Yes, I have seen shape note notation. But I meant more generally the use of hand motions to guide singers, regardless of their ability to read music. Sacred Harp singers don't have to know anything about meter to follow the leader's hand movements, right?
I really appreciate your posting this marvelous singing. And thanks for your reply.
@4Topwood You are right, we don't have to know anything about meter, in a theoretical or abstract sense. But except for beginners, I don't think we are so much 'following the leader's hand movements,' as feeling the meter ourselves and expressing it in the pattern that we all learn to use when leading. When we take our turn in the center leading a song of our choice, we all use the same very simple way of 'leading.' No frills. It's not about the leader,but about singing a song together
@comradeshow Although churches that use this kind of singing (Sacred Harp shape note harmony) are few, I'm sure you could find groups of Sacred Harp singers in South Carolina, or all-day singings that would welcome you. Check out the website fasola.org for information about where singings are held all over the nation, contact info etc.
@momgenet Maybe you could say, for the same reason you might tap your foot in time with the music, because you feel the pulse of the music. Also, since the singers sit in a square, the leader in the middle is not equally visible to all, so keeping time 'visibly' this way helps the group stay together. Finally, some of us do it just because it's the custom for Sacred Harp singers to beat the music this way. TRADITION!
The hand motions in Sacred Harp singing remind me of the Kodály Method. My chorus teacher taught singers who couldn't read music to sing a cappella and stay on pitch with that method.
This singing is wonderful, very stirring. I have sung this in church choir using sheet music but I vastly prefer this version. Thanks for posting this.
@4Topwood Interesting observation. However, as a Sacred Harp singer, I can say that the hand motions do not relate to the pitch, but to marking the beat along with the leader in the center of the square.
The shape note method of reading music involves different shapes of the note-heads as written on the staff. But the notes are written on a staff in the same positions as ordinary 'round-notes' would be, so those who already read music can join in without knowing the shape-note system
Very old, Sam Hall/Admiral Benbow, latter day variants of Ye Jacobites by name, or stand up you diggers all before that, which takes us all the way back to the English Revolution and the world turned upside down. It's a very old tune indeed.
@inregionecaecorum Thanks! I can see that you're and expert on the history of these old tunes. This one certainly has had a lot of different words set to it, many if not most, secular.
The connection is that Celtic tunes/melodies are often confused with African tunes/melodies because of the minor key some of the tunes are keyed in. The slaves in the South learned some of the Celtic tunes and adopted/adapted them, so now in present day America the two are confused.
@guckamohl A plausible explanation. However Wondrous Love seems to be pretty much as it came from the Celtic source. This Sacred Harp singing was not a slave tradition nor did it originate in the South, but spread south and west from colonial New England by way of 'singing masters' who went out into the towns and taught 'singing schools' using the shape note system invented for that purpose, and selling their shape note books.
Sorry got to reply here and say English/Celtic source would be more appropriate. People have a horrible habit of forgetting English folk song and culture or else assuming that any culture we do have is Irish.
Please feel free to check out the mudcafe under jacobites if you would like evidence
@meandmymandola Obviously you are right. Thanks for your input. As we can see from the above comments the tune goes back at least as far as the English revolution. I have heard a version with words about the Irish potato famine, and that was probably why I identified the tune as Celtic. I'm hardly a scholar on the subject! & I have the greatest respect for English folk song & culture. I don't allow hostile comments to be posted on my videos, but always welcome relevant information such as yours
@PLBrayfield through my own research (I have a degree in musicology but aside from sacred choral music I also focused on Irish ethnomusiciology), I have found that most of the modal tunes (many of these Aeolians are actually Dorians but we are not accustomed to this term anymore) have Irish roots which are much older than the African adaptations in the 19th century. Most traditional Irish songs are also not in major or minor (Aeolian or Ionian) but rather Dorian and Mixolydian.
@VocalMusicology Any YouTube viewers of Sacred Harp songs who are interested in this kind of technical discussion, please take note! Most, I think, only want to enjoy the music & don't much care if its Aeolian, Dorian etc.But all are welcome to listen & if they choose, comment, so, thanks for the info.
This is buried treasure! Is this from the same roots as African choir music? How did I miss this??? I play Mtn Dulcimer which has a "drone" Traditional DAD tuning. If you vibrate to this type of music you yearn for it. I I will keep searching . The internet gets much criticism for its bad, but I prefer to think of it as "cyber space --quite blessed and spiritual" because I connect to places like this. If you have something like this to participate in, dont move!
I don't know of any connection to African choir music. The music has its roots in colonial New England and back to the British Isles and continental Europe. 'Wondrous Love' is a variant of a folk tune in the British Isles. This traditional type of singing began in the 'New World' with New England singing schools, migrated south and west, died out except in the south, then had a revival and spread back north and west. Many all-day singings and 2-day singing conventions occur across the country.
@PLBrayfield kooch, look up Shape Notes in Google and also Wikipedia. Also look up the history of The Southern Harmony of 1835, a milestone in American hymnody. The video shows a "shape note" performance, where the shape of the notes taught the frontier Americans what key and what tone to sing, in churches where dulcimers and such stood in for pianos and organs. If you study the history of shape note singing in the southern mountains, you will find where to go for singing conventions.
@PLBrayfield jadesceptre's comment below adds good information. I would also suggest looking up The Missouri Harmony, another early collection of shape note songs, first published in 1820; has been called 'the most popular tune book of the South and West until the Civil War.' A large number of songs in The Sacred Harp (1845) were also in The Missouri Harmony. There is also overlap with The Southern Harmony. All these collections are still in use in the US, with Sacred Harp being most used.
@kooch555 The connection is that Celtic tunes/melodies are often confused with African tunes/melodies because of the minor key some of the tunes are keyed in. The slaves in the South learned some of the Celtic tunes and adopted/adapted them, so now in present day America the two are confused.
Beautiful. Does anyone else hear that the melody and verse structure are almost identical to the old music-hall song which I think is called "My name is Sammie Hall..d***n your eyes". Johnnie cash even recorded it.
I'm not familiar with 'My Name is Sammie Hall' but I do know that the tune used in 'Wondrous Love' is a variant of an old English or Irish broadside ballad, "Captain Kidd,' about the notorious pirate. I have heard other words to this tune, one set of lyrics being about the Irish potato famine. It wasn't unusual for various sets of lyrics to be set to some popular tune, including sacred words to secular tunes. As was said, 'Why should the devil have all the good tunes?' ;)
Thank you for placing this wonderful video for all to see. I went once a year to fa sol la singing in the 50's and early 60's with my grandmother who always sat on the front bench, singing alto and knew all the songs by heart. This rekindles a fond memory of her and the sincerity of her love for the music and her Christian life and of those gathered in that small wooden 1 room church in South Central Alabama. The sound makes chills on me. Such powerful music.
Good point! In Sacred Harp/shape note singing, the 'melody' is surrounded, so to speak, by harmony lines above and below it, so that it's hard to distinguish just what IS the melody sometimes. All the parts may have interesting lines that might be considered 'a melody' (unlike in many other kinds of part-singing, where, say, the bass only sings the bottom harmony note of a chord that supports the soprano (melody) line. That's one reason shape note singing is more fun for singers of all parts!
In the old music of pre-baroque Europe, "tenor", as the meaning of the word suggests, was the line that held the main line. "Bass" underscored, forming the base. "Alto" framed it higher. "Soprano" superimposed over that.
Yes, thanks for the information! In this, as well some other characteristics, Sacred Harp music harks back to and preserves many features of much older traditions.
Yes, these events draw all ages. That young man's father is also present. He has been bringing his son to Sacred Harp singings ( it seems) since the boy was just big enough to say 'fasola' and now he will soon enter college.
Thank you for all of your postings. I started singing recently and am learning a ton on Youtube. When I started singing I imagined my little one coming with me and falling as much in love with it as I am. So far, no luck. Still working on it.
Thanks for the comment that you are 'learning a ton on YouTube.' One of my reasons for posting Sacred Harp videos and information about shape note singing and its traditions is just that - so interested people can learn about this wonderful music and, if they choose, join the community of singers.
Man, I wish I could do this in real life, as opposed to watching it on a computer and wishing the same. I have a VERY old copy of the Sacred Harp book (19th century), and I love looking through it. Despite the somber tone and words of many of the Sacred Harp pieces, I believe that I would rather have THIS faith--strong, deep, moving--than the faith of many I see around me.
Thanks for the comment. I agree with your comments on the songs and the spiritual qualities of the music. There are groups that get together to sing Sacred Harp, scattered all over the country. Maybe you could locate one near you. In my experience, newcomers are always welcomed. Check out the website 'fasola dot org' for information about times and places.
I hope you have the experience someday -- it gives you chills to sit in that square. Or to stand out in the churchyard and hear that sound coming out of a little wooden church.
Yes, I have seen shape note notation. But I meant more generally the use of hand motions to guide singers, regardless of their ability to read music. Sacred Harp singers don't have to know anything about meter to follow the leader's hand movements, right?
I really appreciate your posting this marvelous singing. And thanks for your reply.
4Topwood 2 months ago
@4Topwood You are right, we don't have to know anything about meter, in a theoretical or abstract sense. But except for beginners, I don't think we are so much 'following the leader's hand movements,' as feeling the meter ourselves and expressing it in the pattern that we all learn to use when leading. When we take our turn in the center leading a song of our choice, we all use the same very simple way of 'leading.' No frills. It's not about the leader,but about singing a song together
PLBrayfield 2 months ago
@PLBrayfield
Yes, I can both hear and see in this video (and other Sacred Harp videos) that it's the singers as a group, not the leader, that's the focus.
Thanks again for replying and for explaining a bit more about how it works.
4Topwood 2 months ago
I wish they had churches like this in South Carolina
comradeshow 7 months ago
@comradeshow Although churches that use this kind of singing (Sacred Harp shape note harmony) are few, I'm sure you could find groups of Sacred Harp singers in South Carolina, or all-day singings that would welcome you. Check out the website fasola.org for information about where singings are held all over the nation, contact info etc.
PLBrayfield 7 months ago
Comment removed
momgenet 8 months ago
@momgenet Maybe you could say, for the same reason you might tap your foot in time with the music, because you feel the pulse of the music. Also, since the singers sit in a square, the leader in the middle is not equally visible to all, so keeping time 'visibly' this way helps the group stay together. Finally, some of us do it just because it's the custom for Sacred Harp singers to beat the music this way. TRADITION!
PLBrayfield 7 months ago
@PLBrayfield
The hand motions in Sacred Harp singing remind me of the Kodály Method. My chorus teacher taught singers who couldn't read music to sing a cappella and stay on pitch with that method.
This singing is wonderful, very stirring. I have sung this in church choir using sheet music but I vastly prefer this version. Thanks for posting this.
4Topwood 2 months ago
@4Topwood Interesting observation. However, as a Sacred Harp singer, I can say that the hand motions do not relate to the pitch, but to marking the beat along with the leader in the center of the square.
The shape note method of reading music involves different shapes of the note-heads as written on the staff. But the notes are written on a staff in the same positions as ordinary 'round-notes' would be, so those who already read music can join in without knowing the shape-note system
PLBrayfield 2 months ago
Very old, Sam Hall/Admiral Benbow, latter day variants of Ye Jacobites by name, or stand up you diggers all before that, which takes us all the way back to the English Revolution and the world turned upside down. It's a very old tune indeed.
inregionecaecorum 1 year ago
@inregionecaecorum Thanks! I can see that you're and expert on the history of these old tunes. This one certainly has had a lot of different words set to it, many if not most, secular.
PLBrayfield 1 year ago
@inregionecaecorum
A yes. The Levelers music would have come with the Puritans into New England.
Buckeystown 11 months ago
@inregionecaecorum
A yes. The Levelers music would have come with the Puritans into New England. Then followed the music south with the music teachers.
Buckeystown 11 months ago
The connection is that Celtic tunes/melodies are often confused with African tunes/melodies because of the minor key some of the tunes are keyed in. The slaves in the South learned some of the Celtic tunes and adopted/adapted them, so now in present day America the two are confused.
guckamohl 1 year ago
@guckamohl A plausible explanation. However Wondrous Love seems to be pretty much as it came from the Celtic source. This Sacred Harp singing was not a slave tradition nor did it originate in the South, but spread south and west from colonial New England by way of 'singing masters' who went out into the towns and taught 'singing schools' using the shape note system invented for that purpose, and selling their shape note books.
PLBrayfield 1 year ago
@PLBrayfield
Sorry got to reply here and say English/Celtic source would be more appropriate. People have a horrible habit of forgetting English folk song and culture or else assuming that any culture we do have is Irish.
Please feel free to check out the mudcafe under jacobites if you would like evidence
Peace from across the pond
meandmymandola 9 months ago
@meandmymandola Obviously you are right. Thanks for your input. As we can see from the above comments the tune goes back at least as far as the English revolution. I have heard a version with words about the Irish potato famine, and that was probably why I identified the tune as Celtic. I'm hardly a scholar on the subject! & I have the greatest respect for English folk song & culture. I don't allow hostile comments to be posted on my videos, but always welcome relevant information such as yours
PLBrayfield 9 months ago
@PLBrayfield through my own research (I have a degree in musicology but aside from sacred choral music I also focused on Irish ethnomusiciology), I have found that most of the modal tunes (many of these Aeolians are actually Dorians but we are not accustomed to this term anymore) have Irish roots which are much older than the African adaptations in the 19th century. Most traditional Irish songs are also not in major or minor (Aeolian or Ionian) but rather Dorian and Mixolydian.
VocalMusicology 8 months ago
@VocalMusicology Any YouTube viewers of Sacred Harp songs who are interested in this kind of technical discussion, please take note! Most, I think, only want to enjoy the music & don't much care if its Aeolian, Dorian etc.But all are welcome to listen & if they choose, comment, so, thanks for the info.
PLBrayfield 8 months ago
The people appear to be enjoying themselves and are blessed. Refreshing.
Azishome 1 year ago
This is buried treasure! Is this from the same roots as African choir music? How did I miss this??? I play Mtn Dulcimer which has a "drone" Traditional DAD tuning. If you vibrate to this type of music you yearn for it. I I will keep searching . The internet gets much criticism for its bad, but I prefer to think of it as "cyber space --quite blessed and spiritual" because I connect to places like this. If you have something like this to participate in, dont move!
kooch555 2 years ago 2
I don't know of any connection to African choir music. The music has its roots in colonial New England and back to the British Isles and continental Europe. 'Wondrous Love' is a variant of a folk tune in the British Isles. This traditional type of singing began in the 'New World' with New England singing schools, migrated south and west, died out except in the south, then had a revival and spread back north and west. Many all-day singings and 2-day singing conventions occur across the country.
PLBrayfield 2 years ago
@PLBrayfield kooch, look up Shape Notes in Google and also Wikipedia. Also look up the history of The Southern Harmony of 1835, a milestone in American hymnody. The video shows a "shape note" performance, where the shape of the notes taught the frontier Americans what key and what tone to sing, in churches where dulcimers and such stood in for pianos and organs. If you study the history of shape note singing in the southern mountains, you will find where to go for singing conventions.
jadesceptre 1 year ago
@PLBrayfield jadesceptre's comment below adds good information. I would also suggest looking up The Missouri Harmony, another early collection of shape note songs, first published in 1820; has been called 'the most popular tune book of the South and West until the Civil War.' A large number of songs in The Sacred Harp (1845) were also in The Missouri Harmony. There is also overlap with The Southern Harmony. All these collections are still in use in the US, with Sacred Harp being most used.
PLBrayfield 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kooch555 The connection is that Celtic tunes/melodies are often confused with African tunes/melodies because of the minor key some of the tunes are keyed in. The slaves in the South learned some of the Celtic tunes and adopted/adapted them, so now in present day America the two are confused.
guckamohl 1 year ago
This music is so much more important to what made America than you even know
jdhatl 2 years ago
I live in Central Texas. Is there a shape note singing school close by? I want to learn this. This is truely amazing!
kstewintheart4u 2 years ago
Beautiful. Does anyone else hear that the melody and verse structure are almost identical to the old music-hall song which I think is called "My name is Sammie Hall..d***n your eyes". Johnnie cash even recorded it.
peterlivingstone 2 years ago
I'm not familiar with 'My Name is Sammie Hall' but I do know that the tune used in 'Wondrous Love' is a variant of an old English or Irish broadside ballad, "Captain Kidd,' about the notorious pirate. I have heard other words to this tune, one set of lyrics being about the Irish potato famine. It wasn't unusual for various sets of lyrics to be set to some popular tune, including sacred words to secular tunes. As was said, 'Why should the devil have all the good tunes?' ;)
PLBrayfield 2 years ago
Comment removed
themisskatiebeth 2 years ago
Thank you for placing this wonderful video for all to see. I went once a year to fa sol la singing in the 50's and early 60's with my grandmother who always sat on the front bench, singing alto and knew all the songs by heart. This rekindles a fond memory of her and the sincerity of her love for the music and her Christian life and of those gathered in that small wooden 1 room church in South Central Alabama. The sound makes chills on me. Such powerful music.
menabo900 2 years ago
Just for people who may be familiar with this song, but not with shape-note singing, the TENORS have the melody as is often the case.
redhairedlad 3 years ago
Good point! In Sacred Harp/shape note singing, the 'melody' is surrounded, so to speak, by harmony lines above and below it, so that it's hard to distinguish just what IS the melody sometimes. All the parts may have interesting lines that might be considered 'a melody' (unlike in many other kinds of part-singing, where, say, the bass only sings the bottom harmony note of a chord that supports the soprano (melody) line. That's one reason shape note singing is more fun for singers of all parts!
PLBrayfield 3 years ago
In the old music of pre-baroque Europe, "tenor", as the meaning of the word suggests, was the line that held the main line. "Bass" underscored, forming the base. "Alto" framed it higher. "Soprano" superimposed over that.
ottotanto 2 years ago
Yes, thanks for the information! In this, as well some other characteristics, Sacred Harp music harks back to and preserves many features of much older traditions.
PLBrayfield 2 years ago
I love that one of the singers on the front bench is wearing an AC/DC shirt.
chloesmomct 3 years ago
Yes, these events draw all ages. That young man's father is also present. He has been bringing his son to Sacred Harp singings ( it seems) since the boy was just big enough to say 'fasola' and now he will soon enter college.
PLBrayfield 3 years ago
Thank you for all of your postings. I started singing recently and am learning a ton on Youtube. When I started singing I imagined my little one coming with me and falling as much in love with it as I am. So far, no luck. Still working on it.
chloesmomct 3 years ago
Well, I hope it happens.
Thanks for the comment that you are 'learning a ton on YouTube.' One of my reasons for posting Sacred Harp videos and information about shape note singing and its traditions is just that - so interested people can learn about this wonderful music and, if they choose, join the community of singers.
PLBrayfield 3 years ago
Man, I wish I could do this in real life, as opposed to watching it on a computer and wishing the same. I have a VERY old copy of the Sacred Harp book (19th century), and I love looking through it. Despite the somber tone and words of many of the Sacred Harp pieces, I believe that I would rather have THIS faith--strong, deep, moving--than the faith of many I see around me.
AMPeveto 4 years ago
Thanks for the comment. I agree with your comments on the songs and the spiritual qualities of the music. There are groups that get together to sing Sacred Harp, scattered all over the country. Maybe you could locate one near you. In my experience, newcomers are always welcomed. Check out the website 'fasola dot org' for information about times and places.
PLBrayfield 4 years ago
I hope you have the experience someday -- it gives you chills to sit in that square. Or to stand out in the churchyard and hear that sound coming out of a little wooden church.
mcduffyhc 3 years ago
This is perfect demonstration that faith has a physical dimension. This is what liturgical theologian Don Saliers calls "humanity at full stretch!"
85mello07 3 years ago
Wow, my Mom is famous! Thank you to whoever posted this, I've been missing that Shapenote resonance in my life...
caitedid18 4 years ago