@iamsamiam77 The problem is that the definition of God is so nebulous and varies so much from person-to-person that God can basically become whatever He needs to be in order to escape logical paradoxes, rational inquiry, etc.
@iamsamiam77 So which version of "god's word" are we to credit? The Bible? The Quran? The Vedas? The Torah? The Bhagavadgita? The Essential Rumi?
BTW, if you're referring to the Bible with your assertion that god invented logic and rules over it, you're going to have to cite scripture and verse. Everything I've read in the Bible is against logic and reason because questioning would expose the falsity of the religion.
@iamsamiam77 If god is above rules and limitations, then why does he seek to employ mere mortals to do his work? Why does he burden us with punishing wrongdoers instead of doing it himself? Why does he allow innocent children to suffer and murderers to go free?
Oh, and hell isn't a punishment for doing wrong. All one has to do is accept Jesus and you go to heaven, regardless of who you've murdered while simple non-belief is punished no matter how good, decent and caring the non-believer is.
The god of Utensils that cause draws to get stuck was always my favorite - the premise was i believe, that anything you personify enough becoming a diefic personification
OMG I love you guys. I am reading Small Gods right now.
He has some other great things in another discworld book called Carpe Jugulum. It was a book about vampires, but it had a priest from that religion getting into theological debates with a witch character who spelled out to him what it would really mean to actually believe in a god.
It was a great book and really helped give a funny perspective towards moderates.
i hate how us athiests have been shunned by society. i am 14 and while there is no chance i will ever go back to believing in god i feel like for a relegion where judgement is not supposed to be given it is given a lot. why is it that we are made out to be inferior human beings just because we are smart enough to see through relegion and see the world as it really is. why is it that a greater intelect brings judgement and hate from the less intelegent people.
@noaccount4 sorry about spelling it was 3am lol but english is my main language. and there really is no such thing as an athiest country when the majority of people on earth believe in some god and about one third of them follow some form of christianity.
@noaccount4 3/4 of the UK is atheist??? Where did you get that from?
This year's census put the figure at about 20% ish and some other surveys put about 30-40% with no religious affiliation (which I think sounds about right)
Even amongst young people the figure doesn't go above 65%
@noaccount4 I personally think the number is much higher than the 20% that the census states (they put the question straight after a question about cultural identity so I imagine a lot of people put Christian as a cultural rather than religious thing)
The census is only done every 10 years so what study got the 3/4 figure? If it's credible then brilliant!
@TheOmegajuice 1/4 still leaves 11 million christians just in London alone (just me guessing:), It's just a rough estimate, source from a government survey published in the metro a while back;]
@noaccount4 (I assume you meant to say england alone, there isn't 44 million people living in London lol)
I think that's probably not quite right but anyway your point about the UK being an Atheist friendly country (at least relatively speaking) is accurate so I'm drop it :-)
God is beyond human-understanding. The best we can hope for is reconfirmed interpretation of 'crying babies' (and other unreasonable sounds). Call the babies 'Bodhisattvas'
It´s really dumb to say somebody won an argument by throwing all logic out the window, like her father does. You can´t say you are logical by saying logic does not apply to god or that god created logic like he wanted it to be, in that case logic isn´t universal and you can hardly say your standpoint is logical if you don´t think logic is universal.
This whole video seems a little misguided. At the beginning, the caller seems to be talking about God not having to obey physical laws (given that she mentions his existence, not his rule), while the host instead assumes that she's talking about moral laws.
It's funny how all of the atheist callers are well spoken and can actually relate a coherent point...Not my original post but a good point nonetheless
Oh Jeff Dee you do entertain me so! Trying to put a being of the magnitude of the false god of christianity on the level of an elected official. If such a being existed, it might be a tyrant, but if you create something, TRULY create it, you have the right to do with it what you will.
@jkellybrew No you don't. You do not have the right to enslave your children. It is actually immoral to create something, even at the level of genetic engineering, and then cause that entity to suffer.
Setting aside the issue of whether you could, because obviously you could, it would not make it right. If you bring harm to a self concious individual, for no reason other than your own entertainment, then that is wrong regardless of the origin of that concious individual. It matters not if you or god are its creator, if its wrong, its wrong.
This argument is only useful if you can first prove there is a god. So to the girl in the video: ask your father how his argument proves that Christianity is true. If he can't prove that, then all other arguments are completely useless. So what if they claim that their God is above all rules and limitations? I could claim many things about creatures that I have never proven to exist. This is an unfair discussion to begin with. Prove that a god exists, and if you can't, you're being irrational.
@dutchbb1979 very interesting, i just had someone today try to prove to me that god exist by telling me that theres no way the human body could be so complex without a creator. Yes the human body is very complex, but science without a doubt explains that. Someone please explain to me how the human body proves gods existence?
If God is above all rules and limitations, then that means he is an absolute tyrant, and we have no freedom whatsoever, and are in effect, abject slaves without any free will or any hope of freedom, even after we die. How can we be accountable for anything? And how can anyone possibly think that the concept of "free will" is compatible with the concept of an "all-powerful" God? The two concepts are mutually exclusive. Big Brother is watching you!!
It's true. God is unconscionable . Any way we explain God limits God and God is unlimited. Belief in God does not come from how things work that we cant explain but " Why" things work the way they do. Hence with "God" we can explain the meaning of life. And that is the Magic. Peace.
@affluence8 You can't explain anything with something that is never proven to exist in any logical manner. There is no reason to believe in a god. Therefore there is no reason to explain things by pointing to a god. The god thing is just a cop out when some people don't like that they can't explain something, which is stupid, because you do not learn or solve anything by doing that. Accept your ignorance, accept science, and learn. Peace.
@darklordrandy Really? We'll I'll head on over there straight away, maybe listen to a couple awesome guitar solos from satan while I'm there. You're right satan is way better.
Well how about this one? Animals are on a lower degree of sapience then humans. They are most certainly self aware, capable of thought, learning, dreaming, problemsolving etc. That's all been scientifically proven (and anyone who had a few pets can tell you it.) Yet though humans grant animals some rights, they see themselves as above and beyond them and technically justified to do virtually whatever to animals. (more)
A god would be orders of magnitude higher in mental capacities then a human. One can reasonably imagine non-god-like sapient beings far more intelligent then a human. So intelligent that a legion of mankinds greatest geniuses would barely have the collective intelligence of a toddler compared to such a creature.
Humans consider themselves masters of animals because their intelligence is of a higher order. So a god could consider itself likewise, master of humans for the same reason
I don't believe there are any gods. But if human superiority over animals is considered justified because human intellect is of a higher order. Then any beings that have an intellect on a higher order then humans would technically, by human cultural standards, be perfectly justified treating humans however they pleased.
Now that said, humans WOULD consider such beings to be very unpleasant of course.
But hey, so would a bioindustry animal consider humans. Their intelligence is simpler and so humanity feels it has the right to do this.
So I'd say the argument is perfectly logical. Something by far mentally superior to humans could, by human standards use them as they see fit, for the same reasons humans do so to less intelligent creatures.
I think the only reason people would argue against what I said further, is either emotional reasons, appeals to 'we just do things this way' and arguments that human would be equal even if the greatest human intellect would compared to these beings be like a smart parrot would be to humans. If even THAT.
So I say it goes.
Also, an OMNIPOTENT being CAN do whatever it wants. It may be a completely dick for doing so, sure but you can't prevent it.
So... your reasoning is... that we are justified in arbitrarily harming animals? For NO reason. because, you just claimed your god can do anything. meaning any ends he wants to achieve can be done WITHOUT causing suffering.
Meaning your god chooses to cause this, for NO reason.
Sidenote: "omnipotence" comes with all sorts of logical contradictions. Can god creat a suit of armor that is completely, utterly 100% indestructible?
I have to say that the political analogy does not work here because we are all relative equals in American society. We may differ in intellectual capacity as well as other personal triats, but there is no figure in place that could be said to have anything close to omnipotence or omnipresence, as a godlike figure would. To assume that god could not function as it does without our consent in a bit presumptuous. And I can't stand Christianity, so I'm no bible thumper, just saying the logic is bad.
I agree, but rather like how Jeff elaborated on it afterward: it's not that a god's power is contingent upon our respect for it, but our respect is contingent upon its "playing by the rules." As he said, this kind of figure in political history is called a tyrant. Of course, we don't have any knowledge regarding a god, and therefore it may in fact be a tyrant.
It's not a good atheist argument, but is a good antireligious argument.
The point is moot. How does dad know that God exists? Who cares about who abides by rules and who doesn't. Where is his proof that God exists? I mean repeatable, testable, solid evidence (not just the bible and anecdote). The argument is off point. Dad believes in a god that can do anything it wants. Fine, that still does not prove that that God exists.
@L571J I find it strange how theists think they know the traits of something that is unknowable(other than thinking so). When atheists make the opposite assertion theists say its wrong. Same holds true for the Christian bible only Christians(possibly same for other religions)can know the meaning and don't take it out of context. And they say atheists are arrogant.
@robvlob Your point is well taken and absolutely accurate. It is a great racket they have going. Make up anything they want then say it is true because they say it is true. No evidence, no logic, nothing but someone's assertion that God exists and that he/she/it/them wants human worship and wants it in a specific manner. Amazing what indoctrination can cause a person to overlook.
The God of Abraham is the ultimate tyrant. He makes up rules capriciously, and threatens us with eternal torture if exercise our supposed free will or if we are skeptical of his existence, although he deigns not to provide the slightest shred of proof, even though he is all-powerful and could do so with a mere thought. He supervises us day and night, and there is no such thing as freedom, or privacy or free will.
Humans never cease to amaze me. Not only do people think that they are the ONLY life form in the ENTIRE universe, but they think a God exists just for them. The purpose of this God is to answer their prayers and to constantly be preoccupied with their well-being.
It's clear to me that man created God in his own image, and conveniently endowed him with traits that benefit humans at the expense of everything else in the universe.
I'd ask her dad what he means with existence and God, because force in our universe cannot exist without matter, if God wants to act within our universe he'd still have to be made out of matter, that would most likely make him visible, and the matter would have to abide to the laws as it EXISTS in our universe.
Alright thats a hard one to grasp,
I'd probably just say when asked: "I know, imaginary beings are only restrained by the limit of our imagination".
If you have an idea in your head and you've set this idea above all the rules, logic, and limitations applicable by humans - effectively blocking yourself off from any argument or criticism - how do you possibly know you stand in relation to reality? Do you think such willful ignorance is in good judgment? Should the courts follow your lead? In any case the person has gone mad. With an idea is in your head that is impervious to logic and reason, you can rightly be called insane.
that's why science will always be more attractive to intellegent people than religion.
If you see a scientist, that spent 10 years prooving something and finaly a collegue brings the proof against it, hugging the one who practically made 10 years of his work worthless, thanking him for showing him the truth, no religious experience can beat that!
a real scientist is willing to drop any believe if it proofs wrong. A believer will drop any fact if it contradicts his believe.
If God can "do whatever he want" if he is truly beyond *all* limitations -- then can God do evil? Can God destroy himself? Can God make another God more powerful than himself? Can God make 2 + 2 = 17? Can God cause the shortest distance between two points (in Euclidian space) to be a parabola rather than a straight line?
I suspect that theists would start stumbling around the answers to those questions.
You know Sonofluger I've thought that to myself many times. I don't think anyone as ever come across a dumb atheist before. There all well spoken, articulate, bright people. I can't say the same for theist. There someone who goes by the name edward current who made a video called the god delusional index. the higher you score the more delusional you are. Atheist usually score very low as for theist(you already know). I truely believe that religion hinders the brain and peoples critical thinking.
@Wordlaw12 even though it can be a bit of a chore to get through, Daniel Dennet's book "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a natural phenomena" is exceptional in its breakdown of religion. a highly recommended read for those with a taste for non-fiction.
There are plenty of dumb atheists, and plenty of intelligent theists. You just see more idiotic theists because the devout aren't afraid to parade their stupidity in front of the entire world. We atheists are incredibly heterogeneous, so a common label (such as intelligent) doesn't fit us all. However, I have discovered many atheists who make very poor or wrong arguments over the Internet.
Said he was a tyrant if that's how he works, and that he does have to follow the rules if he wants to get their attention. That had plenty to do with the statement.
@Dionysus187 That makes no sense. "Rules" are a construct of the human imagination largely based on the reality of this world to the extent that we know it.
It makes no sense to say god would be a tyrant if he didn't have to follow rules.
It is pretty simplistic and naive to try to compare god to our human system of government.
Didn't say it was a good answer, just saying they did in fact addressed her point.
Human society tends to see tyrants as universally bad. We can only judge things by our perception, personally I see giving things exceptions because they MIGHT be able to perceive 'better' than humans as unacceptable, especially if that higher perception can not be proven. Human perception can only be compared and seen as narrow to crap we come up and say its vaguely 'more' than ours.
I'm sorry, but if you think theists will consider that 'rulers rule with the consent of the people' thing applicable to God, you have to be an idiot.
God was invented at a time when the people had to do what they where told by their rulers or got their head cut off. So they created God to be like said rulers. Absolute authority, if you have complaints you burn in hell, that's the idea with the abrahamic God.
I mean I'm irreligious myself, but theists just aren't going to swallow the idea that God needs consent.
If I think up a hypothetical omnipotent God then not even *I* am going to swallow that American Government argument, and I don't even believe one exists.
If you're the single omnipotent being in the multiverse then for better or worse you can, if you so desire, be an absolute ruler, because there's nothing much that can stop you from being such. And that's what we KNOW the theists believe.
I asked this once of a preacher. "If I came to your home with an uzi and told you to either let me live with you or I will shoot you." "Would you praise me and call me good for giving you those choices?" .....No, you would think I was a crazy person and you would either agree to let me live twith you out of fear of me killing you or you may try to over power me and take my gun. But you certainly would not worship me, say you love me and claim I love you!" LOL
You are playing your father's game by letting him even discribe his god. He has to prove his god is there before he can say what his god can and cannot do.
If you want to play on his level then: Tell your father that you have a god that is above his god. Your god took a shit and his god came out.
That's the problem, he doesn't 'need' to conform to our petty system of proof and science because he is all powerful. It's a BS argument. Luckily anyone else can do the same like some else suggested. Just say well I have a god and he doesn't have to conform to your god, and he is infinity times better and stronger and told me your god is smelly so nyah nyah nyah nyah
Actually if there where to be a god, it's not necessarily under any particular obligation to do anything beyond it's own will. But that's not really the point.
The point is that there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of any gods.
Although if I was a god, why would I care at all about some pompous shaven chimpanzee's and their insignificant little mudball speck. Do YOU care about a particular amoeba alot?
I'd like to ask please, where do you get your stance from, concerning this comment:
"must have another reason that being told that god is good"
I just want t know where the definition comes from for you guys, is it Christianity that inspires this thought?
What is your opinion on an undefinable image of a creating force, rather the purpose of communicating or reaching to this force is to a force for good.
So explained "please god" becomes "any force of goodness in the universe". No definition
Hope the point is in here - sorry I find it hard to get the thoughts out sometimes. I appreciate any reply and am enjoying the challenge of your videos, though I think on the whole we just see the world through differently coloured tinted glasses. ;)
As a believer - I have had the satan/god scenario, how do you know who you follow experience and all I can say is that - i'm only a believer in a creating force. I refuse at this point to try and make a picture of clarity in my mind. I think accepting a human limit if this makes sense.
For RULES ; all I can add, is from my perspective. I can only hope to ever understand a little of that outer force EVER. But what I DO know is what I can experience within my human limits.
More on the books, rules. I think it's extremely unwise to put books, priests - before of what religion/creator means to you. Or whatever it is that you feel affects our lives in a positive way (which I assume is what many religious and non-religious people want to give in this life).
Though i'm probably wrong and am just another human with a view.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Some atheists have done their homework, gone through the intellectual arguments for and against the existence of God, and arrived at a thoughtful atheistic position but many have no real understanding of what Christianity is.
For anyone who wants to learn more about the other side of the debate, my channel has some info that you might find interesting.
The other side of the debate? You must be kidding me, here is both sides. The problem is that "your side" can not stand the test of reason and logic, so you want people to listen to propaganda to convert them. There is no better way then to listen to both sides at once, it is hard to spot all the fallacies for yourselfe.
I had an argument about God being above rules and limitations. If you point out to a theist that God (who also goes by the name of Jealousy) tells us that he doesn't lie, and that love isn't jealous, and He is love, then isn't he a hypocrite? They'll just say "God can do what he wants."
But then you say "God can't reveal himself to us for us to worship him?" They'll just say "God wants people to love him out of faith, that's the only way we'll truly love him." So God does follow rules!
Another Catholic turned atheist! Me, the caller, George Carlin, Bill Maher. I suspected this might be a thing, and then Bob Odenkirk says, "I was raised Catholic, so of course I'm an atheist," so now I am convinced it is a thing.
Wow you just said exactly what I was thinking about having been raised Catholic. I often wondered if I would even be an Atheist today if I had been raised by fundamental holy rollers. I'm greatful I wasn't. What you said is so true, I was taught not to take the bible litterally, that it was wriitten by very primative men who thought the world was flat etc, etc, Not enough room for me to go into details, but you already know anyway so.
It's sad-funny how the fundamentalists go after Catholics the way the go after atheists. There would be no Christianity w/o the Catholics - I mean for 1600 or so years it was the only Christian religion. The fundamentalist are hell bent against learning anything about anything! Really pathetic. You can't argue with them, because you can't prove anything because they never check the facts.
I read in a periodically published statistical almanac of religion dated sometime in the late 90s early 00s that something like 16% of priests admit being atheists. Catholicism is heading down the same path as Judaism, soon it will just be a cultural marker and not a real religion in the traditional sense.
The fundies on YT already believe Catholics aren't Christians. Well, the nice ones anyway. Which is absurd, because there would have been no bible or Christianity without the Catholics. I was beyond surprised to learn that the Catholics had the bible before the Jews. I always assumed Christians took the OT from the Jews and added to it, but the Jews took the Catholic OT and worked from there.
Well, modern Judaism has sort of shattered in the aftermath of the Holocaust. On the one hand, there is still ultra strict Hasidim and other factions that still hold literal belief, and there is a larger portion, if not an outright majority, that simply consider themselves cultural Jews. Even rabbis, like the one I spoke to at Al Asad. he man was totally secular and atheistic, but held on to Jewish tradition and ritual for cultural and aesthetic value. This is where I see Catholicism heading.
Culture, family, community, ethnic identity, aesthetics, etc. etc. You don't see any point to gathering with friends and family except in the context of a sky fairy? Surely there can be other reasons to enjoy these ceremonies and festivals?
I'm not saying that at all. I was just asking what's the point of holding on to archaic rituals that revolve around the existence of an almighty creator just so you can have a sense of community, or so you can celebrate winter solstice.
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying why not just go all the way? Community, culture, ethnic identity, aesthetics, etc, etc, would survive just fine without religion or religious ritual.
Uhm...so that you can have community? What are you not getting? You suggesting that we make up all our own new events, complete with new traditions and art and music and everything? It's just part of the culture now. Made up new traditions cut from whole cloth are seen as bizarre, look at Kwanzaa and such. These things will likely evolve into secular institutions with time, but it's not that big of a deal right now. As long as the faith goes.
We don't have to create new holidays and traditions. I put up a Christmas tree every year and do gift exchanges, but that has nothing to do with the religious aspects of Christmas. Those those rituals/traditions are pagan in origin. Religion borrowed these holidays. If you don't believe in the religious dogma that religion inserted into these traditionally non-religious holidays, then why keep them?
We disagree on nothing. You answered your own question. What you said about Christmas is exactly why secularised Jews and Christians keep their holidays and such. You should know. You are one. I gotta say I am amazed that you are having this much trouble understanding such an absurdly simple concept.
OK. Paganism is barely what you'd call an organized religion. But fine, lets say that it is. Still doesn't change what I was saying. I was only using holidays as an example. You were talking about observing religious tradition comprehensively throughout the year so as to hold on to community ties. You also say that eventually Chistmas and Hannuka will eventually become purely secular holidays. I'm sure they will, or maybe some new religion will insert itself. All I was saying was, why wait?
Who said anything about organized? It doesn't have to be organized to be religion. Who said anything about comprehensive practice? I never said nor implied those things.
It makes me feel a bit guilty, because it seems as if because Catholics don't believe the bible is literal and aren't creationists, and don't throw reason, logic and science out the window, all of which I would put in the plus column, makes it easier to question things, which may their undoing.
ya, but you have to thanks judas for that. If Judas wouldn't be there , christianity wouldn't exist, and therefore today the world would be a better place to be?Why Judas? Why did you have to kill that man?
Dear Theo, Allow me to weigh in. Assuming that Jesus is God I will proceed. Jesus admonishes us to use violence against our enemies. Instead he urges us to forgive them. Then he charges into the temple and kung-fuz the tables of the money changers in anger. By doing this he breaks the golden rule and thus breaks his own message to us mortal pukes. If he is god and he breaks one of gods rules is he not then therefore is a sinner?
is the date of this show really old or did they just do a show on the road cause thats not the studio unless i am wrong :)
kalin1993 3 weeks ago
@kalin1993 The studio has moved a few times. I might be wrong but I think this was in Matt Dillahunty's home.
gromby 2 weeks ago
If there is a god it is pratchett.
BuggerOffBuddy 2 months ago
If God was subject to rules, then He wouldn't be God, anymore, right? That's what the definition of God is, a Being above all rules and limitations.
iamsamiam77 2 months ago
@iamsamiam77 The problem is that the definition of God is so nebulous and varies so much from person-to-person that God can basically become whatever He needs to be in order to escape logical paradoxes, rational inquiry, etc.
TheGeneralCritic 1 month ago
@TheGeneralCritic There's something called "God's Word" where He tells you everything... Even in it He says that He invented logic and rules over it.
iamsamiam77 1 month ago
@iamsamiam77 So which version of "god's word" are we to credit? The Bible? The Quran? The Vedas? The Torah? The Bhagavadgita? The Essential Rumi?
BTW, if you're referring to the Bible with your assertion that god invented logic and rules over it, you're going to have to cite scripture and verse. Everything I've read in the Bible is against logic and reason because questioning would expose the falsity of the religion.
ciaochowbella 3 weeks ago
@iamsamiam77 If god is above rules and limitations, then why does he seek to employ mere mortals to do his work? Why does he burden us with punishing wrongdoers instead of doing it himself? Why does he allow innocent children to suffer and murderers to go free?
Oh, and hell isn't a punishment for doing wrong. All one has to do is accept Jesus and you go to heaven, regardless of who you've murdered while simple non-belief is punished no matter how good, decent and caring the non-believer is.
ciaochowbella 3 weeks ago
The god of Utensils that cause draws to get stuck was always my favorite - the premise was i believe, that anything you personify enough becoming a diefic personification
neverfearchrisishere 4 months ago
Small gods, haha love it
haohyou12 4 months ago
You can claim anything is real if the only basis for believing it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist.
mikefromwa 5 months ago 3
Where are the girls like this here in the states?
andrewh817 6 months ago 6
@andrewh817 hell if i know. she sounds cute too
isaachaze1 4 months ago
@andrewh817 around.
elfred1980 4 weeks ago
OMG I love you guys. I am reading Small Gods right now.
He has some other great things in another discworld book called Carpe Jugulum. It was a book about vampires, but it had a priest from that religion getting into theological debates with a witch character who spelled out to him what it would really mean to actually believe in a god.
It was a great book and really helped give a funny perspective towards moderates.
Silentsam7532 6 months ago
comic sans is a definite no go in this context.
lzoli18B 6 months ago
i hate how us athiests have been shunned by society. i am 14 and while there is no chance i will ever go back to believing in god i feel like for a relegion where judgement is not supposed to be given it is given a lot. why is it that we are made out to be inferior human beings just because we are smart enough to see through relegion and see the world as it really is. why is it that a greater intelect brings judgement and hate from the less intelegent people.
l4zrvids 7 months ago
@l4zrvids go to any atheist country then:]
Also, if English is not your first language, then sorry, but it's hard to listen to an argument about intellect when you can't spell intelligent:)
noaccount4 7 months ago
@noaccount4 sorry about spelling it was 3am lol but english is my main language. and there really is no such thing as an athiest country when the majority of people on earth believe in some god and about one third of them follow some form of christianity.
l4zrvids 7 months ago
@l4zrvids ....except when the large majority of that country is atheist. Then it's an atheist country.
I kinda find it funny, countries where no religion is dominant are so multicultural :D
Three quarters of the UK is Atheist;]
As a whole, yes we're a very religious planet, but I was speaking about specific countries, like australia:D
Funny thing is, most people know little about their own religion, and even fewer practice it... According to their own religion, lol:)
noaccount4 7 months ago
@noaccount4 3/4 of the UK is atheist??? Where did you get that from?
This year's census put the figure at about 20% ish and some other surveys put about 30-40% with no religious affiliation (which I think sounds about right)
Even amongst young people the figure doesn't go above 65%
TheOmegajuice 6 months ago
@TheOmegajuice reeeeeeeaaally? 'Cos I'm working with the 2008 one
noaccount4 6 months ago
@noaccount4 I personally think the number is much higher than the 20% that the census states (they put the question straight after a question about cultural identity so I imagine a lot of people put Christian as a cultural rather than religious thing)
The census is only done every 10 years so what study got the 3/4 figure? If it's credible then brilliant!
TheOmegajuice 6 months ago
@TheOmegajuice 1/4 still leaves 11 million christians just in London alone (just me guessing:), It's just a rough estimate, source from a government survey published in the metro a while back;]
noaccount4 6 months ago
@noaccount4 (I assume you meant to say england alone, there isn't 44 million people living in London lol)
I think that's probably not quite right but anyway your point about the UK being an Atheist friendly country (at least relatively speaking) is accurate so I'm drop it :-)
TheOmegajuice 6 months ago
@TheOmegajuice Lol yeah, I derped that up xD
noaccount4 6 months ago
God is beyond human-understanding. The best we can hope for is reconfirmed interpretation of 'crying babies' (and other unreasonable sounds). Call the babies 'Bodhisattvas'
mythmanjay 7 months ago in playlist At Which to Stare
@mythmanjay you trolling?
noaccount4 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@noaccount4 if you like
mythmanjay 7 months ago
Terry Pratchett is awesome.
unimportantpersonxx 8 months ago
Hot voiced Atheist is probably Hot.
EdgePitSwing 8 months ago
It´s really dumb to say somebody won an argument by throwing all logic out the window, like her father does. You can´t say you are logical by saying logic does not apply to god or that god created logic like he wanted it to be, in that case logic isn´t universal and you can hardly say your standpoint is logical if you don´t think logic is universal.
rokkvi1 8 months ago
This whole video seems a little misguided. At the beginning, the caller seems to be talking about God not having to obey physical laws (given that she mentions his existence, not his rule), while the host instead assumes that she's talking about moral laws.
EmperorZ19 8 months ago
This argument is stupid. If God's rules are being 'imposed' on us, how is it that people are allowed to break them?
iambobdole1 8 months ago
Nine Inch Nails! Fuck yes!
AncientGamer1 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
It's funny how all of the atheist callers are well spoken and can actually relate a coherent point...Not my original post but a good point nonetheless
enysp 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
It's funny how all of the atheist callers are well spoken and can actually relate a coherent point...
enysp 9 months ago
Oh Jeff Dee you do entertain me so! Trying to put a being of the magnitude of the false god of christianity on the level of an elected official. If such a being existed, it might be a tyrant, but if you create something, TRULY create it, you have the right to do with it what you will.
jkellybrew 9 months ago
@jkellybrew No you don't. You do not have the right to enslave your children. It is actually immoral to create something, even at the level of genetic engineering, and then cause that entity to suffer.
GowanBray 8 months ago
@jkellybrew No, you don't.
Setting aside the issue of whether you could, because obviously you could, it would not make it right. If you bring harm to a self concious individual, for no reason other than your own entertainment, then that is wrong regardless of the origin of that concious individual. It matters not if you or god are its creator, if its wrong, its wrong.
sharkjack 8 months ago
If God doesn't abide by rules or ideas that humans can understand with some degree of consistency, then this God is ethically irrelevant.
VerboseMinimalist 9 months ago
Good and bad is only in our perception, it is an abstract thing which doesn't follow a rule.
TearsOfWar1 10 months ago
This argument is only useful if you can first prove there is a god. So to the girl in the video: ask your father how his argument proves that Christianity is true. If he can't prove that, then all other arguments are completely useless. So what if they claim that their God is above all rules and limitations? I could claim many things about creatures that I have never proven to exist. This is an unfair discussion to begin with. Prove that a god exists, and if you can't, you're being irrational.
dutchbb1979 10 months ago 3
@dutchbb1979 very interesting, i just had someone today try to prove to me that god exist by telling me that theres no way the human body could be so complex without a creator. Yes the human body is very complex, but science without a doubt explains that. Someone please explain to me how the human body proves gods existence?
jujuluvification 9 months ago
@jujuluvification If the human body proves that god exists, then god sure is one wacky amateur.
dutchbb1979 9 months ago 2
@dutchbb1979 YES THANK YOU!!!
jujuluvification 9 months ago
If God is above all rules and limitations, then that means he is an absolute tyrant, and we have no freedom whatsoever, and are in effect, abject slaves without any free will or any hope of freedom, even after we die. How can we be accountable for anything? And how can anyone possibly think that the concept of "free will" is compatible with the concept of an "all-powerful" God? The two concepts are mutually exclusive. Big Brother is watching you!!
DandAinTac 10 months ago 2
@DandAinTac I totally agree with you.
bnbalenda 8 months ago
She should have her father call the show.
gulbirk 10 months ago
It's true. God is unconscionable . Any way we explain God limits God and God is unlimited. Belief in God does not come from how things work that we cant explain but " Why" things work the way they do. Hence with "God" we can explain the meaning of life. And that is the Magic. Peace.
affluence8 10 months ago
@affluence8 No, we have working models for how quite alot of things work.
And heres 2 diferent meanings of life.
1- the biological meaning is to reproduce, every living creature has that born in purpouse.
2- the meaning of your life is what YOU decide it is.
Sweddude 10 months ago
@affluence8 You can't explain anything with something that is never proven to exist in any logical manner. There is no reason to believe in a god. Therefore there is no reason to explain things by pointing to a god. The god thing is just a cop out when some people don't like that they can't explain something, which is stupid, because you do not learn or solve anything by doing that. Accept your ignorance, accept science, and learn. Peace.
dutchbb1979 10 months ago 14
@affluence8 please explain???
jujuluvification 9 months ago
Well said, Russell, well said!!! Christians always make shit up and call it "rules" or "logic".
gupsphoo 1 year ago 3
Sweet, Im from Calgary
Cujoh 1 year ago
Who would win in a fight GOD or Chuck Norris?
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HA! trick quaetion, GOD IS CHUCK NORRIS!
alexander33345 1 year ago
@alexander33345 pff, you have it all wrong, Chuck Norris is not only a name, its also a term superior to god!
InfindecimalSlice 1 year ago
@InfindecimalSlice- Fuck Chuck Norris.
besidemymind 1 year ago
@alexander33345 The answer is Popeye the sailor man! *poot poot*
CalicoVall 1 year ago
@alexander33345- Fuck Chuck Norris.
besidemymind 1 year ago
I understand why they picked "The Hand That Feeds" by NIN, but they should have picked something from Year Zero. Much better album by NIN.
HeavenlyRa 1 year ago
@HeavenlyRa Actually they should have picked Heresy from Downward Spiral
harkying99 1 year ago
terry pratchett is god
333derick333 1 year ago
Guys stop slamming God, he has the best weed!
MrReasonFTW 1 year ago
@MrReasonFTW Satan's weed is better lol
darklordrandy 1 year ago
@darklordrandy Really? We'll I'll head on over there straight away, maybe listen to a couple awesome guitar solos from satan while I'm there. You're right satan is way better.
MrReasonFTW 1 year ago
I live in Calgary cool!!!!
Tethloach1 1 year ago
Well how about this one? Animals are on a lower degree of sapience then humans. They are most certainly self aware, capable of thought, learning, dreaming, problemsolving etc. That's all been scientifically proven (and anyone who had a few pets can tell you it.) Yet though humans grant animals some rights, they see themselves as above and beyond them and technically justified to do virtually whatever to animals. (more)
Shavarnarak 1 year ago
(More)
A god would be orders of magnitude higher in mental capacities then a human. One can reasonably imagine non-god-like sapient beings far more intelligent then a human. So intelligent that a legion of mankinds greatest geniuses would barely have the collective intelligence of a toddler compared to such a creature.
Humans consider themselves masters of animals because their intelligence is of a higher order. So a god could consider itself likewise, master of humans for the same reason
Shavarnarak 1 year ago
@Shavarnarak
I don't believe there are any gods. But if human superiority over animals is considered justified because human intellect is of a higher order. Then any beings that have an intellect on a higher order then humans would technically, by human cultural standards, be perfectly justified treating humans however they pleased.
Shavarnarak 1 year ago
@Shavarnarak
Now that said, humans WOULD consider such beings to be very unpleasant of course.
But hey, so would a bioindustry animal consider humans. Their intelligence is simpler and so humanity feels it has the right to do this.
So I'd say the argument is perfectly logical. Something by far mentally superior to humans could, by human standards use them as they see fit, for the same reasons humans do so to less intelligent creatures.
Shavarnarak 1 year ago
@Shavarnarak
I think the only reason people would argue against what I said further, is either emotional reasons, appeals to 'we just do things this way' and arguments that human would be equal even if the greatest human intellect would compared to these beings be like a smart parrot would be to humans. If even THAT.
So I say it goes.
Also, an OMNIPOTENT being CAN do whatever it wants. It may be a completely dick for doing so, sure but you can't prevent it.
Shavarnarak 1 year ago
@Shavarnarak
So... your reasoning is... that we are justified in arbitrarily harming animals? For NO reason. because, you just claimed your god can do anything. meaning any ends he wants to achieve can be done WITHOUT causing suffering.
Meaning your god chooses to cause this, for NO reason.
Sidenote: "omnipotence" comes with all sorts of logical contradictions. Can god creat a suit of armor that is completely, utterly 100% indestructible?
blackplatypus 1 year ago
'Small gods' is excellent.
Gorteenminogue 1 year ago
Allison sounds hott.
HeavenlyRa 1 year ago
@HeavenlyRa I was going to say the same thing.
easytoremember0 1 year ago
the advice was really useless.... poor allison, he dad will still be blindly adament that god is above all this
kfetter16 1 year ago
I love Terry Pratchett, Small Gods was a really good book too.
westfalla 1 year ago
"Logistical"?
Really?
FacelessDeviant 1 year ago
NIN FTW
YetAnthony 1 year ago
I have to say that the political analogy does not work here because we are all relative equals in American society. We may differ in intellectual capacity as well as other personal triats, but there is no figure in place that could be said to have anything close to omnipotence or omnipresence, as a godlike figure would. To assume that god could not function as it does without our consent in a bit presumptuous. And I can't stand Christianity, so I'm no bible thumper, just saying the logic is bad.
Schwartzhund 1 year ago
@Schwartzhund
I agree, but rather like how Jeff elaborated on it afterward: it's not that a god's power is contingent upon our respect for it, but our respect is contingent upon its "playing by the rules." As he said, this kind of figure in political history is called a tyrant. Of course, we don't have any knowledge regarding a god, and therefore it may in fact be a tyrant.
It's not a good atheist argument, but is a good antireligious argument.
ultramerton 1 year ago
The point is moot. How does dad know that God exists? Who cares about who abides by rules and who doesn't. Where is his proof that God exists? I mean repeatable, testable, solid evidence (not just the bible and anecdote). The argument is off point. Dad believes in a god that can do anything it wants. Fine, that still does not prove that that God exists.
L571J 1 year ago
@L571J I find it strange how theists think they know the traits of something that is unknowable(other than thinking so). When atheists make the opposite assertion theists say its wrong. Same holds true for the Christian bible only Christians(possibly same for other religions)can know the meaning and don't take it out of context. And they say atheists are arrogant.
robvlob 1 year ago
@robvlob Your point is well taken and absolutely accurate. It is a great racket they have going. Make up anything they want then say it is true because they say it is true. No evidence, no logic, nothing but someone's assertion that God exists and that he/she/it/them wants human worship and wants it in a specific manner. Amazing what indoctrination can cause a person to overlook.
L571J 1 year ago
The God of Abraham is the ultimate tyrant. He makes up rules capriciously, and threatens us with eternal torture if exercise our supposed free will or if we are skeptical of his existence, although he deigns not to provide the slightest shred of proof, even though he is all-powerful and could do so with a mere thought. He supervises us day and night, and there is no such thing as freedom, or privacy or free will.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac ....well said!
WFCoW 1 year ago
Calgary, woot!
tml4873 1 year ago
logistical? spa
nilbud 1 year ago
There are all kinds of arguments outside of reason that support God. We call that kind of argument "irrational."
pumkinpi2 1 year ago 3
OMG Small Gods is such a good book xD
Nikunai 1 year ago
Wait, she's from Calgary and doesn't come across many fundamentalist Christians? She lives in fundie-central imo. <cue banjo music>
RobnJake 1 year ago
I want to be friends with the caller.
whyiaskyou79 1 year ago
Pandy? Is that you calling?
knineu02 1 year ago
Dee is such a dumbass, more Dilly, less Dee.
shangerboy 1 year ago
Humans never cease to amaze me. Not only do people think that they are the ONLY life form in the ENTIRE universe, but they think a God exists just for them. The purpose of this God is to answer their prayers and to constantly be preoccupied with their well-being.
It's clear to me that man created God in his own image, and conveniently endowed him with traits that benefit humans at the expense of everything else in the universe.
One might say that God is man idealized.
ejdf870 1 year ago 12
I'd ask her dad what he means with existence and God, because force in our universe cannot exist without matter, if God wants to act within our universe he'd still have to be made out of matter, that would most likely make him visible, and the matter would have to abide to the laws as it EXISTS in our universe.
Alright thats a hard one to grasp,
I'd probably just say when asked: "I know, imaginary beings are only restrained by the limit of our imagination".
//Fero
FeroGotBalls 1 year ago
she won the argument to any reasonable person people you say god gave you your brain then fucking USE IT
patrickledford420 1 year ago
u cannot reason with christians there already christians u know there brain is already fried
patrickledford420 1 year ago
Pratchett is a fucking genius!
The book's Small Gods. My favorite next to Pyramids and Night Watch.
Vehementi 2 years ago
If you have an idea in your head and you've set this idea above all the rules, logic, and limitations applicable by humans - effectively blocking yourself off from any argument or criticism - how do you possibly know you stand in relation to reality? Do you think such willful ignorance is in good judgment? Should the courts follow your lead? In any case the person has gone mad. With an idea is in your head that is impervious to logic and reason, you can rightly be called insane.
NearVSMello 2 years ago 2
that's why science will always be more attractive to intellegent people than religion.
If you see a scientist, that spent 10 years prooving something and finaly a collegue brings the proof against it, hugging the one who practically made 10 years of his work worthless, thanking him for showing him the truth, no religious experience can beat that!
a real scientist is willing to drop any believe if it proofs wrong. A believer will drop any fact if it contradicts his believe.
liquidminds 1 year ago 18
If God can "do whatever he want" if he is truly beyond *all* limitations -- then can God do evil? Can God destroy himself? Can God make another God more powerful than himself? Can God make 2 + 2 = 17? Can God cause the shortest distance between two points (in Euclidian space) to be a parabola rather than a straight line?
I suspect that theists would start stumbling around the answers to those questions.
prodprod 2 years ago 5
curious how all of the atheist callers are well spoken and can actually relate a coherent point.
sonofluger 2 years ago 114
that is because atheists USE their brain
adirm18 2 years ago 4
You know Sonofluger I've thought that to myself many times. I don't think anyone as ever come across a dumb atheist before. There all well spoken, articulate, bright people. I can't say the same for theist. There someone who goes by the name edward current who made a video called the god delusional index. the higher you score the more delusional you are. Atheist usually score very low as for theist(you already know). I truely believe that religion hinders the brain and peoples critical thinking.
Wordlaw12 1 year ago
@Wordlaw12 even though it can be a bit of a chore to get through, Daniel Dennet's book "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a natural phenomena" is exceptional in its breakdown of religion. a highly recommended read for those with a taste for non-fiction.
sonofluger 1 year ago
@Wordlaw12
There are plenty of dumb atheists, and plenty of intelligent theists. You just see more idiotic theists because the devout aren't afraid to parade their stupidity in front of the entire world. We atheists are incredibly heterogeneous, so a common label (such as intelligent) doesn't fit us all. However, I have discovered many atheists who make very poor or wrong arguments over the Internet.
ultramerton 1 year ago 3
@ultramerton so true.
supersmash43 1 year ago
@sonofluger there are religious people like this, its just the fundies that are total retards.
robertwc82 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@sonofluger: "curious how all of the atheist callers are well spoken and can actually relate a coherent point."
Actually, it's not curious at all if you think about it. :)
mikefromwa 9 months ago
@sonofluger add ignorance for happy troll time
noaccount4 7 months ago
I'm sorry, I usually like these videos, but her point was never really addressed.
Her dad says there is no reason that God needs to follow any rules. None of their responses even had anything to do with her statement.
moulingalette 2 years ago
@moulingalette
Said he was a tyrant if that's how he works, and that he does have to follow the rules if he wants to get their attention. That had plenty to do with the statement.
Dionysus187 2 years ago
@Dionysus187 That makes no sense. "Rules" are a construct of the human imagination largely based on the reality of this world to the extent that we know it.
It makes no sense to say god would be a tyrant if he didn't have to follow rules.
It is pretty simplistic and naive to try to compare god to our human system of government.
moulingalette 2 years ago
Didn't say it was a good answer, just saying they did in fact addressed her point.
Human society tends to see tyrants as universally bad. We can only judge things by our perception, personally I see giving things exceptions because they MIGHT be able to perceive 'better' than humans as unacceptable, especially if that higher perception can not be proven. Human perception can only be compared and seen as narrow to crap we come up and say its vaguely 'more' than ours.
Dionysus187 2 years ago
what about the ten commandments there his rules so he doesn't follow them i know one is thou shall not kill and god has killed millions
alterdbyme 2 years ago 4
I'm sorry, but if you think theists will consider that 'rulers rule with the consent of the people' thing applicable to God, you have to be an idiot.
God was invented at a time when the people had to do what they where told by their rulers or got their head cut off. So they created God to be like said rulers. Absolute authority, if you have complaints you burn in hell, that's the idea with the abrahamic God.
Shavarnarak 2 years ago
I mean I'm irreligious myself, but theists just aren't going to swallow the idea that God needs consent.
If I think up a hypothetical omnipotent God then not even *I* am going to swallow that American Government argument, and I don't even believe one exists.
If you're the single omnipotent being in the multiverse then for better or worse you can, if you so desire, be an absolute ruler, because there's nothing much that can stop you from being such. And that's what we KNOW the theists believe.
Shavarnarak 2 years ago 2
I asked this once of a preacher. "If I came to your home with an uzi and told you to either let me live with you or I will shoot you." "Would you praise me and call me good for giving you those choices?" .....No, you would think I was a crazy person and you would either agree to let me live twith you out of fear of me killing you or you may try to over power me and take my gun. But you certainly would not worship me, say you love me and claim I love you!" LOL
AssilemakaMelissa 2 years ago
canadian chick sounds rideable.
IrelandRaven 2 years ago
OHMY GOD. They're Pratchett fans!?! He's read SMALL GODS?!?!?! That's AMAZING.
I love that book!!!
reluctantlydancing 2 years ago
STOP MOCKING GOD!!! I love him. He gives great head.
dave4248 2 years ago 80
@dave4248 I think his head sucks to be honest.
controllerbrain 2 years ago
@dave4248 : Hey and he has a divine tongue as well winks : )
selenadelos 1 year ago
@dave4248 Godhead?
GermanChocolateCake 1 year ago
@dave4248 so does my mom, but i mock her too.
Delinexwow 1 year ago
@dave4248 WAT?
l4dlovemaker2000 1 year ago
@dave4248 Ted Haggard recomend Him to you? LOL
CalicoVall 1 year ago
@dave4248 funny stuff.....does seem that most christians not only love god but are IN love with him.
jujuluvification 9 months ago
You are playing your father's game by letting him even discribe his god. He has to prove his god is there before he can say what his god can and cannot do.
If you want to play on his level then: Tell your father that you have a god that is above his god. Your god took a shit and his god came out.
ndyt 2 years ago
@ndyt
That's the problem, he doesn't 'need' to conform to our petty system of proof and science because he is all powerful. It's a BS argument. Luckily anyone else can do the same like some else suggested. Just say well I have a god and he doesn't have to conform to your god, and he is infinity times better and stronger and told me your god is smelly so nyah nyah nyah nyah
Dionysus187 2 years ago 3
Dionysus187, you are a good example of religion causing brain damage.
How do we know that Christians are delusional?
watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ
Christianity Causes Brain Damage
watch?v=-Q7CUz9sWlQ
ndyt 2 years ago
Actually if there where to be a god, it's not necessarily under any particular obligation to do anything beyond it's own will. But that's not really the point.
The point is that there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of any gods.
Although if I was a god, why would I care at all about some pompous shaven chimpanzee's and their insignificant little mudball speck. Do YOU care about a particular amoeba alot?
Didn't think so.
Shavarnarak 2 years ago
It's like the song "USS Make Sh*t Up" by Voltaire. "God can do anything"? Well so can the crew of the Enterprise!
Scardy 2 years ago
So what?
boyinthedrain 2 years ago
I would like to think that without humans this God has no meaning.
MrPerseus2009 2 years ago
There are tyrants in America.
blapperz 2 years ago
I'd like to ask please, where do you get your stance from, concerning this comment:
"must have another reason that being told that god is good"
I just want t know where the definition comes from for you guys, is it Christianity that inspires this thought?
What is your opinion on an undefinable image of a creating force, rather the purpose of communicating or reaching to this force is to a force for good.
So explained "please god" becomes "any force of goodness in the universe". No definition
JWingTsun13Blues 2 years ago
Hope the point is in here - sorry I find it hard to get the thoughts out sometimes. I appreciate any reply and am enjoying the challenge of your videos, though I think on the whole we just see the world through differently coloured tinted glasses. ;)
Peace/love combo, take care.
JWingTsun13Blues 2 years ago
As a believer - I have had the satan/god scenario, how do you know who you follow experience and all I can say is that - i'm only a believer in a creating force. I refuse at this point to try and make a picture of clarity in my mind. I think accepting a human limit if this makes sense.
For RULES ; all I can add, is from my perspective. I can only hope to ever understand a little of that outer force EVER. But what I DO know is what I can experience within my human limits.
Peace guys.
JWingTsun13Blues 2 years ago
More on the books, rules. I think it's extremely unwise to put books, priests - before of what religion/creator means to you. Or whatever it is that you feel affects our lives in a positive way (which I assume is what many religious and non-religious people want to give in this life).
Though i'm probably wrong and am just another human with a view.
JWingTsun13Blues 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Jesus said: I am the light of the world
markch9v23 2 years ago
An unsupported and unsupportable assertion if there ever was one one.
I say: I'm the hot sauce of the world. So WHAT???
rumble54daddyo 2 years ago
RAmen!
Sutskoen 2 years ago
Catholicism is the dumb mans religions. They tell you what prayer to say and when! Yeah that is from one's heart! Religion is so silly!
Einsteinian99 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Some atheists have done their homework, gone through the intellectual arguments for and against the existence of God, and arrived at a thoughtful atheistic position but many have no real understanding of what Christianity is.
For anyone who wants to learn more about the other side of the debate, my channel has some info that you might find interesting.
atheistfriends 2 years ago
Athiestfriends
You are full of shit.
Nihm420 2 years ago 2
The other side of the debate? You must be kidding me, here is both sides. The problem is that "your side" can not stand the test of reason and logic, so you want people to listen to propaganda to convert them. There is no better way then to listen to both sides at once, it is hard to spot all the fallacies for yourselfe.
moegreen2 2 years ago
I had an argument about God being above rules and limitations. If you point out to a theist that God (who also goes by the name of Jealousy) tells us that he doesn't lie, and that love isn't jealous, and He is love, then isn't he a hypocrite? They'll just say "God can do what he wants."
But then you say "God can't reveal himself to us for us to worship him?" They'll just say "God wants people to love him out of faith, that's the only way we'll truly love him." So God does follow rules!
NotCaringJustRelaxin 2 years ago
Another Catholic turned atheist! Me, the caller, George Carlin, Bill Maher. I suspected this might be a thing, and then Bob Odenkirk says, "I was raised Catholic, so of course I'm an atheist," so now I am convinced it is a thing.
TheSoSoAgnostic 2 years ago 2
Wow you just said exactly what I was thinking about having been raised Catholic. I often wondered if I would even be an Atheist today if I had been raised by fundamental holy rollers. I'm greatful I wasn't. What you said is so true, I was taught not to take the bible litterally, that it was wriitten by very primative men who thought the world was flat etc, etc, Not enough room for me to go into details, but you already know anyway so.
MyCatMischief 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
You too! (see my reply to ctvwr.))
TheSoSoAgnostic 2 years ago
It's sad-funny how the fundamentalists go after Catholics the way the go after atheists. There would be no Christianity w/o the Catholics - I mean for 1600 or so years it was the only Christian religion. The fundamentalist are hell bent against learning anything about anything! Really pathetic. You can't argue with them, because you can't prove anything because they never check the facts.
TheSoSoAgnostic 2 years ago
I read in a periodically published statistical almanac of religion dated sometime in the late 90s early 00s that something like 16% of priests admit being atheists. Catholicism is heading down the same path as Judaism, soon it will just be a cultural marker and not a real religion in the traditional sense.
ctvwr 2 years ago
I always have a slight twinge of anxiety when I see I have a comment on these type of topics. But look at us having a thoughtful discourse.
TheSoSoAgnostic 2 years ago
The fundies on YT already believe Catholics aren't Christians. Well, the nice ones anyway. Which is absurd, because there would have been no bible or Christianity without the Catholics. I was beyond surprised to learn that the Catholics had the bible before the Jews. I always assumed Christians took the OT from the Jews and added to it, but the Jews took the Catholic OT and worked from there.
TheSoSoAgnostic 2 years ago
From knowing Jews, I can guess what you mean, but is I 'd like to hear what that path is, exactly.
TheSoSoAgnostic 2 years ago
Well, modern Judaism has sort of shattered in the aftermath of the Holocaust. On the one hand, there is still ultra strict Hasidim and other factions that still hold literal belief, and there is a larger portion, if not an outright majority, that simply consider themselves cultural Jews. Even rabbis, like the one I spoke to at Al Asad. he man was totally secular and atheistic, but held on to Jewish tradition and ritual for cultural and aesthetic value. This is where I see Catholicism heading.
ctvwr 2 years ago
If what you say is true, I have to ask: "What's the point?"
I guess I still celebrate Christmas, but Christmas and Hanukkah are just based on the winter solstice as is Easter based on the spring solstice.
avenuePad 2 years ago
Culture, family, community, ethnic identity, aesthetics, etc. etc. You don't see any point to gathering with friends and family except in the context of a sky fairy? Surely there can be other reasons to enjoy these ceremonies and festivals?
ctvwr 2 years ago 3
I'm not saying that at all. I was just asking what's the point of holding on to archaic rituals that revolve around the existence of an almighty creator just so you can have a sense of community, or so you can celebrate winter solstice.
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying why not just go all the way? Community, culture, ethnic identity, aesthetics, etc, etc, would survive just fine without religion or religious ritual.
avenuePad 2 years ago
Uhm...so that you can have community? What are you not getting? You suggesting that we make up all our own new events, complete with new traditions and art and music and everything? It's just part of the culture now. Made up new traditions cut from whole cloth are seen as bizarre, look at Kwanzaa and such. These things will likely evolve into secular institutions with time, but it's not that big of a deal right now. As long as the faith goes.
ctvwr 2 years ago
We don't have to create new holidays and traditions. I put up a Christmas tree every year and do gift exchanges, but that has nothing to do with the religious aspects of Christmas. Those those rituals/traditions are pagan in origin. Religion borrowed these holidays. If you don't believe in the religious dogma that religion inserted into these traditionally non-religious holidays, then why keep them?
In any case, we're disagreeing on minutiae.
avenuePad 2 years ago
We disagree on nothing. You answered your own question. What you said about Christmas is exactly why secularised Jews and Christians keep their holidays and such. You should know. You are one. I gotta say I am amazed that you are having this much trouble understanding such an absurdly simple concept.
ctvwr 2 years ago
BTW, paganism IS religion. These holidays have always been religious in nature.
ctvwr 2 years ago
OK. Paganism is barely what you'd call an organized religion. But fine, lets say that it is. Still doesn't change what I was saying. I was only using holidays as an example. You were talking about observing religious tradition comprehensively throughout the year so as to hold on to community ties. You also say that eventually Chistmas and Hannuka will eventually become purely secular holidays. I'm sure they will, or maybe some new religion will insert itself. All I was saying was, why wait?
avenuePad 2 years ago
And I'm about as much as a "secularized Christian" as I am a born-again atheist.
avenuePad 2 years ago
Ok.
ctvwr 2 years ago
Who said anything about organized? It doesn't have to be organized to be religion. Who said anything about comprehensive practice? I never said nor implied those things.
ctvwr 2 years ago
It makes me feel a bit guilty, because it seems as if because Catholics don't believe the bible is literal and aren't creationists, and don't throw reason, logic and science out the window, all of which I would put in the plus column, makes it easier to question things, which may their undoing.
TheSoSoAgnostic 2 years ago 2
ya, but you have to thanks judas for that. If Judas wouldn't be there , christianity wouldn't exist, and therefore today the world would be a better place to be?Why Judas? Why did you have to kill that man?
ThornsOfDarkness 2 years ago
Dear Theo, Allow me to weigh in. Assuming that Jesus is God I will proceed. Jesus admonishes us to use violence against our enemies. Instead he urges us to forgive them. Then he charges into the temple and kung-fuz the tables of the money changers in anger. By doing this he breaks the golden rule and thus breaks his own message to us mortal pukes. If he is god and he breaks one of gods rules is he not then therefore is a sinner?
Smoke weed and fight,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago