Does Torture Ever Work? Keith Olbermann vs the Facts!

[darkling9109]

Regardless of one's opinions on the issue I don't think people should make shit up to support their opinion. The truth is torture does work and it always works. Ask anyone in the special forces or intelligence communities, who isn't a douchebag going for a political career, and they'll tell you that yes it does work. They're trained not to hold out indefinitely, because that's impossible, but just for 24 hours so that assets can be relocated. Everyone breaks eventually.

[auritone]

Brian Ross and ABC has retracted their story in light of new information.

Check it, please!

[klrdotorg]

@auritone Are you speaking of the interview Ross did with Kiriakou? That was an interview he did with one guy - who retracted some of his statements. If you listen to Ross on this video he mentions "several sources". This is not the same story of which ABC issued a retraction.

[auritone]

@klrdotorg I'm speaking of the interview O'Reilly had with Ross in which Ross stated that the people waterboarded gave it up after only 30-40 seconds.

One was waterboarded over 180 times.

Secondly, Ross also retracted his former story of the effectiveness of waterboarding, since it's not clear if the information obtained from the detainees was obtained before or after the waterboarding.

It's the info he reveals in the O'Reilly interview that's retracted.

[klrdotorg]

@auritone Would you mind linking me to what you read? Or telling me where you found it? I looked into this a few months ago, and the only retracted stories I found were regarding the interview of John Kiriakou - which was not the sole basis for what Ross was discussing with O'reilly.

[auritone]

@klrdotorg You can google the story:

"Waterboarding, Interrogations: The CIA's $1,000 a Day Specialists"

See the video "torture architects were unqualified".

[klrdotorg]

@auritone I just read that ABC article - and the follow up from the next day. Neither said that what Ross discussed with O'reilly was retracted. Both point out the contradiction of testimony from Kiriakou - I know that Ross retracted that story. My focus is on the intelligence gathered. Is there evidence that Ross's claim that we got actionable intelligence from the 3 (any/all) that were waterboarded - is not true? Still haven't seen it.

[auritone]

@klrdotorg Yes there is!

If you watch the video it's clearly stated by Ross that it's questionable if the information they got from the waterboarded was actually obtained through the waterboarding.

[klrdotorg]

@auritone I've now watched the video. It says "there's still a vigorous debate on what, if any, useful information came from waterboarding ..." Maybe you're talking about another video?

That's different than what your last post says & what you've represented in all of your posts. I grant you that it's murky ... but I haven't seen anything that suggests it's all a lie.

[auritone]

@klrdotorg I would say there is a huge difference between Ross' previous story that waterboarding was used very sparingly, was medically safe, and produced instant results to used frequently, medical safety was questionable, and results are questionable.

Ross says "contradicting some of our previous reporting". That is as close to a retraction as you can possibly get from Ross who has had several "scoops" fail under closer scrutiny in the past.

[BillTheWaterDrinker]

2:08, What a typical smarmy liberal douche-bag.

[klrdotorg]

For every 1 Jack Rice, I'm sure you could find 10 other CIA agents who would refute Rice's statements (which are really just his opinions). There are partisans in the CIA, and Rice is one of them.

Brian Ross has the objective info on this topic. He's no friend of the Bush administration. But it's clear to anyone who has an ounce of common sense, that the info obtained from the few animals that we water-boarded, saved lives.

Should innocent people die to spare these pigs 35 seconds of h2o?

[justinjade]

You Republican'ts could never understand this but the fact is that WE PROSECUTED JAPANESE OFFICERS IN WORLD WAR II FOR WATERBOARDING!!!! How a bout we water-board you you moron!!!!

[klrdotorg]

Why would you waterboard me? Have I planned or threatened to blow-up innocent people?

I'm pretty sure it's been 6 years since we waterboarded anyone, why is your rhetoric so hot? What did I say - exactly - that you take issue with? Three people have been waterboarded, and those three were definately al quaeda, and we haven't done it in 6 years, and Obama didn't rule out that we'd do it again. And I'm not a republican.

The main point of my post, was that Olby's journalism was biased.

[justinjade]

Simple. 35 seconds 1 second it doesn't matter if we are a people of laws they should be obeyed! Why fight to preserve freedom by destroying it? As for the heat of my rhetoric the fact that you still seem to have questions about whether or not water boarding is torture why don't you find out for your self?

[justinjade]

The world hates us and it is because of ppl who seem to think American lives are worth more than any other life. So when they torture our men we scream bloody murder I just think we should scream just as loud when we do it to them!

[justinjade]

by the way when you have a family member in Iraq right now you tend to take the B.S. that ppl who don't personally!

[klrdotorg]

There are many reasons that I don't get too upset about this issue. I don't consider aq members to be civilized people. I don't think they should be afforded the same protections that regular military should. And if it had been done to more people, some of which whom may not have been commited terrorists - over a longer time period - that would have been more disturbing to me.

I think we crossed some lines, but we backed off. Given the times, and how much we didn't know back then (cont)

[klrdotorg]

(cont) .... I think it's understandable that we took some of these steps. I don't expect you to agree, but that's my opinion.

I'm more disturbed with what took place at abu ghraib - than gtmo. In a.g. we swept up innocents - just to make some quotas for Rumsfeld, and many were abused. That was a cluster fuck, and flat-out wrong. We earned a bad rap from that, and we lost a lot of lives because of it. But we're human and make bad mistakes - particularly during war.

cont.

[klrdotorg]

cont. Once again, my point was about Olbermann, and the fact that just because he has a guest (with an agenda) who says it "doesn't work", does not make it so. It obviously works on some people, and in some circumstances. That doesn't make it right, but Jack Rice is not the last word on the issue, as Olby would have you believe. If we had listened to Olby and withdrawn before the surge, how many more Iraqi's would have died? Is that valuing our lives more than others? No.

[cunextmeet]

And we are believing the Administration on torture because???

[WeedOfCrime]

Khalid Sheik-Mohommed gave valuable information, sang like a bird, after 35 seconds of waterboarding. Can Olberman, Brian Ross, or anybody else cite a single example of the U.S. acting on BAD information that was obtained by waterborading, thereby proving that "torture doesn't work"? Haven't seen it yet.

[Marxism5]

I think I will be more likely to trust what the CIA agent is saying about torture...rather than and ABC journalist. yeah

[cameronmetz]

Comments regarding the Library Tower "plot" are misleading. There is no evidence that the plan was viable other than the statements of KSM.

[lilUljanov]

Brian Ross says he's 100% sure what hes been told is true... yeah.. that's facts. I couldn't even hear Keith Olbermann state torture _never_ works.

I could just as effectively posted this exact same video and called it "Bill O'Reilly vs the Facts". If you're gonna criticize someone, learn about source-checking and be scientific about it!

[egrimnes]

Proof torture doesn't work... I have to live with rediculous bush supporters and John Gibson fans. Im still not buying any of your crap. Keep force feeding your hate..

[SanityCClause]

Wow--great comparison!

So Bathtub Boy's expert says "Teach me" works??

Brian Ross admits that sometimes the info is inaccurate--but comes up with examples where it has worked, over a dozen times.

[08pooled]

"Perhaps you need to review Psalm 37:1-2 and Matthew 7:1-2 and 12"

Perhaps you need to review Ecclesiastes 3:3 and 8, Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 23, and John 2.

The Bible is completely irrelevant in this case anyways, but nonethless, IF we were a theocratic government, the Bible would permit it.

[08pooled]

"Let's see...Brian Ross, ABC News Chief; Jack Rice, trained CIA agent. Yeah, I'm gonna believe Ross over Rice. NOT!"

Rice has an agenda., just like Jope Wilson did.

I'm taking Ross' words.

[chervilant]

Furthermore, you vile pro-torture people cling to a position that is both disgusting and indefensible. Let me guess: you pretend to be Christian, too. Perhaps you need to review Psalm 37:1-2 and Matthew 7:1-2 and 12.

[chervilant]

I love how O'Reilly sycophants want to assert that Brian Ross is 'left wing.' He is NOT left wing NOR is he an 'expert' on the efficacy of torture. Let's see...Brian Ross, ABC News Chief; Jack Rice, trained CIA agent. Yeah, I'm gonna believe Ross over Rice. NOT!

[billbacon]

"That's what we're told by our sources." says the guy on falafel boys show. So neither Fox, nor the guy will take responsibility for validity of the information. They may as well be saying that Hillary had a sex change. On the other hand, the former CIA speaks for himself.

[08pooled]

"Maybe (ponder this a second), just maybe one of our soldiers will be the POW."

If the terrorists get an American POW, they will treat him like shit no matter what we do. We could treat the terrorist POW's like they were gods-it wouldn't matter. The terrorists will still treat our American POW's like animals.

Therefore, we can do whatever the hell we want to a terrorist POW, because the terrorist are going to do whatever the hell they want to an American POW.

[08pooled]

"Your sick morality maybe"

Not just my morality, all of conservative morality, and all of American morality.

POW's don't get rights. We can do whatever the hell we want to them. They're lucky we don't treat them worse. Because we could.

My question is: why does the left give a shit about what we do to POW's?

[ceeenbee]

"My question is: why does the left give a shit about what we do to POW's?"

Are you kidding?

Maybe (ponder this a second), just maybe one of our soldiers will be the POW. Maybe it will be your brother, sister or, god help us you propogate, your child or grand child. That's why.

[08pooled]

"It's possible( and even likely) that torture yields positive results. You just have to assess whether morality allows it or not."

Morality allows it.

We could be doing what Saddam did. Waterboarding and making them listen to redhot chili pepers music is nothing.

[tomspencer155]

Your sick morality maybe...

[dawkinsatheist]

He is so right. Torture is totally justified to save American lives. That's why we have to just NUKE everyone who opposes us. They can all just die so we can be saved. We can survive nuclear winter, right?

[Ninure]

Well we shouldn't believe the people in the Miltary or Inteligence when they tell us Torture desn't work....yeppers.

[tomspencer155]

watch 2.43 to 3.20

the point is the cia guy is far more qualified to comment on the efectivness of torture.

[tomspencer155]

Look, you can have your right wing propaganda, using Fox news as your source to prove Olbermann incorrect shows a level of ignorance higher than I care to comment on.

[civilgillman]

Yea, Brian Ross is a big right winger, isn't he? And you can tell the "CIA Agent" Olbermann has is completely unbiased based on his anti-O'Reilly comment at 2:11. tomspencer155 repeats the same line I hear all the time when someone hears arguments that completely destroy their emotional attachment to a position: "I care not to comment." Brilliant.

[tomspencer155]

Well it was your ignorance I didn't care to comment on - apparently you can't read either.

And torture has been proved to be untrustworthy, that's kinda one of the reasons it was dropped. It gives a great deal of false testimony. O'reilly is using a journalist, Olbermann is using a CIA agent... but no, no O'reilly is right...

[civilgillman]

Torture has been proved to be untrustworthy? Huh? Did you even pay attention to what was in the video?

[tomspencer155]

oh, the O'reilly factor says it is - I believe it then...

Unfortunately I have a wider knowledge of the world than what Fox news tells me.

[civilgillman]

You aren't responding to my arguments. Brian Ross, a left wing reporter said it works. Don't you think he would love to expose it if he could? The "CIA Agent"/lawyer said it doesn't work. Does he speak for the whole CIA? Would we submit people to uncomfortable situations to get them to reveal things if it didn't work? Take a step back. Ignore your emotional attachment to the positions of your side of the aisle. I don't particularly like O'Reilly, but this seems like a credible argument.

[tomspencer155]

watch 2.34 to 3.20

[civilgillman]

Okay. I watched it AGAIN. Watch 3:20 to 4:00. You're cherry picking and finding the things you WANT to hear and only believing those things. Olbermann went through a very simplistic review of what happened. You think there are people in a room torturing terrorists and believing everything they hear? Of course people who are being coerced to give information will try to lead us in the wrong direction. That information is then verified.

[johnedwards1968]

It's possible( and even likely) that torture yields positive results. You just have to assess whether morality allows it or not. I think you could argue that only terrorist states would implement such practices.

[chervilant]

I can identify with your efforts to 'reason' with O'Reilly sycophants. After months of research, I've found that this is an exercise in futility. MOST are fear- and/or hate-based and their world view is distorted and defensive.

[cdiga434]

In Olbyworld, Olbyfacts are the truth.

[bvb720]

I doubt Olbermann can ever tell the truth.

[civilgillman]

Maybe we should torture Olbermann to see if it's possible for his to tell the truth.

[cfolks21]

funny shit civil i think he could use a good torture or two