October 3, 1863.President Lincoln's Proclamation sets 1 day in Nov. as an official NATIONAL DAY OF THANKSGIVING (unifying many regional celebrations). It expresses Thanks (to God) for the Glories of Nature & the PRODUCTIVITY (plough,axe,mines) that continued outside the "lamentable"..."theatre of military conflict." It was Thanks for all the GOOD, N-O-T VIOLENCE. He asks citizens to "implore" the "Almighty" to "restore . . . peace, harmony, tranquility & Union." Anything wrong with that? PEACE.
@mjcamck Those r ALL good reasons--I grant u--Lincoln was cool--saved the nation--though he had hung 40 Dakota in 1862.Outside your ideal, however, people in this messy world still r using native stereotypes to celebrate Th.--ie 10,000 well meaning schools have pageants of kids wearing paper headresses (ersatz Plains!!--not Narragansett). These stereo.'s r harmful to native children. Do u have any nat. friends? Check out that Narrangan. guy's post--you'll get an earful on Thanksg.
True: the Mayflower Pilgrims didn't call their 1621 harvest feast "Thanksgiving." In the 1600's, official "Thanksgivings" consisted of prayer, not meals. Later, several groups declared formal "Thanksgiving" celebrations after violent massacres. However it is ONLY the NAME - JUST the NAME that was incorporated into modern Thanksgivings which commemorate 50 YEARS of Pilgrim/Indian PEACE - NOT, NOT, NOT MASSACRES. Please. Why are some determined to turn every human positive into a negative? PEACE.
@mjcamck Well, lets ditch the name--call it Peace Day---and then there might be a lot less controversy. you contradicted yourself in sentence 3 and 4. I'm not trying to turn it negative--but as you see this day has caused MUCH pain for Native American people and their supporters--and continues to do. Wouldn't it be great to go past YT and have a cross cultural conference on this. You might hear some other points of you--not just mine, of course. Peace.
Mayflower Pilgrims did NOT participate in the 5/26/1631 Pequot Massacre when OTHER English leaders declared an "official" Thanksgiving. Confusion stems from the fact that Gov. Bradford describes the horrendous scene (relayed to him by witnesses) in his book "Of Plimouth Plantation." A close read clarifies what 'THEY" did by 'THEIR" actions which pleased "THEM" not "we" "ours" or "us." The "they" was both Indian (Narrangansett, Mohegan) & Mass.Bay Puritans NOT Plymouth Pilgrims. Truth & PEACE.
@mjcamck Today's holiday, again, is NOT based on that historic meal (u should know better)--but rather repeated 'thanksgivings' by the Puritans after massacres of natives, such as the Pequot. Washington combined all these heinous 'holidays' into 1 day--later Lincoln codified them into a nat. holiday. So T 'ing is 3/4 massacre, 1/4 Charlie Brown's Pilgrims. What a farce!! I DO like that that people get together 4 dinner 4 thanks--THAT'S a good thing. But the rest? No thank u--wicked.
Thanksgiving does NOT celebrate a massacre. It commemorates "a special time of friendship between 2 very different groups of people" (Wampanoag Tribe Website). The Mayflower Pilgrims WERE INVITED to stay on the land by Chief Massasoit who wanted them (& their weapons) for his tribe's defense against the threatening Mohegan & Narragansett tribes. While not specifically called such, it was a Feast of Thanksgiving which included a prayer of thanks as ALL meals did. Continued on next post . . .
@mjcamck Well, yes, it does--indirectly (days of grace after massacres)--with your intelligence you should know better. I do hope you read at least as many books about NE tribes as you do about the Pilgrims--sit down with them and get their point of view. I have enjoyed your posts and am glad that there was atleast a .5% of invaders who got along and respected the natives. Try to go to Schemutzen--its one of the biggest pow wows in the U.S.--really awesome--at the Foxwoods Casino.
@mjcamck Just TRY to get out of your fairy tale/misconceptions regarding the black origins of this 'holiday'!! 'The truth will set you free'. I don't deny the Pilgrims were good people (though some were certainly opportunists--lets not put them on a wedding cake). Let us DISASSOCIATE the Pilgrims kindness from the wicked ORIGINS of 'Thanksgiving'--then we will be able to appreciate BOTH much better--and not smirch the memory of massacred NE tribes! Thank you.
@mjcamck Excuse me, Lincoln may have also based part of the codified holiday on the Pilgrims meal--but its whirled in a blender with the other massacres (I will do more research). Very complex and stormy for such a day of thanks (the latter being a good thing).
So, lemme get this straight. The european comes here, kills off most of the natives, steals their land/home, and now it's situation that is celebrated every year. Then they go and steal an entire people, make them slaves. "Greatest country on the planet." MY ASS!!! This is "The Land of the THIEF. Home of the SLAVE.
@TRUGOD7 - Hello.Thanksgiving does NOT celebrate murder, theft & slaving. It commemorates THE OPPOSITE: a brief moment in HUMAN (not just European) history when 2 groups of people lived & worked together in PEACE FOR 50 YEARS. Please see ABOVE POSTS for more details. It was The Wamapanoag Tribe who shared the 1621 harvest feast (the type of which had been held globally since societies began) & their website (pokanoket.us) describes the event POSITIVELY as noted ABOVE. Please. PEACE.
One and all please go to the post: "What are you really celebrating? Thanksgiving" It gives a different and more Native American view point on this 'holiday'.
2.The references to heaven, hell, the Triune nanture of God & three white thrones come from James Adair-a trader(note; traders weren't known for being churched)who lived among the Cherokee prior to their acceptance of Christianity-
3.The Cherokee were very intrigued & impressed with the Bible & Christianity when exposed to it by the Moravians & George Wesley, but uninterested in converting due to the behavior of the settlers as opposed to that of the missionaries.
@EmetTalmudim6 I wouldn't trust a traders writings--I would bet you a classy dinner all of that is completely false. Don't u have a oral tradition? Elders? Books of Cherokee spirituality? You might do a little reading. I must correct you: in my research of Indian nations there are NO concepts of 'hell' or 'heaven'--those r distinctively Judaic/Christ./Muslim concepts-which have gotten the world's cultures into no end of trouble . There ARE 'good/bad' native afterworld places.
1.The trader's account is based on oral tradition-Note; Precontact & pre-missionary influenced- among various other sources; Given peace between the Cherokee & the traders lasted c100 yrs & the unchurched condition of most traders, JudeoChristian influence is highly unlikely..
2.Did I specifically say heaven or hell? All I said was the concept of a place with Yah in the sky for the righteous & a place of fire for the wicked is present in the precontact beliefs.
@EmetTalmudim6 did you know that fire is sacred for many native people? my navajo friend reminded me that it is holy, keeps us warm, cooks food, inspires, of course, you have to be careful with it. to send people to a place filled with holy fire and call it 'hell' made no sense to many native people.
@windstorm1000 "You have to be careful with it", Exactly;Did you know God is called a consuming fire in the Bible? The issue is to those who are out of God's will this will be a dreadful thing because Light-by it's very nature expels darkness-, to those who are in God's will it is nothing to dread because via Christ we are drawn to its benafits. In otherwords what makes hell hell & heaven heaven is where we stand in relation to their Creator.
@EmetTalmudim6 Native people taught us that the greatest heaven is an abundant earth--this is heaven on earth, where we are now--and probably will be later on. To pine for another world strumming on a cloud passes the buck for living in balance in this one. Try to see things outside of your own vision, you might just learn something.
1.By who's standard; people's or God's? When they put together powwow regalia Natives leave a rip or some other error or shortcoming to remind them that only God is perfect.
2.Every cosmology-one way or another-acknowledges the world is less than it was created to be because of a broken taboo at the beginning; In other words the whole Lion King notion of sickness, death & life's other problems as part of the"Circle of Life" & natural doesn't exist traditionally.
@EmetTalmudim6 People ARE God--the kingdom of God lies within you--when humans will stop projecting their beliefs outward, then there will be peace on this earth free from religious dogma. I trust far more in native beliefs than I ever would in Christianity with its incredibly checkered human rights history. I love Jesus and his message of compassion and tolerance--I just don't like his 'followers'--the distortions started with vengeful Paul and haven't quit.
@windstorm1000 "I love Jesus & His message of compassion & tolerance";
1.Did you knowJesus taught much more about hell then He did heaven?
2.Love without justice isn't love; Were I to only speak of God's love, mercy, grace, & forgiveness you would rightly ask, "Where is justice?"
"Christianity's checkered history";
Just curious, do you-in principle at least-believe all people are inherantly equal with the inalienable right to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness?
@EmetTalmudim6 In our long discourse, I can tell u r a hard liner not willing to give up an 'inch' of your point of view (where I have been open). That, most certainly, is not the Indian point of view--it appears u have given up the ways of your ancestors--people would trade a fortune to have spiritual traditions such as yours that u have turned your back on! Too bad!! Christ was not the master of telling of hell--he was the master of faith, hope and charity. Christian twist!
@EmetTalmudim6 Yes, I of course believe in life, liberty, and pursuite of happiness--curious question coming from a right wing Christian--people not known for their comprimise or openness (like Muslims).
@windstorm1000 "Yes, I of course believe in life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness";
Question; Does the fact that people haven't always lived up to that principle-including those who set its foundations at times-& that some, while giving it lip service, have in practice opposed it make that principle any less true?
@EmetTalmudim6 U have me there. Human beings, for the most part, have not lived up to their promise as evolved spiritual entities. But the spiritualty of some cultures seem so much less destructive than others--Christianity has far & away caused more harm to indiginous cultures & the health of the Earth than all others put together. Look at where things r now--the planet is dying because of greed & selfishness--part caused by Christian attitude--'a better world awaits this 1'.
@windstorm1000 "The Spirituality of some cultures seem so much less destructive than others ect";
A.According to Natives there's a better world than this one & a worse one as well.
B.Virtually every cosmology recognizes that evil, sickness & death are not natural & that this world is not what it was originally.
C.Then again Christianity isn't human in origin but Divine-Again back to the assertion of the US Declaration; What one does with that doesn't invalidate its assertion-
@EmetTalmudim6 U didn't catch my meaning correctly--indigenous cult.s lived more in harmony w the rhythyms of Earth. The Industrial Rev. till now has caused widespread destruction. There may be little time 4 humans left on this earth. Christinity spread the false doctrine of 'subdue the earth'--what a terrible legacy 4 our children & children's child. Look around u. This will be my last post to u--I've learned some--thanks-maybe its been reciprocal..
A.Humanity's context being that we were ASSIGNED the earth as STEWARDS according to the literal Hebrew
B.The earth's context being that when satan via pride fell earth & the universe were contaminated outside of Eden, thus we were created to be God's abassadors.
@EmetTalmudim6 Yes (I knew you'd find the words). But humanity has mostly not lived up to those wise principals. Look at this damaged, ailing earth. The native people HAVE--until very recently--and many still do--that's why I admire their cultures and spirituality. I felt Spirit touch me and give me life answers when I went on my vision quest many years ago in a beautiful forest--I never felt that rapture in a square box church nor reading the Bible.
2.Native "environmentalism"; Sure if you don't count how ancient Natives contributed massively to global warming via hunting fires & mass prehistoric extinction via overhunting.
3.Feelings or the lack there of;
"Your feelings can deceive you, don't trust them." Obiwon Kinobi.
@EmetTalmudim6 According to the Bible, there's only; 1 sacrifice 1 prayer 1 Tree of Life 1 direct connection to God 1 offering of flesh & blood 1 suffering only 1 that can & will completely & permanently benafit & make everyone & anyone in humanity over again & make them family & a community-NO MATTER WHAT THEY'VE DONE OR WILL DO- only 1 Who can make the whole world over again(PERMANENTLY & IRRIVOCABLY). His name's Jesus Christ-God incarnate; Thus God's only Heir/"Son"-
@EmetTalmudim6 tell that to 50 million Muslims, a billion Buddhists, etc, etc. We are responsible for our own sins/karma--no one else can take that on. There is NO such thing as original sin. don't believe everything you read in the Bible--half of it is archaic tribal shibboliths--and Paul had a huge axe to grind--which wasn't Christ's that's for sure. And the gospels were written 30-40 years after the 'event'--one has to wonder how accurate. So many inconsistancies
1.Because as Tevye-AH IF I WERE A RICH MAN! LOL-observed "He is right & he is right? They cannot both be right." Because logic dictates; Either "the sky" is "blue" or it is "white with red pokadots & greens stripes"
2.The cross nomore takes away from someonne's personal responsability than the fact that the smart thing for a proven criminal to do is throw themselves on the mercy of the court does.
2.The only thing the Church-& by that I mean people, not what God created it to be & do-screwed up on its specific function; What I mean is the Jews, among other things, were called to administer earthly punishments to those who knew better & refused to be made better to illustrate God's eternal principles of justice, righteousness, & holiness.
Conversely the Church was called to proclaim God's eternal principles of Love, undeserved favor, mercy, & forgiveness.
@EmetTalmudim6 those are all good things--and those things are inside of us as part of a Higher Power. there may be differences between a higher power and fallible man--and then again there may not be. It all depends whether one thinks the Bible is divinely written (some/some not)--there's the Koran, Buddism too. Popes were paid off for indulgences to get to heaven faster. The Catholic church is very rich--but getting poorer for those priests who are pedophiles.
@EmetTalmudim6 Right, you got it--so why are you refuting the culture/rites these pious people who are not yours in the later post? That's arrogant, man. There not doing it to stop sin--but to keep life going--has NOTHING to do with Christian teachings which are sin/fear based. You really need to hang out with different types of people.
@windstorm1000 Note; My most recent post to you-prior to this one-regards heaven on earth.
Regarding respecting the earth See;
Genesis
2;15
&
6; 19-21
But any such respect is to be DUE; Even by Native standards the creation is not the Creator. Beyond that, by God's standard, humanity alone is designed in His image & likeness-So, since we represent God to the rest of creation as He is God over us & them, we should conduct ourselves so but not at the expense of His priority, us-
@EmetTalmudim6 Whole reams of the Bible are pure fable--ie the world created in 7 days, Adam and Eve, etc and etc. Its really full of whoppers. If one believes in even a modicum of science the whole thing falls apart like a pack of cards. i will check out Genesis--but doubt it will change my mind on the matter. Truly, the most intelligent belief is humanism--ie Einstein, Sagan--less dogmatic & still seeing the world as a rational designed place--but NOT by one omtipotent being.
@EmetTalmudim6 Bumper sticker: "I like Jesus, but I don't like his followers" Anthropology says that the world being created in 7 days is a complete Biblical pipe dream. Fossil evidence clearly points in evolutionary system of the earth (that's old news)--why debate science? Do you believe everything you read? You seem like an intelligent guy. "When religion ruled the world it was called the Dark Ages "---another bumper sticker
@windstorm1000 I have no issues with science or logic-God's the Author of them afterall-but with the assumptions of "scientists." pt 1
1.Creation a matter of days vs "science";
A.Then Native & every other cosmology is wrong too.
B..Transitional Forms; First, that contradicts Native cosmology a lot more than the Bible. Second, If you're talking about primative canine=modern canines, no problem. If you're talking about primative reptile=primative mammal, big problem.
@EmetTalmudim6 "God" is an incredibly limiting term--you know for many a white guy on a cloud with a long beard. The conception of a universal energy--which we are a part of--goes far beyond the limited powers of human imagination--or faith. I suggest you view Cosmos with Carl Sagan of the infentesmal wonder of the universe--which is evolving, chaotic, imperfect--but more generous on Earth. This is called Humanism--the most lodgical 'faith'/science--that goes past dogma
B.Jesus came as Middle Eastern Jew of Afro-Asiatic ancestry; you do the math as far as dominent ethnic traits.
2.Humanism, evolution & Gnosticism; Since Native cosmology acknowledges a personal Creator above man & that man was created as man one has no business in a Sweat Lodge IF humanism & evolution are true. IF Gnosticism is true then the Native notion of Creator can't be true(see 2)
@EmetTalmudim6 I knew I was going into a sticky wicket with humanism and my personal beliefs of Nat. people--but I find nat. belief more in line with universal sacred energy of ALL living creatures--stones, stars, trees--the sap of the universe. I don't get that with Christianity--I know you'll come up with some scriptural verse to refute--I was NEVER taught scripture of taking care of the earth in 20 years of mass going/confirmation, etc. Have some humor--I assume you have some.
In other words what you had in the case of European colonization was GRADUALLY people who claimed to be Christians-again as my grandma used to say if they were theyd've "lived it"-usurping the Jews' specific Old Testament function; It'd be like a nurse or fireman trying to be a police officer or security guard.
3.Who knows more about the US Civil War or the Great Depression; Those who were there or those who weren't there, writing about it long after the facts?
@windstorm1000 I have no issues with science & logic etc. pt2
2.Do I believe everything I read;
A.When the Author's perfect I do.
B.A basic tenant of science's "The simplest explanation's usually the correct one"; It's a takes much more faith to believe primative fish gradually=primative primate etc.(random series of cosmic accidents or not), which again contradicts most cosmology .
3.The Dark Ages; Oh you mean the postRoman Reneisance fostered by Christianity that saved the West.
@EmetTalmudim6 Yes, men came from fish--I'm proud of that--its all in fossil record---no 'problem' w me. I'm reading an interesting book of Enoch & hidden gospels that Jesus married Mary Mag., moved to France, had kids--he then taught that we all have God within us, but the church, obviously, wanted to consolidate its power--ie 1 could only find the divine through the church--& sin/ damnation were for anybody who didn't tow the line. Lots of people just don't swallow that bunk.
@EmetTalmudim6 I'm not going to get into theological debates w you anymore as you r very set in your beliefs--my Navajo friend say that some Christians are intolerent--its their way or the highway. I'm glad you have strong spirit center but it might do u well to get out of your 'box'. Where do u live? If there's a pow wow close by--go to it, listen to the Drum, feel the heart beat of Mother Earth (God is not just a 'He'), watch the dancers go round & round--then get back to me.
3.I was refering to your assertion regarding Biblical events; The point's since God is all that He is it stands to reason-short of contradicting His nature-orchestrating said events are no biggy.
As for your friends experiences with "Christians" that depends on whether they truly were that(IE did they really know Jesus). If they did, like my grandma always said, "they'd live it."
Again, no Native cosmology regards earth as THE Creator but as a created procreator.
1.Moses; he was a nomadic shepherd who'd spent age 40-80 getting to know the region nonstop prior to that. Since God's perfect one's not likely to take a wrong turn at Abu Dabi.
2. 7 days; Most Native cosmologies describe it having taken place in a matter of days(Cherokees are in agreement as to the number being 7). What's time to He Who is timeless?
3.Since'll take a bit I'll get back to you about the archeology.
@EmetTalmudim6 I'm of the human natio. Kidding aside, I do not have Indian blood in me, but feel spiritually attuned to tribal teachings I've been following for years--the Ojibwe & Lakota specifically. U, an Indian, go to your Sunday preacher & I, a white man go to my sweat lodge--ironic--heh? So u see the Pipe is not just meant for Red People (3B., right?!). Why aren't u following the ways of your ancestors? The sweat feels SO much more spiritual to me than church--I love it.
@EmetTalmudim6 There is lot in common betw. Nat. Peoples & Old Testa. regarding flood story 'myths'--bu there's also much that's different. I don't know Cherokee trad.'s, but the bit I've researched says the Creator was a "She"--why should she be a "He"? Women are more in tune. There is no '3 white thrones' in heaven-no 'heaven', per se, & definitely no 'hell' in Ch. or other native trad.'s. Those r all Christian. concepts that, most unfortunately, some natives had to accept.'
1.If you're referencing Wikipedia, incorrect; Yowa was He, references to she was regarding the sun-again the context is delegated not inherant authority. In otherwords there was A school of thought similar to Catholic theology regarding the st's. in which the lesser creation were seen as conduets to Yah-Than again that comes from the Anikutani(an extinct priesthood who demanded women, & human sacrifice)& so were overthrown prior to European contact.
@windstorm1000 "Why aren't you following the ways of your ancestors?";
1.As demonstrated above, because the Bible is reflected in a culture that did not have the Bible(in this case my own, but the same is true to some degree or other in all cultures). Thus the Scripture is confirmed; See Acts17;22-28 Romans1;19, 20
2.Because all religions say,
"DO, DO, DO [etc]! & IF your good deeds outway your bad deeds you MIGHT merit heaven."
@windstorm1000 As I promised, here's the archeological references; Ancient Secrets of the Bible(CBS) Digging For the Truth, The Series(History Channel) Ancient Discoveries of the Bible(History Channel) Lost Kings of the Bible(National Geographic) The Quest For the Ten Lost Tribes(A&E/History Channel) Eye Witness To Jesus(TLC) The Stones Cry Out Exodus Revealed The Search For the Real Mount Sinai Jesus; Who Do Men Say I AM? Jesus; The Search Continues
Don't anyone put flowers on the grave of Mass. military general John Mason--he was responsible for massacreing part of the Pequot nation in 1637. A Puritan devil if there ever was one.
@EmetTalmudim6 That treaty backfired on 50,000 people eventually--and the Wampanoag lost their land. The W. did not know who they were dealing with in the long run--though they found out. Its fine to celebrate that atleast a few Europeans respected native culture. By why celebrate it to the exclusion of what happened afterwards?-that is selective history through the microscope. There WERE battles between tribes--but they didn't bring pop. levels to 10 % as did Euro. 'treaties'
1.EVENTUALLY being the operative word. The point is for c50 yrs-A generation by our standards & given life expectancy 2 generations by theirs-there was peace, & the promise given was fulfilled.
2.Because celebrating the good times is the point & purpose of the holiday; A holiday is not the time to focus on & deal with all that's gone wrong-Which given where we're at now is a little pointless anyway-Holidays are stressful enough as is.
@windstorm1000 - The Wampanoag website describes the 1621 Pilgrim/Wampanoag Harvest Feast: "IT WAS A SPECIAL TIME OF FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN TWO VERY DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE" (pokanoket.us). Due to large land tracts returned to tribes in the 70's, many are experiencing expansion. TO HELP: Contact your Congressional Reps. re Native bills.Current Action House Action Needed on SRes329 designating November as Native Indian Heritage Month. Please. Let's work TOGETHER in PEACE.
Also, history is not a vacuum of unrelated events--the intentions of one group can be quickly undermined by related people. I seriously doubt that the Pilgrims were to a man had the best intentions of the natives in mind. They probably saw it in "God's Providence" that the land was empty since 1614 small pox. Where are all the native people in New England now? Where are they? Answer me that--and take off your rose colored spectacles! There are victims in history--do not deny that! Enough.
@windstorm1000 - Hello.Civility, please? ANSWER:in the 1970's LARGE land tracts were returned to Native Indian Tribes complete w/sovereignty for each. Billions in direct financial reparations built(d) roads, schools & businesses. In 2012, The Pequot Tribe owns Foxwoods Resort & Casino in Mashantucket, CT.,The Narrangansett Tribe is centralized near Charleston, RI, & the Wampanoag, Millbury, Mass. Numbers are increasing. Even Native Languages are returning. Did you know? Peace.
@mjcamck Only three hundred years too late--like Hitler saying to concentration camp survivors in 1944, "Oh, you can have your synagogues back now". cultural genocide can really f---- up a culture, know what I mean? I did not know about the land reparations--thank you for sharing. Still, I am glad they have gotten a bit of their own back and that they can get their cultures back to semblance. It will never be what it once was, of course.
@windstorm1000 But then the Pilgrims & Puritans-being HyperCalvinists-would've seen it as God's will if they themselves had been struck with smallpox; thus, they were not singling the Indians out. Nor were they that different from them in tha regard; To both Natives & HyperCalvinists everything was a message from God.
We go on & on about how different they were, but the settlers & Indians had much in common. If you're too much alike you tend to get on each others' nerves.
@EmetTalmudim6 There were MANY differences between how the natives worshiped and how the calvinists...I don't have the time OR space to go into the 50 different ways here--but will say that seeing the land as sacred was a huge wedge between natives and Puritans AND multi national corp.'s/consumers to this very day. Think of it. I urge you to read Lame Deer--it'lll explain. As far as your last statement--its very naive. One wishes for similarity. Look at the West Bank.
1.I wasn't referring to religious beliefs. The point's we tend to focus on all the Indians & the settlers didn't have in common, when in fact what they had in common had equally as much influence on what went wrong. Case in point; today we tend to think of the Lakota as victims when in fact they had a mafioso grip on trade on the Missouri, & were as guilty of pulling a land grab on the indigenous tribes of the Black Hills as the U.S. government later did to them.
@EmetTalmudim6 Where the HELL did you get your knowledge of Native American history mister??? A cracker jack box? If what u said about the Lakota is an example of what you know that would be like if my knowledge of Jews were strictly strung from Wagner's luntatic writings. U need to get out of your ignorance box & go to your libarary & read "Lame Deer Seeker of Visions"--when you have finished I will deem you more worthy of conversation on this complex topic. Until then....
& WHERE did these 'innocent, peaceful' people go after the harvest meal ended? Oz? Were they absorbed into the Puritans? U are the expert, u tell me. I stand somewhat corrected on the Pilgrims,but hold to my stance--& one held by advanced historians--that European settlement--however initially well intentioned--was in the long run a disaster for NE (& other) Indian nations. Why don't u speak to the Pequot/Narragansett/Wampanoag People (any left) NOW & get their take on this issue?
@windstorm1000 - Hello.YES, again, we KNOW & FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE that European gains were a TRAGIC LOSS for Native Tribes. Unfortunately, they were too busy fighting each other to stand united against the invasion. It's NOT & NEVER WAS "right." Explanation, NOT excuse:conquest by violence is GLOBAL & HUMAN History. Can we change the past?Seriously.OR, should we admit the UGLY spots & work TOGETHER to create prosperity & cultural protection for Native Indians today? Please. Peace.
@windstorm1000 - Where did the Pilgrims go? They were, slowly, absorbed into the larger Massachusetts Bay Puritan Colony (formally in 1691). Sadly, the intolerant Puritan Leaders FAILED to follow THE EXAMPLE OF THE PEACEFUL MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS & felt entitled to "conquer & convert" Natives, even by force. As for the view of the Mayflower Pilgrims, the WAMPANOAG Website describes the 1621 Harvest Feast as a "SPECIAL TIME OF FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN 2 DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE." Peace.
@mjcamck I thank u for your analysis, & i trust u thank me for mine. Its great that the Pilgrims were peaceful with the Indians---its most unfortunate that this did not last. Hence, the celebration of Thanksgving (that is only remotely connected to the above feast) is of a decidedly 'checkered' rememberance. The bad out weighs the good for me, therefore I choose not to celebrate it.
@windstorm1000 - Hello.I respect your right to refrain from observation of any holiday inc. Thanksgiving. I just hope you will respect the rights of those of us who believe that an occasion of two ethnically different groups of people sharing their skills & supplies w/ each other & living in PEACE FOR 50 YEARS is something worth celebrating while we also mourn the fact that the harmony didn't last. However, we can do MUCH MORE THAN MOURN. I hope you'll look at my next post...
@windstorm1000 - I decided to put the "action possible" information at the top of the page so, hopefully, more readers can see it. It encourages contacting Congressional Representatives about current bills of value to Native Indian Communities. I hope you'll look & consider turning some of your commendable passion & energy into positive, constructive ACTION. Thank you.
@mjcamck Yes, thank you for the heads up regarding the bill--I will write my rep. ITs not much, but its a start. half the foods we eat are from North/CentralSouth America. As far as my passion into action--I have worked on Native issues since 1984 (about 100 letters, marches, etc)--so I've been in the thick of a lot of things. keep up the good work, maybe we make can help enlighten American's knowledge on native issues---
@windstorm1000 - Hello. Now that it's passed the Senate, SRes329 has been sent to the House. The House Rules Committee says they have not formally docked it yet, but expect to after the current Cong. Recess concludes in a couple of weeks. You're right; at least it's a chance for Native American history & culture to be spotlighted as much as the Mayflower Pilgrims each November, especially their Successful 50 YEAR PEACE PACT. I've enjoyed "talking" with you. Best Wishes & PEACE!
I admit that there may have been some harmony between the first Pilgrims and SOME natives--but certainly the record is not 100 percent. We should not lose sight that further colonization of what became New England was a disaster for native tribes. i do not believe these issues have been addressed. The Pilgrims get heavy PR every year to the detriment of native tribes--it is like looking through a historical telescope from the wrong end. There is little dialogue and there needs to be.
@shutemdwn - Hello. Sorry, the Mayflower Pilgrims did NO SUCH THING. The incident you cite involved MASS. BAY PURITANS in 1637 - 16 Years AFTER the Plymouth Colony Harvest Feast shared by Mayflower Pilgrims & Wampanoag Indians in 1621, who also shared a Peace Pact which lasted 50 years. Please. Let's look for the good in people & celebrate harmonious, positive historical events. Please. Peace.
Hostility for atrocities committed by some colonists against Native Indians is justified. However, THANKSGIVING CELEBRATES THE POSITIVE, PEACEFUL ACTIONS OF THE FIRST GENERATION MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS ONLY who SAVED Indian lives & honored a PEACE PACT FOR 50 years.They did NOT enslave or annihilate anyone. All that ugliness was L-A-T-E-R by O-T-H-E-R-S. If anyone is concerned about justice, then let's refrain from blaming the INNOCENT Pilgrim Elders for the LATER actions of the guilty. Peace.
@mjcamck 'hostility for atrocities by some colonists against native indians is justified'---are you kiddingme??? that is a hitlerian point of view if there ever was one. you need to meet indian people and get their take on that era. seriously.
@windstorm1000-Hello.For your information, I communicated extensively w/Indians from assorted tribes (esp.Seminole) during my community organizing days & then while pursuing graduate studies (esp. Cherokee). They also lament the fact that the example of peace & cooperation set by THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIM & WAMPANOAG TRIBE Elders from 1621-1671 was NOT followed by their descendants & LATER arriving colonists.Why are you blaming all colonists for the actions of some?Seriously? Peace.
Also--just one more thing--and then I'll end on this post--every American needs to read the history book "A People's History of the U. S." by Howard Zinn. It should be required reading in all high schools. Mr. Zinn's book gives an unvarnished/more researched look at "Thanksgiving" and every other period in U..S. history that has been glossed over. Lack of true information enslaves perpetrators of misery and their victims to a 'looking glass' of lies that never ends. That needs to stop.
@windstorm1000 - Hello. Happy to converse at a later date, but for the next week, I've got numerous Christmas obligations. I appreciate your being civil. Neither the Mayflower Pilgrim NOR Wampanoag ELDERS were guilty of massacre; although SOME of their descendants failed to follow their example. Just for the record, Indian tribes killed each other for thousands of years before the English arrived. War is a HUMAN invention, NOT specifically an "European" one. Peace.
@mjcamck71 Your argument is specious. It is a documented fact that Europeans ACCELERATED warfare in the Americas by pitting one tribe against the other, by spreading blankets riddled with small pox, by slavery, etc etc. So your narrow view does not encompass the deviousness of colonial history over a 400 year span. Let us not even include the tyrant Columbus who simply worked Indians to death in mines as did other Spanish conqu.'s. Read this book: Chronicle of the Indian Wars.
@windstorm1000 - Hello.Again, your blaming the innocent, peaceful First Generation Mayflower Pilgrims for the LATER (or earlier) actions of OTHER colonists.Seriously. Columbus died in 1506. William Bradford wasn't even born until 1590.The Mayflower Pilgrims gave the Indians CLEAN, warm, factory-produced garments NOT disease ridden blankets. What, please, is your purpose in trying to paint these good & decent people as evil? Really. (PS-I'll answer any responses after my trip.)
As direct Mayflower Descendant, I THANK Samoset, Squanto & Chief Massasoit (WAMPANOAG Tribe) for saving Mayflower Pilgrim lives IN 1621. (These same Pilgrims SAVED Chief Massasoit's life & others in 1623). THE HORROR that came later WAS TRAGIC. So, so we invite others to do as my family has done - MAKE DONATIONS TO NATIVE INDIAN SOCIETIES & SCHOLARSHIP FUNDS. We can't change the past. We can only affect the present & future. PLEASE. Let's seek the GOOD in each other & work together for PEACE!
FACTS: the Peaceful 1621 MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS are NOT the same as the 1637 Mass. Bay PURITANS who did kill Indians. 1st Generation Mayflower Pilgrims were INVITED to stay on the land by Chief Massosoit, who wanted their guns & their manpower in defense against threatening tribes (Narransett, Pequot, Mohegan). The HORROR was LATER, by OTHERS. Thanksgiving celebrates a 50 year PEACE PACT, not Indian massacres. PLEASE. Let's emphasize the GOOD in humans & work to eliminate the bad. PEACE ALL!
This is total bull. The first thanksgiving was in St Augustine Florida when Spain captured St. Augustine with the indian's help. The spaniards and indians celebrated and it is known as the FIRST thanksgiving. And that happened in 1565 way before the first english colony.
@XDDominatorXD - Hello. History is filled with harvest feasts & rituals of gratitude. I don't claim to know why the Plymouth Thanksgiving is the one celebrated. I doubt it was any kind of intentional disrespect to the participants of the event in 1565. It may just have been written down in a few more places & more widely circulated. Nothing is stopping Floridians (I was one for 12 years) from celebrating their own Thanksgiving if they wish. Peace.
@meis - Hello. The only part I found "misleading" which I suspect was NOT intentional is the failure to point out that the Wampanoag brought much of the food, including 5 deer. What part do you consider misleading, please? Thank you.
@NanaBaakan - Hello. This IS TRUTHFUL; just incomplete. The 90 Wampanoag Indian Tribe members were the 54 Pilgrim's guests; they brought much of the food. THE WAMPANOAG INVITED THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS TO STAY ON THE LAND so the Pilgrims, w/ their muskets & metal weapons could stand with the Wampanoag in their battles against other IndianS. All the ugly, violent decimation of Indian people was done LATER, BY OTHERS, NOT, NOT THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS who had a PEACE PACT WHICH LASTED 50 YEARS. Peace.
@mjcamck This is a reasonable account. HOWEVER, today's Thanksgiving is NOT based on that harvest feast--which really was more a treaty get together. The Thanksgiving 's of today are based on annual 'holidays'of the 1630's on after hundreds of Indians were killed. AFter each battle, the govt called for a 'thanksgiving'--who would want to celebrate THESE atrocities??? Unintentionally or not??? Washington combined all these thanksgivings after massacres & Lincoln made them national
@windstorm1000 - Hello. Must be brief; have a houseful of Christmas guests. Just about ALL holidays & customs are COLLECTIONS of assorted parts which are added over the years. WHY is that a problem? The 1637 Pequot massacre/celebration was NOT the 1st Gen. Mayflower PILGRIMS who not only did NOT bring disease, they CURED INDIANS w/their advanced medical knowledge. Had their HARMONIOUS examples been followed, the atrocities would NOT have occurred. Peace.
@mjcamck71 Its on record that 1000's of NA's were wiped out by small pox brought by traders in 1614.The Pilg.s spread disease is a foregone conclusion--they were Euro., 1/2 their pop. died, they were in contact w NA's--ergo, they br.disease. There is no question of this. & they didn't cure Ind. (medical was medieval)--it was other way around. Squanto, of the few survivors of a wiped out tribe, brought "Joe Pye" to the Pilg.s that helped w flu, etc. Get your facts straightened out.
@windstorm1000 - Hello.Please.My facts ARE straight; the Bradford/Massasoit Peace Pact formalized cooperation & MUTUAL aid between 1st Generation Mayflower Pilgrims & Wampanoag Indians.Pilgrims DID save Indian lives, inc.Chief Massasoit (1623) & supplied superior metal tools. Indians also saved Pilgrim lives (farming skills & herbal medicine, inc.gravel weed aka J.Pye.) Why are you blaming Mayflower Pilgrims for disease in 1614 - 6 years before they even arrived? Seriously. Why?
@mjcamck If ever there was a mixed up history holiday its Thanksgiving. The Pilgrims were fairly peaceful compared to the later Puritans--BUT they brought disease with them that decimated thousands of people--so, you see, there can be genocides of different kinds. And remember today's Thanksgiving has NOTHING to do with that idealized harvest feast--today's holiday is based on numerous 'thanksgivings' by the Puritan govt after thousands of people were wiped out (natives). Nice, huh.
@NanaBaakan - Hello. Yours is a good question, so I checked. It was the Wampanoag Indians who shared the Harvest Feast in 1621 w/ the Mayflower Pilgrims. Their website (pokanoket.us) describes it thusly: "IT WAS A SPECIAL TIME OF FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN TWO VERY DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE." Very sadly, the descendants of both the Indian & Pilgrim Elders failed to follow their example of peaceful cooperation. Peace.
@mjcamck Gee, I wonder what happened to all those Wampanoag who had signed a a peace pact w the Pilgrims? If the Pil.'s didn't finish 'em off--who did? Wasn't there a little something called 'King' Philip's War in the 1670's where the W. were betrayed--& had to fight to keep their land? Of course--they didn't--& lost their heads--literally in the case of King Phillip--whose head was staked outside a Puritan town as a word to all transgressors. Those Puritans were some Christians,heh?
@windstorm1000 - Hello. King Phillip's War resulted from a failure of the children of BOTH the Plymouth Colony & Wampanoag Tribe Elders to follow their peaceful example. There was betrayal on BOTH sides. Metacom aka K.Phillip was killed by another Indian. Some Wampanoag were exiled by the very colonists they'd allied with in battle. ALL wars are tragic. Here in 2012, let us learn from the past & work TOGETHER to re-build Native Communities. Farewell Now & PEACE.
THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS ARE NOT THE "PURITANS" (from whom they had separated back in England). Thanksgiving celebrates the PEACE PACT between Gov. Bradford/ Mayflower Pilgrims & Chief Massasoit/Wampanoag Tribe between 1621-1671. ALL THE UGLY VIOLENCE WAS COMMITTED BY LATER COLONISTS such as Gov. Winthrop/PURITANS in a completely DIFFERENT AREA. Pilgrim medical skills saved Chief Massasoit's life in 1623. Indian farming skills saved the Pilgrims. They shared a 3-Day HARVEST FEAST in 1621. PEACE.
the Indians did not thank 'God'--they thanked the Creator. There is very little records of this event. Give thanks to the indians--the pilgrims would have died!!
@windstorm1000 - Hello. This video FULLY ACKNOWLEDGES the life saving assistance of the Native Indians. The Mayflower Pilgrims THANKED THE WAMPANOAG INDIANS by inviting them to share their 1621 harvest feast; 3 days of games & sport as well as dining on a variety of fare including seafood (they had LOBSTER!). The Pilgrims THANKED CHIEF MASSASOIT IN 1623 BY SAVING HIS LIFE WITH THEIR ADVANCED MEDICAL SKILLS. Their truce lasted 50 Years. Is that not something to celebrate? Peace.
Ok--but you didn't do the follow up story---'thank god" why not thank the Indians?????? Another white washed account. Ignore Indian sharing and murder/theft against Indian tribes.
@jrock6467 - Hello. History tells us the rest; IN 1671 some of the children of the Mayflower Pilgrim & Wampanoag elders, along w/ some newly arriving Puritans, broke the 1621 PEACE PACT signed by Chief Massasoit & Governor William Bradford. Also, 17 years after the shared Harvest Feast, other colonists attacked the Pequot Indians, then, SHAMEFULLY, "celebrated" their demise. However, in 1623 the Pilgrims SAVED CHIEF MASSASOIT'S LIFE w/more advanced medical skills. Please. PEACE.
If you want the truth about Thanksgiving...google it, or visit my blog at Phoenix Aquua, Arise from the Illusion...google it...there are about 3 articles I've posted regarding the fundamental truth about thanksgiving. It is now considered a National Day of Mourning. People are waking up and teaching their children the truth themselves....and this video is NOT the truth...if not, then you continue to live in a matrix of lies...i bet you celebrate xmas too?
@PhoenixAquua2012 - Hi. While likely futile, being an eternal pacifist/optimist, I believe we must keep trying to seek UNDERSTANDING & HARMONY. All the atrocities committed against the Native Indian population occurred LATER. The 1621 Harvest Feast w/ the Wampanoag & Mayflower Pilgrims was A BRIEF SHINING MOMENT OF PEACE. Some, some of the children of the Indian & Pilgrim Elders which signed a PEACE PACT broke it w/ new arrivals. I join everyone who mourns HUMAN'S cruelty to others. Peace.
@PhoenixAquua2012 - Hello. I Agree & the TRUTH IS THAT FOR 50 YEARS, two ethnically different groups of people worked & lived together in HARMONY. The Pilgrims shared their metal tools, weapons & factory produced goods w/the Indians who shared their life-saving farming/survival knowledge w/the Pilgrims. All the Horror was committed LATER by completely DIFFERENT colonist groups who FAILED TO FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THEIR ELDERS who had THANKED THE WAMPANOAG INDIANS properly. PEACE.
@mjcamck why do you emphasize the moment of peace. It's not a shining light to obliterate what was actually done consistently and without remorse by something that lasted one MOMENT! Thanksgiving should be a day of giving back and mourning for all Americans. And again, you show no sympathy, empathy, or compassion for what the Pilgrims did. History is not meant only to bear facts and truth. It's also to bear witness and memorize what happened so it will never happen again to any people.
@etemuru - Hello. Sorry, NOT guilty of "no sympathy." I invite you to read my other posts. I state, repeatedly, that the LATER treatment by OTHER colonists against the Natives was shameful & I always mourn all atrocities committed by any group of humans against any others. The term "moment" is symbolic. THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIM/WAMPANOAG PEACE PACT LASTED 50 years - 50 YEARS! If those that followed their footsteps had also followed their example, the ugliness wouldn't have happened. Peace.
@etemuru - Hello.1 more point. Your accusation of "no compassion" is UNjustified. FYI, I have a 40 YEAR VOLUNTEER SERVICE RECORD w/social justice,civil rights & anti-hunger organizations. I work for Peace & am not interested in insulting you back. I mourn any violence by any human against another. The Pilgrims were INVITED to stay by both Squanto & Chief Massasoit who, successfully, used their presence (& guns) to prevent attacks by neighboring tribes (Narransett, Pequot, Mohegan). Peace.
@etemuru - Hello.I did more research. What "the Pilgrims did" was accept an INVITATION by Wampanoag Tribe Chief (Massasoit) Ousamequin to live on land cleared by others. Also, what "the Pilgrims did" was HONOR a pact w/the Wampanoag which PREVENTED other tribes which had threatened them (Mohegan,Narrangasetts) from attacking. What the 1st Gen. Mayflower Pilgrims "did" was live & work in PEACE w/Indians for 50 Years; no apologies called for (until LATER for acts by OTHERS.) Peace.
Thanksgiving day is nothing more than a harsh reminder of the genocide of millions of Native people, the theft of Native lands, and the relentless assault on Native culture. "I say to the American Indians, I mourn with you this week, and I understand your struggle, because I understand your plight." This is no thanksgiving for me because the truth is so painful.
@PhoenixAquua2012 the fact that I'm Cherokee & Scots-Irish(just as many N/A are mixed) shows somebody had to be getting along. I'm not saying terrible things didn't happen, what I'm saying is it's equally VITAL we remember all the good things(including Thanksgiving)too.
Youtube is blocking the truth. - just tried to post two links of the truth behind thanksgiving day and they blocked them. Shame shame shame but this idiot can post about how his ppl had guns and was killing the native Indians and that get posted. Sad
@SeeMeBoss the truth always prevails my brother....if ppl out there are wondering what the truth is...you can find a few articles on my blog at Phoenix Aquua...google it....it is ridiculous and ignorant when someone says: Happy Thanksgiving....it shows their stupidity on the subject, which is shameful!
@SeeMeBoss - Hello. Unfortunately, human history is filled with "slaughters." (We had one on 9/11/2011) Native Indian tribes even killed each other long before any colonists arrived. The violence you speak of was LATER & by OTHERS, NOT THE PEACEFUL MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS, although SOME of their children did not follow the non-violent cooperation example set by their elders. It's not too late to learn how to work together to create a free & prosperous society. Best Wishes & PEACE.
@mjcamck If they were so peaceful, then why didn't they move off the lands and sacrifice their new found religious freedom and go back to their native country rather than spread imperialism by taking over lands that were already occupied? You are so full of it.
@etemuru - Hello. The Mayflower Pilgrims were INVITED TO STAY ON THE LAND BY SQUANTO whose tribe (Paxatucet) had all died, mainly from disease brought, UN-intentionally by previous English fisherman. The Wampanoag Chief Massasoit (whose life the Pilgrims saved in 1623) ALSO INVITED THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS TO STAY so they could ally with him in defense against other Indian tribes who threatened them. I respect your right to disagree with me, however, insults are uncalled for. Please. PEACE.
@mjcamck I don't believe you. Revisionist history has always been guilty. Show me and prove it. Now if everything was so peaceful, where did all the Indians go? Did the Pilgrims write letters home telling of this so-called peaceful time? Any relics or authentic memories from that peaceful time? My truth tells me all I need to know because I don't see any Indians around where the Pilgrims landed. Whatever you produce as proof would need to be authenticated by an archaeologist that I deemed fit.
@etemuru - Hello. Again, it was LATER that OTHER colonists failed to honor the 1621 Peace Pact by Wampanoag Chief Massasoit & Governor William Bradford & instead chose the violence which decimated the Native population. Sadly, the Indian tribes were too busy killing each other to stand united against the colonists. Speaking of authenticity, WHERE IS YOUR PROOF that their 50 Year Peace Pact never happened as recorded in writing & by Indian oral history? Seriously. Peace.
@etemuru - Hello. One last point, I just wanted to respond to the first sentence of your reply. "I don't believe you" is another way of calling a person a liar, which is unjustified, incorrect & unproductive to an intelligent conversation. Chief Massasoit wanted both the guns & manpower the Mayflower Pilgrims could give in the defense of his Wampanoag against the Narransett, Pequot & Mohegan tribes who threatened them. That's why he INVITED the Pilgrims to stay. I am not a liar. Peace.
@SeeMeBoss - Please; the first generation MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS DID NOT SLAUGHTER ANYONE. Although, later, SOME of their children/grandchildren did not HONOR THE PEACE TREATY BETWEEN CHIEF MASSASOIT & GOVERNOR WILLIAM BRADFORD. Thanksgiving celebrates the brief but shining period in history when two ethnically different groups of people worked & lived together in HARMONY. Does the fact that the truce didn't last mean we shouldn't celebrate it's existence? Please. Peace.
@91lilfrozone23 - Hello. I'm truly very sorry for the pain of your Native American ancestors. There's no excuse for the actions of some of the colonists - none. However, the reason there's no mass murder in the video is because this particular event was an oasis of Peace & Harmony between the Mayflower Pilgrims & The Wampanoag Indian Tribe in Fall, 1621. The ugliness you may be referring to (Pequot War) was 17 years later by a completely DIFFERENT group of colonists. Best Wishes to You.
@anthikar - Hello person in Greece! I'm a Mayflower Descendant & our first child was born on Thanksgiving morning so it's extra special to us. The video is accurate except for the fact that the Native Indians brought some food themselves, including 5 deer. While 50 years later, Native Indian/Colonist relations went sour w/ the arrival of some violent Puritans, the Fall 1621 Harvest Feast w/ Mayflower Pilgrims & Wampanoag Indians was BRIGHT MOMENT OF PEACE in world history. Best Wishes.
@mjcamck you living in a delusional world....not true at all....fundamentally! Take the time and educate yourself, and your children and stop perpetuating and promoting this lie..This is a National Day of Mourning, nothing to celebrate....the birth of a child is something different and doesn't add itself to the thanksgiving...please read my ARTICLES on Phoenix Aquua, Arise from the Illusion....you can google me...I have about 3 articles on the truth of killing of the Wampanoag Indians & 1st tg
@PhoenixAquua2012 - Hello. Once again, I'm fully aware that LATER, the Native Indian population was decimated by colonists. HUMAN HISTORY IS FILLED WITH SHAMEFUL BEHAVIOR BY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE TOWARD ANOTHER. I join you in MOURNING (I'm the victim of violence myself) that FACT. The point is, for 50 years in the 1600's, 2 ethnically different groups of people worked & lived together in PEACE & COOPERATION. It's TRAGIC that their example was NOT followed. IT'S NOT TOO LATE. Please. Peace.
There are two major reasons this is not possible today:
1) The Godless Democrat Party and,
2) The ACLU and its constant quest to remove everything religious from society.
The reason the pilgrims were so peaceful was because they were a God fearing people and they worshiped and tried to live by Gods word as in the Bible. We cannot presume to live in peace today without the help and stewardship of God Almighty. Man does not have that capacity alone. He cannot control his greed, envy, or hate.
@MegaRick57 - Hello. I agree. The more "modern" civilization denies & distances itself from God, our Creator, the more misery occurs despite massive advances in material goods production & electronics inventions. Now that Thanksgiving is behind us, it's officially The Christmas Season, so MERRY CHRISTMAS, GOD BLESS & PEACE ON EARTH TO YOU!
@anthikar your definintely kidding right? You are aware that America and it's people sit behind a veil of illusion...right? You do have books in Greece don't you? Why don't you do a google search on the REAL truth about Thanksgiving...it's a National Day of Mourning for the genocide created by the Europeans .... omgosh ...it's got to be a joke what you just wrote...how insulting....read about the truth on my blog Phoenix Aquua....google me....and then come back and comment here...
gonna makwe me cry excuse me gotta go to bathroom
Angenik101 5 hours ago
October 3, 1863.President Lincoln's Proclamation sets 1 day in Nov. as an official NATIONAL DAY OF THANKSGIVING (unifying many regional celebrations). It expresses Thanks (to God) for the Glories of Nature & the PRODUCTIVITY (plough,axe,mines) that continued outside the "lamentable"..."theatre of military conflict." It was Thanks for all the GOOD, N-O-T VIOLENCE. He asks citizens to "implore" the "Almighty" to "restore . . . peace, harmony, tranquility & Union." Anything wrong with that? PEACE.
mjcamck 1 day ago
@mjcamck Those r ALL good reasons--I grant u--Lincoln was cool--saved the nation--though he had hung 40 Dakota in 1862.Outside your ideal, however, people in this messy world still r using native stereotypes to celebrate Th.--ie 10,000 well meaning schools have pageants of kids wearing paper headresses (ersatz Plains!!--not Narragansett). These stereo.'s r harmful to native children. Do u have any nat. friends? Check out that Narrangan. guy's post--you'll get an earful on Thanksg.
windstorm1000 1 day ago
True: the Mayflower Pilgrims didn't call their 1621 harvest feast "Thanksgiving." In the 1600's, official "Thanksgivings" consisted of prayer, not meals. Later, several groups declared formal "Thanksgiving" celebrations after violent massacres. However it is ONLY the NAME - JUST the NAME that was incorporated into modern Thanksgivings which commemorate 50 YEARS of Pilgrim/Indian PEACE - NOT, NOT, NOT MASSACRES. Please. Why are some determined to turn every human positive into a negative? PEACE.
mjcamck 1 day ago
@mjcamck Well, lets ditch the name--call it Peace Day---and then there might be a lot less controversy. you contradicted yourself in sentence 3 and 4. I'm not trying to turn it negative--but as you see this day has caused MUCH pain for Native American people and their supporters--and continues to do. Wouldn't it be great to go past YT and have a cross cultural conference on this. You might hear some other points of you--not just mine, of course. Peace.
windstorm1000 1 day ago
Mayflower Pilgrims did NOT participate in the 5/26/1631 Pequot Massacre when OTHER English leaders declared an "official" Thanksgiving. Confusion stems from the fact that Gov. Bradford describes the horrendous scene (relayed to him by witnesses) in his book "Of Plimouth Plantation." A close read clarifies what 'THEY" did by 'THEIR" actions which pleased "THEM" not "we" "ours" or "us." The "they" was both Indian (Narrangansett, Mohegan) & Mass.Bay Puritans NOT Plymouth Pilgrims. Truth & PEACE.
mjcamck 1 week ago
@mjcamck Today's holiday, again, is NOT based on that historic meal (u should know better)--but rather repeated 'thanksgivings' by the Puritans after massacres of natives, such as the Pequot. Washington combined all these heinous 'holidays' into 1 day--later Lincoln codified them into a nat. holiday. So T 'ing is 3/4 massacre, 1/4 Charlie Brown's Pilgrims. What a farce!! I DO like that that people get together 4 dinner 4 thanks--THAT'S a good thing. But the rest? No thank u--wicked.
windstorm1000 2 days ago
Thanksgiving does NOT celebrate a massacre. It commemorates "a special time of friendship between 2 very different groups of people" (Wampanoag Tribe Website). The Mayflower Pilgrims WERE INVITED to stay on the land by Chief Massasoit who wanted them (& their weapons) for his tribe's defense against the threatening Mohegan & Narragansett tribes. While not specifically called such, it was a Feast of Thanksgiving which included a prayer of thanks as ALL meals did. Continued on next post . . .
mjcamck 1 week ago
@mjcamck Well, yes, it does--indirectly (days of grace after massacres)--with your intelligence you should know better. I do hope you read at least as many books about NE tribes as you do about the Pilgrims--sit down with them and get their point of view. I have enjoyed your posts and am glad that there was atleast a .5% of invaders who got along and respected the natives. Try to go to Schemutzen--its one of the biggest pow wows in the U.S.--really awesome--at the Foxwoods Casino.
windstorm1000 2 days ago
@mjcamck Just TRY to get out of your fairy tale/misconceptions regarding the black origins of this 'holiday'!! 'The truth will set you free'. I don't deny the Pilgrims were good people (though some were certainly opportunists--lets not put them on a wedding cake). Let us DISASSOCIATE the Pilgrims kindness from the wicked ORIGINS of 'Thanksgiving'--then we will be able to appreciate BOTH much better--and not smirch the memory of massacred NE tribes! Thank you.
windstorm1000 2 days ago
@mjcamck Excuse me, Lincoln may have also based part of the codified holiday on the Pilgrims meal--but its whirled in a blender with the other massacres (I will do more research). Very complex and stormy for such a day of thanks (the latter being a good thing).
windstorm1000 2 days ago
So, lemme get this straight. The european comes here, kills off most of the natives, steals their land/home, and now it's situation that is celebrated every year. Then they go and steal an entire people, make them slaves. "Greatest country on the planet." MY ASS!!! This is "The Land of the THIEF. Home of the SLAVE.
TRUGOD7 2 weeks ago
@TRUGOD7 - Hello.Thanksgiving does NOT celebrate murder, theft & slaving. It commemorates THE OPPOSITE: a brief moment in HUMAN (not just European) history when 2 groups of people lived & worked together in PEACE FOR 50 YEARS. Please see ABOVE POSTS for more details. It was The Wamapanoag Tribe who shared the 1621 harvest feast (the type of which had been held globally since societies began) & their website (pokanoket.us) describes the event POSITIVELY as noted ABOVE. Please. PEACE.
mjcamck 1 week ago
One and all please go to the post: "What are you really celebrating? Thanksgiving" It gives a different and more Native American view point on this 'holiday'.
windstorm1000 2 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
2.The references to heaven, hell, the Triune nanture of God & three white thrones come from James Adair-a trader(note; traders weren't known for being churched)who lived among the Cherokee prior to their acceptance of Christianity-
3.The Cherokee were very intrigued & impressed with the Bible & Christianity when exposed to it by the Moravians & George Wesley, but uninterested in converting due to the behavior of the settlers as opposed to that of the missionaries.
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 I wouldn't trust a traders writings--I would bet you a classy dinner all of that is completely false. Don't u have a oral tradition? Elders? Books of Cherokee spirituality? You might do a little reading. I must correct you: in my research of Indian nations there are NO concepts of 'hell' or 'heaven'--those r distinctively Judaic/Christ./Muslim concepts-which have gotten the world's cultures into no end of trouble . There ARE 'good/bad' native afterworld places.
windstorm1000 2 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
1.The trader's account is based on oral tradition-Note; Precontact & pre-missionary influenced- among various other sources; Given peace between the Cherokee & the traders lasted c100 yrs & the unchurched condition of most traders, JudeoChristian influence is highly unlikely..
2.Did I specifically say heaven or hell? All I said was the concept of a place with Yah in the sky for the righteous & a place of fire for the wicked is present in the precontact beliefs.
EmetTalmudim6 2 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 did you know that fire is sacred for many native people? my navajo friend reminded me that it is holy, keeps us warm, cooks food, inspires, of course, you have to be careful with it. to send people to a place filled with holy fire and call it 'hell' made no sense to many native people.
windstorm1000 2 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 "You have to be careful with it", Exactly;Did you know God is called a consuming fire in the Bible? The issue is to those who are out of God's will this will be a dreadful thing because Light-by it's very nature expels darkness-, to those who are in God's will it is nothing to dread because via Christ we are drawn to its benafits. In otherwords what makes hell hell & heaven heaven is where we stand in relation to their Creator.
EmetTalmudim6 2 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 Native people taught us that the greatest heaven is an abundant earth--this is heaven on earth, where we are now--and probably will be later on. To pine for another world strumming on a cloud passes the buck for living in balance in this one. Try to see things outside of your own vision, you might just learn something.
windstorm1000 2 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
1.By who's standard; people's or God's? When they put together powwow regalia Natives leave a rip or some other error or shortcoming to remind them that only God is perfect.
2.Every cosmology-one way or another-acknowledges the world is less than it was created to be because of a broken taboo at the beginning; In other words the whole Lion King notion of sickness, death & life's other problems as part of the"Circle of Life" & natural doesn't exist traditionally.
EmetTalmudim6 2 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 People ARE God--the kingdom of God lies within you--when humans will stop projecting their beliefs outward, then there will be peace on this earth free from religious dogma. I trust far more in native beliefs than I ever would in Christianity with its incredibly checkered human rights history. I love Jesus and his message of compassion and tolerance--I just don't like his 'followers'--the distortions started with vengeful Paul and haven't quit.
windstorm1000 2 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 "I love Jesus & His message of compassion & tolerance";
1.Did you knowJesus taught much more about hell then He did heaven?
2.Love without justice isn't love; Were I to only speak of God's love, mercy, grace, & forgiveness you would rightly ask, "Where is justice?"
"Christianity's checkered history";
Just curious, do you-in principle at least-believe all people are inherantly equal with the inalienable right to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness?
EmetTalmudim6 1 week ago
@EmetTalmudim6 In our long discourse, I can tell u r a hard liner not willing to give up an 'inch' of your point of view (where I have been open). That, most certainly, is not the Indian point of view--it appears u have given up the ways of your ancestors--people would trade a fortune to have spiritual traditions such as yours that u have turned your back on! Too bad!! Christ was not the master of telling of hell--he was the master of faith, hope and charity. Christian twist!
windstorm1000 1 week ago
@EmetTalmudim6 Yes, I of course believe in life, liberty, and pursuite of happiness--curious question coming from a right wing Christian--people not known for their comprimise or openness (like Muslims).
windstorm1000 1 week ago
@windstorm1000 "Yes, I of course believe in life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness";
Question; Does the fact that people haven't always lived up to that principle-including those who set its foundations at times-& that some, while giving it lip service, have in practice opposed it make that principle any less true?
EmetTalmudim6 1 week ago
@EmetTalmudim6 U have me there. Human beings, for the most part, have not lived up to their promise as evolved spiritual entities. But the spiritualty of some cultures seem so much less destructive than others--Christianity has far & away caused more harm to indiginous cultures & the health of the Earth than all others put together. Look at where things r now--the planet is dying because of greed & selfishness--part caused by Christian attitude--'a better world awaits this 1'.
windstorm1000 2 days ago
@windstorm1000 "The Spirituality of some cultures seem so much less destructive than others ect";
A.According to Natives there's a better world than this one & a worse one as well.
B.Virtually every cosmology recognizes that evil, sickness & death are not natural & that this world is not what it was originally.
C.Then again Christianity isn't human in origin but Divine-Again back to the assertion of the US Declaration; What one does with that doesn't invalidate its assertion-
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
@EmetTalmudim6 U didn't catch my meaning correctly--indigenous cult.s lived more in harmony w the rhythyms of Earth. The Industrial Rev. till now has caused widespread destruction. There may be little time 4 humans left on this earth. Christinity spread the false doctrine of 'subdue the earth'--what a terrible legacy 4 our children & children's child. Look around u. This will be my last post to u--I've learned some--thanks-maybe its been reciprocal..
windstorm1000 1 day ago
@windstorm1000 I'm Just giving honest answers;
1.More precisely, Subdue & REPLENISH the earth;
A.Humanity's context being that we were ASSIGNED the earth as STEWARDS according to the literal Hebrew
B.The earth's context being that when satan via pride fell earth & the universe were contaminated outside of Eden, thus we were created to be God's abassadors.
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
@EmetTalmudim6 Yes (I knew you'd find the words). But humanity has mostly not lived up to those wise principals. Look at this damaged, ailing earth. The native people HAVE--until very recently--and many still do--that's why I admire their cultures and spirituality. I felt Spirit touch me and give me life answers when I went on my vision quest many years ago in a beautiful forest--I never felt that rapture in a square box church nor reading the Bible.
windstorm1000 1 day ago
@windstorm1000
1.That doesn't make the principles any less true
2.Native "environmentalism"; Sure if you don't count how ancient Natives contributed massively to global warming via hunting fires & mass prehistoric extinction via overhunting.
3.Feelings or the lack there of;
"Your feelings can deceive you, don't trust them." Obiwon Kinobi.
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
EmetTalmudim6 23 hours ago
@EmetTalmudim6 tell that to 50 million Muslims, a billion Buddhists, etc, etc. We are responsible for our own sins/karma--no one else can take that on. There is NO such thing as original sin. don't believe everything you read in the Bible--half of it is archaic tribal shibboliths--and Paul had a huge axe to grind--which wasn't Christ's that's for sure. And the gospels were written 30-40 years after the 'event'--one has to wonder how accurate. So many inconsistancies
windstorm1000 19 hours ago
@windstorm1000
1.Because as Tevye-AH IF I WERE A RICH MAN! LOL-observed "He is right & he is right? They cannot both be right." Because logic dictates; Either "the sky" is "blue" or it is "white with red pokadots & greens stripes"
2.The cross nomore takes away from someonne's personal responsability than the fact that the smart thing for a proven criminal to do is throw themselves on the mercy of the court does.
EmetTalmudim6 3 hours ago
@windstorm1000
2.The only thing the Church-& by that I mean people, not what God created it to be & do-screwed up on its specific function; What I mean is the Jews, among other things, were called to administer earthly punishments to those who knew better & refused to be made better to illustrate God's eternal principles of justice, righteousness, & holiness.
Conversely the Church was called to proclaim God's eternal principles of Love, undeserved favor, mercy, & forgiveness.
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
@EmetTalmudim6 those are all good things--and those things are inside of us as part of a Higher Power. there may be differences between a higher power and fallible man--and then again there may not be. It all depends whether one thinks the Bible is divinely written (some/some not)--there's the Koran, Buddism too. Popes were paid off for indulgences to get to heaven faster. The Catholic church is very rich--but getting poorer for those priests who are pedophiles.
windstorm1000 1 day ago
@windstorm1000 During the sundance;
A sacrifice is offered to Creator
The dancer prays while connected to the Tree of Life-a direct connection to Creator-
Flesh piercing is given as a part of the prayer for the benafit of one's family & community
The dancers' suffering results in the making over again of the whole world.
EmetTalmudim6 23 hours ago
@EmetTalmudim6 Right, you got it--so why are you refuting the culture/rites these pious people who are not yours in the later post? That's arrogant, man. There not doing it to stop sin--but to keep life going--has NOTHING to do with Christian teachings which are sin/fear based. You really need to hang out with different types of people.
windstorm1000 19 hours ago
@windstorm1000 Note; My most recent post to you-prior to this one-regards heaven on earth.
Regarding respecting the earth See;
Genesis
2;15
&
6; 19-21
But any such respect is to be DUE; Even by Native standards the creation is not the Creator. Beyond that, by God's standard, humanity alone is designed in His image & likeness-So, since we represent God to the rest of creation as He is God over us & them, we should conduct ourselves so but not at the expense of His priority, us-
EmetTalmudim6 2 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 Whole reams of the Bible are pure fable--ie the world created in 7 days, Adam and Eve, etc and etc. Its really full of whoppers. If one believes in even a modicum of science the whole thing falls apart like a pack of cards. i will check out Genesis--but doubt it will change my mind on the matter. Truly, the most intelligent belief is humanism--ie Einstein, Sagan--less dogmatic & still seeing the world as a rational designed place--but NOT by one omtipotent being.
windstorm1000 2 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
1.Again; most cosmologies(Native or otherwise) would agree creation was a matter of days. Note; the Cherokee cosmology adheres to 7 days.
2.Adam & Eve. Since;
A.we agree in equality etc.
B.Every nonBiblical cosmology(with a few rare exceptions) adheres to inherant inequality of people as evidenced by various deities
C.The Bible virtually alone acknowledges the inherant equality of all people as evidenced by ONE Deity
What is the logical ethical conclution?
EmetTalmudim6 3 days ago
@EmetTalmudim6 Bumper sticker: "I like Jesus, but I don't like his followers" Anthropology says that the world being created in 7 days is a complete Biblical pipe dream. Fossil evidence clearly points in evolutionary system of the earth (that's old news)--why debate science? Do you believe everything you read? You seem like an intelligent guy. "When religion ruled the world it was called the Dark Ages "---another bumper sticker
windstorm1000 2 days ago
@windstorm1000 I have no issues with science or logic-God's the Author of them afterall-but with the assumptions of "scientists." pt 1
1.Creation a matter of days vs "science";
A.Then Native & every other cosmology is wrong too.
B..Transitional Forms; First, that contradicts Native cosmology a lot more than the Bible. Second, If you're talking about primative canine=modern canines, no problem. If you're talking about primative reptile=primative mammal, big problem.
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
@EmetTalmudim6 "God" is an incredibly limiting term--you know for many a white guy on a cloud with a long beard. The conception of a universal energy--which we are a part of--goes far beyond the limited powers of human imagination--or faith. I suggest you view Cosmos with Carl Sagan of the infentesmal wonder of the universe--which is evolving, chaotic, imperfect--but more generous on Earth. This is called Humanism--the most lodgical 'faith'/science--that goes past dogma
windstorm1000 1 day ago
@windstorm1000
1.Who said God's white?
A.See;
Genesis 1;27
Acts 17;26
B.Jesus came as Middle Eastern Jew of Afro-Asiatic ancestry; you do the math as far as dominent ethnic traits.
2.Humanism, evolution & Gnosticism; Since Native cosmology acknowledges a personal Creator above man & that man was created as man one has no business in a Sweat Lodge IF humanism & evolution are true. IF Gnosticism is true then the Native notion of Creator can't be true(see 2)
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
@EmetTalmudim6 I knew I was going into a sticky wicket with humanism and my personal beliefs of Nat. people--but I find nat. belief more in line with universal sacred energy of ALL living creatures--stones, stars, trees--the sap of the universe. I don't get that with Christianity--I know you'll come up with some scriptural verse to refute--I was NEVER taught scripture of taking care of the earth in 20 years of mass going/confirmation, etc. Have some humor--I assume you have some.
windstorm1000 1 day ago
@windstorm1000
In other words what you had in the case of European colonization was GRADUALLY people who claimed to be Christians-again as my grandma used to say if they were theyd've "lived it"-usurping the Jews' specific Old Testament function; It'd be like a nurse or fireman trying to be a police officer or security guard.
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
@windstorm1000
3.Who knows more about the US Civil War or the Great Depression; Those who were there or those who weren't there, writing about it long after the facts?
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
@windstorm1000 I have no issues with science & logic etc. pt2
2.Do I believe everything I read;
A.When the Author's perfect I do.
B.A basic tenant of science's "The simplest explanation's usually the correct one"; It's a takes much more faith to believe primative fish gradually=primative primate etc.(random series of cosmic accidents or not), which again contradicts most cosmology .
3.The Dark Ages; Oh you mean the postRoman Reneisance fostered by Christianity that saved the West.
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
@EmetTalmudim6 Yes, men came from fish--I'm proud of that--its all in fossil record---no 'problem' w me. I'm reading an interesting book of Enoch & hidden gospels that Jesus married Mary Mag., moved to France, had kids--he then taught that we all have God within us, but the church, obviously, wanted to consolidate its power--ie 1 could only find the divine through the church--& sin/ damnation were for anybody who didn't tow the line. Lots of people just don't swallow that bunk.
windstorm1000 1 day ago
@windstorm1000
3.Doesn't it stand to reason that God, aside from contradicting His nature, can do whatever He wants (Since He, by definition, is perfect);
Always has does & will exist,
always has is & will be All knowing, All powerful, & Present Everywhere at once,
& is as equally loving, merciful, gracious, forgiving, just, holy, & Righteous?
4."The most intelligent belief is humanism"; Then Native cosmology is wrong too since it acknowledges One above & greater than man.
EmetTalmudim6 3 days ago
@EmetTalmudim6 I'm not going to get into theological debates w you anymore as you r very set in your beliefs--my Navajo friend say that some Christians are intolerent--its their way or the highway. I'm glad you have strong spirit center but it might do u well to get out of your 'box'. Where do u live? If there's a pow wow close by--go to it, listen to the Drum, feel the heart beat of Mother Earth (God is not just a 'He'), watch the dancers go round & round--then get back to me.
windstorm1000 2 days ago
@windstorm1000
3.I was refering to your assertion regarding Biblical events; The point's since God is all that He is it stands to reason-short of contradicting His nature-orchestrating said events are no biggy.
As for your friends experiences with "Christians" that depends on whether they truly were that(IE did they really know Jesus). If they did, like my grandma always said, "they'd live it."
Again, no Native cosmology regards earth as THE Creator but as a created procreator.
EmetTalmudim6 1 day ago
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windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
1.Moses; he was a nomadic shepherd who'd spent age 40-80 getting to know the region nonstop prior to that. Since God's perfect one's not likely to take a wrong turn at Abu Dabi.
2. 7 days; Most Native cosmologies describe it having taken place in a matter of days(Cherokees are in agreement as to the number being 7). What's time to He Who is timeless?
3.Since'll take a bit I'll get back to you about the archeology.
4.Inconsistancy is the issue, not that it's oral.
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 I pray unceasingly God will answer your prayer; I guarantee, it may not be the answer you WANT, but He will answer.
Final thoughts;
1.Just Curious, what Nation are you?
2.God will resolve ALL injustices. The question's will you be on His side when He does?
3You inferred I wasn't a real Indian;
A.Tell that to Reverend Jesse Bushyhead
B.Jesus isn't just for White people-especially since He came as a Middle Eastern Semite with Hamitic ancestry-He's for everyone.
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 I'm of the human natio. Kidding aside, I do not have Indian blood in me, but feel spiritually attuned to tribal teachings I've been following for years--the Ojibwe & Lakota specifically. U, an Indian, go to your Sunday preacher & I, a white man go to my sweat lodge--ironic--heh? So u see the Pipe is not just meant for Red People (3B., right?!). Why aren't u following the ways of your ancestors? The sweat feels SO much more spiritual to me than church--I love it.
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 Precisely why I'm a Christian, Prior to contact, my people believed;
in one Creator & only He was God & King
His sacred name, Yowa/Yah, only our priests were allowed to say
Yowa was Triune, ruling from 3 white thrones in heaven
At death the Righteous went to heaven & the Wicked to a fiery place
In the last days the world would end in fire
The Evil One was a lesser spirit known as Skina.
Our creation & Flood stories were all but identical to the Biblical narrative.
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 There is lot in common betw. Nat. Peoples & Old Testa. regarding flood story 'myths'--bu there's also much that's different. I don't know Cherokee trad.'s, but the bit I've researched says the Creator was a "She"--why should she be a "He"? Women are more in tune. There is no '3 white thrones' in heaven-no 'heaven', per se, & definitely no 'hell' in Ch. or other native trad.'s. Those r all Christian. concepts that, most unfortunately, some natives had to accept.'
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
1.If you're referencing Wikipedia, incorrect; Yowa was He, references to she was regarding the sun-again the context is delegated not inherant authority. In otherwords there was A school of thought similar to Catholic theology regarding the st's. in which the lesser creation were seen as conduets to Yah-Than again that comes from the Anikutani(an extinct priesthood who demanded women, & human sacrifice)& so were overthrown prior to European contact.
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 "Why aren't you following the ways of your ancestors?";
1.As demonstrated above, because the Bible is reflected in a culture that did not have the Bible(in this case my own, but the same is true to some degree or other in all cultures). Thus the Scripture is confirmed; See Acts17;22-28 Romans1;19, 20
2.Because all religions say,
"DO, DO, DO [etc]! & IF your good deeds outway your bad deeds you MIGHT merit heaven."
Whereas YHWH(Jesus)proclaims, "DONE!"
EmetTalmudim6 2 weeks ago
EmetTalmudim6 2 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 thank you. I don't have cable anymore, but will try to get them at the libarary.
windstorm1000 2 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 you can find most of the documentaries I listed at Netflix or on the respective academic channels' sites.
EmetTalmudim6 2 weeks ago
Don't anyone put flowers on the grave of Mass. military general John Mason--he was responsible for massacreing part of the Pequot nation in 1637. A Puritan devil if there ever was one.
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 While defending the Wampanoags as promised by treaty; How is backing up one's promises to allies wrong?
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 That treaty backfired on 50,000 people eventually--and the Wampanoag lost their land. The W. did not know who they were dealing with in the long run--though they found out. Its fine to celebrate that atleast a few Europeans respected native culture. By why celebrate it to the exclusion of what happened afterwards?-that is selective history through the microscope. There WERE battles between tribes--but they didn't bring pop. levels to 10 % as did Euro. 'treaties'
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
1.EVENTUALLY being the operative word. The point is for c50 yrs-A generation by our standards & given life expectancy 2 generations by theirs-there was peace, & the promise given was fulfilled.
2.Because celebrating the good times is the point & purpose of the holiday; A holiday is not the time to focus on & deal with all that's gone wrong-Which given where we're at now is a little pointless anyway-Holidays are stressful enough as is.
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 - The Wampanoag website describes the 1621 Pilgrim/Wampanoag Harvest Feast: "IT WAS A SPECIAL TIME OF FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN TWO VERY DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE" (pokanoket.us). Due to large land tracts returned to tribes in the 70's, many are experiencing expansion. TO HELP: Contact your Congressional Reps. re Native bills.Current Action House Action Needed on SRes329 designating November as Native Indian Heritage Month. Please. Let's work TOGETHER in PEACE.
mjcamck 3 weeks ago
Also, history is not a vacuum of unrelated events--the intentions of one group can be quickly undermined by related people. I seriously doubt that the Pilgrims were to a man had the best intentions of the natives in mind. They probably saw it in "God's Providence" that the land was empty since 1614 small pox. Where are all the native people in New England now? Where are they? Answer me that--and take off your rose colored spectacles! There are victims in history--do not deny that! Enough.
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello.Civility, please? ANSWER:in the 1970's LARGE land tracts were returned to Native Indian Tribes complete w/sovereignty for each. Billions in direct financial reparations built(d) roads, schools & businesses. In 2012, The Pequot Tribe owns Foxwoods Resort & Casino in Mashantucket, CT.,The Narrangansett Tribe is centralized near Charleston, RI, & the Wampanoag, Millbury, Mass. Numbers are increasing. Even Native Languages are returning. Did you know? Peace.
mjcamck 4 weeks ago
@mjcamck Only three hundred years too late--like Hitler saying to concentration camp survivors in 1944, "Oh, you can have your synagogues back now". cultural genocide can really f---- up a culture, know what I mean? I did not know about the land reparations--thank you for sharing. Still, I am glad they have gotten a bit of their own back and that they can get their cultures back to semblance. It will never be what it once was, of course.
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 But then the Pilgrims & Puritans-being HyperCalvinists-would've seen it as God's will if they themselves had been struck with smallpox; thus, they were not singling the Indians out. Nor were they that different from them in tha regard; To both Natives & HyperCalvinists everything was a message from God.
We go on & on about how different they were, but the settlers & Indians had much in common. If you're too much alike you tend to get on each others' nerves.
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 There were MANY differences between how the natives worshiped and how the calvinists...I don't have the time OR space to go into the 50 different ways here--but will say that seeing the land as sacred was a huge wedge between natives and Puritans AND multi national corp.'s/consumers to this very day. Think of it. I urge you to read Lame Deer--it'lll explain. As far as your last statement--its very naive. One wishes for similarity. Look at the West Bank.
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
1.I wasn't referring to religious beliefs. The point's we tend to focus on all the Indians & the settlers didn't have in common, when in fact what they had in common had equally as much influence on what went wrong. Case in point; today we tend to think of the Lakota as victims when in fact they had a mafioso grip on trade on the Missouri, & were as guilty of pulling a land grab on the indigenous tribes of the Black Hills as the U.S. government later did to them.
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
@EmetTalmudim6 Where the HELL did you get your knowledge of Native American history mister??? A cracker jack box? If what u said about the Lakota is an example of what you know that would be like if my knowledge of Jews were strictly strung from Wagner's luntatic writings. U need to get out of your ignorance box & go to your libarary & read "Lame Deer Seeker of Visions"--when you have finished I will deem you more worthy of conversation on this complex topic. Until then....
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000
1.First hand accounts(they were there we weren't)
2.Academic concensus(including Lakota academics who confirmed it).
EmetTalmudim6 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
& WHERE did these 'innocent, peaceful' people go after the harvest meal ended? Oz? Were they absorbed into the Puritans? U are the expert, u tell me. I stand somewhat corrected on the Pilgrims,but hold to my stance--& one held by advanced historians--that European settlement--however initially well intentioned--was in the long run a disaster for NE (& other) Indian nations. Why don't u speak to the Pequot/Narragansett/Wampanoag People (any left) NOW & get their take on this issue?
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello.YES, again, we KNOW & FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE that European gains were a TRAGIC LOSS for Native Tribes. Unfortunately, they were too busy fighting each other to stand united against the invasion. It's NOT & NEVER WAS "right." Explanation, NOT excuse:conquest by violence is GLOBAL & HUMAN History. Can we change the past?Seriously.OR, should we admit the UGLY spots & work TOGETHER to create prosperity & cultural protection for Native Indians today? Please. Peace.
mjcamck 4 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 - Where did the Pilgrims go? They were, slowly, absorbed into the larger Massachusetts Bay Puritan Colony (formally in 1691). Sadly, the intolerant Puritan Leaders FAILED to follow THE EXAMPLE OF THE PEACEFUL MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS & felt entitled to "conquer & convert" Natives, even by force. As for the view of the Mayflower Pilgrims, the WAMPANOAG Website describes the 1621 Harvest Feast as a "SPECIAL TIME OF FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN 2 DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE." Peace.
mjcamck 4 weeks ago
@mjcamck I thank u for your analysis, & i trust u thank me for mine. Its great that the Pilgrims were peaceful with the Indians---its most unfortunate that this did not last. Hence, the celebration of Thanksgving (that is only remotely connected to the above feast) is of a decidedly 'checkered' rememberance. The bad out weighs the good for me, therefore I choose not to celebrate it.
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello.I respect your right to refrain from observation of any holiday inc. Thanksgiving. I just hope you will respect the rights of those of us who believe that an occasion of two ethnically different groups of people sharing their skills & supplies w/ each other & living in PEACE FOR 50 YEARS is something worth celebrating while we also mourn the fact that the harmony didn't last. However, we can do MUCH MORE THAN MOURN. I hope you'll look at my next post...
mjcamck 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 - I decided to put the "action possible" information at the top of the page so, hopefully, more readers can see it. It encourages contacting Congressional Representatives about current bills of value to Native Indian Communities. I hope you'll look & consider turning some of your commendable passion & energy into positive, constructive ACTION. Thank you.
mjcamck 3 weeks ago
@mjcamck Yes, thank you for the heads up regarding the bill--I will write my rep. ITs not much, but its a start. half the foods we eat are from North/CentralSouth America. As far as my passion into action--I have worked on Native issues since 1984 (about 100 letters, marches, etc)--so I've been in the thick of a lot of things. keep up the good work, maybe we make can help enlighten American's knowledge on native issues---
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello. Now that it's passed the Senate, SRes329 has been sent to the House. The House Rules Committee says they have not formally docked it yet, but expect to after the current Cong. Recess concludes in a couple of weeks. You're right; at least it's a chance for Native American history & culture to be spotlighted as much as the Mayflower Pilgrims each November, especially their Successful 50 YEAR PEACE PACT. I've enjoyed "talking" with you. Best Wishes & PEACE!
mjcamck 3 weeks ago
I admit that there may have been some harmony between the first Pilgrims and SOME natives--but certainly the record is not 100 percent. We should not lose sight that further colonization of what became New England was a disaster for native tribes. i do not believe these issues have been addressed. The Pilgrims get heavy PR every year to the detriment of native tribes--it is like looking through a historical telescope from the wrong end. There is little dialogue and there needs to be.
windstorm1000 1 month ago
Yea they invited the friendly Indians... then they shot them all to death.
shutemdwn 1 month ago
@shutemdwn - Hello. Sorry, the Mayflower Pilgrims did NO SUCH THING. The incident you cite involved MASS. BAY PURITANS in 1637 - 16 Years AFTER the Plymouth Colony Harvest Feast shared by Mayflower Pilgrims & Wampanoag Indians in 1621, who also shared a Peace Pact which lasted 50 years. Please. Let's look for the good in people & celebrate harmonious, positive historical events. Please. Peace.
mjcamck 1 month ago
Hostility for atrocities committed by some colonists against Native Indians is justified. However, THANKSGIVING CELEBRATES THE POSITIVE, PEACEFUL ACTIONS OF THE FIRST GENERATION MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS ONLY who SAVED Indian lives & honored a PEACE PACT FOR 50 years.They did NOT enslave or annihilate anyone. All that ugliness was L-A-T-E-R by O-T-H-E-R-S. If anyone is concerned about justice, then let's refrain from blaming the INNOCENT Pilgrim Elders for the LATER actions of the guilty. Peace.
mjcamck 1 month ago
@mjcamck 'hostility for atrocities by some colonists against native indians is justified'---are you kiddingme??? that is a hitlerian point of view if there ever was one. you need to meet indian people and get their take on that era. seriously.
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@windstorm1000-Hello.For your information, I communicated extensively w/Indians from assorted tribes (esp.Seminole) during my community organizing days & then while pursuing graduate studies (esp. Cherokee). They also lament the fact that the example of peace & cooperation set by THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIM & WAMPANOAG TRIBE Elders from 1621-1671 was NOT followed by their descendants & LATER arriving colonists.Why are you blaming all colonists for the actions of some?Seriously? Peace.
mjcamck 1 month ago
Also--just one more thing--and then I'll end on this post--every American needs to read the history book "A People's History of the U. S." by Howard Zinn. It should be required reading in all high schools. Mr. Zinn's book gives an unvarnished/more researched look at "Thanksgiving" and every other period in U..S. history that has been glossed over. Lack of true information enslaves perpetrators of misery and their victims to a 'looking glass' of lies that never ends. That needs to stop.
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello. Happy to converse at a later date, but for the next week, I've got numerous Christmas obligations. I appreciate your being civil. Neither the Mayflower Pilgrim NOR Wampanoag ELDERS were guilty of massacre; although SOME of their descendants failed to follow their example. Just for the record, Indian tribes killed each other for thousands of years before the English arrived. War is a HUMAN invention, NOT specifically an "European" one. Peace.
mjcamck71 1 month ago
@mjcamck71 Your argument is specious. It is a documented fact that Europeans ACCELERATED warfare in the Americas by pitting one tribe against the other, by spreading blankets riddled with small pox, by slavery, etc etc. So your narrow view does not encompass the deviousness of colonial history over a 400 year span. Let us not even include the tyrant Columbus who simply worked Indians to death in mines as did other Spanish conqu.'s. Read this book: Chronicle of the Indian Wars.
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello.Again, your blaming the innocent, peaceful First Generation Mayflower Pilgrims for the LATER (or earlier) actions of OTHER colonists.Seriously. Columbus died in 1506. William Bradford wasn't even born until 1590.The Mayflower Pilgrims gave the Indians CLEAN, warm, factory-produced garments NOT disease ridden blankets. What, please, is your purpose in trying to paint these good & decent people as evil? Really. (PS-I'll answer any responses after my trip.)
mjcamck 1 month ago
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I used to be a pilgrim... then I took an »»──────► to the knee.
cokebaronacn 1 month ago
Name of the song 1:06 please
ThatFlyingFinn 2 months ago
does somebody knows the names of the song(s)? thanks a lot!
chestaone 2 months ago
As direct Mayflower Descendant, I THANK Samoset, Squanto & Chief Massasoit (WAMPANOAG Tribe) for saving Mayflower Pilgrim lives IN 1621. (These same Pilgrims SAVED Chief Massasoit's life & others in 1623). THE HORROR that came later WAS TRAGIC. So, so we invite others to do as my family has done - MAKE DONATIONS TO NATIVE INDIAN SOCIETIES & SCHOLARSHIP FUNDS. We can't change the past. We can only affect the present & future. PLEASE. Let's seek the GOOD in each other & work together for PEACE!
mjcamck 2 months ago
FACTS: the Peaceful 1621 MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS are NOT the same as the 1637 Mass. Bay PURITANS who did kill Indians. 1st Generation Mayflower Pilgrims were INVITED to stay on the land by Chief Massosoit, who wanted their guns & their manpower in defense against threatening tribes (Narransett, Pequot, Mohegan). The HORROR was LATER, by OTHERS. Thanksgiving celebrates a 50 year PEACE PACT, not Indian massacres. PLEASE. Let's emphasize the GOOD in humans & work to eliminate the bad. PEACE ALL!
mjcamck 2 months ago
This is total bull. The first thanksgiving was in St Augustine Florida when Spain captured St. Augustine with the indian's help. The spaniards and indians celebrated and it is known as the FIRST thanksgiving. And that happened in 1565 way before the first english colony.
XDDominatorXD 2 months ago
@XDDominatorXD - Hello. History is filled with harvest feasts & rituals of gratitude. I don't claim to know why the Plymouth Thanksgiving is the one celebrated. I doubt it was any kind of intentional disrespect to the participants of the event in 1565. It may just have been written down in a few more places & more widely circulated. Nothing is stopping Floridians (I was one for 12 years) from celebrating their own Thanksgiving if they wish. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
misleading story is highly unappreciated
meis 2 months ago
@meis - Hello. The only part I found "misleading" which I suspect was NOT intentional is the failure to point out that the Wampanoag brought much of the food, including 5 deer. What part do you consider misleading, please? Thank you.
mjcamck 2 months ago
Pure propaganda, with little truth. And so it goes, for 4 hundred years, let's ask a few of the indigenous people what they think!!!
NanaBaakan 2 months ago
@NanaBaakan - Hello. This IS TRUTHFUL; just incomplete. The 90 Wampanoag Indian Tribe members were the 54 Pilgrim's guests; they brought much of the food. THE WAMPANOAG INVITED THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS TO STAY ON THE LAND so the Pilgrims, w/ their muskets & metal weapons could stand with the Wampanoag in their battles against other IndianS. All the ugly, violent decimation of Indian people was done LATER, BY OTHERS, NOT, NOT THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS who had a PEACE PACT WHICH LASTED 50 YEARS. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@mjcamck This is a reasonable account. HOWEVER, today's Thanksgiving is NOT based on that harvest feast--which really was more a treaty get together. The Thanksgiving 's of today are based on annual 'holidays'of the 1630's on after hundreds of Indians were killed. AFter each battle, the govt called for a 'thanksgiving'--who would want to celebrate THESE atrocities??? Unintentionally or not??? Washington combined all these thanksgivings after massacres & Lincoln made them national
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello. Must be brief; have a houseful of Christmas guests. Just about ALL holidays & customs are COLLECTIONS of assorted parts which are added over the years. WHY is that a problem? The 1637 Pequot massacre/celebration was NOT the 1st Gen. Mayflower PILGRIMS who not only did NOT bring disease, they CURED INDIANS w/their advanced medical knowledge. Had their HARMONIOUS examples been followed, the atrocities would NOT have occurred. Peace.
mjcamck71 1 month ago
@mjcamck71 Its on record that 1000's of NA's were wiped out by small pox brought by traders in 1614.The Pilg.s spread disease is a foregone conclusion--they were Euro., 1/2 their pop. died, they were in contact w NA's--ergo, they br.disease. There is no question of this. & they didn't cure Ind. (medical was medieval)--it was other way around. Squanto, of the few survivors of a wiped out tribe, brought "Joe Pye" to the Pilg.s that helped w flu, etc. Get your facts straightened out.
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello.Please.My facts ARE straight; the Bradford/Massasoit Peace Pact formalized cooperation & MUTUAL aid between 1st Generation Mayflower Pilgrims & Wampanoag Indians.Pilgrims DID save Indian lives, inc.Chief Massasoit (1623) & supplied superior metal tools. Indians also saved Pilgrim lives (farming skills & herbal medicine, inc.gravel weed aka J.Pye.) Why are you blaming Mayflower Pilgrims for disease in 1614 - 6 years before they even arrived? Seriously. Why?
mjcamck 1 month ago
@mjcamck If ever there was a mixed up history holiday its Thanksgiving. The Pilgrims were fairly peaceful compared to the later Puritans--BUT they brought disease with them that decimated thousands of people--so, you see, there can be genocides of different kinds. And remember today's Thanksgiving has NOTHING to do with that idealized harvest feast--today's holiday is based on numerous 'thanksgivings' by the Puritan govt after thousands of people were wiped out (natives). Nice, huh.
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@NanaBaakan Right!!!!
windstorm1000 1 month ago
@NanaBaakan - Hello. Yours is a good question, so I checked. It was the Wampanoag Indians who shared the Harvest Feast in 1621 w/ the Mayflower Pilgrims. Their website (pokanoket.us) describes it thusly: "IT WAS A SPECIAL TIME OF FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN TWO VERY DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE." Very sadly, the descendants of both the Indian & Pilgrim Elders failed to follow their example of peaceful cooperation. Peace.
mjcamck 3 weeks ago
@mjcamck Gee, I wonder what happened to all those Wampanoag who had signed a a peace pact w the Pilgrims? If the Pil.'s didn't finish 'em off--who did? Wasn't there a little something called 'King' Philip's War in the 1670's where the W. were betrayed--& had to fight to keep their land? Of course--they didn't--& lost their heads--literally in the case of King Phillip--whose head was staked outside a Puritan town as a word to all transgressors. Those Puritans were some Christians,heh?
windstorm1000 3 weeks ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello. King Phillip's War resulted from a failure of the children of BOTH the Plymouth Colony & Wampanoag Tribe Elders to follow their peaceful example. There was betrayal on BOTH sides. Metacom aka K.Phillip was killed by another Indian. Some Wampanoag were exiled by the very colonists they'd allied with in battle. ALL wars are tragic. Here in 2012, let us learn from the past & work TOGETHER to re-build Native Communities. Farewell Now & PEACE.
mjcamck 3 weeks ago
THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS ARE NOT THE "PURITANS" (from whom they had separated back in England). Thanksgiving celebrates the PEACE PACT between Gov. Bradford/ Mayflower Pilgrims & Chief Massasoit/Wampanoag Tribe between 1621-1671. ALL THE UGLY VIOLENCE WAS COMMITTED BY LATER COLONISTS such as Gov. Winthrop/PURITANS in a completely DIFFERENT AREA. Pilgrim medical skills saved Chief Massasoit's life in 1623. Indian farming skills saved the Pilgrims. They shared a 3-Day HARVEST FEAST in 1621. PEACE.
mjcamck 2 months ago
the Indians did not thank 'God'--they thanked the Creator. There is very little records of this event. Give thanks to the indians--the pilgrims would have died!!
windstorm1000 2 months ago
@windstorm1000 - Hello. This video FULLY ACKNOWLEDGES the life saving assistance of the Native Indians. The Mayflower Pilgrims THANKED THE WAMPANOAG INDIANS by inviting them to share their 1621 harvest feast; 3 days of games & sport as well as dining on a variety of fare including seafood (they had LOBSTER!). The Pilgrims THANKED CHIEF MASSASOIT IN 1623 BY SAVING HIS LIFE WITH THEIR ADVANCED MEDICAL SKILLS. Their truce lasted 50 Years. Is that not something to celebrate? Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@windstorm1000 God is the Creator.
EmetTalmudim6 1 month ago
Ok--but you didn't do the follow up story---'thank god" why not thank the Indians?????? Another white washed account. Ignore Indian sharing and murder/theft against Indian tribes.
windstorm1000 2 months ago
Fà SCHIFò
shcark 2 months ago
It's missing the rest of the story...
jrock6467 2 months ago
@jrock6467 - Hello. History tells us the rest; IN 1671 some of the children of the Mayflower Pilgrim & Wampanoag elders, along w/ some newly arriving Puritans, broke the 1621 PEACE PACT signed by Chief Massasoit & Governor William Bradford. Also, 17 years after the shared Harvest Feast, other colonists attacked the Pequot Indians, then, SHAMEFULLY, "celebrated" their demise. However, in 1623 the Pilgrims SAVED CHIEF MASSASOIT'S LIFE w/more advanced medical skills. Please. PEACE.
mjcamck 2 months ago
fuck txgiving..long live wednesday adams:P
taliayu 2 months ago
If you want the truth about Thanksgiving...google it, or visit my blog at Phoenix Aquua, Arise from the Illusion...google it...there are about 3 articles I've posted regarding the fundamental truth about thanksgiving. It is now considered a National Day of Mourning. People are waking up and teaching their children the truth themselves....and this video is NOT the truth...if not, then you continue to live in a matrix of lies...i bet you celebrate xmas too?
PhoenixAquua2012 2 months ago
@PhoenixAquua2012 - Hi. While likely futile, being an eternal pacifist/optimist, I believe we must keep trying to seek UNDERSTANDING & HARMONY. All the atrocities committed against the Native Indian population occurred LATER. The 1621 Harvest Feast w/ the Wampanoag & Mayflower Pilgrims was A BRIEF SHINING MOMENT OF PEACE. Some, some of the children of the Indian & Pilgrim Elders which signed a PEACE PACT broke it w/ new arrivals. I join everyone who mourns HUMAN'S cruelty to others. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@mjcamck We must NEVER forget the TRUTH, because the TRUTH shall set us free,,,, again to find out the real truth, Google for yourself.
PhoenixAquua2012 2 months ago
@PhoenixAquua2012 - Hello. I Agree & the TRUTH IS THAT FOR 50 YEARS, two ethnically different groups of people worked & lived together in HARMONY. The Pilgrims shared their metal tools, weapons & factory produced goods w/the Indians who shared their life-saving farming/survival knowledge w/the Pilgrims. All the Horror was committed LATER by completely DIFFERENT colonist groups who FAILED TO FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THEIR ELDERS who had THANKED THE WAMPANOAG INDIANS properly. PEACE.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@mjcamck why do you emphasize the moment of peace. It's not a shining light to obliterate what was actually done consistently and without remorse by something that lasted one MOMENT! Thanksgiving should be a day of giving back and mourning for all Americans. And again, you show no sympathy, empathy, or compassion for what the Pilgrims did. History is not meant only to bear facts and truth. It's also to bear witness and memorize what happened so it will never happen again to any people.
etemuru 2 months ago
@etemuru - Hello. Sorry, NOT guilty of "no sympathy." I invite you to read my other posts. I state, repeatedly, that the LATER treatment by OTHER colonists against the Natives was shameful & I always mourn all atrocities committed by any group of humans against any others. The term "moment" is symbolic. THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIM/WAMPANOAG PEACE PACT LASTED 50 years - 50 YEARS! If those that followed their footsteps had also followed their example, the ugliness wouldn't have happened. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@etemuru - Hello.1 more point. Your accusation of "no compassion" is UNjustified. FYI, I have a 40 YEAR VOLUNTEER SERVICE RECORD w/social justice,civil rights & anti-hunger organizations. I work for Peace & am not interested in insulting you back. I mourn any violence by any human against another. The Pilgrims were INVITED to stay by both Squanto & Chief Massasoit who, successfully, used their presence (& guns) to prevent attacks by neighboring tribes (Narransett, Pequot, Mohegan). Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@etemuru - Hello.I did more research. What "the Pilgrims did" was accept an INVITATION by Wampanoag Tribe Chief (Massasoit) Ousamequin to live on land cleared by others. Also, what "the Pilgrims did" was HONOR a pact w/the Wampanoag which PREVENTED other tribes which had threatened them (Mohegan,Narrangasetts) from attacking. What the 1st Gen. Mayflower Pilgrims "did" was live & work in PEACE w/Indians for 50 Years; no apologies called for (until LATER for acts by OTHERS.) Peace.
mjcamck 6 days ago
Lady gaga thanksgiving ... The end of America
matters5 2 months ago
Thanksgiving day is nothing more than a harsh reminder of the genocide of millions of Native people, the theft of Native lands, and the relentless assault on Native culture. "I say to the American Indians, I mourn with you this week, and I understand your struggle, because I understand your plight." This is no thanksgiving for me because the truth is so painful.
PhoenixAquua2012 2 months ago
@PhoenixAquua2012 the fact that I'm Cherokee & Scots-Irish(just as many N/A are mixed) shows somebody had to be getting along. I'm not saying terrible things didn't happen, what I'm saying is it's equally VITAL we remember all the good things(including Thanksgiving)too.
EmetTalmudim6 1 month ago
Youtube is blocking the truth. - just tried to post two links of the truth behind thanksgiving day and they blocked them. Shame shame shame but this idiot can post about how his ppl had guns and was killing the native Indians and that get posted. Sad
SeeMeBoss 2 months ago
@SeeMeBoss the truth always prevails my brother....if ppl out there are wondering what the truth is...you can find a few articles on my blog at Phoenix Aquua...google it....it is ridiculous and ignorant when someone says: Happy Thanksgiving....it shows their stupidity on the subject, which is shameful!
PhoenixAquua2012 2 months ago
It didn't end there. The Indians were slaughtered by them same murderers they they ate with.
SeeMeBoss 2 months ago
@SeeMeBoss - Hello. Unfortunately, human history is filled with "slaughters." (We had one on 9/11/2011) Native Indian tribes even killed each other long before any colonists arrived. The violence you speak of was LATER & by OTHERS, NOT THE PEACEFUL MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS, although SOME of their children did not follow the non-violent cooperation example set by their elders. It's not too late to learn how to work together to create a free & prosperous society. Best Wishes & PEACE.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@mjcamck If they were so peaceful, then why didn't they move off the lands and sacrifice their new found religious freedom and go back to their native country rather than spread imperialism by taking over lands that were already occupied? You are so full of it.
etemuru 2 months ago
@etemuru - Hello. The Mayflower Pilgrims were INVITED TO STAY ON THE LAND BY SQUANTO whose tribe (Paxatucet) had all died, mainly from disease brought, UN-intentionally by previous English fisherman. The Wampanoag Chief Massasoit (whose life the Pilgrims saved in 1623) ALSO INVITED THE MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS TO STAY so they could ally with him in defense against other Indian tribes who threatened them. I respect your right to disagree with me, however, insults are uncalled for. Please. PEACE.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@mjcamck I don't believe you. Revisionist history has always been guilty. Show me and prove it. Now if everything was so peaceful, where did all the Indians go? Did the Pilgrims write letters home telling of this so-called peaceful time? Any relics or authentic memories from that peaceful time? My truth tells me all I need to know because I don't see any Indians around where the Pilgrims landed. Whatever you produce as proof would need to be authenticated by an archaeologist that I deemed fit.
etemuru 2 months ago
@etemuru - Hello. Again, it was LATER that OTHER colonists failed to honor the 1621 Peace Pact by Wampanoag Chief Massasoit & Governor William Bradford & instead chose the violence which decimated the Native population. Sadly, the Indian tribes were too busy killing each other to stand united against the colonists. Speaking of authenticity, WHERE IS YOUR PROOF that their 50 Year Peace Pact never happened as recorded in writing & by Indian oral history? Seriously. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@etemuru - Hello. One last point, I just wanted to respond to the first sentence of your reply. "I don't believe you" is another way of calling a person a liar, which is unjustified, incorrect & unproductive to an intelligent conversation. Chief Massasoit wanted both the guns & manpower the Mayflower Pilgrims could give in the defense of his Wampanoag against the Narransett, Pequot & Mohegan tribes who threatened them. That's why he INVITED the Pilgrims to stay. I am not a liar. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@etemuru because they forgot God's purpose for sending them there. Whenever you do that you sooner or later screw up.
EmetTalmudim6 1 month ago
@SeeMeBoss - Please; the first generation MAYFLOWER PILGRIMS DID NOT SLAUGHTER ANYONE. Although, later, SOME of their children/grandchildren did not HONOR THE PEACE TREATY BETWEEN CHIEF MASSASOIT & GOVERNOR WILLIAM BRADFORD. Thanksgiving celebrates the brief but shining period in history when two ethnically different groups of people worked & lived together in HARMONY. Does the fact that the truce didn't last mean we shouldn't celebrate it's existence? Please. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
Oh stop all your whining and stick a turkey in it.
XChippsssX 2 months ago
so where is the mass murder on this video? i'm a native american descendant and i find this story fucking insulting to the truth.
91lilfrozone23 2 months ago
@91lilfrozone23 - Hello. I'm truly very sorry for the pain of your Native American ancestors. There's no excuse for the actions of some of the colonists - none. However, the reason there's no mass murder in the video is because this particular event was an oasis of Peace & Harmony between the Mayflower Pilgrims & The Wampanoag Indian Tribe in Fall, 1621. The ugliness you may be referring to (Pequot War) was 17 years later by a completely DIFFERENT group of colonists. Best Wishes to You.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@91lilfrozone23 i agree.
PhoenixAquua2012 2 months ago
feliz dia del guajolote para todos y mi cumpleanos tambien
juanjalvarez11 2 months ago
@juanjalvarez11 - English translation, please? Thank you.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@mjcamck there is google translate that will help you help yourself.
PhoenixAquua2012 2 months ago
@PhoenixAquua2012 - Hello. If you won't tell me, I can only presume it's not a friendly message, so I'm not interested. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in the U.S.A.! :)
We enjoyed learning new things about Thanksgiving through this video!
regards from Greece!
thumbs up!
anthikar 2 months ago
@anthikar - Hello person in Greece! I'm a Mayflower Descendant & our first child was born on Thanksgiving morning so it's extra special to us. The video is accurate except for the fact that the Native Indians brought some food themselves, including 5 deer. While 50 years later, Native Indian/Colonist relations went sour w/ the arrival of some violent Puritans, the Fall 1621 Harvest Feast w/ Mayflower Pilgrims & Wampanoag Indians was BRIGHT MOMENT OF PEACE in world history. Best Wishes.
mjcamck 2 months ago
@mjcamck you living in a delusional world....not true at all....fundamentally! Take the time and educate yourself, and your children and stop perpetuating and promoting this lie..This is a National Day of Mourning, nothing to celebrate....the birth of a child is something different and doesn't add itself to the thanksgiving...please read my ARTICLES on Phoenix Aquua, Arise from the Illusion....you can google me...I have about 3 articles on the truth of killing of the Wampanoag Indians & 1st tg
PhoenixAquua2012 2 months ago
@PhoenixAquua2012 - Hello. Once again, I'm fully aware that LATER, the Native Indian population was decimated by colonists. HUMAN HISTORY IS FILLED WITH SHAMEFUL BEHAVIOR BY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE TOWARD ANOTHER. I join you in MOURNING (I'm the victim of violence myself) that FACT. The point is, for 50 years in the 1600's, 2 ethnically different groups of people worked & lived together in PEACE & COOPERATION. It's TRAGIC that their example was NOT followed. IT'S NOT TOO LATE. Please. Peace.
mjcamck 2 months ago
There are two major reasons this is not possible today:
1) The Godless Democrat Party and,
2) The ACLU and its constant quest to remove everything religious from society.
The reason the pilgrims were so peaceful was because they were a God fearing people and they worshiped and tried to live by Gods word as in the Bible. We cannot presume to live in peace today without the help and stewardship of God Almighty. Man does not have that capacity alone. He cannot control his greed, envy, or hate.
MegaRick57 2 months ago
@MegaRick57 - Hello. I agree. The more "modern" civilization denies & distances itself from God, our Creator, the more misery occurs despite massive advances in material goods production & electronics inventions. Now that Thanksgiving is behind us, it's officially The Christmas Season, so MERRY CHRISTMAS, GOD BLESS & PEACE ON EARTH TO YOU!
mjcamck 2 months ago
@anthikar your definintely kidding right? You are aware that America and it's people sit behind a veil of illusion...right? You do have books in Greece don't you? Why don't you do a google search on the REAL truth about Thanksgiving...it's a National Day of Mourning for the genocide created by the Europeans .... omgosh ...it's got to be a joke what you just wrote...how insulting....read about the truth on my blog Phoenix Aquua....google me....and then come back and comment here...
PhoenixAquua2012 2 months ago