Japanese Sword: Tamahagane Smelting with Bladesmiths Walter Sorrells and Jesus Hernandez

[dipidulor]

great to see such art. thank you for sharing this video. -respect-

[mojothemigo]

Isn't the pattern the similar/same as a patternweld damascus? If somebody wanted a patern like that with a single steel, would you get a pattern from stacking and folding multiple pieces of the same steel?

[slappybuckshot]

@mojothemigo Sure, the principle is exactly the same. Tamahagane results in a subtler and "softer" pattern. But to a layman, honestly, it wouldn't look that dramatically different from a well forged damascus with similar layer count.

[mojothemigo]

@slappybuckshot Thank you for such a fast reply. :D

[dashwerks]

i absolutely love the hamon pattern on that blade

[Danglesboy1]

wondering does the bar need always be hot? i mean do you work on it till your done or do you let cool leave for whatever and then return to finish .

[slappybuckshot]

@Danglesboy1 If I understand your question, you're wondering if when you're processing and consolidating the bloom into a steel bar, you need to keep it hot. The answer is absolutely yes. Steel cracks when it's deformed in a cold state. But additionally, it's too hard to move when it's cold. So you have to heat it up to be able to squash it. The hotter it is, the more easily it's deformed.

[Danglesboy1]

maybe its already came up but are you guys willing to sell some of this um what do you guys call it you must name it you know . your creation not japanese made . again how much i will buy .thank you .

[slappybuckshot]

@Danglesboy1 I can't speak for Jesus (we both do our own smelts a lot of the time), but basically I just make enough for my own projects, so unfortunately I don't make enough to sell. Thanks for asking, though!

[AnimatorsatWork]

Hi! A while ago I asked what the ratio of charcoal to iron ore was used to make the steel you made, but after thinking and planning out how to smelt it, I forgot to ask you specifically the ratio of charcoal and iron ore. Aside from what ore was used and what furnace it was smelted in from your last answer to me, does it depend on weight or volume, like is it 3 lbs of charcoal for every 1 lb of ore or is it 3 liters of charcoal to 1 liter of ore?

[slappybuckshot]

@AnimatorsatWork It goes by weight, so 3 lbs charcoal to 1 lb of ore is a reasonable starting point. You may have to take a few runs at it to get what you're looking for, but that's where I'd start.

[choopdewoot]

what about the crystal structure alot of tamahagane swords have?

[slappybuckshot]

@choopdewoot All steel has a crystal structure. Tamahagane doesn't result in a crystalline structure that's different from any other steel. In some swords, for instance in the Soshu tradition, there are large crystals known as nie that are visible. It's unclear exactly what causes this, metallurgically speaking. I've had batches of tamahagane that seemed to be more susceptible to it and others that didn't. Kind of a mystery!

[choopdewoot]

@choopdewoot are you one of the guys mentioned in the above video? also any chance i could pay for a lump of tamahagane

[diosceles]

A "relatively even distribution of carbon throughout the steel" as the narrator states implies a maru assembly style. Out of curiosity, have you tried more complex assembly methods such as kobuse or hansanmai? The video shows you testing for differing carbon content within the steel, so I'm wondering if you've ever attempted these other styles. Or do you feel it isn't necessary with the additional refining you perform on the steel?

[slappybuckshot]

@diosceles This introduces a lot of complext isssues. But,right, strictly speaking the even distribution of carbon is in the billet not the blade, per se. Of course in kobuse welds and so on, each section of the blade has its own unique carbon content. I've tested enough monosteel blades to destruction to feel that complex welding schemes are unnecessary with modern steel. Whether that applies to tamahagane blades is hard to say. Haven't tested enough to know for sure.

[goldkylegold]

where do you get your Iron ore from?

[slappybuckshot]

@goldkylegold We've used a variety of things including industrial products which are not ores, per se, but are chemically equivalent to ore and then we've used things like taconite, which is a concentrated ore from Minnesota. Basically everything is scrounged.

[dreamerofdragonz]

I'm writing a research paper on traditional techniques to make swords. This video and the comments have been super helpful in understanding how to make tamahagane. Thanks so much!

[St0RM33]

nothing beats the traditional way..i'm a mechanical engineer and the the whole process and philosophy behind japanese traditional katana craftsmanship it has a way on its own...the blade has a soul of its own..

[Cokecanninja]

Dang, that's a lot of work. Have you noticed any difference in performance between modern steel katana and this method?

[slappybuckshot]

@Cokecanninja The payoff with this kind of steel is totally in the esthetics. It just looks more interesting due to the depth of the grain or pattern in the steel. If you just want performance, you're better off with a modern steel like W2, 5160, L6, etc.

[TheKingdomofErnor]

@slappybuckshot Can you recommend any resource of information for learning about different kinds of steels? The subject is more difficult to find information about online than I would expect.

[slappybuckshot]

@TheKingdomofErnor Hm. That's a tough one. You're right, there just isn't really a single source that gives you a sort of "cheat sheet" summary of various steels. If you're interested from the smithing perspective, I'd try reading some of the basic books about bladesmithing first. I'm planning on doing a video at some point that would give an explanation of the various standard steels used by Bladesmiths...but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

[TheKingdomofErnor]

@slappybuckshot I hope you do make that video. Thanks for the quick response as always :3!

[jadekayak01]

Get a book on metalurgy(a modern one) or do a search on metalurgy.Do not follow bladesmiths or weapon smiths to start with as they have a narrow focus.Try general principles like more carbon for hardness/brittleness and the other common addatives then move onto the more complex steels like cromoly and vanadium steels,stainless steels,tool steels,spring steels,and bearing steel THEN go back to bladesmiths and blade steels as a main focus.No magic but pure science-even tamahagane becomes easier

[TheKingdomofErnor]

@jadekayak01 good advice

[blacksmither1]

is that iron or slag pourin out of the break

[slappybuckshot]

@blacksmither1 Good question. In this case, it's slag. You can get a furnace like this hot enough to melt cast iron...but if you're cranking out signifcant amounts of cast iron, you're getting too much carbon absorbed in the iron and so the furnace isn't doing what you're aiming for.

[blacksmither1]

@slappybuckshot thanks for the explanation friend

[AnimatorsatWork]

I know that you said that you need to fool around with the amount of iron ore and charcoal to make the steel but from your experience, what is the closest ratio from charcaoal to iron ore that you guys had to make the perfect steel or is that kinda secret or does it vary sometimes?

[slappybuckshot]

@AnimatorsatWork With the qualification that it depends on furnace design, ore type, how hard you drive the furnace, etc., I've had the best success running about 3 charcoal to 1 ore.  When I go up closer to 4 to 1, I start getting a lot of cast iron. When I go in the other direction, I tend to get more medium carbon material.

[slyphsoldier]

@slappybuckshot

I am learning about forging and your videos are extremely helpful one question when the blade was super heated and flash cooled is that the same as tempering

[slappybuckshot]

@slyphsoldier  In metallurgical terms, when you heat the blade and then rapidly cool it -- that's called quenching. The purpose of quenching is to harden the steel. "Tempering" refers to a second thermal cycling process where you heat the steel to a much lower temperature (typically around 400 F in the case of high carbon steels), which relieves stresses in the steel and softens it slightly, making it less brittle and less susceptible to cracking.

[PCoderch]

This is not tamahagane. Real tamahagane is made with satetsu, an iron sand from the mountains of Japan. Then it has to be made in a CLAY smelter. The only way for you to make reall tamahagane in the West would be to find iron sand and then smelt it into steel in a clay smelter. That would be real tamahagane.

[slappybuckshot]

@PCoderch Word games. Satetsu is simply sand with magnetite in it. In this video we use a hematite ore, but we also frequently use magnetite. The results are the same. And clay? The chemically significant component of clay is silica. Just like the lining of our smelter. If it makes you happy to use another word to describe the same chemical processes and the same resulting materials, hey, be my guest. But a spade's a spade, no matter what you call it.

[PCoderch]

@slappybuckshot  Go ahead and compare the "tamahagane" you smelted with bloom of tamahagane smelted in a real Japanese tatara. It looks completely different. It is a sponge of steal.

[slappybuckshot]

@PCoderch I've seen material from the NBTHK tatara. It's quite heterogeneous. Parts of each bloom (kera) are dense, parts are spongy. Same with ours. It is precisely that heterogeneity -- not its sponginess -- that differentiates tamahagane from modern steel. You can use a tatara to produce anything from iron to steel to cast iron. It's the technique employed, not the smelter design that dictates the form of the product. Tataras are just one among a broad family of historical smelter types.

[PCoderch]

@slappybuckshot I am not going to get into a protracted debate about the nature of tamahagane steel. Real tamahagane is such a specific and special steel that trying to make it outside Japan without Japanese ores is completely futile. I do admire the incredible quality and superb finishing and polishing of your swords. You are a true master of the craft and one of the very best outside Japan. Your katanas should be admired for the outstanding craft and technique with which they are made

[PCoderch]

@PCoderch but NOT for the materials with which they are made.

[slappybuckshot]

@PCoderch That's gracious of you to say and I sincerely appreciate it. My main point about tamahagane is simply that either tamahagane has a fairly precise metallurgical meaning...or else it's just mystification. Our material is produced using a modestly tweaked version of ancient smelting techniques and yields material which metallurgical lab tests have confirmed is in the same chemical range as published data on the chemistry of steel used in traditionally made Japanese swords.

[archlord371]

finaly a real bladesmoth!!!!

[MrThahey]

I'm wondering if this is similar to that of wrought iron; being the grain pattern which strengthens the metal and helps to even out the oxidation on the surface. I'm just wondering

[slappybuckshot]

@MrThahey Before the introduction of puddling in th late 18th century, wrought iron was sometimes produced in a similar way. By varying the fuel-to-ore ratio and the airflow, you can produce wrought iron, steel or cast iron. To address your question about the grain pattern: in its final form, wrought iron doesn't have nearly as many layers a the steel in a Japanese blade. But the process is similar.

[zabuzato]

Lol, Jesus in da video :O

[akoair]

wouldn't the blades need some kind of polishing? they say it cuts smoother and faster... 

[slappybuckshot]

@akoair Sure. The shaping of all Japanese style blades leads more or less seamlessly to the final polishing of the blade as you move through finer and finer abrasives. The final polish not only sharpens and smooths the blade (making it cut efficiently), but reveals the features of the steel. So it's kind of two birds with one stone.

[kakashi1578]

So, what would be the cheapest hardwood charcoal to use for this and still get a good result, and also where can you get that 365 brand that they are using in the video and how much is it?

[slappybuckshot]

@kakashi1578 We've used a bunch of different kinds and they all worked fine. 365 is a proprietary brand of Whole Foods, but you can usually find hardwood charcoal at places that sell high end grilling equipment (Big Green Egg, for instance). The price seems to fluctuate between around $5 and $9 per 8 lb bag. Another place to try would be big box hardware stores like Lowes and Home Depot.

[kakashi1578]

@slappybuckshot Ok, thanks a lot ^_^

[kakashi1578]

@slappybuckshot one more question, what would you say is the average amount of charcoal you buy for tamahagane smelting (in pounds)? and also where can you get the iron ore from?

[slappybuckshot]

@kakashi1578 The 365 brand is available only at Whole Foods stores, but pretty much any brand should work fine. They're all made from hardwood mill scraps. As far as pricing goes, you just have to shop around as the prices can swing by several bucks a bag depending on what time of year it is.

[kakashi1578]

@slappybuckshot OK, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions ^_^.

[kyamelon]

slappy , thanks for your kind reply , but I'm trying to learn the japanese sword making , not knives , so , most likely I will buy walter's DVD set, I like how he express there is no magic on making them , but hard work , and if that is the same case with the tool , then , I can't wait to sep up shop!

[kyamelon]

ok , here is a question to Walter , I saw in his website you offer DVD's to learn , how about materials? , it is really expensive to build a simplified shop , where with hard work you can achieve similar results as yours?, what are the most expensive tools you need to set up your shop?, thanks for your answer in advance , I'm more and more interested on this art, I'm a bronze sculptor myself.

[slappybuckshot]

@kyamelon You can get started with quite a simple and cheap set-up. It's possible to make high quality knives without any power tools. You can find used anvils and make your own forge pretty cheaply. In the long run, though, most knife makers end up buying a high quality belt grinder ($1000+), a drill press, and a hydraulic forge press or a power hammer ($3000+). The press or power hammer is only necessary for making folded steel.

[coolboy1282]

Tamahagane and cold steel, which one is better?

[numnumnum08]

i like my music in the back

[AaronAlso]

Very well done, good to see smiths preserving the art of smelting their own steel.

I checked out some of the other videos and the website too. Although out of my price range, you make some beautiful blades.

[cantujj]

COOL

[snapnjamin]

would you sell the steel separate and if so how much do you charge?

[slappybuckshot]

Walter and Jesus don't sell their tamahagane at this point. Right now they both are focusing on producing it for their own blades, which doesn't leave a lot of time to produce the material for other smiths.

[krispy022]

this is amazing some dumb ass on another video said you cut corners relly he should watch this

[niksechtniks]

i made the swordt of 5160 steel that is good steel for a katana and.... tamahaga is beter that is the best steel for a katana

[aerodynamicband]

i have a question if you recycle steel by using factory produced that you've got from a alvage yard (leaf springs and such) how will blades made that way compare to these blades performance wise ( edge retention, strength, flexibility, etc.)

[slappybuckshot]

The big problem with what smiths refer to as "mystery steel" is that it's hard to accurately determine what kind of steel it is. Leaf springs usually make decent blades...but you're always having to guess a bit about how to heat treat the steel. My feeling is that steel is cheap, so why not start with a known quantity. That way you aren't running down a blind alley. Everybody's got budgets to deal with, of course, so if you're really strapped for cash, leaf springs are a good practice steel.

[DarkThug13]

How is it so you complete the job in a matter of 100 hours.. I heard kantana's are forged and the whole procedure they takes 6 to 8 months whereas your job is done much more quickly does your blade compare with those that are built with a longer frame of time? how about quality

[slappybuckshot]

Japanese smiths are only allowed by law to make two katanas a month. Assuming a normal workweek -- that's 80 hours per sword. Smiths during world war II frequently made as many as ten blades a month. The elapsed time these days might be six months but the number of man hours would be similar to mine. As far as quality goes, the monosteel blades I make are higher performance than a traditionally made Japanese sword...but esthetically you'd have to say they are in a less complex category.

[DarkThug13]

hmm.. intresting i heard on one site that importing Mono-steel from japan to the states are illegal? sorry i am new to the whole blacksmith scene and whats the pro's and cons of using Mono-steel as opposed to Tamahagane? just want to gain some insight into these two types of metal.. Your video inspires me to start my own furnace as well as getting your dvd to begin on my own journey of forging blades.

Bless

[DarkThug13]

never mind i guess Tamahagane is more flexible and mono is stiffer. either way i have some time on my hands and i want to pick the right steel for my Preferences.

[litemup67]

@slappybuckshot I'm really trying not to be a pest, but the more I learn, the more questions come up. So your monosteel blades perform better?! The ones made from tool steel right? So what are the aesthetic differences? Do the monosteel blades not have that gruvy looking skin they talk about because I'm looking at the finishes of your blades and they're smokin!?

[slappybuckshot]

@litemup67 Sure, the modern steel blades are made from a more predictable and homogeneous material, so it's easier to optimize their performance. The main esthetic difference is in the hada or grain pattern caused by the folding of the steel. But as far as the hamon (sometimes erroneously referred to as a "temper line"), you can make those in certain kinds ofmodern steels using the same techniques as you'd use on traditional blades.

[virusdapimp]

@slappybuckshot From what I herd is that Tamahagane swords are lighter then that of others, is that true :?

[slappybuckshot]

@virusdapimp While it's true that there are tiny voids and silica stringers in blades forged using traditional methods, I can't imagine they'd be enough for anybody to notice in actual practice. It's not something I've noticed anyway...

[virusdapimp]

@slappybuckshot Idk ;/ I'm just intrested more in the traditional way of it being made :D

[slappybuckshot]

Youtube blocks direct links on the comment pages. But both Walter and Jesus have web sites with details about their work that you can easily track down through Google.

[falconx1]

This is REALLY AWESOME! Question: Do you or could you make particular swords to individual consumers? If so, do you have a website where anyone can order a specific type of sword.

[oldfashionedgent]

First just like to say what an incredible video, realy love it good work.

I do have a few questions on your prosses if you would be kind enough to take the time and answer.

How much in weight, coal and iron sand do you use?

What temp do you keep the furnace?

What do you use to supply air to the fire.

How long do you keep the fire going before you take out the blume.

Sorry for all the questions, but have been thinking of doing this prosses and would like all the info I can get.

Cheers.

[slappybuckshot]

With the qualification that every smelt is a little different and you adjust on the fly... Generally I aim for a ratio of ore-to-charcoal by weight rather than a particular poundage. Around 1-to-3. We use a shopvac for air, but any kind of blower will work. The furnace runs at well over 2500 F around the tuyeres, much lower at the top. We basically run the furnace until it stops operating correctly (due mainly to the walls melting, clogging tuyeres, etc.). Eight to ten hours usually.

[MicroMachines83]

Hey,

very nice video!!! The ore you are using...is it magnetite (satetsu)? And where do you get it from?

Keep on forging...

Mirco

[slappybuckshot]

We have used magnetite in the form of taconite (an ore found in Minnesota) which is similar to satetsu, powdered hematite, which is not that similar to satetsu, and various other materials. We got the taconite from Mike Blue, a smith who lives in Minnesota. The powdered hematite is from a pottery supply company and is sold as glaze medium. The ore on this video was specular hematite from Canada that we got third-hand, so I don't know the original source.

[slappybuckshot]

Sorry, inadvertantly, killed your other comment. To answer your question, though...yes we usually add a small amount of silica flux. If you're using a natural source that's only 75% iron oxide, you probably won't need any flux at all as there will be plenty of silica in the ore.

[rotorhead20b]

hey guys :-) bad ass video!! I enjoyed it greatly. I just had a question? Have you guys seen any signs of the bloom obsorbing any of the lime or other minerals in the concrete? Thank you for the vid. Keep up the awesome work :-)

[slappybuckshot]

The main mineral in the lining of the video is silicon, which just melts into the bloom as slag. Other than that you've mainly got calcium compounds in the portland cement. As far as I can tell, they don't have any particular effect...but it's pretty hard to know.