Dave Rat Testing Gain Before Feedback on EAW MicroWedge, L-Acoustics and D&B Wedges

[MrAnomilus]

Been using the old Radian coax in my own box for years now. Interestingly, I came up with the exact same enclosure volume and port tuning as the original MicroWedge, completely independently.

I have used them on many national acts and have been very very pleased. However, getting recones through Radian is a pain in the butt, as you have to ship it back to their factory,

I am very curious to try the EAW coax components in my boxes to see how they compare for replacements and future upgrades.

[www73171]

@MrAnomilus The EAW components get louder, are smoother sounding, lighter weight and more reliable than the Radian

[MrAnomilus]

@www73171

That is my understanding as well.

But the big question is whether the EAW coax component and/or passive crossover is now or will be made available for retro-fits in the near future.

Are you at liberty to say anything in that regard?

I'm very fond of my 15 year old boxes, they have served me well, are still in great shape, still making me money on rentals, and, frankly, I just couldn't afford to completely replace them any time soon with new MicroWedges.

[marcelumt]

ff tare



[thebiggaloot1]

The good engineer is probably more relevant then the good eq in this instance.

I don't believe maintaining optimum sound quality was considered by this test.

However, I will also say that these are all wonderful wedges.

vern7530 3 minutes ago

[www73171]

@thebiggaloot1 I think a good engineer is more relevant than good gear in every instance and a good engineer with good gear is always better than a reduction in either. As far as sound quality all the wedges tested are well in the window of pro acceptability sound quality wise, some just take more work than others to achieve the goal at hand. Max volume wise, the D&B's box per box will win. Pound per pound or size wise or time spent to achieve changes things.

[mirceaciuciuc]

Hey Dave,as you probably know the M2 uses its dedicated amplifier, D12 usually,how you used it,2 way active or in passive mode?Have you loaded in the D12 the M2 setting?Every manufacturer has its own settings for the speakers so they sound correct,d&b is one of them and probably the viewers of this video are not trained to understand on how d&b works.Again you should add to compare a M4 together with those wedges properly setup on a D12 or D6 amplifier with its own corespondent settings.

[www73171]

@mirceaciuciuc I chose the M2 for 2 reasons: 1) We see them spec'ed on riders of major artists & the M4's rarely are 2) Rat sound owns them and we do not own M4's. Actually the M2 is an active only wedge as is the HiQ, the MicroWedge is passive or active. To keep things fair, I used all three with "factory setups." To some the dedicated amp is an asset, to other it is an issue. Regardless, I just compared the off the shelf manufacturer setups to show and aspect that specs sheets do not cover.

[arthurkitchen]

Awesome, I wish I could afford to have Dave look at my system.

[michealjessing]

d & b is known to provide spl information about everything. and then vote this data only halfspace. I still remember well spl fair with information on each box

[michealjessing]

d&b still the winner in max spl only

[ToOlOGT22]

is it possible to hook up one or two wedges to a regular house stereo rather than using speakers?

[www73171]

@ToOlOGT22 Yep, there is a switch inside the port that puts the wedge in passive mode and allows them to run full range without a processor Though you want to use a pretty large power amp, bigger the better. The wedges will run on a amps over 1000 watts a channel.

[www73171]

@ProAudioDevelopment cool cool, thank you!

[efrainpineda]

@www73171 what is this program?

[www73171]

@efrainpineda That is a screen hooked up to a unit called "DBX RTA-1"

[panzaka]

sacate uno mejor

[leefanyee]

Have you ever compared with KS Audio T 4-M or CM 115? How do you think of those speakers?

[www73171]

@leefanyee I have not used either of those, though I will venture to say that floor porting and a coax design will be hard to beat with a conventionally ported seperate horn and driver setup.

[leefanyee]

@www73171 It is a very good reference, thank you.

[leefanyee]

@www73171 I have another question would like to consult with Mr. Rat.

There are 2 situations: 1. Linking a pair speaker to 4 ohms by powering only 1 channel from an amp, and 2. Separate a pair speaker to two 8 ohms/per and powering 2 channel from an amp?

Beside differences of mono and stereo, what else volume? sound? quality?

[www73171]

@leefanyee Well, the 8 ohm load with two sets of wire would see 1/2 the loss into speaker wire compared to 1 set of wires driving a 4 ohm. Use 2 sets of wire on the 4 ohm and it is back to the same. The third method would be to wire the speakers in series and bridge mono the amp. If the amp can handle 2 ohm loads, the bridged option will give you maximum power minimum loss into speaker wire. The dual 8 ohm option will give you less power per speaker and the 4 ohm 1/2 amp gives the lowest.

[leefanyee]

@www73171 Thanks for your lesson.

I totally understand that you teach me/us how to gain max. power from amp by linking speakers and setting up amp mode. But will this change of any difference on sound quality?

On the other hand, why there are different ohm speaker on market? And why people use 4 ohm the most in car audio while 8 ohm in pro sound? Is that the lower ohm the cheaper?

[leefanyee]

Great job!

[jh4124]

Wow that 15 is pretty nice out of the box

[musicianstl]

I thought JBL Monitors were one of the best monitors but none were used. Am I wrong to think so highly of the JBL's?

[www73171]

@musicianstl Currently in my opinion JBL does not make a stage monitor that is competitive on the top touring levels.

JBL is well known for studio monitors though

[TheTecm]

I cant believe this result. d&b audiotechnik loose this comparsion. Why they are so proud to be so expansive..

[www73171]

@TheTecm I don't consider them to lose. The D & B do get very loud and sound quite good loud. They just cost more and are bigger and heavier.

[doyleaudio]

That was such a massively cool demo. That's brought it home.

Great Job Mr. R.

[nyaudioengineer]

Thanks Dave!! this was very interesting indeed! D&B M2's and 115XT are on my rider, and though I have no problems a little eq cant fix, i may have to re-think my rider after this! Hail the RAT!

[sloanstewart]

THE RAT!!!!

[highspooky]

keep going on with your videos, i think it is not a physical perfect test, but who cares? i like the way you test it, because its always like in the real life, mixed up with some experiments and some measurement results. can you post some more about moniroring strategies and monitor mixing technics?

[MightySaturn5]

the MicroWedge 15 sounded pretty nice

[pablomacbomber]

se agradece muchísimo,  saludos

[plaot]

Thanks a lot for showing the difference, the Micro's arent yet avalaible in our stock. The D&B is still the leading monitor in the Netherlands because most rental company's use them. However EAW isn't that large in Holland, too bad since this short lesson. Thanks, try to impress my boss with this vid...

[bobsaget08]

How come you didn't test with the usual "1,2,3 and 10,12,6" to cover a broder range of the human voice besides "Hey, hey hey" ? My favorite montier wedge currently as an engineer right is the Ps15 by NEXO which i think work amazing for house of worships b.c of quality, coverage and frequency range. For your typical "Rock N Roll" applications the EAW MicroWedge is A-mazing!... Minimal ringing out and eq adjustments. Thank you for the demo Dave.

[thebiggaloot1]

I don't feel the goal of this "measurement" is relevant.

1. A flat starting place is more important than feedbacklessness. The RTA screen in this video clearly shows the D and B as almost perfectly flat, while there are some serious deficiencies in the hi mid range of the other three.

2. Who is going to be using this type of wedge without an expensive EQ and a good engineer. The flat one is going to sound the best when you only take out what needs to go.

[mogwix]

@thebiggaloot1 Dave touches on this in another video where he takes apart the three to talk about their components, their arrangement, and their design.

The D&B will be "flat" at a certain point (equidistant from the three drivers) but the response will change as you go off-axis. The coax designs remain more consistent over their dispersion. Those phase discrepancies cause feedback instability, which is annoying because it's not consistent over the response field.

[mirceaciuciuc]

@mogwix As i commented in the video where Dave takes apart the wedges , there is the M4 that is using a coax CD (constant directivity horn).

[www73171]

Hmmm, I personally feel that the ability of a wedge monitor to get loud and sound good with minimum feedback and minimum time spent EQ'ing would be one of the most relevant aspects for a stage monitor.

[readerwriter]

@www73171 I agree, the less eq you use the more gain before feedback you will have. It's all about phase, every filter you apply puts you further out of phase with your source and the more gain you apply up or down to each filter also puts you further out of phase. The less you interfere with a solid signal chain the better the performance will be. Actual gain and perceived loudness will always win the day when you have a stage full of really demanding "talent"

Thanks Dave, you da man!

[www73171]

@readerwriter You touch on an interesting point. I agree and have found that often engineers will EQ monitors for maximum perceived volume. The artist in turn, often listen for clarity. This disparity between what the engineer perceives as correct and what the artist desires often results in a loud wedge that does not sound good and is over EQ'ed.

[www73171]

@thebiggaloot1 Rat Sound owns HiQ's, MicroWedges & D&B wedges, we rent out all these systems & each has a set of assets that makes them useful. I did the video to demonstrate something I feel is very interesting & does not show up in the specs. II personally believe feedback stability while maintaining optimum sound quality is one of the most important traits a stage monitor can exhibit..

As far as #2, Chili Peppers and Queens of the Stone Age rehearse with Microwedges & no EQ's.

[Philomien]

Very interesting. What would be the result when using a different mixing desk? Let's say a Midas Venice or a Yamaha digital.

Nevertheless very good job. Thanks mate.

Phil

[www73171]

There is no real difference when with different mixing consoles. I have compared the Micro To 115XT using a Midas XL4, An ATI mic pre, Mackie Oynx and PM5d with the same results each time.

[Philomien]

Ok, I do believe you.

Thanks for the 'feedback', Dave :-)

[Afinlayv]

@Philomien I would imagine that the slight delay of the digital desk (1-2ms latency) might change the feedback characteristics of the mic-board-amp-air system. I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make. I've had luck in preventing feedback in the low mids (200Hz to 500Hz) in an instrument like banjo or acoustic guitar by delaying the channel by about 3-5 ms. I'm not sure if the same effect would be true for smaller delays and higher frequencies. worth investigating...

[sepollema]

Nice vid Dave, keep up the good work !