Did the Old Testament Jews believe in a triune God?

[Lad24LFC]

Jesus Christ is the chief agent of life, the agent that the true God used to create all things. Created by God THROUGH Jesus Christ. So, "Let US make man in OUR image" doesn't mean the two are the same being, it shows the order in which God chooses to do things!!

[epic103]

But to us there is but one GOD, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1Cor.8:6

For there is one GOD, and one mediator between GOD and men, the man Christ Jesus.  1Tim.2:5

That the GOD of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him. Eph.1:17

The true GOD and LORD of heaven and earth is the Almighty Father(YHWH)

[LittleSaints01]

First of all, it is important to point out the misconceptions. There were no "Old Testament Jews", the OT is a Christian understanding of the Bible, which is a compilation of writings. The original Israelites, not Jews, but Israelites, believed in a triune God. The Jews, which were the Phoenecian Caananites back then, believed in one God, which is the same God they believe in today. The Jews do not accept the triune God, of His son, period. Two different beliefs, stop trying to integrate them...

[OneCrayGuy89]

I'm a Jew, and I don't believe in a triune G-d. True story.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 Are you rabbinical, talmud or a different group? I'm just curious.

[OneCrayGuy89]

@bobo577 Netzari. I don't hold the Talmud to be divine, however there are some good teachings in it. My beliefs are similar to the Karaite sect of Judaism, but I also borrow some beliefs from Orthodox and Chassidism. But do I believe that G-d can manifest Himself and make Himself known in different forms? Yes, as was the example of the burning bush. But I do not adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity, I believe in One. No Jew that I know of believes in the Trinity.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 I see. Messianic Jews I think believe in the Trinity.

[OneCrayGuy89]

@bobo577 I'm not totally sure how the Messianics view the Trinity, the Netzarim don't adhere to that teaching- but, a lot of Messianism is just the Baptist church in Jews' clothing, so they might, but I don't know.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 There are some Messianics who are definitely of Jewish background if they raised in a Jewish background. I'd say true Messianic Jews are Jews who believe in Jesus. Gentiles who believe in Jesus however like myself are Christians. As for the Trinity, I should think most are Trinitarians and some groups are not as you mentioned earlier known as Netzarim.

[OneCrayGuy89]

@bobo577 That's false, actually. Gentiles who come to know Mashiach and live according to the Torah are Messianic, Jews who come to know Yeshua are simply still Jews. After all, the Messiah himself was Jewish, he adhered to, and taught, the Torah. Christianity, in general, teaches that following the Torah will lead to death. While that is true if you're relying on works to be saved, it's not true if you're following the Torah out of love for HaShem, which is written in 1 John 5:1-3.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 I see. But the problem is that the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. Therefore it is impossible to keep the Torah. Gentiles are told to keep away from idolatry, immorality, the strangulation of animals and the consumption of blood. Also, Jesus said if you wish someone dead you are a murderer and if you lust after a woman you are an adulterer. Most of the Old Testament laws have been fulfilled.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 The commands that are preached are the ones we need to keep. The food laws that apply are simply gluttony (I think it's not in the Torah) and consuming blood. The laws of mixed material are fulfilled as is the Sabbath, as Jesus is the Sabbath and the Lord of it. The moral commands still apply today such as don't hate, lust, steal, lie, cheat etc. If someone wants to keep the Sabbath or a day special, It's really up to them.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 What I mean by gluttony is NOT to commit gluttony.

[OneCrayGuy89]

@bobo577 By your reasoning of the new covenant, then, we would be able to consume blood. Did Jesus not also say "it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person?"

The outward commands of the Torah, according to the Bible, are still in effect- the Law is the same, the covenant is new- the new covenant is the old covenant placed within our hearts by the Ruach HaKodesh, the Holy Spirt- this is according to Jeremiah 31.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 The commandments that are carried over as orders to Gentiles are the one that need to be kept as I mentioned before. It is true Jesus did say it's what comes out of a man's mouth makes him unclean and Christians and Jews who turn to Jesus can eat all foods, Act 15 however tells us to abstain from blood, but nevertheless one can consume meat provided the blood is removed. The only principles in Christianity in regards to clothing is modest dress code and not to be a transvestite.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 One has to read the New Testament carefully to see how many of the 613 commandments of the Mosaic Covenant apply to us today and which have been fulfilled in Christ. Tithing and Sabbath are mentioned but not when speaking to Gentile believers. There is however a principle of giving and the days that people observe are a matter of individual conscience.

[OneCrayGuy89]

@bobo577 Ummm.... According to the NT, all the laws of the Torah are still applicable. 1 John 5:1-3, Romans 3:31, Acts 24:14, Matthew 5:17-20, 1 John 2:3-7, Luke 16:17.

Also, about the eating of the unclean foods, how about you read that verse in context? As Jesus was talking about washing your hands before eating, not eating unclean foods. If you read the entire Bible, it will become clear that it is one document, not two "testaments." Jesus isn't against the Torah, he taught it.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 And he fulfilled the Torah. I am aware that Jesus is talking about the Pharisee's ceremonial washing. I wasn't denying the law itself, I'm simply saying we are under the Law of Christ not the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ shows we are not under Sabbath and Tithe but the moral section is much stricter. For example, hatred of a person is murder and lusting after someone is adultery. Even divorcing AND remarrying except for martial faithfulness.

[OneCrayGuy89]

@bobo577 The Law of Christ? He made new laws, huh? Funny, I've read the Bible and nowhere does he mention any new laws. He mentions old laws, and the placement of said laws upon the heart. Also, do you know what "fulfill" means in the Greek and Hebrew sense? It doesn't make it void, as in the English sense, rather, it means to bring into full meaning- hence, "placing the Law within our hearts." We still follow the Law, we just don't suffer the punishment of death.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 I didn't say Jesus made new laws, "The Law of Christ" is found in Galatians. The New Covenent replaces the Old Covenent, both were made with Jews. Jesus. fulfill in Greek is kataluo, "to loosen down". The Law of Moses was created to show our inability to keep God's holy, upright standard. Does this mean freedom to lie, cheat or steal or covet or bow before a statue? Absolutely not. You are correct however that Jesus frees us from the penalty of death so we could have life.

[OneCrayGuy89]

@bobo577 So we agree to some extent. I just try to keep all the laws in the Torah, not to attain salvation or work my way to paradise, but instead because I love the Creator. The Torah shows us our sin, and it shows us what HaShem desires from His people. It's not a forced yoke upon us anymore, we are free to keep it, or free to stray from it- I choose to keep it. It might sound confusing, but I go back to Ecclesiastes 12:13, where it accurately sums up the Bible in it's entirety.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 The law does show us what God doesn't like. Paul said he wouldn't know what covetousness was without the law. I recommend watching David Pawson, he does a better job of this than I do.

[bobo577]

@OneCrayGuy89 Even divorcing AND remarrying except for martial faithfulness is adultery.

[Szygyify]

Bible readers arrive at Genesis 1:26 and they read that God said "Let us make…", they leap to the conclusion that God is more than one Person. There is no logical reason for this. Scripture describes God as "I", "He," "Him," "Me" thousands of times. When on a very rare occasion God says, "Let us…" it means that God, who is one person, involves others with Him. How is it that Bible readers imagine "Let us…" to mean "Let us THREE…" The verse says nothing about three members of a Godhead.

[Szygyify]

"Progressive revelation" "Redemptive History" are necessary euphemisms for deeply held highly emotional/irrational attachments to religious traditions that should be carefully scrutinized and if need be discarded. John Piper is an emotivist theologian who makes a mockery of both Judaism and Christianity. His theological bias would force us to rewrite history. He is a joke!

[Szygyify]

I just love people who throw random Biblical proof texts all taken wildly out of historical context and heavy laden with an apriori bias to turgid Trinitarian theological metaphysics as proof that the Trinity exists. No honest biblical scholar worth his salt would claim the lies that John Piper here alleges. He distorts the historical facts to fit his neatly subjective package of deceitful evangelical theological presuppositions.

[mwilson70201]

In other words the trinity was developed by 'church fathers" who were influenced by pagan philosophy. The Jews believe in the only true God of Deut. 6:4. This one God manifest himself as Father son and Holy Ghost. He is not three entities comprising one God. This one God is manifest as the Son 1 Tim. 3:16 and the Spirit 1Cor 12:7. He is the Almighty Gen 17:1, Rev. 1:8, He is hidden Isa. 45:15, Rev. 19:12, he is the Everlasting Father, the son who is given, Mighty God of Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ.

[Szygyify]

To further understand the Trinity read on the Gnostic Valentinus who influenced the Middle Platonist Trinitarian Numenius of Apamea who in turn influenced the "Chrisitan Apologist" Justin Martyr. Valentinus the Gnostic's Trinity also influenced the Theology of Origen of Alexandria who in turn influenced Basil, Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nazianzus the Cappadocian Fathers' concept of the Trinity.

[ChildofYeshua777]

The answer is...No, John!!!!

[Szygyify]

To understand the Trinity and the Triune God(head) read Pythagoras, Plato's Parmenides, and the Timaeus. Also read the works of Philo of Alexandria and Plotinus. And the works of later Platonists like Proclus and Iamblichus. Also read the works of the "Christian" Apologists Justin Martyr, Clement and Origen of Alexandria to understand their syncretic Stoic Logos Christology.

[Szygyify]

The Israelites believed in YHWH who revealed himself to his chosen people as ONE GOD! It is an insult and an outright lie to say that Moses or the prophets "believed in a Triune God but not clearly". Egyptians,Canaanites,Assyrians­,Babylonians,Persians,Macedoni­ans,Romans all pagan nations worshipped Trinities and Triune Godheads not the Jews. Neither Yeshua nor the Apostles taught the doctrine of the TRINITY!

[arfmendel1]

Progressive revelation when it comes to the Oneness of God? John Piper must be kidding! There's no such thing!

[dalek14159]

The Judeans were monotheists. As such, they did not and in fact could not believe in a triune God. There was one entity called God, not three. In fact, that entity physically lived at the Temple.

As can be seen above, the Judeans had more clarify in their concept of God than do the Christians. The Christian view of God is necessarily muddled exactly because they believe in a Father, a Son, and Caster the Holy Ghost.

[dalek14159]

@dalek14159 Wow my punch line went down the tubes (the You Tubes). I meant Casper the Holy Ghost.

[beerad0]

@dalek14159 Christians are monotheists dude...I find it puzzling how (mostly) Muslims seem to think that Christians believe in "three gods" and are somehow polytheists. It's ONE God who reveals Himself in three different ways. Maybe an analogy will help. If you took an ordinary man and sliced him into three parts, would you say each piece is a different man? No, it's three parts of the same guy. Monotheism means belief in one God, not belief in only one possible manifestation of God.

[zaphod71828]

@beerad0 If you took an ordinary man and sliced him into three parts, you'd have three lumps of decaying flesh and no living man at all. Theologians who came up with a tripartite god, one part of whom was human, were smoking something.

[beerad0]

@zaphod71828 We'll see.

[greatestgiftis]

John 12:41 Isaiah . . . saw his glory and spoke of him. This is a reference to Isa. 6:1

Micah 5:2 from of old, from ancient days. This speaks of eternal God’s incarnation in the person of Jesus Christ. It points to his millennial reign as King of kings (cf. Isa. 9:6).

it was in the scriptures from old to new, always being revealed .

john 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

hope that helps a little

[1122stardust]

HAHA. "Progressive Revelation"? So how can god blame the jews for disobedience? So the story or covenant god made continues to change? You dont need progressive revelation when god gave the law. Thats all the revelation jews need. " Here oh Israel the lord your god is one" That clearly speaks of a singular consciousness in god, not 3. Why didnt god reveal all 3 of himself in Genesis to the jews so they dont get deceived throughout the bible? So bad...

[greatestgiftis]

@1122stardust Abraham particularly saw in the continuing seed of Isaac the beginning of God’s fulfilling the covenant (Gen. 12:1–3; 15:1–21; 17:1–8; cf. 22:8) that would culminate in Christ.

[JesusgavemeHolySpiri]

"Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, THREE men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth" Genesis 18:1-2

[JesusgavemeHolySpiri]

Since then i have seen tons of visions, some awake and some in dreams as well as many other signs (did not ask, but HE is great)... email me and i can tell you more. Jesus is the truth, the life and the way... no-one comes to the FATHER except through MY LORD.. who gave me the HOLY SPIRIT after weeks of relentless asking, fasting, praying, etc.He made sure i wouldn't quit FIRST... i had to keep asking until he gave it Matthew 7:11 Luke 11:13. ITS REAL.. JESUS and GOD entered my soul... REALLY!

[NoGoodThingEverDies]

the jews who fabricated the old testament messed it all up with "I am the Lord your God who delivered you from Egypt" because science proved long ago that the jews were never even allowed inside sacred Egypt. The jews aimed to slander the Egyptians for never allowing them to participate but now the "exodus" claims have completely ruined the validity of the bible. The jewish fabricators were far too spiteful and ambitious to just leave the words safely alone as just "I am the Lord your God".

[aniboker]

My bottom line:

Whether or not you personally believe that a triune God is an objective reality, it seems evident from an honest reading of the Hebrew scriptures that its various authors did not. Suggesting that they did, "but not with clarity", strikes me as a cheeky way of believing that they did without acknowledging the absence of evidence to support the assertion.

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker The trinunity of the One YHWH is most certainly found in the Hebrew Scriptures (Torah) although it is perhaps not fully elaborated on until the coming of Jesus and the Gospel. Why do you think that the Old Testament constantly refers to God in the PLURAL. Elohim, and all the rest of it is a plural word. Why do you think God says to himself "come let US" do this and that?

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker Ask yourself, why would the Old Testament constantly say "God is ONE", shouldn't that be obvious? Even the hebrew word used for "one" in this sense literally means (plurality in One). That is why although the nature of God is so complicated, it is elaborated that he is ONE although appears to be plurality (Father-Godhead, Son-Word-Logos, Holy Ghost). Just because you do not understand it doesn't make it true. The logos is divine theos.

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker There are actually many inconsistencies regarding the nature of God in the Old Testament which can only be explained in light of the trinity. How do you think it is that no man shall see God and live, yet God did visit some people. This is clearly explained to somebody who understands the relationship between the Father and the Word the "Angel-visage of the Lord".

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker There is much evidence for Jesus in the Old Testament. Why don't you educate yourself to this fact. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."  - Isaiah 9:6

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker I see precisely where jews and muslims error, you need to read and believe the WHOLE Book to have a more full understanding of the Lord.

[aniboker]

@WorshipInTruth

I must say, you perplex me. You seem to think that the Bible is the word of God, and you claim to worship in truth, but you show no inclination towards learning the language in which the Bible was written. "Echad" is the first of the counting numbers; it means "one". The only verse in the entire corpus of Classical Hebrew literature in which it means "a plurality in one" is Deut 6:4, and only because you want it to.

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker What makes you think I have no inclination towards learning the language it was first written in? I am deeply interested in the Hebraic studies and although I doubt I will ever be fluent in Hebrew-Aramaic or Greek I do study into the original meaning of words so that I may have a better understanding of Scripture.

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker Deut 6:4 is important. "Hear, O Israel: The YHWH our God is one [Echad] LORD:" If it was speaking of merely plain numeric oneness [without plurality] than why not use "yachid"? As you admitt, "echad" is often used in reference to a unified one. Genesis 2:24 is a good example of this rule in play, "the two shall become one [echad] flesh".

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker You realize that the jews, after the rise of Christianity, actually went through Holy Scripture changing the Hebrew word for "one" from echad to yachid in Deut 6:4 and elsewhere?

So obviously this argument was enough to scare certain rabbi's. The Scripture backs up the Christian argument so it had to be changed.

[aniboker]

@WorshipInTruth

As for Isaiah 9:6, have you read Psalms 29:1? What does it say in your Bible version? The King James Bible reads "O ye mighty", but the Hebrew means "sons of gods". That's because "el" can mean "prince" as well as God, which makes your proof (if that's what it was meant to be?) pretty simplistic. Also, if you could actually read the language that you're writing about, you'll note that "mighty god/prince" is punctuated as the subject: "the mighty god called his name...", etc

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker Not sure how Psalms 29:1 is relevant to this discussion. What is your point? I know what el means, it simply means "lord" and is used in reference to any lord whether the Most High YHWH or a wordly prince. In our English Bibles, LORD is used for YHWH and God is used for Lord if you catch my drift, the translators of the English Bible were not ignorant of the Hebrew.

[aniboker]

@WorshipInTruth

Of course, all this is irrelevant. Even if Isaiah 9:6 means that his name will actually be "mighty god", the verse is only testifying to the coming of an apocalyptic messiah, and it is still up to you to adopt the belief that this is Jesus. At the end of the day, while I appreciate the existence of your faith, I'd advise that you learn a little bit more about it before you try so inelegantly to force it upon others. Rightly are the simple so called.

[WorshipInTruth]

@aniboker When have I ever attempted to "force" my view upon anybody? True Christians do not believe in such things, God saves his elect. It seems to me that you are the one who is ignorant of Christianity. I accept the Torah (Hebrew Masoretic Text) as divinely inspired Scripture. It is you who are ignorant of the full truth as you reject the B'rit Chadasha.

[aniboker]

I'm not intending to argue with anybody but, irrespective of whether or not you agree with John's conclusions, his proof is weak. He fails to mention the assertion in Deut 6:4 that God is singular. Furthermore, plural pronouns for God (which only occur twice, from memory, and both in Genesis) might also be understood as including God's divine counsel together with him: a counsel that is mentioned in texts outside of Genesis as well.

[Endnuenfyr]

You Oneness are so silly. It's very clear when reading the Bible that Jesus is God yet not the Father or the Holy Spirit. There are three persons in the Godhead. Oneness fail to account for the fact that the Old Testament uses a plural title for God Elohim. Together with the use of singular verbs this teaches the Trinity quite magnificently.

[lommylom]

@Endnuenfyr satan knows who the triune God is , thats why he tried to duplicate it with pagan gods before people understood who the one true God of the NT is(i know u commented a long time ago,sorry)

[DESKIN1967]

Not at all!

It is a stretch to say that any Jewish O.T. person believed in a Trinity.

Pagans held to a trinity in many cultures, because it was false.

They did not believe in a triune God at anytime.

Christian Jews believed in Jesus as God and knew the fulfillment of ISA. 9:6 was in Jesus in Rev. 21:6-7.

Unless trinitarians are ready to accept Jesus fully as Lord God and no other and he is their all encompassing triune God himself, then they are in error.

No Progressive revelation.

[OnenessTheology]

Nobody in the Bible believed in a Triune God in the sense of Three Eternally Distinct Persons.

The textbook definition of

"One Divine 'ousia' (essence) eternally existing in three 'hypostases' (persons)"

is a tradition of men not fully formulated until Chalcedon in 451.

[AbounaZarabbas]

Very interesting video.

Where he talks about "Let us..." from Genesis is obviously not the "majestic" or "royal" plural and I'm glad he raised that point.

In all of creation, God said "Let there be..." with all other things, but with man, God said "Let us...". If it was a "royal" plural, it would have been used in those other instances of creation.

Overall, a nice introduction to the issue.

In Christ, God bless.

[DESKIN1967]

God counseled with his own will, not own persons EPH.1:11

If you read vs 27 of Gen. 1:, you will see that God made man in his image and that was not a three person man, anymoe than he was a three person God.

Ezra has the royal plurality in it, so it was something God could do as man does, speak of himself as a we or us, creative acts from men abound with sayings like "what shall we do" when one is doing it by himself, just as God could speak of all the heavenly host the same way.