Who Killed The Electric Street Car?

[SaturnEternity]

That 20 years is soon approaching from the date this film was made.

[watup2154]

it makes me sad.

[sirrliv]

Well, having heard the other side of the story, I don't hold to this vid. The sad fact is that Pacific Electric simply didn't keep up with the growth of the suburbs, and their own service left them redundant & vulnerable to the very buy-outs that are described here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending GM. Gods, no. I'm just saying that this is only one part of a bigger story.

[Corvetteably]

The article isn't overly convincing. It does say NCL wanted to change the lines to buses. It doesn't say why and several of the key references were from articles promoting the idea that mass transit suffered due to deliberate actions rather than due to consumer choice. Those articles must be taken with a bit of salt. What the wiki doesn't cover is where the rails or rolling stock old, in need of repair or near end of life. We don't know why NCL made their choice so we can't say it was wrong

[emforty2]

the transportation of the future was invented in the PAST !

[bamkablam]

Fuck General Motors. Fuck Firestone Tires. Fuck Standard Oil. Fuck them all. The dismantling of this streetcar system was one of the worst corporate crimes committed in US history! The traffic problems of today's Los Angeles are the bain of existence of most of the city's population.

[perplexfraction]

The Oil companies are trying their best to stop free energy ideas from spreading to common ppl.

We need to put an end to this corruption ,start generating your own electricity.

Look for the LT MAGNET MOTOR in youtube video search. Join the Revolution!!

[jojopuppyfish]

Oh, btw what killed the electric cars was that People liked driving more than using public transportation.

Cars work great until you're stuck in traffic.

[GlobalAwareness2525]

@jojopuppyfish

Ok, so your saying people quit riding the street cars because they all could afford & preferred to drive a car. I would believe that if whomever originally owned the street cars simply went out of business for lack of sufficient profits but if it was you, If you owned GM then why on earth would you spend a large portion of your money to buy the "failing" street cars then go to the expense of dismantling it? That makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.

[GlobalAwareness2525]

@jojopuppyfish

In Big Business it is within the everyday normal function to squash your competition, to dominate the industry. Some stay strictly within the legal system using many lawyers, even actually creating laws with loopholes specifically for those individuals. Some step outside the law to intimidate & sometimes kill people. The Mafia themselves actually own industry, not as openly & not usually as violent as the 1920s but they are still there.

[GlobalAwareness2525]

@jojopuppyfish

1

I breed a high $ dog.There are groups who harass other dog breeders getting into the business,I can easily call them the elite because in my counter attack against them I have traced them down to their homes & they do come from money. They travel the world showing their dogs, they profit $3,000-$4,000 per pup with a litter of 12, that's $36,000-$48,000 per litter. They don't want me cutting into their business & under cutting them so they tried to drive me out but I fight back.

[GlobalAwareness2525]

@jojopuppyfish

2

They unknowingly left a paper trail I was able to find through the Freedom Of Information act. They use the AKC & BernerGarde foundation with insiders who have access to EveryBodies personal information, they use city officials to carry out their dirty work but I would not tolerate that.Firstly I launched a publicity campaign to destroy the breeders reputations then 1X1 I went to every city authority involved threatening to publicly press charges.All attacks& harassment stopped

[GlobalAwareness2525]

@jojopuppyfish

3

It is very common place for one business who wants to corner the market to buy out their competitor destroying all buildings then erect their own building. I knew a man who opened a Pizza joint. His competitor approached him & said "shut down or I will shut you down". Using city officials to harass he was shut down within 3 months. This stuff happened in the past & continues to happen to this day. It is life in the brutal world of business.

[gygyman64]

@jojopuppyfish actually greed killed the streetcar, people like to drive, but when you take the alternative to the car out, what are you gonna do? you can't walk 10km to work every day. People liked to drive but at that time it was all in the pleasure to drive, if they had to go to work or go long distance they used rail, besides cars did not offer confort like today. I don't know what to say, the people who did this are dead because they got old so what was the point getting all the money?!

[MrPotatoesLatkie]

@jojopuppyfish I'm sure that helped, but they give evidence for their view, while you only gave a conjecture, a plausible one, though.

[jojopuppyfish]

@MrPotatoesLatkie In SF, there was a protest when they wanted to remove the cable cars.

Where was that type of protest in LA?

People love their cars in the USA. Gray Davis was recalled by the CA voters because he tried to raise the DMV tax on cars and the voters revolted

[SEElovEverywhere]

So where can we buy the DVD? i have looked and cannot find out.

[Corvetteably]

@MGman800 Did you read Slater's article? His article showed why Taken for a Ride was wrong. A number of people who favor streetcars and even someone who's a cycling as an alternative to cars have come out and shown that Taken for a Ride (which is basically Snell's story) just doesn't add up.

[kemetnusayf]

You can not say that the entire documentary taken for a ride was based entirely on Snell's work. You are right in that people should read first before formulating an opinion. However, just because someone doesn't agree with you does not make them wrong. The streetcars suffered not at just the hand of one corporation, but on quite a multitude of areas. Open your eyes to other possibilities before attacking others.

[Corvetteably]

@kemetnusayf I can say that the idea that it was a conspiracy that took down the street car lines is a joke. The real point of Slater's and other's work is that the companies in question didn't kill the streetcar. They certainly didn't help but it was a general loss of ridership and high costs that did the system in. Why people stopped riding and why cost went up is due to many causes and some could be due to deliberate action on the part of these companies but the lines would die anyway.

[kemetnusayf]

@Corvetteably You will never know that for sure. We did not sit in the board rooms of the streetcar companies in question. Now, all we have is second hand knowledge and heresay and no scholar can determine if they would have died for sure. I can say this for a fact. Bus companies are heavily subsidized by the government at least in major cities, and in the case of Seattle, do not pay fuel taxes.

[MGman800]

This video is only the icing on the cake. The real truth of the situation won't be told by Ciff Slater or anyone else. I suggest Google-ing the video Taken for a Ride. It provides in-depth information on the issue and proves how wrong the propaganda that has been said by naysayers for long.

[gtgene]

The problem with streetcars is that they must follow the rails and wires. An accident, power failure,or anything blocking the tracks shuts a line down,while a bus can simply detour around. It's why cities started replacing them as far back as the 1920s with buses. GM or no GM,they went the way of the horse and buggy.

[bighondo77]

@gtgene Have you ever seen a subway system in a city like Manhattan? Works great.

[gtgene]

@bighondo77 I have ridden the subways in NY. Of course they do. The vid is about streetcars,which even NYC gave up for buses. The basic difference is a subway has a private right of way,whereas streetcars are out in traffic where a lot more can and does go wrong.

[eyesk8er]

Apparently you haven't heard that streetcars did not go the way of the horse & buggy and that, worldwide as well as in the U.S., there has been a very dramatic growth in streetcar lines. Portland & San Francisco just added new lines their growing streetcar systems. In addition St Louis, Mo. is planning a new streetcar line.

[Corvettably]

People here should read Chris Slater's article on this subject. Check it out by going to "The Great American Streetcar Scandal" on Wikipedia. His article and several others linked to from the Wiki article basically pour water all over this myth. GM didn't kill the streetcars. A self serving politician created the myth because it served his ends. The facts were dismissed at the time but people love a good conspiracy theory.

[kemetnusayf]

@Corvettably You should read the info on the Key System on wikipedia. I think it is called traffic engineers vs transit patrons, and paving the way for buses in the key system link. That is a detailed account of the efforts of not only citizens but the city council of the Bay Area to save the streetcars in Oakland. According to these articles, the rail system of Oakland actually did turn a profit. Even then, the PUC still shut down the rail cars a few years later. It is pretty informative

[margarethaller]

I knew from my radical, liberal mother of this travesty. Thanks, Love to you and Ann

[margarethaller]

My very liberal mother ranted about GM all the time, and refused to buy a GM car.

This, my dad (Closet republican, and he's an artist), refused to get into an

argument.. My mom had told me while quite young, what had happened to the red car, cause she and her friends would go from Hollywood to the beach.

She was a flaming liberal, and my dad had the sense enough not to react to her

observations. Little bit of history there, since my mom was born in 1926, and

reminded me.

11

[408knw]

Competition is key to the "free market." No competitors, no competition. If government intervenes with longterm subsidy of one, it ensures competition only by subsidizing the others -- unless its true goal is establishing hegemonic monopoly for its "friends" with kickback for itself. The trouble with monopolies is that they ultimately kill themselves -- precisely as laughably managed GM has now managed to do. Sadly, all Americans have paid for this -- in dollars and in blood. Ike warned us.

[Bryan90260]

The only good news out all of this is that most of those GM executives may have died by now buried 6 feet under in there gold plated caskets.

[frankpatton]

This is a classic argument technique, blame the messenger, you don't provide any information that disputes the information provided. LA presently is trying to rebuild the transportation system it once had. The problem with the Red Cars was it was privately owned and was bought out by another privately owned company - GM. They bought it because it was competition, a classic bait and switch, get rid of the competition by buying it and then getting rid of it free market enterprise at work.

[Corvettably]

That's ironic. Rather than listen to my message that simple economic factors, not GM killed the streetcar, you attack me the messenger.

Read the Wiki article and links and the Slater article. It specifically, with citations, refutes your claims. You can even read the pdf version right from Wikipedia so you don't have to go to a library with journal subscriptions.

BTW, How did GM killed the street cars in LA, who killed the other 90% of the lines that were never linked to GM?

[frankpatton]

I used to ride the red cars corvetteably, you must work for GM with that name, keep your head in the sand the view must be great from there. Corporate ripoffs are nothing new, why don't they just run for president and skip the middle man - you know that they are people don't you? Vote for GM instead of Obama next time, it's all the same now that the corporate high and mighty court in of the U.S is now openly owned by the likes of GM... it's not a pleasing picture.

[Corvettably]

No I don't work for GM. I guess with your name you must work for the Army?

GM has almost certain done shady things in its past. However, it's dumb when people perpetuate a myth while ignoring the cold hard facts that streetcars cost more to run than buses. We don't have to like the bailout but what the hell does that have to do with trams?

Anyway, go look this stuff up on Wikipedia. LOTS of into which dispels the crap that Slater claimed. Simple economics killed the streetcar.

[Corvettably]

Sorry, in my other post I said Slater, Snell is the one who tried to gain political points by spreading these lies.

[inkey2]

I'd like to sit on the roof of that electric trolly and eat a ham sandwich

[RetiredInKalifornia]

The video is nice but true history of demise of streetcars & inteurbans begins long before "conspiricy" mentioned in this video. Few privately-owned U.S. traction cos. "made money," trolleys were "come ons" in tandem with selling real estate before automobiles became common and after WWI were irrevelant to U.S. transportation systems development. People vote with wallets, "personal transit" will remain supreme outside congested urban areas for indefinite future.

[intercityrailpal]

@RetiredInKalifornia February 2010 update

More than 50 cities are now trying to replace the billions of dollars of damage the auto industry has done to the country. We now also import a trillon dollars a year in oil. We fight wars for it too.People do vote with their wallets, that's why these new electric (american powered) rail systems are run a way successes. There there's the bailouts of the foreign owned auto industry. A trilion dollars a year gone forever!

[RetiredInKalifornia]

I worked in the public transit business for 31 years and know first hand how "effective" it is which is to say near zero unless you're in highly dense urban areas negligable. Land use dictates transportation and critical decisions were made following WWI about U.S. urban land uses which is to say towards "personal mobility" Sorry, but your wrong about U.S.A. urban rail successes, not if you do modal split analysis, autos still perdominate, more people walk to destinations than transit.

[newpage123]

just like its illegal for me to ride a moped on the sidewalk, that fact that i cant ride a 50cc vehicle on the sidewalk with no license or insurance blows my mind and nobody sees it, they force us to work to make money just to pay for insurance, its a horrible wasteful cycle, it only takes 50cc to propel a human being down the sidewalk yet it is illegal

[inkey2]

@newpage123 : well if you did ride it down the sidewalk and hit & injured someone.....you would be sued for possibly everything you have (or will have). Then you would realize why you need insurance

[Corvetteably]

GM killing the street cars is a myth. It's the sort of thing idiots believe when they are trying to figure out how to sell a Nova in Mexico.

Read "General Motors and the Demise of Streetcars" by Cliff Slater.

Learn a bit rather than perpetuate myths.

[timesplitters333]

so its wasnt the oil companies who killed the electic car?

[intercityrailpal]

@timesplitters333 These are the same people who questioned whether the fumes from diesel buses were really bad for you. And suggested at public hearing, that in fact it might be good for you!!!!

[Bryan90260]

I was to young to remember the street cars in L.A. but I do remember all those GM buses with there Firestone tires.

[intercityrailpal]

@Bryan90260 They didn't stop with LA they went across the country doing it. Then killed the intercity passenger rail by putting the US mail on their trucks.That was most of the income of the trains.They went everywhere they could around the world! They made too much money at it to stop. Trouble is alot of these people who got rich on this hate the US! And use this money against us.

[kevthor64]

My father who is 82 yrs old remembers the street cars and how they died. He always said that GM, Firestone tire, and Standard Oil, were the ones who killed it. He and I have always lived in Ohio, by the way standard oil co. gas stations in Oh. were called SOHIO. They didn't buy the trolleys, they worked out a deal with Youngstown and Warren OH, to supply the busses tires and fuel. Stating they could reach more ppl that way then they stopped the program after the trolleys were gone.

[TrainmasterCurt]

Boycott GM, bring back the streetcars!! May'be GM should cease to exist and instead of Governments giving money to GM, give it to the Cities to rebuild streetcars!

[wilyceyote]

GM suck??

[MeritisDE]

GM is of the worst corporate citizens known along with Montsanto.

[Atomsmasher777]

GM stinks like shit. American executives are amongst the greediest pigs that ever walked the Earth.

[emforty2]

Why would a car company like GM buy the electric rails around the country?

GM is bankrupt ! ha ha ha ha

[socalltd]

GM did this to sell more cars, to use oil, awfull goodyear tires and sell maintinances on their 8MPG cars.

[DennisMorawski]

This is Bullshit. The whole Pacific Electric system started losing money in 1925. People choose to drive cars. Inch by inch and line by line PE went out of business. GM had nothing to do with it.

[kemetnusayf]

While that may be true, there is a bitof information on wikipedia about GM's role in the destruction of the key system in Oakland starting in the 1940's. Not to mention a streetcar named desire. LA just happened to be one of the largest in the country. GM had a LOT to do with it

[intercityrailpal]

PE was owned by SP. SP was taken over by UP. Guess who sits on the board of "directed" of UP? EX-GM and oil people. They have very good covers today. But money finds away. That trillion dollars a year in imported oil money finds away too! Right back to Wall Street, and K Street Washington, D.C. Lobbist who lobby against passenger rail today.

[jemdude22]

Trams have survived in many European cities till to date and remained as one of the most popular, environmentally -friendly modes of the public transport in the urban areas, thanks to the absence of GM conspiracy!

[ACLTony]

There's a lot of truth to this vid. Guys a book that's worth checking out: "Derailing America, General Motors Mark of Success!" Good reading with a lot of factual, gritty details. Sad fact that once a rail line (freight, trolley or interurban) is gone, it's extremely unlikely that it will come back unless demand is overwhelming.

It's so ironically sad that now GM is on the verge of bankruptcy as it helped destroy the streetcar / interurban system.

[neilemac]

Standard oil Firestone and others bought up railroads and tore up the tracks. Sold oil gas and tires instead. All for the good of America mind you! Oops, I mean for greed of the few in good ole America more like it, eh. Sheesh!.

[ceomeye]

This is the truth. If you look how oil plays a big part to the bush regime and oil companies, this also linked to big car companies. It is a conspiracy to poison people in the cities and to make a profit based on killing people with car emissions that are environmentally hazardous to your health, your children, and any one who breaths the poison that America conspires to poison the populace to make a quick dollar. It is SAD and you should start think about it..

[jayrod59]

This is simply false. The rail system had decided to go to buses 4 years before GM bought them. The rail system cave in to the masses. They simply all wanted cars back then and wanted some place to drive them. I have a link but cannot get it to post.

[OldDood]

No it is NOT False. This is what happened. GM decided they needed to sell more cars and then convert everyone to buses. Or better put FORCE people to ride buses.

This has been documented for quite some time now.

I rather take a light rail system then ride a damn bus.

Wouldn't YOU?

[sptrain98]

I am so tired of this shit! The American public decided, in its infinite wisdom, to support the "bussification" of its transit systems.

[Intransitman]

Well a lot of the American public supported slavery too at one time.

National City Lines, GM's front company was involved with busition of streetcar lines.

Though they aren't the main reason. It has more to do governmnet transport policy that is hostile rail in general.

That's why over half of America's rail system is missing.

[Intransitman]

Still to this day American transport policy is hostile to rail.

There use to 260,000 miles of track in the US now there 140,000.

Railroads have to operate on a profit or loss basis, though roads like the one in front of your house don't have to.

Also rail transport use 1/10 the energy of road transport.

[SteveTodey]

GM needs to go DOWN... so we can live better!!!

[ehunter2]

1. The ENERGY EQUATION...

does it take more energy to produce the energy used in the vehicle? The answer to almost all "alternative" energy is YES.

Hydrogen Cars..need Electrolysis to produce hydrogen

Electric Cars..run on electricity produced by the conversion of fossil fuels

Solar Cars ..dont work except under exceptional conditions and even then they dont really work in a practical manner

[rageatm4life]

the first water engine was created by a new zealnader who was latter killed in a tractor accident HMMMMMMMMMMM sounds like a conspiracy when he was visited by the oil companies to keep his mouth shut

[hybridracers]

does anyone know why this whole video has dissapeared? Cant find it anywhere.......

[juancaralb]

I'm in your shoes. Who killed the electric street car documentary? If I find something, you will be the first personal I will let know. I hope you keep me in mind if you obtain any info. Thanks in advance.

[7boon]

Most ironic, is the GM is about to go broke within a few months.

[stupidtreehugger]

Truth will out.

Hemp was a miracle crop set to supply ALL our FUEL (methanol and oil) PLASTIC, clothing, paper and building material needs CLEANLY AND SUSTAINABLY. but Dupont had toxic petro patents.

DDT was the safest pesticide known to man, until Dupont's patent on it ran out.

CFCs were safe, until Dupont's patent on them ran out.

Flourine was an intensly toxic mind control agent, until the aluminium industry didn't know what to do with its effluent...

[stupidtreehugger]

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hussein: every single dictator has been financed by the same global banksters and they all payed back their loans. Every US President is related to the British royal family lines. US electronic voting machines and lists have been hacked to cheat elections (Greg Palast). The elite puppetmasters rule from the shadows of the 3 + 2 City States and their flag.

video.google:

The Money Masters

The Truth About Vaccines

The Future of Food

The Hidden Agenda

[rageatm4life]

explain how the u.s presidents are related to the british royal family by the way the real british royal family is not in power anymore

[stupidtreehugger]

If you bothered to follow the links I've already given you would know.

[zbake11]

They should have focused on Detroit (where GM is HQed, sorry.) where the end of the streetcar was the beginning of the end for Detroit. The building of the freeways here ruined great neighborhoods, like Black Bottom and Paradise Valley, and segregated Detroit even more.

[Streetcar1743]

Shame on the conspiritors.  They should be thrown in jail for 90 years.

[reluctantpopstar]

The public certainly didn't help. Everybody wanted their own cars. They bought into the lie that the freeway system was the perfect solution. We know how that turned out.

It also didn't help that the streetcar companies couldn't make a profit. They were required to repair the streets they ran on. Electric power utilities that owned streetcar systems had to sell them due to anti-trust laws. GM and Firestone did conspire, but many factors contributed.

[joness105639]

freeways work fine when you dont have a large population to congest it.

[TrainmasterCurt]

But the truth is, that buses will fade and Electric LRT and Streetcars, Interurbans will make a comeback soon, we need such an improvement, i live in Winnipeg, and i am so sick of having buses as the only public transit option, hmm wonder if GM killed our streetcar system too?? Damn greedy corporates! all they love is money, they don't care about the public

[firekeeper38]

Actually, Popstar, mixing cause and effect. The average joe couldn't afford it and had no reason to want to. Autos take an huge chunk of income to get/maintain and are utterly unsafe. Accidents account for more death, each year, than more than half our wars together.

This was to force people to acquire cars they didn't want and to depend on it. Years of ads have convinced us of a need that doesn't really exist. Building cities around mass transit means that many forgo cars their whole lives

[StopFirestone]

In addition to being involved in this scandal, Bridgestone/Firestone uses child labor, abuses workers' rights and pollutes the environment on its rubber plantation in Liberia. Check out the Stop Firestone YouTube channel for more information.