This is an unneeded reply. It says nothing to me that I don't know already or the details that make bigger points of discussion, like the fact that the 14th battle sword was designed to pierce chain mail and get around plate mail.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Saw an episode of the new series "Ultimate Warrior." A bit nerdy, mixing distant individuals, but the best and most accurate was Napoleon vs George Washington. Washington's small sword derived blade beat Napoleon's Egyptian based saber. Point was proven superior.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan They must be from a very weak division. No one in a strong division can qualify in all three weapons. Getting into nationals from a weak division does not prove anything. Where was this place? Everyone knows that you must focus on a specific weapon to get anywhere. You again expose your lack of knowledge and experience. Perhaps you are lying just to save face.
I said; NO real master recommends starting on anything but French foil. I will not repeat the reasons.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Funny, you insulted me first, and you don't even recognize it, it seems. You got personal first. You are so desperate that you fell to denigrating the small sword in a very transparent way. As for debate, you don't know the meaning of it. A debate is judged by others. this is an argument. If you were honorable to begin with, you would have admitted your error and not insulted me. You will reply because you are basically a brat.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan You are not saying anything here. You were wrong in defending saber as a good way to start fencing and could not admit it, after I presented a tight explanation of why it was wrong and must go on expanding, looking for places to claim a victory. This is exactly the sort of person who does fantasy sword like "RMA." Only you guys are worse for the extent of your fraud and lies.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan This shows your inability to present a logical argument. Since fencing existed for centuries, neither "RMA" or what goes on at Renn Faires could do anything but borrow from it. You have retrograde thought patterns, which is how "RMA" was formed, by putting together what was desired from what already existed. You're an exposed and well understood fraud everywhere.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan I have known about the fake history you guys created to form your little niche of nerdiness. My guess is that Hand saw fellow countryman Mel in Hamlet and liked the fencing that fellow Aussie and great fight director William Hobbs and decided to model a form after it. BTW; I've done some fight directing too.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Because even though this has gone on FAR TOO LONG, I am not going to write down every bit of my experience and knowledge, it would take too long. 500 characters. You go off topic so often like you do here. RMA are the biggest buffoons of all, because they are dishonest about the entire foundation. Oh yeah, The Da Vinci Code of martial arts, cyphers and conspiracies by modern fencing and all. What junk. You were wrong on the first point and had to go on.
deaddoc 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@KissakiSan You can dish it out, but you can't take it, or even recognize it, eh?
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan I checked the UNESCO site. They don't vet applicants. All you need do is apply and that is what happened. Getting on a list is NOT world recognition as a valid, historical martial art. You are just pretending that it does.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan This reminds me; Until recently, Fencing was recognized as THE only Western martial art. Since the advent of Stephan Hand and co., the notion of this has been pushed for promoting his own claimed revival of earlier forms as distinct or somehow unique. He acted inductively, going out looking for material to support his aim. None of his sources have been accredited as authentic. Again, no one cares if you made up a little assoc. To claim world recognition - a lie
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan You didn't know who they are, and would have to look them up to find out.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Kung Fu is based on much hype and less reality. Tricks with bricks and sticks does not an Olympic sport make. If they let in every claim to legitimacy then even your bogus association and claims would be included in the Olympics. UNESCO allows any application, especially these days, due to politics. I have an associate who is on the USOC, and this is well known. Hand and your groups has been working to legitimize itself through this, but no one cares.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Doesn't change what I was saying. The associations you list are new and constructed by its promoters, like Hand, who have financial interests. I know all about it. And it was YOU who said that you did Renn Faires and got people going by taking shortcuts, which is how this discussion got started. I said, there are no shortcuts to mastery. This was why you said your fencing teacher justified saber. Still incorrect. And "effective" is AS WHAT?
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan This entire "conversation" occurred because you claimed that saber was a fine place to begin instruction in MF. Nothing you have said has defended that. You said that it got people "up" quickest and I said that shortcuts create bad habits, even in fantasy sword work, which is what your form is since it is known to be based on likely forged documents and led by discredited, non-objective people. You're acting in a small world that leads no where.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan 10. The New York Fencers Club, founded in 1883, is the oldest continuous running club devoted exclusively to fencing in the U.S. made by Georgio Santelli, New York fencing instructor and equipment manufacturer. Most recently, movie star Jerry O'Connell - saber.
10. The New York Fencers Club, founded in 1883, is the oldest continuous running club devoted exclusively to fencing in the U.S.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan 9. Famous Fencers: Bruce Dickinson, the lead singer of Iron maiden - foil. Neil Diamond, entertainer - sabre. Prince Albert of Monaco - sabre. Andrew Jackson fought a duel of honor with swords. General George Patton, competed in fencing in the 1912 Olympics and once owned a riding crop with a blade in the handle made by Georgio Santelli, New York fencing instructor and equipment manufacturer.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan 7. There was originally no time limit on a fencing bout, until a Masters Championship bout in New York in the 1930s lasted for seven hours. Thereafter, bouts were limited to 30 minutes. Today, the time-limit has been reduced to just 3 minutes for 5-touch bouts and 9 minutes for 15 touches.
8. Fencers wear white uniforms because before the advent of electronic scoring, touches were recorded on the white surface with a wad of ink-soaked cotton on the tips of the weapons.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan 5. The 750 gram weight test used to ensure a touch is scored with sufficient force is based on the amount of tension required to break the skin. In a duel, honor was done when blood was first drawn -- even if from a minor wound such as a blister.
6. The target area in sabre, originally a cavalry weapon, is from the waist up because it is contrary to the rules of chivalry to injure an opponent's horse.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan 4. Fencing is conducted on a 14m x 2m "strip" or "piste" to replicate combat in confined quarters such as a castle hallway. The end of the fencing strip represents the line drawn in the earth by duelists' seconds: to retreat behind this line during the duel indicated cowardice and loss of honor.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Fencing Facts
1. Fencing is one of only four sports to be included in every modern Olympic Games, since the first in 1896. Fencing was also a sport in the original Olympic Games in ancient Greece.
2. Baron Pierre de Coubertin, the father of the modern Olympic Games, was a fencer.
3. The tip of the fencing weapon is the second fastest moving object in sport; the first is the marksman's bullet.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan If you are using the modern on guard, then you are not period, wherever you think you are. Yes, people tried different things, but the general rule is not the modern guard for pre 17 c fighting. I know about the claims of Stephan Hand. He is known to be a forger and a very unpleasant person as are most of his followers from my own and others experience. Just look at his book reviews on Amazon.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Modern saber IS from mounted battlefield use. The reason upper body is foul is because it was considered a disgrace to strike horse. There was an ongoing debate over the straight or curved weapon, but as cavalry was intended as a shock force, people like Patton argued that the straight saber was superior. Curved is for infantry, but it is risky to spend much time there. The last models of British, French, and American sabers were straight, point intended weapons.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan You are incorrect, as my posted USFA historical list shows. Saber is from mounted cavalry saber. Foil and epee ARE from the chivalric duel of honor, not a melee, as in battlefield. The small sword was for dueling and did develop in the 18 c, HOWEVER you are wrong about battlefield absence. In the 18c and Napoleonic Wars, officers would use them against one another when met - no one interfered. That was 2nd Generation War style and the chivalric model. at its height.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan I wondered when you were going to bring up those highly debatable and likely fraudulent documents that people like Stephan Hand have promoted as factual. But for every period of fencing that you can set yourself into, there was a reason for discarding in WITHIN the realm of sword and fighting logic, not outside issues like the advent of gunpowder. Your little RMA world is bogus and the far majority out there in the relative world knows it.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Your history is skewed and based on incorrect stereotypes. Early firearms were horribly inaccurate. The longer light swords that arrived in the late medieval period got through armor crevices and rendered heavy armor obsolete first. Wong on fencing history too. The tradition of fencing that led to the latest model is a continuous evolution since the Greeks. I will post some data from the USFA website here for you to deny.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan I was involved with it right up through the 90s. I have far more experience in viewing the evolution that you do by your own admittance here. Light years? LOL There is still a large fantasy core to what is being done, it is plain from youtube videos. The fantasy element is greater than ever and not "light years" ahead of anything.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan No it isn't, and anyone who watches saber match today will see the point being used often.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan And finally, You obviously haven't learned enough to know that the modern en garde position was developed in order to present less target and allow better and longer reach. It evolved from practical experience and trials in real duels. Moreover, as a DC who also had a long and accomplished fencing career, (whether you acknowledge it or not) I know that mastering the en guarde correctly will prevent orthopedic injuries and other biomechanical problems. U R unqualified.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan C4; The three modern weapons are descended and evolved from the final Western school of the martial art of fencing. These Faire forms you hold out, have no pedigree, were fabricated by fantasy faire reenactors. The best of them are still bastardized forms of play. There is not national or world recognized contests or ranking systems, and certainly no Olympic tradition behind them. They aren't comparable. But a well trained foilist can adapt to any of them quickly.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Cont3; They may write a book on it, but it is inductively arrived at' That is, the form is established and then justification for it is sought and made mailable by desire. Fencing is a modern Olympic sport that has a pedigree going back at least 2 thou years, earlier to Greece. It is evolved from the chivalric duel. The notion of sportsmanship came from fencing and dueling. To wit, the father of the modern Olympics was Baron Pierre de Coubertin. He was a fencer. C4;
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Cont2; 2. Schools and colleges are lax in applying that rule in America because they want to fill classes and typically don't understand the need to start with foil. 3. I was one of the originators of the trend of various sword forms arriving at Renn Faires. I was doing in the late 70s and 80s at the original CA faires. They have existed for no more than 30 years or so. They are largely constructed from fantasy and then given some hx justification of a sort. Cont3
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan You've made NO point here, and you're just looking for ways to insult me. I have presented a tight argument and you will not admit it. You might wonder how I might have acquired such rare items. So here is a quick recap; 1. Foil is the pivot weapon and is the best to begin with, ALL real masters know that. There are occasional renegades but that is the long standing rule of thumb. Easy to confirm that,just look. Cont2;
deaddoc 6 months ago
Longswords anyone! :D
Wikingersohn93 6 months ago
@KissakiSan The two I mentioned were important fencers from Europe who came to the US. Both had fought duels as well. Chuck Norris is not a fencer. The two I mentioned have been deceased for a long time. The fact that you don't know who they are is some amount of proof that you don't know fencing enough to discuss it as thoroughly as you pretend. You case is not solid. You have no rebuttal to what I said, so you try to counter with modern autographs.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan I also have signed photographs of Georges Santelli, Hans Halberstadt, and Ralph Faulkner. IF you don't know who they are, you don't know much about 20th century dueling and fencing - the real stuff.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Finally, the reason you don't get the sense of what I and every real teacher of fending knows about foil first rule is that you mix things up so much you have no real specific knowledge. I spent a good decade in foil competition before I went to rapier and dagger experiments at the oldest Renn Faire in the US. I was so successful because of that. You are all mixed up. I have a parlor wall full of medals from AFLA/USFA competitions as well as awards from Faires.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan People have made up these styles, using historical texts to justify jumping into conclusions for their game, that is even less accurate than modern fencing. That is why a trained modern fencer can adapt quicker and win against people doing these fantasy game fencing. Fencing is derived, evolved from a real combat style that evolved itself and has a real place in history. The problem is that modern fencing is forgetting that in the US.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan I know all about the short cuts people created in these fantasy sword faire, SCA styles. There is no short cut to skill. What you get are people who don't want to spend the time or have the discipline for acquiring real skill and knowledge. That is why I always best these people at their own games. 1. I was a skilled in foil, 2. I was one of the inventors of rapier-dagger fencing at faires, as I said earlier.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Got you there. I was one of the first people to do rapier dagger fencing at Faires in the early 1980s. I won most contests due to my long time national level foil experience. I saw all these fantasy schools you mention come into being. I have a large library on ancient, medieval and later sword history as well as having been a fight director. Modern en guard evolved as the most efficient. Doesn't change what I was saying.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan Again you make illogical comparisons. If you had done foil, you would be able to answer your own question. Foil teaches the student right of way, and a parry system that is easily adapted to saber. The Fench handle prepares the student for the saber handle, and the evasive moves in foil are not that dissimilar from saber. That with advantages for epee present as well. That is why foil is the pivotal weapon and learning with it 1st makes a better fencer overall.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@deaddoc And KissakiSan, I used to also train equestrian and won ribbons in hunt-jump. I also raced motorcycles successfully as a teen and young adult before fencing. So I know how logical your comparison is.... not at all. It really seems that you are the one trying to cling to something emotionally not logically. That won't help you as a fencer, either.
deaddoc 6 months ago
There is absolutely nothing wrong with what she is saying. And how would anyone hold a weapon while displaying it broadside to a camera?
deaddoc 6 months ago
@KissakiSan I have to address this "ask any martial artist" point as well. I am a sports chiropractor as well as a one time national level fencer. Eastern Martial artists are not the basis of drawing a scientific recognition of biomechanics and neurophysiology in sports. Natural movements beyond running all have to be retrained to learn any skill sport. Fencing requires very unnatural training and bad habits are easy to retain. In the end, I did all three weapons, and more.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@KissakiSan My experience with many college level coaches is that they let students use whatever weapon they are attracted to and it is also universally known that people are more easily seduced by saber because of its use in films, and its more crude general application in blade swinging. Also, college teachers need students, so they are lax. Go to a real fencing academy in Europe and you will find I am being perfectly factual.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@KissakiSan Any real fencing master will tell you that fencing is NOT a natural thing in any way. In fact, it is all about mastering natural reactions. The on guard position is highly unnatural, which it why it is so hard to learn. I trained with the best American masters of my day, which included more than one foreign defector. Everyone knows this stuff. I am also a sports chiropractor who worked on Olympic athletes. You are mistaken about movement habits and reflexes, too
deaddoc 7 months ago
@KissakiSan Not at all. I actually perceived from the start that I was a natural saber fencer so I stuck to foil to master the more difficult and universally accepted rule that foil is the pivot weapon, having both saber and epee styles within it. Someone who starts and only does saber or epee can be good in it, but they will find it hard when ; a saber fencer tries to fence epee or visa versa. You are tying to make it personal, a matter of prejudice.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@KissakiSan Hmmm, that is not the long agreed upon rule of thumb. I think your coach just liked saber. Any world class coach will tell you that foil is the weapon to learn on. It is the pivot weapon. Saber is to be avoided just because it is too natural to swat, as you found. That encourages bad habits. The dexterity required for foil trains in the subtlety that will serve both saber and epee later.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@KissakiSan yea it really is
dre8290 7 months ago
WELL KENDO RULES!!!!!!
dre8290 8 months ago
I am afraid that I'm going to disagree with the video. As a fencer who has done both foil and epee competitively, I can say that Epee is just as good as a starting weapon as any other. I am one of the best fencers in my club and I frequently beat other fencers who began with foil (both in foil and in epee). My intention is not to start a "flame war" simply to point out that the I disagree with the woman in her opinion that foil is the optimum weapon for beginners. All weapons are viable.
NilsxSin 8 months ago
@NilsxSin Without flaming. I must disagree with you. If you are beating foilsts, they will be less experienced in general. But any real fencing academy (in Europe) will tell you that foil has aspects of both saber and epee in and is the best place for the student to begin. Basing your views on your personal experienc in your region is a mistake. Listen to the real experts. (Not me, but Olympic level trainers or European academy masters).
deaddoc 7 months ago
Bullshit, Epee is the best, foil is much harder, you got less defense and much less places to hit - She is an idiot never listen to her! She doesn`t know how to fence at all!
akithesniper 8 months ago
@akithesniper That's right, foil is harder, so it requires more skill and refinement, which is easily transferred to epee and saber. She is right, listen to any real master as I have posted to several comments here. Also, your communication style is rotten. You will get nowhere in fencing or the world like that.
deaddoc 7 months ago
holy shit 139k vids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
asklzxnmqwop 8 months ago
Even if your an A rated fencer, if you don't have respect for all three weapons, that means you still have a lot more to learn.
bigbearjb4 9 months ago 5
@bigbearjb4 ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. After years of competing in foil, I began to fence the two others and I feel I got a real full "sword" experience from it. I made my real achievements in foil, but had to much fun and learned so much of the "spirit of the sword" and the Western culture of it, by spreading out. It got me into theatrical fight directing a little and a lot of study of history too.
deaddoc 7 months ago
Sabre sounds as though it would be the more practical choice to learn if you ask me. Why then does it sound so unpopular?
clonedelta22 9 months ago
@clonedelta22 There is really no more practical weapon in fencing. If any had to be, it would be foil I think because historically it was the training weapon for dueling. You have to learn to make a vital hit in foil. Epee is the last model dueling sword, but if you hit in the thigh, the other guy is hitting you in the gut. Saber has had a lot of problems over the years. It was hard to electrify it, and before that, too many "reputation touches" occurred. Cont2;
deaddoc 7 months ago
@deaddoc Cont2; The problem with electric saber is that the blade will score with any blade contact of any pressure, so a non-cutting flat side blade lay on will cause a score to be registered. The other is that the equipment is very expensive compared to the other two. Having said that, electrified saber along with the new rules improved it and it is much more difficult than it used to be. I always enjoyed saber, but it is NOT the weapon to start with.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@deaddoc Cont3; FYI Sir Richard Burton (19th century explorer, writer), proved that the point of a sword is more deadly than the edge two ways; 1. the point travels a shorter distance to the target when it is thrust straight as it is supposed to be, where the edge weapon requires a wide arching sweep to cut. 2. A pierce is medically more deadly than a cut in general. Watch some modern saber fencing, they use the point a great deal. Look the 1977 film "The Duelists."
deaddoc 7 months ago
without points,face to face you wont give they wont give you cant go forward they they wont let you any ways nether of you want to push to hard,aţ the right moment throw im off guard balance commando!lol
humgum44 10 months ago
Foil's great for basics but anyone that has been touched on the wrist while passing through the gate knows that epee is a completely different ball game.
lowlounger 11 months ago
@lowlounger Yes, epee is a game of caution, waiting for the other to make an error in movement or target exposure. Foil and saber require defensive moves so they are more aggressive due to having to deceive the defense. That is done with feints, disengages, blade movement, complex footwork, etc. But a lazy epee fencer won't win either. Foil was historically the training weapon for dueling and epee is the duel. But rather live with a wrist bleeding than die with a gut pierced.
deaddoc 7 months ago
No good fencer ever takes expert village seriously. Why do they even still have videos out?
PoeticChaosx 1 year ago
Why no love for sabre? Don't we all love a little drama?
Airhead4321 1 year ago
I remember my coach said I was good with both foil and epee we never used sabre at the academy. Unless you signed up for longer we only used the two I mention. I love fencing.
RuckalltheFules 1 year ago
that's one rusty-ass blade
isomikieee 1 year ago
I started as a foilist and recently went into epee and it is so hard to remeber that you can hit the whole bdy
Trinibadman96 1 year ago
@Trinibadman96 Just think of it as all your previous fouls being good and hit the switch in your brain. It is quite possible to go from being a good long time foil fencer to a good epee fencer. Many of the fencers in my former national level club were class A in both.
deaddoc 6 months ago
i wish i could fence with some one it looks really fun. does any one know where i could fence for fun or something i never fenced in my life but i really wanted to when i was a kid and i still do
buffering159 1 year ago
wierd...... my name is amy Boyle too
AmyBoyle789 1 year ago
saber ftw!!! xD
fountoukiotis 1 year ago
I started with épée, added sabre. I've fenced foil before, the thing's a toy. Hell, the guard is smaller than a DVD, it's whippy and flimsy, the target area is unrealistic... No. Just no.
B3llit0 1 year ago
This is absolute BS...I know plenty of Olympians who've never touched anything but epee. I myself find "right of way" annoying. And no offense to any saber fencers, but I think saber looks too sloppy...
FakespeareAndCo 1 year ago
@FakespeareAndCo Plenty of Olympians? I think you are lying, period. Regardless of who you know, your statements reveal a lack of real fencing exposure and appreciation. How many of those Olympians are European? Never touched a foil? I doubt that. It's where you learn fingertip control best. Saber is much harder than it used to be. Your disgust with saber is caused by your narrow focus in epee only.
deaddoc 7 months ago
I started with epee and I'm really good at it
DexterEvilGenius 1 year ago
For the first three seconds, she stares at us. Into our souls. Forever. ...Creepy.
lentilofhope 1 year ago
try using a Japanese Katana then........just kidding.
BuddhaZenMind 1 year ago
Comment removed
deaddoc 7 months ago
It basically comes down to talent. Like being a better infielder than an outfielder in baseball. I did foil for ten years and was ranked a "C" for the longest time. I never really liked foil. Once I picked up an epee I was beating "A" fencers left and right because it was just better for me - don't even bring up sabre, that was ridiculous altogether.
mosihasteen 1 year ago 2
@mosihasteen Some people are more physically suited for one weapon or another, that can be true, but looking down on saber is not valid anymore. Saber has improved a lot and become far more difficult, more difficult than foil.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@deaddoc Sabre is a lot different than I remember in the 90s, but its being more difficult than foil is all opinion and only opinion.
mosihasteen 1 month ago
@mosihasteen I was a foil fencer on the national circuit in the 80s and have teaching credentials. It has changed a lot, that is true. I used to look down on like most. Everyone's entitled to one, but I have what is called "a qualified opinion." Do you want to talk about fencing, about the nature of opinions, or do you just want to argue?
deaddoc 1 month ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Fuck that. I started fencing last year, and started off with epee. Despite me never practicing any other weapon I still rape everybody in my club in their own weapon. Including the coaches.
hpufo 1 year ago
@hpufo lol yeah i did that when i took judo. I was owning people left and right. then i enter few tournament and own everyone until i got to black belt. then i face people who knew more than me. so i got my butt kicked by black belt they know a lot of lil tricks. now im good all around. the thing i realized during those year is this. there are those who do a sport for fun, some to keep in shape, and very few because they love it and want to hurt people with it. I like to hurt people
nasurdan 1 year ago
I started with epee too. For me, there was no use wasting time. Epee is my weapon and I don't desire to fence with anything else.
Elfinesmom 1 year ago
Yea I agree. I find fencing sabre boring, and foil is not quite as exciting. I swear epee moves are the best. I fenced a foilist last week in foil, and I beat him 5-1. And that was my 2nd time ever fencing foil. One thing I have noticed is that other weapons fencers tend to have no sense of boundary.
hpufo 1 year ago
@hpufo A more experienced epee fencer will likely beat a less experienced foil fencer. Ever notice that when you get rated in one weapon they give you two classifications lower in the other weapons? Never got that far yet? Not surprised.
deaddoc 7 months ago
Many people think epee is more simple, because it hasn't conventions, so they think can became good epeeist.
It's wrong, who hasn't a basical technic well'be a bad epeeist.
fellinian 2 years ago
Comment removed
hpufo 2 years ago
i'm doing fencing and i started with flere
NatiCrynor 2 years ago
I hear a lot of people saying that you shouldn't start out with Epee. If you are trained properly though, it shouldn't matter. I'm on the University of Florida fencing team (I'm still a newbie though, since it's only my second semester fencing), and I know a lot of people who started out with Epee and are doing quite well.
Clunk569 2 years ago
@Clunk569 ur in the UF fencing team? do other universities in florida do fencing? i kno UCF does. im a high school junior in Orlando whose high school has just started a fencing team and i want to continue in college T_T
pureindian407 1 year ago
@pureindian407 FSU started one up recently. One of my friends is thinking about joining.
Clunk569 1 year ago
@Clunk569 In epee, not foil or saber.
deaddoc 7 months ago
can tat sowrd break at all cuz it looks a bit flimsy
madog177 2 years ago
@madog177 of course it can break but its kind of hard if the weapon is old it is much easier to break unless you are a spaz and are trying to hurt the other person... itis rare to break blade though
nerdywakeboarder 2 years ago
ahh alright tys
madog177 2 years ago
@madog177 Since 1983, the FIE requires blades to be made of a very springy steel. They don't break easily. Before that, they did all the time. Most fencers never got hurt, because we are aware of our blades enough to prevent it. But in1983, three blades broke in World Champs, two caused bad injuries and one, in foil, caused instant death, pierce through the eye by a broken blade that penetrated a mask - Smirnoff vs. Behr. S dead Caused a big shakeup and equipment improvements.
deaddoc 7 months ago
anyone notice how she was holding the french grip wrong, and atleast use a visconti grip if u dont know how to hold one
JakeSaevitzon 2 years ago
@JakeSaevitzon The point of using a French grip in the beginning is to learn point control via the fingers. If you skip that and go to a Visconti or other ortho grip, you miss that development. That is the ONLY reason for beginning with French handle. Those who start with the old Italian handles "classical fencers," miss this too.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@JakeSaevitzon I wasn't arguing with you, just elaborating FOR you. It seems that too many people are ready to "fly off the handle." Which is what will happen if she tried to fence holding it like that. Pun intended. Laugh a little.
deaddoc 6 months ago
I started with epee but i trained footwork and dicipline just as much as point control and strategies. And im a perfectly capable fencer.
sniperdude911 2 years ago
@sniperdude911 In epee.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@sniperdude911 Okay, but if you never did foil, how do you know you got just as much in the way of point control. Foil requires different and much more angular work and recovery.
deaddoc 6 months ago
Amy Boyle is hot!
liebstandarteadolf 2 years ago
I think if you are just learning a new sport, it doesn't matter which weapon you choose, and some people don't have a choice. I believe what this person is saying about Fencing in general is true, but everyone is different and has limitations. Some clubs are only one weapon, or don't have proper training in some weapons.
Naruto320 2 years ago
Modern fencing is slowly becoming a joke.
toothANDclaw13 2 years ago
Hahahah what is this?!
Starting with the Blade uniform, and ending with the non-FIE blade, I highly doubt the validity of this video.
Anyways, maybe you shouldn't generalize weapons. It is purely up to the fencer as to which weapon they prefer.
ThelisMD 2 years ago 2
I once read that:
Foil is poetry
Sabre is drama
Epee is truth
=]
GMProducer 2 years ago 31
@GMProducer I like this a lot. But I have to say the one I like better is one I read which goes:
"If sport fencing is a conversation in steel, rapier combat is an all out argument"
:-) I do like yours though, I'm going to have to use it.
Quillons1 1 year ago
@Quillons1 But in a test, the modern fencer will likely prevail. Look up Aldo Nadi, Italian and World champion, who dueled with a duelist sports writer who insulted him. Nadi won.
deaddoc 7 months ago
@deaddoc That is your opinion. I am WELL aware of Nadi's story as well as his brother (who was actually the better fencer of the two). You're comparing apples to oranges. Nadi dueled with a sharp SPORTS epee. If you want to compare weapon speeds, hefts, handling, technique, etc, I'm happy to entertain that. Just make sure you're making proper comparison. I can tell you from personal experience that modern fencing is not in any way superior in technique. If you employ modern technique to...
Quillons1 6 months ago
@Quillons1 Read some of my other posts. I completely disagree and have plenty of experience of my own. You obviously only did one and not the other. I easily made meat of "period" fencers or "classical" or whatever and I was first a solid competitive foil fencer. Nadi's opponent used the same weapon as he did. Modern fencers have to master the basics, what you call classic in order to do what you see in competition. You really are reaching all around.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@Quillons1 Oh yeah, that is why his brother was the world champion and all. You are typical of your type, full of talk and circular argument. A modern fencer is far more trained, prepared, and adaptable then the usual pot bellied, traditionalist who spends more time arguing touches than fencing.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@deaddoc You just summed up in 3 posts exactly why your wit is as dull as your ridiculous "practice" weapons. I dismiss you as a fraud and an imposter with NO education in this science whatsoever. There is no need to continue our dialouge as clearly you can't handle differing opinions, even when they are more educated and well-informed than your own. Bury your head in the sand and keep playing with your silly sport. Dickhead. I've never spoken to a more disillusioned fencer than yourself.
Quillons1 6 months ago
@Quillons1 You shouldn't use words you don't understand. And you now must call names because you have no real rebuttal to offer. I accomplished plenty in my long fencing career and made mincemeat of people like you whenever I played at it. You will get nowhere and just argue away your life trying to prove you just hit someone and your little sword world is so important. I walked all over it. and I was one of the inventors of it - was doing it in 1983.
deaddoc 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Quillons1 Run away! Run away!
deaddoc 6 months ago
@deaddoc okay, what you just said had no significance to my statement whatsoever, i said she is holding it wrong, and it makes her look bad if she doesnt know how to hold a french grip correctly, even if she held it in a beginning set up. While yes you should learn on a french, and yes it is to teach point control, she holds it wrong the entire time. that is all i meant and i do not wish to argue over what i meant.
JakeSaevitzon 6 months ago
@JakeSaevitzon She's just displaying the weapon, not effecting an on guard. How would you hold it if you wanted the viewer to see the whole weapon? Way to committed to criticizing.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@deaddoc perhaps u are right, i would just hold it correctly
JakeSaevitzon 6 months ago
@Quillons1 I have a antique sword collection you would drool over. And a library full of books on the subject, rare ones too. I have an autographed photos of Georges Santelli, Hans Halberstadt, and Ralph Falkner. Way beyond your imagining.
Too bad you didn't find my posts about the tragic death in 1983 at the World Championships. The best foil fencer in the world was instantly killed when a blade broke and pierced his mask. Point is that little light weapon can be lethal.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@deaddoc period technique, modern sporting technique will fall short every time. That is to say all other things being equal. Modern fencing is only concerned with hitting first to score a touch. Very little emphasis is put on defense at all. The ridiculous "right of way" rule in foil and sabre only mocks true defense. Watch Olympic epeeists and see how little they conern themselves with actually effecting parries.
Quillons1 6 months ago
@Quillons1 Again, you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have an eye to discern the action and you don't know personally what you must master to do what they are doing. You assume a great deal from your "personal" experience. Mine showed me the opposite. Modern technique requires the fencer to adapt to his opponent, which is what I did when I fencing people like you and it was easy to beat them. BS is a big problem you classical and such have.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@GMProducer That's wonderful, where did you read that?
Airhead4321 1 year ago
@GMProducer thanks for sharing
malevolenceXXXensues 7 months ago
@GMProducer It heard it this way; Foil is for lawyers, epee is for engineers, saber is for actors. I like yours better, though.
deaddoc 7 months ago
why is eveyone getting so worked up and obnoxious over this, its just a video of somone giving shockingly bad advice, its kinda funny.
why is there a need to make some rather nasty generalisation about poeple who fence certain weapons and start chatting about stuff they kinda dont seem to know much about....if you hate epee so much, dudes dont watch the video!
TheFencingPanda 2 years ago
I like epee better than foil, but respect foil more. I like sabre the most, but respect it the least. Why do you object to people discussing fencing?
BeauEvil 2 years ago
I dont thing one weapon deserves any more respect than another! each weapon is like different sport entirely and to be skilled at any deserves a huge respect.
Id royaly suck at sabre, but i could beat top class sabreur at epee
i never objected to people discussing fencing, just the way some of the comments are really rather nasty and not about fencing at all, what does making derogatory comments abou the charecters of those who fight certain weapons have to do with fencing. its unneccecery
TheFencingPanda 2 years ago
@TheFencingPanda Correction, if I may, all three weapons are different aspects of the same sport. But the "sport" represents the only Western Martial art. So-called "classical" fencing is merely modern fencing stuck in time.
I started in foil, competed in it for nearly two decades and then went into the other two. All valid, but together a fuller experience of the Western Sword. Moreover, this led me to theatrical fencing and I read much history as a result, wonderful.
deaddoc 6 months ago
ohmigoditsl if you've been learning epee the whole time dont switch over, as long as you know your abc's you will be fine.
SoURManDuDE 2 years ago
i feel kind of bad now...i take a fencing class and the first thing they taught and are still teaching us is epee. and they're supposedly pro... should i say anything to them about it and how we should of started with foil... i'm a little worried that i won't be able to switch over.
ohmigoditsL 2 years ago
What?! STARTING with epee? That's insane! Okay, maybe if you are 6'-6 with bad knees, it isn't worth the effort to learn foil. But, this should be an exception, not the "rule".
BeauEvil 2 years ago
It really depends on who is teaching and how. Modern foil is also rather broken because of recent rule changes.
riflepoet 2 years ago
I started (and only fence) with epee. I've been fencing for a year and a half and last saturday, beat 4 ppl who are in university and have been fencing since they were like nine. I'm 5'1" and have great knees.
vitaminB100 2 years ago
If you are "5'1 with great knees", but have only fenced epee, you have no idea how excellent you could be in foil!
BeauEvil 2 years ago
I would have no patience for "right-of-way" rules. Its a judges call, which is obviously biased. Epee has no bullshit to it. A double is a double.
vitaminB100 2 years ago 2
Fencing was preparation for dueling to the death. Obviously, your FIRST priority was to protect yourself. Two fools thrusting rapiers into each other at the same moment meant that both DIED, NOT that both won!
Unless dueling only for first blood, tickling at each other for elbow, shin, or toe hits would have been patently FOOLISH. It's VITALS, FOIL target.
The weapon most like a rapier is tied to rules least like duels. Foil has a 500g force, needed for blood, epee 750g needed to kill.
BeauEvil 2 years ago
O PUH-LEEZ. Try moving around on your feet after ts been stabbed clean through, see how easliy you move around. And try holding your blade as effectively when your middle knuckle is punctured shattered. But you know those are just in Epee, not in foil. And am not a fool thrusting a rapier hoping to get point by chance. I am a fencer who plans strategy and doesn't need to rush in to somethign to get my point, like priority rules force you to.
vitaminB100 2 years ago
Lol! There would be no need for a duelist to "move around on his feet after its been stabbed clean through". The duelist who targeted a foot would be already killed by the one who didn't!
BeauEvil 2 years ago
UNLESS the one who attacks a foot is fast enough and good enough (like epee fencers are) to not allow themsleves to be killed.
vitaminB100 2 years ago
What conceit! Do you really believe that epee fencers, skilled ONLY in epee, would survive a death duel against a duelist equally skilled only in foil?
BeauEvil 2 years ago
Honestly? Yes.
vitaminB100 2 years ago
Well, that's your perogative.
I would like to see a new form of fencing, a step back toward dueling, with foil target, right of way, epee weapon... and no strip! Let's call it Foil+.
BeauEvil 2 years ago
@BeauEvil
Greetings-
the Classical Fencing Society in the midwest teaches "Smarra" a type of heavy Epee from 19th century Italy which has right-of-way. You might track them down...
Cheers
MRRSL3 1 year ago 2
@BeauEvil I did something much like that in the 1980s on with the first groups of rapier and dagger fencing. We used epee blades with a point and rapier cutting edges implied, and a dagger, no strip. I was well trained in foil and won over all styles that came, and they came from everywhere. I mostly used lots of flying parries and circle takes, plus just solid straight attacks. Hardly used my dagger at all. My experience was that epee fencers fared worst.
deaddoc 6 months ago
These are all hilarious to read.
Gundil 2 years ago
@vitaminB100 I my day, I would sometimes see top epee fencers try to hit a foot, and sometimes succeeding by laying nearly the entire weapon flat on the floor and slide the point along the slick floor of the gym to hit a toe on the front. How realistic is that? In a real duel, no one would try to hit a toe, just a dumb idea.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@deaddoc in your day, the fenc er you knew sucked.
vitaminB100 6 months ago
@vitaminB100 Not just one. And I have seen it tried recently too. The point is that going for a toe shot is not realistic because the chance of being hit in a vital region, head or thorax is very likely.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@vitaminB100 I did mostly foil, but went to epee and even some saber later on. The experience of all three weapons really rounds out the sword experience. It is true that if you do only epee from the start and don't learn the others,especially you will not be able to understand the value and need of "priority" in required defense, your myopathy is showing. One famous maestro used to use a real 19th century dueling sword to teach the need of right of way, by practical means.
deaddoc 6 months ago
BeauEvil said: "Two fools thrusting into each other at the same moment meant that both DIED, NOT that both won!"
Your logic might make sense if it was rare to see two lights in foil. It's not.
As it is, in foil, when both lights come on it means that, magically, only one "duellist" is wounded. Either because of the hilarious right-of-way rules, or because, just like in a real duel, that sword tip that just nailed you right between the eyes, is "off target", so it didn't *really* wound you.
rockethearse 2 years ago
@vitaminB100 You don't know much it seems. It is not a judge, but a director, and now called a referee. But they must be certified and tested. Protests can be made and sometimes they are. But the system keeps things honest enough to allow the best fencers to prevail. BeauEvil is right, a double wound is not a win. That is why touches used to be counted against and not for. They changed it because it was thought the dumb public would get it better. Bad idea.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@deaddoc that's exactly what i'm saying. In foil and sabre, one guy wins although both hit withihn time? It makes no sense. in epe, both effectively die.
vitaminB100 6 months ago
@vitaminB100 In actual practice and even in duels, both don't usually die from one hit. A double to the legs is not lethal. Historically, a duel was either to the first blood, or to the death, depending on priority and one party or the other claiming satisfaction or not. If you look up Aldo Nadi's 20th century duel with a duelist sports writer in Italy, you will note that he had hit him several times before he gave up, and had been hit on his forearm when he had made his first.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@vitaminB100 Cont; So in the modern game, if both make hits within 1/20 of a second, both lights go off. No one wins. If that continues to "la belle" or "full count" in baseball lingo, the thing can go on until one alone is hit. That makes a case for the multiple wound duel that went to the death.
deaddoc 6 months ago
@vitaminB100 Your assessment is sort of backwards. The reason for right-of-way rules is to demonstrate that, above all else, one MUST protect and NOT die! Epee, without right-of-way rules, permits an equal outcome for fencers who completely disregard their own safety. So, its EPEE that's less realistic by failing to recognize the importance of defense. If epee-only fencers tried using real, sharp rapiers, the style would immediately change to good, clean parries.
BeauEvil 6 months ago
@BeauEvil No priority dixctates that though both hit to kill, one hit in this specific way so he won that point and he lived the other died though both hitto kill and both actually hit. Epee demands an equal outcome. Yeah. BOTH DIE! durr.Epee conditions the need to wear down an opponents EVERYTHING, will, necessary limbs (legs, arms), endurance. Not just hitting to kill. It more sportlike.
vitaminB100 6 months ago
In my opinion, there's nothing like a good sabre bout
KarlTheStampede 2 years ago
Lol! Lots of fun. It reminds me of a cockfight, too fast to remember what happened. I love sabre the most, but have no formal instruction in sabre. To me, it is the most like kids playing with sticks with no skills, just instincts. But, after all, instinct, as much as training, is what kept one alive in the old days.
BeauEvil 2 years ago