Norton made a mistake to cruise in that last round. Ali out boxed him for most of the round and it cost Norton. Ali won, by very thin margin but Ali did win.
All Ali's wins by decision or even TKO are and will always be disputed by some haters that are numerous in You Tube. Even KO victories like vs Foreman in 1974 are lol
1:Ali 2:Ali 3:Even 4:Even 5:Norton 6:Norton 7:Ali 8:Norton 9:Even 10:Ali 11:Even 12:Norton 13:Even 14:Norton 15:Norton Ali: 4, Norton: 6 Even:5, Ali 144, Norton 146 Even though it seems Norton was never hurt and Ali was, Norton never pushed home the advantage even though Ali had nothing on this night, so his margin was not as great as it seemed. After this night, Ali was emasculated as a boxer. Did the Parkinson's play a role (I don't believe he got it through boxing)? Who knows.
@MrPerryrice Also, it wouldn't be "refs", it would be ref. There is only one referee in boxing. On that note, there is a reason why they don't let the referee judge the match anymore. But you didn't know any of that did you? You see, you don't bother with "facts" or any of that nonsense. As for me being a hater; I don't hate Ali, I like the boxer. He was pretty good. The legend never existed though. The legend was sold to you, and you bought it up. Warped judgment? Take a look in the mirror.
@MrPerryrice Well, there are plenty examples of the judges giving VERY bad decisions. Decisions that are criticized years after the fight. Would you like an example? Well it is a pretty common belief among boxing reporters and historians that the third Ali/Norton fight was among the worst decisions of all time. But don't bother concerning yourself with this; boxing fans are interested is discussing boxing facts, Ali fans want to worship a legend that never really existed.
@324582782 If there was no doubt then people wouldn't still mention what a horrible decision it was to this day. The fact that people question it, despite the fact that Ali was involved, really shows how bad the judgement was. No one wants to question Ali, everyone wants to believe he was invincible. However, this is a black eye on his resume. Truth is, Ali couldn't handle Norton, he was never able to figure him out. The second fight was also VERY close and could have gone to Norton...
@spman2099 I think you're in denial. These announcers are obviously biased. Whenever Ali peppers Norton with the jab and stunts his offense it doesn't count? Norton honestly cannot win rounds based on 1-2 big power shots. Norton was not as active as he should have been. Ali did land alot of jabs and he did make Norton look wild and miss at times. Norton did have defining moments but whenever Ali danced or attacked he was not effective. Only when Ali was on the ropes did Norton back him good.
@spman2099 To be honest I can name you many close fights where people didn't like the decision. The most recent example is pacquiao vs marquez 3, The fight was close no doubt but in the end pacquiao pulled it off yet people didn't like it. And they go around saying marquez is robbed but in truth marquez lost the fight fair n square. I think a lot of people watch boxing and follow what commentators say. I had Ali winning this fight, a really close one but he pulled it off.
@spman2099 People don't know how to score, Alot of them think that marquez beat pacquiao but the fact is that pacquiao beat him even though it was a close fight. Just like that people wanted Norton ( an under dog ) to win the fight. When they see that its a close fight they wanted their man to win but norton lost. Doesn't mean norton won.
Just watch the fight,& observe both fighters & pay special attention to where Norton's most powerful & most numerous body blows land -on Ali's gloves,arms, elbows, shoulders, even his hips & otherwise below the belt- sorry, don't count a single one of those cuz they were low or blocked & therefore don't count; so just count the blows Norton had left & U will see Ali scored more shots that count than Norton did, thus, Ali won, regardless of how powerful Norton's blocked and missed punches were.
@MrPerryrice You really only see what you want to see, don't you. This is delusional, you are delusional. Why not focus on the fights Ali DID win and stop trying to defend what was most certainly a terrible decision?
This is one of the closest fights ever. Everytime I see it I get a new disicion. But I do think people get a bit too ecited when Norton is attacking. He hits Ali to the body alot of times, but Ali is blocking alot of the punches. Ali is in my view the clear winner of round 15, eventhough Norton tries to steal the round in the last 15-20 seconds - but thats just not enough to win the round. My verdict: 8-6-1 Ali
and if Norton would have won that fight, this doesnt make him a better boxer than Ali,
because ali knocked those out who destroyed Norton, additional to this, ali was out of his prime in that fight,the parkinson disease had began to slow ali down, therfore he got hit from the big shots of norton, even though ali was able to avoid them,
The doctor of ali recommended him to retire after that fight but ali didnt listen
as you can see, 2 of 3 judges agree that ali won because ali won one round more than norton, only one says ali won 2 rounds more than norton,
What would have happened if Norton had won that fight? al least Earnie Shavers or Larry Holmes would have knocked norton out,and they did, Norton wouldnt have been a Heavyweight Champion for a long time
so afterwars i think it was a good decision to give ali that fight,
i ´ve seen the whole fight from first round to 15th and in my opinion it was a draw till the end of the 10th round, if you listened to the comentators and the judges scorecards they all agree that its a draw till the end of the 10th round, and in my opinion i agree with them,
so if you wanna know who has won in this fight then beginn to watch it from the 10 th round,
doesnt matter which round you will give ali but ali won 3 rounds and norton 2 rounds after the 10th
Fighters like Norton couldn't have great success at all compared to those of Ali's class. Well, I see and anybody can see like me that Norton has really tremendous power in his hands, but just can't use it in an effective way according to boxing principles, which counts blows landed on one's head, not on his body. Ali is a good physical condition, and blows on his body don't affect him.
Good fight, but I almost think people get too into Norton's role of "stalker" here, as though Ali trying hard to avoid his punches means they're worth more points than they are. Ali threw more punches in this round, missed less if not equally, and landed every hit directly. It's not like Norton was really pushing him around when he did hit him. Each time Ali took a punch, tied him up to minimize the follow up body shots, and then get separated and go back to dancing.
@endajsheridan Lennox's fight game is under rated due to people making the mistake of judging him by his poor performances when he was unprepared, uninspired or past his prime.Give me a prime,fully prepared & inspired Lennox Lewis at the top of his game,out to prove himself,& I rank him to beat every HW champion in history, except Ali who under the same conditioning I pick to barely outpoint him. I like Ali,Lennox, Holmes, Jack Johnson, 1950s Liston,Foreman,Holyfield & Joe Louis in that order...
remember jesse owen would have only beaten flo jo , the female sprinter from the 80s by a few feet. The further one looks back in sports the worse they get .
Power , conditioning , nutrition, etc.
If one was to pick the 10 best heavyweight performances , ie technically the hardest to beat on that night for the other fighter.
Riddick Bowe would probably be there, Lennox Lewis would be very high ( maybe number 1) . klitschkos brothers would probably make the list.
first i have to say , I dont really like Vitali or Lennox lewis , But you must consider that big men who aren t clumsy or weak with very good skills can beat smaller heavyweights from other eras , This is a good example , Sugar Ray probably would have lost to Archie Moore , Do you agree ? In terms of pounds etc Archie had about 15-20 on Sugar. Sugar was taller or the same. So a man who simply is bit , could beat the best boxer of all time? Size matters in boxing .
...and with a lot of reservations &soul searching, I'll gamble on Mike Tyson 9th, & Joe Frazier 10th. I must say both moved up to a top 10 on my list only after recent study of the fights, and picking my top 8, I realized I'd seen no fighter left good enough to beat them. So, after arguing these previous months against them as top 10, careful study has made me eat those words. Frazier's 10th on my list. Lennox Lewis 2nd, Ali 1st; I pick Ali to find a way to upset anybody in history.
endajsheridan You are right, I forgot Riddick for whipping up on Holy; but I'm not impressed with who the Klitschkos beat. That's why I didn't name them.
Imagine a tournament were these guys best preformance is put against lets say each lineal Champion since Jack Johnson.Who would come out the best .
I would be interested in that list .Because when you look at boxing that way , you start to actually ask the question , who was the best.Example Joe louis probably would get knocked out by Vitali .Look at the best heavyweights of all time Louis is probably in the top 3 .
@endajsheridan In such a tournament I pick the 1966 Ali vs Cleaveland Williams, & the 1974 versions of Ali vs Frazier (to at the least),outpoint any HW in history. Tho Cleve was pastprime,Ali's skill level,size,strength,& accuracy was so superior a mismatch for him,that not even a prime Williams could have made it a match. In this fight Ali was 25,had gotten bigger,gaining hitting power,sharpening his elusiveness,& was not yet beat down by the political & prison turmoil distracting him in his...
...last 1960s bout where he was living in hell. The 1971 Frazier who caught up to 1971 Ali all those times...wouldn't have caught the Ali Cleveland Williams faced in 1966 half as much.It's unimaginable that Joe could've escaped a decision loss to 1966 Ali, when he barely escaped the 71 version of Ali who was immensely more hittable. And the 1974 Ali that Joe couldn't lay a glove on, and almost decked by, wouldn't have been caught by anybody in history either. 66 & 74 Ali outpoints everybody.
Sprinters have a clock to prove their greatness.I think modern heavyweights are getting a ripped off regarding how they would do against the "best in history".
@endajsheridan Very interesting point you're making with the clock. Too bad we don't have a counterpart to measure our boxers with. The lineal thing is how I came up with my list (oops for forgetting Bowe who easily replaces Frazier &Tyson in my view); I'm unable to rank Vitali as a top 10 because in his best performance he lost to Lennox, not only that but also got terribly wounded necessitating a TKO ruling against him. I don't think this eras HWs are underrated. Maybe the next generation...
Now, just to set the cat amongst the pigeons, here's another top 10 that I omitted earlier. Can you guess whose it is? 1. Jack Johnson 2. Joe Louis 3. Muhammad Ali 4. Jack Dempsey 5. Rocky Marciano 6. Gene Tunney 7. Sam Langford 8. Jersey Joe Walcott 9. Floyd Patterson 10. Ezzard Charles
No one cares what a bunch of randoms on a forum think and in any case, you only handpicked ones who agree with you.
Of the 25 or so lists I named, 16 excluded Liston from their top 10, 13 excluded Frazier and 14 excluded Foreman. 15 did not have Ali at #1. That's not a consensus. You just have to deal with the fact that a lot of boxing people disagree with you. Insulting anyone who isn't a myopic Ali cheerleader just makes you look stupid and childish and it won't change reality.
Maybe some imaginary consensus in your head. Here on earth, based on all the fighters/historians etc listed, there is no consensus for them being top 10. That's just your opinion and frankly no one cares about the opinion of a moron who reads Bleacher Report and thinks Joe Frazier is "scum". The only reason you think they're great is because Ali beat them. Hey, if Ali's the GOAT, then everyone he beat must have been great too, right. Do you have Chuck Wepner in your top 10 as well?
@FlaviusConstantius Nope,It's fact,even by the lists U named (excluding the discredited/ridiculous one by Nat Fleischer)Liston,Frazier & Foreman appear more often than not among the 10 Greatest Heavyweight Champions. U want to discredit them all just cuz Ali beat them;but sorry,there are not 10 HW Champs names appearing more often than theirs- that's by consensus. Nope,they are great cuz of their fighting ability,not just cuz Ali beat them;U sing Wepner's praises,not me. Stop reading Fleischer.
And finally, Frazier, Foreman, Liston; one flukish win, a dull controversial decision, two fakes and only one good fight that he tried to quit in twice. Hardly GOAT material. And most importantly, none of them were anywhere their best when Ali beat them. The Liston fights were fakes, Frazier was shot and had eye/diabetes/HBP issues, Foreman was in poor physical/mental shape and Ali ducked the rematch. May as well say Leon was great for beating the 1978 Ali.
@FlaviusConstantius Glad to see U back to the whinny excuses again. Don’t help cuz Ali still TKO’d the indestructible Liston 2xs (No evidence either was fake-Liston just saw he couldn’t beat Ali & quit both times); Ali still boxed Frazier to a UD then made him quit like Liston did; & KOd his second indestructible Champion Foreman & took his title; he still gets most votes for GOAT. So make all the sore loser excuses U want, Ali’s legacy is engraved all over the boxing world forever.
It's funny seeing you foaming at the mouth over Langford while dismissing fixed fights your hero was in. The Liston fights were fake. One of the meanest toughest HWs in history get's KOd by a punch that wouldn't have knocked you over? A guy who lasted the distance with a broken jaw quits in an even fight after 6 uneventful rounds with a 'sore shoulder'? No thank you. And that's before you even consider Sonny's mob ties and the NOI.
@FlaviusConstantius U gave proof Langfords were fixed & he agreed to them;& unproven conspiracy theory against Sonny (not Ali). All we know is Sonny quit both times,the first cuz Ali beat him up& he couldn’t catch Ali (nobody but U think it was even);the second time cuz he was gonna get beat up again.No evidence to the contrary exists. Plus,make your mind up about Sonny: First he was a washed up 1950s fighter when Ali got to him,now he’s “one of the meanest,toughest HW in history” against Ali?
As a matter of interest , what would your top ten be.If you had to pick them on the basis ,that they are at their best and they have to fight a random great heavyweight tonight.Just one caution , consider the flying finn , the runner who won several Olympics gold medals years ago.If he ran today , he would be lapped.My point is the recent larger heavyweights with superb conditioning , nutrition etc would do better than most people would think.
@endajsheridan Flat out I say Ali,Lennox Lewis,Holmes,Jack Johnson, Riddick Bowe, 1950s Liston,Foreman,Holyfield, are the eight I pick to KO or outpoint the best big Heavyweights of today (Klitschko included); and with less confidence I'd gamble on Joe Louis,& Mike Tyson beating them too. That's my 10 GOATs. Neither the lineal nor the size & conditioning advantage you give the modern HWs is any substitute for the innate skill & ability to fight through punishment,absorb a beating without...
...anything cutting or breaking on you, & able to finish even if it does; heart enough to overcome adversity, fight through exhaustion, rise from the canvass to win a war of attrition; rally & score a last minute flurry, TKO, or knockout when you are behind and seemingly had nothing left. Then the skills, smarts & ability to avoid the damage in the first place. Modern HWs lag behind in all these categories. Plus, if the lineal argument held water Cooney would have beaten Larry Holmes. Also, I...
... I have a problem with you comparing the obvious lineal trend in the less complicated & less complex sport of footracing,with boxing which involves/requires far more variables/talents and skill in many more areas than a simple foot race. Aside from brute strength for speed,& conditioning for endurance,knowing when to accelerate,how many more variables,skills,smarts/heart/ability is needed to run a few seconds? Doesn't even compare to all the variables and talents involved in boxing.
Ali's win % is inflated by lots of wins against nonentities. His win % against Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Ellis, Terrell, Berbick, Leon, Patterson and Liston, the 10 HW champs he faced, is 70%. With the 2 gifts he got against Norton, it falls to 58%. Frazier II was a draw at best and the Liston fights were fakes (no credit for fixed fights) so his win % falls to 41%. Ellis and Patterson were blown up MWs, so his win % vs legit HWs is 28%. A much more accurate reflection of his level.
BTW, just GOOGLED 'Scott 9945' and this is their view on Ali-Norton III: "Most people including me feel Norton won that fight, the people that thought Ali won are definitely in the minority". LOL you're the gift that keeps on giving.
Oh, and as you reckon Ali "threw every punch in the book", do name a fight where he throws a solar plexus punch. Even guys in the 1890s could do that.
@FlaviusConstantius Aren’t U the one that dismissed what most people think cuz they used to think the sun revolved around the earth? Now suddenly they count? The point is that “Scott 9945” had Liston, Frazier & Foreman on their list of top 10 all time greatest HW champions defeated by Ali-thanks for validating his opinion. I saw Ali threw body blows against Liston 1- didn’t you? Just watch it again and see. But 1890s guys could not defeat Liston, Frazier & Big George – Ali could & did.
The point is 'Scott9945' is some anonymous poster on an internet forum who you've plucked out of thin air because he happens to agree with you. That's the best you can do to back you up. Well, you cling to Larry, Moe and Curly's opinion if it makes you happy. I'll stick to the consensus of trainers, fighters, historians and sportswriters. And I said solar plexus punch, not your generic body blow, and do please show the round and time where he threw these against Liston.
@FlaviusConstantius No,the point was/is whether,Liston,Frazier & Foreman are by consensus of both fans & experts alike among the top 10 HW Champions OAT; & they are (even on your lists more often than not); so why piss on the fans opinion,when his is more sensible than U & your senile hero Nat Fliescher's? The consensus of most trainers,fighters,historians &writers disagree with U & Fliescher's list, so how can U claim to stick with them? Now we're arguing "solar plexus" vs "generic body blow"?
@MrPerryrice Marty Marshall, a 180lb journeyman with a 23-13-2 career record beat Liston and busted his jaw and dropped him as well, so enough of this "indestructible" nonsense. And this was a young Liston, not an old inactive champ under threat from the mob and the NOI. If Marshall can beat Liston, then storied HOFers like Fitz, Sharkey or Jeffries definitely could.
@FlaviusConstantius That Fluke! Liston a novice then,turned pro the previous year,had just 7 pro fights under his belt,Marshall a vet,made Sonny laugh & hit him when his mouth was open;Sonny still fought to a split decision with a broken jaw-(adding to his image of invincibility). Sonny KOd him in 6 rounds next time; then in 3rd fight Marshall ran for dear life, Sonny beat him easily 9 rounds to 0, 1 round even. The last 2 fights prove it was a fluke; & no Fitz,Sharkey or Jeffries beating Sonny.
Wepner was a crude 36 year old club fighter who was TKOd in 6 rounds or less by Joe Bugner, Buster Mathis, Duane Bobick, Jerry Tomasetti, Jerry Judge and a novice George Foreman. A 40+ Sonny Liston TKOd him in 10. So did someone named Horst Geisler. The same Wepner went 15 rounds with Ali, roughed him up and even knocked him flat on his back. That's the real level of your GOAT.
@FlaviusConstantius So, an old, declined, diminished skilled fat 234 pound outta shape Ali, who U said was washed up in his 1974 fight with Frazier and showing signs of Parkinsons in 1975, took 15 rounds to put 108 stitches in Wepner’s face and TKO him? So Ali had enough left to do that, eh? That only adds to Ali’s greatness. His real level is not Wepner though, it’s TKOing Liston 2x; beating Frazier 2xs (once by TKO) and upsetting the world again by KOing George Forman too. Nice Resume 4 a GOAT
You're happy to build up Ali for beating old, fat, shot fighters but when it's Ali who's old or fat you don't want it to count. You didn't care that Cleveland Williams had multiple gunshot injuries when he fought Ali or that Frazier had HBP and a kidney infection. You also had no problem bashing Sam Langford for losses he suffered when he was old and going blind. Sorry but you can't have it both ways. That's why I count Ali's losses to Holmes, Berbick and Leon.
@FlaviusConstantius Can't U read? I'm crediting the old fat diminished capacity Ali for his heroics even in his Parkinson's condition.Of course I'm saying count it.& I count Ali's 5 loses so what are Utalking about? That's why U must count Sonny's 2 losses without excuse,Frazier's 2,Norton's 2,Foreman's1,Neon's1, etc who all lost to Ali without excuse. Can't have it both ways- so hell yeah, especially count Fixed Fight Sam Langfords 31 losses& 40 ridiculous draws. No excuses!
Uare the stupidest fackingest boxing expert I've seen. I'm watchiing these old fight films &they dont support the hoopla surrounding them. Trust me Old Senile Dunce: there's nothing in these films of the actual fights to justify their legends created by boxing writers. They simply can't move. No wonder Jack Johnson,a flat footed Ali,could dominate them as he did. 40's, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s & 2000's fighters would simply annihilate them. A 185 pounder in the 70s? Dream U stupid idiot. Ali GOAT
I just finished watchin the Fight of The Century, Ali Frazier 1. Oh hell; Frazier is lucky Ali ran out of gas. Ali beat the hell outta him for 10 rounds. That scum Frazier couldn't do it again tho. What a fight! Both would beat the shyt outta Fixed-Fight-Sam, Jennette, McVey, Battling Jim Johnson and the whole little assed, flat footed, no defense, no movement having crew. Whoaa! Ali's generation is second to none.
Mrs. FlaviusLeFemme! You are seriously STUPID! Imagining 5'6'', 185 pound Fixed Fight Sam Langford facing Smoking Joe Frazier? Are You Stupid for real? Of course you are; cuz you are senile. Joe Frazier would kill his ass. Imagine him against MIKE TYSON! Oh, God, save the little flat footed, no movement slugger! Tyson would demolish him. Big George would simply get arrested/executed for Murder against Fixed-Fight-Sam! Ali/Holmes/Evander/Lennox/Klitschos would be shamed to prison forever! Oh,God!
@FlaviusConstantius Mrs FlaviusLeFemme: Please tell us about this expert of yours named Nat Fleischer.The same who was wrong enough to pick Sonny over Ali? I'm studying up on him now.I dare U to respond in defense of Fliescher who was always on the losing side against Ali. Tell us about your boxing expert Nat so I can reveal U are a fool. I dee double dare U...U rediculous old senile fool! Lets go! Tell us Nat Fleischer's damn credibility. Let's go!Fliescher eqauls dirt assessing Ali's ability.
Nat Fleischer founded the Ring and was boxing's foremost historian and writer for 50 years. He saw all the HW champs from Jim Jeffries onwards. Jack Johnson was a personal friend of his. He saw Ali all through his prime years, usually at ringside. Was in Rome when he won gold. Was at ringside for the Liston fakes. Was at ringside for the FOTC. But what would Nat Fleischer know about boxing? LOL
@FlaviusConstantius Nat knew nothing about assessing Ali’s abilities as a fighter,nor much about anybody else’s-his ridiculous top 10 list from 1971 proves it; pre 1930s fighters are his top 5 (no Joe Louis or Ali),7 of his top 10 are White(only 3 Black boxers made his list);-shows he didn't get what he was looking at. Louis was #6 & Ali,Liston/Frazier appeared not at all. Didn’t he die senile too while still in office? No wonder you get your opinions from him; boxing passed him & U by too.
@MrPerryrice Someone who quotes Bleacher Report and anonymous posters on internet forums declares that one of boxing's premier writers/historians who saw them all from ringside "knew nothing". Classic Perryrice. Right up there with 'Jimmy Young knocked out George Foreman' and 'Ali was the only one to deck Wepner'.
@FlaviusConstantius U are an “anonymous poster” on internet forums yourself, so it’s self mutilation for U to bash what U are; you are no better than them. Bleacher Report has credible, knowledgeable articles and writers, just as many others do. & most sources, even those U named prove your Hero Worship of Nat Fleischer’s opinions of fighters’ abilities & rankings unworthy of serious consideration. Old senile Nat’s top 10 Rankings, absent Ali, is less credible than anything in Bleacher Report.
Merry Chrismass to everyone.& I invite Uto follow the conversation.I entered it with this FlaviusContantius to hear him(I found out later "her")produce the evidence that exists that Ali is not the greatest contestant for the Crown Of All Time Greatest Heavyweight Champion.The fool tried for over 2 months,but as Ucan see, failed to produce anything credible that produces,substantiates,enthrones anyone with better credentials than those put up by Ali. Therefore,I may end it here most victoriously.
Mrs FlaviusCuntius: In God's name please explain why you go back later and remove your stupidest comments? Isn't that an admission that you have no leg to stand on that you are not ashamed of and embarrassed by? Were you not Senile in your old age you would know what I am talking about and have scrotum sack enough to admit it. But in the end, you are what you are, a lying sack of delirious crap in your last days. And why do you have so many comments flagged as spam? I'm not doing it: U are dirt.
@MrPerryrice Didn't think you could sink any lower than naming Bleacher Report but somehow you managed it, Mrs Perryrice. I named 25+ fighters, trainers, historians and sportswriters who support my view. You have a couple of guys on an internet forum. You may think that's a consensus but, well, it ain't. BTW Jim Jeffries died in 1953 so he definitely didn't have any of them in his top 10, so add him to my list too.
@FlaviusConstantius Ali, by consensus, of fans and Professionals alike, is considered GOAT; & he got there by defeating 3 consensus top 10 Undisputed Heavyweight Champs. Even the consensus of your lists name at least 2 even if not 3 of them: Liston,Foreman &/or Frazier. Their names appear more often than not, even if all 3 are not on the same lists. Fleischer’s old lists don’t even make sense, they lack credibility, not even his own Ring Mag lists agree with him. Jim Jeffries is a poster today.
@MrPerryrice Ah, you didn't mean Jim Jeffries the former HW champ, you meant Jim Jeffries some guy on an internet forum who calls himself Jim Jeffries. They could be a 12 year old for all you know. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you are too. And you're backtracking again. You said the consensus was for ALL in the top 10 when it's demonstrably not the case, so thanks for admitting I was right again. I doubt it's even a consensus on boxing forums.
@FlaviusConstantius Yes; U got it now, some guy who’s knowledgeable & fair-minded enough to produce a Top 10 Greatest HW Champs List that does not exclude Ali. Even a 12 year old fan would know that, but not U & your guru Fleischer. What backtracking? I still say all 3 (Liston/Frazier & Foreman) are ALL by consensus in the top 10 list of all time greats, appearing more times than not, even if all 3 are not on the same list. Can you name 10 HW Champs appearing more than them?
Sam was denied the chance to fight an undisputed champ because of politics and racism, so to bash him for that would be like bashing Ali for being winless from from April 67- Sept 70. In any event, the world colored HW title was the more legit title at the time given that most of the top HWs were black and Johnson, Dempsey and Willard were ducking them. 10% of Sam's wins were against world colored HW champs so he trumps Ali there and he didn't need phantom punches and gift decisions to do it.
@FlaviusConstantius Sam had a chance at Jack Johnson & lost (decked 2x) but had Sam won we could at least say he beat a man that became Undisputed champ. The Colored title wasn’t more legit cuz Jack already beat the best Colored fighters; so he went on to the White ones & the most money. Plus if a White fighter beat Jack why couldn’t he beat other Blacks like Sam? Why assume Sam’s or the Colored title’s superiority? Sam’s colored HOF fighters don’t trump Ali’s HOF & Undisputed Champ fighters.
I said solar plexus. That's a specific body punch, not just any body punch. Kinda like me saying name a fight where Ali throws a right hook and you name any punch. If Ali threw "every punch in the book" as you claim then he would have thrown a solar plexus punch at some point. In which case, name the fight.
@FlaviusConstantius Hmm; first half of your point is made. I'll have to finish revisiting Ali's fights looking specifically for the "Solar plexus" shot, before I can see if he never threw one proving the second half of your point right.
@MrPerryrice Don't bother. He never threw one. So your "Ali is the bestest fighter ever because he threw every punch in the book" line has gone the way of "the hoopla is about a 92% win rate".
Ohh and guess what? Turns out Bleacher Report don't have Liston in their top 10 either. But they do have Ali in their top 10....most overrated boxers of all time LOL. Your consensus is shrinking by the minute, Mrs Perryrice. And not the only thing of yours that shrinks by the minute, according to Mrs LeFemme anyway. LOL
Consensus [kuhn-sen-suhs] n. majority of opinion; general agreement.
On the one side we have Bert Sugar, Boxrec, Buddy McGirt, Freddie Roach, George Foreman, Lou Duva, Gilbert Odd, Kevin Rooney, BBC, ESPN, Nat Flesicher, Nat Loubet, Charley Rose, Steve Farhood, Manny Steward and Mrs Perryrice herself agreeing Frazier, Foreman and Liston are not all top 10. And in the other corner we have...some people on an internet forum and Bleacher Report. Hmm, I wonder which one is the consensus.
Less than 9% of Ali's wins were against those three. That means the other 91% of his wins were against such legends as Wepner, Hunsaker, Leon, Warner, Lavorante, Miteff, Mildenberger, Cooper, London, Dunn, Coopman, Blin, Robinson, Mathis, Evangelista, Chuvalo, Lubbers, Banks, Johnson, Sabedong, Besmanoff, Esperti, Powell, Logan, Fleeman and Siler, who had over 300 career losses between them. Hmm, I wonder which contributed more to his 92% win rate.
@FlaviusConstantius So,according to U,Ali had an astronomical Win Rate against fighters good enough to become Undisputed HW Champions of the World- almost 9% of his victories were against this high standard of competetion,eh? Yes! Thanks for providing,as U always unwittingly do,info that validates Ali's claim as GOAT.(Ali really should pay U). U left out the HOF fighters he fought. & refresh my memory:Your Fixed-Fight-Sam beat exactly how many Undisputed HW Champs? 0, eh? Ali should pay U big $.
@MrPerryrice Your stupidity is astronomical. 9% is not. 91% is. 9 small. 91 big. Understand yet? And guess what? 10% of Marciano's wins were against undisputed champs, Louis 11%. Lewis 10%, Jeffries 21%, Holyfield 18%. Really, every time you type you damn your greatest even more. Lest we forget, by your original criteria for greatness, Ali isn't even one of the top 20 HWs of all time. I note you've quietly dropped that idea.
@FlaviusConstantius Mrs.FlaviusCuntius LeFemme: don't muddy the water ducking the issue between Sam Langford vs Ali as GOAT. Ali's 9% is indeed astronomical compared to Fixed-Fight-N-Carried Sam Langford's 0% win rate against anybody that became Undisputed HW Champion.Ali's 9% even includes victories over 2 indestructables when they were considered indestructable Champions Liston&Foreman (Marciano,Louis,Lewis,Jeffries nor Holyfield did that) & Fraziers head 2 times for good measure. Ali is #1.
Top 10 listed by whom? Have you been reading Bleacher Report again? As I told you before, Mrs Perryrice, a top 10 is just an opinion. Do you think every expert has the same top 10? Fleischer didn't have any of them in his top 10. Nor did Charley Rose. Nat Loubet didn't have Liston or Foreman. Bert Sugar doesn't have Liston. BBC and ESPN polls omitted Frazier and Liston. Boxrec omits Frazier, Foreman and Liston. And you already said you don't rate Frazier top 10.
@FlaviusConstantius We've visited this before & I gave U 4 lists that did;most lists do.Dredging up a relative few that don't don't help your case when U discounted Sugar as an expert already;now suddenly he's one? Be consistent won't U? &don't regurgitate same answered questions like you're senile(U criticized Sugar for regurgitating). By consensus of professional & fan opinion Foreman/Frazier/Liston are top 10 HW Champs OAT;& Ali beat them all-& all would beat fixed fight Sam as J.Johnson did.
@MrPerryrice Consensus of who, Mrs Perryrice? 4 lists? I just named 8 for a start, including your own. You're arguing for Frazier as a consensus top 10 HW even though, according to you, he isn't top 10 worthy. No wonder you always seem confused. Do you know what day it is? Sugar is the type of person you cite as part of this supposed consensus. If I can name that many who don't agree with you then it's not much of a consensus. If anything, the consensus is the opposite.
@FlaviusConstantius Consensus of experts & fans alike, Mrs. FlaviusCuntius LeFemme,that's who. I see Liston/Frazier/Foreman on more lists than not, all over the place: Ring Mags,Dundee's,George Foreman's,Boxing Asylum's, ESB Forum's, Share Ranks', to pundits Scott9945/Jim Jeffries'/ to Great John L's lists, it can go on forever. Your lists are minority opinions, not consensus. Ali defeated 3 top ten list greats (5x); neither my opinion nor yours can change that. Face facts Mrs. FlaviusCuntius.
@MrPerryrice Add Buddy McGirt, Freddie Roach, Lou Duva, Gilbert Odd, Kevin Rooney, Steve Farhood and Manny Steward to those who also don't have all 3 in their top 10. And Foreman doesn't rate himself in the top 10, so you're wrong there too. You see, Mrs Perryrice, I can cite actual known boxing trainers and historians. Scott9945? The Great John L? How about naming some actual known pundits and historians instead of posters on some internet forum. The consensus is even more in my favor now.
@FlaviusConstantius But even their lists have at least 2 of them, eh? How many of them list 2 fighters Fixed-Fight-Sam beat? 0 eh? Sam's competition, nor anybody else's, even ranks with Ali's. Thanks for letting us all know that, Mrs FlaviusLeFemme. I GOOGLED Foreman's Top 10, he ranks himself/Ali/Liston/Holmes & Frazier all as Top 10s. Why lie on him- it don't help U? I named Pros,Pundits,& everyday fans who all agree the 3 are Top 10s. U have & always will lose arguing against the GOAT.
@MrPerryrice Have a nice Christmas, Mrs Perryrice? By the look of it you spent most of the last 2 days talking to yourself on here, lol. No wonder Mrs Le Femme dumped you and ran off with the milkman. BTW Foreman's top 10 is on his personal website. He specifically excludes himself from the list.
@FlaviusConstantius Yes, it was nice, thank you; even spent time talking to U Mrs FlaviusCuntius LeFemme, but you didn’t answer back; yes, I did notice U dumped me for the milkman; only proves how skanky U are. But alas, U are back now, right? Shyt! gotta admit U were right about something small- George Foreman doesn’t list himself as a top 10 after all. Doesn’t mean he’s not one though; & he’s named so often by others he doesn’t have to name himself.
Good to know you spent your Christmas day on Youtube fantasizing about me. Me, I had a life to lead. No wonder Mrs LeFemme left you for a real man (any man?). I hope she found one who knows what a simile is. And what's that, backtracking again? So your consensus is now even smaller still. George also only rates Ali at #4 so add him to that list too.
@FlaviusConstantius So Uonly have a life to lead on Christmas Day? That's when they let U out of the old folk's home? Cuz U definitely spend all your other days in futility hating Ali on YouTube. Some life you got there. Add George to what list? The one that has Frazier, Liston & Ali as top 10 all time greats? I already have, plus if he names Frazier, a lesser fighter than himself as top 10, you know he feels he is there too. He's just being modest; plus he does have a little grudge against Ali.
Either they're all greater than Ali, or win % is a daft way of judging fighters. You decide.
You act as if everyone Ali beat was an ATG. Liston, Foreman and Frazier were only 6 of his 61 fights. The rest were assuredly not against guys of extremely high quality. Some were good, some not so good and some downright awful. Lots of fights against Evangelista and Wepner level fighters upped his win % considerably.
@FlaviusConstantius Senile Old Fool, wasting your last days with silly arguments that never work against Ali. U have to accept reality: Ali's win percentage weighs far more than those other fighters cuz his includes victories over 3 of the top 10 listed Greatest HW Champions of all time, he is 5-1 against Liston, Foreman, Frazier, nobody else has reached those heights. Ali's 3 opponents would beat the crap outta all those guys you named; then they'd have Corrupt N Carried Sam's Crew as snacks.
@MrPerryrice How can Ali be the GOAT when he doesn't even have one of the top 15 win %s in heavyweight history? Even Valuev and Brian Nielsen are ahead of him!
@FlaviusConstantius Nope. I said “The hoopla is about a 92% win rate;shaking the world up 2 times;being the most exciting,fastest,most intelligent & entertaining Undisputed HW Champ OAT; for being at different times,in different fights in his career, able to outslug sluggers,fight inside,outside,on his toes,backwards,forewards,out box boxers,throw every punch in the book,score knockouts with left hooks;& beat top 10 list HOF great George Foreman in the infighting.” That's it Mrs Flavius LeFemme.
@MrPerryrice Why would there be hoopla about a win rate that isn't even in the top 15 among HWs, Mrs Perryrice? Everything else is just empty platitudes that you've clearly cut and pasted from somewhere. Name an example of each of those things listed.
PS. Calling me Mrs, now Mrs Perryrice? Once again, I can make you say whatever I want you to say, because all you can do is copy me. That's how weak minded and stupid you are. Now say snuffluphagus again. Or pumblechook. LOL
@FlaviusConstantius It's not just about a win rate, Mrs Flavius LeFemme, it's the level of competition defeated to get it,which nobody else has accomplished- Ali has 5 victories against 3 of the top ten lists all time greatest heavyweights. Ha ha ha! There's nothing Ucan say to ever deminish that. Spend your last days suffering in senility trying in futility all Uwant. See how I tricked U into admitting Uwant to be called a Mrs? (I knew Uwere gay all along).Don't worry,I'll call U Mrs all Uwant.
@MrPerryrice What's that Mrs Perryrice, you're gay as well and you want me to pretend to be Mrs LeFemme? No I won't, Mrs Perryrice. Don't try to lure me into your weird sexual perversions. That's why she left you in the first place. You have to let go. She left you for a real man and she won't be be coming back.
@FlaviusConstantius Gay as well as who? Obviously U. but sorry, even though U admit to being gay, I don't, and am not. Sorry that disappoints you, but I am not the only man you cannot have. So stick with your husband, Mrs Flavius LeFemme, he is the man you married after all; don't be a scank. Don't try to lie now; U admitted you contrived to have me call U by what U are: "Calling me Mrs, now Mrs Perryrice? Once again, I can make you say whatever I want you to say." See? U want me to call U Mrs.
hate tyson ,but who did ali fight that was even close to a prime tyson ,if they were both 21 22 tyson would have taken alis head off ,frazier was similar to tyson ,but no where near as quick ,ali was certainly not hard to hit but had a granite chin,but its the ones you dont see that knock you out,foreman was powerful but so incredibly limited,tyson was quick and powerful,i think we may never know how good some of tysons opponents could have been as he blew them away,ali was not as lethal
@chromeheart65 Tyson does not belong in a GOAT conversation because he was incredibly limited even in his prime. I would match George and Sonny Liston against Tyson any day and bet on them to beat him. Tyson couldn't fight backing up and he'd have to against George. Ali showed us certain shyt: he's not getting KOd. Ali's head (KO) was never taken off- Tyson's was, even in his prime. Tyson Prime couldn't take Tucker's head off (among others), but he could knock Ali out? Pure dreaming my friend.
@MrPerryrice Ali was knocked out by 185lb Henry Cooper and needed extra time to recover. Ali was wincing from Karl Mildenberger's body shots, staggered and outboxed by 188lb Doug Jones, went life and death with George Chuvalo. Sub in Tyson for any of those and it ain't hard to see that Tyson wins. 6-5 230lb 35-0 Tony Tucker would beat Cooper, Jones, Chuvalo and Mildenberger without breaking sweat. 22 y/o Tyson would send 22 y/o Ali's head into the second row.
The reason Mrs Perryrice gets so angry is she knows I'm right and can't refute anything I say. Her case for Ali being the GOAT simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The absurd 'Ali is the GOAT because he had a 92% win rate' comment is merely the latest example. Poor Mrs P doesn't even realize I just refuted yet another of her claims. Truly a ridiculous old woman of limited means and unlimited infirmity. Hopefully she'll now tell us all about the time Jimmy Young knocked out George Foreman. LOL
@FlaviusConstantius Confused Old Senile Dunce,babbling deliriously in his last days; can't even tell men from women anymore; no wonder he can't accept boxing reality as it is: No subject in boxing has withstood more scrutiny - Ali by consensus is GOAT. Sorry,but that's it. The Senile Dunce had 2 months to prove it wrong,now mad at me cuz he couldn't; I made him look foolish along the way. He said he used to think Ali was GOAT too, now he spends his last days disoriented,embittered babbling lies.
You aren't a man Mrs Perryrice. You have no cojones for a start. Do you think if Ali turned pro in 1900 as a novice 16 y/o, had a 25 year career and 320 bouts, 60 vs HOFers alone, fought 15x a year, often every few weeks, faced Foreman 20x, Frazier 15x and Norton 10x, gave up at least 6" in height and 20lbs in weight in half his fights, carried on fighting into his 40s when he was virtually blind and not had any NOI, biased officials or a cheerleading media to help him, he'd have a 92% win rate?
@FlaviusConstantius Poor Confused Senile Old Dunce,I can tell you married a man, & most assuredly he has the cojones in the relationship,not you. That's why you even started this gay talk of yours. Futile, "IF" shyt again? Tough! If's don't count. Reality does and Ali is by consensus GOAT. "If" scenarios are argued cuz U have nothing real. Good. Glad U revealed what you are expert at since it's not boxing - other men's cojones,eh? Can't keep 'em out your mouth,er,conversation,eh? Ali's GOAT.
@FlaviusConstantius Since you flavor your comments with so much gay talk, you obviously are gay, and have married a man whose cojones are the only ones in your marriage with him. And since male genetalia are always coming out your mouth in your conversations they must have first went in- and explains why you are an expert at other mens cojones, & no expert at boxing. And Ali remains GOAT by consensus of fan and expert opinion alike; nothing U, Mrs.Flavius LeFemme can do about it. Understand?
@breastmilkgaysexs A very accurate, fair, insightful and credible description of Ali and this loon Flavious. Every argument he raises against Ali applies even more agaainst Ali's opponents-but he's too hypocrital & unfair to acknowledge it (probably cuz he's foolish). Why would he tell you 99% of people believed the world was flat then instantly list a bunch of Ali critics as though it does not pertain to them? Stupid.
@MrPerryrice. I haven't read all of your comments (it might take days to finish :p) but I essentially agree with you on most of what you've said if I interpret it correctly. Ali most definitely a legend, joy, master, genius, and a great if not the greatest boxer of all time! He and Mike Tyson...both completely different fighters in almost every way and from different eras so I can't choose one over the other. Anyways, good day to you and your friend "FlaviusConstantius" :).
he rose to the occasion and met those demands, and then some...every...single...time...for decades. Add to that his showmanship, the way he electrified every crowd, his running his mouth but then living up to every word, predicting many many rounds, etc., and we've got a one of a kind champion, the kind who the world will ever only see once, and I'm grateful to live in an age where I can at least witness it on video. I can't imagine what it would've been like to be at an Ali fight, but I can
Anyways, I don't mean to offend, I'm just really straightforward and passionate on the subject. Ali was a genius and a master boxer, and off the charts great in about every way possible--skill, intelligence, guts, overcoming any opposition that stood in his way, pain tolerance, etc. He was a true champion who never once crumpled under pressure, and when a championship fight demanded any particular degree of excellence and performance level if you will, in order to win,
The whole boxing world at least recognizes and respects Ali's magnificent abilities and victories, and that he is up there with the greats, if not the greatest. Was every fight called perfectly fair? Maybe not, but if they were scored perfectly fair, at most he'd have maybe one or two more losses on his record, or maybe another win or two. And for those who are in the 1% usually are either jealous Ali-haters or just simply don't understand the art and sport of boxing.
@FlaviusConstantius. Somehow I just got caught up going down reading your and your friend "mrperryrice"'s exchange of comments for a few pages lol, but I've just gotta say that the way you've been describing Muhammad Ali just goes to show with 100% certainty that you know nothing about and have no credibility in any of your comments that have to do with boxing. No offense good sir. But I'm pretty sure 99% of the world would agree, and that's including those who don't even rank him as GOAT.
@breastmilkgaysexs 99% of people used to think the sun revolves around the earth too. The intellectual forebears of the Ali fanbase. Cut through the hyperbole and Ali was a fairly limited fighter who a lot of stinkers and got a lot of breaks from officials, but was made into a god by the anti-Vietnam crowd. BTW, Nat Fleischer, Gene Tunney, Larry Holmes, Charley Rose, Red Smith, Manny Seamon and Eddie Futch agree Ali was overrated and they knew a thing or two about boxing.
@FlaviusConstantius This proves how hypocritical your arguments always are. First U start off claiming people don't know what they are talking about then follow it up claiming they do by listing what a bunch of Ali critics said.Why don't U tell us how many times Ali proved those guys wrong in guaging his skills? They picked Liston,Ali proved them wrong; they picked Foreman,Ali proved them wrong. Meaning they know nothing about accurately assessing Ali's skill and abilities. Think for yourself!
PS. Best not to talk about things you don't understand, like boxing, grammatical terms, the alphabet, or anything really. For your benefit, "Carnera broke his ankle & Vitali broke his rotator cuff; no damn difference" is not a simile. A simile is a figure of speech used to draw a comparison between two unrelated entities or scenarios, almost poetically; ie you are slower than a 150 year old tortoise with arthritis. Here endeth today's lesson.
@FlaviusConstantius That's what mines does. I watched these old Langford/Mcvey/Battling Jim Johnson/Jennette (at least learn to spell Jennette's family name righ,there's no "a"),they are motionless,1 punch at a time,holding artists as usual; but I saw Jack Johnson/Flynn-Whoa! Finally a flatfooted, moving Ali he is! Jab, backpeddling,circling,jab,jab,clinch against the ropes, sidestep, right hand,flurries, left hook backing up,clinch breaking up the exchange! Whoa! That's a boxer! No dumb brute!
@FlaviusConstantius Your post only makes sense if win rate alone was my criteria for greatness. I've spent 2 months arguing otherwise, so your post is completely dishonest and simplified. I merely pointed out that Ali's win rate was higher than your candidate Sam Langford, Jennette's and those old timers. Ali rates extremely high in the quality of opponent defeated categorie- Marciano,Vitali,Wlad, & Johansson don't even belong in the argument.
No. This is 2 months of you making a fool of yourself again and again and again. Saying Carnera finished his fight vs Baer is the latest, after claiming Wepner was only decked by Ali, Foreman didn't have 5 straight KOs after Zaire, Young KOd Foreman, Ali had Parkinsons in 70, Young dying before Ali shows Ali was better, Ali caused Frazier's kidney infection and Williams' multiple serious injuries don't matter because he passed his medical. And you get your all-time rankings from Bleacher Report.
Look at Norton's foul play in round 6. There has never been anything worse in boxing. Ali is holding him a bay with a fully extended left and Norton is clearly trying to damage Ali's joint by trying to hook and uppercut the elbow. This would have hyperextended the joint, disabling the arm and could have easily caused permanent damage. Norton knew what he was doing. Ali knew too. Why the ref didn't disqualify Norton is a mystery to me.
Dunce is oblivious to what's right there in front of him. He doesn't see Sam neutralizing Jeannette's jab. Dunce doesn't know what neutralizing a jab means. Dunce doesn't know what cutting the ring, infighting or an effective defense is. Dunce sees everything from an Ali's worshiper's perspective. If a boxer shows more skills than Ali possessed, he's too stupid to notice. That's why he thinks body punches don't score points but standing between rounds does. That's how dense dunce is.
@FlaviusConstantius The Senile Dunce's hallucinations: Jennette had a jab worthy of neutralizing; motionless Jennette(toe to toe) moved enough to be cut off; holding & hitting wasn't Jennette/Langford's infinghting; holding & hitting wasn't both their defenses(& offenses); that his sight is not warped by senility, cateracs & anti-Ali hate; dumb club fighters are more skilled than Ali. & he's stupid enough to think I said body punches don't score but standing between rounds does. Cuz he's Senile
Where's the Greatest? If Ali was the GOAT he wouldn't have been beat up by Frazier in the biggest fight of his career, nearly KOd by 185lb Cooper, needed crappy TKOs in fights he was struggling in (Banks, Logan, Bonavena, Lyle), gift decisions in fights he clearly lost (Norton II & III, Jones, Shavers, Young), opponents taking dives (Liston, Folley), had his best performance against a literally shot opponent, quit on his stool vs Holmes and wouldn't have lost his title to a glass jawed novice.
Rd 2, Ali stands and leans against Wepner, now lies on the ropes as Wepner hits him, now leans against him, now they trade rabbit punches, bitches to the ref again, Ali finally throws a punch, which misses, now they're hugging again, Ali gets hit with a right, he grabs Wepner's neck again, and again, Ali throws a jab, which misses, now he's on the ropes getting hit. Now the crowd are booing. Now they're clinching, Ali grabs his neck again. This is your 'Greatest'?
@FlaviusConstantius Jokes,eh? All Ugot against Ali? U didn't describe the 108 or so stitches Ali put in Wepner's face? Or Ali outta shape but still administering a steady beating to Wepner's bloody, cut face in rounds 9-15, ending with 2 pretty combinations then a right hand that sent Wepner to the canvass for the only time in his career, & TKOing him. Yes, GOAT, old, fat, outta shape when even U admitted he was showing signs of Parkinsons. Whoa!! Check out that movement as the beating went on.
Hmm, in one corner we have a 6ft7, 250lb boxer puncher who has has a high KO%, has never been KD'd, never behind in a fight, rarely loses a round and whose only losses have been to freak injuries. In the other we have a 6ft3 210lber who doesn't hit hard, never beat someone Vitali's size, was nearly KO'd by 185lb Cooper, needed a gift to beat 188lb Jones, went life and death with mediocre Chuvalo and struggled to beat Mildenberger. Only one logical winner here dunce, and it ain't Ali.
@FlaviusConstantius In this corner:6’7”Primo Cornera,never KOd then KOd by 6’2” Max Baer.Vitali got punched in the eye cutting it open-no a freak injury,it’s Lennox banging & TKOing him.U said TKOs count as KO's didn't U dunce? Now when Vitali's TKOd U backtrack & say his don't count as KO? & his shoulder only proves he is not a superman after all,plus he cuts so why couldn't Ali cut him? Foreman never was KOd either til Ali did it. The only freak would be a 6'7" Undisputed World HW Champion.
@MrPerryrice Bad example, dunce. Carnera broke his ankle in that fight, Baer hit much harder than Ali and Baer fouled constantly. I said Vitali's never been KD'd (knocked down), not never TKO'd. Try to pay attention. Vitali has had one serious cut in 45 fights. Against Byrd he tore his rotator cuff after winning every round. Those are freak injuries and a fluke is Ali's only chance of winning cos he sure ain't knocking Vitali out and he ain't outboxing him either.
@FlaviusConstantius Excellent example Stupid. Carnera broke his ankle & Vitali broke his rotator cuff; no damn difference. So he was never KD'd? Getting TKO'd twice is even worse U idiot. Nothing freak about his 2 TKO's; it shows he is vulnerable to TKO's, damn near for any reason. Fighting Ali he'd tear the rotator and get cut in the same fight; TKO for sure.Vitali,cut or not, was slowing down & caving in to Lennox even before the stoppage.Clearly on way to being TKOd or KOd by Lennox for sure.
@MrPerryrice Dunce can't tell the difference between a rotator cuff and an ankle. Dunce is still trying to chew his soup. LOL Glad you agree with me that a fluke injury for Vitali is Ali's only chance of winning. Ali has been dropped and hurt by lighter punchers than Vitali, outboxed by less formidable boxers than Vitali, never beat anyone Vitali's size. Vitali's never behind in a fight, rarely loses a round, never dropped or hurt and has a 90% KO rate. Vitali wins. Pretty easily.
@FlaviusConstantius Idiot can't comprehend a "simile",like boxing,it's over his old head; he's choking not chewing his meat & vegetable soup.Glad U agree Vitali'd get TKOd on cuts &torn rotator cuff against Ali. Ali has been hit by & survived,then KOd greater punchers than Vitali-he's been TKO'd 2xs by lesser boxers than Ali; Vitali's never beat but lost to the only fighter he fought comparable in skills to Ali. Never behind meant nothing when he got TKOd 2x. Ali shakes up the world again.
Norton made a mistake to cruise in that last round. Ali out boxed him for most of the round and it cost Norton. Ali won, by very thin margin but Ali did win.
vladiator100 6 days ago
Hats off to Ali for a well fought bout, but Norton beat him. Again.
And people wonder why boxing's given way to cage matches.
willsclassic 1 week ago
All Ali's wins by decision or even TKO are and will always be disputed by some haters that are numerous in You Tube. Even KO victories like vs Foreman in 1974 are lol
Brandovski1 4 weeks ago
no doubt who won the fight....ali is the best of all....its honor for norton to have a chance to fight ALI
besomiri2010 1 month ago
GodLiberty 1 month ago
@MrPerryrice Also, it wouldn't be "refs", it would be ref. There is only one referee in boxing. On that note, there is a reason why they don't let the referee judge the match anymore. But you didn't know any of that did you? You see, you don't bother with "facts" or any of that nonsense. As for me being a hater; I don't hate Ali, I like the boxer. He was pretty good. The legend never existed though. The legend was sold to you, and you bought it up. Warped judgment? Take a look in the mirror.
spman2099 1 month ago
@MrPerryrice Well, there are plenty examples of the judges giving VERY bad decisions. Decisions that are criticized years after the fight. Would you like an example? Well it is a pretty common belief among boxing reporters and historians that the third Ali/Norton fight was among the worst decisions of all time. But don't bother concerning yourself with this; boxing fans are interested is discussing boxing facts, Ali fans want to worship a legend that never really existed.
spman2099 1 month ago
I saw this fight live , Norton should have been given the Title!
redemp1234tion 1 month ago
poor norton. fuckin mugged.
Robstailey 1 month ago
Ali did win this fight, It was a close fight but Ali did pull it off no doubt.
324582782 1 month ago
@324582782 If there was no doubt then people wouldn't still mention what a horrible decision it was to this day. The fact that people question it, despite the fact that Ali was involved, really shows how bad the judgement was. No one wants to question Ali, everyone wants to believe he was invincible. However, this is a black eye on his resume. Truth is, Ali couldn't handle Norton, he was never able to figure him out. The second fight was also VERY close and could have gone to Norton...
spman2099 1 month ago
@spman2099 I think you're in denial. These announcers are obviously biased. Whenever Ali peppers Norton with the jab and stunts his offense it doesn't count? Norton honestly cannot win rounds based on 1-2 big power shots. Norton was not as active as he should have been. Ali did land alot of jabs and he did make Norton look wild and miss at times. Norton did have defining moments but whenever Ali danced or attacked he was not effective. Only when Ali was on the ropes did Norton back him good.
musood6630 1 month ago
@spman2099 To be honest I can name you many close fights where people didn't like the decision. The most recent example is pacquiao vs marquez 3, The fight was close no doubt but in the end pacquiao pulled it off yet people didn't like it. And they go around saying marquez is robbed but in truth marquez lost the fight fair n square. I think a lot of people watch boxing and follow what commentators say. I had Ali winning this fight, a really close one but he pulled it off.
324582782 1 month ago
@spman2099 People don't know how to score, Alot of them think that marquez beat pacquiao but the fact is that pacquiao beat him even though it was a close fight. Just like that people wanted Norton ( an under dog ) to win the fight. When they see that its a close fight they wanted their man to win but norton lost. Doesn't mean norton won.
324582782 2 weeks ago
Just watch the fight,& observe both fighters & pay special attention to where Norton's most powerful & most numerous body blows land -on Ali's gloves,arms, elbows, shoulders, even his hips & otherwise below the belt- sorry, don't count a single one of those cuz they were low or blocked & therefore don't count; so just count the blows Norton had left & U will see Ali scored more shots that count than Norton did, thus, Ali won, regardless of how powerful Norton's blocked and missed punches were.
MrPerryrice 1 month ago
@MrPerryrice You really only see what you want to see, don't you. This is delusional, you are delusional. Why not focus on the fights Ali DID win and stop trying to defend what was most certainly a terrible decision?
spman2099 1 month ago
This is one of the closest fights ever. Everytime I see it I get a new disicion. But I do think people get a bit too ecited when Norton is attacking. He hits Ali to the body alot of times, but Ali is blocking alot of the punches. Ali is in my view the clear winner of round 15, eventhough Norton tries to steal the round in the last 15-20 seconds - but thats just not enough to win the round. My verdict: 8-6-1 Ali
bokseeksperten 1 month ago
and if Norton would have won that fight, this doesnt make him a better boxer than Ali,
because ali knocked those out who destroyed Norton, additional to this, ali was out of his prime in that fight,the parkinson disease had began to slow ali down, therfore he got hit from the big shots of norton, even though ali was able to avoid them,
The doctor of ali recommended him to retire after that fight but ali didnt listen
Schehit 1 month ago
as you can see, 2 of 3 judges agree that ali won because ali won one round more than norton, only one says ali won 2 rounds more than norton,
What would have happened if Norton had won that fight? al least Earnie Shavers or Larry Holmes would have knocked norton out,and they did, Norton wouldnt have been a Heavyweight Champion for a long time
so afterwars i think it was a good decision to give ali that fight,
Schehit 1 month ago
i ´ve seen the whole fight from first round to 15th and in my opinion it was a draw till the end of the 10th round, if you listened to the comentators and the judges scorecards they all agree that its a draw till the end of the 10th round, and in my opinion i agree with them,
so if you wanna know who has won in this fight then beginn to watch it from the 10 th round,
doesnt matter which round you will give ali but ali won 3 rounds and norton 2 rounds after the 10th
Schehit 1 month ago
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Fighters like Norton couldn't have great success at all compared to those of Ali's class. Well, I see and anybody can see like me that Norton has really tremendous power in his hands, but just can't use it in an effective way according to boxing principles, which counts blows landed on one's head, not on his body. Ali is a good physical condition, and blows on his body don't affect him.
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10198101 1 month ago
Good fight, but I almost think people get too into Norton's role of "stalker" here, as though Ali trying hard to avoid his punches means they're worth more points than they are. Ali threw more punches in this round, missed less if not equally, and landed every hit directly. It's not like Norton was really pushing him around when he did hit him. Each time Ali took a punch, tied him up to minimize the follow up body shots, and then get separated and go back to dancing.
itstheblueguy 2 months ago
Ken Norton was clearly cheated in this fight. I hate corrupted judges.
Bronsonmania 2 months ago 2
Ali was shit.
tysonfor1 2 months ago 2
@tysonfor1 lol..
tlig 2 months ago
where do you put lennox lewis?
endajsheridan 2 months ago
@endajsheridan Lennox's fight game is under rated due to people making the mistake of judging him by his poor performances when he was unprepared, uninspired or past his prime.Give me a prime,fully prepared & inspired Lennox Lewis at the top of his game,out to prove himself,& I rank him to beat every HW champion in history, except Ali who under the same conditioning I pick to barely outpoint him. I like Ali,Lennox, Holmes, Jack Johnson, 1950s Liston,Foreman,Holyfield & Joe Louis in that order...
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
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endajsheridan 3 weeks ago
remember jesse owen would have only beaten flo jo , the female sprinter from the 80s by a few feet. The further one looks back in sports the worse they get .
Power , conditioning , nutrition, etc.
If one was to pick the 10 best heavyweight performances , ie technically the hardest to beat on that night for the other fighter.
Riddick Bowe would probably be there, Lennox Lewis would be very high ( maybe number 1) . klitschkos brothers would probably make the list.
endajsheridan 3 weeks ago
@endajsheridan
first i have to say , I dont really like Vitali or Lennox lewis , But you must consider that big men who aren t clumsy or weak with very good skills can beat smaller heavyweights from other eras , This is a good example , Sugar Ray probably would have lost to Archie Moore , Do you agree ? In terms of pounds etc Archie had about 15-20 on Sugar. Sugar was taller or the same. So a man who simply is bit , could beat the best boxer of all time? Size matters in boxing .
endajsheridan 3 weeks ago
...and with a lot of reservations &soul searching, I'll gamble on Mike Tyson 9th, & Joe Frazier 10th. I must say both moved up to a top 10 on my list only after recent study of the fights, and picking my top 8, I realized I'd seen no fighter left good enough to beat them. So, after arguing these previous months against them as top 10, careful study has made me eat those words. Frazier's 10th on my list. Lennox Lewis 2nd, Ali 1st; I pick Ali to find a way to upset anybody in history.
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
endajsheridan You are right, I forgot Riddick for whipping up on Holy; but I'm not impressed with who the Klitschkos beat. That's why I didn't name them.
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
@MrPerryrice
Imagine a tournament were these guys best preformance is put against lets say each lineal Champion since Jack Johnson.Who would come out the best .
I would be interested in that list .Because when you look at boxing that way , you start to actually ask the question , who was the best.Example Joe louis probably would get knocked out by Vitali .Look at the best heavyweights of all time Louis is probably in the top 3 .
endajsheridan 3 weeks ago
@endajsheridan In such a tournament I pick the 1966 Ali vs Cleaveland Williams, & the 1974 versions of Ali vs Frazier (to at the least),outpoint any HW in history. Tho Cleve was pastprime,Ali's skill level,size,strength,& accuracy was so superior a mismatch for him,that not even a prime Williams could have made it a match. In this fight Ali was 25,had gotten bigger,gaining hitting power,sharpening his elusiveness,& was not yet beat down by the political & prison turmoil distracting him in his...
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
...last 1960s bout where he was living in hell. The 1971 Frazier who caught up to 1971 Ali all those times...wouldn't have caught the Ali Cleveland Williams faced in 1966 half as much.It's unimaginable that Joe could've escaped a decision loss to 1966 Ali, when he barely escaped the 71 version of Ali who was immensely more hittable. And the 1974 Ali that Joe couldn't lay a glove on, and almost decked by, wouldn't have been caught by anybody in history either. 66 & 74 Ali outpoints everybody.
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
@MrPerryrice
Sprinters have a clock to prove their greatness.I think modern heavyweights are getting a ripped off regarding how they would do against the "best in history".
endajsheridan 3 weeks ago
@endajsheridan Very interesting point you're making with the clock. Too bad we don't have a counterpart to measure our boxers with. The lineal thing is how I came up with my list (oops for forgetting Bowe who easily replaces Frazier &Tyson in my view); I'm unable to rank Vitali as a top 10 because in his best performance he lost to Lennox, not only that but also got terribly wounded necessitating a TKO ruling against him. I don't think this eras HWs are underrated. Maybe the next generation...
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
...of HWs we see will be more talented than the ones from the 1960s thru 2000, but the present one certainly hasn't.
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
No one cares what a bunch of randoms on a forum think and in any case, you only handpicked ones who agree with you.
Of the 25 or so lists I named, 16 excluded Liston from their top 10, 13 excluded Frazier and 14 excluded Foreman. 15 did not have Ali at #1. That's not a consensus. You just have to deal with the fact that a lot of boxing people disagree with you. Insulting anyone who isn't a myopic Ali cheerleader just makes you look stupid and childish and it won't change reality.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
Maybe some imaginary consensus in your head. Here on earth, based on all the fighters/historians etc listed, there is no consensus for them being top 10. That's just your opinion and frankly no one cares about the opinion of a moron who reads Bleacher Report and thinks Joe Frazier is "scum". The only reason you think they're great is because Ali beat them. Hey, if Ali's the GOAT, then everyone he beat must have been great too, right. Do you have Chuck Wepner in your top 10 as well?
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Nope,It's fact,even by the lists U named (excluding the discredited/ridiculous one by Nat Fleischer)Liston,Frazier & Foreman appear more often than not among the 10 Greatest Heavyweight Champions. U want to discredit them all just cuz Ali beat them;but sorry,there are not 10 HW Champs names appearing more often than theirs- that's by consensus. Nope,they are great cuz of their fighting ability,not just cuz Ali beat them;U sing Wepner's praises,not me. Stop reading Fleischer.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
And finally, Frazier, Foreman, Liston; one flukish win, a dull controversial decision, two fakes and only one good fight that he tried to quit in twice. Hardly GOAT material. And most importantly, none of them were anywhere their best when Ali beat them. The Liston fights were fakes, Frazier was shot and had eye/diabetes/HBP issues, Foreman was in poor physical/mental shape and Ali ducked the rematch. May as well say Leon was great for beating the 1978 Ali.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Glad to see U back to the whinny excuses again. Don’t help cuz Ali still TKO’d the indestructible Liston 2xs (No evidence either was fake-Liston just saw he couldn’t beat Ali & quit both times); Ali still boxed Frazier to a UD then made him quit like Liston did; & KOd his second indestructible Champion Foreman & took his title; he still gets most votes for GOAT. So make all the sore loser excuses U want, Ali’s legacy is engraved all over the boxing world forever.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
It's funny seeing you foaming at the mouth over Langford while dismissing fixed fights your hero was in. The Liston fights were fake. One of the meanest toughest HWs in history get's KOd by a punch that wouldn't have knocked you over? A guy who lasted the distance with a broken jaw quits in an even fight after 6 uneventful rounds with a 'sore shoulder'? No thank you. And that's before you even consider Sonny's mob ties and the NOI.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius U gave proof Langfords were fixed & he agreed to them;& unproven conspiracy theory against Sonny (not Ali). All we know is Sonny quit both times,the first cuz Ali beat him up& he couldn’t catch Ali (nobody but U think it was even);the second time cuz he was gonna get beat up again.No evidence to the contrary exists. Plus,make your mind up about Sonny: First he was a washed up 1950s fighter when Ali got to him,now he’s “one of the meanest,toughest HW in history” against Ali?
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
As a matter of interest , what would your top ten be.If you had to pick them on the basis ,that they are at their best and they have to fight a random great heavyweight tonight.Just one caution , consider the flying finn , the runner who won several Olympics gold medals years ago.If he ran today , he would be lapped.My point is the recent larger heavyweights with superb conditioning , nutrition etc would do better than most people would think.
endajsheridan 3 weeks ago
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MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
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@endajsheridan Flat out I say Ali,Lennox Lewis,Holmes,Jack Johnson, Riddick Bowe, 1950s Liston,Foreman,Holyfield, are the eight I pick to KO or outpoint the best big Heavyweights of today (Klitschko included); and with less confidence I'd gamble on Joe Louis,& Mike Tyson beating them too. That's my 10 GOATs. Neither the lineal nor the size & conditioning advantage you give the modern HWs is any substitute for the innate skill & ability to fight through punishment,absorb a beating without...
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
...anything cutting or breaking on you, & able to finish even if it does; heart enough to overcome adversity, fight through exhaustion, rise from the canvass to win a war of attrition; rally & score a last minute flurry, TKO, or knockout when you are behind and seemingly had nothing left. Then the skills, smarts & ability to avoid the damage in the first place. Modern HWs lag behind in all these categories. Plus, if the lineal argument held water Cooney would have beaten Larry Holmes. Also, I...
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
... I have a problem with you comparing the obvious lineal trend in the less complicated & less complex sport of footracing,with boxing which involves/requires far more variables/talents and skill in many more areas than a simple foot race. Aside from brute strength for speed,& conditioning for endurance,knowing when to accelerate,how many more variables,skills,smarts/heart/ability is needed to run a few seconds? Doesn't even compare to all the variables and talents involved in boxing.
MrPerryrice 3 weeks ago
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Ali's win % is inflated by lots of wins against nonentities. His win % against Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Ellis, Terrell, Berbick, Leon, Patterson and Liston, the 10 HW champs he faced, is 70%. With the 2 gifts he got against Norton, it falls to 58%. Frazier II was a draw at best and the Liston fights were fakes (no credit for fixed fights) so his win % falls to 41%. Ellis and Patterson were blown up MWs, so his win % vs legit HWs is 28%. A much more accurate reflection of his level.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
BTW, just GOOGLED 'Scott 9945' and this is their view on Ali-Norton III: "Most people including me feel Norton won that fight, the people that thought Ali won are definitely in the minority". LOL you're the gift that keeps on giving.
Oh, and as you reckon Ali "threw every punch in the book", do name a fight where he throws a solar plexus punch. Even guys in the 1890s could do that.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Aren’t U the one that dismissed what most people think cuz they used to think the sun revolved around the earth? Now suddenly they count? The point is that “Scott 9945” had Liston, Frazier & Foreman on their list of top 10 all time greatest HW champions defeated by Ali-thanks for validating his opinion. I saw Ali threw body blows against Liston 1- didn’t you? Just watch it again and see. But 1890s guys could not defeat Liston, Frazier & Big George – Ali could & did.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
The point is 'Scott9945' is some anonymous poster on an internet forum who you've plucked out of thin air because he happens to agree with you. That's the best you can do to back you up. Well, you cling to Larry, Moe and Curly's opinion if it makes you happy. I'll stick to the consensus of trainers, fighters, historians and sportswriters. And I said solar plexus punch, not your generic body blow, and do please show the round and time where he threw these against Liston.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius No,the point was/is whether,Liston,Frazier & Foreman are by consensus of both fans & experts alike among the top 10 HW Champions OAT; & they are (even on your lists more often than not); so why piss on the fans opinion,when his is more sensible than U & your senile hero Nat Fliescher's? The consensus of most trainers,fighters,historians &writers disagree with U & Fliescher's list, so how can U claim to stick with them? Now we're arguing "solar plexus" vs "generic body blow"?
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Marty Marshall, a 180lb journeyman with a 23-13-2 career record beat Liston and busted his jaw and dropped him as well, so enough of this "indestructible" nonsense. And this was a young Liston, not an old inactive champ under threat from the mob and the NOI. If Marshall can beat Liston, then storied HOFers like Fitz, Sharkey or Jeffries definitely could.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius That Fluke! Liston a novice then,turned pro the previous year,had just 7 pro fights under his belt,Marshall a vet,made Sonny laugh & hit him when his mouth was open;Sonny still fought to a split decision with a broken jaw-(adding to his image of invincibility). Sonny KOd him in 6 rounds next time; then in 3rd fight Marshall ran for dear life, Sonny beat him easily 9 rounds to 0, 1 round even. The last 2 fights prove it was a fluke; & no Fitz,Sharkey or Jeffries beating Sonny.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Wepner was a crude 36 year old club fighter who was TKOd in 6 rounds or less by Joe Bugner, Buster Mathis, Duane Bobick, Jerry Tomasetti, Jerry Judge and a novice George Foreman. A 40+ Sonny Liston TKOd him in 10. So did someone named Horst Geisler. The same Wepner went 15 rounds with Ali, roughed him up and even knocked him flat on his back. That's the real level of your GOAT.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius So, an old, declined, diminished skilled fat 234 pound outta shape Ali, who U said was washed up in his 1974 fight with Frazier and showing signs of Parkinsons in 1975, took 15 rounds to put 108 stitches in Wepner’s face and TKO him? So Ali had enough left to do that, eh? That only adds to Ali’s greatness. His real level is not Wepner though, it’s TKOing Liston 2x; beating Frazier 2xs (once by TKO) and upsetting the world again by KOing George Forman too. Nice Resume 4 a GOAT
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
You're happy to build up Ali for beating old, fat, shot fighters but when it's Ali who's old or fat you don't want it to count. You didn't care that Cleveland Williams had multiple gunshot injuries when he fought Ali or that Frazier had HBP and a kidney infection. You also had no problem bashing Sam Langford for losses he suffered when he was old and going blind. Sorry but you can't have it both ways. That's why I count Ali's losses to Holmes, Berbick and Leon.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Can't U read? I'm crediting the old fat diminished capacity Ali for his heroics even in his Parkinson's condition.Of course I'm saying count it.& I count Ali's 5 loses so what are Utalking about? That's why U must count Sonny's 2 losses without excuse,Frazier's 2,Norton's 2,Foreman's1,Neon's1, etc who all lost to Ali without excuse. Can't have it both ways- so hell yeah, especially count Fixed Fight Sam Langfords 31 losses& 40 ridiculous draws. No excuses!
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
Uare the stupidest fackingest boxing expert I've seen. I'm watchiing these old fight films &they dont support the hoopla surrounding them. Trust me Old Senile Dunce: there's nothing in these films of the actual fights to justify their legends created by boxing writers. They simply can't move. No wonder Jack Johnson,a flat footed Ali,could dominate them as he did. 40's, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s & 2000's fighters would simply annihilate them. A 185 pounder in the 70s? Dream U stupid idiot. Ali GOAT
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
I just finished watchin the Fight of The Century, Ali Frazier 1. Oh hell; Frazier is lucky Ali ran out of gas. Ali beat the hell outta him for 10 rounds. That scum Frazier couldn't do it again tho. What a fight! Both would beat the shyt outta Fixed-Fight-Sam, Jennette, McVey, Battling Jim Johnson and the whole little assed, flat footed, no defense, no movement having crew. Whoaa! Ali's generation is second to none.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Mrs. FlaviusLeFemme! You are seriously STUPID! Imagining 5'6'', 185 pound Fixed Fight Sam Langford facing Smoking Joe Frazier? Are You Stupid for real? Of course you are; cuz you are senile. Joe Frazier would kill his ass. Imagine him against MIKE TYSON! Oh, God, save the little flat footed, no movement slugger! Tyson would demolish him. Big George would simply get arrested/executed for Murder against Fixed-Fight-Sam! Ali/Holmes/Evander/Lennox/Klitschos would be shamed to prison forever! Oh,God!
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Mrs FlaviusLeFemme: Please tell us about this expert of yours named Nat Fleischer.The same who was wrong enough to pick Sonny over Ali? I'm studying up on him now.I dare U to respond in defense of Fliescher who was always on the losing side against Ali. Tell us about your boxing expert Nat so I can reveal U are a fool. I dee double dare U...U rediculous old senile fool! Lets go! Tell us Nat Fleischer's damn credibility. Let's go!Fliescher eqauls dirt assessing Ali's ability.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Nat Fleischer founded the Ring and was boxing's foremost historian and writer for 50 years. He saw all the HW champs from Jim Jeffries onwards. Jack Johnson was a personal friend of his. He saw Ali all through his prime years, usually at ringside. Was in Rome when he won gold. Was at ringside for the Liston fakes. Was at ringside for the FOTC. But what would Nat Fleischer know about boxing? LOL
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Nat knew nothing about assessing Ali’s abilities as a fighter,nor much about anybody else’s-his ridiculous top 10 list from 1971 proves it; pre 1930s fighters are his top 5 (no Joe Louis or Ali),7 of his top 10 are White(only 3 Black boxers made his list);-shows he didn't get what he was looking at. Louis was #6 & Ali,Liston/Frazier appeared not at all. Didn’t he die senile too while still in office? No wonder you get your opinions from him; boxing passed him & U by too.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Someone who quotes Bleacher Report and anonymous posters on internet forums declares that one of boxing's premier writers/historians who saw them all from ringside "knew nothing". Classic Perryrice. Right up there with 'Jimmy Young knocked out George Foreman' and 'Ali was the only one to deck Wepner'.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius U are an “anonymous poster” on internet forums yourself, so it’s self mutilation for U to bash what U are; you are no better than them. Bleacher Report has credible, knowledgeable articles and writers, just as many others do. & most sources, even those U named prove your Hero Worship of Nat Fleischer’s opinions of fighters’ abilities & rankings unworthy of serious consideration. Old senile Nat’s top 10 Rankings, absent Ali, is less credible than anything in Bleacher Report.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Merry Chrismass to everyone.& I invite Uto follow the conversation.I entered it with this FlaviusContantius to hear him(I found out later "her")produce the evidence that exists that Ali is not the greatest contestant for the Crown Of All Time Greatest Heavyweight Champion.The fool tried for over 2 months,but as Ucan see, failed to produce anything credible that produces,substantiates,enthrones anyone with better credentials than those put up by Ali. Therefore,I may end it here most victoriously.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Mrs FlaviusCuntius: In God's name please explain why you go back later and remove your stupidest comments? Isn't that an admission that you have no leg to stand on that you are not ashamed of and embarrassed by? Were you not Senile in your old age you would know what I am talking about and have scrotum sack enough to admit it. But in the end, you are what you are, a lying sack of delirious crap in your last days. And why do you have so many comments flagged as spam? I'm not doing it: U are dirt.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Didn't think you could sink any lower than naming Bleacher Report but somehow you managed it, Mrs Perryrice. I named 25+ fighters, trainers, historians and sportswriters who support my view. You have a couple of guys on an internet forum. You may think that's a consensus but, well, it ain't. BTW Jim Jeffries died in 1953 so he definitely didn't have any of them in his top 10, so add him to my list too.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Ali, by consensus, of fans and Professionals alike, is considered GOAT; & he got there by defeating 3 consensus top 10 Undisputed Heavyweight Champs. Even the consensus of your lists name at least 2 even if not 3 of them: Liston,Foreman &/or Frazier. Their names appear more often than not, even if all 3 are not on the same lists. Fleischer’s old lists don’t even make sense, they lack credibility, not even his own Ring Mag lists agree with him. Jim Jeffries is a poster today.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Ah, you didn't mean Jim Jeffries the former HW champ, you meant Jim Jeffries some guy on an internet forum who calls himself Jim Jeffries. They could be a 12 year old for all you know. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you are too. And you're backtracking again. You said the consensus was for ALL in the top 10 when it's demonstrably not the case, so thanks for admitting I was right again. I doubt it's even a consensus on boxing forums.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Yes; U got it now, some guy who’s knowledgeable & fair-minded enough to produce a Top 10 Greatest HW Champs List that does not exclude Ali. Even a 12 year old fan would know that, but not U & your guru Fleischer. What backtracking? I still say all 3 (Liston/Frazier & Foreman) are ALL by consensus in the top 10 list of all time greats, appearing more times than not, even if all 3 are not on the same list. Can you name 10 HW Champs appearing more than them?
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Sam was denied the chance to fight an undisputed champ because of politics and racism, so to bash him for that would be like bashing Ali for being winless from from April 67- Sept 70. In any event, the world colored HW title was the more legit title at the time given that most of the top HWs were black and Johnson, Dempsey and Willard were ducking them. 10% of Sam's wins were against world colored HW champs so he trumps Ali there and he didn't need phantom punches and gift decisions to do it.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Sam had a chance at Jack Johnson & lost (decked 2x) but had Sam won we could at least say he beat a man that became Undisputed champ. The Colored title wasn’t more legit cuz Jack already beat the best Colored fighters; so he went on to the White ones & the most money. Plus if a White fighter beat Jack why couldn’t he beat other Blacks like Sam? Why assume Sam’s or the Colored title’s superiority? Sam’s colored HOF fighters don’t trump Ali’s HOF & Undisputed Champ fighters.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
I said solar plexus. That's a specific body punch, not just any body punch. Kinda like me saying name a fight where Ali throws a right hook and you name any punch. If Ali threw "every punch in the book" as you claim then he would have thrown a solar plexus punch at some point. In which case, name the fight.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Hmm; first half of your point is made. I'll have to finish revisiting Ali's fights looking specifically for the "Solar plexus" shot, before I can see if he never threw one proving the second half of your point right.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Don't bother. He never threw one. So your "Ali is the bestest fighter ever because he threw every punch in the book" line has gone the way of "the hoopla is about a 92% win rate".
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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Ohh and guess what? Turns out Bleacher Report don't have Liston in their top 10 either. But they do have Ali in their top 10....most overrated boxers of all time LOL. Your consensus is shrinking by the minute, Mrs Perryrice. And not the only thing of yours that shrinks by the minute, according to Mrs LeFemme anyway. LOL
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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Consensus [kuhn-sen-suhs] n. majority of opinion; general agreement.
On the one side we have Bert Sugar, Boxrec, Buddy McGirt, Freddie Roach, George Foreman, Lou Duva, Gilbert Odd, Kevin Rooney, BBC, ESPN, Nat Flesicher, Nat Loubet, Charley Rose, Steve Farhood, Manny Steward and Mrs Perryrice herself agreeing Frazier, Foreman and Liston are not all top 10. And in the other corner we have...some people on an internet forum and Bleacher Report. Hmm, I wonder which one is the consensus.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
Less than 9% of Ali's wins were against those three. That means the other 91% of his wins were against such legends as Wepner, Hunsaker, Leon, Warner, Lavorante, Miteff, Mildenberger, Cooper, London, Dunn, Coopman, Blin, Robinson, Mathis, Evangelista, Chuvalo, Lubbers, Banks, Johnson, Sabedong, Besmanoff, Esperti, Powell, Logan, Fleeman and Siler, who had over 300 career losses between them. Hmm, I wonder which contributed more to his 92% win rate.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius So,according to U,Ali had an astronomical Win Rate against fighters good enough to become Undisputed HW Champions of the World- almost 9% of his victories were against this high standard of competetion,eh? Yes! Thanks for providing,as U always unwittingly do,info that validates Ali's claim as GOAT.(Ali really should pay U). U left out the HOF fighters he fought. & refresh my memory:Your Fixed-Fight-Sam beat exactly how many Undisputed HW Champs? 0, eh? Ali should pay U big $.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Your stupidity is astronomical. 9% is not. 91% is. 9 small. 91 big. Understand yet? And guess what? 10% of Marciano's wins were against undisputed champs, Louis 11%. Lewis 10%, Jeffries 21%, Holyfield 18%. Really, every time you type you damn your greatest even more. Lest we forget, by your original criteria for greatness, Ali isn't even one of the top 20 HWs of all time. I note you've quietly dropped that idea.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Mrs.FlaviusCuntius LeFemme: don't muddy the water ducking the issue between Sam Langford vs Ali as GOAT. Ali's 9% is indeed astronomical compared to Fixed-Fight-N-Carried Sam Langford's 0% win rate against anybody that became Undisputed HW Champion.Ali's 9% even includes victories over 2 indestructables when they were considered indestructable Champions Liston&Foreman (Marciano,Louis,Lewis,Jeffries nor Holyfield did that) & Fraziers head 2 times for good measure. Ali is #1.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Top 10 listed by whom? Have you been reading Bleacher Report again? As I told you before, Mrs Perryrice, a top 10 is just an opinion. Do you think every expert has the same top 10? Fleischer didn't have any of them in his top 10. Nor did Charley Rose. Nat Loubet didn't have Liston or Foreman. Bert Sugar doesn't have Liston. BBC and ESPN polls omitted Frazier and Liston. Boxrec omits Frazier, Foreman and Liston. And you already said you don't rate Frazier top 10.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius We've visited this before & I gave U 4 lists that did;most lists do.Dredging up a relative few that don't don't help your case when U discounted Sugar as an expert already;now suddenly he's one? Be consistent won't U? &don't regurgitate same answered questions like you're senile(U criticized Sugar for regurgitating). By consensus of professional & fan opinion Foreman/Frazier/Liston are top 10 HW Champs OAT;& Ali beat them all-& all would beat fixed fight Sam as J.Johnson did.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Consensus of who, Mrs Perryrice? 4 lists? I just named 8 for a start, including your own. You're arguing for Frazier as a consensus top 10 HW even though, according to you, he isn't top 10 worthy. No wonder you always seem confused. Do you know what day it is? Sugar is the type of person you cite as part of this supposed consensus. If I can name that many who don't agree with you then it's not much of a consensus. If anything, the consensus is the opposite.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Consensus of experts & fans alike, Mrs. FlaviusCuntius LeFemme,that's who. I see Liston/Frazier/Foreman on more lists than not, all over the place: Ring Mags,Dundee's,George Foreman's,Boxing Asylum's, ESB Forum's, Share Ranks', to pundits Scott9945/Jim Jeffries'/ to Great John L's lists, it can go on forever. Your lists are minority opinions, not consensus. Ali defeated 3 top ten list greats (5x); neither my opinion nor yours can change that. Face facts Mrs. FlaviusCuntius.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Add Buddy McGirt, Freddie Roach, Lou Duva, Gilbert Odd, Kevin Rooney, Steve Farhood and Manny Steward to those who also don't have all 3 in their top 10. And Foreman doesn't rate himself in the top 10, so you're wrong there too. You see, Mrs Perryrice, I can cite actual known boxing trainers and historians. Scott9945? The Great John L? How about naming some actual known pundits and historians instead of posters on some internet forum. The consensus is even more in my favor now.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius But even their lists have at least 2 of them, eh? How many of them list 2 fighters Fixed-Fight-Sam beat? 0 eh? Sam's competition, nor anybody else's, even ranks with Ali's. Thanks for letting us all know that, Mrs FlaviusLeFemme. I GOOGLED Foreman's Top 10, he ranks himself/Ali/Liston/Holmes & Frazier all as Top 10s. Why lie on him- it don't help U? I named Pros,Pundits,& everyday fans who all agree the 3 are Top 10s. U have & always will lose arguing against the GOAT.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Have a nice Christmas, Mrs Perryrice? By the look of it you spent most of the last 2 days talking to yourself on here, lol. No wonder Mrs Le Femme dumped you and ran off with the milkman. BTW Foreman's top 10 is on his personal website. He specifically excludes himself from the list.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Yes, it was nice, thank you; even spent time talking to U Mrs FlaviusCuntius LeFemme, but you didn’t answer back; yes, I did notice U dumped me for the milkman; only proves how skanky U are. But alas, U are back now, right? Shyt! gotta admit U were right about something small- George Foreman doesn’t list himself as a top 10 after all. Doesn’t mean he’s not one though; & he’s named so often by others he doesn’t have to name himself.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Good to know you spent your Christmas day on Youtube fantasizing about me. Me, I had a life to lead. No wonder Mrs LeFemme left you for a real man (any man?). I hope she found one who knows what a simile is. And what's that, backtracking again? So your consensus is now even smaller still. George also only rates Ali at #4 so add him to that list too.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius So Uonly have a life to lead on Christmas Day? That's when they let U out of the old folk's home? Cuz U definitely spend all your other days in futility hating Ali on YouTube. Some life you got there. Add George to what list? The one that has Frazier, Liston & Ali as top 10 all time greats? I already have, plus if he names Frazier, a lesser fighter than himself as top 10, you know he feels he is there too. He's just being modest; plus he does have a little grudge against Ali.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Ibeabuchi - 100%; Mike Spinks - 97%; Nielsen - 95%; Valuev - 94%; Haye - 93%
Either they're all greater than Ali, or win % is a daft way of judging fighters. You decide.
You act as if everyone Ali beat was an ATG. Liston, Foreman and Frazier were only 6 of his 61 fights. The rest were assuredly not against guys of extremely high quality. Some were good, some not so good and some downright awful. Lots of fights against Evangelista and Wepner level fighters upped his win % considerably.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Senile Old Fool, wasting your last days with silly arguments that never work against Ali. U have to accept reality: Ali's win percentage weighs far more than those other fighters cuz his includes victories over 3 of the top 10 listed Greatest HW Champions of all time, he is 5-1 against Liston, Foreman, Frazier, nobody else has reached those heights. Ali's 3 opponents would beat the crap outta all those guys you named; then they'd have Corrupt N Carried Sam's Crew as snacks.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice How can Ali be the GOAT when he doesn't even have one of the top 15 win %s in heavyweight history? Even Valuev and Brian Nielsen are ahead of him!
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Wow! Then make them your GOAT.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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@MrPerryrice They're your GOAT, Mrs Perryrice, as established by your criteria for greatness; "the hoopla is about a 92% win rate".
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Nope. I said “The hoopla is about a 92% win rate;shaking the world up 2 times;being the most exciting,fastest,most intelligent & entertaining Undisputed HW Champ OAT; for being at different times,in different fights in his career, able to outslug sluggers,fight inside,outside,on his toes,backwards,forewards,out box boxers,throw every punch in the book,score knockouts with left hooks;& beat top 10 list HOF great George Foreman in the infighting.” That's it Mrs Flavius LeFemme.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Why would there be hoopla about a win rate that isn't even in the top 15 among HWs, Mrs Perryrice? Everything else is just empty platitudes that you've clearly cut and pasted from somewhere. Name an example of each of those things listed.
PS. Calling me Mrs, now Mrs Perryrice? Once again, I can make you say whatever I want you to say, because all you can do is copy me. That's how weak minded and stupid you are. Now say snuffluphagus again. Or pumblechook. LOL
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius It's not just about a win rate, Mrs Flavius LeFemme, it's the level of competition defeated to get it,which nobody else has accomplished- Ali has 5 victories against 3 of the top ten lists all time greatest heavyweights. Ha ha ha! There's nothing Ucan say to ever deminish that. Spend your last days suffering in senility trying in futility all Uwant. See how I tricked U into admitting Uwant to be called a Mrs? (I knew Uwere gay all along).Don't worry,I'll call U Mrs all Uwant.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice What's that Mrs Perryrice, you're gay as well and you want me to pretend to be Mrs LeFemme? No I won't, Mrs Perryrice. Don't try to lure me into your weird sexual perversions. That's why she left you in the first place. You have to let go. She left you for a real man and she won't be be coming back.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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@FlaviusConstantius Gay as well as who? Obviously U. but sorry, even though U admit to being gay, I don't, and am not. Sorry that disappoints you, but I am not the only man you cannot have. So stick with your husband, Mrs Flavius LeFemme, he is the man you married after all; don't be a scank. Don't try to lie now; U admitted you contrived to have me call U by what U are: "Calling me Mrs, now Mrs Perryrice? Once again, I can make you say whatever I want you to say." See? U want me to call U Mrs.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
hate tyson ,but who did ali fight that was even close to a prime tyson ,if they were both 21 22 tyson would have taken alis head off ,frazier was similar to tyson ,but no where near as quick ,ali was certainly not hard to hit but had a granite chin,but its the ones you dont see that knock you out,foreman was powerful but so incredibly limited,tyson was quick and powerful,i think we may never know how good some of tysons opponents could have been as he blew them away,ali was not as lethal
chromeheart65 2 months ago
@chromeheart65 Tyson does not belong in a GOAT conversation because he was incredibly limited even in his prime. I would match George and Sonny Liston against Tyson any day and bet on them to beat him. Tyson couldn't fight backing up and he'd have to against George. Ali showed us certain shyt: he's not getting KOd. Ali's head (KO) was never taken off- Tyson's was, even in his prime. Tyson Prime couldn't take Tucker's head off (among others), but he could knock Ali out? Pure dreaming my friend.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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@MrPerryrice Ali was knocked out by 185lb Henry Cooper and needed extra time to recover. Ali was wincing from Karl Mildenberger's body shots, staggered and outboxed by 188lb Doug Jones, went life and death with George Chuvalo. Sub in Tyson for any of those and it ain't hard to see that Tyson wins. 6-5 230lb 35-0 Tony Tucker would beat Cooper, Jones, Chuvalo and Mildenberger without breaking sweat. 22 y/o Tyson would send 22 y/o Ali's head into the second row.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
The reason Mrs Perryrice gets so angry is she knows I'm right and can't refute anything I say. Her case for Ali being the GOAT simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The absurd 'Ali is the GOAT because he had a 92% win rate' comment is merely the latest example. Poor Mrs P doesn't even realize I just refuted yet another of her claims. Truly a ridiculous old woman of limited means and unlimited infirmity. Hopefully she'll now tell us all about the time Jimmy Young knocked out George Foreman. LOL
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Confused Old Senile Dunce,babbling deliriously in his last days; can't even tell men from women anymore; no wonder he can't accept boxing reality as it is: No subject in boxing has withstood more scrutiny - Ali by consensus is GOAT. Sorry,but that's it. The Senile Dunce had 2 months to prove it wrong,now mad at me cuz he couldn't; I made him look foolish along the way. He said he used to think Ali was GOAT too, now he spends his last days disoriented,embittered babbling lies.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
You aren't a man Mrs Perryrice. You have no cojones for a start. Do you think if Ali turned pro in 1900 as a novice 16 y/o, had a 25 year career and 320 bouts, 60 vs HOFers alone, fought 15x a year, often every few weeks, faced Foreman 20x, Frazier 15x and Norton 10x, gave up at least 6" in height and 20lbs in weight in half his fights, carried on fighting into his 40s when he was virtually blind and not had any NOI, biased officials or a cheerleading media to help him, he'd have a 92% win rate?
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Poor Confused Senile Old Dunce,I can tell you married a man, & most assuredly he has the cojones in the relationship,not you. That's why you even started this gay talk of yours. Futile, "IF" shyt again? Tough! If's don't count. Reality does and Ali is by consensus GOAT. "If" scenarios are argued cuz U have nothing real. Good. Glad U revealed what you are expert at since it's not boxing - other men's cojones,eh? Can't keep 'em out your mouth,er,conversation,eh? Ali's GOAT.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Can you translate that into English Mrs Perryrice?
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Since you flavor your comments with so much gay talk, you obviously are gay, and have married a man whose cojones are the only ones in your marriage with him. And since male genetalia are always coming out your mouth in your conversations they must have first went in- and explains why you are an expert at other mens cojones, & no expert at boxing. And Ali remains GOAT by consensus of fan and expert opinion alike; nothing U, Mrs.Flavius LeFemme can do about it. Understand?
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@breastmilkgaysexs A very accurate, fair, insightful and credible description of Ali and this loon Flavious. Every argument he raises against Ali applies even more agaainst Ali's opponents-but he's too hypocrital & unfair to acknowledge it (probably cuz he's foolish). Why would he tell you 99% of people believed the world was flat then instantly list a bunch of Ali critics as though it does not pertain to them? Stupid.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice. I haven't read all of your comments (it might take days to finish :p) but I essentially agree with you on most of what you've said if I interpret it correctly. Ali most definitely a legend, joy, master, genius, and a great if not the greatest boxer of all time! He and Mike Tyson...both completely different fighters in almost every way and from different eras so I can't choose one over the other. Anyways, good day to you and your friend "FlaviusConstantius" :).
breastmilkgaysexs 2 months ago
dream.
breastmilkgaysexs 2 months ago
he rose to the occasion and met those demands, and then some...every...single...time...for decades. Add to that his showmanship, the way he electrified every crowd, his running his mouth but then living up to every word, predicting many many rounds, etc., and we've got a one of a kind champion, the kind who the world will ever only see once, and I'm grateful to live in an age where I can at least witness it on video. I can't imagine what it would've been like to be at an Ali fight, but I can
breastmilkgaysexs 2 months ago
Anyways, I don't mean to offend, I'm just really straightforward and passionate on the subject. Ali was a genius and a master boxer, and off the charts great in about every way possible--skill, intelligence, guts, overcoming any opposition that stood in his way, pain tolerance, etc. He was a true champion who never once crumpled under pressure, and when a championship fight demanded any particular degree of excellence and performance level if you will, in order to win,
breastmilkgaysexs 2 months ago
The whole boxing world at least recognizes and respects Ali's magnificent abilities and victories, and that he is up there with the greats, if not the greatest. Was every fight called perfectly fair? Maybe not, but if they were scored perfectly fair, at most he'd have maybe one or two more losses on his record, or maybe another win or two. And for those who are in the 1% usually are either jealous Ali-haters or just simply don't understand the art and sport of boxing.
breastmilkgaysexs 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius. Somehow I just got caught up going down reading your and your friend "mrperryrice"'s exchange of comments for a few pages lol, but I've just gotta say that the way you've been describing Muhammad Ali just goes to show with 100% certainty that you know nothing about and have no credibility in any of your comments that have to do with boxing. No offense good sir. But I'm pretty sure 99% of the world would agree, and that's including those who don't even rank him as GOAT.
breastmilkgaysexs 2 months ago
@breastmilkgaysexs 99% of people used to think the sun revolves around the earth too. The intellectual forebears of the Ali fanbase. Cut through the hyperbole and Ali was a fairly limited fighter who a lot of stinkers and got a lot of breaks from officials, but was made into a god by the anti-Vietnam crowd. BTW, Nat Fleischer, Gene Tunney, Larry Holmes, Charley Rose, Red Smith, Manny Seamon and Eddie Futch agree Ali was overrated and they knew a thing or two about boxing.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius This proves how hypocritical your arguments always are. First U start off claiming people don't know what they are talking about then follow it up claiming they do by listing what a bunch of Ali critics said.Why don't U tell us how many times Ali proved those guys wrong in guaging his skills? They picked Liston,Ali proved them wrong; they picked Foreman,Ali proved them wrong. Meaning they know nothing about accurately assessing Ali's skill and abilities. Think for yourself!
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
PS. Best not to talk about things you don't understand, like boxing, grammatical terms, the alphabet, or anything really. For your benefit, "Carnera broke his ankle & Vitali broke his rotator cuff; no damn difference" is not a simile. A simile is a figure of speech used to draw a comparison between two unrelated entities or scenarios, almost poetically; ie you are slower than a 150 year old tortoise with arthritis. Here endeth today's lesson.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius That's what mines does. I watched these old Langford/Mcvey/Battling Jim Johnson/Jennette (at least learn to spell Jennette's family name righ,there's no "a"),they are motionless,1 punch at a time,holding artists as usual; but I saw Jack Johnson/Flynn-Whoa! Finally a flatfooted, moving Ali he is! Jab, backpeddling,circling,jab,jab,clinch against the ropes, sidestep, right hand,flurries, left hook backing up,clinch breaking up the exchange! Whoa! That's a boxer! No dumb brute!
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice "The hoopla is about a 92% win rate"
Marciano - 100%; Vitali - 95%; Bowe - 95%; Louis - 94%; Foreman - 94%; Wlad - 94%; Tunney - 93%; Lewis - 93%; Liston - 93%; Johansson - 93%
So according to your criteria for greatness, Ali ain't even one of the top 10 all time HW greats.
LOL
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Your post only makes sense if win rate alone was my criteria for greatness. I've spent 2 months arguing otherwise, so your post is completely dishonest and simplified. I merely pointed out that Ali's win rate was higher than your candidate Sam Langford, Jennette's and those old timers. Ali rates extremely high in the quality of opponent defeated categorie- Marciano,Vitali,Wlad, & Johansson don't even belong in the argument.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
No. This is 2 months of you making a fool of yourself again and again and again. Saying Carnera finished his fight vs Baer is the latest, after claiming Wepner was only decked by Ali, Foreman didn't have 5 straight KOs after Zaire, Young KOd Foreman, Ali had Parkinsons in 70, Young dying before Ali shows Ali was better, Ali caused Frazier's kidney infection and Williams' multiple serious injuries don't matter because he passed his medical. And you get your all-time rankings from Bleacher Report.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
Look at Norton's foul play in round 6. There has never been anything worse in boxing. Ali is holding him a bay with a fully extended left and Norton is clearly trying to damage Ali's joint by trying to hook and uppercut the elbow. This would have hyperextended the joint, disabling the arm and could have easily caused permanent damage. Norton knew what he was doing. Ali knew too. Why the ref didn't disqualify Norton is a mystery to me.
Anyway, Ali won.
jeffxpoint 2 months ago
Dunce is oblivious to what's right there in front of him. He doesn't see Sam neutralizing Jeannette's jab. Dunce doesn't know what neutralizing a jab means. Dunce doesn't know what cutting the ring, infighting or an effective defense is. Dunce sees everything from an Ali's worshiper's perspective. If a boxer shows more skills than Ali possessed, he's too stupid to notice. That's why he thinks body punches don't score points but standing between rounds does. That's how dense dunce is.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius The Senile Dunce's hallucinations: Jennette had a jab worthy of neutralizing; motionless Jennette(toe to toe) moved enough to be cut off; holding & hitting wasn't Jennette/Langford's infinghting; holding & hitting wasn't both their defenses(& offenses); that his sight is not warped by senility, cateracs & anti-Ali hate; dumb club fighters are more skilled than Ali. & he's stupid enough to think I said body punches don't score but standing between rounds does. Cuz he's Senile
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
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Where's the Greatest? If Ali was the GOAT he wouldn't have been beat up by Frazier in the biggest fight of his career, nearly KOd by 185lb Cooper, needed crappy TKOs in fights he was struggling in (Banks, Logan, Bonavena, Lyle), gift decisions in fights he clearly lost (Norton II & III, Jones, Shavers, Young), opponents taking dives (Liston, Folley), had his best performance against a literally shot opponent, quit on his stool vs Holmes and wouldn't have lost his title to a glass jawed novice.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
Rd 2, Ali stands and leans against Wepner, now lies on the ropes as Wepner hits him, now leans against him, now they trade rabbit punches, bitches to the ref again, Ali finally throws a punch, which misses, now they're hugging again, Ali gets hit with a right, he grabs Wepner's neck again, and again, Ali throws a jab, which misses, now he's on the ropes getting hit. Now the crowd are booing. Now they're clinching, Ali grabs his neck again. This is your 'Greatest'?
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Jokes,eh? All Ugot against Ali? U didn't describe the 108 or so stitches Ali put in Wepner's face? Or Ali outta shape but still administering a steady beating to Wepner's bloody, cut face in rounds 9-15, ending with 2 pretty combinations then a right hand that sent Wepner to the canvass for the only time in his career, & TKOing him. Yes, GOAT, old, fat, outta shape when even U admitted he was showing signs of Parkinsons. Whoa!! Check out that movement as the beating went on.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
Hmm, in one corner we have a 6ft7, 250lb boxer puncher who has has a high KO%, has never been KD'd, never behind in a fight, rarely loses a round and whose only losses have been to freak injuries. In the other we have a 6ft3 210lber who doesn't hit hard, never beat someone Vitali's size, was nearly KO'd by 185lb Cooper, needed a gift to beat 188lb Jones, went life and death with mediocre Chuvalo and struggled to beat Mildenberger. Only one logical winner here dunce, and it ain't Ali.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius In this corner:6’7”Primo Cornera,never KOd then KOd by 6’2” Max Baer.Vitali got punched in the eye cutting it open-no a freak injury,it’s Lennox banging & TKOing him.U said TKOs count as KO's didn't U dunce? Now when Vitali's TKOd U backtrack & say his don't count as KO? & his shoulder only proves he is not a superman after all,plus he cuts so why couldn't Ali cut him? Foreman never was KOd either til Ali did it. The only freak would be a 6'7" Undisputed World HW Champion.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Bad example, dunce. Carnera broke his ankle in that fight, Baer hit much harder than Ali and Baer fouled constantly. I said Vitali's never been KD'd (knocked down), not never TKO'd. Try to pay attention. Vitali has had one serious cut in 45 fights. Against Byrd he tore his rotator cuff after winning every round. Those are freak injuries and a fluke is Ali's only chance of winning cos he sure ain't knocking Vitali out and he ain't outboxing him either.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Excellent example Stupid. Carnera broke his ankle & Vitali broke his rotator cuff; no damn difference. So he was never KD'd? Getting TKO'd twice is even worse U idiot. Nothing freak about his 2 TKO's; it shows he is vulnerable to TKO's, damn near for any reason. Fighting Ali he'd tear the rotator and get cut in the same fight; TKO for sure.Vitali,cut or not, was slowing down & caving in to Lennox even before the stoppage.Clearly on way to being TKOd or KOd by Lennox for sure.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
@MrPerryrice Dunce can't tell the difference between a rotator cuff and an ankle. Dunce is still trying to chew his soup. LOL Glad you agree with me that a fluke injury for Vitali is Ali's only chance of winning. Ali has been dropped and hurt by lighter punchers than Vitali, outboxed by less formidable boxers than Vitali, never beat anyone Vitali's size. Vitali's never behind in a fight, rarely loses a round, never dropped or hurt and has a 90% KO rate. Vitali wins. Pretty easily.
FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago
@FlaviusConstantius Idiot can't comprehend a "simile",like boxing,it's over his old head; he's choking not chewing his meat & vegetable soup.Glad U agree Vitali'd get TKOd on cuts &torn rotator cuff against Ali. Ali has been hit by & survived,then KOd greater punchers than Vitali-he's been TKO'd 2xs by lesser boxers than Ali; Vitali's never beat but lost to the only fighter he fought comparable in skills to Ali. Never behind meant nothing when he got TKOd 2x. Ali shakes up the world again.
MrPerryrice 2 months ago
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FlaviusConstantius 2 months ago