I don't feel like i have to care. It is enough that the protagonist. Understanding the heroes motivation is enough.Put your self in the heroes shoes. Do you understand sadness or rage.
Kratos is a dick. You play the game to see how far he goes. So for me no i don't have to care. I am not Kratos or Marcus. Subject matter and themes in the story usually are how a games story win me over.
This is like the third time i've seen this video, and every time, I think back to FF7. It really did draw me in to the story and the character's point of view.
Well your entitled to opinion, but I disagree with it. For me there is no difference how I feel about characters in a game compared to a film. I guess it depends on what kind of person you are and how immersive the game is but the most immersive games I played have just as compelling characters in those in some of my favourite films.
Can I say the same idea applies to gta 4? Just throughout the story he's this tough, ruthless but seemingly humane person but in the game both in freeplay and most of the missons he's an out and out asshole. One of the things that annoyed me was the misson in kidnapping the heiress, not a fan of punching a girl in the face in any medium yet every time niko got a photo he slapped her. Just thought it was unecessary and out of sync with the overall storyline.
In Fallout 3, your father is the first character with whom you interact. This is why he is such a prolific, important character to you. You know him from the beginning.
@MusicJustin15 Yeah, have to agree about your dad from Fallout 3. I mean, he's the first thing you see--AFTER ESCAPING FROM YOUR MOM'S VAGINA! I imagine for a baby that would be reassuring in that, "OH MY GOD, THIS IS HORRIBLE, I'M SCARED, THIS IS UNLIKE ANYTHING I'VE KNOWN--oh, da-da." But for me, it was, "...What the FUCK! Is this seriously HAPPENING? This is so weird--oh, Liam Neeson." I don't know if a game ever started more appropriately. Then spending all of a rather long tutorial with him
THERE IS SPOILERS IN THIS COMMENT I agree but it also matters if the characters are likable for example zeke in infamous I loved that character since the first game and i did feel terrible whille killing him in infamous 2 but i didn't when trish died
This is very good. My only problem with this is that, while many of your points are valid, under this logic you can't have a video game protagonist like Alan Walker from the manga D.Gray Man because he cares about everyone equally. Feel free to respond.
@SuperCareBears Well, I hate to say it (especially since I'll sound incredibly ignorant out of the shear fact I've never read any D. Gray Man), but most, if not all people who exist in the real world, don't and cannot care about everyone equally. Let's face it; you will never care about a random stranger as much as you care about someone in your immediate family. This is how life works, and when used properly, it's how games work too.
@SuperCareBears Well, I hate to say it (especially since I'll sound incredibly ignorant out of the shear fact I've never read any D. Gray Man), but most, if not all people who exist in the real world, don't and cannot care about everyone equally. Let's face it; you will never care about a random stranger as much as you care about someone in your immediate family. This is how life works, and when used properly, it's how games work too.
at first i didnt like this. i was like "but it can work sometimes.... you dont ALWAYS have to introduce characters at the same time to myself and protagonists" then u explained it near the end, and i was all like "aaahhhh soohhhh
Great points. One game that really suffered from the things you mentioned was Dragon Age 2. It opens with either your brother or sister being killed by an ogre and a lot of the drama afterwards revolves around your family greiving, but since they barely get a line before and we have no contenxt on their relationship, it doesn't really effect the player.
I think that the Mass Effect games do this really well, where either you meet a character at the same time Shepard does, or Shepard and the character have a history but that history isn't really referenced to the point where you can't understand/connect with the person.
This was a rather good rant. One thing I feel works rather well is to have flashbacks of the relationship the two were having. One example here is FF X. Throughout the game, the main character (who also is narrating) is thinking back on his memories of his father. Which sets up his motivation later on
But I must say one thing: if you can't get behind the motivation for saving your character's family, I'd say you're perhaps lacking a bit in the empathy section yourself.
There is definitely a huge impact in empathy when you've just met a character at the beginning of the game and have played it through to the end with them (assuming they're not horribly obnoxious like Ashley from Res Evil 4). I played through Fable 2 and at the end, chose to do the selfless choice of saving everyone else instead of the dog, and the game just felt empty afterwards. I suddenly hated playing after that point because my game-long companion was suddenly gone.
What you say is so true. First level of World at War, you're captured and you see your friend being killed, doesn't do anything emotionally because you never met them. In cod4, you genuinely care about who dies (on the British side) because you're introduced to them properly. Good video :)
I certainly agree with the player developing feelings for characters in game if you just met them for the first time. I most notably find this in the Fallout games with the companions, with the more recent installments 3 and NV. But NV does step it up as to where you get to play a quest to help develop those bonds by getting to know the character.
Sometimes the merely likability of the protagonist as a character is enough to motivate me to care about what happens to the characters they care about. I saw Cole's character not as myself but as the one guy that I could relate to in this world since we are doing all the same things. So when I see he really cares about his girlfriend not dying, I'm like "Don't worry Bro, we got this I'll help you rescue her. " It still takes strong characters and story telling to get to that point though.
The main way that games can promote attachment is through irriplaceibility (however that's spelled). Over in the "fun is not enough" vid I Used the example of A pokemon like game where there is both 'permadeath' and all 'pokemon' availiable for capture are at the same (more or less) level, such as lvl 1. So if your lvl 100 Pikachu or whatever dies, you have to start over essentially, and it would hurt emotionally. Such a thought would be multiplied if it was mew.
I think Homeworld is probably the best game at making me feel for the characters in the game. First level was a general + misc tutorial level, second level was basically a combat tutorial with some plot catalyst mixed in, then by the third level, the first real level, they killed off an entire planet and had already made me care for the entire population of the planet and the games protagonist. It's hard to say exactly how with only 500 characters, but it was an expertly done exposition.
I actually do feel emotionally connected to pretty much all the characters in games I play and I think that's mostly because I put myself there. You keep saying 'oh, that's not my sister' or 'that's not my girlfriend' and stuff like that. What I like to do is say well, what if this was my sister or my family? What would I do? That really helps, I think. And if a character's an annoying character, then it's an annoying character and can't be helped.
I agree with every point you make. I think one game that did an excellent job was Tales of Symphonia. It pulled off characterization very well I think. I cared about each and every character because each character was developed. The first 3 characters(Genis, Raine, and Collette)were all old friends and everyone else was new but they all could be empathized with and you cared when Collette suffered up till the middle of the game.More games should work on following that formula of development.
Hercules isn't a decent person - his true mythology mirrors kratos,actually. Killed his family while drunk, spends the rest of his time repentant, walking the land, attempting to do heroic deeds but always falling short.
I don't think empathy really matters when you're talking about core game objectives like in Mirror's Edge. Sure, Faith isn't my sister, but saving her is the McGuffin (sort of) the game is built around. It's just like any other game objective -- you do it because the game is entertaining and you want to win, not because you actually care about whether or not some fictional world is saved from aliens or Nazis or whatnot. Empathy is way more important to me in side quests or choice mechanics.
Yes, yes, thank you, I hate it when video games use influences from other mediums to to try and prop them up, they're not films, they're not books, they have to be treated differently.
I have always agreed with this. My prime example is the fable games. The one that is the clearest with this is the Dog in Fable 2. I'm suppose to care when the dog does things or when it dies in the story. Yet it has no personality or actual interaction with me. As well as any of the characters you can marry. It has no personality that is projected to the character to make them care so we don't. And if the game continues to try to make us care. We end up just hating the character.
Interesting stuff! As far as Faith's backstory, what they should have done was have a prologue mission set in Faith's childhood where Faith and her sister are playing in, like, the slums or just some streets doing parkour stunts. This would act as a tutorial and set up Faith's & the player's relationship with Faith's sister. The parents could also be in the scene to watch and say like "Try climbing that building", etc. This mission could end with the riot breaking out and Faith's parents dying.
What about something like what Disney Pixar's "Up" does? I mean, you'd have to jigger it to work in the video game medium, but the story allows you to empathize with the protagonist and his wife in a very short amount of time. I know you say video games aren't movies, and I agree that it's a trap that's too easy to fall into, but if someone could pull off something similar, I think it'd really enrich the player's experience.
This is exactly why I can't empathize with John Marston, even if he's trying to get his (bitchy) son and awesome wife back; I'm more interested on him boning me than actually wanting to help him get his family.
But now being serious, I felt the exact same thing about characters met at the same time as the MC, than characters the MC has known before me, like Marshall Leigh Johnson, awesome Irish, and even if he's a prick, Nigel West Dickens. Not to mention Bonnie.
I've always hated people like peach and zelda as well because they're so "helpless" which just makes me loath the fact that they can't do shit for themselves but constantly get their asses kidnapped.
Holy fuck. This was an awesome rant. I've been saying the same thing for years, and all I've ever received is "STFU, IT'S JUST A GAME". This really comes out in MMO's, where the sole purpose of them is to make a character, interact with the world, and act out your intentions (whether for good or evil). However, there is never a personal story nor are the worlds evolving. The theme always boils down to "You're the SOLE hero/grp of heroes, and you need to do X" over and over and over.
I disagree with the assessment of god of war 2. I think there is supposed to be some distance between you and Kratos. Its subtle, but if you notice the camera angles the game tends to take, you're almost in the perspective of a spectator, watching something resembling a Shakespearean action flick going down. This, among other things, would suggest to me a level of disconnect that makes god of war far more cinematic. I mean, I didn't feel rage or empathy playing Kratos. I felt bad for him.
Wow that was a great rant, very good points and yeah I agree, very difficult to care about characters if you're not meeting them at the same time as your protagonist. I would actually be quite happy to play a game where you get to know other characters in a non-dramatic "just hanging out" sense if it made the actual conflict more powerful. I'd happily play a mini-game of baseball with my character's son if said son was going to be kidnapped later on or something
problem is there is no ideal for every game genre/conception, but there are many pretty close. I think we possibly figure out the best use for every kind of controller or input with time, and we'll see games increaseing in quality and interactivity.
(Part 2) He really doesn't care about her for most of the story. To the point where his friend have to beg him to save her life. Then the story trusts apon the player that they love each other. And it's like uhhhh nooooo, WTF? Where in Lunar you get that little back story about Alex and Luna growing up together and that they are very close makes a huge world of difference. Something that simple made it much more relatable to why Alex would go out of his way for her.
(Part 1) This very much makes me think about how I felt about Final Fantasy VIII vs Lunar: The Silver Star Story. For me both of these game came out around the same time but in terms of the love story I related and understand the relationship much better in Lunar. FFVIII had been billed as this huge dramatic love story but I didn't care about Rinoa. What is interesting is as the player you are introduced to her when Squall is, which causes the problem.
Even though you're talking about video games, everything you said can be applied equally to pen & paper RPGs and LARPs. In fact, you've very eloquently summarized what's always bugged me about stories in all three media--not just characters, but plot and backstory too. In a movie, I can see that a protagonist thinks the plot is important, even if I don't. When I'm the protagonist--not always.
I must say that one exception is dead space, at least for me anyway...
I won't spoil things for those who haven't played, but by the tail end of the game I felt all sorts of emotions towards different characters.
specifically towards Jacob Temple and Elizabeth Cross, dead space did a great job of creating a sense of vulnerability and loneliness to the point that any human contact was a joy, and the resulting emotions were amplified.
(part 3)But in reality the fact that this closeness spawned before the games opening, combined with the fact that the little time you actually spend with Kairi before she goes missing makes her character seem really annoying, doesn't help the person playing the game feel anything but distain for her, and therefore makes the fact that one of the games main goals is trying to locate this annoying character, while ignoring Riku, who is slighly more likable, kind of upsetting...My rant is over
(Part 2) So you spend all this time looking for Kiari, and When you find Riku instead, you just ignore him and go back to looking for Kairi. Now for me this was extremely annoying cuz I didn't care half a Sh*t about Kairi, but I kind of liked Riku, so focusing my attention on the character I didn't like made the game almost difficult to play. And they try to justifiy you caring more about Kairi by making the main Character seem closer to her, then with Riku, Because Riku has Changed or something
(Part 1) I find that I also have trouble feeling empathy or compassion for characters close to the protaganist, but usually only when their female...When the character is a male, I still have trouble feeling compasion for them, but with female charaters it's way worse. (I am a girl by the way) My best example of this is Kingdom hearts, where The main task for Sora is trying to find his Friends Riku and Kiari, But in reality Sora is more intrested in locating kairi then he is Riku.
kotor is the first game i played where i felt connected to the protagonist. i felt like i was that character. and when you learn the things that happen, you can't help but be like "oh shit werd???thats me?!" lol...i mean thats my POV. I think Bioware has done a really good job in storytelling and such. they always make a really good quailty game.
The only game that has made me worry about someone in the game has been Heavy Rain. Nothing was more important than saving my son, then again, why play it again in a wrong way to see him die? I returned the game after I beat it (I got it used).
That's really interesting. I really noticed that phenomenon while playing Heavy Rain. I got attached to the characters throughout the story. But when it came to these character-plots such as Madison being a reporter, and especially realizing who the origami killer was, it was like I experienced an inner conflict. These plots conflicted with the characters personality as I had come to know it thorugh the gameplay. But I guess that's almost opposite to your point, but still... not :P
I was thinking that the perfect character to emphathize with is Nico Bellic's cousin from GTAIV. I think he's the perfect example of the character that is important for the protagonist you're playing, because there're from the same family, they've got back story and stuff, but he become important to you because you spend a lot of time with him and beside the fact that is pretty much a complete enthousiastic idiot, you like like him and he likes you. SPOILER you're really pissed when he dies...
I don't quite agree with your argument here. Let's view it in terms of movies/tv for a second. If I don't care about Jack Bauer's wife, I'm not going to care about his motivations and therefore not be engaged in his character so long as his motivation fails to rise above "my wife is dead!" Watching a movie where the character engages you, say Jenny in Forrest Gump. I was genuinely moved to care about Gump's motivations and his actions, so I found myself more immersed in the movie. (Cont'd)
@SteveLeCanard This is the same as with video games. A more engaging character like Alyx Vance or Jenny from The Darkness (@dadman1988) will make me care about what happens to her and engross me in the narraftive it's going to tell. That's immersion, and while it's very important, it's not the only thing that determines a character's quality. (Cont'd)
@SteveLeCanard Just because I don't find myself engrossed in a character doesn't mean they're not interesting. It just means that I'm less likely to finish the game, like I'd be less likely to finish a movie that didn't engage me. But just because I have a hard time relating to the characters in a movie like Brazil doesn't mean they're less interesting. There are plenty of narratives, like satire, that rely on the audience maintaining a distance from their characters. (Cont'd)
@SteveLeCanard The people who need to be listening very attentively to you are AAA developers who sink a lot of cash into making a game - it needs to be engrossing because they need people to form emotional bonds so they keep buying games. Indie developers benefit from this too, but since they can take more financial risks, they don't HAVE to. They can experiment with audience/character distance.
Also. Fuck YouTubes 400 char limit. I'm trying to write a thesis paper on the internet. Seriously.
It would also help in the inFamous example if there was anything about Trish or fatso (forget his stupid name) to like and/or care about in the first place. But there isn't. Like you said, if the game had let me it would have been lightning bolt sandwiches for both of them (right before breaking the disc in half because the rest of that game sucked too).
i love when hes talking about god of war 'but since the gameplay is all about hatred and violence and ripping shit up and fucking taking a things head of and shitting down its face' that really made me laugh xD
I think my main worry about this position is that you seem to be stating, in video games, players must have symmetrical emotional investments about what's happening narratively, and I don't think that's inherent to video game stories at all.
@vapidkunst inFamous is such a fantastic game to point to when you need an example of how not to do something, because it does absolutely everything wrong.
@SimpsonsDude2409 I didn't care much for john marston, i felt his character was never true to himself. Plus I really didn't much care for his family throughout the game
Agreed.I've never cared so much for a videogame character that I've seen so little of until Jenny from The Darkness.I think it's because the first time you see her the scene is set up so realistically of how a couple behave toward each other.
If emphasis is put on a supporting character without it being "just a part of the game," I believe you can definitely get to know and care about the people aside from the protag. I loved Roman Bellic as a character but when I had to rescue him, what, 4 times or something, I really didn't care about him. It was just awesome and I left it at that. But Jen in The Darkness? I fell in love during that couch scene with the TV and birthday cake. I was completely immersed in their relationship.
thankyou i agree about the movie idea! Why make games on gay ass movies when theres amazing movies like shutter island and movies like that to make a great game off of. ya i truthfully hat movie games but still id like to see some good one from a decent to good movie!
so, if we were to become "emotionally involved" with the character we play as in a video game, does it then become cinematic? Us watching/empathizing with a character we should be experiencing? Is it always necessary to "be" the character we control, or can we disconnect from the character to empathize with his/her feelings for other characters?
RPGs do this! Play FF or Tales games! So true, games where you know the characters = better. That's why I've played Tales of Symphonia so many times. I love the characters. And if characters are stupid i don't want to play it also.
@shineofjesus It's not contradicting at all. Look at Half-Life 2, some people consider it one of the best stories in games, and there's no emotional disconnection. He's saying go ahead and put great story, but make sure the character and the player are on the same level.
well wether it's movies or books or video games, there's a certain amount of effort you need to put in, in order for you to be immersed in the world (there's psychological reasearch on that yadayada...). Some people don't even make that effort and call whatever medium bad,but if you put in effort and still get nothing out of it,you deserve to be pissed.
I also think it's funny how something like mario can totally pull you in which would never do so in any other medium,but infamous has problems
yeah this rant was really neat. he is right in every way too!... idk about you guys but in MGS4 when Naomi died i kinda felt sad because of Otacon's attatchment to her... and same goes for half life , everyone he meets becomes somewhat of an attatchment.
Talking about player character emotional connections and involvement. Does anyone else besides me think that one of the best emotional connections ever made in a video game was in Shadow of the Colossus. Between the protagonist/player and the horse (Agro, I think that was his name). I felt like crying when he fell and i thought he died. I don't think I've ever felt that way about a video game character.
I really agree with you on that one. That's also the appeal of amnesiac heros. You and the protagonist both start the game knowing nothing about the past and although that cliché is pretty overused now, it just works.
Another example of meeting a character at the same time and still not giving a shit about them was Alone in the Dark and that stupid annoying bitch you meet in the elevator.
hm makes me wonder how he feels about the connection of heavy rain if he didnt feel anything there he has no hope i practicly cried when i found out who the murder was and he died :'(
This is all freaking amazing. This has changed my look on all games and makes me look beyond things even out side of things.and i just wanna say thank you. this is a little cheesy but this is so smart! lol
I found this really interesting. I feel it sort of explains my apathy towards the semi-forced plot twist(s) in Gears of War 2.
**GoW 2 Spoilers Below***
When you find Maria's charred corpse and Dom is crying "Maria!" I felt like a sociopath: I didn't even feel the slightest bit of sadness. Same goes for when Tai kills himself; I had no prior connection with him, so I wasn't moved when the rest of Delta Squad was terrified.
at the same time, i think a carefully developed history or mythology is important to a good plot. If you only look forward from the minute you start the game, you only have so many options as a game writer (hence we run into equivalent memory-loss scenarios). But if you go too far back, to establish credibility, you end up boring half of the people to death. It all needs to be balanced somehow. Is the real lesson hear that video is killing the video game star?
Haha.. Still watching this I am thinking of EVEN more examples. Shadows of Colossus (btw, ashley really needs to do a HAWP on shadows) You are going to do all this shit for your dead g/f..? I mean, I really love shadows, because I love to kill giants, and I think they didn't "push" the g/f thing in your face, so you could do whatever you wanted and feel comfortable. Occasionally I would walk over to the altar-type thing and be like.. who is this bitch?? Why am I doing all this shit for her??
AERIS FROM FINAL FANTASY!! THAT IS THE PINNACLE OF WELL PULLED OFF "CARES". Lol . You are dead on though. I especially agree how I like how MGS is done. Building history in a VG is fine, as far as story goes, but if they are building the game expecting you to CARE about the people, it is hard to make that effective. FFVII worked I think b.c. you spend like 70-100 hours of your life involved in the story (which by the way was very well scripted, b.c. I would probably not give shit otherwise
The other phenomena that spurs from this dilemma of the player actually being an ACTOR (since these games we consider are essentially movies) is the good ol "oh shit i lost my memory" character. Like the Witcher, or however many games done like that. That becomes too cliche after awhile. Another interesting game/story on this train of thought is Assassin's Creed I. B.c. It solves this dilemma not by removing your memory but by creating a whole matrix-type situation science fiction.
bugs me how games are becomming more like movies with annoying cut scenes..a game like FF I can do it with..cause the action is pretty slow..but on a game liek metal gear..I just want to play the game..not watch hours of cut scenes.. when I buy a game..I want a game not a movie. thats my opinion x3
I like these rants. You come pretty close to the ultimate ideals of gaming that every intelligent gamer holds and hopes for most. Look forward to seeing more... maybe?
Not anytime soon, I'm afraid. Anthony is now working for Gearbox and he doesn't think it a good idea to talk about other games when he's part of some now as well.
I never noticed that about games. I have a very sympathizing personality, so I care about a game's characters at least on a detached level. But games that successfully emulate that feeling of getting to know someone, recognizing and caring about them, are the ones that really tie me up emotionally.
FFX, for example, really pulled that off with the summon spirits. During gameplay you don't really think about them, but I was distraught when the final battles forced me to kill them one by one.
see, personally, i disagree about the FFX summoning killing spree. to me, summons are little more than a kind of ultimate attack. the summons have very little story surrounding them and you really don't interact with them aside from the 20 second cutscene that plays when you evoke them (which i disable because it was irritatingly repetitive).
(to continue the FF theme) a scene that resonates more with me personally would be zack's death in crisis core. a far more empathetic character
Totally agree. I cared more when Atlas's fake family got blown up in the bathysphere than I cared about Faith's dumb sister, and even then I barely gave a shit.
First of all, I'm so happy to have found someone that focuses on the actual story aspect of gaming and not by it "gayness." I'm hoping to get into the industry with my writing. So, thank you. Maybe this will help me "be the change" I want to see.
However, I agree and disagree. I definitely think that there needs to be a distinct technique when writing games. The problem is that I see two different paths working. In GoW and MGS, I never felt like I was Kratos or Snake because of because the
feeling was more cinematic and when either would sacrifce something or lose someone, I felt for them. It's weird because when I did kill that Spartan and finished off The Boss, I felt like I had killed them. I guess the problem as a writer is to figure out how you want to player to empathize: first hand or with the protagonist.
I agree with gossytony that working with a character is a good way to build empathy. Of course, that would be slightly more difficult in cases of linear games and
(Still follow up) would be difficult in cases of passive or dead personalities such as Kratos's wife and child or Cole's girlfriend.
I don't know. We as players can (but shouldn't) take a step back and figure out what kind of empathy we should have other characters. Jack Bauer's daughter or Alex Vance?
(follow up) sometimes, I feel very connected to a character already known by my protagonist, but most of the time it comes from the development of the relation within the game and not some previous relatioship... For example in Deus Ex, I felt reallt attached to JC's brother after some time. Another example : in the beginning of Baldur's gate 2, I really wanted to get Imoen back when she disapperas as she had been part of my team in the entire first game.
a great example of connexion between me / the protagonist and another character is the relationship between Ico and Yorda.
I also really cared about the Little sisters. In the mission where you have to protect one of the girls, I lost her and could not stand it (even if it did not change anything in the game) so I reloaded an old save to play it again (wish I could do the same in real life sometimes !)
ok I agree with everything here EXCEPT for the god of war family scene. The reason is, by this point in the game we have seen enough cut scene to care about Kratos's family as well as understand his need to redeem himself. I actually thought it was a really emotionally powerful scene (but that the gameplay was pretty aggravating, really).
u have a good point about24 but. most of the time movies have good screen writing and so on to make u care. so when u start it u thin "im not going to care" then as the story goes on and they develop the charecter who u thought "who cares"
i meet and find very few people now a days who just 'get it' and you good sir are one of those few. Not to mention your do a good simple job of expressing your information clearly with this setup VERY well done
Isn't Rhianna Pratchett a writer for nothing BUT video game stories? I didn't know she had ANY experience in other mediums. Or at least, aren't the games she writes stories for (Mirror's Edge, Overlord, Prince of Persia) what she's best known for?
I'm kind of wondering your take on flashbacks in video games considering you didn't quite address them in this video. I personally love them when done correctly (take Final Fantasy Tactics) for example. The game doesn't do everything right but just because the entire first character is a flashback it seems to have a much stronger effect than if it were purely linear, in my opinion.
Another important thing is that the character is actually useful to gameplay. For instance, in Resident Evil 4 when Mike dies, that had a lot more impact since he actually helps you out a great deal in the previous level, even though he was a one dimensional character you literally met five minutes ago.
On the opposite side of this you get characters that are hindrances to you, which results in the player simply hating them.
I'd like to mention Mother 3 here. You say that it's boring to go back to the character's childhood, but that's exactly what Mother 3 does in the prologue. Those first few minutes as Lucas first introduce you to the characters and what they're like, etc., but the big thing is that after Hinawa's death, the game more so focuses on Claus, and Lucas doesn't become a central character until later on. Flint's pursuit of Claus introduces us to true sorrow, and we empathize with both of them.
totaly yes, i get what your saying here it's like why would i care bout some useless Npc becuse of one or two cut seans, now if that npc was in game and usefull and the diolog was good then i might start to give a shite wether it lives or dies
I got much more emotional in, for example, FF7 where you meet Aeris the same time as the protagonist Cloud. Same in FF10 where you also meet yuna and continue the relationship as the protagonist in the game.
again a good idea but this is the price of interactivity imagine if in a film the main character was plucked out and you were put in his place the film would be terrible empathy is hard to transmit to real people but to actually create it in a person near impossible
this is what fable 2 was trying to do, and to some extent it did, i was genuinely upset when the dog died, and the hero is you from childhood all the way to adulthood, and i spent time with it, i also spent time wooing my wife, and trying for a baby, so that was also upsetting to a lesser extent. if it had worked it would of been awsome but it was slightly off
The dog as a template is certainly a viable solution to building empathy toward an NPC.
It wasn't used to awe-inspiring effect in Fable 2, due to lackluster storytelling in general. But it did what it needed to - it MADE people care about it.
Another solution is to make them useful ... like the dog.
In Valkyria Chronicles and ME you care when one soldier of your extensive squad dies in battle because they were USEFUL characters.
I guess a lot of NPCs are just too ineffectual to gameplay.
I think this is precisely the reason for character empathy, but even a useful character can be scorned when theyre not supposed to be if theyre written poorly, acted poorly or ,for example in ME i dont use some of the squad members, are useful but not integral to gameplay, meaning entirely necessary to enjoy the game. 6 squad members only 2 are used at a time and some people dont swap about because of the acheivments, luckily mass effect is increibely well written.
In ME it's tricky because only a useful character COULD die. Any characters I don't care about (have no use for) would never die 'cause they're back in the Normandy washing their tights.
I know you meant that everyone is inherently useful, but I guess playing as the commander you get to dictate what is useful and what isn't. So in that way you dictate who you empathize with (given the whole 'well-written/acted' part of course).
Yeah I suppose so. But i suppose the point of this video would be to direct the industry to a better future, so lets not dwell on a game that's been released, instead focus on a better system in the future.
Okay, first off. I'm impressed. I saw you before in Destructoid videos in GameTrailers and I thought you were an idiot. But after watching a couple of videos of yours and actually think you know what you're saying. And it's cool to have someone talking about this and that's knows about it. I'm subscribing. Nice work and keep it up.
Just curious, how did you feel about Mona in the Max Payne games?
NightShadow1989 7 hours ago
I don't feel like i have to care. It is enough that the protagonist. Understanding the heroes motivation is enough.Put your self in the heroes shoes. Do you understand sadness or rage.
Kratos is a dick. You play the game to see how far he goes. So for me no i don't have to care. I am not Kratos or Marcus. Subject matter and themes in the story usually are how a games story win me over.
WillBlanks 3 weeks ago
This is like the third time i've seen this video, and every time, I think back to FF7. It really did draw me in to the story and the character's point of view.
Tgwizman 1 month ago
I miss this guy.
masterkeyify 1 month ago
Well your entitled to opinion, but I disagree with it. For me there is no difference how I feel about characters in a game compared to a film. I guess it depends on what kind of person you are and how immersive the game is but the most immersive games I played have just as compelling characters in those in some of my favourite films.
redplague 2 months ago
I cared for Dom from GOW series and your squad from Brothers in arms :D but thats me
akaviri001 3 months ago
Enslaved Odyssey To The West.
newf360 3 months ago
Can I say the same idea applies to gta 4? Just throughout the story he's this tough, ruthless but seemingly humane person but in the game both in freeplay and most of the missons he's an out and out asshole. One of the things that annoyed me was the misson in kidnapping the heiress, not a fan of punching a girl in the face in any medium yet every time niko got a photo he slapped her. Just thought it was unecessary and out of sync with the overall storyline.
Gentleman329 4 months ago
In Fallout 3, your father is the first character with whom you interact. This is why he is such a prolific, important character to you. You know him from the beginning.
MusicJustin15 5 months ago
@MusicJustin15 Yeah, have to agree about your dad from Fallout 3. I mean, he's the first thing you see--AFTER ESCAPING FROM YOUR MOM'S VAGINA! I imagine for a baby that would be reassuring in that, "OH MY GOD, THIS IS HORRIBLE, I'M SCARED, THIS IS UNLIKE ANYTHING I'VE KNOWN--oh, da-da." But for me, it was, "...What the FUCK! Is this seriously HAPPENING? This is so weird--oh, Liam Neeson." I don't know if a game ever started more appropriately. Then spending all of a rather long tutorial with him
PoptartInvasion 4 months ago
Wait, your emphasize for Cratos...for him hating the gods? So...you hate God? Shame on you.
MusicJustin15 5 months ago
@MusicJustin15 oh no hating imaginary people
chemicallingo 5 months ago
@MusicJustin15 I think you meant "empathize" ... and are you serious?
NotSoHeavyKevy 5 months ago
If the dilemma Mirror's Edge were real, would you still save your sister, Ashly. Because I know for a fact that she would not save you.
MusicJustin15 5 months ago
THERE IS SPOILERS IN THIS COMMENT I agree but it also matters if the characters are likable for example zeke in infamous I loved that character since the first game and i did feel terrible whille killing him in infamous 2 but i didn't when trish died
jameshodell4 6 months ago
This is very good. My only problem with this is that, while many of your points are valid, under this logic you can't have a video game protagonist like Alan Walker from the manga D.Gray Man because he cares about everyone equally. Feel free to respond.
SuperCareBears 6 months ago
@SuperCareBears Well, I hate to say it (especially since I'll sound incredibly ignorant out of the shear fact I've never read any D. Gray Man), but most, if not all people who exist in the real world, don't and cannot care about everyone equally. Let's face it; you will never care about a random stranger as much as you care about someone in your immediate family. This is how life works, and when used properly, it's how games work too.
dalemark45 4 months ago
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@SuperCareBears Well, I hate to say it (especially since I'll sound incredibly ignorant out of the shear fact I've never read any D. Gray Man), but most, if not all people who exist in the real world, don't and cannot care about everyone equally. Let's face it; you will never care about a random stranger as much as you care about someone in your immediate family. This is how life works, and when used properly, it's how games work too.
dalemark45 4 months ago
at first i didnt like this. i was like "but it can work sometimes.... you dont ALWAYS have to introduce characters at the same time to myself and protagonists" then u explained it near the end, and i was all like "aaahhhh soohhhh
son12509 6 months ago
that was most good
son12509 6 months ago
@Jcoch01 my only character I've cared about, companion cube.
Mic1337Panther 6 months ago
damn true shit never really thought of it like that
xSwaggaxVersace 7 months ago
i feel like he is talking about one piece and luffy's relationship with pretty much everyone lol
arga400 7 months ago
Great points. One game that really suffered from the things you mentioned was Dragon Age 2. It opens with either your brother or sister being killed by an ogre and a lot of the drama afterwards revolves around your family greiving, but since they barely get a line before and we have no contenxt on their relationship, it doesn't really effect the player.
Gunganbuster 7 months ago
I think that the Mass Effect games do this really well, where either you meet a character at the same time Shepard does, or Shepard and the character have a history but that history isn't really referenced to the point where you can't understand/connect with the person.
superhippie87 7 months ago
This was a rather good rant. One thing I feel works rather well is to have flashbacks of the relationship the two were having. One example here is FF X. Throughout the game, the main character (who also is narrating) is thinking back on his memories of his father. Which sets up his motivation later on
But I must say one thing: if you can't get behind the motivation for saving your character's family, I'd say you're perhaps lacking a bit in the empathy section yourself.
tinyknott 7 months ago
There is definitely a huge impact in empathy when you've just met a character at the beginning of the game and have played it through to the end with them (assuming they're not horribly obnoxious like Ashley from Res Evil 4). I played through Fable 2 and at the end, chose to do the selfless choice of saving everyone else instead of the dog, and the game just felt empty afterwards. I suddenly hated playing after that point because my game-long companion was suddenly gone.
darksquall3402 7 months ago
What you say is so true. First level of World at War, you're captured and you see your friend being killed, doesn't do anything emotionally because you never met them. In cod4, you genuinely care about who dies (on the British side) because you're introduced to them properly. Good video :)
Xy1O1 8 months ago
I really like Joe form mafia 2, i mean idk about you guys but i shed a tear at the end
EverythingOldSchool 8 months ago
I certainly agree with the player developing feelings for characters in game if you just met them for the first time. I most notably find this in the Fallout games with the companions, with the more recent installments 3 and NV. But NV does step it up as to where you get to play a quest to help develop those bonds by getting to know the character.
RallenUzumaki1 8 months ago
Sometimes the merely likability of the protagonist as a character is enough to motivate me to care about what happens to the characters they care about. I saw Cole's character not as myself but as the one guy that I could relate to in this world since we are doing all the same things. So when I see he really cares about his girlfriend not dying, I'm like "Don't worry Bro, we got this I'll help you rescue her. " It still takes strong characters and story telling to get to that point though.
Daver14X 9 months ago
The main way that games can promote attachment is through irriplaceibility (however that's spelled). Over in the "fun is not enough" vid I Used the example of A pokemon like game where there is both 'permadeath' and all 'pokemon' availiable for capture are at the same (more or less) level, such as lvl 1. So if your lvl 100 Pikachu or whatever dies, you have to start over essentially, and it would hurt emotionally. Such a thought would be multiplied if it was mew.
ZexionSephiroth 9 months ago
my response to everything in this vid: i agree.
metalninja626 9 months ago
I think Homeworld is probably the best game at making me feel for the characters in the game. First level was a general + misc tutorial level, second level was basically a combat tutorial with some plot catalyst mixed in, then by the third level, the first real level, they killed off an entire planet and had already made me care for the entire population of the planet and the games protagonist. It's hard to say exactly how with only 500 characters, but it was an expertly done exposition.
snovatf2 9 months ago
I actually do feel emotionally connected to pretty much all the characters in games I play and I think that's mostly because I put myself there. You keep saying 'oh, that's not my sister' or 'that's not my girlfriend' and stuff like that. What I like to do is say well, what if this was my sister or my family? What would I do? That really helps, I think. And if a character's an annoying character, then it's an annoying character and can't be helped.
AragornHottie 9 months ago
wow......get out of my brain o_o
LionofDawn 9 months ago
Finally a rant that makes sense
georgeq91 9 months ago
I agree with every point you make. I think one game that did an excellent job was Tales of Symphonia. It pulled off characterization very well I think. I cared about each and every character because each character was developed. The first 3 characters(Genis, Raine, and Collette)were all old friends and everyone else was new but they all could be empathized with and you cared when Collette suffered up till the middle of the game.More games should work on following that formula of development.
Poopulan 9 months ago
Interesting. I gave a thumbs up. Just one thing tho.
Dont do a 6 minute rant and then go back on yourself at the end :L
WildBassfly 10 months ago
@WildBassfly That would only matter if you cared for the ideas presented as beeing his personal opinion. It doesn't matter when its just an idea.
DariusPoyer 9 months ago
Hercules isn't a decent person - his true mythology mirrors kratos,actually. Killed his family while drunk, spends the rest of his time repentant, walking the land, attempting to do heroic deeds but always falling short.
jmarquiso 10 months ago
I want his t-shirt :)
putanginapinoy12 10 months ago
I don't think empathy really matters when you're talking about core game objectives like in Mirror's Edge. Sure, Faith isn't my sister, but saving her is the McGuffin (sort of) the game is built around. It's just like any other game objective -- you do it because the game is entertaining and you want to win, not because you actually care about whether or not some fictional world is saved from aliens or Nazis or whatnot. Empathy is way more important to me in side quests or choice mechanics.
bgatten 10 months ago
Extra Credits has been a good friend to you in sending me and a whole heap of other people to watch your videos (which are awesome!).
I now suggest you go and help them in your 'out of context' way as a thank you......
MrTMcNaught 10 months ago
Yes, yes, thank you, I hate it when video games use influences from other mediums to to try and prop them up, they're not films, they're not books, they have to be treated differently.
Viscupelo 10 months ago
Comment removed
FlammaMan 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
That was really wordy, but it made a good point: you will probably be taken out of context about blowing guys off. Haha no, the real point was good.
Europahal 10 months ago
That was really wordy, but it made a good point: you will probably be taken out of context about blowing guys off. Haha no, the real point was good.
Europahal 10 months ago
I have always agreed with this. My prime example is the fable games. The one that is the clearest with this is the Dog in Fable 2. I'm suppose to care when the dog does things or when it dies in the story. Yet it has no personality or actual interaction with me. As well as any of the characters you can marry. It has no personality that is projected to the character to make them care so we don't. And if the game continues to try to make us care. We end up just hating the character.
Raniar 10 months ago
Interesting stuff! As far as Faith's backstory, what they should have done was have a prologue mission set in Faith's childhood where Faith and her sister are playing in, like, the slums or just some streets doing parkour stunts. This would act as a tutorial and set up Faith's & the player's relationship with Faith's sister. The parents could also be in the scene to watch and say like "Try climbing that building", etc. This mission could end with the riot breaking out and Faith's parents dying.
MikeIronweaver56 10 months ago
I'd never actually thought about that. But you're right I only care about side characters when my character meets him or her at the same time I do.
spriddlez 11 months ago
What about something like what Disney Pixar's "Up" does? I mean, you'd have to jigger it to work in the video game medium, but the story allows you to empathize with the protagonist and his wife in a very short amount of time. I know you say video games aren't movies, and I agree that it's a trap that's too easy to fall into, but if someone could pull off something similar, I think it'd really enrich the player's experience.
TennysonXII 11 months ago
I will never forget you said blowing a guy off was awesome, sorry. You shouldn't have drawn attention to it.
LostInConfusion1 11 months ago
Someone needs to rant about REBOOTS
ShadowLady247 11 months ago
This is exactly why I can't empathize with John Marston, even if he's trying to get his (bitchy) son and awesome wife back; I'm more interested on him boning me than actually wanting to help him get his family.
But now being serious, I felt the exact same thing about characters met at the same time as the MC, than characters the MC has known before me, like Marshall Leigh Johnson, awesome Irish, and even if he's a prick, Nigel West Dickens. Not to mention Bonnie.
FoxLady2 11 months ago
Haha...Thumbs UP for the God Of War theme song.
felixlechat99 11 months ago
can people please use a good camera and lighting with a green screen
emocelot 11 months ago
I've always hated people like peach and zelda as well because they're so "helpless" which just makes me loath the fact that they can't do shit for themselves but constantly get their asses kidnapped.
eskimoobob 11 months ago
Holy fuck. This was an awesome rant. I've been saying the same thing for years, and all I've ever received is "STFU, IT'S JUST A GAME". This really comes out in MMO's, where the sole purpose of them is to make a character, interact with the world, and act out your intentions (whether for good or evil). However, there is never a personal story nor are the worlds evolving. The theme always boils down to "You're the SOLE hero/grp of heroes, and you need to do X" over and over and over.
elspoko 11 months ago
I disagree with the assessment of god of war 2. I think there is supposed to be some distance between you and Kratos. Its subtle, but if you notice the camera angles the game tends to take, you're almost in the perspective of a spectator, watching something resembling a Shakespearean action flick going down. This, among other things, would suggest to me a level of disconnect that makes god of war far more cinematic. I mean, I didn't feel rage or empathy playing Kratos. I felt bad for him.
jimmypageisking 11 months ago
lol same
HuthvirMaster 1 year ago
extra credits you have foiund another drain on my time.
DAMN YOU!!
8thsinn 1 year ago
@8thsinn
seconded
kenny1006 1 year ago
Wow that was a great rant, very good points and yeah I agree, very difficult to care about characters if you're not meeting them at the same time as your protagonist. I would actually be quite happy to play a game where you get to know other characters in a non-dramatic "just hanging out" sense if it made the actual conflict more powerful. I'd happily play a mini-game of baseball with my character's son if said son was going to be kidnapped later on or something
TheReluctantKing 1 year ago
Wow, was sent here by Extra credits, and I picked the exact topic they just discussed.
Very true words sir, I rarly feel anything for most supporting cast in video games.
Primus1985 1 year ago 18
@Primus1985 Same XD
MegaPoster404 1 year ago
problem is there is no ideal for every game genre/conception, but there are many pretty close. I think we possibly figure out the best use for every kind of controller or input with time, and we'll see games increaseing in quality and interactivity.
635574 1 year ago
... you're so freakin' awesome. Extra Credits was awesome to suggest to look this up.
TheVaultingFig 1 year ago 43
(Part 2) He really doesn't care about her for most of the story. To the point where his friend have to beg him to save her life. Then the story trusts apon the player that they love each other. And it's like uhhhh nooooo, WTF? Where in Lunar you get that little back story about Alex and Luna growing up together and that they are very close makes a huge world of difference. Something that simple made it much more relatable to why Alex would go out of his way for her.
brandchan 1 year ago
(Part 1) This very much makes me think about how I felt about Final Fantasy VIII vs Lunar: The Silver Star Story. For me both of these game came out around the same time but in terms of the love story I related and understand the relationship much better in Lunar. FFVIII had been billed as this huge dramatic love story but I didn't care about Rinoa. What is interesting is as the player you are introduced to her when Squall is, which causes the problem.
brandchan 1 year ago
Also brought here by Extra Credits!
Even though you're talking about video games, everything you said can be applied equally to pen & paper RPGs and LARPs. In fact, you've very eloquently summarized what's always bugged me about stories in all three media--not just characters, but plot and backstory too. In a movie, I can see that a protagonist thinks the plot is important, even if I don't. When I'm the protagonist--not always.
Will definitely be checking more of your vids!
falseprophecy 1 year ago
extra credits (lol) for this guy!!!
olkp345 1 year ago
I must say that one exception is dead space, at least for me anyway...
I won't spoil things for those who haven't played, but by the tail end of the game I felt all sorts of emotions towards different characters.
specifically towards Jacob Temple and Elizabeth Cross, dead space did a great job of creating a sense of vulnerability and loneliness to the point that any human contact was a joy, and the resulting emotions were amplified.
Amarkcalledme 1 year ago
"Isn't it awesome to blow a guy off"
-Anthony Burch
zombeh42 1 year ago 2
(part 3)But in reality the fact that this closeness spawned before the games opening, combined with the fact that the little time you actually spend with Kairi before she goes missing makes her character seem really annoying, doesn't help the person playing the game feel anything but distain for her, and therefore makes the fact that one of the games main goals is trying to locate this annoying character, while ignoring Riku, who is slighly more likable, kind of upsetting...My rant is over
oppositeproduct 1 year ago
(Part 2) So you spend all this time looking for Kiari, and When you find Riku instead, you just ignore him and go back to looking for Kairi. Now for me this was extremely annoying cuz I didn't care half a Sh*t about Kairi, but I kind of liked Riku, so focusing my attention on the character I didn't like made the game almost difficult to play. And they try to justifiy you caring more about Kairi by making the main Character seem closer to her, then with Riku, Because Riku has Changed or something
oppositeproduct 1 year ago
(Part 1) I find that I also have trouble feeling empathy or compassion for characters close to the protaganist, but usually only when their female...When the character is a male, I still have trouble feeling compasion for them, but with female charaters it's way worse. (I am a girl by the way) My best example of this is Kingdom hearts, where The main task for Sora is trying to find his Friends Riku and Kiari, But in reality Sora is more intrested in locating kairi then he is Riku.
oppositeproduct 1 year ago
Dude I'm sorry, I love your videos. And you and your sister are fucking rad but.. I died laughing at the blow a guy part.
whereswaldozz 1 year ago
kotor is the first game i played where i felt connected to the protagonist. i felt like i was that character. and when you learn the things that happen, you can't help but be like "oh shit werd???thats me?!" lol...i mean thats my POV. I think Bioware has done a really good job in storytelling and such. they always make a really good quailty game.
afrobandit79 1 year ago
The only game that has made me worry about someone in the game has been Heavy Rain. Nothing was more important than saving my son, then again, why play it again in a wrong way to see him die? I returned the game after I beat it (I got it used).
DieYouAtheist 1 year ago
in fallout 3 you have to be friends with that bitch amata but when her father is attacking you and u killl him she's all mad at you 4 killing him :(
1baljongenman 1 year ago
I absolutely LOVE to see Anthony make a game of his own.
Tekknique253 1 year ago
That's really interesting. I really noticed that phenomenon while playing Heavy Rain. I got attached to the characters throughout the story. But when it came to these character-plots such as Madison being a reporter, and especially realizing who the origami killer was, it was like I experienced an inner conflict. These plots conflicted with the characters personality as I had come to know it thorugh the gameplay. But I guess that's almost opposite to your point, but still... not :P
Resurrectedfantasy 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hercules and Ikaros ... who dont really deserve to die because they are decent people!
hommhommhomm 1 year ago
Hercules and Ikaros ... who dont really deserve to die because they are decent people!
hommhommhomm 1 year ago
I was thinking that the perfect character to emphathize with is Nico Bellic's cousin from GTAIV. I think he's the perfect example of the character that is important for the protagonist you're playing, because there're from the same family, they've got back story and stuff, but he become important to you because you spend a lot of time with him and beside the fact that is pretty much a complete enthousiastic idiot, you like like him and he likes you. SPOILER you're really pissed when he dies...
SebLeCaribou 1 year ago
I don't quite agree with your argument here. Let's view it in terms of movies/tv for a second. If I don't care about Jack Bauer's wife, I'm not going to care about his motivations and therefore not be engaged in his character so long as his motivation fails to rise above "my wife is dead!" Watching a movie where the character engages you, say Jenny in Forrest Gump. I was genuinely moved to care about Gump's motivations and his actions, so I found myself more immersed in the movie. (Cont'd)
SteveLeCanard 1 year ago
@SteveLeCanard This is the same as with video games. A more engaging character like Alyx Vance or Jenny from The Darkness (@dadman1988) will make me care about what happens to her and engross me in the narraftive it's going to tell. That's immersion, and while it's very important, it's not the only thing that determines a character's quality. (Cont'd)
SteveLeCanard 1 year ago
@SteveLeCanard Just because I don't find myself engrossed in a character doesn't mean they're not interesting. It just means that I'm less likely to finish the game, like I'd be less likely to finish a movie that didn't engage me. But just because I have a hard time relating to the characters in a movie like Brazil doesn't mean they're less interesting. There are plenty of narratives, like satire, that rely on the audience maintaining a distance from their characters. (Cont'd)
SteveLeCanard 1 year ago
@SteveLeCanard The people who need to be listening very attentively to you are AAA developers who sink a lot of cash into making a game - it needs to be engrossing because they need people to form emotional bonds so they keep buying games. Indie developers benefit from this too, but since they can take more financial risks, they don't HAVE to. They can experiment with audience/character distance.
Also. Fuck YouTubes 400 char limit. I'm trying to write a thesis paper on the internet. Seriously.
SteveLeCanard 1 year ago
It would also help in the inFamous example if there was anything about Trish or fatso (forget his stupid name) to like and/or care about in the first place. But there isn't. Like you said, if the game had let me it would have been lightning bolt sandwiches for both of them (right before breaking the disc in half because the rest of that game sucked too).
mjc0961 1 year ago
i love when hes talking about god of war 'but since the gameplay is all about hatred and violence and ripping shit up and fucking taking a things head of and shitting down its face' that really made me laugh xD
doyly909 1 year ago
I think my main worry about this position is that you seem to be stating, in video games, players must have symmetrical emotional investments about what's happening narratively, and I don't think that's inherent to video game stories at all.
supafly666 1 year ago
truly you have a dizzing intellect.....
ebarocks 1 year ago
agreed
tiraixion 1 year ago
Man this dude talks about Infamous in like every video.
vapidkunst 1 year ago
@vapidkunst inFamous is such a fantastic game to point to when you need an example of how not to do something, because it does absolutely everything wrong.
mjc0961 1 year ago
play red dead redemption and you will feel for the protagonist how ever you spell it well if you dont i did lol, who agrrees with me?
SimpsonsDude2409 1 year ago
@SimpsonsDude2409 I didn't care much for john marston, i felt his character was never true to himself. Plus I really didn't much care for his family throughout the game
dTheComedianb 1 year ago
@dTheComedianb oh i hope ist not just me who cares lol
SimpsonsDude2409 1 year ago
I actually agree with this whole video. THE WHOLE VIDEO 4:58 i tried that but the game said I couldn't.
SonicRevolution 1 year ago
Jenny from The Darkness.
RTF55 1 year ago
@RTF55
Agreed.I've never cared so much for a videogame character that I've seen so little of until Jenny from The Darkness.I think it's because the first time you see her the scene is set up so realistically of how a couple behave toward each other.
dadman1988 1 year ago
If emphasis is put on a supporting character without it being "just a part of the game," I believe you can definitely get to know and care about the people aside from the protag. I loved Roman Bellic as a character but when I had to rescue him, what, 4 times or something, I really didn't care about him. It was just awesome and I left it at that. But Jen in The Darkness? I fell in love during that couch scene with the TV and birthday cake. I was completely immersed in their relationship.
OMGmyFACE 1 year ago
thankyou i agree about the movie idea! Why make games on gay ass movies when theres amazing movies like shutter island and movies like that to make a great game off of. ya i truthfully hat movie games but still id like to see some good one from a decent to good movie!
Disturbednum1fan 1 year ago
backround music is from god of war EPIC
shadowangelj 1 year ago
He is totaly right about infamous and the girlfriend bit
Strich56 1 year ago
Do you guys realize he talk too much. And why am I listening to this b.s.?
jinunicorn 1 year ago
so, if we were to become "emotionally involved" with the character we play as in a video game, does it then become cinematic? Us watching/empathizing with a character we should be experiencing? Is it always necessary to "be" the character we control, or can we disconnect from the character to empathize with his/her feelings for other characters?
gsparx25 1 year ago
RPGs do this! Play FF or Tales games! So true, games where you know the characters = better. That's why I've played Tales of Symphonia so many times. I love the characters. And if characters are stupid i don't want to play it also.
jollypirate100 1 year ago
Are you not the same person that said games need more story?
This is so contradicting it is funny.
When you buy a game. What do you expect? Did you expect really good gameplay or a engaging story?
idk about you but I go to barnes and nobles for a engaging story
shineofjesus 1 year ago
@shineofjesus It's not contradicting at all. Look at Half-Life 2, some people consider it one of the best stories in games, and there's no emotional disconnection. He's saying go ahead and put great story, but make sure the character and the player are on the same level.
TheZally13 1 year ago
Very interesting thoughts as usual. :)
skyninjabot 1 year ago
Heavy Rain made me care for the characters, it and maybe Uncharted are the only exceptions
idol1506 1 year ago
well wether it's movies or books or video games, there's a certain amount of effort you need to put in, in order for you to be immersed in the world (there's psychological reasearch on that yadayada...). Some people don't even make that effort and call whatever medium bad,but if you put in effort and still get nothing out of it,you deserve to be pissed.
I also think it's funny how something like mario can totally pull you in which would never do so in any other medium,but infamous has problems
strappinggermanlad 1 year ago
GOD OF WAR SPOILER ALERT
UltimatePotato 1 year ago
yeah this rant was really neat. he is right in every way too!... idk about you guys but in MGS4 when Naomi died i kinda felt sad because of Otacon's attatchment to her... and same goes for half life , everyone he meets becomes somewhat of an attatchment.
fatbugsie 1 year ago
Talking about player character emotional connections and involvement. Does anyone else besides me think that one of the best emotional connections ever made in a video game was in Shadow of the Colossus. Between the protagonist/player and the horse (Agro, I think that was his name). I felt like crying when he fell and i thought he died. I don't think I've ever felt that way about a video game character.
mithran0505 1 year ago
I really agree with you on that one. That's also the appeal of amnesiac heros. You and the protagonist both start the game knowing nothing about the past and although that cliché is pretty overused now, it just works.
Nixitur 1 year ago
Oh god your an idoit, video games need a bloody story, you would want to wonder... why am i running around towns
BeanieSkater 1 year ago
Another example of meeting a character at the same time and still not giving a shit about them was Alone in the Dark and that stupid annoying bitch you meet in the elevator.
FlammaMan 1 year ago
I cared about Aeris.
MrMatimusprime 1 year ago
seconded, while I didnt cry (trust me a quater of FF7 players did cry) I was sad, I just lost my 2nd best character...
falconpunch10 1 year ago 2
Hey pubic hair face
SpeedSkeeter 1 year ago
hm makes me wonder how he feels about the connection of heavy rain if he didnt feel anything there he has no hope i practicly cried when i found out who the murder was and he died :'(
yaku3 1 year ago
This is all freaking amazing. This has changed my look on all games and makes me look beyond things even out side of things.and i just wanna say thank you. this is a little cheesy but this is so smart! lol
ninjarobo110 1 year ago 2
i think you should rant on how moralaty is for childrens books not M rated games gamers dont care about right and wrong
airsoftcollector101 1 year ago
I found this really interesting. I feel it sort of explains my apathy towards the semi-forced plot twist(s) in Gears of War 2.
**GoW 2 Spoilers Below***
When you find Maria's charred corpse and Dom is crying "Maria!" I felt like a sociopath: I didn't even feel the slightest bit of sadness. Same goes for when Tai kills himself; I had no prior connection with him, so I wasn't moved when the rest of Delta Squad was terrified.
LeoPirate 2 years ago
drake in uncharted 2....never played the first but was attached to him and the characters as it went on
Bajansilva 2 years ago
4:59 I have shot Trish in the face with a ligtning bolt... i failed the mission
SgailSabre 2 years ago
FUCK YES ANTHONY
kjettpack 2 years ago
at the same time, i think a carefully developed history or mythology is important to a good plot. If you only look forward from the minute you start the game, you only have so many options as a game writer (hence we run into equivalent memory-loss scenarios). But if you go too far back, to establish credibility, you end up boring half of the people to death. It all needs to be balanced somehow. Is the real lesson hear that video is killing the video game star?
elephantman2222 2 years ago
Haha.. Still watching this I am thinking of EVEN more examples. Shadows of Colossus (btw, ashley really needs to do a HAWP on shadows) You are going to do all this shit for your dead g/f..? I mean, I really love shadows, because I love to kill giants, and I think they didn't "push" the g/f thing in your face, so you could do whatever you wanted and feel comfortable. Occasionally I would walk over to the altar-type thing and be like.. who is this bitch?? Why am I doing all this shit for her??
elephantman2222 2 years ago
AERIS FROM FINAL FANTASY!! THAT IS THE PINNACLE OF WELL PULLED OFF "CARES". Lol . You are dead on though. I especially agree how I like how MGS is done. Building history in a VG is fine, as far as story goes, but if they are building the game expecting you to CARE about the people, it is hard to make that effective. FFVII worked I think b.c. you spend like 70-100 hours of your life involved in the story (which by the way was very well scripted, b.c. I would probably not give shit otherwise
elephantman2222 2 years ago
The other phenomena that spurs from this dilemma of the player actually being an ACTOR (since these games we consider are essentially movies) is the good ol "oh shit i lost my memory" character. Like the Witcher, or however many games done like that. That becomes too cliche after awhile. Another interesting game/story on this train of thought is Assassin's Creed I. B.c. It solves this dilemma not by removing your memory but by creating a whole matrix-type situation science fiction.
elephantman2222 2 years ago
lol
peoplestink90 2 years ago
bugs me how games are becomming more like movies with annoying cut scenes..a game like FF I can do it with..cause the action is pretty slow..but on a game liek metal gear..I just want to play the game..not watch hours of cut scenes.. when I buy a game..I want a game not a movie. thats my opinion x3
Gwamus 2 years ago
Awesome rant.
SolRosenberg84 2 years ago 2
in the mirrors edge part it just look like hes rapped his legs around faith ..like yoda with luke in A new hope
killerhat121 2 years ago
You rock, Anthony!!!!
Tell Ashly I said hi!
UrbanValkyrie 2 years ago
LOL
"isnt it awesome to blow a guy off"
hur hur hur
TheBarrftw7 2 years ago
I like these rants. You come pretty close to the ultimate ideals of gaming that every intelligent gamer holds and hopes for most. Look forward to seeing more... maybe?
Emergence11 2 years ago 61
@Emergence11
Not anytime soon, I'm afraid. Anthony is now working for Gearbox and he doesn't think it a good idea to talk about other games when he's part of some now as well.
I agree though – I do miss these.
MrFoxInc 1 year ago
I never noticed that about games. I have a very sympathizing personality, so I care about a game's characters at least on a detached level. But games that successfully emulate that feeling of getting to know someone, recognizing and caring about them, are the ones that really tie me up emotionally.
FFX, for example, really pulled that off with the summon spirits. During gameplay you don't really think about them, but I was distraught when the final battles forced me to kill them one by one.
UkeRenji 2 years ago
see, personally, i disagree about the FFX summoning killing spree. to me, summons are little more than a kind of ultimate attack. the summons have very little story surrounding them and you really don't interact with them aside from the 20 second cutscene that plays when you evoke them (which i disable because it was irritatingly repetitive).
(to continue the FF theme) a scene that resonates more with me personally would be zack's death in crisis core. a far more empathetic character
hazardsoflove 2 years ago
I can tell you really spend a lot of time preparing these and/or playing video games in general and you really care about them. It shows. 5 stars.
WatchMeSC 2 years ago
Totally agree. I cared more when Atlas's fake family got blown up in the bathysphere than I cared about Faith's dumb sister, and even then I barely gave a shit.
Alyx Vance though, is fucking awesome.
XarenOgynso 2 years ago
I totally agree. Your videos never cease to make to me think and reconsider my opinions on things. I like that.
jackal27 2 years ago 2
good god, this guy is so adorable!
gochik26 2 years ago 31
@gochik26 agreed
aylapantswb 1 year ago
This is one of the most poignant points I've heard Rev. Anthony make.
infectedpo 2 years ago
First of all, I'm so happy to have found someone that focuses on the actual story aspect of gaming and not by it "gayness." I'm hoping to get into the industry with my writing. So, thank you. Maybe this will help me "be the change" I want to see.
However, I agree and disagree. I definitely think that there needs to be a distinct technique when writing games. The problem is that I see two different paths working. In GoW and MGS, I never felt like I was Kratos or Snake because of because the
spectreofathens 2 years ago
feeling was more cinematic and when either would sacrifce something or lose someone, I felt for them. It's weird because when I did kill that Spartan and finished off The Boss, I felt like I had killed them. I guess the problem as a writer is to figure out how you want to player to empathize: first hand or with the protagonist.
I agree with gossytony that working with a character is a good way to build empathy. Of course, that would be slightly more difficult in cases of linear games and
spectreofathens 2 years ago
(Still follow up) would be difficult in cases of passive or dead personalities such as Kratos's wife and child or Cole's girlfriend.
I don't know. We as players can (but shouldn't) take a step back and figure out what kind of empathy we should have other characters. Jack Bauer's daughter or Alex Vance?
spectreofathens 2 years ago
(follow up) sometimes, I feel very connected to a character already known by my protagonist, but most of the time it comes from the development of the relation within the game and not some previous relatioship... For example in Deus Ex, I felt reallt attached to JC's brother after some time. Another example : in the beginning of Baldur's gate 2, I really wanted to get Imoen back when she disapperas as she had been part of my team in the entire first game.
gossytony 2 years ago
very interesting...
a great example of connexion between me / the protagonist and another character is the relationship between Ico and Yorda.
I also really cared about the Little sisters. In the mission where you have to protect one of the girls, I lost her and could not stand it (even if it did not change anything in the game) so I reloaded an old save to play it again (wish I could do the same in real life sometimes !)
gossytony 2 years ago
ok I agree with everything here EXCEPT for the god of war family scene. The reason is, by this point in the game we have seen enough cut scene to care about Kratos's family as well as understand his need to redeem himself. I actually thought it was a really emotionally powerful scene (but that the gameplay was pretty aggravating, really).
WLDFLD 2 years ago 2
u have a good point about24 but. most of the time movies have good screen writing and so on to make u care. so when u start it u thin "im not going to care" then as the story goes on and they develop the charecter who u thought "who cares"
117yoyo123 2 years ago
i meet and find very few people now a days who just 'get it' and you good sir are one of those few. Not to mention your do a good simple job of expressing your information clearly with this setup VERY well done
Dorianwildegray 2 years ago
Isn't Rhianna Pratchett a writer for nothing BUT video game stories? I didn't know she had ANY experience in other mediums. Or at least, aren't the games she writes stories for (Mirror's Edge, Overlord, Prince of Persia) what she's best known for?
pedrovay2003 2 years ago
I'm kind of wondering your take on flashbacks in video games considering you didn't quite address them in this video. I personally love them when done correctly (take Final Fantasy Tactics) for example. The game doesn't do everything right but just because the entire first character is a flashback it seems to have a much stronger effect than if it were purely linear, in my opinion.
TwilightGaiden 2 years ago
Another important thing is that the character is actually useful to gameplay. For instance, in Resident Evil 4 when Mike dies, that had a lot more impact since he actually helps you out a great deal in the previous level, even though he was a one dimensional character you literally met five minutes ago.
On the opposite side of this you get characters that are hindrances to you, which results in the player simply hating them.
concordat 2 years ago
I'd like to mention Mother 3 here. You say that it's boring to go back to the character's childhood, but that's exactly what Mother 3 does in the prologue. Those first few minutes as Lucas first introduce you to the characters and what they're like, etc., but the big thing is that after Hinawa's death, the game more so focuses on Claus, and Lucas doesn't become a central character until later on. Flint's pursuit of Claus introduces us to true sorrow, and we empathize with both of them.
AdmlAckbar 2 years ago
totaly yes, i get what your saying here it's like why would i care bout some useless Npc becuse of one or two cut seans, now if that npc was in game and usefull and the diolog was good then i might start to give a shite wether it lives or dies
lordjohnbrenner 2 years ago
Wow, i just understood that he's totally right.
I got much more emotional in, for example, FF7 where you meet Aeris the same time as the protagonist Cloud. Same in FF10 where you also meet yuna and continue the relationship as the protagonist in the game.
dragonwasp 2 years ago
again a good idea but this is the price of interactivity imagine if in a film the main character was plucked out and you were put in his place the film would be terrible empathy is hard to transmit to real people but to actually create it in a person near impossible
hegartmj 2 years ago
this is what fable 2 was trying to do, and to some extent it did, i was genuinely upset when the dog died, and the hero is you from childhood all the way to adulthood, and i spent time with it, i also spent time wooing my wife, and trying for a baby, so that was also upsetting to a lesser extent. if it had worked it would of been awsome but it was slightly off
ApachiMaru 2 years ago
True.
The dog as a template is certainly a viable solution to building empathy toward an NPC.
It wasn't used to awe-inspiring effect in Fable 2, due to lackluster storytelling in general. But it did what it needed to - it MADE people care about it.
Another solution is to make them useful ... like the dog.
In Valkyria Chronicles and ME you care when one soldier of your extensive squad dies in battle because they were USEFUL characters.
I guess a lot of NPCs are just too ineffectual to gameplay.
TheNinjisticOne 2 years ago
I think this is precisely the reason for character empathy, but even a useful character can be scorned when theyre not supposed to be if theyre written poorly, acted poorly or ,for example in ME i dont use some of the squad members, are useful but not integral to gameplay, meaning entirely necessary to enjoy the game. 6 squad members only 2 are used at a time and some people dont swap about because of the acheivments, luckily mass effect is increibely well written.
ApachiMaru 2 years ago
In ME it's tricky because only a useful character COULD die. Any characters I don't care about (have no use for) would never die 'cause they're back in the Normandy washing their tights.
I know you meant that everyone is inherently useful, but I guess playing as the commander you get to dictate what is useful and what isn't. So in that way you dictate who you empathize with (given the whole 'well-written/acted' part of course).
TheNinjisticOne 2 years ago
Yeah I suppose so. But i suppose the point of this video would be to direct the industry to a better future, so lets not dwell on a game that's been released, instead focus on a better system in the future.
ApachiMaru 2 years ago
Okay, first off. I'm impressed. I saw you before in Destructoid videos in GameTrailers and I thought you were an idiot. But after watching a couple of videos of yours and actually think you know what you're saying. And it's cool to have someone talking about this and that's knows about it. I'm subscribing. Nice work and keep it up.
UBCSmerc 2 years ago
Another example is Alyx, she is helpful, so you care.
The companian cube, it helps you, so you are suppost to care, personaly however I didn't.
KnightTemplar108 2 years ago