good video, my sword is made from AISI 1080 (its a ryumon) damn good sword and your corect about the folding being for only looks. its not needed now a days. good vid :)
if you look closely. i didnt forge this blade. crisnrachel did.
ive read on them, and i am a bladesmith. ive forge welded steel and know the qualities. modern steel is just as good as original tamahagane, and in a few occasions better.
the sanmai process was the part that made these swords so good. not the folding itself.
if you took w2 steel and used it as a core for some 1065, you would probably get a better result than a lot of old swords.
sure it will probably have the appearance of a REAL katana, though if i were to make my own katana id learn to make one out of Damascus steel. look it up if you dont know what it is
you have to fold it about 1000 times to get it bo be a good katana. that makes it more flexible and stronger. it also helps it cut through flesh and bones.
@Sasori4986 They fold the steel billets 15 times, that's about 30,000 alternating layers of hardness and flexibility. For its intended application, non-layered modern steel just doesn't make the cut.
@deaftone311 how does layering steel make it better? if i have 30,000 layers of mild steel welded together, do you think it would be stronger or more flexible than an unwelded mild steel bar of the same dimensions?
'non layered modern steel' was the desired result of the folding process
@wil12345678910liam Folding the blade is nothing more than getting rid of impurities in the steel. But since modern steel has minimal impurities to begin with, folding a sword no longer has a practical application other than achieving a Damascus effect/activity on the blade when polished
@ultimatedirtclod Haha the first part of my comment was meant to be rhetorical. Nice to see a comment by someone who knows that they're talking about though, cheers.
@attackoftherandom Believe that is water. Japanese used clean water on their anvils and sometimes hammer during the forging process to remove scale, oxides, and some impurities from the metal itself. However, the metal needed to be in a non-magnetic stage for the impurities to be leeched out.
@Phr33Pur3 This steel is AISI 1075/1080 from Admiral Steel. When using modern steel, the folding process is only performed for aesthetic purposes, and is quite irrelevant to the quality of the finished piece.
So, in short...none =D. The monosteel is plenty strong, and gets plenty hard enough to do the job!
@alex666493 true but that was several hundred years ago when Steel had lots of impurities when being made. But modern steel has very minimal impurities.
@crisnrachel i understand your meaning but it takes away from the spiritualism of the process a katana must contain the spirit of the maker this allows it to take on its personallity...
@TheMegaOlve just because he didnt fold the block of steel doesnt mean his spirit isnt in it. the only reason to fold is to rid of impurities in the steel. Kinda like when you cook something and you mix it to get an even flavour. Modern steel is already quite impurity-free. So in terms of quality and efficiency, not folding wont make it worse. You just wont have that Damascus effect on the surface of the blade
what?? i hope you are joking... folding process developped over hundrets of years from the best swordsmakers in the world, and using the best combination of hard and soft steel, overpowered by some shitty technique and admiral "modern"steel.... would like to see your end product compared to a real katana...
p.s. posting you a vid that should have passed from your attention...
NEVERTHELESS good sword making and sword for recreation purposes and for cutting, BUT NOT FOR BATTLE USE
are you serious? how can you claim something without even knowing the basics? the folding process was used back in the day to make a blade stronger not because it was folded. but because the steel they used had all kinds of impurities and carbon zones. if you were to just hammer out some tamahagane your blade would be inferior and easily broken.
i think you didn't even understand what i said.. anyway hope your name goes to what u intend to do for the sword.
couldn't post the first time but the vid if from discovery channel, just search katana sword making discovery channel and you should easilly find the video.
give it a look if you are interested in learning anything...
@CCTZARTATELIER i think u got ur process mixed up dude. Forge Folding is to rid of impurities in the steel since back in the old days, steel making process isnt as reliable and efficient as it is today. So they folded to blades to even out the carbon. Incidentally, it also creates a Damascus effect on the surface. Now however, modern manufactured steel already has minimal impurities. So if you use RAW iron and other compounds to make ur steel, u still need to fold it but if u use modern, u dont.
@Phr33Pur3 he used store bought steel which is pretty well distributed, you only need to fold tamahagane because its impure and has alternating levels of hardness.
@crisnrachel He's probably talking about making the sword broader at the tip, like a broad sword / chinese dao. The extra weight helps cut through more dense material, but also sacrifices some maneuverability.
....your taps are useless. pick up a metellurgy book youre supposed to strike it hard to compress the molecules in the steel youre just tapping the surface molecules and making it really crappy... Watch the Natgeo forging of katana's they strike it hard as hell with huge hammers and for good reason.
@Kyrazlan Actually not to be rude, but there are no molecules in steel. Pick up a metallurgy book lol. You either have fine grain, or coarse grain, and forging heavily or lightly has nothing to do with it. Also take a look again at your video. The only time they're striking heavily is when they forge weld the initial billet. Moving a 2" cross section of steel is a LOT different than moving a .25" cross section. Why do people insist on correcting others when they have no experience themselves?
@crisnrachel true at all :) hard forging is because they want to move metal FAST, to make some money FAST :P
edge packing by itself has indeed nothing to do with hard or soft forging, only forging at the right temperature ranges, *Not under the critical temp, which makes microscopic cracks in the molecular bonds between the carbides*
and of course the heat treating is very critical to a good sword ;) me out!
@vincentorio Sorry, but when using modern heat treating processes "edge packing" has absolutely no effect and is a complete, UTTER waste of time. "edge packing" is only effective when forging below critical temperature, when the steel undergoes allotropic phase transformation descending below critical the molecular structure changes completely and any "edge packing" or "crystalline alignment" goes straight to hell.
@davisironworks to continue: told me that aus-forging (forging below critical temperature) doesn't work because it fractures the chrystalline structure which makes little cracks in the blade. Then, in "The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrilousas, Jim writes that it will work especially good with air-hardening steels.
But what exactly will happen to the "Aus-forged packed & fractured" chrystalline structure when it does go above critical temperature? thanks allready :)
@vincentorio (A continuation) Also, if you DO "edge packing" and you do it BELOW critical, then you cannot go above critical again without completely destroying the "packed" crystalline structure you have created.
You cannot anneal. You cannot normalize. You cannot, for god's sake, go above critical to harden the damn blade.
"Edge packing" only works if you plan to case harden the steel. Otherwise it is A WASTE OF TIME!
@davisironworks haha what a 'temper'ament you have ;) thanks for this information, you seem to be very educated in metallurgy! So does that mean that a cutting object like a knife or a sword which was forged into shape has the same qualities of the same object made through stock-removal? (if we're talking about say a straight sword, not a very extraordinary shape).
My forging teacher, who is not really an academic in metallurgy, but has a lot of experience told me that this Aus-forging, 2b Cont.
@davisironworks Shit i have to type this all over again ><! buggerbuggerbugger,
anyway, Thanks for your comment! looks like you're really educated in metallurgy, which i'm not! ^^ Therefore i've got a question for u: Does this mean that say a straight long cutting object (no extraordidinary shapes) like a sword forged into the desired shape, has the same qualities as the same sword made through stock-removal?
My forging teacher, which is not really an academic in metallurgy told me (to be conti)
@col737zc That may well be...but the point I was trying to make to him was not to go about correcting people when he doesn't have the experience to do so accurately. Believe me, I am the FIRST person to take constructive cirticism with gratitude and respect. However one of the first lessons someone should learn regarding this internet thing is that unless you can back up your statements with experience and proof, you'll quickly be made a fool of. I was just trying to help him out is all =D.
@col737zc And...thank you for the compliment! We're in the process of moving at the moment, and then it may be awhile while I get my new work area setup...but I hope to put up a few more fun videos, with...hopefully, a bit more instructional flavor.
@crisnrachel Actually, Cris, not to contradict you but there ARE molecules in steel. Pearlite, Ferrite, and all of the troosites are molecular structures consisting of 9 iron atoms in one formation or another. Martensite is a molecular structure of iron and carbon consisting of 9 iron atoms and 1 carbon atom. Austenite is a face-centered cubic molecular structure of iron.
@davisironworks Hey Dan =D. See guys, this is a perfect example of an experienced, polite, and constructive comment. Also, Dan is someone that I absolutely WILL NOT argue with lol. If he is saying something I disagree (for lack of a better term) with I check my own sources and be sure my understanding is adequate. Usually it's my understanding that's faulty. That being said...
I'm going to go do some more reading on the subject =D.
@ryarod Folded steel is over rated, other than for looks (it IS beautiful to say the least) and tradition =D. It does take skill though, and I can see the draw. Most bladesmiths are addicted to the challenge more than anything else lol. For plain out and out performance it's tough to beat good, modern high carbon steels though.
Sorry for the late replies. I've been very busy with life recently and am only now back to the forge. Many replies I'm seeing are condemning me for forging at a black heat. To this I will reply that while I AM still hitting the work, I'm not actually forging anything below red. If you still feel I'm doing something wrong search balzerz, or slappybuckshot. Both accomplished bladesmiths in the Japanese style that get thousands of dollars for a blade. You can then hound them for being wrong too =D.
@laban1757 I'm sorry, I don't know much about forging handles...and I don't really do fantasy style blades. If you mean forging a guard or forging the tang to go in the hilt, I might be able to help you out. What kind of specific questions do you have?
@wvblade The steel is 1/4" x 1 1/2" 1075/1080 from Admiral Steel. I believe a 5' long piece is still around $20. Great steel for differential hardening in my limited experience. If you have any other questions I can maybe help you out with, just ask =D.
@crisnrachel I appreciate the reply... I was wondering how did your first sword turn out??? I seem to have allot of trouble with forging the bevels/tip etc...
@wvblade If you go to my channel you can see how it turned out post heat treat/cleanup. It has come a ways since then. I used to have trouble with the kissaki/tip and the bevels as well, until I learned better hammer control, and how to finish steel that is low red/black. Since then I rarely even show hammer marks, even with my crappy, lightly dressed 2lb el cheapo hammer. One of the first tools I'm replacing now that I'm back lol. I will also say...a superior anvil helped more than anything.
@crisnrachel Looks really good man... Impressive... Did you do anything to learn more hammer control for beveling and tip edification? Any information you can impart would be greatly appreciated...
@wvblade Not really...it's sort of hard to explain. I just think a bit before each strike now, whereas before I was more worried about getting as much done in a heat as possible. 4 or 5 effective strikes are more useful than 10 or 12 strikes that simply cause you more work. Planishing the work with lighter blows after it dips below effective working temp REALLY helped a ton as well.
I'm building a new forge over this next couple weeks. Should REALLY help with the scale battle =D.
@crisnrachel looks like you work from a loclalized heating source i.e. single propane burner? I appreciate the information... I guess I will have to waste allot of steel figuring it all out. You can all the equipment in the world but its only as good as you are...
@wvblade Actually, my forge was a charcoal setup. There is video of it also on my channel page. I'm just now finally in the process of building a modular gas forge (modular meaning adjustable from one burner to two for multiple tasks). You are right in that there is no substitue for practice...though research helps a LOT. I'll send you a PM with a couple links that may help you out.
The reason that he is wetting the hammer and anvil is to blow off the scale. The Japanese smiths have been doing it this way for at least 800 years, so he is in good company. By the way. Bright yellow is forge welding heat.
@jmforge Thanks! For the others, yes, it cools the work a slight bit faster than normal forging, but I have much less scale to deal with. When bladesmithing, scale can ruin your geometry completely. A .020" deep scale pit means .020" off the ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE BLADE to bring everything down to the same plane, as well as .020" off the OTHER SIDE of the blade, to keep things even. Simple enough to avoid it by using water, and adding a few more heat/hammer cycles.
@Antardrews Not...difficult precisely. It does take coordination though, and even more than that...determination. That's aside from the obvious necessities like an area to do it in, tools, etc. $150 can get you a pretty good start.
I dont mean to be a dick, but NEVER, pound on cold steel, my smithing master taught me that there are two things a smith can go to Hades for one is selling your work for to little, and the other is pounding cold steel, you were pounding on that way below forging temp, try to hit when the steel is about 1700 degrees (glowing a bright orange) lower than that you r just wasting time and energy
@1metalnation, wtf. Thats just not true, making the Steel too hot will make you loose lots of material, as long as its glowing Orange or bright yellow its okay, since you dont need it at welding temperature (wich is truly just a tink away from melting temp). By the way the most steel alloys melt already at ~1500°C.
I see youre right, 1700°F is around 900°C Wich is really OK for forging. Also me stupid answered around 0:20 where the Metal was still hot, youre true because from of this moment he should have it reheatened it, as he is pounding on it for a while as its cold.
yep, he is trying to straighten out the blade but he is just wasting effort, and with a gas forge like I believe he has, you really cant get the metal about 1700F
@1metalnation I actually am using a charcoal forge (you can see it on my channel). However...in my somewhat limited experience...you can do FAR more than 1700F with a decent single burner gas forge...even a home made one. A friend of mine forge welds with a single burner gas forge. That takes a good bit more than 1700F.
@crisnrachel it depends on what kind of fuel he is using in order to do this, propane its no problem, however natural gas you cant get the steel hot enough to forge weld, you could also run half propane half natural gas to get it done, but propane is a lot more expensive
@1metalnation Very true, I don't think I'd bother to run a gas forge on anything less than propane however, but maybe that's because I don't have natural gas at my shop lol.
@1metalnation Oh hey, by the way. I did some research and talked to a few friends, and there is no reason a natural gas forge will not forge weld, unless it is completely improperly setup. Properly designed, you only need 3-4oz of natural gas pressure to reach forge welding temperature in a properly insulated gas forge. Just wanted to be sure accurate information was being presented on this page.
@1metalnation In reply to some of these comments, you CAN straighten the blade, gently...on a black/low red heat. That however wasn't what I was doing. I also wasn't trying to move any metal. What I WAS doing was smoothing my work. Planishing if you will. Light taps on a low red (remember, you can't see what I see...through the camera) to almost black does wonders for smoothing out your flats, and defining your lines. Lucky that you have a Master to teach you!
he is trying to take off the scale as it forms, at most I would dip only the tongs in water, after I put the steel back into the fire, scrubbing the scale when it is just forming takes it off better but wastes valuable time, it will come off as you hammer it, but I have no idea why the hammer is in the water, it isnt in contact with the steel long enough to get hot, it is just serving to hinder his progress
@boatoflol It is for scale removal. The hammer and anvil create explosions of steam that blow the scale off hot steel. You can do this even at a black heat. Yes, I know...don't forge at a black heat. Apparently very few people around here realize that you can do far more with a hammer, anvil, and a hot piece of work, than simply forge/move metal. You can save yourself a ton of finish/file work as well.
@bighustlin I'd advise you to take up bladesmithing because you enjoy creating something with your hands lol, not to make a living. That being said, a properly designed and executed blade of this size can bring as little as $25 an inch, to as much as $100 an inch (this blade ended up approximately 25" if I recall), in smiths polish. As a beginner, I wouldn't expect to be able to make a blade that would sell in that range though, even on the lower end of the scale.
Hey two things! I was just saw that other link, and i was wondering if i could also have a link to your blog, because I'm also interested in trying my hand at katana forging. And did you fold the steel?
The making thread is a sticky over on the SBG sword forums, in the sword making discussion section. I didn't do any folding of the steel with this, just Admiral 1075/1080!
Thanks! It's really not very expensive. $75 tops will get you a pretty good start. The hardest part is finding a good anvil setup! Anything metal, stable, and heavy will work though. I'm using a cut down forklift tine lol.
@halosn1per117 All you need it a hammer, which you can get anywhere. A 2-3lb sledge, a claw hammer will work even. Something to hammer on, which could be a sledge hammer head half sunk into a bucket of concrete. And a source of heat, which could be as simple as a hole in the ground with a pipe going to the bottom with air blowing through it. A brake drum forge is also quite popular for beginning. Dump a load of charcoal on this, light it up and blow some air. Get some metal and you are set.
@halosn1per117 If you want to make a blade, look up your local Fastenal then go there and buy a 1/2" W1 Drill rod. W1 is fantastic for making a blade. If not, then find some scrap metal and make something. Remember, they used to do this thousands of years ago, so if they can do it, so can you.
I've discovered that nearly everything is a lot easier than people make it out to be.
@noxagol EXCELLENT OUTLOOK!! And very, very true. All of my hobbies seem to be things that people believe are difficult or complicated, from bladesmithing, to building fast cars, to a 300 gallon planted fish tank I used to keep. All it takes is the right mentality. Being willing to learn from those who have done it is the first key, meaning...DON'T be scared of being corrected, even harshly. If you want to learn, LEARN! =D
Thanks =D. It's a steel wire brush dipped in water to remove scale, which is formed in a reaction of the ultra hot steel to oxygen. Scale is not compressable, so if you don't remove it you will beat it into the hot steel. Bad bad idea!
To some extent yes. You just use different hammering techniques to lower and raise the metal in the high and low spots. It's not difficult when you get it down. There's a lot more involved in making a sword though. I'll send you a message with a link to a post where I've basically blogged the entire process I used on this piece.
no what? explain your comments will ya -_-. But to the smithy,what are u useing as a forge? i can only work with knifes atm due to my forges size,i made mine from a old wood stove and air powered with a hairdryer.
@jack688 My forge is a, hmm...modified would be a good word, gas barbecue grill lol. It is a charcoal forge. If you go to my channel there is a small video giving it the once over. Additionally, any forge that can heat a 3"-4" section of metal can be used to forge a sword, even a brake drum forge, or a converted Ichiban charcoal barbecue lol. You can only work so much steel at once!
Nice hammer control.
Froddofromtheshire 4 months ago
good video, my sword is made from AISI 1080 (its a ryumon) damn good sword and your corect about the folding being for only looks. its not needed now a days. good vid :)
samuraistorm89 5 months ago
Great video, how is your forge set up and how does it work?
ScandinaviansAreCool 6 months ago
NO NO you need the shinobae techniqe to do it right but good
heman31000 7 months ago
@heman31000 Why? As long as he has good teqnuiqe the sword will be good, i dont see why it has to be made using the shinobae teqniqe.
ScandinaviansAreCool 6 months ago
Comment removed
cantormath 7 months ago
Hit harder job will be faster
woNyhiphop123 8 months ago
@woNyhiphop123 meh, its his first...id take my time O_O
crazejason 6 months ago
The comments by all the "experts" in this video are comical.
ArtistBlade1972 9 months ago
You... are... COOL!
MrMaxstil 9 months ago
if you look closely. i didnt forge this blade. crisnrachel did.
ive read on them, and i am a bladesmith. ive forge welded steel and know the qualities. modern steel is just as good as original tamahagane, and in a few occasions better.
the sanmai process was the part that made these swords so good. not the folding itself.
if you took w2 steel and used it as a core for some 1065, you would probably get a better result than a lot of old swords.
problynevergonnause 10 months ago
I noticed you were wet forging thats quite a interesting method of bladesmithing but what are the pros and cons of it?
Jman999000 10 months ago
The katakana experts here are funny
derkrieger92 11 months ago
what does a wet hammer do?
209hii 11 months ago
Lol, katana are so ugly when they first begin. I can't wait until you finish it.
Cokecanninja 1 year ago
sure it will probably have the appearance of a REAL katana, though if i were to make my own katana id learn to make one out of Damascus steel. look it up if you dont know what it is
Excalibur5k 1 year ago
you have to fold it about 1000 times to get it bo be a good katana. that makes it more flexible and stronger. it also helps it cut through flesh and bones.
Sasori4986 1 year ago
@Sasori4986 They fold the steel billets 15 times, that's about 30,000 alternating layers of hardness and flexibility. For its intended application, non-layered modern steel just doesn't make the cut.
deaftone311 1 year ago
@deaftone311 how does layering steel make it better? if i have 30,000 layers of mild steel welded together, do you think it would be stronger or more flexible than an unwelded mild steel bar of the same dimensions?
'non layered modern steel' was the desired result of the folding process
wil12345678910liam 1 year ago
@wil12345678910liam Folding the blade is nothing more than getting rid of impurities in the steel. But since modern steel has minimal impurities to begin with, folding a sword no longer has a practical application other than achieving a Damascus effect/activity on the blade when polished
ultimatedirtclod 8 months ago
@ultimatedirtclod Haha the first part of my comment was meant to be rhetorical. Nice to see a comment by someone who knows that they're talking about though, cheers.
wil12345678910liam 6 months ago
You need to use iron sand.
endrancehaseo 1 year ago
About how long does it take to forge a Katana
dylansmith1333 1 year ago
what did you use as an anvil?
AnimatorsatWork 1 year ago
I love your background music.
JTHM257 1 year ago
thats a beefy katana
jackdog20 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Green Day sucks donkey dick.
StuPedassle711 1 year ago
what oil you use on the hammer?
attackoftherandom 1 year ago
@attackoftherandom Believe that is water. Japanese used clean water on their anvils and sometimes hammer during the forging process to remove scale, oxides, and some impurities from the metal itself. However, the metal needed to be in a non-magnetic stage for the impurities to be leeched out.
brainplay 1 year ago
green day in the background gets you a thumb up
CheaCucumberChea 1 year ago
what r u forging the sword on?
matjuchiha 1 year ago
GREEN DAY AT BGM!!
henrykazuo 1 year ago
How many times did you fold the steel, it looks pretty big, just wondering.
Phr33Pur3 1 year ago
@Phr33Pur3 This steel is AISI 1075/1080 from Admiral Steel. When using modern steel, the folding process is only performed for aesthetic purposes, and is quite irrelevant to the quality of the finished piece.
So, in short...none =D. The monosteel is plenty strong, and gets plenty hard enough to do the job!
Thanks!
Cris
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel but the bi-metal fabrication is what gives the sword the flex it need to perform efficiently
alex666493 1 year ago
@alex666493 true but that was several hundred years ago when Steel had lots of impurities when being made. But modern steel has very minimal impurities.
ultimatedirtclod 8 months ago
@crisnrachel i understand your meaning but it takes away from the spiritualism of the process a katana must contain the spirit of the maker this allows it to take on its personallity...
TheMegaOlve 1 year ago
@TheMegaOlve just because he didnt fold the block of steel doesnt mean his spirit isnt in it. the only reason to fold is to rid of impurities in the steel. Kinda like when you cook something and you mix it to get an even flavour. Modern steel is already quite impurity-free. So in terms of quality and efficiency, not folding wont make it worse. You just wont have that Damascus effect on the surface of the blade
ultimatedirtclod 8 months ago
@crisnrachel
How should you fold it? Does it bend in the fire or does somebody need to fold it manually?
ConorC96 11 months ago
@crisnrachel
what?? i hope you are joking... folding process developped over hundrets of years from the best swordsmakers in the world, and using the best combination of hard and soft steel, overpowered by some shitty technique and admiral "modern"steel.... would like to see your end product compared to a real katana...
p.s. posting you a vid that should have passed from your attention...
NEVERTHELESS good sword making and sword for recreation purposes and for cutting, BUT NOT FOR BATTLE USE
CCTZARTATELIER 10 months ago
@CCTZARTATELIER
are you serious? how can you claim something without even knowing the basics? the folding process was used back in the day to make a blade stronger not because it was folded. but because the steel they used had all kinds of impurities and carbon zones. if you were to just hammer out some tamahagane your blade would be inferior and easily broken.
problynevergonnause 10 months ago
@problynevergonnause
i think you didn't even understand what i said.. anyway hope your name goes to what u intend to do for the sword.
couldn't post the first time but the vid if from discovery channel, just search katana sword making discovery channel and you should easilly find the video.
give it a look if you are interested in learning anything...
CCTZARTATELIER 10 months ago
@CCTZARTATELIER i think u got ur process mixed up dude. Forge Folding is to rid of impurities in the steel since back in the old days, steel making process isnt as reliable and efficient as it is today. So they folded to blades to even out the carbon. Incidentally, it also creates a Damascus effect on the surface. Now however, modern manufactured steel already has minimal impurities. So if you use RAW iron and other compounds to make ur steel, u still need to fold it but if u use modern, u dont.
ultimatedirtclod 8 months ago
@problynevergonnause Very true. Impurities pushed out....
JARCHIE1973 9 months ago
this...
/watch?v=rwQqtf86qOc
CCTZARTATELIER 10 months ago
@Phr33Pur3 he used store bought steel which is pretty well distributed, you only need to fold tamahagane because its impure and has alternating levels of hardness.
varun009 11 months ago
U've got nice taste in music! Green Day's awesome!!!
SaxoRocks 1 year ago
if you make extra weight on the top side it will cut true ANYTHING.
make there some extra weight.
MrRik338 1 year ago
@MrRik338 I'm not quite sure what you mean...do you mean above the shinogi ji (the ridge line)?
Thanks for your comment =D.
Cris
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel He's probably talking about making the sword broader at the tip, like a broad sword / chinese dao. The extra weight helps cut through more dense material, but also sacrifices some maneuverability.
/Berg
berg89dk 1 year ago
....your taps are useless. pick up a metellurgy book youre supposed to strike it hard to compress the molecules in the steel youre just tapping the surface molecules and making it really crappy... Watch the Natgeo forging of katana's they strike it hard as hell with huge hammers and for good reason.
Kyrazlan 1 year ago
@Kyrazlan Actually not to be rude, but there are no molecules in steel. Pick up a metallurgy book lol. You either have fine grain, or coarse grain, and forging heavily or lightly has nothing to do with it. Also take a look again at your video. The only time they're striking heavily is when they forge weld the initial billet. Moving a 2" cross section of steel is a LOT different than moving a .25" cross section. Why do people insist on correcting others when they have no experience themselves?
crisnrachel 1 year ago 2
@crisnrachel true at all :) hard forging is because they want to move metal FAST, to make some money FAST :P
edge packing by itself has indeed nothing to do with hard or soft forging, only forging at the right temperature ranges, *Not under the critical temp, which makes microscopic cracks in the molecular bonds between the carbides*
and of course the heat treating is very critical to a good sword ;) me out!
vincentorio 1 year ago
@vincentorio Sorry, but when using modern heat treating processes "edge packing" has absolutely no effect and is a complete, UTTER waste of time. "edge packing" is only effective when forging below critical temperature, when the steel undergoes allotropic phase transformation descending below critical the molecular structure changes completely and any "edge packing" or "crystalline alignment" goes straight to hell.
davisironworks 1 year ago
@davisironworks to continue: told me that aus-forging (forging below critical temperature) doesn't work because it fractures the chrystalline structure which makes little cracks in the blade. Then, in "The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrilousas, Jim writes that it will work especially good with air-hardening steels.
But what exactly will happen to the "Aus-forged packed & fractured" chrystalline structure when it does go above critical temperature? thanks allready :)
vincentorio 1 year ago
@vincentorio (A continuation) Also, if you DO "edge packing" and you do it BELOW critical, then you cannot go above critical again without completely destroying the "packed" crystalline structure you have created.
You cannot anneal. You cannot normalize. You cannot, for god's sake, go above critical to harden the damn blade.
"Edge packing" only works if you plan to case harden the steel. Otherwise it is A WASTE OF TIME!
davisironworks 1 year ago
@davisironworks haha what a 'temper'ament you have ;) thanks for this information, you seem to be very educated in metallurgy! So does that mean that a cutting object like a knife or a sword which was forged into shape has the same qualities of the same object made through stock-removal? (if we're talking about say a straight sword, not a very extraordinary shape).
My forging teacher, who is not really an academic in metallurgy, but has a lot of experience told me that this Aus-forging, 2b Cont.
vincentorio 1 year ago
@davisironworks
vincentorio 1 year ago
@davisironworks Shit i have to type this all over again ><! buggerbuggerbugger,
anyway, Thanks for your comment! looks like you're really educated in metallurgy, which i'm not! ^^ Therefore i've got a question for u: Does this mean that say a straight long cutting object (no extraordidinary shapes) like a sword forged into the desired shape, has the same qualities as the same sword made through stock-removal?
My forging teacher, which is not really an academic in metallurgy told me (to be conti)
vincentorio 1 year ago
@crisnrachel
I think he intended to say atoms... nice sword noetheless
col737zc 1 year ago
@col737zc That may well be...but the point I was trying to make to him was not to go about correcting people when he doesn't have the experience to do so accurately. Believe me, I am the FIRST person to take constructive cirticism with gratitude and respect. However one of the first lessons someone should learn regarding this internet thing is that unless you can back up your statements with experience and proof, you'll quickly be made a fool of. I was just trying to help him out is all =D.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel good one!
vincentorio 1 year ago
@col737zc And...thank you for the compliment! We're in the process of moving at the moment, and then it may be awhile while I get my new work area setup...but I hope to put up a few more fun videos, with...hopefully, a bit more instructional flavor.
Cris
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel Actually, Cris, not to contradict you but there ARE molecules in steel. Pearlite, Ferrite, and all of the troosites are molecular structures consisting of 9 iron atoms in one formation or another. Martensite is a molecular structure of iron and carbon consisting of 9 iron atoms and 1 carbon atom. Austenite is a face-centered cubic molecular structure of iron.
davisironworks 1 year ago
@davisironworks Hey Dan =D. See guys, this is a perfect example of an experienced, polite, and constructive comment. Also, Dan is someone that I absolutely WILL NOT argue with lol. If he is saying something I disagree (for lack of a better term) with I check my own sources and be sure my understanding is adequate. Usually it's my understanding that's faulty. That being said...
I'm going to go do some more reading on the subject =D.
Cris
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@Kyrazlan What kind of moron are you? Pick up a hammer and learn what you are talking about.
davisironworks 1 year ago
@davisironworks Lol, I apologize that was most likely a sleep deprived post. Looks to be just shaping of the blade at this point...
Kyrazlan 8 months ago
Oh, man, lucky you! I want to create my own folded-steel blade.
Anyway, good job- and thanks for sharing this with us!
ryarod 1 year ago
@ryarod Folded steel is over rated, other than for looks (it IS beautiful to say the least) and tradition =D. It does take skill though, and I can see the draw. Most bladesmiths are addicted to the challenge more than anything else lol. For plain out and out performance it's tough to beat good, modern high carbon steels though.
Cris
crisnrachel 1 year ago
STOP SHOWING US THE BLADE EVERY 5 HITS WITH HE HAMMER!
cjoIIProductionz 1 year ago
@cjoIIProductionz Showing you the blade?? Umm...how about 'checking to make sure my edge is straight'??
=D
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel ya i realized that after i posted it. :P srry
cjoIIProductionz 1 year ago
@cjoIIProductionz lol no problem
crisnrachel 1 year ago
Sorry for the late replies. I've been very busy with life recently and am only now back to the forge. Many replies I'm seeing are condemning me for forging at a black heat. To this I will reply that while I AM still hitting the work, I'm not actually forging anything below red. If you still feel I'm doing something wrong search balzerz, or slappybuckshot. Both accomplished bladesmiths in the Japanese style that get thousands of dollars for a blade. You can then hound them for being wrong too =D.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
I'd also like to add...my previous commentary goes for water forging as well.
=D
crisnrachel 1 year ago
i am forging a buster sword can you give me some pointers on the forging solid handles ?
laban1757 1 year ago
@laban1757 I'm sorry, I don't know much about forging handles...and I don't really do fantasy style blades. If you mean forging a guard or forging the tang to go in the hilt, I might be able to help you out. What kind of specific questions do you have?
crisnrachel 1 year ago
what type of steel are you forging? I am planning to make my first as well... I could use all the adivice I can get...
Thanks
WVBLADE
wvblade 2 years ago
@wvblade The steel is 1/4" x 1 1/2" 1075/1080 from Admiral Steel. I believe a 5' long piece is still around $20. Great steel for differential hardening in my limited experience. If you have any other questions I can maybe help you out with, just ask =D.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel I appreciate the reply... I was wondering how did your first sword turn out??? I seem to have allot of trouble with forging the bevels/tip etc...
Thanks
James
wvblade 1 year ago
@wvblade If you go to my channel you can see how it turned out post heat treat/cleanup. It has come a ways since then. I used to have trouble with the kissaki/tip and the bevels as well, until I learned better hammer control, and how to finish steel that is low red/black. Since then I rarely even show hammer marks, even with my crappy, lightly dressed 2lb el cheapo hammer. One of the first tools I'm replacing now that I'm back lol. I will also say...a superior anvil helped more than anything.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel Looks really good man... Impressive... Did you do anything to learn more hammer control for beveling and tip edification? Any information you can impart would be greatly appreciated...
James
wvblade 1 year ago
@wvblade Not really...it's sort of hard to explain. I just think a bit before each strike now, whereas before I was more worried about getting as much done in a heat as possible. 4 or 5 effective strikes are more useful than 10 or 12 strikes that simply cause you more work. Planishing the work with lighter blows after it dips below effective working temp REALLY helped a ton as well.
I'm building a new forge over this next couple weeks. Should REALLY help with the scale battle =D.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel looks like you work from a loclalized heating source i.e. single propane burner? I appreciate the information... I guess I will have to waste allot of steel figuring it all out. You can all the equipment in the world but its only as good as you are...
James
wvblade 1 year ago
@wvblade Actually, my forge was a charcoal setup. There is video of it also on my channel page. I'm just now finally in the process of building a modular gas forge (modular meaning adjustable from one burner to two for multiple tasks). You are right in that there is no substitue for practice...though research helps a LOT. I'll send you a PM with a couple links that may help you out.
Cris
crisnrachel 1 year ago
The reason that he is wetting the hammer and anvil is to blow off the scale. The Japanese smiths have been doing it this way for at least 800 years, so he is in good company. By the way. Bright yellow is forge welding heat.
jmforge 2 years ago
@jmforge Thanks! For the others, yes, it cools the work a slight bit faster than normal forging, but I have much less scale to deal with. When bladesmithing, scale can ruin your geometry completely. A .020" deep scale pit means .020" off the ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE BLADE to bring everything down to the same plane, as well as .020" off the OTHER SIDE of the blade, to keep things even. Simple enough to avoid it by using water, and adding a few more heat/hammer cycles.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
4 fukk sake he is a amateur having fun just like me he will learn soon enough but before skill comes practice just as u all had to learn
vbtallie 2 years ago
is this very difficoult?
plz answer
Antardrews 2 years ago
sometimes, i guess it depends on how much skill you have, the knowledge you have, and how tough the steel is your using.
kakashi1578 2 years ago
@Antardrews Not...difficult precisely. It does take coordination though, and even more than that...determination. That's aside from the obvious necessities like an area to do it in, tools, etc. $150 can get you a pretty good start.
One hint...BUY TONGS lol.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
BRAVO HERMANO!!! YEAH! nice.
BerserkJheova 2 years ago
I dont mean to be a dick, but NEVER, pound on cold steel, my smithing master taught me that there are two things a smith can go to Hades for one is selling your work for to little, and the other is pounding cold steel, you were pounding on that way below forging temp, try to hit when the steel is about 1700 degrees (glowing a bright orange) lower than that you r just wasting time and energy
1metalnation 2 years ago
@1metalnation, wtf. Thats just not true, making the Steel too hot will make you loose lots of material, as long as its glowing Orange or bright yellow its okay, since you dont need it at welding temperature (wich is truly just a tink away from melting temp). By the way the most steel alloys melt already at ~1500°C.
boatoflol 2 years ago
Im basing my self off of the Fahrenheit scale not Centigrade, and this guy is pounding on the steel far past the point of glowing even a dull orange
1metalnation 2 years ago
I see youre right, 1700°F is around 900°C Wich is really OK for forging. Also me stupid answered around 0:20 where the Metal was still hot, youre true because from of this moment he should have it reheatened it, as he is pounding on it for a while as its cold.
boatoflol 2 years ago
yep, he is trying to straighten out the blade but he is just wasting effort, and with a gas forge like I believe he has, you really cant get the metal about 1700F
1metalnation 2 years ago
@1metalnation I actually am using a charcoal forge (you can see it on my channel). However...in my somewhat limited experience...you can do FAR more than 1700F with a decent single burner gas forge...even a home made one. A friend of mine forge welds with a single burner gas forge. That takes a good bit more than 1700F.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel it depends on what kind of fuel he is using in order to do this, propane its no problem, however natural gas you cant get the steel hot enough to forge weld, you could also run half propane half natural gas to get it done, but propane is a lot more expensive
1metalnation 1 year ago
@1metalnation Very true, I don't think I'd bother to run a gas forge on anything less than propane however, but maybe that's because I don't have natural gas at my shop lol.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@1metalnation Oh hey, by the way. I did some research and talked to a few friends, and there is no reason a natural gas forge will not forge weld, unless it is completely improperly setup. Properly designed, you only need 3-4oz of natural gas pressure to reach forge welding temperature in a properly insulated gas forge. Just wanted to be sure accurate information was being presented on this page.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
and its not a big deal, dont worry about it
1metalnation 2 years ago
I think he wants the scale to stick at his Hammer, but thats actually unnesecary when you use a slightly wet wire brush right.
boatoflol 2 years ago
yeah, as i said, its really just wasting time
1metalnation 2 years ago
@1metalnation In reply to some of these comments, you CAN straighten the blade, gently...on a black/low red heat. That however wasn't what I was doing. I also wasn't trying to move any metal. What I WAS doing was smoothing my work. Planishing if you will. Light taps on a low red (remember, you can't see what I see...through the camera) to almost black does wonders for smoothing out your flats, and defining your lines. Lucky that you have a Master to teach you!
crisnrachel 1 year ago
man that is exactly what mine looks like at the moment lol
Fersaymo 2 years ago
Hey crisnrachel, why did you put your hammer in the water all the time? to wipe off impurities wich came out of the steel? Why the wet brush?
boatoflol 2 years ago
i recon to clean both of em and cool it so it doesnt move waaaaay too much
mogleflopy 2 years ago
he is trying to take off the scale as it forms, at most I would dip only the tongs in water, after I put the steel back into the fire, scrubbing the scale when it is just forming takes it off better but wastes valuable time, it will come off as you hammer it, but I have no idea why the hammer is in the water, it isnt in contact with the steel long enough to get hot, it is just serving to hinder his progress
1metalnation 2 years ago
@boatoflol It is for scale removal. The hammer and anvil create explosions of steam that blow the scale off hot steel. You can do this even at a black heat. Yes, I know...don't forge at a black heat. Apparently very few people around here realize that you can do far more with a hammer, anvil, and a hot piece of work, than simply forge/move metal. You can save yourself a ton of finish/file work as well.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
@crisnrachel Thanks for that precious information, I sahll inform myself a little bit more about this.
boatoflol 1 year ago
I've been thinking of taking up bladesmithing, but I have to know... about how much do you usually get for a sword like this?
bighustlin 2 years ago
@bighustlin I'd advise you to take up bladesmithing because you enjoy creating something with your hands lol, not to make a living. That being said, a properly designed and executed blade of this size can bring as little as $25 an inch, to as much as $100 an inch (this blade ended up approximately 25" if I recall), in smiths polish. As a beginner, I wouldn't expect to be able to make a blade that would sell in that range though, even on the lower end of the scale.
crisnrachel 1 year ago
Hey two things! I was just saw that other link, and i was wondering if i could also have a link to your blog, because I'm also interested in trying my hand at katana forging. And did you fold the steel?
ltcornflakes 3 years ago
The making thread is a sticky over on the SBG sword forums, in the sword making discussion section. I didn't do any folding of the steel with this, just Admiral 1075/1080!
crisnrachel 2 years ago
thats pretty cool wish i could get enough money to buy and learn the stuff to make one of these
halosn1per117 3 years ago
Thanks! It's really not very expensive. $75 tops will get you a pretty good start. The hardest part is finding a good anvil setup! Anything metal, stable, and heavy will work though. I'm using a cut down forklift tine lol.
crisnrachel 2 years ago
i see all i can do is make shurikens by cutting electrical box coverings (i really dont know what they are XD)
halosn1per117 2 years ago
@halosn1per117 All you need it a hammer, which you can get anywhere. A 2-3lb sledge, a claw hammer will work even. Something to hammer on, which could be a sledge hammer head half sunk into a bucket of concrete. And a source of heat, which could be as simple as a hole in the ground with a pipe going to the bottom with air blowing through it. A brake drum forge is also quite popular for beginning. Dump a load of charcoal on this, light it up and blow some air. Get some metal and you are set.
noxagol 1 year ago
@halosn1per117 If you want to make a blade, look up your local Fastenal then go there and buy a 1/2" W1 Drill rod. W1 is fantastic for making a blade. If not, then find some scrap metal and make something. Remember, they used to do this thousands of years ago, so if they can do it, so can you.
I've discovered that nearly everything is a lot easier than people make it out to be.
noxagol 1 year ago
@noxagol EXCELLENT OUTLOOK!! And very, very true. All of my hobbies seem to be things that people believe are difficult or complicated, from bladesmithing, to building fast cars, to a 300 gallon planted fish tank I used to keep. All it takes is the right mentality. Being willing to learn from those who have done it is the first key, meaning...DON'T be scared of being corrected, even harshly. If you want to learn, LEARN! =D
crisnrachel 1 year ago
amazing job, just noticing the brush, is that to clean off any junk from the forge? and is it soft brisel brush or metel
shadow12952 3 years ago
Thanks =D. It's a steel wire brush dipped in water to remove scale, which is formed in a reaction of the ultra hot steel to oxygen. Scale is not compressable, so if you don't remove it you will beat it into the hot steel. Bad bad idea!
crisnrachel 2 years ago
thanks for the info =D
shadow12952 2 years ago
how do you keep the blade straight when you're making it? Wouldn't all that hammering cause a lot of weird indentations in the final product?
munnymike 3 years ago
To some extent yes. You just use different hammering techniques to lower and raise the metal in the high and low spots. It's not difficult when you get it down. There's a lot more involved in making a sword though. I'll send you a message with a link to a post where I've basically blogged the entire process I used on this piece.
Thanks for the interest!!
Cris
crisnrachel 3 years ago
I know where!! can i have the link though i cant find it in the forum
shadow12952 3 years ago
NO...
Xiomaro01 3 years ago
Hmm?
crisnrachel 3 years ago
no what? explain your comments will ya -_-. But to the smithy,what are u useing as a forge? i can only work with knifes atm due to my forges size,i made mine from a old wood stove and air powered with a hairdryer.
jack688 3 years ago
@jack688 My forge is a, hmm...modified would be a good word, gas barbecue grill lol. It is a charcoal forge. If you go to my channel there is a small video giving it the once over. Additionally, any forge that can heat a 3"-4" section of metal can be used to forge a sword, even a brake drum forge, or a converted Ichiban charcoal barbecue lol. You can only work so much steel at once!
crisnrachel 1 year ago