Is anyone in here who claims the title Roman Catholic not embarrassed by the utterly shallow "answers" that catholic apologists provide to you? Which one of you would tolerate this by a Protestant?
Please show me where the Church Fathers taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary? Oh I forgot they didn't. Sorry I thought that Roman Catholics actually were critical in their thinking and how they arrive at conclusions. I didn't know that you blindly follow what Rome espouses. My mistake.
I see just the opposite. When I was an Evangelical pastor, I found Catholic apologist to be very detailed.
The Assumption was articulated over time; the phraseology. The belief was there, and yes, we do do see the ECF speak of this, especially those in the East.
However, Assumption merely means to take. As a Christian, you do believe that the righteous dead are alive in heaven correct?
@baldonebear Really then why has every catholic apologist resort to ad-hominem when debating James White who wipes the floor with them every single time. As far as the assumption being "articulated over time" goes so was the book of mormon. Who cares it is was articulated. There were tons of heresies that were articulated over time. That proves absolutely nothing. .
@baldonebear Those in Heaven live with Christ. But they died and passed into Heaven. They can't hear us and there is nothing in the Bible that indicates that at all. I understand the argument that you ask them to pray for you. The saints in heaven are worshipping God day and night and are not listening to our petty little problems.
@baldonebear No I am not just like I am not sure that there are not Martians that live in New York, but that is not how you conduct logic. You look for evidence then draw you conclusions. In the case of the saints, there is nothing in the bible that states that the saints hear your prayers, just like there is nothing in the paper about Martians living in New York.
"Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by the one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished."
Nor does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this, a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said."
@baldonebear Read my previous comments. The term "catholic" doesn't equal "Roman Catholic." The word catholic simply meant universal and bares no resemblence to today's modern roman catholic church. The fact that they used the term "catholic" doesn't amount to a hill of beans with regards to today's roman catholic church.
@baldonebear Gosh this is one of the lamest arguments that I have ever encountered. So are you saying that if the roman catholic church uses the word "hammer" and the church fathers did too, that means that they are roman catholic? How absurd your logic or lack thereof.
@baldonebear YOu are not refuting anything that I have said. YOu are simply telling me what you believe. I find it hilairious when catholics use JND Kelly and take him so far out of context, just like they try and do the same with Augustine.
Really!?! Watch this. Type "Catholic Bible vs. Protestant Bible" in the search window of youtube and watch the first video that comes up in its completeness.
Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus NO priest can give absolution.follow bible or man. Man can only serve ONE master..God or mannon. read your bibles and ask holy spirit to give you an understanding the spirit is ur helper and ur guide NOt man made religion.Yahushua and Yahuwah! jesus is a transliterated name for the saviors name is not jesus.letter j didnt come about til 500 yr ago.hebrew Yahushua to Greek iesus to english jesus.
@baldonebear Those in Christ are no longer under the Law of death, but they are not above ALL LAW, NO NO ONE IS ABOVE ALL LAW, NOT EVEN CHRIST, CHRIST HIMSELF IS UNDER THE LAW OF LOVE, THE FATHER HIMSELF IS UNDER THE LAW OF MERCY, THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF IS UNDER THE LAW OF LIBERTY.
@baldonebear The 10 commandments Apply and have always Applied, they Applied Before they were written and after they were written. In fact even the Law applies, but the law is spiritual, the Mosaic law that does NOT APPLY is the CARNAL interpretation of the Law. Read the Epistle of Barnabas for a deeper understanding of this grand concept Christianity has lost in this past century.
@baldonebear The 613 laws idea is a Jewish myth derived Hundreds of years after Christ, to read a REAL Christian interpretation of this "mythical 613 laws" please read "the Epistle of Barnabas". You say Barnabas is "not authoritative", I venture to say if Barnabas has no authority than neither does any early Christian source, Barnabas being one of the earliest.
@baldonebear Barnabas is considered Sacred Tradition in the Church and therefore has impacted the decisions of the Church and does have authority in the Church. "Jewish historical reality" is not a reality, the Jews said Jesus taught his apostles to worship rocks, is this a "Jewish historical reality"?
Um..no, it is not considered Sacred Tradition, but it was read with authority at certain points, and by certain groups, but not by all. it does not, for example, hole the same level as the letters of Clement.
I am not sure how much you know about Judaism, but it would appear, not much. To say that it is not reality is truly ignorance.
Not only as a Protestant, but as a Catholic what I have stated about 613 laws is accurate.
@baldonebear St. Jerome himself attests to Apostolic Authorship to the Epistle of Barnabas. If not for inspiration sake then for historical sake see how the early Christians interpreted the Jewish Law, which is not Jewish at all but Spiritual, Saint Paul says the Law is Spiritual. To say "613 laws" were given to the Jews and not the rest of the world that is not "spiritual" that is interpreting it carnally. For example do not eat pig NEVER meant a prohibition of pork products.
We are to follow His teachings and are not bound under the law of the OT. It is not necessary, as the New Testament has fulfilled the Old. Read, read, read. Read the whole and not the parts.
@hiswife2002 Jesus said "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." let me ask you a question, if Jesus fulfilled the law of the OT and the law of the OT we are not bound under, why did St. Paul write "the Law is Spiritual"? And to be spiritually minded is life?
@LifeLibertyLove Gal. 2:16-"know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.So we too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. "
Gal.3:10-"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
I did not say we are not bound by His law...I said we are not bound by the law as found in the Old Testament, as that era is closed. Look to the New Testament if you want to know what has replaced it.
Your interpretation of Catholic teaching is flawed. No Catholic teaching states that there is any mediator between God and man other than Jesus.
As a Catholic, I read my bible every day.....and I read it in context.
Call Him Yeshua, call him the Christ, call Him Yahusha or Yahuwah. It is insignificant. What is significant is that you know Him and follow where He leads you.
When the letter "j" did or didn't come about is irrelevant to the worship of Jesus.
there is no mediator between man and God..only through Jesus.bible says this.type it into google for the scripture then check ur bible.evthing catholics do disobey Gods laws.sabbath isn't sunday it's saturday keep this day holy.thy shalt not make unto any graven image. statues or pictures ect.. a man with long hair is a disgrace bible says.therefore jesus didnt have long hair.we also dont no wat he looks like.thats mans image.
@betruetoyou2345 Sabbath is the Lord's day it IS SUNDAY. Study early Church History such as the Didache the early Christians ALWAYS worshiped on the LORD'S DAY which is SUNDAY. JESUS HIMSELF instituted the Sacrament of Confession(Reconciliation) and I can show you with Jesus' own words in the Bible, Catholics believe in obeying the Son of God's words not just saying "Lord, Lord"(Matthew 7:21)
Why is it you have to battle fellow Christians?Catholics are Christian. Protestants are Christian too sorry if that upsets you. So why is it that you have to say Catholics are wrong? If this is the case like no one in Europe would be in heaven for about 1000 years or more until Martin Luther founded Protestantism.... Sorry their is no way that I believe that being Protestant is the only way to heaven. Just to ridiculous for me to believe.
Why are you people arguing with @calvingmail, he is clearly being decieved by the Father of all lies!! Christ said told that if the world hates you remember it hated me first. We need to pray for this man that he may repent and recieve the Lords Mercy. Sancta Maria Ora Pro Nobis
Any satanic practice of the Catholic church...still remember those dirty priests scolding me for not attending confessions...thinking they are Gods on Earth.
@calvingmail you are still spreading gossip....show us the proof of satanic practice. We are all waiting to see YOUR proof. I wonder what other Christians will think of your example here?
I like how Confession is in the Bible. God gives them the power in the Bible, yet Protestants still reject it, cause they're like you... "Those mean priests were so mean to me! They told me what to do, I do whatever I want!" That's what I feel like alot of Protestants are like... This is a scary thing I don't like... Maybe... Maybe there's another way, yeah! There's another way! A better way that makes me feel more confortable with myself! =D Fail...
God gives no such power and absolutely not to paedophile priests of the Catholic church....Catholics like to say "Hey Jesus said that and he was actually talking about us"..EPIC FAIL.....and SATANIC!
@calvingmail more babble from a protestant....Since the bible states in several places we need to confess our sins to one another, and Jesus says to those who were to spread the Gospel, that "whos sin you shall forgive is forgiven them..." is clear to all. Jesus never said whos sin you ASK to be forgiven, I will forgive them. Again, we follow the Scripture... We BELIEVE that God forgives sin, we just do it the way Jesus said to.
Sounds to me like you just have your own personal issues with the Catholic church and actually don't know what you're talking about... Anyone who uses "paedophiles" as a argument against the church is a EPIC FAIL... Because it just proves how rediculous and uneducated you are on the subject...
Plz ask your heart and go back to the beginning...Such a putrid history the church has...Killings, tortures, burning people alive as heretics...and this continued well into the 20th century. Can such a blood thirsty church represent Christ..They have twisted the words of the bible to deceive people. See for yourself..such opulence and wealth...muttering mumbo jumbo prayers and keeping to themselves...Do you deny the evil and crimes of the Catholic church? Ask urself...
@calvingmail, if you think we have twisted the words of the bible, please present your evidence... Mumbo jumbo prayers? You really are out of touch aren't you? Please present your proof....We're waiting. So far you couldn't answer any of my questions....Which makes me believe you believe in gossip, and the spreading of lies and gossip is very unChrist like....
I have answered you a lot..but you chose to ignore..Please answer me about the horrible inquisition and burning of "heretics" by the great Catholic church...Please am interested to know what is your take on it.
It is interesting that you take a very short period in history and turn it into the greatest focus.
Tell me, what was the world in general like in antiquity? Was it violent?
I am curious if you are aware of the horrible tourture and murder of heretics by the Puritans and Anabaptists? I am curious if you are aware of the torture and murder of African Americans in the Southern USA for years by white Protestants?
I am not a protestant...And you cannot justify one crime with another....Surely the church of Jesus Christ cannot justify its horror by comparing it with acts of horror by others especially "heretic" protestants...Come on...you can do better than this....And its not a short period of history...
This is not about Catholic or Protestant..Its how about these people have totally deviated from the original faith. There is no Jesus in Catholicism...at the least the Jesus of the bible.
@calvingmail You are a believer in "Jesus Christ" but how about his words? How about when Jesus says ONLY to his Apostles that he is sending them AS THE FATHER SENT JESUS and that they have the POWER to forgive FORGIVE SINS. Do you believe these words of Jesus?
The crimes of the Catholic church are no better than the crimes of the Protestant church LOL You cannot blame the Catholic church for ANY crimes. The Catholic church is not evil, human beings withen EVERY Christian (Catholic or not) or even human beings withen any human organization EVER have had crimes and evil withen it. The Catholic church is full of human beings, this means it's full of sinners! Like EVERYONE IS! BUT since it's THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! It's a big deal right... You fail...
Your attitude is typical of the Catholic church...when accused of genuine crimes, point to someone else doing it and say, "well if they can..so can we"...you guys are blind and ignorant. Too afraid to question and see your own relgion from a neutral poijt of view. If you folks believed the real Jesus, you would not partake of the harlot(Catholic hurch)'s sins.
Don't talk to me like I'm a criminal you punk... The catholic church has done nothing wrong, only people withen the church have! Stop acting like you're a perfect human being. Look at Protestant history and you'll see no one is perfect... It was not the churches teachings, as NOTHING in the Catechism teaches anything but the LOVE and KINDNESS of Jesus. But you wouldn't know that, you didn't spend 9 years of your life learning it like I have. What you think you know, is just dumb... =P
Wow typical of a Catholic....Calling names like your "holy father" the pope whose fav word is heretic. Nobody is perfect except Jesus Christ. The "virgin" mary is another sinner dead and buried. I spent a year for catechism to get the first holy(unholy) communion and something called confirmation. Not ur fault u sucked at studying though.. 9 years is bad. The church is full of thugs who represent the church. No use to say that the church is innocent.
@calvingmail I'm still waiting for your proof....whats the matter, you don't have any? Everyone here reading, wants to see your proof, otherwise, you are becoming a gossip...
@calvingmail In 1844 in Philadelphia, the "city of brotherly love," Protestants besieged Catholic neighborhoods with cannon fire and pistols, and also set houses aflame, because the Catholics had protested the use of the Protestant's King James Bible in public schools. Martial law was declared, and it took two thousand federal troops to quell the rioting; eighteen people were killed and scores more were
injured. Michael Feldberg, The Philadelphia Riots of 1844: A Study of Ethnic Conflicts
Not to mention the Protestants are responsible for killing THOUSANDS of Native Americans, Hawaiians, other Pacific island groups, Africans, Asians and any other country or human society the British empire took over in the name of God... So don't act like Protestants are these clean of sin angels from God... We're all human beings... In fact Catholics AND PROTESTANTS had a HUGE war against one another, a ONE HUNDRED year war, of Christian VS Christian... ALL human groups fail at some point
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Breath = A New Creation, like God breathed life into Adam, therefore Confess= A New Creation.
Jesuit Oath, US Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 66-43354
You have been taught to insidiously plant the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces and states that were at peace, and incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace.
@haansgruber the congressional record, does not authenticate the "Oath" but rather refers to it consistantly as "purported" and "alleged" to be a Knights of Columbus Oath. So what we have is a document anonymously circulated during a heated election campaign. Both sides disavowed its authenticity. All in all, no sane person could conclude that this constitutes any sort of "authentication" of this document by Congress, which is exactly what anti-catholics do. I refer to this as gossip....
@haansgruber, There is no such thing as the Extreme Oath of Induction. This is a myth perpetuated by extremely anti-Catholic groups for more than 150 years. When a Jesuit professes his vows, he promises chastity, poverty, and obedience to his superiors, including the Holy Father. You will find the vow printed in the Constitutions of the Society of Jesus, a text you can obtain through the Institute of Jesuit Sources in St. Louis, Mo.
except for the fact that a catholic priest albert rivero revealed the loyola's and the jesuit involvement with very specific details from the inside. one can hardly refer to that as gossip.
Christmas was created to tear down the Pagan holidays celebrated and to bring glory to God.
If you study Constantine, you will note that he did not have as much of an influence in the West as he did in the East, and he is not the creator of doctrines and practices.
Real history gives you the facts. History obtained from Anti-Catholic sources is a joke to the highest level.
@haansgruber Christmas: 1) Zechariah, who was priest of the division Abijah(Luke 1:5), was serving in the temple during the 8th course of the year, holding to Jewish tradition as to when classes of priests served in the temple.(1 Chronicles 24:1-19)
2) Zechariah was serving in the temple between Oct 2-9, as each of the 24 classes of priests serves 2 one week sessions.(1 Chronicles 9:25) The Jewish calendar begins in spring..cont..
@haansgruber 3) So we know when Zechariah the father of John the baptist was serving in the temple, but how does this help us?...Well we see that when Zechariah is in the temple, “when he was serving as a priest in his divisions term”(Luke 1:8), an angel of the LORD appears to him saying, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John” We also see that shortly after Zechariah ministry is completed(Oct 9th)
@haansgruber 3)..cont..“Elizabeth conceives”(Luke 1 23-24). Well give the shortly after.. lets say... just for fun..15 days, making it October 24th. Elizabeth then goes into seclusion for 5 months November, December, January, February, March.
4) On the sixth month,(which would start on March 25th in our presupposes of the shortly after) “The angel Gabriel was sent from GOD to a town of Galilee.”
@haansgruber 4) ..cont..So we see Mary conceiving Jesus on or around the 25th of March. Let us calculate that with the normal(not to say that the birth of Jesus was anything normal) maturation process, which usually takes 9 months. So from March, to the first month April, the second month June,... all the way to the ninth month which would be December...humm say isn't that when we celebrate today???
To take sides with the combatants and to act secretly in concert with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but, openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means.
"... the Pope of Rome, as the head of the Papal Government, claims absolute sovereignty and supremacy over all the governments of the earth"
Mary is a filthy whore, and if I could I would get a whole heap of fetuses, crucify her on a cross but this time backwards, and kick the fetuses up into her calloused dry-rot vagina while Cher sings "if I could turn back time". Anyone with me??
There's no better feeling than after Confession! Remember April 18th is Reconciliation Day! I actually made a video to encourage people to participate in the sacrament of reconciliation on that day, please check it out! its called "let your angel guide you" i think youre gonna like it =)
In The Name of God The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
31- They take their anchorites, their priests and the Christ, son of Mary, as Lords instead of God. Yet they were all commanded to worship only one God. There is no god except He. Glory to Him, from having the partners they associate.
*Its HERESY to equate God to creation as H2o *Trinity is man-made/has NO basis in Scripture *God is ONE [Exod20:3, Mrk12:29, Quran2:163] *God is NOT man/son of [Num23:19] and NEVER seen [Exod33:20] *Christ is created by a Word of God just as Adam or Universe "Let there BE..." [Gen ch1,2] *God does NOT need blood sacrifice [Hos6:6] *you are NOT born with original sin [Ezek18:20] *Salvation is: Surrender to God [ISLAM] and His MERCY.
Is any willing to surrender to GOD [Muslim] now and be saved?
Jésus, le soir de Pâques, dit à ses apôtres : "Allez, ceux à qui vous remettrez leurs péchés, ils seront remis; ceux à qui vous retiendrez leurs péchés, ils leur seront maintenus..." Si on s'appuie sur la Bible, il faut tout lire, pas seulement ce qui plaît !
ALL CHURCHES are under the rule of satan at this time; 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2, among many other verses throughout the King James Bible. Remember God did not always have and use churches; first He used individuals like Noah and Moses, then it went to the nation of Israel, then it went to the churches in 33AD until 1988, when the church age ended. God is done with ALL CHURCHES, I REPEAT, ALL CHURCHES NOW RULED BY SATAN BY GOD'S PLAN. You can find all this in a King James Bible.
Confession for my sins is directed to Jesus Christ and through Him. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to go to a particular man (priest) to have my sins purged and forgiven. The Bible makes it clear that there is one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. No priest, no saint, and no Mary is neccessary. There is no co-redeemer and no one can take place of Christ. Anything else is only conterfeit and not God directed.
@figgytwo1 - "Nowhere in Scripture are we told to go to a particular man (priest) to have my sins purged and forgiven." -
Perfect. Because Catholics don't believe a priests "purges" sin. Also, the preist does not forgive. It is only God who forgives in sacramental confession.
Maybe you should pick up a Catechism instead of making an ass out of yourself?
@TenderTrap86 I doesn't say not to, either. And the leaders in the Church made the rule, whatever they bind on earth is bound in heaven, so we're stuck, buddy. Anyway, it's a great grace. Don't knock it 'til you try it, though, it requires a great deal of humility, which may be an obstacle for Protestant types.
Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to his apostles here on earth and whoever they also transfer the authority to. They also have the authority to NOT forgive. Therefore, if you are not asking God's forgiveness through a priest who received authority from an apostle, there is no valid forgiveness if I reject the authority. Otherwise, why would Jesus have established this sacrament? Jesus Christ be praised, Forever!
Jesus respected authority of his Father, our Father... Jesus understood and supported the "transfer of authority"from the Father to himself Because he understood this, Jesus was able to transfer the authority and power to forgive sin to the apostles... and he did. If you reject this authority transfer, I challenge you to reject authority the next time you see police lights behind you and hear a voice say, "Stop".
Catholicism is an evil cult that has institutionalized child rape and promotes poverty in African countries by lying about birth control, all tax-exempt!
Atheists, it's time to take a proactive stance against the last refuge of human savagery!
@lakayna I am sorry that praying the rosary did not bring you closer to God. It only meant you did not pray the rosary by heart. By grace alone. Being saved by grace alone (Sola Gratia) is a Lutheran lunacy. It is fom the devil. The bible never said the word alone.
@tagabohol i know i already response to you bro. but just to be clear and for the rest of our readers out there. whats is important to God is your salvation by GRACE . rituals is man made, idols are man made. thats why Jesus clean up the temple & destroy all that he could . Remember the story PLS. its not ONLY that they were gambling in front of the temple but that they were BUYING THERE OFFERINGS TO GOD. . this was never taught to us & how important this FACTOR IS GOD BLESS all readers
@lakayna You are pointing this: Remember the story PLS. its not ONLY that they were gambling in front of the temple but that they were BUYING THERE OFFERINGS TO GOD. Hahahaha. Anong punto mo nagbebentahan ba kami ng alay sa loob ng simbahan namin? hehehehe. Kung pag-aalay ang pinupuntirya mo di ba nga si Kristo at ang mga magulang nya ay sumusunod sa jewish ritual of offering. Kaya nga theres the presentation at the temple. Anong masama to buy an offer? Kung bibili ka ng prutas para ioffer? hehe
@lakayna Ang mga sinasabi mo sa mga mambabasa about SALVATION by grace ALONE patunayan mo kasi wala sa bibliya at IEXPLAIN MO RIN YUNG MGA VERSE SA BIBLIYA NA NAGSASABING WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY OUR GOOD WORKS.
@lakayna Hahahaha. You have set limits to God's law by adding the word ONLY in the bible when there is no such. Even a child knows you do not add or subtract what is written. When it says we are saved by grace, you have to take it in its full implication. Papano ba gumagana ang grasya ng Diyos sa atin? Gagana ba ito kung di nakikita ng Diyos ang pananampalataya natin sa ating mga buhay? Kung sinsasabi lang natin na nananampalataya tau tapos iba naman ang nakikita sa ating mga gawa?
@lakayna You are attacking the rosary as our prayer. Ang mga prayers na Our Father, Hail, Mary and Glory Be hindi ba biblical? Yung sinasabi mong mga OBVIOUS na turo ang wala. Hahahaha. OBVIOUS talaga na wala ang we are saved by grace ALONE. Ngayon ang sinasabing we are saved by grace and not by works ang ibig sabihin nun pag wala kang pananampalataya ang mga gawang mabuti mo ay wala rin. Kaya nga ang Katoliko naniniwala kami na ang faith at works should go hand in hand sa grasya ng Panginoon
@lakayna ANG SALITANG ROSARY AY GALING SA SALITANG LATIN NA 'ROSARUM' NA ANG IBIG SABIHIN AY FLOWER OF ROSES: Ecclesiasticus [Sirach] 50:6-8 "quasi stella matutina in medio nebulae et quasi luna plena in diebus suis lucet et quasi sol refulgens sic ille effulsit in templo Dei quasi arcus effulgens in nebulam gloriae et quasi flos ROSARUM in diebus veris quasi lilia quae sunt in transitu aquae et quasi tus redolens in diebus aestatis"
@tagabohol 1. Sola Gratia as you are understanding it ain't Lutheran. It's a result of the radical reformation--which winds up turning the soul in upon itself for assurance that one is indeed saved, rather than Christ extra nos. 2. Listen to the lections on the first Sunday in Lent. Christ Himself says, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Nothing there about our life depending upon anything *we* do, but purely upon His Word.
@DRM2193 Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Does this verse say any negation about the value of good works? No it does not. It contrasts the physical bread that we eat and the spiritual bread which is the Eucharist. The word of God does not say we live by faith alone or by grace alone otherwise Christ would not teach the Beatitudes would he?
Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God is Christ Himself. I agree that there is a Eucharistic undertone to what He said there. But what is the Word doing in the first place? In the beginning was the Word...without Him nothing was made/created that has been made. God Father, Son, HS creates--creates people (and things) other than Himself to receive His Love. But *everything* is initiated by Him. Thus, all my good works, even my faith, begin with Him--"New Creation".
@DRM2193 Christ would not underscore how we should be merciful and compassionate and to love our neighbors, even our enemies. Are these not concrete actions to be undertaken? Are these just an act of trusting God? When God said we trust in his mercy and grace it compels us to be merciful to our neighbors as well, thus our own actions. To him who gives forgiveness, he will also be forgiven. To him who shows mercy, mercy will be shown. The parable of the money lender.
@tagabohol They are *precisely* actions which *flow* from trusting God. that is, they are *fruits* of the Life of Christ given to us by grace--that is, freely, the undeserved (utterly) favor of God. First comes the life of the tree, then comes--as a necessary result, certainly--the fruits. It is a caricature of Lutheranism to say that we preach against good works. They are necessary--results, not necessary *causes* of salvation/forgiveness.
@DRM2193 Whoever said the grace of God is not free? No. We Catholics are not saying that. We do not deserve the grace of God but it is still given to us. We do not do penance and prayers and good works to "gain" God's grace. The operative word is not gain but rather implore God's mercy and for God's mercy to work on us.
@tagabohol,brother,we are saved by grace of God through faith in Christ,that's the Word of God.Before we can be saved or enter the Kingdom of God,we need to believe Jesus that is why it is called faith.Faith is a requisite entering body of Christ,then you need not worry...Christ, who lives in us the moment we believe Him,will leads & guides us to do good works.Good works as a result of salvation to sustain or abide in the tree who is Christ.
@tagabohol Yes. You illustrate the difference between us quite well. Gratia infusa is what you mean when you say "grace". God infuses us with a "gift" that we might be able to do good works ("allowing" or "not refusing" to bear good fruit, to use our tree analogy) which in some way then merits salvation, if not even forgiveness. Grace as I use the word means the *external* favor of God--he looks upon me and declares me righteous (and therefore "saved") for Christ's sake...
@tagabohol And then, *because* He has already declared it to be so ("justification"--"objective", as we Lutherans say), His Word (always creating) I simply trust that it's true. And all this *before* I have begged Him for it, or *done* anything at all. Faith saves precisely in its *passivity*. It certainly does not *remain* passive. Faith, because it trusts that "He who spared not His only Son, but gave Him up for us all, how shall He not, along with Him, freely give us all things?" *acts*..
@tagabohol ...out of that trust, in obedience to Him, which means love of neighbor (love as *our Father* loves my neighbor--that is, not as I make up in my still-sin-stained mind what that "love" might be). God's favor, spoken to me by His called and ordained servant (pastor/priest/bishop) performs the Good Work *on* me, and then, *in* me, that He might work Good for my neighbor, *through* me in my various vocations.
Thanks, btw, for your patience in this conversation. I'm listening, too.
@DRM2193 God infuses us with a "gift" that we might be able to do good works ("allowing" or "not refusing" to bear good fruit, to use our tree analogy) which in some way then merits salvation, if not even forgiveness. Thank you for this point. It reinforces the biblical teaching that man is justified for his good works. That parable of talents. To whom much is given much is also required. Therefore we are compelled to do good works, even do things that are against our own will...
@tagabohol I think you misunderstood. I'm simply stating *your* understanding of "grace." You are depending upon James entirely. You need to put James and Romans together. And Galatians. The Promise--the Word of Grace, came before the covenant of obedience. Paul makes that *explicit* when he talks about Abraham. "He believed God and [God] credited/accounted/imputed it to him as righteousness." That's justification, *before* *any* good works. Romans 4 makes it rather explicit, too.
@DRM2193 if it meant following the will of God. Doing good works doesn't just flow naturally from good people. No. There are times when the most honest of intentions do not suffice, we have to follow God's will even if it meant 'suffering'. Job sought to do what is God's will even if God was silent in these instances. Even if he no longer understood what was happening to him. That was not just faith, God sustained him.
@tagabohol Actually, I (sorta) disagree with you regarding good works "flowing naturally". The "new man", "hidden with Christ in God," (Colossians) does indeed do good works "by nature" precisely because he is a "new creation." "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me." (More to come...)
@tagabohol To be sure, I still live with my "old Adam" who hates God and has no desire at all to do His will. So what is *seen* is the struggle and the lack of understanding of what the life of Christ actually looks like in me. Nevertheless, all this is *consequence* of the fact that I am *already* assured that I stand as completely righteous, without any regard for how I subsequently struggle well or poorly to exhibit the life of Christ in me, simply because the Father counts Christ to me.
@DRM2193 If you have "faith" that can move mountains but have not love all is for naught. By love here it means charity, good actions towards your neighbor. Mere faith does not suffice to be considered righteous. Abraham proved his faith to God by offering to sacrifice his son, thats how God knew how faithful he was."Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. " The belief shown here is not just mere faith but a kind of faith that was proven through his actions.
@DRM2193 God taught us to be generous and merciful but Jesus in the New Testament demands a different kind of generosity, the kind that is not comfortable, the kind that hurts. The widow giving her last penny. It is not just the intention to share but to share the best of us, not just money but time and stuff we can share to others.
@tagabohol I agree. "Greater love has no man than this....." That is *1st* Christ for us. But then it also applies to *our* lives *in Him*--as those baptized into His death and resurrection. So we begin to see, even as Christians, just how miserably sinful we are. And this is good, because it drives us more and more to rely entirely upon God's pronouncement that, in spite of our sinfulness, we are, for Jesus' sake, His beloved sons, in whom He is well-pleased. We live from the Font.
@tagabohol Again, thanks greatly for this conversation. I can't help thinking that this is precisely what needs to happen between Lutherans and Roman Catholics. (And throw in the E Orthodox, too. And, heck, why not? The various Calvinist branches. Call me a dreamer. :) ) Even if we end up not agreeing to the point where there is an *external* re-establishment of communion, still, we'd understand each other better, and all of us might learn something from God's Word.
@DRM2193 But yes indeed, we make no mistake when we said that even a person who did not do anything to merit salvation but acted in faith only like the thief hanging on the cross was shown mercy and therefore entered paradise. He suffered with Christ, and he understood his sufferings as something he deserved so that when he asked for God's mercy he was given complete forgiveness. His faith in God's mercy indeed saved him.
@DRM2193 I did consider the other verses that you mentioned but the way I understand it , is that man cannot claim merit of his salvation through following the law and doing good works only. In the same way that faith is dead if it is not manifested through actions. Those who were faithful to God like Abraham had been tested in their faith.
@DRM2193 In the end, the real merit is God's sacrifice : the blood of Jesus Christ. That Christ died on the cross for our sins. We Catholics believe that. I do not think we totally disagree with each other. But I think we Catholics are misunderstood on this. Our belief is salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ but we do not believe in FAITH alone simply because the bible does not teach this.
@DRM2193 The young man who had faith to follow Christ wholeheartedly and asked him how he could enter the kingdom of God. He was faithful to God's commandments and all, he loved God and had faith on him. Then Christ asked him to sell all his riches and give it to the poor. Christ then knew what his attachments were and tested him on this. Faith is often tested through actions, and it your failure to do God's will that will make you fall from God's plan for you.
@DRM2193 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." That's how God separates the goats from the sheep, the sheep does the will of the Father. The goats may have faith and may call God their Lord but because they do not feed the hungry or clothe the naked, their supposed "faith" is just for naught.
@DRM2193 Nevertheless, all this is *consequence* of the fact that I am *already* assured that I stand as completely righteous, without any regard for how I subsequently struggle well or poorly to exhibit the life of Christ in me, simply because the Father counts Christ to me. I strongly disagree with this statement. This is not biblical. The bible teaches that all your works are accounted to you when you are judged.
@DRM2193 Nevertheless, all this is *consequence* of the fact that I am *already* assured that I stand as completely righteous, without any regard for how I subsequently struggle well or poorly to exhibit the life of Christ in me, simply because the Father counts Christ to me. I strongly disagree with this statement. It is unbiblical. Christ's sacrifice is indeed enough for our salvation but you are also accounted for all your actions good or bad.
@DRM2193 To whom much is given much is required. That is taught in the bible. If all faithful are considered "equally and completely righteous" before God by believing in Jesus Christ why then would there be such requirement? Why then would Christ demand more from us? Why then would Christ ask us to take up our crosses if we do not regard it as important for our salvation?
@DRM2193 We are all sinful before God yes, but our degrees of sin are of different levels and circumstance and therefore of different weights and grievousness. So is our righteousness, I can never claim to be equally righteous compared to St. Joseph who was a just man as the bible declared . Hence he is also my model of Christian virtues ; the virtue of trust and obedience.
@DRM2193 Your analogy is of a tree that bears fruits as a result of Christian life. But remember there is also a parable of a tree that refuses to bear fruit and so the master is deciding whether to cut the tree or not.
@DRM2193, you're right brother.The faith referred to by Apostle Paul is true faith contrary to what James referred to as false faith.True faith is always accompanied by actions or belief on what God said.False faith and unbelief convey the same meaning.True faith always produces good works.We can be saved by faith alone in Christ (John 3:16).
@tagabohol "New Creation"--I do nothing to begin my existence in the first place. I also do not "re-create" myself.
What's ironic is that the Protestants who have the biggest problem with Roman Catholicism because of the sacraments and the "rituals" (ie, the Liturgy), and see in them "works righteousness", turn right around and add human works (decision theology, ecstatic conversion experiences *not* promised by God, etc.) back into the equation. Re James: I show you my faith *by* my works.
@DRM2193 God's grace and mercy cannot work in our lives if we do not allow it and by allowing it, it does not mean PASSIVE faith. It means active faith. Having heard God's words and Christs teachings, it should reflect in our lives.
@DRM2193 James 2 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
@DRM2193 The bible clarified it my friend. Faith and and good works go together. You cannot say you have faith if it is not evident in your good works. You cannot say you are saved by the grace of God and by trusting in him if that faith does not reflect in your life. That is a foolish man's excuse not to do good deeds.
@DRM2193 I'd say the Sola Gratia (by grace alone) doctrine nyo is not of Christ kasi yung sinabi mong verse at the way you interpret it ay hindi naman nagsasabi ng ganon. Parang sinasabi nyo na ang tao wag nang magsikap gawin ang mabuti kasi tutal naman sa grasya ng Panginoon tayoy ligtas na. You are teaching people not to be accountable for their actions. You are teaching people to be complacent the way you view salvation.
@tagabohol more: But the Sacraments are all about God's Word alone. That's what makes them so comforting. Jesus said, "If you forgive anyone their sins they are forgiven..." and so we know we are forgiven--not apart from His death and resurrection, but by the Absolution uniting us to it--same with Baptism, same with the Lord's Supper. To trust I am forgiven in Baptism is simply to trust in Jesus. Rest in Him. And then, with that load off my shoulders, I am free to live for my neighbor.
@lakayna You pastor told you confession is fake because that is how he understood it. The bible spoke many times about confession and your pastor don't understand them at all.
Is anyone in here who claims the title Roman Catholic not embarrassed by the utterly shallow "answers" that catholic apologists provide to you? Which one of you would tolerate this by a Protestant?
123WalshJack 1 week ago
Please show me where the Church Fathers taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary? Oh I forgot they didn't. Sorry I thought that Roman Catholics actually were critical in their thinking and how they arrive at conclusions. I didn't know that you blindly follow what Rome espouses. My mistake.
123WalshJack 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Sardonic today...quite charming.
I see just the opposite. When I was an Evangelical pastor, I found Catholic apologist to be very detailed.
The Assumption was articulated over time; the phraseology. The belief was there, and yes, we do do see the ECF speak of this, especially those in the East.
However, Assumption merely means to take. As a Christian, you do believe that the righteous dead are alive in heaven correct?
baldonebear 1 week ago
@baldonebear Really then why has every catholic apologist resort to ad-hominem when debating James White who wipes the floor with them every single time. As far as the assumption being "articulated over time" goes so was the book of mormon. Who cares it is was articulated. There were tons of heresies that were articulated over time. That proves absolutely nothing. .
123WalshJack 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 3
There comes a point when ad hominem is a problem for both parties.
I have seen the debates with White, and I have seen him be on top, and I have seen the Catholics be on top.
White is not innocent of employing ad hominem. However, that is one example only.
baldonebear 1 week ago
@baldonebear Those in Heaven live with Christ. But they died and passed into Heaven. They can't hear us and there is nothing in the Bible that indicates that at all. I understand the argument that you ask them to pray for you. The saints in heaven are worshipping God day and night and are not listening to our petty little problems.
123WalshJack 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 4
Are you sure that saints in heaven can not hear us? Are you sure they are not aware of our prayers?
Rev 5:8, 8:3-4
baldonebear 1 week ago
@baldonebear No I am not just like I am not sure that there are not Martians that live in New York, but that is not how you conduct logic. You look for evidence then draw you conclusions. In the case of the saints, there is nothing in the bible that states that the saints hear your prayers, just like there is nothing in the paper about Martians living in New York.
123WalshJack 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 2
You have very little dialogue with me. Please do not attempt to tell me how I do anything.
I research all aspects before I draw a conclusion. I do not find a lone quote on the internet and simply use it in an attempt to prove a point.
I was a a bible college instructor and Protestant pastor. I have spent many years in school and research.
Honestly, we have not had a deep dialogue on any particular doctrinal issue
baldonebear 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 3
I ask you to comment on the verses I posted: Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4
Btw, lame?
The adjective "Roman" was not used until after the 11th century.
The term Catholic was used in the ECF texts to speak of the Church.
Let's look at a few, shall we? We can exhaust them, and I would ask that you tell me if what they say reflects your Protestant community?
baldonebear 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 4
"Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by the one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Ignatius of Antioch, AD 107
baldonebear 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 5
"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished."
Martyrdom of Polycarp, AD 155
baldonebear 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 6
Nor does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this, a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said."
Irenaeus, AD 180
3 to start.
baldonebear 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 2
I simply love your ideas that Catholic apologists are just about shouting down their opponent. That is good..thank you for the smile.
The Ante Nicene Fathers were not Catholic????? Really????
Since their writings spill over with Catholic teaching, and their use of the adjective Catholic is common...what would they be? Protestant?
I Just realized you are a non-theist.
baldonebear 1 week ago
@baldonebear Read my previous comments. The term "catholic" doesn't equal "Roman Catholic." The word catholic simply meant universal and bares no resemblence to today's modern roman catholic church. The fact that they used the term "catholic" doesn't amount to a hill of beans with regards to today's roman catholic church.
123WalshJack 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 1
Concerning the term "catholic" that is where you are in error.
Universal is a modern term, and it is correct, but literally it means from the same.
The term was first used to describe the unity of all the local church's, a quickly became the term used to describe the true church from the heretics.
The first writing, round 75 years after Christ, of the word catholic, was by Ignatius of Antioch. His writings are very catholic.
baldonebear 1 week ago
@baldonebear Gosh this is one of the lamest arguments that I have ever encountered. So are you saying that if the roman catholic church uses the word "hammer" and the church fathers did too, that means that they are roman catholic? How absurd your logic or lack thereof.
123WalshJack 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 2
What you will not find in the writings of Ante Nicene fathers, is a Protestant view.
Thus, it is the same CC today.
The term catholic still means universal. It is the Protestant who changes the meaning of the adjective.
Read Protestant historians Bruce Shelley and JND Kelly, who attest to everything that I am saying. They are both credible and respected.
baldonebear 1 week ago
@baldonebear YOu are not refuting anything that I have said. YOu are simply telling me what you believe. I find it hilairious when catholics use JND Kelly and take him so far out of context, just like they try and do the same with Augustine.
123WalshJack 1 week ago
@123WalshJack
Part 1
I have not taken JND Kelley out of context. I know he was not Catholic, but I also know exactly what he stated in several of his texts.
I know how to research. I used to teach in a bible college, so I am not a novice.
Augustine was Catholic. I find it hard to believe that you have read his texts with your comment.
Btw, my intention was not to refute you. What I posted is factual, and ad hominem is an issue for many.
baldonebear 1 week ago
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Really!?! Watch this. Type "Catholic Bible vs. Protestant Bible" in the search window of youtube and watch the first video that comes up in its completeness.
MrSurfingdreamer 1 month ago
Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus NO priest can give absolution.follow bible or man. Man can only serve ONE master..God or mannon. read your bibles and ask holy spirit to give you an understanding the spirit is ur helper and ur guide NOt man made religion.Yahushua and Yahuwah! jesus is a transliterated name for the saviors name is not jesus.letter j didnt come about til 500 yr ago.hebrew Yahushua to Greek iesus to english jesus.
betruetoyou2345 1 month ago
@betruetoyou2345
part 2
Yahushua is also a transliteration.
The NT was written in Greek...are you aware of that?
Now, the letter J...I think you are posting on items that you know very little about.
Are you also aware that in Christ we are no longer under the Law?
baldonebear 1 month ago
@baldonebear Those in Christ are no longer under the Law of death, but they are not above ALL LAW, NO NO ONE IS ABOVE ALL LAW, NOT EVEN CHRIST, CHRIST HIMSELF IS UNDER THE LAW OF LOVE, THE FATHER HIMSELF IS UNDER THE LAW OF MERCY, THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF IS UNDER THE LAW OF LIBERTY.
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
@LifeLibertyLove
Oh, I agree 100% I am referring to the OT Law; the Mosaic law.
baldonebear 1 month ago
@baldonebear I Highly HIGHLY suggest that you read the Epistle of Barnabas.
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
@baldonebear The 10 commandments Apply and have always Applied, they Applied Before they were written and after they were written. In fact even the Law applies, but the law is spiritual, the Mosaic law that does NOT APPLY is the CARNAL interpretation of the Law. Read the Epistle of Barnabas for a deeper understanding of this grand concept Christianity has lost in this past century.
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
@LifeLibertyLove
The ten commandments, the decalogue formed the foundation of the 613 laws.
They apply only in the the sense that we have duties towards God an duties towards others...that is how the decalogue bifurcates.
Jesus spoke of this when he said to Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Thus, I do not see where your arrive at the conclusion that it is the carnal interpretation that does not apply?
Barnabas may be a good read, but it is not authoritative.
baldonebear 1 month ago
@baldonebear The 613 laws idea is a Jewish myth derived Hundreds of years after Christ, to read a REAL Christian interpretation of this "mythical 613 laws" please read "the Epistle of Barnabas". You say Barnabas is "not authoritative", I venture to say if Barnabas has no authority than neither does any early Christian source, Barnabas being one of the earliest.
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
@LifeLibertyLove
You misunderstood...Barnabas is not considered an authority in the Church, though it may have some good points.
There were 613 laws...this is a Jewish historical reality.
baldonebear 1 month ago
@baldonebear Barnabas is considered Sacred Tradition in the Church and therefore has impacted the decisions of the Church and does have authority in the Church. "Jewish historical reality" is not a reality, the Jews said Jesus taught his apostles to worship rocks, is this a "Jewish historical reality"?
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
@LifeLibertyLove
Um..no, it is not considered Sacred Tradition, but it was read with authority at certain points, and by certain groups, but not by all. it does not, for example, hole the same level as the letters of Clement.
I am not sure how much you know about Judaism, but it would appear, not much. To say that it is not reality is truly ignorance.
Not only as a Protestant, but as a Catholic what I have stated about 613 laws is accurate.
baldonebear 1 month ago
@LifeLibertyLove
part 2
Even in my small group bible study this summer, as we studied the book of Exodus, this reality was spoken of.
baldonebear 1 month ago
@baldonebear St. Jerome himself attests to Apostolic Authorship to the Epistle of Barnabas. If not for inspiration sake then for historical sake see how the early Christians interpreted the Jewish Law, which is not Jewish at all but Spiritual, Saint Paul says the Law is Spiritual. To say "613 laws" were given to the Jews and not the rest of the world that is not "spiritual" that is interpreting it carnally. For example do not eat pig NEVER meant a prohibition of pork products.
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
@LifeLibertyLove
Part 2
Barnabas does give us insights into the thought of the time, and is a good reference.
The point that I am trying to make is that through Christ, we under the Law of grace.
baldonebear 1 month ago
@LifeLibertyLove
We are to follow His teachings and are not bound under the law of the OT. It is not necessary, as the New Testament has fulfilled the Old. Read, read, read. Read the whole and not the parts.
hiswife2002 1 month ago
@hiswife2002 Jesus said "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." let me ask you a question, if Jesus fulfilled the law of the OT and the law of the OT we are not bound under, why did St. Paul write "the Law is Spiritual"? And to be spiritually minded is life?
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
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@LifeLibertyLove Gal. 2:16-"know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.So we too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. "
Gal.3:10-"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
christiskingofall 1 month ago
@LifeLibertyLove
I did not say we are not bound by His law...I said we are not bound by the law as found in the Old Testament, as that era is closed. Look to the New Testament if you want to know what has replaced it.
hiswife2002 1 month ago
@betruetoyou2345
Your interpretation of Catholic teaching is flawed. No Catholic teaching states that there is any mediator between God and man other than Jesus.
As a Catholic, I read my bible every day.....and I read it in context.
Call Him Yeshua, call him the Christ, call Him Yahusha or Yahuwah. It is insignificant. What is significant is that you know Him and follow where He leads you.
When the letter "j" did or didn't come about is irrelevant to the worship of Jesus.
hiswife2002 1 month ago
there is no mediator between man and God..only through Jesus.bible says this.type it into google for the scripture then check ur bible.evthing catholics do disobey Gods laws.sabbath isn't sunday it's saturday keep this day holy.thy shalt not make unto any graven image. statues or pictures ect.. a man with long hair is a disgrace bible says.therefore jesus didnt have long hair.we also dont no wat he looks like.thats mans image.
betruetoyou2345 1 month ago
@betruetoyou2345
1. Catholics believe that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. You have received some error in what you have been taught about the CC.
2. As Christians, we are people of the resurrection, not the sabbath. Christians from the time after Christ met on Sunday, the first day of the week.
3. You shall not make graven images to worship or serve them. That is actually the context..
baldonebear 1 month ago
@betruetoyou2345 Sabbath is the Lord's day it IS SUNDAY. Study early Church History such as the Didache the early Christians ALWAYS worshiped on the LORD'S DAY which is SUNDAY. JESUS HIMSELF instituted the Sacrament of Confession(Reconciliation) and I can show you with Jesus' own words in the Bible, Catholics believe in obeying the Son of God's words not just saying "Lord, Lord"(Matthew 7:21)
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
Why is it you have to battle fellow Christians?Catholics are Christian. Protestants are Christian too sorry if that upsets you. So why is it that you have to say Catholics are wrong? If this is the case like no one in Europe would be in heaven for about 1000 years or more until Martin Luther founded Protestantism.... Sorry their is no way that I believe that being Protestant is the only way to heaven. Just to ridiculous for me to believe.
Marv23able 1 month ago
comment pending approval right?
yourallbrainwashed 2 months ago
Why are you people arguing with @calvingmail, he is clearly being decieved by the Father of all lies!! Christ said told that if the world hates you remember it hated me first. We need to pray for this man that he may repent and recieve the Lords Mercy. Sancta Maria Ora Pro Nobis
nmiller731 2 months ago
Any satanic practice of the Catholic church...still remember those dirty priests scolding me for not attending confessions...thinking they are Gods on Earth.
calvingmail 4 months ago
@calvingmail you are still spreading gossip....show us the proof of satanic practice. We are all waiting to see YOUR proof. I wonder what other Christians will think of your example here?
stevesilvia 4 months ago
I like how Confession is in the Bible. God gives them the power in the Bible, yet Protestants still reject it, cause they're like you... "Those mean priests were so mean to me! They told me what to do, I do whatever I want!" That's what I feel like alot of Protestants are like... This is a scary thing I don't like... Maybe... Maybe there's another way, yeah! There's another way! A better way that makes me feel more confortable with myself! =D Fail...
ChamorruWarrior 4 months ago
@ChamorruWarrior
God gives no such power and absolutely not to paedophile priests of the Catholic church....Catholics like to say "Hey Jesus said that and he was actually talking about us"..EPIC FAIL.....and SATANIC!
calvingmail 4 months ago
@calvingmail more babble from a protestant....Since the bible states in several places we need to confess our sins to one another, and Jesus says to those who were to spread the Gospel, that "whos sin you shall forgive is forgiven them..." is clear to all. Jesus never said whos sin you ASK to be forgiven, I will forgive them. Again, we follow the Scripture... We BELIEVE that God forgives sin, we just do it the way Jesus said to.
stevesilvia 4 months ago
@stevesilvia
Im no protestant...but you catholics sure burned many of them alive.
calvingmail 4 months ago
Sounds to me like you just have your own personal issues with the Catholic church and actually don't know what you're talking about... Anyone who uses "paedophiles" as a argument against the church is a EPIC FAIL... Because it just proves how rediculous and uneducated you are on the subject...
ChamorruWarrior 4 months ago
@ChamorruWarrior
Plz ask your heart and go back to the beginning...Such a putrid history the church has...Killings, tortures, burning people alive as heretics...and this continued well into the 20th century. Can such a blood thirsty church represent Christ..They have twisted the words of the bible to deceive people. See for yourself..such opulence and wealth...muttering mumbo jumbo prayers and keeping to themselves...Do you deny the evil and crimes of the Catholic church? Ask urself...
calvingmail 4 months ago
@calvingmail, if you think we have twisted the words of the bible, please present your evidence... Mumbo jumbo prayers? You really are out of touch aren't you? Please present your proof....We're waiting. So far you couldn't answer any of my questions....Which makes me believe you believe in gossip, and the spreading of lies and gossip is very unChrist like....
stevesilvia 4 months ago
@stevesilvia
I have answered you a lot..but you chose to ignore..Please answer me about the horrible inquisition and burning of "heretics" by the great Catholic church...Please am interested to know what is your take on it.
calvingmail 4 months ago
@calvingmail
It is interesting that you take a very short period in history and turn it into the greatest focus.
Tell me, what was the world in general like in antiquity? Was it violent?
I am curious if you are aware of the horrible tourture and murder of heretics by the Puritans and Anabaptists? I am curious if you are aware of the torture and murder of African Americans in the Southern USA for years by white Protestants?
baldonebear 4 months ago
@baldonebear
I am not a protestant...And you cannot justify one crime with another....Surely the church of Jesus Christ cannot justify its horror by comparing it with acts of horror by others especially "heretic" protestants...Come on...you can do better than this....And its not a short period of history...
This is not about Catholic or Protestant..Its how about these people have totally deviated from the original faith. There is no Jesus in Catholicism...at the least the Jesus of the bible.
calvingmail 4 months ago
@calvingmail
I am not attempting to justify...I am merely providing the facts.
You did not answer my questions...your silence speaks volumes, and you got on Steve for not answering yours.
Compared with the 1968 years of the Church's existence...yes, it is very short.
Btw, if you are not a Protestant, what are you?
baldonebear 4 months ago
@baldonebear
So you mean only protestants question the church?
calvingmail 4 months ago
@calvingmail
2nd asking: If you are not Protestant, what are you?
baldonebear 4 months ago
@baldonebear
Technically a Catholic whose eyes have been opened. I am a believer in Jesus Christ.
calvingmail 4 months ago
@calvingmail
So ambiguous...what opened your eyes?
baldonebear 4 months ago
@calvingmail You are a believer in "Jesus Christ" but how about his words? How about when Jesus says ONLY to his Apostles that he is sending them AS THE FATHER SENT JESUS and that they have the POWER to forgive FORGIVE SINS. Do you believe these words of Jesus?
LifeLibertyLove 1 month ago
The crimes of the Catholic church are no better than the crimes of the Protestant church LOL You cannot blame the Catholic church for ANY crimes. The Catholic church is not evil, human beings withen EVERY Christian (Catholic or not) or even human beings withen any human organization EVER have had crimes and evil withen it. The Catholic church is full of human beings, this means it's full of sinners! Like EVERYONE IS! BUT since it's THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! It's a big deal right... You fail...
ChamorruWarrior 4 months ago
@ChamorruWarrior
Your attitude is typical of the Catholic church...when accused of genuine crimes, point to someone else doing it and say, "well if they can..so can we"...you guys are blind and ignorant. Too afraid to question and see your own relgion from a neutral poijt of view. If you folks believed the real Jesus, you would not partake of the harlot(Catholic hurch)'s sins.
calvingmail 4 months ago
Don't talk to me like I'm a criminal you punk... The catholic church has done nothing wrong, only people withen the church have! Stop acting like you're a perfect human being. Look at Protestant history and you'll see no one is perfect... It was not the churches teachings, as NOTHING in the Catechism teaches anything but the LOVE and KINDNESS of Jesus. But you wouldn't know that, you didn't spend 9 years of your life learning it like I have. What you think you know, is just dumb... =P
ChamorruWarrior 4 months ago
@ChamorruWarrior
Wow typical of a Catholic....Calling names like your "holy father" the pope whose fav word is heretic. Nobody is perfect except Jesus Christ. The "virgin" mary is another sinner dead and buried. I spent a year for catechism to get the first holy(unholy) communion and something called confirmation. Not ur fault u sucked at studying though.. 9 years is bad. The church is full of thugs who represent the church. No use to say that the church is innocent.
calvingmail 4 months ago
@calvingmail I'm still waiting for your proof....whats the matter, you don't have any? Everyone here reading, wants to see your proof, otherwise, you are becoming a gossip...
stevesilvia 4 months ago
@calvingmail In 1844 in Philadelphia, the "city of brotherly love," Protestants besieged Catholic neighborhoods with cannon fire and pistols, and also set houses aflame, because the Catholics had protested the use of the Protestant's King James Bible in public schools. Martial law was declared, and it took two thousand federal troops to quell the rioting; eighteen people were killed and scores more were
injured. Michael Feldberg, The Philadelphia Riots of 1844: A Study of Ethnic Conflicts
stevesilvia 4 months ago
Not to mention the Protestants are responsible for killing THOUSANDS of Native Americans, Hawaiians, other Pacific island groups, Africans, Asians and any other country or human society the British empire took over in the name of God... So don't act like Protestants are these clean of sin angels from God... We're all human beings... In fact Catholics AND PROTESTANTS had a HUGE war against one another, a ONE HUNDRED year war, of Christian VS Christian... ALL human groups fail at some point
ChamorruWarrior 4 months ago
Confession to other human beings is pointless, and unneccesary. We don't require a middleman. You may pray directly.
JeffersonDinedAlone 5 months ago
@JeffersonDinedAlone we recognize the need to confess our sins to God, that God forgives us our sins....We just do it the way Jesus said to do it...
stevesilvia 5 months ago
yer
tnucasisusej 9 months ago
John 20:21-23
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Breath = A New Creation, like God breathed life into Adam, therefore Confess= A New Creation.
teton99 9 months ago
Jesuit Oath, US Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 66-43354
You have been taught to insidiously plant the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces and states that were at peace, and incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace.
haansgruber 9 months ago
@haansgruber the congressional record, does not authenticate the "Oath" but rather refers to it consistantly as "purported" and "alleged" to be a Knights of Columbus Oath. So what we have is a document anonymously circulated during a heated election campaign. Both sides disavowed its authenticity. All in all, no sane person could conclude that this constitutes any sort of "authentication" of this document by Congress, which is exactly what anti-catholics do. I refer to this as gossip....
stevesilvia 9 months ago
@haansgruber, There is no such thing as the Extreme Oath of Induction. This is a myth perpetuated by extremely anti-Catholic groups for more than 150 years. When a Jesuit professes his vows, he promises chastity, poverty, and obedience to his superiors, including the Holy Father. You will find the vow printed in the Constitutions of the Society of Jesus, a text you can obtain through the Institute of Jesuit Sources in St. Louis, Mo.
stevesilvia 9 months ago
except for the fact that a catholic priest albert rivero revealed the loyola's and the jesuit involvement with very specific details from the inside. one can hardly refer to that as gossip.
peace,
haans :)
haansgruber 9 months ago
@haansgruber
Hahahaha. Alberto...you know, he was proven to be a fraud. He was charged with fraud in a few different places.
He was never a Priest.
baldonebear 9 months ago
Yes, and he made every roman catholic "so called" Christian holiday fall on a sun worship day too... I know
Ishtar, Christmas, etc.
Oh wait! That was constantine... never mind
peace :)
haansgruber 9 months ago
@haansgruber
You have not a clue. Ishtar is not a Sun goddess.
Christmas was created to tear down the Pagan holidays celebrated and to bring glory to God.
If you study Constantine, you will note that he did not have as much of an influence in the West as he did in the East, and he is not the creator of doctrines and practices.
Real history gives you the facts. History obtained from Anti-Catholic sources is a joke to the highest level.
Study before you post.
baldonebear 8 months ago
@haansgruber Christmas: 1) Zechariah, who was priest of the division Abijah(Luke 1:5), was serving in the temple during the 8th course of the year, holding to Jewish tradition as to when classes of priests served in the temple.(1 Chronicles 24:1-19)
2) Zechariah was serving in the temple between Oct 2-9, as each of the 24 classes of priests serves 2 one week sessions.(1 Chronicles 9:25) The Jewish calendar begins in spring..cont..
gtepp031387 5 months ago
@haansgruber 3) So we know when Zechariah the father of John the baptist was serving in the temple, but how does this help us?...Well we see that when Zechariah is in the temple, “when he was serving as a priest in his divisions term”(Luke 1:8), an angel of the LORD appears to him saying, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John” We also see that shortly after Zechariah ministry is completed(Oct 9th)
gtepp031387 5 months ago
@haansgruber 3)..cont..“Elizabeth conceives”(Luke 1 23-24). Well give the shortly after.. lets say... just for fun..15 days, making it October 24th. Elizabeth then goes into seclusion for 5 months November, December, January, February, March.
4) On the sixth month,(which would start on March 25th in our presupposes of the shortly after) “The angel Gabriel was sent from GOD to a town of Galilee.”
gtepp031387 5 months ago
@haansgruber 4) ..cont..So we see Mary conceiving Jesus on or around the 25th of March. Let us calculate that with the normal(not to say that the birth of Jesus was anything normal) maturation process, which usually takes 9 months. So from March, to the first month April, the second month June,... all the way to the ninth month which would be December...humm say isn't that when we celebrate today???
gtepp031387 5 months ago
To take sides with the combatants and to act secretly in concert with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but, openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means.
"... the Pope of Rome, as the head of the Papal Government, claims absolute sovereignty and supremacy over all the governments of the earth"
haansgruber 9 months ago
@baldonebear
I don't care. I was asking you to use scripture to defend the position. It doesn't matter if you're catholic or not.
You gave me a vague answer that would pretty much be the same as saying "the bible lol"
falkenjeff 9 months ago
@falkenjeff
Part 1
My answer was not intended to be vague, as I was placing the ball back in your court to actually answer my question.
If you are going to post against something, it would be good to actually know about it.
baldonebear 9 months ago
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Mary is a filthy whore, and if I could I would get a whole heap of fetuses, crucify her on a cross but this time backwards, and kick the fetuses up into her calloused dry-rot vagina while Cher sings "if I could turn back time". Anyone with me??
OrthodoxDarwinist 9 months ago
@baldonebear
Which specific verses? I'm not Catholic, I don't believe in confession to men.
falkenjeff 9 months ago
@falkenjeff
Ok, if you are not Catholic, and you can not answer the question...why post that which you admit you do not know anything about?
Let me ask it this way: What do you believe that WE believe about it?
baldonebear 9 months ago
@falkenjeff
Part 2
2 Cor 2:10...please read it.
Taking this from the KJV, Paul states: "for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ"
The Greek word for person is "prosopon", and the idea there is that Paul is representing Christ...he is not Christ, but is in the person of Christ.
As Christians we need to confess daily in prayer.
The Sacrament of Reconciliation is a very beautiful thing, and it is reserved for serious, deliberate sins that affect not only us, but others.
baldonebear 9 months ago
Is there a bible verse where an apostle forgives sins AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection?
falkenjeff 9 months ago
@falkenjeff
Yes...it Paul's letters.
Do you know what confession in the CC is all about; why it exists?
If so, please explain.
baldonebear 9 months ago
There's no better feeling than after Confession! Remember April 18th is Reconciliation Day! I actually made a video to encourage people to participate in the sacrament of reconciliation on that day, please check it out! its called "let your angel guide you" i think youre gonna like it =)
slimkatiex3 9 months ago
I'm going to go to confession after lent.
dkc2lover 9 months ago
In The Name of God The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
31- They take their anchorites, their priests and the Christ, son of Mary, as Lords instead of God. Yet they were all commanded to worship only one God. There is no god except He. Glory to Him, from having the partners they associate.
9-Repentance, 31
77705000000000000000 10 months ago
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*Its HERESY to equate God to creation as H2o *Trinity is man-made/has NO basis in Scripture *God is ONE [Exod20:3, Mrk12:29, Quran2:163] *God is NOT man/son of [Num23:19] and NEVER seen [Exod33:20] *Christ is created by a Word of God just as Adam or Universe "Let there BE..." [Gen ch1,2] *God does NOT need blood sacrifice [Hos6:6] *you are NOT born with original sin [Ezek18:20] *Salvation is: Surrender to God [ISLAM] and His MERCY.
Is any willing to surrender to GOD [Muslim] now and be saved?
robin4good 11 months ago
Jésus, le soir de Pâques, dit à ses apôtres : "Allez, ceux à qui vous remettrez leurs péchés, ils seront remis; ceux à qui vous retiendrez leurs péchés, ils leur seront maintenus..." Si on s'appuie sur la Bible, il faut tout lire, pas seulement ce qui plaît !
martialmax 11 months ago
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ALL CHURCHES are under the rule of satan at this time; 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2, among many other verses throughout the King James Bible. Remember God did not always have and use churches; first He used individuals like Noah and Moses, then it went to the nation of Israel, then it went to the churches in 33AD until 1988, when the church age ended. God is done with ALL CHURCHES, I REPEAT, ALL CHURCHES NOW RULED BY SATAN BY GOD'S PLAN. You can find all this in a King James Bible.
mrskarenkatz 11 months ago
Confession for my sins is directed to Jesus Christ and through Him. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to go to a particular man (priest) to have my sins purged and forgiven. The Bible makes it clear that there is one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. No priest, no saint, and no Mary is neccessary. There is no co-redeemer and no one can take place of Christ. Anything else is only conterfeit and not God directed.
figgytwo1 11 months ago
@figgytwo1 - "Nowhere in Scripture are we told to go to a particular man (priest) to have my sins purged and forgiven." -
Perfect. Because Catholics don't believe a priests "purges" sin. Also, the preist does not forgive. It is only God who forgives in sacramental confession.
Maybe you should pick up a Catechism instead of making an ass out of yourself?
TenderTrap86 11 months ago
@TenderTrap86 I doesn't say not to, either. And the leaders in the Church made the rule, whatever they bind on earth is bound in heaven, so we're stuck, buddy. Anyway, it's a great grace. Don't knock it 'til you try it, though, it requires a great deal of humility, which may be an obstacle for Protestant types.
tjttzcspplt 11 months ago
Whoops, I meant that for figgy, not you, Tender.
tjttzcspplt 11 months ago
Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to his apostles here on earth and whoever they also transfer the authority to. They also have the authority to NOT forgive. Therefore, if you are not asking God's forgiveness through a priest who received authority from an apostle, there is no valid forgiveness if I reject the authority. Otherwise, why would Jesus have established this sacrament? Jesus Christ be praised, Forever!
cfell 11 months ago
Jesus respected authority of his Father, our Father... Jesus understood and supported the "transfer of authority"from the Father to himself Because he understood this, Jesus was able to transfer the authority and power to forgive sin to the apostles... and he did. If you reject this authority transfer, I challenge you to reject authority the next time you see police lights behind you and hear a voice say, "Stop".
cfell 11 months ago
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Catholicism is an evil cult that has institutionalized child rape and promotes poverty in African countries by lying about birth control, all tax-exempt!
Atheists, it's time to take a proactive stance against the last refuge of human savagery!
TheBookOfGenesis322 11 months ago
well just going by the title,
. ITS FAKE
confess only to CHRIST
.
i was born a catholic, i did the rosary, the candles, the parading of saints & self sacrifice... NONE OF THEM BROUGHT ME CLOSER TO GOD
I HAVE BEEN SAVE BY GRACE
since '89
lakayna 1 year ago
@lakayna I am sorry that praying the rosary did not bring you closer to God. It only meant you did not pray the rosary by heart. By grace alone. Being saved by grace alone (Sola Gratia) is a Lutheran lunacy. It is fom the devil. The bible never said the word alone.
tagabohol 1 year ago
@tagabohol dont be sorry, i dont do rosary because its not in the will of God other wise he will write it in his word. VERY OBVIOUS ha!!!
.
oh heres another obvious one we are save by Grace & not by works
still dont get it? the reason why there is no ONLY by grace because even a child would know that that is the word of God so it is the law.
.
we dont walk-up to the father & ask God u said by grace are you sure just by grace? LOL
catholic is full of rituals witch one works best, hahaha
BAPTIST
lakayna 1 year ago
@lakayna marami kayong nalinlang ni john calvin. hahahaha
tagabohol 1 year ago
@tagabohol dont know calvin
lakayna 1 year ago
@lakayna papanong saved by grace lang eh si kristo nga nagturo na ang pananampalatay ipakita sa gawang mabuti. hahahaha.
tagabohol 1 year ago
@tagabohol GOD BLESS
lakayna 1 year ago
@lakayna hahahahaha. anong masama sa rituals early christians have rituals in their temples. bakit kau wala? hehehehhe
tagabohol 1 year ago
lakayna 1 year ago
@lakayna You are pointing this: Remember the story PLS. its not ONLY that they were gambling in front of the temple but that they were BUYING THERE OFFERINGS TO GOD. Hahahaha. Anong punto mo nagbebentahan ba kami ng alay sa loob ng simbahan namin? hehehehe. Kung pag-aalay ang pinupuntirya mo di ba nga si Kristo at ang mga magulang nya ay sumusunod sa jewish ritual of offering. Kaya nga theres the presentation at the temple. Anong masama to buy an offer? Kung bibili ka ng prutas para ioffer? hehe
tagabohol 1 year ago
@lakayna Ang mga sinasabi mo sa mga mambabasa about SALVATION by grace ALONE patunayan mo kasi wala sa bibliya at IEXPLAIN MO RIN YUNG MGA VERSE SA BIBLIYA NA NAGSASABING WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY OUR GOOD WORKS.
tagabohol 1 year ago
@lakayna Hahahaha. You have set limits to God's law by adding the word ONLY in the bible when there is no such. Even a child knows you do not add or subtract what is written. When it says we are saved by grace, you have to take it in its full implication. Papano ba gumagana ang grasya ng Diyos sa atin? Gagana ba ito kung di nakikita ng Diyos ang pananampalataya natin sa ating mga buhay? Kung sinsasabi lang natin na nananampalataya tau tapos iba naman ang nakikita sa ating mga gawa?
tagabohol 1 year ago
@tagabohol hahaha no i have not, you have with your rituals.
before you get any farther. you need to know that salvation is by grace through Jesus Christ
.
NOT RITUALS, NOT IDOLATRY
lakayna 1 year ago
@lakayna You are attacking the rosary as our prayer. Ang mga prayers na Our Father, Hail, Mary and Glory Be hindi ba biblical? Yung sinasabi mong mga OBVIOUS na turo ang wala. Hahahaha. OBVIOUS talaga na wala ang we are saved by grace ALONE. Ngayon ang sinasabing we are saved by grace and not by works ang ibig sabihin nun pag wala kang pananampalataya ang mga gawang mabuti mo ay wala rin. Kaya nga ang Katoliko naniniwala kami na ang faith at works should go hand in hand sa grasya ng Panginoon
tagabohol 1 year ago
@lakayna ANG SALITANG ROSARY AY GALING SA SALITANG LATIN NA 'ROSARUM' NA ANG IBIG SABIHIN AY FLOWER OF ROSES: Ecclesiasticus [Sirach] 50:6-8 "quasi stella matutina in medio nebulae et quasi luna plena in diebus suis lucet et quasi sol refulgens sic ille effulsit in templo Dei quasi arcus effulgens in nebulam gloriae et quasi flos ROSARUM in diebus veris quasi lilia quae sunt in transitu aquae et quasi tus redolens in diebus aestatis"
tagabohol 1 year ago
@lakayna
Baptists are just as full of rituals. Altar calls, "giving my life to Jesus", etc. You're attacking the wrong thing.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@tagabohol 1. Sola Gratia as you are understanding it ain't Lutheran. It's a result of the radical reformation--which winds up turning the soul in upon itself for assurance that one is indeed saved, rather than Christ extra nos. 2. Listen to the lections on the first Sunday in Lent. Christ Himself says, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Nothing there about our life depending upon anything *we* do, but purely upon His Word.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@DRM2193 Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Does this verse say any negation about the value of good works? No it does not. It contrasts the physical bread that we eat and the spiritual bread which is the Eucharist. The word of God does not say we live by faith alone or by grace alone otherwise Christ would not teach the Beatitudes would he?
tagabohol 10 months ago
@tagabohol
Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God is Christ Himself. I agree that there is a Eucharistic undertone to what He said there. But what is the Word doing in the first place? In the beginning was the Word...without Him nothing was made/created that has been made. God Father, Son, HS creates--creates people (and things) other than Himself to receive His Love. But *everything* is initiated by Him. Thus, all my good works, even my faith, begin with Him--"New Creation".
DRM2193 10 months ago
@DRM2193 Christ would not underscore how we should be merciful and compassionate and to love our neighbors, even our enemies. Are these not concrete actions to be undertaken? Are these just an act of trusting God? When God said we trust in his mercy and grace it compels us to be merciful to our neighbors as well, thus our own actions. To him who gives forgiveness, he will also be forgiven. To him who shows mercy, mercy will be shown. The parable of the money lender.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@tagabohol They are *precisely* actions which *flow* from trusting God. that is, they are *fruits* of the Life of Christ given to us by grace--that is, freely, the undeserved (utterly) favor of God. First comes the life of the tree, then comes--as a necessary result, certainly--the fruits. It is a caricature of Lutheranism to say that we preach against good works. They are necessary--results, not necessary *causes* of salvation/forgiveness.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@DRM2193 Whoever said the grace of God is not free? No. We Catholics are not saying that. We do not deserve the grace of God but it is still given to us. We do not do penance and prayers and good works to "gain" God's grace. The operative word is not gain but rather implore God's mercy and for God's mercy to work on us.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@tagabohol,brother,we are saved by grace of God through faith in Christ,that's the Word of God.Before we can be saved or enter the Kingdom of God,we need to believe Jesus that is why it is called faith.Faith is a requisite entering body of Christ,then you need not worry...Christ, who lives in us the moment we believe Him,will leads & guides us to do good works.Good works as a result of salvation to sustain or abide in the tree who is Christ.
IAmNotAnIdolater 10 months ago
@tagabohol Yes. You illustrate the difference between us quite well. Gratia infusa is what you mean when you say "grace". God infuses us with a "gift" that we might be able to do good works ("allowing" or "not refusing" to bear good fruit, to use our tree analogy) which in some way then merits salvation, if not even forgiveness. Grace as I use the word means the *external* favor of God--he looks upon me and declares me righteous (and therefore "saved") for Christ's sake...
DRM2193 10 months ago
@tagabohol And then, *because* He has already declared it to be so ("justification"--"objective", as we Lutherans say), His Word (always creating) I simply trust that it's true. And all this *before* I have begged Him for it, or *done* anything at all. Faith saves precisely in its *passivity*. It certainly does not *remain* passive. Faith, because it trusts that "He who spared not His only Son, but gave Him up for us all, how shall He not, along with Him, freely give us all things?" *acts*..
DRM2193 10 months ago
@tagabohol ...out of that trust, in obedience to Him, which means love of neighbor (love as *our Father* loves my neighbor--that is, not as I make up in my still-sin-stained mind what that "love" might be). God's favor, spoken to me by His called and ordained servant (pastor/priest/bishop) performs the Good Work *on* me, and then, *in* me, that He might work Good for my neighbor, *through* me in my various vocations.
Thanks, btw, for your patience in this conversation. I'm listening, too.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@DRM2193 God infuses us with a "gift" that we might be able to do good works ("allowing" or "not refusing" to bear good fruit, to use our tree analogy) which in some way then merits salvation, if not even forgiveness. Thank you for this point. It reinforces the biblical teaching that man is justified for his good works. That parable of talents. To whom much is given much is also required. Therefore we are compelled to do good works, even do things that are against our own will...
tagabohol 10 months ago
@tagabohol I think you misunderstood. I'm simply stating *your* understanding of "grace." You are depending upon James entirely. You need to put James and Romans together. And Galatians. The Promise--the Word of Grace, came before the covenant of obedience. Paul makes that *explicit* when he talks about Abraham. "He believed God and [God] credited/accounted/imputed it to him as righteousness." That's justification, *before* *any* good works. Romans 4 makes it rather explicit, too.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@DRM2193 if it meant following the will of God. Doing good works doesn't just flow naturally from good people. No. There are times when the most honest of intentions do not suffice, we have to follow God's will even if it meant 'suffering'. Job sought to do what is God's will even if God was silent in these instances. Even if he no longer understood what was happening to him. That was not just faith, God sustained him.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@tagabohol Actually, I (sorta) disagree with you regarding good works "flowing naturally". The "new man", "hidden with Christ in God," (Colossians) does indeed do good works "by nature" precisely because he is a "new creation." "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me." (More to come...)
DRM2193 10 months ago
@tagabohol To be sure, I still live with my "old Adam" who hates God and has no desire at all to do His will. So what is *seen* is the struggle and the lack of understanding of what the life of Christ actually looks like in me. Nevertheless, all this is *consequence* of the fact that I am *already* assured that I stand as completely righteous, without any regard for how I subsequently struggle well or poorly to exhibit the life of Christ in me, simply because the Father counts Christ to me.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@DRM2193 If you have "faith" that can move mountains but have not love all is for naught. By love here it means charity, good actions towards your neighbor. Mere faith does not suffice to be considered righteous. Abraham proved his faith to God by offering to sacrifice his son, thats how God knew how faithful he was."Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. " The belief shown here is not just mere faith but a kind of faith that was proven through his actions.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 God taught us to be generous and merciful but Jesus in the New Testament demands a different kind of generosity, the kind that is not comfortable, the kind that hurts. The widow giving her last penny. It is not just the intention to share but to share the best of us, not just money but time and stuff we can share to others.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@tagabohol I agree. "Greater love has no man than this....." That is *1st* Christ for us. But then it also applies to *our* lives *in Him*--as those baptized into His death and resurrection. So we begin to see, even as Christians, just how miserably sinful we are. And this is good, because it drives us more and more to rely entirely upon God's pronouncement that, in spite of our sinfulness, we are, for Jesus' sake, His beloved sons, in whom He is well-pleased. We live from the Font.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@tagabohol Again, thanks greatly for this conversation. I can't help thinking that this is precisely what needs to happen between Lutherans and Roman Catholics. (And throw in the E Orthodox, too. And, heck, why not? The various Calvinist branches. Call me a dreamer. :) ) Even if we end up not agreeing to the point where there is an *external* re-establishment of communion, still, we'd understand each other better, and all of us might learn something from God's Word.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@DRM2193 But yes indeed, we make no mistake when we said that even a person who did not do anything to merit salvation but acted in faith only like the thief hanging on the cross was shown mercy and therefore entered paradise. He suffered with Christ, and he understood his sufferings as something he deserved so that when he asked for God's mercy he was given complete forgiveness. His faith in God's mercy indeed saved him.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 I did consider the other verses that you mentioned but the way I understand it , is that man cannot claim merit of his salvation through following the law and doing good works only. In the same way that faith is dead if it is not manifested through actions. Those who were faithful to God like Abraham had been tested in their faith.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 In the end, the real merit is God's sacrifice : the blood of Jesus Christ. That Christ died on the cross for our sins. We Catholics believe that. I do not think we totally disagree with each other. But I think we Catholics are misunderstood on this. Our belief is salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ but we do not believe in FAITH alone simply because the bible does not teach this.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 The young man who had faith to follow Christ wholeheartedly and asked him how he could enter the kingdom of God. He was faithful to God's commandments and all, he loved God and had faith on him. Then Christ asked him to sell all his riches and give it to the poor. Christ then knew what his attachments were and tested him on this. Faith is often tested through actions, and it your failure to do God's will that will make you fall from God's plan for you.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." That's how God separates the goats from the sheep, the sheep does the will of the Father. The goats may have faith and may call God their Lord but because they do not feed the hungry or clothe the naked, their supposed "faith" is just for naught.
tagabohol 10 months ago
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@DRM2193 Nevertheless, all this is *consequence* of the fact that I am *already* assured that I stand as completely righteous, without any regard for how I subsequently struggle well or poorly to exhibit the life of Christ in me, simply because the Father counts Christ to me. I strongly disagree with this statement. This is not biblical. The bible teaches that all your works are accounted to you when you are judged.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 Nevertheless, all this is *consequence* of the fact that I am *already* assured that I stand as completely righteous, without any regard for how I subsequently struggle well or poorly to exhibit the life of Christ in me, simply because the Father counts Christ to me. I strongly disagree with this statement. It is unbiblical. Christ's sacrifice is indeed enough for our salvation but you are also accounted for all your actions good or bad.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 To whom much is given much is required. That is taught in the bible. If all faithful are considered "equally and completely righteous" before God by believing in Jesus Christ why then would there be such requirement? Why then would Christ demand more from us? Why then would Christ ask us to take up our crosses if we do not regard it as important for our salvation?
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 We are all sinful before God yes, but our degrees of sin are of different levels and circumstance and therefore of different weights and grievousness. So is our righteousness, I can never claim to be equally righteous compared to St. Joseph who was a just man as the bible declared . Hence he is also my model of Christian virtues ; the virtue of trust and obedience.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 It has been great discussing with you these points brother if only to increase our understanding of the Word of God. Thanks also. :)
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 Your analogy is of a tree that bears fruits as a result of Christian life. But remember there is also a parable of a tree that refuses to bear fruit and so the master is deciding whether to cut the tree or not.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193, you're right brother.The faith referred to by Apostle Paul is true faith contrary to what James referred to as false faith.True faith is always accompanied by actions or belief on what God said.False faith and unbelief convey the same meaning.True faith always produces good works.We can be saved by faith alone in Christ (John 3:16).
IAmNotAnIdolater 10 months ago
@tagabohol "New Creation"--I do nothing to begin my existence in the first place. I also do not "re-create" myself.
What's ironic is that the Protestants who have the biggest problem with Roman Catholicism because of the sacraments and the "rituals" (ie, the Liturgy), and see in them "works righteousness", turn right around and add human works (decision theology, ecstatic conversion experiences *not* promised by God, etc.) back into the equation. Re James: I show you my faith *by* my works.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@DRM2193 God's grace and mercy cannot work in our lives if we do not allow it and by allowing it, it does not mean PASSIVE faith. It means active faith. Having heard God's words and Christs teachings, it should reflect in our lives.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 James 2 : 24 You see that a person is considered RIGHTEOUS by what they DO and NOT by faith alone.
tagabohol 10 months ago
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tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 James 2 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@DRM2193 The bible clarified it my friend. Faith and and good works go together. You cannot say you have faith if it is not evident in your good works. You cannot say you are saved by the grace of God and by trusting in him if that faith does not reflect in your life. That is a foolish man's excuse not to do good deeds.
tagabohol 10 months ago
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@DRM2193 I'd say the Sola Gratia (by grace alone) doctrine nyo is not of Christ kasi yung sinabi mong verse at the way you interpret it ay hindi naman nagsasabi ng ganon. Parang sinasabi nyo na ang tao wag nang magsikap gawin ang mabuti kasi tutal naman sa grasya ng Panginoon tayoy ligtas na. You are teaching people not to be accountable for their actions. You are teaching people to be complacent the way you view salvation.
tagabohol 10 months ago
@tagabohol more: But the Sacraments are all about God's Word alone. That's what makes them so comforting. Jesus said, "If you forgive anyone their sins they are forgiven..." and so we know we are forgiven--not apart from His death and resurrection, but by the Absolution uniting us to it--same with Baptism, same with the Lord's Supper. To trust I am forgiven in Baptism is simply to trust in Jesus. Rest in Him. And then, with that load off my shoulders, I am free to live for my neighbor.
DRM2193 10 months ago
@lakayna You pastor told you confession is fake because that is how he understood it. The bible spoke many times about confession and your pastor don't understand them at all.
tagabohol 1 year ago
@tagabohol ohhhhhhh boy your just helpless. here let me enlighten you young one.
your priest that you call your father is not your dad
& every time you call him that you are hurting God for he is a jealous God. he is our ONLY father.
.
WOW your attacking my pastor?
READ THIS SLOW,
ITS IN THE BIBLE, confess to Jesus for he is the way the truth and? come on! and??? the what? good boy the LIGHT
lakayna 1 year ago