Wow, why are they talking about Calvin? He was just a backwards thinking 16th century heretic who started a cult? What's the difference between Calvin and Joseph Smith? Maybe only the Moroni story, and that I haven't heard of Mormons burning their adversaries at the stake, though I've heard they will blacklist you....
@buzzbbird That (very biased) site uses Calvin: A Biography by Bernard Cottret as a big source, and takes it out of context continually. Here are some reviews on that SAME book; "Far from a firebrand, John Calvin was a remote, shy, almost withdrawn figure who had whatever offices he held forced upon him. Geneva had gone in for Reformed Protestantism long before he arrived there and Calvin's Geneva was far from the "theocracy" it is often caricatured as."
@Ridgetown100 And not one person who is pro-Calvin is biased, right? the deaths under Calvin, for rejecting Calvin's religious views are historical fact, not fictions, not inventions of anti-calvinists. Numbers do NOT = right or correct conclusions. As I have stated, Calvin's own hand condemns him. Calvin DESIRED this man's (and others )death. period. This is the heart of murder and cannot be blamed upon timeframe or location. No one but Calvin wrote Calvin's letters!
@buzzbbird Yes Calvin wished for Servetus to be killed. That does not mean he was not Christian, it means he was not perfect! You may not be a Calvinist but read his writings on the beatitudes, or Grace and its Fruits and you'll see his own heart. Just because your not a Calvinist doesn't mean you have to hate Calvin (he didn't invent it!). I admire Wesley, Finney, Lewis, and many other Arminians. We are brothers in Christ! Your site makes a demon out of Calvin, which we wasn't!
@buzzbbird Is Calvin worthy of salvation? No, neither am I or you. That's why we call it GRACE. Calvin loved Christ Jesus, of the bible. Calvin expressed his gratitude many times to Christ for showing mercy to Him. Calvin tried to love his wife as Christ loves the Church. Calvin loved the orphan and widow, wished to help the distressed. He wanted to grow in Humility and kindness, and wanted others to grow in love of Christ. Calvin did not wish power, but to serve.
@Ridgetown100 History shows that calvin did EVERYTHING in his power to gather and keep power. THAT is the very definition of WANTING power. God has NEVER forced anyone into believing, nor has God ever told anyone in the Age of Grace to cause another person's death, nor wish for it:
Call Calvin a christian if you wish, God gives you that freedom, so must I. I call him a savage, bloodthirsty heretic! Who is, at this very moment, burning in the eternal fire of hell
@buzzbbird He was not perfect, far from it. He committed many sins, yes. But no Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, or Heretic has ever had such a tender heart towards Christ, and lived a life devoted to Him, trusting in Him.
@buzzbbird "Calvin has long been misunderstood and misrepresented! The author portrays the man as a mortal, and as a sincerely devoted Christian." and "However, Cottret is careful to separate the man Calvin from the ensuing Calvinism that developed later. Calvin appears more timid and much more interested in spiritual reform than promoting a theocracy in Geneva." So here's how I see it, either that site has taken the book out of context or everyone else who has read is wrong. Hmmm
Servetus was merely doing what God ordained him to do and so was Calvin, according to the Calvinist hereiics.
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Westminster Confession of Faith, Ch 3:I)
@lessingtom "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." We already have enough smart aleck's in the world, so maybe next time it would better to try quoting the entire writing.
Who's the Chinese or Japanese gentleman? He says what Servetus had done was not the right thing for the sheep to grow in their faith. May I remind him that God does not agree with him.
If there arise among you a prophet, . . . saying, Let us go after other gods, . . . Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, . . . : for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deu 13:1-3). He never said: Burn them.
Are we being asked to think that Calvin was unfamiliar with this verse: Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Is it not more in line with this, that Calvin lived, in open opposition to scripture: Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
@buzzbbird Servetus was warned: but continued. Calvin did not want Servetus to be killed: but Servetus is sentenced to death. Then Calvin wanted Servetus to die the quicker, less painful death: but instead, Servetus was give the more painful death. Calvin asked Servetus to recant: he didn't. In the end Calvin did not attend Servetus' death. Conclusion? Calvin is an evil man who's theology is inspired by a devil. Doesn't make sense to me, however I am a simple person.
@Ridgetown100 The HOLY BIBLE tells us HOW to deal with those who are heretics or those that bring or teach false doctrine-MARK THEM AND IGNORE THEM
letters, from Calvin, in his own hand, proclaim that he would NOT allow this man to leave HIS town alive, IF HIS WORD HAD ANY WEIGHT
the claim that Calvin did not want his death is a total lie! Calvin had many people killed, for the one and only sin of disagreeing with Calvin, nothing more, nor less!
@buzzbbird There was no seperation between church and state so when one criticized the state religion, it was seen as treason, a penalty that has always been punishable by death. Calvin wrote that yes, probably in anger but he was still wrong in writing it. Calvin did not ask Servetus to come to Geneva, Calvin did not arrest him, nor was he on the jury that sentenced Servetus (and the jury was not a friend of Calvin).
@buzzbbird Calvin is often portrayed as a bitter, angry man but when you read more than just one line from one letter, you find that he had a huge heart for the poor, the orphan, and the widow. He encouraged and challenged his congratulation to show more love and mercy as the Lord has shown us. He was a loving husband, and grieved when his wife died. He loved Jesus, and wanted Jesus to receive as much glory as possible. He was far from perfect, yes but that's why its called GRACE!
@buzzbbird You may disagree with his theology, ok. But to slander him, and make him out to be a monster, even the anti-Christ (or an anit-Christ) is total nonsense! "The Lord commands us to do good unto all men without exception, though the majority are very undeserving... The Scripture teaches us that we must not think of man's real value, but only of his creation in the image of God to which we owe all possible honor and love." - John Calvin
@Ridgetown100 Thanks for pointing out the typo. Slander means to tell lies about another, yet what I said is historical fact., hence NOT slander, Calvin wrote this letter and wanted the man dead. Calvin was known as the Pope of Geneva and he did have many put to death for not assenting and pledging loyalty to Calvin and Calvin's theology. neither thing is Biblical, it is rather antichristian, hence, Callvin was an antichrist!
All, and I mean, ALL, Apologist pretense aside, Calvin, has, by his own hand condemend himself in this affair. CALVIN WISHED THE MAN TO BE KILLED FOR DISAGREEING WITH CALVIN'S OWN (rright or wrong, it does not matter) PERSONALLY HELD DOCTRINE!
Jesus said if you hate, you are a murderer!
Calvin's doctrine allowed, rahter lead him endlessly towards hating anyone who theologically disagreed with him
This is not love, this is NOT Christian
an d the bible says a tree produces fruit after its kind
Don't justify Calvins heinious crimes. Zwingli was just as bad. That's a lie to say, those were the days of that times. the Ananbaptist nerver murdered anyone!!! Calvins words to Servetus: Whoever shall now argue that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers todeath will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt. William Farel was a great influence on Calvin and was a murderer!!!
Don't shift the blame on the trouble maker, Yikes!!!
@WorshipInTruth 1. God is sovereign. In his sovereignty he gave moral freedom to men to choose for or against him - this is clear in scripture 2. God states he does not want the wicked to die, but to repent. 3. God states he intends all men everywhere to repent. 4. Acts 17 God made all men from one blood in the hope they would feel for him and find him. 5. Christ enlightens every man born in this world Jn 1:9 6. whosoever wills may come & drink freely end Revelation. The elect seed is Christ!
@cornwallsteve the passage in Revelation is misapplied. The context of Revelation 22 reveals that there is a limited audience to whom that water of life is made accessible. It is within New Jerusalem where v. 14 reveals who is able to enter the city in the first place. One cannot drink freely of the water of life until one has first been blessed to enter into the city. Only those who hear the Spirit will come. Who are they that are athirst? Those whose hearts have been made inclined unto Christ.
@cornwallsteve Something miraculous has to occur in the heart of man, among all of whom none seek after God (Rom 3:11), that suddenly is awakened to be able to sing with Psalm 42:1-2 where it says, As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?
@cornwallsteve When God created Adam he created him perfect in every way. There was no stain of sin anywhere in his life. His will was entirely intact to choose without the influences or the degradation that sin would bring. Adam, and Eve for that matter, were the only human beings to have had free will, in the truest sense of the word. But when Adam & Eve sinned, that freedom to will was destroyed. Through that initial sin of our first parents, we were given over to being born with a sin nature
@cornwallsteve that sin nature corrupted everything about us-including our ability to will freely. there are many instances where this is revealed to us. the Scriptures are replete with this fact that we, in the fall of Adam, had fallen under bondage to sin. One of the main thrusts of the gospel message is about that deliverance from being in bondage to sin. The story of Israel in bondage in Egypt and the deliverence thereof is a parable (Ps 78) of our relationship to sin and our being
@cornwallsteve ..delivered by the Lord and his Servant (the Prophet that was like unto Moses). What freedom of will a person has, is that freedom that is provided by the Lord Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit who applies the word-that truth that sets a man free to walk after righteousness which he before had no will, nor ability towards. As Romans 6 shows, we were once slaves unto sin, but have been delivered unto becoming slaves of righteousness.
@cornwallsteve the irony is that when a person is still a slave to sin, he is convinced that it is according to his own free will that he is so walking-though he is anything but free to do anything but sin. yet when one is delivered from that bondage unto the liberty that is in Christ, the last thing that soul is interested in is being free to do whatever they will; but are rather moved to be under the yoke and bondage of God's will for their lives. yet they are the only ones who can truly
@cornwallsteve that can truly say they have a free will, or more specifically a freed will. yet all they want to do with that will is to crucify it with Christ, and let all that they do, all that they are be according to the Father's will through Christ in us by the power of the Holy Spirit guiding us in every step. what becomes important is the free expression of God's good, perfect and acceptable will in our lives, not whether i have a free will or not. my will delights in being subject to
@cornwallsteve my will, our will delights in that which the Son of God demonstrates to us. He who is equal to God found it his pleasure to do the will of the Father. He whose name is above all names, whose throne is at the right hand of the Majesty on high is not interested in his will-as absolutely free and sovereign as it is-but in the will of the Father, which is counted of greater importance than any other's will anywhere in heaven or on earth.
"Jesus, thou Son of the eternal God, have compassion upon me!"
My Jesus was alone in His trial, everyone deserted Him. No one gave Him compassion. No man was more marred. Servetus' called out to Jesus, acknowledging only Jesus could save Him, asking Jesus for compassion.
Who is our brother? Why is EVIL being justified and LAUGHED AT BY THIS PANEL AND AUDIENCE!!! YHVH grant repentance.
"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, AS I HAVE EXTERMINATED Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
From Calvin's 1561 to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre
This is sick justification for an evil deed. Will it really matter to Jesus when the excuse is given: "Well, everybody else was doing it, it was the custom of the day."? Calvin HIMSELF wrote TWO books defending his murder of Servetus. Also, Servetus DID NOT deny Jesus' divinity--it is SO clear that these men do not do their OWN research.
Servetus own words:
"I shall admit these three things: first, this man is JESUS CHRIST; second, he is the Son of God; third, he is God."
True, these guys tap dance around the murder of Michael Servetus without acknowledging that John Calvin had over 50 other people brutally murdered for disagreeing with his doctrines - infant baptism being the most popular reason for him to persecute someone (but legally, of course, just like how the Pharisees legally murdered Jesus by going through the state. Jesus says we should judge Calvin by his murderous fruit, not worship him because he was so "smart."
I am not necessarily saying that Calvin was right in authorizing his execution (I prefer a constitutional republic with guarantees on freedom of religion over a theocracy) but I UNDERSTAND why he did it. There are those who would like to throw away the whole legacy of Reformed Theology and the absolute sovereignty of God over this one issue (Servetus's execution). Calvin was just a man, true "calvinists" place their faith in the Most High (as revealed in Scripture), not Calvin.
@WorshipInTruth Of course we know the early church fathers who were taught by the Apostles, to a man, all rejected the doctrines of unconditional election and predestination to salvation in individuals - They all taught the freedom of the will, and the ability of all men to choose God. Augustine over 300 years later introduced a different gospel, that was taken up by Calvin, & lately Piper and Driscoll et al. A little research will prove this:
@WorshipInTruth Peter said: whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:35 WIT - just read the link I provided to see the early church Fathers all accepted the freedom of the will, and the baility to choose God in all. Augustine, 2-300 yrs later introduced an entirely different theological framework, not previously held by the early church, and Calvin took this up as his basis. Note Piper quotes Augustine but not the early Church Fathers - disciples of the apostles
@cornwallsteve Calvinism is clearly outlined in the Book of Romans. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." continued..
@cornwallsteve continued.."For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." continued....
@cornwallsteve continued... "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" continued....
@cornwallsteve "..Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:11-24
@cornwallsteve There it is laid out for you plain as day. Thank God for the clarity of the Apostle Paul. Seems to me that you put way to much emphasis on the supposed early "church fathers". They are not to be trusted if what they say at all contradicts Scripture remembering that in even the first were there false Christians perverting the Gospel and that the "mystery of iniquity" doth already work in Pauls days.
@cornwallsteve Not to mention that there is almost nothing written by the "early church fathers", and what we do have from them is oftentimes proven to be a papal forgery of later centuries. So much speculation and disagreement involving the "church fathers" that I do not see why you wouldn't just throw it all off as hogwash and follow Scripture. The Bible is authoritative, they are not and many of them were corrupted with gnosticism or other heresies.
@cornwallsteve Even so, if you think that Augustine was the first to preach the absolute sovereignty of God over his creation then you are sorely mistaken. I do not agree with many things that Augustine wrote but concerning the all important subject of salvation and divine grace he was right on. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44
@cornwallsteve "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? continued....
@cornwallsteve continued ...... "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." - Romans 8:29-33
Servetus was a professional agitator. The inquisition wanted him dead, and demanded his life. Calvin merely wanted to show that although Protestants have no such thing as an "inquisition" heresy would not be allowed to run rampant in Geneva. Servetus was a racial jew whose brothers were jesuit priests, he was a widely known troublemaker and seditionist and he was given his fair share of warnings. I believe the jesuits placed Servetus in Geneva so that Calvin would be forced to make a descision.
Wow alot of these guys commenting on da vid seem to be rather judgemental and unforgiving towards Calvin and seem to let their anger/hatred towards him and his teaching blind their thinking and reasoning SMH
watching these men defending their idol - Calvin, is shameful, what part of "love your enemies...bless those who persecute you" did Calvin not understand?
Servetus did not deny the deity of Jesus Christ. He would not say "eternal son of God"... but rather Son of the Eternal God. He believed in modalism, that is Jesus is the Father in flesh. Indeed heresy, but he did not deny the deity of Christ.
What's with the laughing regarding Servetus? Even if he was a heretic because he denied the trinity laughing over someone who was burned at the stake slowly with green wood to prolong the agony is just plain evil.
You can't justify evil. You people are no better than the Catholics.
Heresies and false teachers need to be exposed and refuted publicly not tortured or burned at the stake.
All I can say is that God knows the truth and any attempts at cover up are pointless.
Therefore, Calvin was proud to take personal credit for purg[ing] the church of so pernicious a monster [as Servetus].
Writing in 1561 to the Marquis Paet (chamberlain to the King of Navarre), Calvin said, Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the peoples to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.
It was a political reformation and heresies were punished by death those days like terrorists are destroyed. They were deemed as criminals because they disrupted society.
Wow, why are they talking about Calvin? He was just a backwards thinking 16th century heretic who started a cult? What's the difference between Calvin and Joseph Smith? Maybe only the Moroni story, and that I haven't heard of Mormons burning their adversaries at the stake, though I've heard they will blacklist you....
joejohnson043 5 months ago
@joejohnson043 mormons in the 19th century castrated a man caught in adultery.
RUdigitized 4 months ago
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight." - John Calvin
"I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him [Servetus]" - John Calvin
"Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." - John Calvin
jlopez47 7 months ago
@jlopez47 can you give the references to the works where these quotes can be found, not where others quote them, but the primary sources. thank you.
Have a nice day :)
TruthDefenders 5 months ago
this is creepy
TheGergaliciousness 7 months ago
I wished we could have had a balanced scholarly panel, this panel is stacked.
While I am reformed I think we need to be honest, Calvin wished Servetus dead and gave assent to the verdicted thinking Servetus was beyond help.
We need to understand Calivin wasn't the only one in that day of reformation but a lot of the reformers were like that, a product of the times.
klucharis 8 months ago
Here is a true, factual and quick overview of Calvin, be sure to click on ALL the links to read all there is to read about Calvin:
biblelife[.]org/calvinism[.]htm
Be sure to remove the[]'s
buzzbbird 8 months ago
@buzzbbird That (very biased) site uses Calvin: A Biography by Bernard Cottret as a big source, and takes it out of context continually. Here are some reviews on that SAME book; "Far from a firebrand, John Calvin was a remote, shy, almost withdrawn figure who had whatever offices he held forced upon him. Geneva had gone in for Reformed Protestantism long before he arrived there and Calvin's Geneva was far from the "theocracy" it is often caricatured as."
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
@Ridgetown100 And not one person who is pro-Calvin is biased, right? the deaths under Calvin, for rejecting Calvin's religious views are historical fact, not fictions, not inventions of anti-calvinists. Numbers do NOT = right or correct conclusions. As I have stated, Calvin's own hand condemns him. Calvin DESIRED this man's (and others )death. period. This is the heart of murder and cannot be blamed upon timeframe or location. No one but Calvin wrote Calvin's letters!
buzzbbird 8 months ago
@buzzbbird Yes Calvin wished for Servetus to be killed. That does not mean he was not Christian, it means he was not perfect! You may not be a Calvinist but read his writings on the beatitudes, or Grace and its Fruits and you'll see his own heart. Just because your not a Calvinist doesn't mean you have to hate Calvin (he didn't invent it!). I admire Wesley, Finney, Lewis, and many other Arminians. We are brothers in Christ! Your site makes a demon out of Calvin, which we wasn't!
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
@buzzbbird Is Calvin worthy of salvation? No, neither am I or you. That's why we call it GRACE. Calvin loved Christ Jesus, of the bible. Calvin expressed his gratitude many times to Christ for showing mercy to Him. Calvin tried to love his wife as Christ loves the Church. Calvin loved the orphan and widow, wished to help the distressed. He wanted to grow in Humility and kindness, and wanted others to grow in love of Christ. Calvin did not wish power, but to serve.
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
@Ridgetown100 History shows that calvin did EVERYTHING in his power to gather and keep power. THAT is the very definition of WANTING power. God has NEVER forced anyone into believing, nor has God ever told anyone in the Age of Grace to cause another person's death, nor wish for it:
1 John 2:9-11, 3:8-14, 4:20
Call Calvin a christian if you wish, God gives you that freedom, so must I. I call him a savage, bloodthirsty heretic! Who is, at this very moment, burning in the eternal fire of hell
buzzbbird 8 months ago
@buzzbbird thats tough, maybe he repented of his tyranny before he died?
joejohnson043 5 months ago
@buzzbbird He was not perfect, far from it. He committed many sins, yes. But no Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, or Heretic has ever had such a tender heart towards Christ, and lived a life devoted to Him, trusting in Him.
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
@buzzbbird "Calvin has long been misunderstood and misrepresented! The author portrays the man as a mortal, and as a sincerely devoted Christian." and "However, Cottret is careful to separate the man Calvin from the ensuing Calvinism that developed later. Calvin appears more timid and much more interested in spiritual reform than promoting a theocracy in Geneva." So here's how I see it, either that site has taken the book out of context or everyone else who has read is wrong. Hmmm
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
Servetus was merely doing what God ordained him to do and so was Calvin, according to the Calvinist hereiics.
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Westminster Confession of Faith, Ch 3:I)
lessingtom 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lessingtom "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." We already have enough smart aleck's in the world, so maybe next time it would better to try quoting the entire writing.
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
Who's the Chinese or Japanese gentleman? He says what Servetus had done was not the right thing for the sheep to grow in their faith. May I remind him that God does not agree with him.
If there arise among you a prophet, . . . saying, Let us go after other gods, . . . Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, . . . : for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deu 13:1-3). He never said: Burn them.
lessingtom 9 months ago
Are we being asked to think that Calvin was unfamiliar with this verse: Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Is it not more in line with this, that Calvin lived, in open opposition to scripture: Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
"Everyone did, so Calvin did too", Is the excuse?
buzzbbird 10 months ago
@buzzbbird Servetus was warned: but continued. Calvin did not want Servetus to be killed: but Servetus is sentenced to death. Then Calvin wanted Servetus to die the quicker, less painful death: but instead, Servetus was give the more painful death. Calvin asked Servetus to recant: he didn't. In the end Calvin did not attend Servetus' death. Conclusion? Calvin is an evil man who's theology is inspired by a devil. Doesn't make sense to me, however I am a simple person.
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
@Ridgetown100 The HOLY BIBLE tells us HOW to deal with those who are heretics or those that bring or teach false doctrine-MARK THEM AND IGNORE THEM
letters, from Calvin, in his own hand, proclaim that he would NOT allow this man to leave HIS town alive, IF HIS WORD HAD ANY WEIGHT
the claim that Calvin did not want his death is a total lie! Calvin had many people killed, for the one and only sin of disagreeing with Calvin, nothing more, nor less!
Calvin=Anti-christ!
buzzbbird 8 months ago
@buzzbbird There was no seperation between church and state so when one criticized the state religion, it was seen as treason, a penalty that has always been punishable by death. Calvin wrote that yes, probably in anger but he was still wrong in writing it. Calvin did not ask Servetus to come to Geneva, Calvin did not arrest him, nor was he on the jury that sentenced Servetus (and the jury was not a friend of Calvin).
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
@buzzbbird Calvin is often portrayed as a bitter, angry man but when you read more than just one line from one letter, you find that he had a huge heart for the poor, the orphan, and the widow. He encouraged and challenged his congratulation to show more love and mercy as the Lord has shown us. He was a loving husband, and grieved when his wife died. He loved Jesus, and wanted Jesus to receive as much glory as possible. He was far from perfect, yes but that's why its called GRACE!
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
@buzzbbird You may disagree with his theology, ok. But to slander him, and make him out to be a monster, even the anti-Christ (or an anit-Christ) is total nonsense! "The Lord commands us to do good unto all men without exception, though the majority are very undeserving... The Scripture teaches us that we must not think of man's real value, but only of his creation in the image of God to which we owe all possible honor and love." - John Calvin
Ridgetown100 8 months ago
@Ridgetown100 Thanks for pointing out the typo. Slander means to tell lies about another, yet what I said is historical fact., hence NOT slander, Calvin wrote this letter and wanted the man dead. Calvin was known as the Pope of Geneva and he did have many put to death for not assenting and pledging loyalty to Calvin and Calvin's theology. neither thing is Biblical, it is rather antichristian, hence, Callvin was an antichrist!
buzzbbird 8 months ago
All, and I mean, ALL, Apologist pretense aside, Calvin, has, by his own hand condemend himself in this affair. CALVIN WISHED THE MAN TO BE KILLED FOR DISAGREEING WITH CALVIN'S OWN (rright or wrong, it does not matter) PERSONALLY HELD DOCTRINE!
Jesus said if you hate, you are a murderer!
Calvin's doctrine allowed, rahter lead him endlessly towards hating anyone who theologically disagreed with him
This is not love, this is NOT Christian
an d the bible says a tree produces fruit after its kind
buzzbbird 10 months ago
Comment removed
hannahbethia 10 months ago
Don't justify Calvins heinious crimes. Zwingli was just as bad. That's a lie to say, those were the days of that times. the Ananbaptist nerver murdered anyone!!! Calvins words to Servetus: Whoever shall now argue that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers todeath will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt. William Farel was a great influence on Calvin and was a murderer!!!
Don't shift the blame on the trouble maker, Yikes!!!
ziggyzigy 11 months ago
i am a christian and lean reformed but calvin was wrong period!
agnostaxian 1 year ago
So, in this video we hear BOTH that Calvin argued Against AND was 'un-
extrordinarily' supportive of the burning... Huh?
Ted2864 1 year ago
ytt
ziggyzigy 11 months ago
@WorshipInTruth 1. God is sovereign. In his sovereignty he gave moral freedom to men to choose for or against him - this is clear in scripture 2. God states he does not want the wicked to die, but to repent. 3. God states he intends all men everywhere to repent. 4. Acts 17 God made all men from one blood in the hope they would feel for him and find him. 5. Christ enlightens every man born in this world Jn 1:9 6. whosoever wills may come & drink freely end Revelation. The elect seed is Christ!
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve the passage in Revelation is misapplied. The context of Revelation 22 reveals that there is a limited audience to whom that water of life is made accessible. It is within New Jerusalem where v. 14 reveals who is able to enter the city in the first place. One cannot drink freely of the water of life until one has first been blessed to enter into the city. Only those who hear the Spirit will come. Who are they that are athirst? Those whose hearts have been made inclined unto Christ.
HermitintheRain 10 months ago
@cornwallsteve Something miraculous has to occur in the heart of man, among all of whom none seek after God (Rom 3:11), that suddenly is awakened to be able to sing with Psalm 42:1-2 where it says, As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?
HermitintheRain 10 months ago
@cornwallsteve When God created Adam he created him perfect in every way. There was no stain of sin anywhere in his life. His will was entirely intact to choose without the influences or the degradation that sin would bring. Adam, and Eve for that matter, were the only human beings to have had free will, in the truest sense of the word. But when Adam & Eve sinned, that freedom to will was destroyed. Through that initial sin of our first parents, we were given over to being born with a sin nature
HermitintheRain 10 months ago
@cornwallsteve that sin nature corrupted everything about us-including our ability to will freely. there are many instances where this is revealed to us. the Scriptures are replete with this fact that we, in the fall of Adam, had fallen under bondage to sin. One of the main thrusts of the gospel message is about that deliverance from being in bondage to sin. The story of Israel in bondage in Egypt and the deliverence thereof is a parable (Ps 78) of our relationship to sin and our being
HermitintheRain 10 months ago
@cornwallsteve ..delivered by the Lord and his Servant (the Prophet that was like unto Moses). What freedom of will a person has, is that freedom that is provided by the Lord Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit who applies the word-that truth that sets a man free to walk after righteousness which he before had no will, nor ability towards. As Romans 6 shows, we were once slaves unto sin, but have been delivered unto becoming slaves of righteousness.
HermitintheRain 10 months ago
@cornwallsteve the irony is that when a person is still a slave to sin, he is convinced that it is according to his own free will that he is so walking-though he is anything but free to do anything but sin. yet when one is delivered from that bondage unto the liberty that is in Christ, the last thing that soul is interested in is being free to do whatever they will; but are rather moved to be under the yoke and bondage of God's will for their lives. yet they are the only ones who can truly
HermitintheRain 10 months ago
@cornwallsteve that can truly say they have a free will, or more specifically a freed will. yet all they want to do with that will is to crucify it with Christ, and let all that they do, all that they are be according to the Father's will through Christ in us by the power of the Holy Spirit guiding us in every step. what becomes important is the free expression of God's good, perfect and acceptable will in our lives, not whether i have a free will or not. my will delights in being subject to
HermitintheRain 10 months ago
@cornwallsteve my will, our will delights in that which the Son of God demonstrates to us. He who is equal to God found it his pleasure to do the will of the Father. He whose name is above all names, whose throne is at the right hand of the Majesty on high is not interested in his will-as absolutely free and sovereign as it is-but in the will of the Father, which is counted of greater importance than any other's will anywhere in heaven or on earth.
HermitintheRain 10 months ago
Servetus' last words as he died in the flame:
"Jesus, thou Son of the eternal God, have compassion upon me!"
My Jesus was alone in His trial, everyone deserted Him. No one gave Him compassion. No man was more marred. Servetus' called out to Jesus, acknowledging only Jesus could save Him, asking Jesus for compassion.
Who is our brother? Why is EVIL being justified and LAUGHED AT BY THIS PANEL AND AUDIENCE!!! YHVH grant repentance.
boltingpuppies 1 year ago
Calvins OWN words:
"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, AS I HAVE EXTERMINATED Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
From Calvin's 1561 to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre
boltingpuppies 1 year ago
Servetus was NOT Calvin's only victim. This was not ONE black spot.
Michael Servetus
Jacques Gruet
Freckles Dunant
Sebastian Castellio
and many others, including a mother who did not believe in infant baptism--and again, many others.
Proverbs 17:15
He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous,Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.
boltingpuppies 1 year ago
This is sick justification for an evil deed. Will it really matter to Jesus when the excuse is given: "Well, everybody else was doing it, it was the custom of the day."? Calvin HIMSELF wrote TWO books defending his murder of Servetus. Also, Servetus DID NOT deny Jesus' divinity--it is SO clear that these men do not do their OWN research.
Servetus own words:
"I shall admit these three things: first, this man is JESUS CHRIST; second, he is the Son of God; third, he is God."
boltingpuppies 1 year ago
Lol a bunch of deceiving and immature old men. Really good witness.
Endnuenfyr 1 year ago
True, these guys tap dance around the murder of Michael Servetus without acknowledging that John Calvin had over 50 other people brutally murdered for disagreeing with his doctrines - infant baptism being the most popular reason for him to persecute someone (but legally, of course, just like how the Pharisees legally murdered Jesus by going through the state. Jesus says we should judge Calvin by his murderous fruit, not worship him because he was so "smart."
aJesusFollower 1 year ago
I am not necessarily saying that Calvin was right in authorizing his execution (I prefer a constitutional republic with guarantees on freedom of religion over a theocracy) but I UNDERSTAND why he did it. There are those who would like to throw away the whole legacy of Reformed Theology and the absolute sovereignty of God over this one issue (Servetus's execution). Calvin was just a man, true "calvinists" place their faith in the Most High (as revealed in Scripture), not Calvin.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@WorshipInTruth Of course we know the early church fathers who were taught by the Apostles, to a man, all rejected the doctrines of unconditional election and predestination to salvation in individuals - They all taught the freedom of the will, and the ability of all men to choose God. Augustine over 300 years later introduced a different gospel, that was taken up by Calvin, & lately Piper and Driscoll et al. A little research will prove this:
angelfire[dot]com/ab8/hobbes/antenicene.html
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve Who told you that load of bull. Calvinist theology is completely backed by Scripture.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@WorshipInTruth Peter said: whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:35 WIT - just read the link I provided to see the early church Fathers all accepted the freedom of the will, and the baility to choose God in all. Augustine, 2-300 yrs later introduced an entirely different theological framework, not previously held by the early church, and Calvin took this up as his basis. Note Piper quotes Augustine but not the early Church Fathers - disciples of the apostles
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve Calvinism is clearly outlined in the Book of Romans. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." continued..
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve continued.."For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." continued....
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
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@cornwallsteve continued... "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" continued....
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve "..Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:11-24
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve There it is laid out for you plain as day. Thank God for the clarity of the Apostle Paul. Seems to me that you put way to much emphasis on the supposed early "church fathers". They are not to be trusted if what they say at all contradicts Scripture remembering that in even the first were there false Christians perverting the Gospel and that the "mystery of iniquity" doth already work in Pauls days.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve Not to mention that there is almost nothing written by the "early church fathers", and what we do have from them is oftentimes proven to be a papal forgery of later centuries. So much speculation and disagreement involving the "church fathers" that I do not see why you wouldn't just throw it all off as hogwash and follow Scripture. The Bible is authoritative, they are not and many of them were corrupted with gnosticism or other heresies.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve Even so, if you think that Augustine was the first to preach the absolute sovereignty of God over his creation then you are sorely mistaken. I do not agree with many things that Augustine wrote but concerning the all important subject of salvation and divine grace he was right on. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." - John 6:65
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? continued....
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@cornwallsteve continued ...... "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." - Romans 8:29-33
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
Servetus was a professional agitator. The inquisition wanted him dead, and demanded his life. Calvin merely wanted to show that although Protestants have no such thing as an "inquisition" heresy would not be allowed to run rampant in Geneva. Servetus was a racial jew whose brothers were jesuit priests, he was a widely known troublemaker and seditionist and he was given his fair share of warnings. I believe the jesuits placed Servetus in Geneva so that Calvin would be forced to make a descision.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
Wow alot of these guys commenting on da vid seem to be rather judgemental and unforgiving towards Calvin and seem to let their anger/hatred towards him and his teaching blind their thinking and reasoning SMH
Palindrome700 1 year ago
watching these men defending their idol - Calvin, is shameful, what part of "love your enemies...bless those who persecute you" did Calvin not understand?
MrRickybecker 1 year ago
Servetus did not deny the deity of Jesus Christ. He would not say "eternal son of God"... but rather Son of the Eternal God. He believed in modalism, that is Jesus is the Father in flesh. Indeed heresy, but he did not deny the deity of Christ.
810suited 1 year ago
@810suited exactly.... this guy in the video couldnt even get this basic fact straight. I wonder why hes there talking abt it to an Audience!
echoesintoeternity 1 year ago
What's with the laughing regarding Servetus? Even if he was a heretic because he denied the trinity laughing over someone who was burned at the stake slowly with green wood to prolong the agony is just plain evil.
You can't justify evil. You people are no better than the Catholics.
Heresies and false teachers need to be exposed and refuted publicly not tortured or burned at the stake.
All I can say is that God knows the truth and any attempts at cover up are pointless.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago 2
Therefore, Calvin was proud to take personal credit for purg[ing] the church of so pernicious a monster [as Servetus].
Writing in 1561 to the Marquis Paet (chamberlain to the King of Navarre), Calvin said, Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the peoples to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.
artanis68 2 years ago
Early Christian church of book of Acts did not deal in violence or murder to spread the gospel or defend their faith...
benadam74 2 years ago
Either way, it was wrong!!
derocdero 2 years ago
It was a political reformation and heresies were punished by death those days like terrorists are destroyed. They were deemed as criminals because they disrupted society.
rowanrox 2 years ago