Respond to this video... my mentioning RC was to say, i have read all the great minds on this, BOTH sides. I understand your point of view well. and, its not biblical at all, nor does it make any sense, nor was it taught by christ or any one in the bible, and that IS provable. this is my position. as to anthonys point about the father dying on the cross, you dont understand that he DOES understand the trinity, and it leads to that conclusion, or, it leads to"mystery" . Jesus is not GOD
Respond to this video... in reality, the trinity is tri theist, 3 Gods. If YHWH is GOD, and JESUS is GOD, and THE SPIRIT , IS GOD, they are either all separate Gods, or logic falls apart. and, yes, logic is required, especially since the PROOF , via the scriptures , is not there. your left with a confusing, "mystery" in which you dont know who is God, or who is not, but they all are, but arnt. it is really nonsense. Anthony Buzzard is right on the money. but, you dont agree,ok
@sbgrox11 lets be clear. I DO understand the trinity. I never said , according to the trinity, jesus was the father. Howevr, the trinity is an ilogical theory. and, so, if you say jesus is god, and yhwh is god, they are both god, then, they are the same. of course you will say, "no, they are seoerate, but not as God, as God they are one, as persons, or essence, or something else, they are not" right. i get it. it makes no sense. u can argue forever, it will make no sense, in reality
@SixStringDeity according to the trinity, jesus was the father
That is modalism not the Trinity. Modalists are oneness pentecostals an anti-trinitarian cult. Trinitarians reject modalism. So as long as you keep insisting that the Trinity is ONE PERSON with three names, you will continue to be ignorant and lost.
@sbgrox11 Do your own homework, type in 'modalism' and 'Trinity' in the internet. you will get 10,000 webpages telling you that modalism is the most common misconception of the Trinity.
@sbgrox11 Here is a quote from R.C. Sproul's Book "Defending your Faith". on page 42 it reads..
"the historic doctrine of the Trinity asserts that God is one in essence, or substance, and three in person. If we write this in logical terms it would look like the following:God is one in A (essence), and three in B (persons). According to this principle, we see the the Trinity does not violate logic."
So, i'm sorry but as for Dr Sproul you have been mistaken. As for Buzzard, he's the problem.
@sbgrox11 Well no wonder you think that the Trinity is modalism. I debated Mr Anthony Buzzard personally. And he thinks the Trinity is modalism as well. He told me and I quote, "The father did not die on the cross.". I answered him, "I know, we don't believe that either".
As for RC Sproul I need for you to give me ONE quote from the internet where Dr Sproul EVER said that the Father is the Son and I will become a JW tonight. I know this because I own his books.
@sbgrox11 Even that reply showed me your ignorance on this subject. How can you claim that a belief is wrong, if you don't even know what it is?
First lean the differance between modalism and the Trinity, then we'll talk about the Trinity and how wrong it is. Until then, you're just talking ignorant.
@sbgrox11 honoring them equaly does not mean that they are equal, nor does it mean that they are the same person. Jesus is the representative of the father, he is NOT the father.
What you are mistaking is modalism for the Trinity. Modalism teaches that the Son IS the Father. Modalists are anti-trinitarians. Trinitarians do not teach this. The subject of the video is on the Trinity. So you are right, there is no trinity here.
@sbgrox11 There is also a growing body of scholars that reject the virgin birth, miracles and resurrection of Jesus, and so increasing numbers does not necessarily equal increasing truthfulness. I came to this realization through my own independent study on the book of John and of the Old Testament. I know that Dann who made this video was not tutored by the churches to come to his views either. When I stopped looking for a God that I could put in a box, I found the real Jesus.
@sbgrox11 I understand the Jewish point of view. In fact, I was and am Jewish! I never grew up believing Jesus was God. But like the early Jews in the book of John, I was confronted with the fact that Jesus equated himself with God(John 10:25-33, Matt 26:62-66) I then had to decide whether Jesus was a blasphemer or whether he was God. I was not inclined to believe the latter, but eventually had to concede to that and commit my life to Jesus Christ.
Jews today and back in Jesus' day could not accept the idea that Jesus is a god among many. The Old Testament is very clear that there is one true God. Any deity or god outside of that is false.
@sbgrox11 You are right when he says "I" he means "I". In Exodus he says "I AM", and then in John 8 Jesus says "I AM". They are 2 separate (actually 3 counting the Spirit) persons making up one God. "I and the Father are one" John 10:30
@sbgrox11 You and a lot of others fall into the trap of thinking God has to "make sense". The truth is God is a lot more complex than we can ever begin to understand. He doesn't have to "make sense" to us. His always having been doesn't "make sense", but the Bible tells us it is true. I choose to let the Bible speak the truth and believe what it says. When It says that "the Word was with God and the Word was God", I believe it, even If I can't fully understand it.
@sbgrox11 Yo also state: "If the bible taught a trinity , Id believe it. its just not there folks. check it out." I have checked it out and it's there, Take for instance 2 Cor. 13:14 "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
@sbgrox11 You keep saying that the trinity is that Jesus and the Father are the same person, but that is Oneness and not trinitarianism. The trinity is God in 3 persons---each distinct from each other and yet together comprising the uncreated God. There are roles within the trinity---the Son submits to the Father---yet they share the same divine nature. Can you honor the Father without worshipping Him?
Awsome series! I find Trinitarianism to be so painfully obvious in the Bible. Do you think that one reason why Jehovah's Witnesses don't see it is because they have misunderstood what is meant by the term? I think as a former Jehovah's Witness yourself, you doubtless have special insight into the question. Thanks!
@evangelical1 One of the biggest reasons they and others don't accept it is because they think everything has to be reasonable and logical to them. I now believe that not all things about God or his creation can be fully understood by the human mind. Odly enough, JWs don't seem to mind the idea that God never had a beginning. That seems to be an exception to their rule.
@earnestlyseeking Yeah, I heard somewhere that Russell was undergoing a crisis of faith when he encountered (if memory serves) Miller. Miller explained to him a way to read out of the Bible all the difficult passages including those indicating the Trinity. Once the false idea got in his head that one could believe the Bible but reject Trinitarianism etc, he really went to town. Then the Watchtower took over from there.
@evangelical1 The thing that got me, when I was in the process of changing was this. How come the watchtower argues against the trinity, when there's so much support in the scriptures. But other things like 1914 has no support. And back when Russell was getting the organization started, the KJV was about the only bible being used. The NWT didn't arrive on the scene until the 1950s. Using the KJV only would give even more support to the trinity.
Remember the Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are testimony's of Jesus Christ's truth, after all that happened. Thus, in Jn5:18, John is giving Jesus Christ's truth of what He said and claimed in truth. John is saying: when Jesus called God His Father and claimed to perform acts only true God can do, Jesus WAS making Himself equal to God. They “sought to kill him” (Jn5:18; 7:1,19,25; 8:37,40) for claiming He's eternally equal to God His Father; as John taught = 1Jn1:1-3,10,14; 1Jn1:1-6.
Respond to this video... my mentioning RC was to say, i have read all the great minds on this, BOTH sides. I understand your point of view well. and, its not biblical at all, nor does it make any sense, nor was it taught by christ or any one in the bible, and that IS provable. this is my position. as to anthonys point about the father dying on the cross, you dont understand that he DOES understand the trinity, and it leads to that conclusion, or, it leads to"mystery" . Jesus is not GOD
SixStringDeity 7 months ago
@SixStringDeity as to anthonys point about the father dying on the cross, you dont understand that he DOES understand the trinity,
Clearly he doesn't if the Father is the same PERSON as the Son there would be no point to THREE PERSONS within the one Godhead.
pretoshohmoofc 7 months ago
Respond to this video... in reality, the trinity is tri theist, 3 Gods. If YHWH is GOD, and JESUS is GOD, and THE SPIRIT , IS GOD, they are either all separate Gods, or logic falls apart. and, yes, logic is required, especially since the PROOF , via the scriptures , is not there. your left with a confusing, "mystery" in which you dont know who is God, or who is not, but they all are, but arnt. it is really nonsense. Anthony Buzzard is right on the money. but, you dont agree,ok
SixStringDeity 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 lets be clear. I DO understand the trinity. I never said , according to the trinity, jesus was the father. Howevr, the trinity is an ilogical theory. and, so, if you say jesus is god, and yhwh is god, they are both god, then, they are the same. of course you will say, "no, they are seoerate, but not as God, as God they are one, as persons, or essence, or something else, they are not" right. i get it. it makes no sense. u can argue forever, it will make no sense, in reality
SixStringDeity 7 months ago
@SixStringDeity according to the trinity, jesus was the father
That is modalism not the Trinity. Modalists are oneness pentecostals an anti-trinitarian cult. Trinitarians reject modalism. So as long as you keep insisting that the Trinity is ONE PERSON with three names, you will continue to be ignorant and lost.
pretoshohmoofc 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 Do your own homework, type in 'modalism' and 'Trinity' in the internet. you will get 10,000 webpages telling you that modalism is the most common misconception of the Trinity.
pretoshohmoofc 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 Here is a quote from R.C. Sproul's Book "Defending your Faith". on page 42 it reads..
"the historic doctrine of the Trinity asserts that God is one in essence, or substance, and three in person. If we write this in logical terms it would look like the following:God is one in A (essence), and three in B (persons). According to this principle, we see the the Trinity does not violate logic."
So, i'm sorry but as for Dr Sproul you have been mistaken. As for Buzzard, he's the problem.
pretoshohmoofc 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 Well no wonder you think that the Trinity is modalism. I debated Mr Anthony Buzzard personally. And he thinks the Trinity is modalism as well. He told me and I quote, "The father did not die on the cross.". I answered him, "I know, we don't believe that either".
As for RC Sproul I need for you to give me ONE quote from the internet where Dr Sproul EVER said that the Father is the Son and I will become a JW tonight. I know this because I own his books.
pretoshohmoofc 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 Even that reply showed me your ignorance on this subject. How can you claim that a belief is wrong, if you don't even know what it is?
First lean the differance between modalism and the Trinity, then we'll talk about the Trinity and how wrong it is. Until then, you're just talking ignorant.
pretoshohmoofc 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 honoring them equaly does not mean that they are equal, nor does it mean that they are the same person. Jesus is the representative of the father, he is NOT the father.
What you are mistaking is modalism for the Trinity. Modalism teaches that the Son IS the Father. Modalists are anti-trinitarians. Trinitarians do not teach this. The subject of the video is on the Trinity. So you are right, there is no trinity here.
pretoshohmoofc 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 There is also a growing body of scholars that reject the virgin birth, miracles and resurrection of Jesus, and so increasing numbers does not necessarily equal increasing truthfulness. I came to this realization through my own independent study on the book of John and of the Old Testament. I know that Dann who made this video was not tutored by the churches to come to his views either. When I stopped looking for a God that I could put in a box, I found the real Jesus.
rachelbinto 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 I understand the Jewish point of view. In fact, I was and am Jewish! I never grew up believing Jesus was God. But like the early Jews in the book of John, I was confronted with the fact that Jesus equated himself with God(John 10:25-33, Matt 26:62-66) I then had to decide whether Jesus was a blasphemer or whether he was God. I was not inclined to believe the latter, but eventually had to concede to that and commit my life to Jesus Christ.
rachelbinto 7 months ago
Jews today and back in Jesus' day could not accept the idea that Jesus is a god among many. The Old Testament is very clear that there is one true God. Any deity or god outside of that is false.
rachelbinto 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 If you live your whole life without worshipping the Father in any way, would that be showing him honor?
rachelbinto 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 I am responding to this video when I ask if you can honor the Father without worshipping Him. Well, can you?
rachelbinto 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 You are right when he says "I" he means "I". In Exodus he says "I AM", and then in John 8 Jesus says "I AM". They are 2 separate (actually 3 counting the Spirit) persons making up one God. "I and the Father are one" John 10:30
earnestlyseeking 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 You and a lot of others fall into the trap of thinking God has to "make sense". The truth is God is a lot more complex than we can ever begin to understand. He doesn't have to "make sense" to us. His always having been doesn't "make sense", but the Bible tells us it is true. I choose to let the Bible speak the truth and believe what it says. When It says that "the Word was with God and the Word was God", I believe it, even If I can't fully understand it.
earnestlyseeking 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 Yo also state: "If the bible taught a trinity , Id believe it. its just not there folks. check it out." I have checked it out and it's there, Take for instance 2 Cor. 13:14 "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
earnestlyseeking 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 "You say: "he didnt say"we" or" us", but "I" Oh Really? How about Gen 1:26?
earnestlyseeking 7 months ago
@sbgrox11 You keep saying that the trinity is that Jesus and the Father are the same person, but that is Oneness and not trinitarianism. The trinity is God in 3 persons---each distinct from each other and yet together comprising the uncreated God. There are roles within the trinity---the Son submits to the Father---yet they share the same divine nature. Can you honor the Father without worshipping Him?
rachelbinto 7 months ago
Awsome series! I find Trinitarianism to be so painfully obvious in the Bible. Do you think that one reason why Jehovah's Witnesses don't see it is because they have misunderstood what is meant by the term? I think as a former Jehovah's Witness yourself, you doubtless have special insight into the question. Thanks!
evangelical1 7 months ago
@evangelical1 One of the biggest reasons they and others don't accept it is because they think everything has to be reasonable and logical to them. I now believe that not all things about God or his creation can be fully understood by the human mind. Odly enough, JWs don't seem to mind the idea that God never had a beginning. That seems to be an exception to their rule.
earnestlyseeking 7 months ago
@earnestlyseeking Yeah, I heard somewhere that Russell was undergoing a crisis of faith when he encountered (if memory serves) Miller. Miller explained to him a way to read out of the Bible all the difficult passages including those indicating the Trinity. Once the false idea got in his head that one could believe the Bible but reject Trinitarianism etc, he really went to town. Then the Watchtower took over from there.
evangelical1 7 months ago
@evangelical1 The thing that got me, when I was in the process of changing was this. How come the watchtower argues against the trinity, when there's so much support in the scriptures. But other things like 1914 has no support. And back when Russell was getting the organization started, the KJV was about the only bible being used. The NWT didn't arrive on the scene until the 1950s. Using the KJV only would give even more support to the trinity.
earnestlyseeking 7 months ago
Amen, brother!
jrichard1977 7 months ago
Well played Dann! They DON'T honor Jesus at all. Just Lip Service as you know!
TheSnarkyApologist 8 months ago
Remember the Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are testimony's of Jesus Christ's truth, after all that happened. Thus, in Jn5:18, John is giving Jesus Christ's truth of what He said and claimed in truth. John is saying: when Jesus called God His Father and claimed to perform acts only true God can do, Jesus WAS making Himself equal to God. They “sought to kill him” (Jn5:18; 7:1,19,25; 8:37,40) for claiming He's eternally equal to God His Father; as John taught = 1Jn1:1-3,10,14; 1Jn1:1-6.
barbsinclair 8 months ago
To the thumbs down person. You didn't answer the question? How are you honoring Jesus?
earnestlyseeking 8 months ago
@earnestlyseeking>"To the thumbs down person. You didn't answer the question?How are you honoring Jesus?"
If JW thumb down this video, its because all JW are a people not for the name of Jesus; JW appreciate that their not for Jesus. Read:
WT Feb/15/1964 p109
"They [Jehovah's Witnesses] came to appreciate that they were a people, not for the name of Jesus"
WT 9/1/1953 p534
"...he would take them out from the nations to be a “people for his name” not for the name of Jesus, mind you!"
Scary !
barbsinclair 8 months ago
Excellent question Dann
21crosscheck21 8 months ago
@21crosscheck21 Hey Brian, hope all is well with you. When will you and Brock be doing the blogtalk radio thing?
earnestlyseeking 8 months ago
@earnestlyseeking God willing we will be starting in a couple of weeks. I am really looking forward to it.
21crosscheck21 8 months ago