Defensor Fidei - Lesson Eleven: Jesus = Michael the Archangel?!?

[kedmonton]

the new world translation is on no recognized bible verse lookup web sites, for a reason. if jesus christ were to be anyone in the bible, he would be a reincharnate of malchizedek. angels are not gods. there is one god. 1st john 5:7. ur fake bible doesnt have that verse. look it up in the king james

[JAKEV25]

The translators translated Jesus saqying "I AM" to get you to believe the trinity...The blind man in John 9 says "I Am" but that doesn't mean he is God...GuyI can refute every verse you used to defend the false dogma of the trinity.

[SteveSpitz1981]

So so tell me then: why did the Jews in the temple want to kill Jesus for saying such a thing (John 8:59)?

[JAKEV25]

Steve....see the video on my youtube homepage regarding "I AM "

[SteveSpitz1981]

Answer the question.

[JAKEV25]

Jesus being older than Abraham would give him greater authority as a prophet.....the Jews did not like this...Abraham was their prophet...Wach the video.

[SteveSpitz1981]

... And the Jews failed to grasp hold of the concept that He, Jesus, was present with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1-5). The Jews took his words on face value as you are doing.

[JAKEV25]

@SteveSpitz1981 The begining of what? God doesn't have a begining.

[SteveSpitz1981]

I am paraphrasing what is written in John 1:1-5. The author is perhaps referring to the "beginning" from whence man first came to be. Of course God has no beginning; he is eternal; neither does he have and end.

[JAKEV25]

Jesus was created.....

15 He is the image of the unseen God, the first-born of all creation, Col 1:15

[SteveSpitz1981]

... Made INCARNATE, yes, but present with God eternally (John 1:1-5).

Would you be able to tell me why Christ refers to himself as the "Alpha and Omega" in Revelation 22:13 as God did in Revelation 1:8?

[JAKEV25]

@SteveSpitz1981 God and Jesus hold many of the same titles..Lord.Savior, Shepherd, King....it doesn't make them a triune god.

[SteveSpitz1981]

Read John 10:30.

[SteveSpitz1981]

Why use the same titles or go by the same pseudonyms if they are not one in the same? That makes Jesus either of two things: a liar or God incarnate. Are you calling Christ a liar?

[SteveSpitz1981]

The blind man in John 9 was responding to questions of his neighbours who were wondering if this was the same man that was blind (from birth) whom they knew. They did not believe that it was the same man (thinking that it may have been someone like him) so he said to convince them "I am he", i.e. "I am the man that was once blind".

[JAKEV25]

@SteveSpitz1981 And Jesus was saying...Before Abraham..I have been....Trinitarians mistranslate it as "I AM" to get you to believe there is a connection....See the video on my youtube homepage regarding "I AM"

[SteveSpitz1981]

Oh, I see, so it's all a ploy to fool people then, is it?

[JAKEV25]

Jesus also said that he and disciples were one with God...that doesn't make the disciples God.

[SteveSpitz1981]

Reference please?

[JAKEV25]

@SteveSpitz1981 John 17 : 20-26

[SteveSpitz1981]

Jesus is calling for unity; that all of God's people may be one so that that may see the he lives in them and that Christ has been sent by the Father.

[JAKEV25]

@SteveSpitz1981 He says that His disciples may be one with the Father and Jesus...The disciples are not God Almighty. But God, Jesus and the disciples all work in harmony.

[SteveSpitz1981]

You're not reading this in context: Christ is calling for unity, i.e. a people set apart by holiness. Jesus prays that they may be sanctified.

Read John 17 in its entirety and you'll understand. Open your mind.

[JAKEV25]

@SteveSpitz1981 Steve...I have been debating trinitarians for years...even they do not use this verse as proof of the trinity for the reasons I have already given to you.

[SteveSpitz1981]

So all these years with blinkers on? I apologise if I do not find your arguments to be cogent.

[SteveSpitz1981]

Why would any Trinitarian use John 17 as evidence for the divinity of Christ or the existence of the Trinity? The entire chapter revolves around Christ's prayer and call for unity between all those set apart and made holy for God.

[JAKEV25]

@SteveSpitz1981 Jesus has a God....Jesus was a Jew...His God is JAH..YHWH..Jehovah. He prayed to him..He served him...He had faith in him.

Jesus wants you to worship his God and Father......

Read John 4 :21-26 What does it say?

[SteveSpitz1981]

Again, read the chapter in its entirety, e.g. verse 13. How can Jesus offer someone eternal life unless he has the power to do so? Who can grant eternal life but God?

[JAKEV25]

Sir...Go to Numbers 23:19 and type with your own hands what it says so you can see that you yourself typed exactly what it says there.

[SteveSpitz1981]

Read the verse IN CONTEXT: the passage refers to Balak hiring of Balam to curse the children of Israel. He said that God is not a man that He should lie, or the Son of Man that He should change His mind. God had spoken what He had spoken, and that was the end of the story. Balaam was told to bless the Israelites, and He did. Now that He had blessed them, and subsequently God had blessed them, there was no reversing the blessing.

[JAKEV25]

@SteveSpitz1981 Steve...that's all nice and good...but it has no relevance on the point I make....

The bible Steve states GOD IS NOT A MAN>>>>>AND HE IS NOT THE SON OF MANKIND....regardless of any context you have found doesn't make this verse null and void.

[SteveSpitz1981]

It's the context that particular verse was written and should be read in. It is nothing of my own discovery. Read Numbers 23 in its entirety and you'll understand. Open your mind.

[SteveSpitz1981]

Consider the wording of the verse as well: "God is not man". "God is not man" in the sense that man can be fickle or swayed by others. God is holy and trustworthy unlike "man". What Balaam was referring to is men's sinfulness, and their resultant fickleness. God is not like fallen men. This does not preclude God from ever becoming a man, but only forbids that God should ever become like fallen men, being untrustworthy, lying, or failing to keep His word.

[CatholicCross1393]

Not only is this claim made by JWs, but it's made by classic Seventh-Day Adventists and some reformers (John Gill, etc.)

[SteveSpitz1981]

Yes. This is poignant because it's interesting to note that Charles Taze Russell was an Adventist (now known as "Seventh-Day Adventists") before he established the Watch Tower "society".

[fezik82]

My second point is Jude 1:9 in the New World Translation. It speaks again of Michael and cross-references Daniel 10:13 which states, "... and, look! Mi´cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia". St. Michael apparently is not the only archangel and I originally learned that in the NWT.

[fezik82]

This is a great video! I would like to add two points. In Lk 10:18, Christ states that He has seen Satan fall from heaven like lightning & we do know that Satan is in the world. In the NWT, this vs. CR's Rev 12:8. Vs 7 states that Michael & his angels battled w/the dragon... reading chap 11 & 12, "the woman" was pregnant w/the "male who is to shepherd all the nations w/an iron rod" (Rev 12:5). The WTS states that if Christ were God, He would say so. Lk 10:18 does not state that He is Michael.