An Important Response and Clarification (part 2/3)

[HiveRadical]

I think you're amongst the best of people who's been deceived. The little I know about you is what makes it hard for me to believe your claim of never having had a witness. You can believe that it's my own personal vested interest, that's your prerogative, but I don't think I was wrong about your previous demonstrations of conviction. Take that as you will.

[HiveRadical]

"we might have been happy"

Those are the key words.

[locochica4788]

and finally, you say that homosexuality cannot lead to eternal happiness because it is not i line with God's plan, you are implying that that really is God's plan to begin with. It's not. It's what you believe, which is fine for you. But I don't believe it's true. I am not trying to search for the truth that lines up with what I already believe, I believe that it is truth simply because I believe it's truth. I believe in my truth the same way that you believe in yours. The only difference

[locochica4788]

between you and I is that you believe your truth is the ultimate truth and everyone will be punished, or receive a lesser glory for not believing what you do, and I do not believe that. I believe that everyone who follows the dictates of their own conscience, and adheres to what they believe is right will all be rewarded equally.

[HiveRadical]

commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.

[HiveRadical]

these many years we have suffered in the wilderness, which time we might have enjoyed our possessions and the land of our inheritance; yea, and we might have been happy. 22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his

[HiveRadical]

20 And thou art like unto our father, led away by the foolish imaginations of his heart; yea, he hath led us out of the land of Jerusalem, and we have wandered in the wilderness for these many years; and our women have toiled, being big with child; and they have borne children in the wilderness and suffered all things, save it were death; and it would have been better that they had died before they came out of Jerusalem than to have suffered these afflictions.

 21 Behold,

[HiveRadical]

"And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy"

Sacrifice doesn't seem very happy initially, and the mocking in the building across the way can make some forget the happiness of the fruits of sacrifice, but it's duration that determines true happiness and joy.

[HiveRadical]

will be desirable.

[HiveRadical]

But that temporariness is the problem. If I buy a some seed that's been modified to inhibit the plant that it will produce from itself producing viable seed it doesn't much matter that the seed grows within me. By their fruits ye shall know them. One can go all the day long pointing out how right it feels but it doesn't change the truth of the limitations tied to it, it's sewing seeds of what will ultimately be bitterness. The seed of doubt will flourish if nurtured. That doesn't mean it's fruit

[HiveRadical]

---on the appearance and physical satisfaction of relationships condoned by God doesn't make them of the same measure in the eternal scope.

I think this is fundamental in the pride of the movement, it is going to God and saying that your perceptions are not what his are but your going to side with them anyway. Certainly you can derive much of what other things can, but God is telling you straight up that it doesn't have the full package. Like the writing on the wall indicates-it's all temporary

[HiveRadical]

--with Babylon you have it standing because it is, on many levels and in some cases to great degrees, built on true principles, the Devil's power and priesthood is emergent from him being in line, to some degree, with correct principles. But the claim of what is planted is what you are missing, homosexual relations have never netted eternal happiness. Just as we can infuse our minds with chemicals to imitate the biological machinations of human attachment so to can other processes take---

[HiveRadical]

--and with that rock the Prophet's role is emergent from that.

The analogy of the seed would be a good thing to cite on this subject since I think you've somewhat missed it. We can grow a wide range of seeds in our heart. But testing seeds you have to look at what it claims to be. One could plant a noxious weed, know full well that's what it was, and have it grow, the 'goodness' manifested in it's growing simply manifest that it is what it claimed to be. Babylon is a good example--

[locochica4788]

2nd: Yes, we can grow a wide range of seeds in our hearts. Clark tried to grow the seed of mormonism in his heart and it obviously wasn't doing him any good. Now he leads a different life and finds it to be way more rewarding and fulfilling. Thus it is the right thing for him. It is the same with me and the church. I feel a lot better finally accepting that the church isn't true and living the kind of life that I've always known deep down inside is right,

[locochica4788]

rather than try to live a lie by following the standards set out by the church and be miserable.

[HiveRadical]

I think you're missing some points on what is the ultimate arbiter of defining truth. I don't lay it primarily at the hands of the Prophet, I lay it on personal revelation. When Christ said "upon this rock I will build my Church" he wasn't primarily referencing Peter, he was referencing both what Peter symbolized AND what Peter had just shared, and that's his reason for his knowledge of Christ, namely that the Father had revealed it. It's personal revelation that's the rock--

[locochica4788]

1st of all..."personal revelation" comes from the true source. that source is not necessarily mormonism. for this man, obviously it isn't. He has gotten revelation that has led him to be where he is now. I have never received revelation that the mormon church is true, which is why I'm leaving. Obviously it isn't. In fact, every time I pray, I feel more and more like I need to leave, that comfort and safety lie elsewhere.

[HiveRadical]

"I have never received revelation that the mormon church is true"

I hope you'll forgive me for not believing that.

[locochica4788]

No. I don't forgive you.

You want to believe that because of the claims of the church that everyone who asks in faith will receive an answer. And because that was not the case for me, that means either 1. the church is not true 2. the church might be right for some, but not be, and 3. I must be lying or mistaken. You refuse to accept any other explanation than 3 because it would interfere with your personal beliefs.

[HiveRadical]

One could say the same for you as your options have much in common with what you put forward as being my options, your position presently has you as vested in your claims as I am in mine.

I happen to believe that there was a conviction motivating what I've seen in you. I'm sorry if my unwillingness to deny what I saw in your conviction offends you.

[locochica4788]

There was a conviction, you are right. That conviction was that I had been told that if I prayed, I would receive a witness of the truth. Since I knew I needed to be in the church, I wanted to gain a testimony of its truthfulness. So I prayed, and prayed, and prayed, and prayed. After three and a half years of praying and not receiving any witness, I decided to give up.

[HiveRadical]

What were the questions you were asked in the interview before your baptism?

[locochica4788]

I don't remember, I was nine. I don't even think I paid attention.

[rd1999]

excellent job at expressing your position in a way that an average member can understand. I think that the fact that the Mormons do not include Gay people is a sign that they do not have the fullness of truth.