TGM:The imperfect search for the Perfect Swing

[dillingerexcape87]

all those players do the essential moves that are taught in TGM without actually following TGM. the all have flat left wrists/forward leaning clubshafts imparting descending blows on the ball. They all have tons of lag in their swing. all these elements that ALL good players have in their swings are taught in TGM, whether or not these pros know that they are doing them

[TheNYgolfer]

HUH??? TGM 101 ....there is NO ONE WAY!!! So there is NO PERFECT WAY!!! Read the book you overpriced method teacher!!

[AlexCzervic]

Jim your rambling like you did in your "slot" book. What a useless piece of crap that was and so is this video. Bought and sold it used for 50 cents, but I'll never get that hour of my life back.

Where did you get that perfection baloney regarding TGM? The real power of TGM is the flexibility.

[secretogolf]

Jim - I am not asking this to be a wise guy.In your interview with Sam Snead it seemed you couldn't agree as to how he started his downswing.You felt it was a shift and hip turn and he said it was his arm pulling down with his weight shift and turn simultaneously.Then the tape was cut.How did it all end?

Thanks

[secretogolf]

They all reach proper impact position in a way they are comfortable with.This is the goal of TGM.Never mind The style in which Homer Kelley writes or communicates,he is an engineer and therefor takes a very micro/analytical view in how he exp.concepts. TGM intructors have narrowed concepts presented in the book so that they are pretty basic and easy to understand.TGM gives choices such as Hitting and Swinging,# of power sources and which to use. Ive never heard of an instructor give choices.

[sifurick123]

I believe the top golfer can accomplish this because they have highly attuned sense of hand eye coordination . I suspect that they could probably play other sports well. I don't mean to imply that they could reach super stardom in other sports. The top golfer in their interviews always mention other sport they played well they simply decided to pursue golf.

[claytronica23]

Very interesting discussion here. I won't weigh in on specifics, but I agree with Jim's general premise: There's no single perfect swing, nor does there have to be. I happen to LOVE much of what I've learned from TGM, and I also found Clampett's emphasis on impact position to be spot-on. Truth is, amateurs just about never get their hands in front of the ball and get no compression - so I don't mind simply calling THAT the holy grail for most of us mortals - and all other tweaking can follow.

[silowhore]

because people bodies and minds are unique

[tigermaples]

What is your email address to respond to?

[CastnerGolf]

Great subject Jim. As you know, THe Golfing Machine does not advocate anything. It only explains. All of the players you mentioned adhere to the three imperatives. All have a flat front wrist at impact.

[KOC]

TGM book never talks about the perfect swing....you just can't see wording of perfect swing.....Contrary, Homer said......It's not instant perfection but continuous progress toward a practical goal-mastery of the STAR SYSTEM TRIAD....perfection is virtually unattainable....your heading of the video might not be that good!

Jim Mclean: The Imperfect read for the Golfing Machine!!!!!!

[thegolfpoints]

Pretty unbelievable reading posts.You can feel all the devotees coming running to defend the little yellow book.McLean states he learned from Homer and that he likes it.Most on this thread just hear what they want.Many mistakes in the book. TGM could be the worst written book/manual of all time.Looks impressive to some but to really smart engineers it is laughable.Ben Doyle is a great person but has taught the same pattern to people for 48 years.A trillion combinations but many TGMers choose 1.

[ddahlquist]

@thegolfpoints there have been updates and further study over the last 30 years. However at its CORE, it is right and complete. Science is forever going to disprove information. Yes there are many errors in the book, however there are a few people whom have taken the base information further tested it on tour and won on tour. As I stated in my first post I do get what Jim is saying, I do. He just kicked the hornet nest a touch

[thegolfpoints]

@ddahlquist Agree. TGM in application typically means low left arm at top of shorter swing and little to no lateral motion during swing. Pretty consistent with Elk, Gay, Waite, etc. S and T players tend to look the same, Foley stuff would fit this model pretty well, Lynn Blake, etc. Name a top TGM player with a high left arm at the top of the swing. Lots of TGM coaches teach low left arm and no shift but I can't think of one that teaches lateral motion and Furyk like left arm.

[ddahlquist]

@thegolfpoints the arm and shoulder planes are not the same with Gay and Waite, the same is said with the release types. Furyk's action is explained in TGM.

[thegolfpoints]

@ddahlquist You are right Dana massively different backswings. And I know its all in the book and most the guys teaching S and T aren't teaching a swing.

[awpisano]

@jimmcleanuniversity Still haven't answered my question about Mario's posts. I'm still waiting as we all are...

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@awpisano It was labeled as spam I guess. I just hit unspam. Not sure why that would have happened. Certainly enjoy seeing everyone's comments.

[cmartingolf]

I didn't read the entire list of comments, but I'm surprised about this post. It certainly elicited a series of comments. You took a stand against TGM. While I'm not an AI, the information in the book has helped me as both a player and a teacher and I don't understand where you say, "it has to be perfect?" You clearly have been influenced by the "teacher" applying his "pattern" of the book and not the actual content. Most of my teaching is founded in TGM. I dont teach them "perfect" only better

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@cmartingolf As I stated in the video, I learned from Homer and the many TGM teachers that have worked for me. Have read the book many times. There were mistakes in the book and many have applied the book in a single pattern.

[gmbtempe]

1-2 finishers this week taught by heavily influenced TGM instructors....maybe the book is not dead yet?

[flowerdrop1]

@gmbtempe Toms works with Manzella, who has published an extensive list of flaws with the book. what's your point? oh right, you don't have one

[gmbtempe]

@flowerdrop1 There are flaws in the book? Who knew. BM would tell you he is influenced by TGM. Why are you taking my comments so personal, you even went to my page to trash my swing even though I was working on a drill at the time?

[flowerdrop1]

@gmbtempe you were practicing chicken wing finish? haha

[ddahlquist]

So we have 3D models, Trackman, highspeed film. All of which is made things better. We can actually in a vacum see whats going on. However Jim I think its best said there is a level of artistry to the game that still needs to be processed. I think thats your point. However having said this, saying TGM does not get us closer is false to a degree. This last weekend I ran over a dozen kids and pro level player through trackman. All got better, All..One kid asked why another player was better on his

[ddahlquist]

numbers. Also why his shot pattern was scattered more. Simple answer he had a less stable axis. Being said he has to enable mechanical changes at some point

[David140567]

This is so disingenuous. What a bitter old man ! Obviously you have not understood what TGM is about. Please go back doing one pager tips for Golf Digest instead of wasting our time like that..

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@David140567 Actually have a six pager in this month's issue. Thanks for taking time to watch video and post comment.

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

No comments were deleted by me. All posts are very interesting and many are very passionate. Thanks to all

[metsfan221]

@JimMcLeanUniversity - Where are the comments from golfrealitybymario? I don't see them on here anymore, but read them a few days ago... Can you elaborate on this discrepancy?

[metsfan221]

Lastly, I used to respect you as a teacher. Now, I no longer think that. In fact, because you deleted someone's mere opinion from these comments because they disagreed with your video, you now fall under the header of cowardly instead of maturely defending your viewpoint.

This is sad Mr. McLean. And that is the understatement of the century.

[trillionsofways]

Thanks for your reply...There were many corrections for a number of reasons...some to make it more clear and precise and some to make more complete...and as Mr. Kelly had made changes and updates to the original work...I'm sure there would be more revisions and additions to the book if Mr. Kelly were alive today. From an instructors point of view...I would imagine that a knowledgeable teaching professional would do the same...continue to educate himself or herself throughout their career

[ddahlquist]

Sorry Anthony Kim was TGM as a junior golfer.

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@ddahlquist Anthony worked with several teachers as a child. One was Carl Welty.

[gostros7229]

@flowerdrop1 I saw what you are referring to on his website. They did some good work and its great when things are studied and proven or disproven. Looks as though the "unchallenged greatest live lesson giver on the planet" has some bright guys to collaborate with...... and so modest too : 0

[earthshine2k]

All I know is, the best ball strikers have similar characteristics at impact. Jim, I learned that from you. And, looking at pictures and videos for the past 10 years or so. There is no perfect golf swing. Just perfect impact. That is to say, if the ball does exactly what you want it to do - distance, direction, curvature, trajectory, spin, launch angle, etc. Then that swing was perfect. Who cares what it looks like........

[earthshine2k]

@earthshine2k ...... All a teacher should be trying to do is help the player move through impact in the most efficient manner possible. Maximizing that player's ability to achieve optimal power and clubface alignment for the shot. Whether their hips and shoulders are rotated within 'Tour averages' or their club is on the address shaft plane or the elbow plane, really doesn't matter......

[iacas]

What Jim McLean fails to understand about The Golfing Machine is that it describes virtually EVERY golf swing. There is no "perfect golf swing" and there is no "TGM swing" because virtually EVERY swing is a "TGM swing." TGM even covers the cross-handed grip, and students of TGM guys have won majors and PGA Tour events.

You may have spent a day with Homer Kelley, but it doesn't appear that your memory is very good, or perhaps you didn't listen. That's unfortunate.

[flowerdrop1]

@iacas how many times do you buttknockers have to be told his comments relate to how instructors teach from the book?

[iacas]

@flowerdrop1 Dana seems to be taking care of your responses. No need for mine, except to add that I've yet to meet a TGM instructor who cares or even mentions "the perfect swing."

[iacas]

@flowerdrop1 His comments do not "relate to how instructors teach from the book." He's clear in what he says. And wrong.

[ddahlquist]

My point is can we get some yin and yang for a change. It works both ways

[ddahlquist]

Ok forget the tour how about the 2 top college recruits from the junior ranks in 2006. Both were tgm and Morad players.

[ddahlquist]

There are several players in the last twenty years that were #1 in some ball striking stats that were tgm players

[ddahlquist]

Ok so there is a ton of mud being thrown in several directions. First off I agree to a degree with what his point is, tree

[golfrealitybymario]

this is your attempt to discredit the book with that response? are you attempting to discredit yourself in so doing? if not, then why in the past have you sought out some of the most knowledgable Golfing Machine instructors including the author himself, Mr. Kelley, the first authorized instructor of the Golfing Machine, Ben Doyle, and how can we forget the seminar that you attended with Mac O'Grady!

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@golfrealitybymario I have learned a lot from all those teachers. Some of them do teach a swing but that is not to say that you can't learn from that swing.

[golfrealitybymario]

@JimMcLeanUniversity agreed

[andypatnou]

I think it's more important to look at instructors who work with the average player. Every one gets caught up on what tour players and instructors do. These players and instructors fall in a small percentage. It's about breaking the barrier on how golf is taught to amateurs since they make up a majority of golfers.

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@andypatnou Thanks for comments. I think it is important to look at teachers that have developed players. I have worked with Cristie from the time she was a child, during her junior days, and today.

[flowerdrop1]

I GOOGLED "GOLF MACHINE FLAWS" AND FOUND AN ENTIRE THREAD FROM A SCIENTIST COLLABERATION WITH BRIAN MANZELLA. IT LISTS SEVERAL SCIENTIFICALLY *** PROVEN *** FLAWS WITH THE BOOK. CASE CLOSED ON WHY THEY CAN'T PRODUCE A STUD PLAYER.

[gostros7229]

Jim, I would agree with that.....and they an be an arrogant bunch. However, what about the "no weight shift?" You still haven't answered this question though posted by several. Secondly, Im interested in your answer: why is rickie fowler a great striker of the ball?

[NCHamr228]

@gostros7229 "10-14-E Zero Hip Turn has no turn, slide, or weight shift, and consequently, no knee or foot action..." Jim could be referring to this variation, or the 10-14-C Shiftless Hip Turn which is a free turn in both directions but zero weight shift. Both of those are just variations of the Hip Turn, neither of which are recommended for anything past partial shots.

[mvmac25]

Just saw Jim's latest swing, good pieces TGM, S&T and Morad agree with here: hands in, pressure points, rear leg losing flexion, perfect right foot banking, face square to the arc and tracing the circle.

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@mvmac25 Thanks for comments on swing

[flowerdrop1]

No, Im not familiar with Morgan Pressel. But I am with Nicklaus, Woods, Trevino and Hogan. True GREAT players is what hes talking about. If you TGM pseudo-nerds have it all figured out, why can't you produce a player on that level? And spare me "theyre TGM because they have the components" BS. In that case everyone whoever said "keep your left arm straight" can take credit for them too.

[NCHamr228]

@flowerdrop1 I can't produce any player because i'm not a golf instructor. Trevino and Hogan produced themselves. Nicklaus had been working with Grout since before TGM was published. Tiger is just a freak athlete. He's switched instructors to try and own his swing and save his body. He won multiple majors with Butch and Haney. Any instructor can look good when he's healthy and on his game.

[NCHamr228]

@flowerdrop1 There have been Major champions and players with multiple Tour wins helped by instructors who were TGM influenced. You have to be a darn good player to even win on tour, so that deserves some respect on it's own. all the knowledge in the world means nothing without the proper application. If an instructor like Lynn Blake had a talent like Tiger when he was younger, he could've developed Tiger's swing to be less violent through the ball, saved his body, and helped him to win

[golfrealitybymario]

maybe next time Jim should answer his own questions rather than his marketing directors who created and posted this video!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@golfrealitybymario I did the video.  Can you find the bibliography in TGM?

[golfrealitybymario]

I hope your question is not a joke....with all of the incredible vast swing knowledge of Jim McLean this surprises me. Have you ever heard of Bobby Clampett? or Mac O'Grady? or anyone that has worked with Mike Hebron, Ben Doyle, Mike Bender, Martin Hall, Chuck Cook...all of which who have been TGM influenced, even yourself!? The best ball strikers of all time, who you have studied....Ben Hogan, Lee Trevino, George Knudson, Tony Lema.....all of their swing patterns can be found in the book

[flowerdrop1]

@golfrealitybymario NONE of their swings can be found in "the book" because the "science" is WRONG.

[golfrealitybymario]

@flowerdrop1 I have spoken with Aaron Zick, the physicist that consults with Brian Manzella, on numerous occasions. I have also spoken with Brian about the findings on TGM in the past few years. I know the science well, and all three of us agree that SOME of the science is wrong, not ALL of it. Almost all of the innacurate findings are things not able to be discerned without modern techniology. The basics are there.

[golfrealitybymario]

@flowerdrop1 Now, since you are such an expert on the "science" that you know to be innacurate, why don't you care to elaborate a little for us on where to look for these innacuracies in the book and why those points are incorrect.

and please, don't use google like you did the first time you went looking for some information on TGM, such as Brian's forum. Let's hear a little of your knowledge off the top of your head.

[nektnarg]

TGM is not complete. between 1968 and 1983 there were 6 editions. Should be in the 20's by now. I do not believe many of the alignments are clearly understood by even the best instructors. TGM needs a lot of additions to the pivot, few beyond Ben Doyle hav demonstrated good understanding of this.

[gostros7229]

of them haven't read most of it and understand even less of it......this could have been a great discussion if you had the facts right. Pick on hinge action, "plane", dead still heads at all costs, or closed minded instructors...... but a "perfect swing?" or "no weight shift?" ....what are you talking about?

[gostros7229]

Jim, maybe you should be a little more specific......what does TGM hasn't produced a great golfer mean??? That's just dumb....and why play the fox? You know as well as anyone that TGM isn't a method or that it doesn't teach no weight shift. Try again and say "why is rickie fowler one of the best players in the world and never "on plane" as tgm would describe it?" or one of many other good ones. Guys that teach an inflexible 2 or 3 highlights of the book are idiots and most

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@gostros7229 I would say that many that apply TGM apply it in a method like fashion

[trillionsofways]

The teacher and the player create great players...not a book....the book only gives the teacher a clear understanding of the swing and the many ways to create good impact alignments...which is where the rubber meets the road....so to speak.  The teacher then can take his or her knowledge and reproduce it in a simple way. It's a great resource to the teacher......the TGM is not the end all in golf instruction....but it a darn good start.

[trillionsofways]

Jim,

There is no perfect swing. There are ones that are more efficient than others. As Tin Cup stated...perfection is unattainable. As I hope you know from spending time with Homer Kelly...his book does not teach a method. And to imply it is just not accurate...also to imply that there is no weight shift in a centered motion is not accurate as well. And there are tournament winners and major tournament winners employing the geometric alignments that are in Homer Kelly's Book.

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@trillionsofways Thanks for the comments The original book was not that accurate thus the series of revisions and changes over the years. Can you find the bibliography in the book to find Homer's sources?

[flowerdrop1]

He's saying INSTRUCTORS who teach from the book think there's a perfect swing, THE INSTRUCTORS. And yet they've never produced a great player. How can that be if there's a perfect swing? Simple argument he makes. Stop butchering it.

[ddahlquist]

@flowerdrop1 Really, then why did some of the best Junior players come from TGM & Morad teachers. One of mine was the 1 & 2 ranked player in the US with Lovemark. There are over twenty plus guys on tour ive played with over the years. They are just better over all PLAYERS. Not much else. Or James Oh won the US Junior worked with Mac, won a Nationwide at age 20. Anytime there is anything TGM or Stack, you chime in..Its always bashing..

[airgolf007]

You are dead wrong. Homer Kelley stated himself:

Feel no concern for the PERFECT STROKE. There are trillions of

precision patterns with totally correct alignments and relationships, perfect for some application or preference.

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

The original question is why after 43 years has the book not created a great player?

[airgolf007]

@JimMcLeanUniversity

Brian Gay isn't good enough for you??

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@airgolf007 Has Brian ever been a top ball striker on tour? He putts it often but has worked with quite a few teachers over the years. Not developed by TGM.

[airgolf007]

Brian Gay isn't good enough for you? 

[rok78]

@JimMcLeanUniversity

I think it's because TGM is a book about the golf swing and a great swing and ball striker does not equal a great player. So in that sense I think your original question is a bit flawed.

[NCHamr228]

Didn't Jim recently come out with a Golf Digest article discussing 'throwers' and 'draggers'? That's strange, because TGM discusses Swingers and Hitters. But it also is a religion of making a perfect swing? Every great golf stroke in the history of the game can be broken down into components in TGM. But that same book also preaches a 'method'??

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@NCHamr228 Thanks for reading article and your comments. I don't think that the swing can simply be broken down into types of players. Throwers and draggers were just two types of swings.

[NCHamr228]

@JimMcLeanUniversity TGM deals in the Laws of Physics, Motion, and Geometry, and relates them to the Golf Stroke. To move something(in this case, the golf club), you can either Pull something(Swinging) or Push something(Hitting) or in the case of a Four-Barrel Hitter, Pull and then Push. It doesn't have types of players. You can play the game however you want, but to move the golf club, you either have to Pull it or Push it.

[NCHamr228]

The entire reason I started reading The Golfing Machine was because it doesn't advocate any swing 'method'. It contains components that can make up over ten trillion stroke patterns. Presenting that many options is the exact opposite of having any sort of 'method'. The Golfing Machine has Three Imperatives and Three Essentials to a sound golf stroke, but they're things that pretty much all golf instructors discuss in their own teachings. TGM is an encyclopedia, not a bible.

[flowerdrop1]

isn't that where that stack and tilt crap came from?

[NCHamr228]

@flowerdrop1 Stack and Tilt came from two instructors who developed their own 'method' and were influenced by TGM. The book itself has no one way to swing a golf club. It gives you the components to build your own.

[favcity]

Hi Mr. McLean. I think you are mis-representing TGM as "the perfect way," to people who mostly will never read the book as I have several times. My thought is that you are simply drumming up business. Disappointing. TGM is a list of hundreds of differing swings maybe thousands each described by components that match or do not from an engineering point of view.

[flowerdrop1]

@favcity why not answer the man's question: if you buttknockers have it all figured out, how come no one's ever been great doing it?

[NCHamr228]

@flowerdrop1 Been great doing what? Having their Right Forearm On Plane at Impact? Lee Trevino did that. Focused on maintaining a Stationary Head? Jack Nicklaus did that. Utilized Extensor Action? Moe Norman did that. Maintained a Flat Left Wrist at Impact? Almost all great players do that. Had great Balance? Most great players do. Have great Rhythm in their strokes? The great ones do. All of the greatest players in the game have components as discussed in The Golfing Machine.

[gmbtempe]

@flowerdrop1 Because there is no single way of doing it! Its like saying everyone who is on the elbow plane is TGM, or everyone who uses a reverse loop is TGM, TGM mechanics are actually in just about every swing. It just relates swing components, geometry and physics and now it works within the golf swing.

[flowerdrop1]

@gmbtempe still dodging the question. here's the score: TGM/Stack majors = 0, rest of the world majors = several hundred

[gmbtempe]

@flowerdrop1 Are you asserting that TGM teachers have not taught anyone with majors? I would check to see who Vijay Singh did work with back in 98', and David Toms back in the late 90's. Also Steve Elkington comes to mind, you know the guy that everyone said had the best swing on tour that McLean neglected to mention. There are more, I think you know it.

[NCHamr228]

@flowerdrop1 Steve Elkington and Morgan Pressel are just two Major champions whose instructors (Ben Doyle and Martin Hall respectively) are TGM influenced

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@NCHamr228 Pretty sure Elkington didn't work with Doyle growing up

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@favcity I spent time with Homer and learned from him. Thanks for comments

[ImperfectGolfer]

@JimMcLeanUniversity

You are unfairly misrepresenting the TGM book. It is not designed to create a perfect golf swing - it simply allows golfers to choose sound golf swing mechanical/geometrical principles to construct a sound golf swing (within the limitations of their personal physique, body flexibility and athleticism).

[gmbtempe]

If TGM is a catalog of movements that make up the golf swing how can it be a "method"? Isn't it exactly the opposite? You can mix and match to thousand of different swings. I don't see how explaining the difference between a steep and flat plane, or making say a double shift, or reverse loop, is advocating a method.

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@gmbtempe Thanks for comments. I would say that many of people using the book apply it in a very limited way.

[jkpassage]

Oh, let me add this: I was told a year ago from a Stack & Tilt disciple that if I couldn't do Stack & Tilt, I simply couldn't play golf. Did someone tell that to Aaron Baddeley? He's not doing too bad right now on tour!

[JimMcLeanUniversity]

@jkpassage Badds has certainly gone the other direction and thanks

[gmbtempe]

@jkpassage Thats an insane approach by whoever made that statement, if they were advocating a Earnest Jones way of swinging, a Jim McLain way, etc...I would run from that teacher no matter how good they were. "Teacher" may be too strong a word.

[jkpassage]

Jim, thanks for the video. For the past 2 years, I have been searching for that "perfect" golf swing that I can repeat over and over again. I swallowed TGM and had MORAD and S&T instructors. I couldn't do "it" their way. Fortunately, I am now with a teacher who teaches like you do and very thankful.

[Kdsprecher]

great stuff.