I don't completely understand when he's asking Callius about his sons. What is the point he's trying to get across? I might just be thinking about it too hard but do you think you can explain it to me? I have to right a paper on part of this piece and I want to understand everything as much as I can.
Callias has sons, whom Callias, as Socrates assumes, cares for. So he has an interest in their leading their lives in accordance with their own proper virtue. The virtue of (bred) horses and cows/bulls (formerly foals and calves) is obedience and usability for riding etc. Trainers implement that virtue in the horses and cows/bulls. Who, he asks, is the trainer of humans who would implement their virtue (which Socrates cannot name, as he does not know it) in them?
Then there is some variance in translation that you might try to clarify in the original Greek version or at least comment upon by checking out various English translations and commentaries indeed if your paper is also philological in nature: When (as Socrates reports) Callias says that there is a "trainer" for the sons who teaches them their own proper virtue and tells Socrates who he is and what he charges, Socrates (here in Jowett's translation) says:
"Happy is Evenus, I said to myself, if he really has this wisdom, and teaches **at such a moderate charge**. Had I the same, I should have been very proud and conceited; but the truth is that I have no knowledge of the kind."
The problematic passage or word is the Greek ἐμμελῶς (an adverb from ἐμμελής, ἐμμελές meaning "harmonic", "melodic", but also "moderate", "adequate", "fine", "clever"). Just this word Jowett rendered -- somewhat freely -- as: "at such a moderate charge".
Now the German translation by Schleiermacher and also some (I even think, all) of the other european-language translations I presented here run somehow like this, I translate from the Greek myself:
"And I praised Euenos [as a/to be a happy man] if he really had [knows/possesses] this art and teaches **so fine/so well/so excellently**. I myself, however, would be boasting and showing myself off if I knew that kind of thing: But I don't know [it], oh Athenian men."
therefore, depends on the extent to which you think Socrates makes fun of Evenus. Does he want to say that five minae is still too little for teaching that kind of virtue or does he merely say that he doesn't have that teaching ability and does not comment on the amount that Evenus charges at all? But why then would he say that Evenus teaches so well? Jowett's reading is not bad at all seen from this perspective.
It's the old problem that words like "fine" "adequate" have two meanings...
in many languages anyway, Greek is not the only language where ἐμμελῶς or an equivalent word has two senses. You also have it in English: "fine" may mean perfect/excellent/very good as well as adequate/passable/moderately good. Depending on how you understand the Greek word here, Socrates may have referred to the price of Evenus's lessons or to his excellence in teaching... Maybe Schleiermacher and many others did not like the former reading cause it would have meant that S. estimates a money...
value that teaching human virtue has; and on the continent, such utilitarian views are (still today) even more controversial than in the anglo-saxon world....
I don't completely understand when he's asking Callius about his sons. What is the point he's trying to get across? I might just be thinking about it too hard but do you think you can explain it to me? I have to right a paper on part of this piece and I want to understand everything as much as I can.
sirenpacificus 3 years ago
Callias has sons, whom Callias, as Socrates assumes, cares for. So he has an interest in their leading their lives in accordance with their own proper virtue. The virtue of (bred) horses and cows/bulls (formerly foals and calves) is obedience and usability for riding etc. Trainers implement that virtue in the horses and cows/bulls. Who, he asks, is the trainer of humans who would implement their virtue (which Socrates cannot name, as he does not know it) in them?
Jackies1979 3 years ago
Then there is some variance in translation that you might try to clarify in the original Greek version or at least comment upon by checking out various English translations and commentaries indeed if your paper is also philological in nature: When (as Socrates reports) Callias says that there is a "trainer" for the sons who teaches them their own proper virtue and tells Socrates who he is and what he charges, Socrates (here in Jowett's translation) says:
Jackies1979 3 years ago
"Happy is Evenus, I said to myself, if he really has this wisdom, and teaches **at such a moderate charge**. Had I the same, I should have been very proud and conceited; but the truth is that I have no knowledge of the kind."
The problematic passage or word is the Greek ἐμμελῶς (an adverb from ἐμμελής, ἐμμελές meaning "harmonic", "melodic", but also "moderate", "adequate", "fine", "clever"). Just this word Jowett rendered -- somewhat freely -- as: "at such a moderate charge".
Jackies1979 3 years ago
Now the German translation by Schleiermacher and also some (I even think, all) of the other european-language translations I presented here run somehow like this, I translate from the Greek myself:
"And I praised Euenos [as a/to be a happy man] if he really had [knows/possesses] this art and teaches **so fine/so well/so excellently**. I myself, however, would be boasting and showing myself off if I knew that kind of thing: But I don't know [it], oh Athenian men."
The translation of ἐμμελῶς...
Jackies1979 3 years ago
therefore, depends on the extent to which you think Socrates makes fun of Evenus. Does he want to say that five minae is still too little for teaching that kind of virtue or does he merely say that he doesn't have that teaching ability and does not comment on the amount that Evenus charges at all? But why then would he say that Evenus teaches so well? Jowett's reading is not bad at all seen from this perspective.
It's the old problem that words like "fine" "adequate" have two meanings...
Jackies1979 3 years ago
in many languages anyway, Greek is not the only language where ἐμμελῶς or an equivalent word has two senses. You also have it in English: "fine" may mean perfect/excellent/very good as well as adequate/passable/moderately good. Depending on how you understand the Greek word here, Socrates may have referred to the price of Evenus's lessons or to his excellence in teaching... Maybe Schleiermacher and many others did not like the former reading cause it would have meant that S. estimates a money...
Jackies1979 3 years ago
value that teaching human virtue has; and on the continent, such utilitarian views are (still today) even more controversial than in the anglo-saxon world....
Jackies1979 3 years ago
thankyou m8, not exactly the same as what im reading but close enough and enjoyable to hear!
enuuee 4 years ago