The notion of Sola Scriptura CAN be maintained, PROVIDED we recall the PRICELESS testimony of St Irenaeus,whose words can be anachronistically TWISTED to serve a doctrine that was NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED by the E.C.F's. Any notion of an interpretation of Scripture that varied from the "Rule of Faith" delivered to the churches of Apostolic foundation was anathematized FOR THAT REASON! AFTER ALL,Tradition is the word "written on the heart" by God and preserved by the Holy Spirit for ALL TIME! GOT MILK?
If the manner and meaning of the "breaking of the bread" is corrupted,then Divine revelation, ITSELF, has failed its singular purpose and God has failed His covenant pledge to His Church. If there is no historic Eucharist,THEN, according to the Scriptures,THERE IS NO HISTORIC GOSPEL! (and the Milky Way galaxy turns into jello pudding!)
"That you may know how to behave yourselves in the house of God,the CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND MAINSTAY OF THE TRUTH" (1Tim 3:15)
"Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church,AND THE GATES OF HELL WILL NEVER PREVAIL AGAINST IT" (Matt 16:18) (oooh! the inconvenience of Scripture!!)
@09Brant Hey Buddy! Ya know..what can i say? Poor Kenny has a very myopic view of Divine revelation. First of all,he talks about a Bible,in its complete form,THAT DIDNT EVEN EXIST in the 1st century...the recognized "canon" came later. the REAL problem,which I see with the most ardent detractors of "Popery",is a very private SELFISH VIEW of Christianity bent on a very narcissistic and CULTIC view of those who dont agree with their "vision". Trying to reason with them is a WASTE OF TIME! GBU!
If God chose to preserve the redeeming truth of the Gospel in a purely or exclusively written form, what provision for repentance and faith did He leave behind for the multitudes of blind and illiterate people before the invention of the printing press?I dont think the God "who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim 2:4) would have failed to provide an obviously needed alternative to an exclusively written form of saving truth. HE DIDN'T!! ASK ST IRENAEUS!!
If we agree that the sacraments are not just "signs" of faith but "living signs" of God's covenant presence with His people, then it's necessary to RE-EVALUATE the evangelical understanding of works.Human works nullify the basis for God's merciful intervention on behalf of helpless sinners BUT can the same thing be said about Divine works? Can God's "works" nullify God's grace? The sacraments DO have power in themselves because of the priesthood of Christ at work BUT they STILL require faith!
The romans, both pagan and papal attacked Gods' temple. Pagan rome destroyed the jerusalem temple, Papal rome removed Christ from his seat as mediator, " CASTING THE TRUTH TO THE GROUND" (daniel 8:12)...to which a priesthood of man, mary and the roman catholic church stands between GOD and people ..as the way to heaven..instead of the TRUTH..in which salvation is found..JESUS: "I am the way, the truth and the life..no one comes unto the FATHER but by ME".
In context, the tradition Irenaeus refers to is identical to that taught in Scripture, not something different. Catholic apologists try to take him out of context, to refer to some separate body of oral tradition - not so.
Cyprian, Origen, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Firmilian, and Augustine, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Cyril and Gregory of Nyssa all held to the principle of Sola Scriptura, Reformers simply restored the patristic view.
@kenrich777 None of the Church Fathers held to Sola Scriptura. This old chestnut crops up time and time again. Since the NT as we know it didnt come together until the second half of the fourth century, any reference they made to Scripture would be the Septuagint. Both Origen and Tertullian left the True Faith, Augustine could never make his mind up, so at least 3 of those you refer to are generally treated with caution, to put it mildly.
It suffices for any HONEST SOUL,having read the 2nd 3rd and 4th chapters of Book III of St Irenaus' great work, "Against Heresies" to clearly perceive the marriage BY GOD of the pre-eminent authority of the Gospels handed down to us WITH the succession of bishops in those churches founded by the Apostles LIKEWISE PERSERVED.The truth is not to be found outside the Catholic Church, being the "field" in which God has placed the treasure of the faith. Heresies CAN NOT BE TRACED BACK TO THE APOSTLES!
@MrJhb211 St Irenaeus ALSO refers to those who disregard the "Rule of Faith" handed down by the Apostles to the various churches which they built up and organized AND where the succession of bishops is to be found as "THIEVES AND ROBBERS" St Irenaeus CLEARLY sees a bond between Scripture AND Tradition. He witnesses to the fact that the heretics of his day rejected BOTH ! Like everything else pertaining to the Divine purpose THAT VERY OFFICE of bishop has a CONSTANT PRESENCE UNTIL THIS DAY!
Thank you so much. I have long been a 'truth' seeking christian and believe that all you have said is accurate and correct. After years of my own study, there is no doubt.
What is the link that connects the Apostolic Church with the Church of today? THE LITURGY! What did Jesus command? "Do this in commemoration of me" (Luke 22:19) What does the Scripture say about Divine commands? The word that goes forth from the mouth of God "will not return to Him void without FIRST accomplishing that for which it was sent AND IT SHALL PROSPER in its doing" (Isa 55:11) the conclusion? the Liturgy will be celebrated continuously until the end of time! (1Cor 11:26) SIMPLE, RIGHT?
@MrJhb211 As a postscript to my previous submission, has there EVER been a time in the history of the Church in which the Eucharist was NOT celebrated?...in which the real PHYSICAL presence of Christ in the Eucharist was NOT acknowledged or the sacrificial nature of the act itself was NOT UPHELD? WOW! Looks like God,once again, knows how to keep His word!! WHY NOT? He's the Rock of our salvation!
I just responded to the latest round of posts directed at me - PLEASE STOP POSTING TO ME - I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS.
I do not agree with the RCC's or OC's unBiblical doctrines, their disregard for the word of God, their hatred of Bible believers, and the elevation of themselves and their traditions above God's word.
If you don't like my nonconformity to your views, I'm sorry, but I will follow Christ and the Bible, not popes and councils. PLEASE STOP POSTING TO ME
@kenrich777 Hi, let me just correct your earlier post after Paul gave you yet another history lesson that you simply have to need to be in denial about; you have to.
"..but I will follow Christ and the Bible...."
No, you will follow "your views of what", Christ "is to you" and "your interpretation of what the" Bible, "says to me".
@09Brant You follow the views of what the Pope is to you and what the catechism is to you.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
Some people at this video site need to GET A LIFE! (or better yet..A DICTIONARY!!) Y is asking our "RESIDENT SCHOLARS" for verbatim citations from source documents like asking satan to drink HOLY WATER?? Asking T-Rex to go VEGETARIAN? I could teach a CIRCUS CHIMP to use a dictionary. A SLOW CHIMP! How slow u ask? The little fella is taking a remedial class in BANANA PEELING over at BONZO STATE COLLEGE! GOOD NIGHT AND GOD BLESS!
@MrJhb211 Why don't you provide what you demand from everyone else. I can't recall you ever providing anything but slurs, insults, and your own opinions.
I have at least provided links to discourses and references too big to fit in these small comment boxes. Even making multiple comments to include references to original sources like on the assumption fiasco. EXAMPLE (See Henry Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma (London: Herder,1954), pp. 66-69; ...
Without the Eucharist,YOU DON'T HAVE ETERNAL LIFE! Without the Divine Liturgy, you DON'T HAVE CHRIST AS YOUR MEDIATOR,ADVOCATE AND HIGH PRIEST! Without the Magisterium, YOU DONT HAVE THE NEW TESTAMENT! Without the Papacy,you have license,disorder, and confusion.. NOT the obedience of faith! Claim anything you want to! Quote ALL the Scripture verses you have memorized! Drink from the keg of anti-Popish source materials UNTIL YOU'RE BLUE IN THE FACE! TRUTH IS TRUTH! ( with much love and respect!)
@MrJhb211 .....eucharist saves you ?..BLASPHEMOUS....So you are saying that this blasphemous act of a priest changing a cracker into CHRIST is what saves a man?..again your ."casting the truth to the ground i see". If a priest stands in mediation of sin BETWEEN GOD AND MAN..has that not taken the place of CHRIST..as high priest..in which HE is the mediator..the BOOK says JESUS SAT DOWN..never to be OFFERED AGAIN..he is the ONLY MEDIATOR. Accept Christ anywhere, anytime for salvation.
@MrJhb211 Where are your "verbatim citations from source documents" for these ridiculous and blasphemous claims. You demand them from everyone else - where are yours???
Here's a verbatim quote from your illustrious leader doing away with faith in Christ for salvation: "...will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith ("Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope," Zenit, Nov. 30).
Salvation is not in Christ alone? See John 14:6 No one comes to the Father except through me...
@kenrich777 hello i think we're all here missing the most important point! remember the theif on the cross? he didn't have time to do research and post comments like those here at youtube.There was no catechism or rituals either. God,nevertheless, gave him the grace to acknowledge his sin and need for salvation and recognize Christ as his Savior There's too many judgments being passed here. that's God's job! ithink we need to recognize and respect each others space and faith commitment.! thx
@hoipolloi54 Hey Jim! Welcome back.we miss ya! ! We're dealing here with a challenged gentleman who complains about people posting him BUT he wont shut up. He claims NOW that he's NOT the "arbiter"of truth BUT he can't seem to stop making arbitrary judgments about things he has no real understanding of. I tried with this guy BUT to no avail! I would CERTAINLY respect "his space and faith commitment" IF he wasn't obsessed with violating the space and faith of others! God bless you,friend!
@MrJhb211 You have insulted me, called me a liar, misrepresented my positions, told me I wasn't a Christian. I asked you to stop posting to me about a dozen times but you wouldn't stop with the ad hominen attacks and now you are say I am violating the space and faith of others?
Excuse me, but you have been the one issuing challenges and goading me into responding to your allegations and insults. When I do you cry foul? I ask you again, please stop posting to me and about me.
@MrJhb211 hello. i really dont see the point in beating a dead horse which is what I see taking place here. i can only speak for myself here in terms of my own experience i strayed from the true path for a long time but God brought me back. this is why I can easily relate to the thief on the cross..no excuses,no drama. i recognized my guilt and need for Christ and he restored me whole. i cannot and will not judge another man's walk with the Lord Thank you and God bless you too!
@hoipolloi54 "Beating a dead horse "INDEED! If someone here is incorrigible, I leave him to God Ur ABSOLUTELY RIGHT also about this being an anger issue with Kenny. The most scurrilous attacks against the Church here have come from angry "ex-Catholics" The SINCERE evangelicals I've encountered have ALWAYS shown a willingness to ponder the issues I have made and accept Scriptural challenges when offered, (NOT act like spoiled brats!) IN SPITE OF STRONG DISAGREEMENT! GBU!
@MrJhb211 First off I'm not an ex-Catholic. Secondly, you are the one stirring up anger with your ad hominen attacks like - liar, reprobate, non Christian, and now incorrigible spoiled brat.
I asked you nicely to stop posting about me and here you are calling me a spoiled brat. Is this your idea of a mature discussion, or debate? I have told you at least a dozen times - I don't have time for this, and I lost interest in talking to you long ago. PLEASE STOP POSTING TO ME OR ABOUT ME...
@kenrich777 LOOK PAL! I'll make a 1 exception to my rule about not posting U anymore! Ur the one who keeps posting me NOT vice versa! As far as ur demand to not post about you and ur info, U don't know me very well.right? ILL POST ANYTHING I WANT WHENEVER I WANT! I dont require ur pontifical revue.YOUR HOLINESS! As long as u or others post insults and trash about my faith,IM GOING TO RESPOND,GOT IT? I thought U were TOO BUSY and didn't have time 4 this ANYWAY! U tell a lie AND I'LL REPLY.OK?
@MrJhb211 And here you go again with more insults and unChristian behavior. I ask you again, PLEASE STOP POSTING TO ME. I really, sincerely, don't have time for this. Every minute I spend here drags me away from more important things. I have borne long and patiently with you - ENOUGH.
@hoipolloi54 The thief on the cross simply makes my point above. Faith in Christ was all he had, but he was saved. He didn't need the the eucharist, divine liturgy, the magisterium, the papacy, or any of the things @MrJhb211 adds to faith in Christ for salvation...
The whole point of scripture and of Christianity is to lead a person to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Should I be judged for expressing Biblical faith? What about respecting my space and faith commitment?
@kenrich777 what can I say with diplomacy? You and i have to listen to our conscience and the voice of others as well. I detect the real issue with you is anger and disillusioment with the church. I understand! i had the same anger but realized that it distracted me from what was important the result was i made a lot of mistakes and lost a lot of time. it could have been worse. thank God it wasn't! i really hope you give this matter the prayer and reflection that it deserves. God bless you
@hoipolloi54 I have no issue with the true Church as defined by the Bible. The people who truly believe and are sealed with the Spirit of God.
However, I do have a problem with the false Church, so does God, and he says he will destroy it. In love he gives a warning to come out... (Rev. 17-18).
If that's a problem for you, please take it up with God. I don't have time to waste on more discussions here, my duty is discharged - please stop posting to me...love and respect...
part 2 ..the 1st church that was established then was and is the BORN AGAIN JEWISH CHURCH. Why do you think that the apostle Paul stated..BUT he is a JEW ,which is one INWARDLY, ...now saying that, of course he was speaking of the jewish nation proclaiming their right to salvation, and of course Paul corrected them..BUT he still used the true BASE of GODS' church ...JEWISH !!...he didnt say you have to be ROMAN CATHOLIC, or ORTHODOX or BAPTIST, or any others...JEWISH of heart..BORN AGAIN .
the true church is the 1st church established by Christ and his 12 disciples..in which is the BORN AGAIN church in which is 1st established unto what people?...THE JEWISH CHURCH!...period..no other answer for this at all. To go against it is to go directly against GODS' word itself. the gospel was 1st preached to the JEWISH peoples...then the gentiles...so this completely eliminates the roman catholic church as the church Christ founded or any other church by name or denomination.
Dozens of clear and plain verses stating unequivocally Jesus is a man, the son of the living God;himself having many opportunities to explain this "mystery" and yet stated emphatically that he was a man and that there is only one good - God. Calling us brothers and him servant to man - and only a few verses that have to be stretched and twisted requiring a scholar or priest to explain (the unexplainable) to pull the rabbit out of the mystery hat (1+1+1= 1)
The RCC required confession that Jesus is God at the point of a sword. Why, Dave Hunt, knowing all this about the RCC, do you not see the Mystery of the Tri-une God? I humbly submit that Jesus Christ had to be a man, tempted of all things yet he resisted the Adversary and remained sinless. By definition a God cannot die and cannot be tempted. Why would he try to confuse by turning himself into a baby and pulling such a charade that the RCC declares that he did?
@09Brant One brief note on the doctrine of "justification by faith alone" It is NOT a question of whether or not the words "faith alone" can't be used CORRECTLY. THEY CAN. The problem arose from Luthers understanding of the nature of justification and the resulting alteration in the proper understanding of "justifying faith" that was required THAT WAS THE ISSUE! (not the mere words used themselves that explained the Church's spirited and essential response!)
@09Brant No I was talking about hoipolloi. i think he wisely ignores the trivial pursuits. After all, like a cancer survivor, U no longer find the patience or will to allow distractions in ur life. My preoccupation is with a never exhausted number of Catholics who R easily misled by false history and theology and scandalized by current events where there is no alternate sources of info. The cults can claim numerous "former Catholics" among their adherents because of a deficient catechism!
@MrJhb211 that's a good point, and I'm glad you brought it up. Good that you stick around here to help steer the way a bit more. I've certainly learned from your posts as well.
@kenrich777 - Do you know how to use a bible search tool. Search for Peter and Cephas. Then search for all the other apostles names. It's pretty simple. Search for lists of the apostles. Find another cure before Peter's in Acts? Find another gentile converted before Acts 10? Show me a place where a question is asked of the group outside of Matt 16, John 6, Acts 2, Acts 4 where someone else answers? U can't find where Jesus pays Peters tax or prays for him singularly? U don't know ur bible.
@imromancatholic Luke 22:24-26...arguing over who was the greatest and none considered Peter a pope or greater than the others.
Eph. 5:23-25 shows that Christ is the only head of the church, not Peter or a pope.
Peter wasn't infallible, or celibate, or a pope. He was an apostle to the Jews (Galatians 2.7-9), and a fallible married man. He denied Christ (Matthew 26.33-35, 69-75), was a busybody (John 21.15-22), and was rebuked by Paul over legalism (Galatians 2.11-14).
You are reading what you want into some verses and ignoring others to make Peter into something he wasn't. Yes, he was one of the big three apostles, a great man, prominent - but not a pope, and not infallible.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@kenrich777 - Again you throw around the term infallible like we think that everything the Pope says and does is right. You still have Peter 1&2 in your bible so you evidently think that when Peter wrote scripture he was infallible. I.e. you believe in a limited infallibility for him.
@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@kenrich777 I did read some of the links you sent me, but sorry, I don't feel the same way. I believe you to have selective one track thinking, prefer to continue to believe what you have all along.
I can give you links and sites too, for what? You're mind is made up and you feel the same about me.
-But tell me, as I still wait: How did God see fit to wait until the 1500's to enlighten us that all we Christians need is the Scriptures "alone"?
@09Brant I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@09Brant I took time to address those specific questions but you ignored my answers and clung to the fairy tale history Rome built on known forgeries like the Donation of Constantine (Google It). The ECF's were already addressed too - I can use them to prove Protestant doctrines but don't need to, since ours are in the Bible. I have already disproved Rome with them - Rome cherry picks the ECF's.
Can you read? Is their some part of "I don't have time for this" that you don't understand?
@kenrich777 Ha, Ken but you seem to have enough time to drop your two cents with falsified historical details on here.
Ken, your religion of Bible.."alone" came 1500 years after Christ established a governing Church for His people! There are thousands of Bible ..."alone" sects among us, yet not two of you agree on all topics. This is fact #1.
Christianity was around for 350 years at least before the cannon of the NT was determined, Ken!
@09Brant You are willfully ignorant and it does absolutely no good for me to waste time casting perils before swine. You will not let go of your false paradigm and brainwashing, no matter how many times you are refuted. STOP WASTING MY TIME
@kenrich777 Yeah, I'm "wasting your time", but apparently I'm giving you something to second guess as you continue to post me, friend.
I can give you site after site too, will it really change your mind?
"Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still". I'm dealing with that method of logic with you, as -with all respect- all you Bible ..."alone" Evengelical's are of the same thinking and (il)logic. That's pretty frightening. When you're de-programmed, we'll talk. Thank u.
@09Brant Hey Brant! I checked out his "carm.org" on "sola scriptura' and "sola fide",WHY I DONT KNOW! Once again, a fabric of statements made out of context and the standard evangelical diatribe on faith and works with predictable results. ONE surprising admission that the Scriptures belong to the Church (WOW! There's hope!) but, for the most part, the same laundry. how are things going at home? I've been slaving away at my job Have U heard from Jim? He hasn't posted for a while. Give me a ring!
@MrJhb211 Only the deceived define Church as RCC, and reject the Bible definition. In the first centuries Catholic meant universal (not Roman), and all Bishops shared authority. There was no Bishop of Bishops over all Christendom, only Christ as head of the Church with Bishops having local authority and accountability to the local elders and flock. The Papacy was a late development, built on lies and forgeries, as every intellectually honest scholar acknowledges.
@09Brant I have wasted over a week refuting you, only to have you stay in denial. Forgeries were used to bring the Popes to power as admitted in the Catholic Encyclopedia, The ECF's used the Bible alone, and rejected Papal primacy - only by misrepresenting them by quoting out of context. do Catholic apologists deceive people. Apostolic succession is a joke, since besides having no scriptural support, history proves it false with Popes you contradict each other and commit atrocities.
@kenrich777 Yeah, you have sooo "refuted" me, that you are going around in circles, tippy toe, saying the same things: Pointing me to one sided commentary, because it's too ridiculous for even you to believe to answer me outright.
But whatever helps you sleep at night.
As for the ECF's using the Bible alone? WHAT!? Ah, what exactly are you reading?
Protestanism is unhistorical and your Bible "alone" theory is completely unBiblical.
@09Brant Hey buddy! A grade school child could read the N.T. and see the position God gave St.Peter among the 12 AND WHY! We R NOT Roman Catholics! We R Catholics. The term "Roman Catholic" was the invention of Protestants. NOW, these unhappy gerbils are accusing US of having invented this false label WHAT'S FOR DESSERT? I mentioned the "MINIMAL" impact the false decretals had on the growth of Papal temporal power and the molehill becomes MT EVEREST! WHAT'S THE USE? What's new? GBU!
@MrJhb211 LOL, "gerbils"...oh, man, you and Paul crack me up. Paul is so miles ahead of these "born-again's" that when he refutes them it's so over their heads they don't even see the sarcasm. Your one-liners are side spliting...yet, when they try and mix it up with you, you're right back toe-to-toe w/ them.
Look, I mean NO disrespect to my good Protestant friends, but honestly I think it's the frog in the boiling water syndrome, or like a gas leak...they've become exposed and don't know it.
@09Brant You hit the nail on the head, Bro! I will NOT engage in an indictment of Evangelicals, just the errors and prejudices of the few. I could give u a list of names of Evangelicals who were and ARE loved because of their sincere commitment to Christ who never had the time or patience to engage in this type guttural attack against the Church. Outside of his personal dishonesty, if Dave Hunt could show me the same love 4 Jesus that Corrie ten Boom or Mother Teresa had, I MIGHT give him a nod!
@09Brant The ANNOYING problem Ken has is clearly illustrated by his recourse to the E.C.F's on "the Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture" 1st of all, has he EVER read the writings of the E C.F.'s or is his "knowledge" obtained EXCLUSIVELY from websites? This is the SAME GUY who accuses me of being a heretic on the basis of a de fide statement he couldn't even be bothered to read CORRECTLY! I TRIED! The "egg" of Scripture must have it's nest in the Church or it get's SCRAMBLED! GBU!
@MrJhb211 I go by scripture alone, since all the doctrines I believe in are all contained there. But since Catholics go by tradition, and quote the ECF's out of context and misrepresent them, I thought it would be good to point people to an article that shows what the ECF's really said. If you can't handle the truth, that's not my problem. Cling to fairy tales, forgeries, and lies - that's your choice.
MrJhb211 Was it not you who said that Sola Scriptura was invented by Protestants in the 15th century. I provided proof that the Reformers simply returned to a Patristic principle of the Apostolic fathers. I provided something that both you and Brant have been screaming doesn't exist. I do not need to recourse to ECF's to prove my beliefs, they are in the Bible. I reference them only to prove you misrepresent them and history. Yes - I bet that is annoying!
@09Brant It's in the links that you didn't bother to look through. For anyone reading that actual wants the truth here is an article on "The Church Fathers and the Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture" christiantruth(dot)com/scriptureandchurchfathers(dot)html
I spent a week answering you outright. Now I'm going to ask you politely one last time. Stop posting to me, stop wasting my time, I have no interest in any more fruitless discussions with you. Love and respect.
@09Brant There's ANOTHER boondoggle 4 YA! The C.C. has NEVER officially stated that the "rock" referred to in Matt 16:18 is SOLELY a reference to Peter! The E.C.F's had a VARIETY of interpretations of Matt 16:18 in regard to the question of "who" or "what" the rock is that Christ said He would build His Church on AND CORRECTLY SO! ALL the Scriptural possibilities were meant to be comprehended TOGETHER as an alternative to an ERRONEOUS understanding that sees Peter here WITHOUT QUALIFICATION! GB!
@09Brant I keep posting because you can't take a hint or even a pointed and clear request. Stop posting to me, stop making false statements and false accusations, STOP WASTING MY TIME with UNBIBLICAL and HISTORICALLY INACCURATE propaganda and lies.
You are willfully ignorant and it does absolutely no good for me to waste time casting pearls before swine. You will not let go of your false paradigm and brainwashing, no matter how many times you are refuted. STOP WASTING MY TIME
@kenrich777 ..how did early Christians worship before the NT came about? And even after the NT was in print, NOBODY challenged the authority of His Church until the earliest..1300's. So nobody knew what they were talking about, nope, not a clue. Then along comes a monk, Martin Luther who tells us we just need the Scriptures...Is this really what you want to follow? Do You even know why you follow it?
@09Brant They worshiped the same way they do now - in spirit and in truth. Not by rosaries and veneration of Mary.
STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@kenrich777 ...well at least you got that right..Thanks. We most absoluetly "venerate" and adore Mary, not "worship" as many "Indie Evengelical's" have to make themselves believe.
And by the way, Chester, this ..."truth" that you refer to all the time is subjective at best for the Bible.."alone" (unBiblical , unhistorical by the way) sect out there. gave you examples of how and why Scripture alone is the biggest Satanic blinder, but you just keep reinforcing Prot interpretation of Catholicism.
@09Brant Hey Brant! How's ur Friday? I get a little annoyed with this recourse to "links""LINKS?" I had some with breakfast this morning (2 eggs sunnyside -up,hash browns and a slice of toast) If i need more "links" I could always post FARMER JOHN! Now, Capt. Happy Hour is going to Orthodox sources to support the idea that Papal Primacy is a myth. U see Y I keep asking these people to do their OWN READING of the Scriptures and the E.C.F.'s? AM I THE ONLY PROTESTANT AT THIS SITE? GBU!
@09Brant You worship Mary but call it veneration - that's just semantics.
The pronouncements of Pope's are not only unauthoritative, but actually ridiculous. For instance two infallible Popes condemned the assumption of Mary as Gnostic heresy, and one supposedly infallible Pope made it official dogma. One Pope set the stinking corpse of his predecessor on a throne in Papal vestments and condemned him by trial. You accuse us of being unBiblicall and unhistorical?
@kenrich777 Prove to me from a Prot stand point how I "worship" Mary. More, typical Protestant replies...how old are you?
The RCC are merely codifying a belief that has ALWAYS existed in the Church regarding the Assumption of Mary, friend.
The RCC did this in 325 when She defined the doctrine of the Trinity or in 382 when She determined the cannon of the Bible. But , nah, no "born-again" thinks the RCC "invented" the Trinity or the Bible, huh?
@09Brant I already pointed out to you that even your own scholars have backpedaled on that date for the cannon because the source is a known forgery - why do you keep using it?
I'm sorry Ken, you've offered no substancial proof or evidence regarding any "forgery" or "backpedaling" of any type.
I know of no Tradition that is in violation of Scripture, remembering that RC's believe Scripture AND Tradition, NOT Scripture "VS" Tradition. If Scripture doesn't mention something this is why we have the ECF's, the Didache, and Church Tradition/ history.
I've given you one example below regarding the "dogma" of Mary's Assumption, Immaculate Conception.
@09Brant Already dealt with you ignored the link. @09Brant PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME. If you refuse to believe the truth from the sources I point you to and your Bible, you won't believe it from me (Matthew 7:6).
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@kenrich777 - You only need to stop wasting your own time. Noone is forcing you to read his posts or continue to post your distortions on this site. Nor will we force you to take a deep and objective look at our arguements. You are afraid of them and so you never really consider them. You can't even go to scripture and examine for yourself whether Peter was truly the leader of the 12 based on the evidence provided. You are no Berean.
@imromancatholic STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@imromancatholic STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@09Brant STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@09Brant STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
they lying or mislead? What about the Apostles ..same thing?
-Then what about Luther -who acknowledged the authority of the Papcy in his 95 Theses, (a lot of Prot's don't discuss that). He was right, and they were all wrong.
I just want you to say it. And please don't answer my question with another question.
@09Brant Can you read? Is their some part of "I don't have time for this" that you don't understand?
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@kenrich777 - So I take it you don't have 1 & 2 Peter in your Bible. Again you throw up a straw man infallibility and then shoot it down. Bravo. You pass anti-catholicism and bigotry but fail at logic and proper debate. We don't say that peter was infallible in everything he did. Stop posting nonsense.
@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@kenrich777 - Being the leader is not about being the greatest. Again you ignore what the bible says and come up with your own red herring argument. Where does it say leaders should never be rebuked?
@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@kenrich777 You clearly have a very low view of the Apostolic order. Whatever else he may have been he was chosen by Our Lord Himself and was the one who had the privilege of preaching the first sermon. In terms of Church order, the Apostles are the foundation of the Church Revelation 21 v 14.
@Paul020253 Primacy from Peter is refuted on the sites below. Don't waste anymore of my time. If you refuse to believe the truth from those sources and your Bible, you won't believe it from me (Matthew 7:6).
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@kenrich777 "Don't waste anymore of my time." Who is wasting your time? You make postings and then throw your dummy out of the pram when anyone has the effrontery to dare to challenge you. Clearly you believe in the Primacy of kenrich777, and can't handle it when others dont bow down and worship you. The fact is Rev 21 v 14 makes it clear that the Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles. You cant seem to accept this.
@Paul020253 The rock the (true) Church is built on is Christ, the sure foundation, (not Peter). The foundation laid by the apostles and prophets is CHRIST, not themselves. Notice too it's apostles (plural) not apostle (Peter). They were equals, Peter was not Pope over them, authority was shared.
STOP WASTING MY TIME. This is all covered here - facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926.
@kenrich777 Actually the title "Pope" is given to three clergymen: the RCC Bishop of Rome and the Orthodox & Coptic Bishops of Alexandria-it just means "Father" in the sense of 1 Cor 14 v 15 and refers to their pastoral role. It is clear from the the Book of Acts that Peter had the role of leader of the 12. The rock Our Lord refers to in Mt 16 is of course the Revelation that Peter had, but it is significant that it came to Peter of all the Apostles. Of course the fact that the
Western Church fell into heresey and away from the True Church in 1054 causes people like yrself issues you cannot resolve. The implosion of the heretical Western Church in 1512 (The Reformation) has thrown up more issues that you need to resolve if you can. Your facebook link just attempts to reinforce your point of view, but given that its basis is theologically and historically dodgy, to put it mildly, you skill at coming to the wrong conclusions is understandable.
@Paul020253@Paul020253 That you come to the wrong conclusion is understandable since you are listening to deceivers, you twist scripture, and misrepresent ECF's, and when all else fails use base forgeries.
"The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18"
christiantruth(dot)com/articles/mt16(dot)html
Now please stop bothering me... I have work to do... My duty to you is discharged... I have provided links... Love and respect...
@kenrich777 If you dont want people to repond then dont post-it is simple. It is also clear that you havent botherd to read my postings-which says a lot for you. If you want others to respect you then it is simple-learn to respect them first. I have followed the link you posted, it is not "The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18" . It is a Fundamentalist critique of the RCC through the ECF. The fact is that the Church in the West fell in heresey in 1054 is not
addressed-I am pretty sure you have no idea of what I am talking about-and everything since then that has NOT come from the Orthodox Church is suspect. In your profile you describe yrself as an "Indie". There are no Independent Christians-the NT is clear on that. Therefore what ever else you may be, you cannot be a Christian at all
@Paul020253 Indie is a music industry term for independent - nothing to do with this. The orthodox split has nothing to do with the topic I was discussing. I'm also tired of Ad Hominen attacks. Why are you falsely accusing me and misrepresenting me - is that Christian?
@kenrich777 Who is falsely accusing you? and of what? We challenge your views because this is a DISCUSSION board (the clue is in the word "discussion") and you take umbridge when yr views are challenged. If you cant handle that dont post on a DISCUSSION board-simple really.
@Paul020253 You falsely accused me of being a anti-Catholic bigot and falsely accused me of holding views I don't hold about the Orthodox. Some of my best friends and family are Catholics.
@kenrich777 I am telling u how yr posts come across, I suggest u review them & u will see what I mean. I am Orthodox & have no axe to grind, but I dislike people who purport to be Christian but dont act like it. As for "falsely" accusing you "of holding views" you " dont hold about the Orthodox" I havent, all I pointed out that you quoted from an Orthodox website which would be as negative about u as it is about the RCC. For the record Orthodox dont differentiate between RCC & Prots
@Paul020253 Do you dislike yourself? Is it acting like a Christian to call me a anti-Catholic bigot? Is it acting like a Christian to tell me I am ignorant of Orthodox thought when I am not? Check your own statements.
I am well aware that the Orthodox see themselves as the one true Church. I strongly disagree, but I can still quote from an Orthodox source on the historical record. Orthodox and Protestants both agree that the ECF's didn't teach papal primacy.
@kenrich777 I tell you that you are ignorant of the Orthodox position because you are-& what is even more incredible is that you assume I am too!! To reduce the role of different Patrirchates & their development down to Papal Primacy is to either ignore the facts or be ignorant of them. What comes over is that you are obsessed with RCC & cannot see any other issue. Take a step back. You are part of the Western Church as is RCC. As far as we Orthodox are concerned you are all the same
@Paul020253 I do not care what the Orthodox thinks of me - I only care what God thinks of me. I do not recognize the claimed authority of the Orthodox Church, just as don't recognize the claimed authority of Rome, I only recognize the authority of God.
To be unimpressed by pretensions, is not the same as being ignorant of them.
@kenrich777 The Church is the Body of Christ on Earth-1 Cor 14 is very clear on this. You cannot separate God from His Church, if you do you only have, at the best, an imcomplete understanding of what the Christian faith is
PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME. If you refuse to believe the truth from the sources I point you to and your Bible, you won't believe it from me (Matthew 7:6).
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
@Paul020253 So let me get this straight. A site has to agree with you or it can't be referenced? I guess you don't reference OC or RCC sites because they have an axe to grind with each other, and with Protestants - grow up.
PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME. DON'T POST TO ME ANYMORE No one is forcing you to go to those sites. Remain in ignorance if you wish. My duty to you is discharged. Go in peace - love in respect...
@kenrich777 I refer to OC sites because within the OC there is not the variety of beliefs you find within the Protestant Church & altho' I'm still learning (as well as teaching)my faith. I know that whereever I go in the world. Orthodox belive the same thing-unlike the Protestant world. I am also sorry you believe it to be your duty to attack Christians. The BIble tells us tho' that we should expect to be attacked by the Enemies of the Cross, so thank you for fulfilling Scripture
@Paul020253 I have been attacked here by a OC and several RC's. I have repeatedly asked for you and them to stop posting to me - but you keep attacking. Don't try to turn it around and claim to be the one under assault.
I simply defend the Gospel of Christ by scripture and reason, which is what I am called to do as a Christian.
Jude 1:3 "...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints."
@kenrich777 I have gone through all yr postings and their replies, I have also checked on some of yr links. Not once have I found anyone attacking you, making insinuations against yr character. All I find is responses to your postings, and since this is a DISCUSSION board, that is only natural. You are entitled to give us yr opinion about the meaning of Scripture and we ours. If you imply that your view is identical to God's then I am afraid you will be challenged. The Christian
@Paul020253 Church has been around for 2000 years. I, for one, find it hard to believe that Our Lord would allow His People to be as wrong as you imply they are, especially in the light of Jn16 v 13, until you have come along. I ahve no doubt you are a good man, you love yr wife and you don't kick the cat, but you are not God and it is that view that we challenge.
@Paul020253 The Spirit of truth teaches, and tells what is to come. It was prophesied that a great falling away would occur - which did happen. Grievous wolves did not spare the flock, just as Paul said would happen at his departing.
I know of only one who claims to be God and that is the Roman Pontiff. Pope Leo XIII - We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty...
Pope Pius V - The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth...
@kenrich777 I would suggest you look at Church HIstory and study the events around 1054 when the West fell away from the The True Church over two matters-the unscriptual filioque clause of The Creed and the position of the Bishop of Rome. I would also suggest that you look carefully at The Reformation which turned everyone into what Protestants attack the Bishop of Rome for doing-being the arbiter of Truth
@Paul020253 The Church of even the 4th century had little semblance to Biblical Christianity, so when schism took place, neither side was the true Church.
Just like a Jew was not one by succession from Abraham, but by faith (Romans 9 1-8), a Christian (or a Church) is not one by apostolic succession, but by faith. (Continued...)
@kenrich777 Tertullian fell away from the True Faith and joined the Montanists. If you insist on quoting heretics, I will be unable to take you at all seriously. Please I beg of you, read up on Church History before making such statements
@Paul020253 Tertuian is one of the most quoted of ECF's mostly by Catholics because taken out of context some of his statements can be construed to support their position.
As I already said, there is broad consensus, if you don't like him, pick another, the ECF's were pretty consistent in this area.
@kenrich777 Tertullian is also quoted and beloved by modern day Pentecostals because he joined the Montanists whom they percieve to be an early form of Pentecostalism. The fact that Montanus named one of his lady friends as the Holy Spirit is something they ignore. Because Tertullian left the true faith, quoting him out of context is next to useless because if it was after he joined the Montanists it would be irrelevant because the Montanists were not Christian
@Paul020253 As I said, if you don't like him, pick another, there was broad consensus on the role of scripture among the apostolic Fathers.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III.
"... the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith." WHY ARE YOU STILL POSTING TO ME?
@kenrich777 Again you either miss the point or twist it ( I am not sure which is worse). In an Orthodox service 75% comes straight out of the BIble, our Church Year mirrors the events in the BIble, so clearly the Scriptures are central to the Orthodox Faith. The problem is how Protestants interpret Scripture-thye use their rational minds, the OC leaves it up to the Holy Spirit inspired Tradition (2Thess2v 15, 3v6)
@Paul020253 The OC and RCC have a different Gospel. Salvation is by relationship with Christ Jesus, not relationship to a Church, or it's sacraments.
Rituals have replaced relationship, just as with the Pharisees. It is dead religion that replaces Christ and the salvation that comes ONLY by direct personal relationship with HIM,
There is no power or virtue in icons, or relics, or rituals, the power is in Christ alone and we receive salvation ONLY by faith in HIM.
@kenrich777 Cant speak for the RCC-ask brant or jhb-but u are so wrong about OC-u clearly know nothing despite what u say about us. The Church is the Body of Christ (1Cor 14) so to have a relationship with Christ is to have a relationship with the Church-u can't have 1 without the other. There is nothing "dead" about my relationship with Christ. In fact 1 reason for leaving Protestantism for Orthodoxy was because I found an experience of God there which was missing from Protestantism
@Paul020253 Where in 1 Cor. 14 do you see OC, it's not there. When a RC reads it he sees RCC but it's not there. The Church is not an institution in that sense, it is the people who truly believe and are sealed with the Spirit. We are the Church and the temple of God, not a building or institution. Gifts of administration and teaching are distributed by the Spirit allowing for local structure, not elaborate hierarchies not found in scripture. (continued...)
Continuation... Sacerdotalism or sacramentalism negates the principle that grace is understood in Biblical terms: relationally to Christ through faith, and through faith alone.
The sacraments should celebrate and point to the person and work of Christ, they do not function as the vehicle through which the quasi–personal energies of God are extended to us for the sake of metaphysical and abstract union with them.
@kenrich777 There are problems with the OC's apophaticism that are quite distressing,
Primarily that it leads to a view of God that diminishes his personal nature. Seeing God as overly transcendent and unknowable, rather than personal and interactive.
If you have seen me, you have seen the Father John 14:9 Immanual God with us.
@kenrich777 Primarily you are wrong, apophaticism leads to a revelation of Who God really is. God is transcendant and unknowable-until the Second Person was incarnated, then things changed. That is why we can use icons as part of our worship. These issues are discussed in the book "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter Gilquist-published by Conciliar Press. It is a book all Evangelicals should read
God gave us reasoning..okay, humor me for a moment and follow this. Reasoning is a unique gift that ONLY human beings have. God created us with a rational nature.
Okay, now, having said that. I can't speak for Paul below, but I think he and I are trying to explain to you nicely that: Protestanism, or Scripture..."alone" is NEITHER Rational or Reasonable.
God is a God of order, Ken, (Wisdom 11:21), I'd think you'd agree to that, huh? Your faith is DISORDER. I've provided..
enough examples below that would cause anybody of reason to question the validilty of why Scripture alone does not, can not, will not, never was supposed to, work.
Please, for the love of God, put the pride to the side and take a look at the whole picture.
Ken, you're not American right? Well, in America we have a saying: Liberalism is a mental disorder. (unless of course you're an Obama lover) As paul below pointed out..liberalism is a form of rationalism which is..
Okay, now, my turn to humor you! Let's say it's not the RCC, then what is the Church? Each individual with their own logic of what Scripture says to them?
Ken, you may get to the top of the mountain when all is said and done , but your missing the whole fun adventure of getting there in favor of what the Bible says to you.
@kenrich777 Aside from the books of the NT, the earliest Christian writings that has survived is a liturgical manual, or what we can call a Missal, contained within the Didache. The early Church were united in their concern to preserve the Eucharistic doctrines, hence the witness to the Church's Eucharistic doctrines is unbroken from the time of the Gospels till today for both RC's and Orthodox.
I'm surprised that your one sided Protestant "history" doesn't mention this.
@09Brant That the breaking of bread was taught and should continue to be practiced is not the issue. The issue is, the manner and meaning is corrupted, as with transubstantiation.
@kenrich777 says you and your Protestant forefathers, certainly not Christian or Church history, Ken. The Real Presence was taught and preserved until Martin Luther was having a bad day.
I don't know if it is wilfull ignorance on your part, denial, or Satan blinding you...(Or God for that matter) with pride. I don't know? Like Paul, I can't figure out why you can't grasp these topics. A simple research in history would have explained this to you.
maybe you can explain to me why the Real Presence was never disputed until the Reformers.
Once again, you say without saying, that the Apostles, early Christians, ECF's, and early Church were ALL wrong until you Prots became "enlightened" by this..."holy 'spirit'".
@09Brant The RCC reads it's definition of "real presence" into the ECF's statements. The reformers simply returned to the original meaning, apparent from the context as spiritually present.
@kenrich777 If that is true then what we say is irrelevant. If the only thing that is important is a nebulous, subjective faith, then it doesnt matter if one worships in RCC, Orthodox Church or that the Holy kenrich777. The fact that you continually rant on about how we worship shows you dont really believe what you say.
@Paul020253 What I maintain is that the ground and pillar of our faith is scripture, the Gospel once and for all delivered to the saints. Salvation is in Christ alone - twist that anyway you wish, it is still the truth.
@kenrich777 That isnt what the discussion is about, it is about how the Scriptures are interpreted-RCC use the magisterum, Protestants their own reasoning, Orthodox the Holy Spirit inspired Holy Tradition. I dont know why you are unable to grasp this.
@Paul020253 Jesus and the apostles challenge us to understand scripture "...The Sacred Writings, which are able to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus." (2 Tim. 3:15) "...With meekness receive the ingrafted word which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) "These things I am writing to you that you may know that you have eternal life..." (1 John 5:13). "search the Scriptures" (John 5:39), "have you not read?" (Matt. 12:3; 12:5; 19:4; 21:16,42; 22:31)
I care not what councils and popes say - this is what God says:
grow in knowledge (2 Pet. 3:18), study (2 Tim. 2:15), exercise senses (Heb. 5:14), search (Acts 17:11), receive (James 1:21), read (Eph. 3:3-4), desire it (2 Pet. 2:2), let it unfold (Psalm 119:130), meditate on it day and night (Psalm 1:2) hear it read (Rev. 1:3), have it preached (2 Tim. 4:2-4; 1 Pet. 4:11), test what is said (1 John 4:1; Matt. 7:15-16), prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21).
No where is a infallible interpreter required, other than the indwelling Holy Spirit guiding into all truth. In fact the believer is told to study scripture and apply it to their life.
But, you must address Ken either to me or yourself personally, if the Holy Spirit guides "into truth" why are so many of you Bible "alone" believers at odds with one another?
That would lead to questioning this Holy Spirit, if that is what the Spirit does. I've provided examples below a few pages how this cannot be possible or what Jesus meant for His people.
@kenrich777 And your point is? I regularly study the Bible, I encourage my Catechesis group to read the Bible, everything I believe in and practice is in the BIble. Just throwing out a lot BIble verses is meaningless, even the Devil does that (Mt 4v6), all it tells me is that you know how to use a concordance
@kenrich777 The ecclesiology of the Eastern Church is different from the West-it was one of the reasons for the Great Schism of 1054. The West made the Bp of Rome responsible for interpretong Scripture & head of the Church. When the West imploded in 1054 at the Reformation, every Protestant became The Interpreter of Scripture & head of his own church-witness yr commitment to yr own opinions as to what Scripture means & the excessive number of denominations that the West has generated
@Paul020253 The differences are moot points since both were spawned by the same institutional corruption, and neither are the true Church. Already covered.
I don't have time for this, please stop posting to me. If you reject the links I gave, you will also reject what I say, there is no point to continue...
@kenrich777 Hardly moot-Orthodox see all Western Christians as the same-the Pope is the First Protestant. Our differences with the RCC are the same as all Protestant groups
@Paul020253 It is moot. If two people walk through a mud puddle and then go their separate ways, both can point to the other and say you are dirty, but neither can claim to be clean.
@kenrich777 The Orthodox Church has changed very little since the Day of Pentecost. The West departed when they added the filioque to the Creed. The West further imploded in 1512 at the Reformation. In the light of 2 Tim 4 v3&4 who is the one not walking thru the puddle? The one who has been around since the Day of Pentecost? Or the relative new comer? (my guess is that whatever group you belong to has been around for less than 100 years)
@kenrich777 I am not sure why you chose the 4th cent, which produced the Nicene Creed, the greatest Trinitarian document ever produced (I wonder, are you Trinitarian?) Neither am I sure what you mean by "Biblical Christianity". Christianity of all hues is based on the historical record of the New Testament-that Christ lived and died in Palestine and his fo
The notion of Sola Scriptura CAN be maintained, PROVIDED we recall the PRICELESS testimony of St Irenaeus,whose words can be anachronistically TWISTED to serve a doctrine that was NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED by the E.C.F's. Any notion of an interpretation of Scripture that varied from the "Rule of Faith" delivered to the churches of Apostolic foundation was anathematized FOR THAT REASON! AFTER ALL,Tradition is the word "written on the heart" by God and preserved by the Holy Spirit for ALL TIME! GOT MILK?
MrJhb211 2 hours ago
If the manner and meaning of the "breaking of the bread" is corrupted,then Divine revelation, ITSELF, has failed its singular purpose and God has failed His covenant pledge to His Church. If there is no historic Eucharist,THEN, according to the Scriptures,THERE IS NO HISTORIC GOSPEL! (and the Milky Way galaxy turns into jello pudding!)
MrJhb211 2 hours ago
"That you may know how to behave yourselves in the house of God,the CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND MAINSTAY OF THE TRUTH" (1Tim 3:15)
"Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church,AND THE GATES OF HELL WILL NEVER PREVAIL AGAINST IT" (Matt 16:18) (oooh! the inconvenience of Scripture!!)
MrJhb211 2 hours ago
@MrJhb211
I don't understand this cat?
We've tried to explain and walk him through how and why Scripture alone does not work, was never supposed to work, and either he
1) refuses to ackowledge it for prideful reasons.
2) Is willfuly ignorant.
3) or he just cannot grasp it at this time, mentally or spiritually?
Time to let it go.
09Brant 2 hours ago
@09Brant Hey Buddy! Ya know..what can i say? Poor Kenny has a very myopic view of Divine revelation. First of all,he talks about a Bible,in its complete form,THAT DIDNT EVEN EXIST in the 1st century...the recognized "canon" came later. the REAL problem,which I see with the most ardent detractors of "Popery",is a very private SELFISH VIEW of Christianity bent on a very narcissistic and CULTIC view of those who dont agree with their "vision". Trying to reason with them is a WASTE OF TIME! GBU!
MrJhb211 2 hours ago
If God chose to preserve the redeeming truth of the Gospel in a purely or exclusively written form, what provision for repentance and faith did He leave behind for the multitudes of blind and illiterate people before the invention of the printing press?I dont think the God "who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim 2:4) would have failed to provide an obviously needed alternative to an exclusively written form of saving truth. HE DIDN'T!! ASK ST IRENAEUS!!
MrJhb211 8 hours ago
If we agree that the sacraments are not just "signs" of faith but "living signs" of God's covenant presence with His people, then it's necessary to RE-EVALUATE the evangelical understanding of works.Human works nullify the basis for God's merciful intervention on behalf of helpless sinners BUT can the same thing be said about Divine works? Can God's "works" nullify God's grace? The sacraments DO have power in themselves because of the priesthood of Christ at work BUT they STILL require faith!
MrJhb211 8 hours ago
The romans, both pagan and papal attacked Gods' temple. Pagan rome destroyed the jerusalem temple, Papal rome removed Christ from his seat as mediator, " CASTING THE TRUTH TO THE GROUND" (daniel 8:12)...to which a priesthood of man, mary and the roman catholic church stands between GOD and people ..as the way to heaven..instead of the TRUTH..in which salvation is found..JESUS: "I am the way, the truth and the life..no one comes unto the FATHER but by ME".
07braves 18 hours ago
In context, the tradition Irenaeus refers to is identical to that taught in Scripture, not something different. Catholic apologists try to take him out of context, to refer to some separate body of oral tradition - not so.
Cyprian, Origen, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Firmilian, and Augustine, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Cyril and Gregory of Nyssa all held to the principle of Sola Scriptura, Reformers simply restored the patristic view.
christiananswers(dot)net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch(dot)html
kenrich777 20 hours ago
@kenrich777 None of the Church Fathers held to Sola Scriptura. This old chestnut crops up time and time again. Since the NT as we know it didnt come together until the second half of the fourth century, any reference they made to Scripture would be the Septuagint. Both Origen and Tertullian left the True Faith, Augustine could never make his mind up, so at least 3 of those you refer to are generally treated with caution, to put it mildly.
Paul020253 2 hours ago
It suffices for any HONEST SOUL,having read the 2nd 3rd and 4th chapters of Book III of St Irenaus' great work, "Against Heresies" to clearly perceive the marriage BY GOD of the pre-eminent authority of the Gospels handed down to us WITH the succession of bishops in those churches founded by the Apostles LIKEWISE PERSERVED.The truth is not to be found outside the Catholic Church, being the "field" in which God has placed the treasure of the faith. Heresies CAN NOT BE TRACED BACK TO THE APOSTLES!
MrJhb211 22 hours ago
@MrJhb211 St Irenaeus ALSO refers to those who disregard the "Rule of Faith" handed down by the Apostles to the various churches which they built up and organized AND where the succession of bishops is to be found as "THIEVES AND ROBBERS" St Irenaeus CLEARLY sees a bond between Scripture AND Tradition. He witnesses to the fact that the heretics of his day rejected BOTH ! Like everything else pertaining to the Divine purpose THAT VERY OFFICE of bishop has a CONSTANT PRESENCE UNTIL THIS DAY!
MrJhb211 22 hours ago
Thank you so much. I have long been a 'truth' seeking christian and believe that all you have said is accurate and correct. After years of my own study, there is no doubt.
SuperJane99 2 days ago
What is the link that connects the Apostolic Church with the Church of today? THE LITURGY! What did Jesus command? "Do this in commemoration of me" (Luke 22:19) What does the Scripture say about Divine commands? The word that goes forth from the mouth of God "will not return to Him void without FIRST accomplishing that for which it was sent AND IT SHALL PROSPER in its doing" (Isa 55:11) the conclusion? the Liturgy will be celebrated continuously until the end of time! (1Cor 11:26) SIMPLE, RIGHT?
MrJhb211 2 days ago
@MrJhb211 As a postscript to my previous submission, has there EVER been a time in the history of the Church in which the Eucharist was NOT celebrated?...in which the real PHYSICAL presence of Christ in the Eucharist was NOT acknowledged or the sacrificial nature of the act itself was NOT UPHELD? WOW! Looks like God,once again, knows how to keep His word!! WHY NOT? He's the Rock of our salvation!
MrJhb211 2 days ago 5
I just responded to the latest round of posts directed at me - PLEASE STOP POSTING TO ME - I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS.
I do not agree with the RCC's or OC's unBiblical doctrines, their disregard for the word of God, their hatred of Bible believers, and the elevation of themselves and their traditions above God's word.
If you don't like my nonconformity to your views, I'm sorry, but I will follow Christ and the Bible, not popes and councils. PLEASE STOP POSTING TO ME
kenrich777 3 days ago
@kenrich777 Hi, let me just correct your earlier post after Paul gave you yet another history lesson that you simply have to need to be in denial about; you have to.
"..but I will follow Christ and the Bible...."
No, you will follow "your views of what", Christ "is to you" and "your interpretation of what the" Bible, "says to me".
Have a nice night.
09Brant 3 days ago
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@09Brant You follow the views of what the Pope is to you and what the catechism is to you.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 2 days ago
Some people at this video site need to GET A LIFE! (or better yet..A DICTIONARY!!) Y is asking our "RESIDENT SCHOLARS" for verbatim citations from source documents like asking satan to drink HOLY WATER?? Asking T-Rex to go VEGETARIAN? I could teach a CIRCUS CHIMP to use a dictionary. A SLOW CHIMP! How slow u ask? The little fella is taking a remedial class in BANANA PEELING over at BONZO STATE COLLEGE! GOOD NIGHT AND GOD BLESS!
MrJhb211 6 days ago
@MrJhb211 Why don't you provide what you demand from everyone else. I can't recall you ever providing anything but slurs, insults, and your own opinions.
I have at least provided links to discourses and references too big to fit in these small comment boxes. Even making multiple comments to include references to original sources like on the assumption fiasco. EXAMPLE (See Henry Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma (London: Herder,1954), pp. 66-69; ...
kenrich777 6 days ago
Without the Eucharist,YOU DON'T HAVE ETERNAL LIFE! Without the Divine Liturgy, you DON'T HAVE CHRIST AS YOUR MEDIATOR,ADVOCATE AND HIGH PRIEST! Without the Magisterium, YOU DONT HAVE THE NEW TESTAMENT! Without the Papacy,you have license,disorder, and confusion.. NOT the obedience of faith! Claim anything you want to! Quote ALL the Scripture verses you have memorized! Drink from the keg of anti-Popish source materials UNTIL YOU'RE BLUE IN THE FACE! TRUTH IS TRUTH! ( with much love and respect!)
MrJhb211 1 week ago
@MrJhb211 lol....
09Brant 1 week ago
@MrJhb211 .....eucharist saves you ?..BLASPHEMOUS....So you are saying that this blasphemous act of a priest changing a cracker into CHRIST is what saves a man?..again your ."casting the truth to the ground i see". If a priest stands in mediation of sin BETWEEN GOD AND MAN..has that not taken the place of CHRIST..as high priest..in which HE is the mediator..the BOOK says JESUS SAT DOWN..never to be OFFERED AGAIN..he is the ONLY MEDIATOR. Accept Christ anywhere, anytime for salvation.
07braves 1 week ago
@MrJhb211 Where are your "verbatim citations from source documents" for these ridiculous and blasphemous claims. You demand them from everyone else - where are yours???
Here's a verbatim quote from your illustrious leader doing away with faith in Christ for salvation: "...will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith ("Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope," Zenit, Nov. 30).
Salvation is not in Christ alone? See John 14:6 No one comes to the Father except through me...
kenrich777 6 days ago
@kenrich777 hello i think we're all here missing the most important point! remember the theif on the cross? he didn't have time to do research and post comments like those here at youtube.There was no catechism or rituals either. God,nevertheless, gave him the grace to acknowledge his sin and need for salvation and recognize Christ as his Savior There's too many judgments being passed here. that's God's job! ithink we need to recognize and respect each others space and faith commitment.! thx
hoipolloi54 6 days ago
@hoipolloi54 Hey Jim! Welcome back.we miss ya! ! We're dealing here with a challenged gentleman who complains about people posting him BUT he wont shut up. He claims NOW that he's NOT the "arbiter"of truth BUT he can't seem to stop making arbitrary judgments about things he has no real understanding of. I tried with this guy BUT to no avail! I would CERTAINLY respect "his space and faith commitment" IF he wasn't obsessed with violating the space and faith of others! God bless you,friend!
MrJhb211 6 days ago
@MrJhb211 You have insulted me, called me a liar, misrepresented my positions, told me I wasn't a Christian. I asked you to stop posting to me about a dozen times but you wouldn't stop with the ad hominen attacks and now you are say I am violating the space and faith of others?
Excuse me, but you have been the one issuing challenges and goading me into responding to your allegations and insults. When I do you cry foul? I ask you again, please stop posting to me and about me.
kenrich777 5 days ago
@MrJhb211 hello. i really dont see the point in beating a dead horse which is what I see taking place here. i can only speak for myself here in terms of my own experience i strayed from the true path for a long time but God brought me back. this is why I can easily relate to the thief on the cross..no excuses,no drama. i recognized my guilt and need for Christ and he restored me whole. i cannot and will not judge another man's walk with the Lord Thank you and God bless you too!
hoipolloi54 5 days ago
@hoipolloi54 "Beating a dead horse "INDEED! If someone here is incorrigible, I leave him to God Ur ABSOLUTELY RIGHT also about this being an anger issue with Kenny. The most scurrilous attacks against the Church here have come from angry "ex-Catholics" The SINCERE evangelicals I've encountered have ALWAYS shown a willingness to ponder the issues I have made and accept Scriptural challenges when offered, (NOT act like spoiled brats!) IN SPITE OF STRONG DISAGREEMENT! GBU!
MrJhb211 5 days ago
@MrJhb211 First off I'm not an ex-Catholic. Secondly, you are the one stirring up anger with your ad hominen attacks like - liar, reprobate, non Christian, and now incorrigible spoiled brat.
I asked you nicely to stop posting about me and here you are calling me a spoiled brat. Is this your idea of a mature discussion, or debate? I have told you at least a dozen times - I don't have time for this, and I lost interest in talking to you long ago. PLEASE STOP POSTING TO ME OR ABOUT ME...
kenrich777 5 days ago
@kenrich777 LOOK PAL! I'll make a 1 exception to my rule about not posting U anymore! Ur the one who keeps posting me NOT vice versa! As far as ur demand to not post about you and ur info, U don't know me very well.right? ILL POST ANYTHING I WANT WHENEVER I WANT! I dont require ur pontifical revue.YOUR HOLINESS! As long as u or others post insults and trash about my faith,IM GOING TO RESPOND,GOT IT? I thought U were TOO BUSY and didn't have time 4 this ANYWAY! U tell a lie AND I'LL REPLY.OK?
MrJhb211 4 days ago 6
@MrJhb211 And here you go again with more insults and unChristian behavior. I ask you again, PLEASE STOP POSTING TO ME. I really, sincerely, don't have time for this. Every minute I spend here drags me away from more important things. I have borne long and patiently with you - ENOUGH.
kenrich777 3 days ago
@hoipolloi54 The thief on the cross simply makes my point above. Faith in Christ was all he had, but he was saved. He didn't need the the eucharist, divine liturgy, the magisterium, the papacy, or any of the things @MrJhb211 adds to faith in Christ for salvation...
The whole point of scripture and of Christianity is to lead a person to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Should I be judged for expressing Biblical faith? What about respecting my space and faith commitment?
kenrich777 6 days ago
@kenrich777 ...forgive my typos and mispelling. I'm trying to eat a sandwhich whiledi tyoing with my left hand. (Not a lefty).
09Brant 6 days ago
@kenrich777 what can I say with diplomacy? You and i have to listen to our conscience and the voice of others as well. I detect the real issue with you is anger and disillusioment with the church. I understand! i had the same anger but realized that it distracted me from what was important the result was i made a lot of mistakes and lost a lot of time. it could have been worse. thank God it wasn't! i really hope you give this matter the prayer and reflection that it deserves. God bless you
hoipolloi54 5 days ago
@hoipolloi54 I have no issue with the true Church as defined by the Bible. The people who truly believe and are sealed with the Spirit of God.
However, I do have a problem with the false Church, so does God, and he says he will destroy it. In love he gives a warning to come out... (Rev. 17-18).
If that's a problem for you, please take it up with God. I don't have time to waste on more discussions here, my duty is discharged - please stop posting to me...love and respect...
kenrich777 5 days ago
part 2 ..the 1st church that was established then was and is the BORN AGAIN JEWISH CHURCH. Why do you think that the apostle Paul stated..BUT he is a JEW ,which is one INWARDLY, ...now saying that, of course he was speaking of the jewish nation proclaiming their right to salvation, and of course Paul corrected them..BUT he still used the true BASE of GODS' church ...JEWISH !!...he didnt say you have to be ROMAN CATHOLIC, or ORTHODOX or BAPTIST, or any others...JEWISH of heart..BORN AGAIN .
07braves 1 week ago
the true church is the 1st church established by Christ and his 12 disciples..in which is the BORN AGAIN church in which is 1st established unto what people?...THE JEWISH CHURCH!...period..no other answer for this at all. To go against it is to go directly against GODS' word itself. the gospel was 1st preached to the JEWISH peoples...then the gentiles...so this completely eliminates the roman catholic church as the church Christ founded or any other church by name or denomination.
07braves 1 week ago
Dozens of clear and plain verses stating unequivocally Jesus is a man, the son of the living God;himself having many opportunities to explain this "mystery" and yet stated emphatically that he was a man and that there is only one good - God. Calling us brothers and him servant to man - and only a few verses that have to be stretched and twisted requiring a scholar or priest to explain (the unexplainable) to pull the rabbit out of the mystery hat (1+1+1= 1)
t1l1m 1 week ago
The RCC required confession that Jesus is God at the point of a sword. Why, Dave Hunt, knowing all this about the RCC, do you not see the Mystery of the Tri-une God? I humbly submit that Jesus Christ had to be a man, tempted of all things yet he resisted the Adversary and remained sinless. By definition a God cannot die and cannot be tempted. Why would he try to confuse by turning himself into a baby and pulling such a charade that the RCC declares that he did?
t1l1m 1 week ago
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kenrich777 1 week ago
@09Brant One brief note on the doctrine of "justification by faith alone" It is NOT a question of whether or not the words "faith alone" can't be used CORRECTLY. THEY CAN. The problem arose from Luthers understanding of the nature of justification and the resulting alteration in the proper understanding of "justifying faith" that was required THAT WAS THE ISSUE! (not the mere words used themselves that explained the Church's spirited and essential response!)
MrJhb211 1 week ago
@09Brant No I was talking about hoipolloi. i think he wisely ignores the trivial pursuits. After all, like a cancer survivor, U no longer find the patience or will to allow distractions in ur life. My preoccupation is with a never exhausted number of Catholics who R easily misled by false history and theology and scandalized by current events where there is no alternate sources of info. The cults can claim numerous "former Catholics" among their adherents because of a deficient catechism!
MrJhb211 1 week ago
@MrJhb211 that's a good point, and I'm glad you brought it up. Good that you stick around here to help steer the way a bit more. I've certainly learned from your posts as well.
09Brant 1 week ago
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09Brant 1 week ago
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@kenrich777 - Do you know how to use a bible search tool. Search for Peter and Cephas. Then search for all the other apostles names. It's pretty simple. Search for lists of the apostles. Find another cure before Peter's in Acts? Find another gentile converted before Acts 10? Show me a place where a question is asked of the group outside of Matt 16, John 6, Acts 2, Acts 4 where someone else answers? U can't find where Jesus pays Peters tax or prays for him singularly? U don't know ur bible.
imromancatholic 1 week ago
@imromancatholic Luke 22:24-26...arguing over who was the greatest and none considered Peter a pope or greater than the others.
Eph. 5:23-25 shows that Christ is the only head of the church, not Peter or a pope.
Peter wasn't infallible, or celibate, or a pope. He was an apostle to the Jews (Galatians 2.7-9), and a fallible married man. He denied Christ (Matthew 26.33-35, 69-75), was a busybody (John 21.15-22), and was rebuked by Paul over legalism (Galatians 2.11-14).
kenrich777 1 week ago
You are reading what you want into some verses and ignoring others to make Peter into something he wasn't. Yes, he was one of the big three apostles, a great man, prominent - but not a pope, and not infallible.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 - Again you throw around the term infallible like we think that everything the Pope says and does is right. You still have Peter 1&2 in your bible so you evidently think that when Peter wrote scripture he was infallible. I.e. you believe in a limited infallibility for him.
imromancatholic 1 week ago
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@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 -Further there were times when he spoke that you agree his words were infallible because they were recorded in scripture.
imromancatholic 1 week ago
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@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 I did read some of the links you sent me, but sorry, I don't feel the same way. I believe you to have selective one track thinking, prefer to continue to believe what you have all along.
I can give you links and sites too, for what? You're mind is made up and you feel the same about me.
-But tell me, as I still wait: How did God see fit to wait until the 1500's to enlighten us that all we Christians need is the Scriptures "alone"?
-And what does that say about the ECF's, were...
09Brant 1 week ago
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@09Brant I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@09Brant I took time to address those specific questions but you ignored my answers and clung to the fairy tale history Rome built on known forgeries like the Donation of Constantine (Google It). The ECF's were already addressed too - I can use them to prove Protestant doctrines but don't need to, since ours are in the Bible. I have already disproved Rome with them - Rome cherry picks the ECF's.
Can you read? Is their some part of "I don't have time for this" that you don't understand?
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 Ha, Ken but you seem to have enough time to drop your two cents with falsified historical details on here.
Ken, your religion of Bible.."alone" came 1500 years after Christ established a governing Church for His people! There are thousands of Bible ..."alone" sects among us, yet not two of you agree on all topics. This is fact #1.
Christianity was around for 350 years at least before the cannon of the NT was determined, Ken!
All ECF's were Catholic in their beliefs.
Good Night.
09Brant 1 week ago
@09Brant You are willfully ignorant and it does absolutely no good for me to waste time casting perils before swine. You will not let go of your false paradigm and brainwashing, no matter how many times you are refuted. STOP WASTING MY TIME
carm(dot)org/early-church-and-faith-alone
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 Yeah, I'm "wasting your time", but apparently I'm giving you something to second guess as you continue to post me, friend.
I can give you site after site too, will it really change your mind?
"Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still". I'm dealing with that method of logic with you, as -with all respect- all you Bible ..."alone" Evengelical's are of the same thinking and (il)logic. That's pretty frightening. When you're de-programmed, we'll talk. Thank u.
09Brant 1 week ago
@09Brant Hey Brant! I checked out his "carm.org" on "sola scriptura' and "sola fide",WHY I DONT KNOW! Once again, a fabric of statements made out of context and the standard evangelical diatribe on faith and works with predictable results. ONE surprising admission that the Scriptures belong to the Church (WOW! There's hope!) but, for the most part, the same laundry. how are things going at home? I've been slaving away at my job Have U heard from Jim? He hasn't posted for a while. Give me a ring!
MrJhb211 1 week ago
@MrJhb211 Only the deceived define Church as RCC, and reject the Bible definition. In the first centuries Catholic meant universal (not Roman), and all Bishops shared authority. There was no Bishop of Bishops over all Christendom, only Christ as head of the Church with Bishops having local authority and accountability to the local elders and flock. The Papacy was a late development, built on lies and forgeries, as every intellectually honest scholar acknowledges.
kenrich777 1 week ago
@09Brant I have wasted over a week refuting you, only to have you stay in denial. Forgeries were used to bring the Popes to power as admitted in the Catholic Encyclopedia, The ECF's used the Bible alone, and rejected Papal primacy - only by misrepresenting them by quoting out of context. do Catholic apologists deceive people. Apostolic succession is a joke, since besides having no scriptural support, history proves it false with Popes you contradict each other and commit atrocities.
kenrich777 1 week ago
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kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 Yeah, you have sooo "refuted" me, that you are going around in circles, tippy toe, saying the same things: Pointing me to one sided commentary, because it's too ridiculous for even you to believe to answer me outright.
But whatever helps you sleep at night.
As for the ECF's using the Bible alone? WHAT!? Ah, what exactly are you reading?
Protestanism is unhistorical and your Bible "alone" theory is completely unBiblical.
Now you're wasting both of our time.
09Brant 1 week ago
@09Brant Hey buddy! A grade school child could read the N.T. and see the position God gave St.Peter among the 12 AND WHY! We R NOT Roman Catholics! We R Catholics. The term "Roman Catholic" was the invention of Protestants. NOW, these unhappy gerbils are accusing US of having invented this false label WHAT'S FOR DESSERT? I mentioned the "MINIMAL" impact the false decretals had on the growth of Papal temporal power and the molehill becomes MT EVEREST! WHAT'S THE USE? What's new? GBU!
MrJhb211 1 week ago
@MrJhb211 LOL, "gerbils"...oh, man, you and Paul crack me up. Paul is so miles ahead of these "born-again's" that when he refutes them it's so over their heads they don't even see the sarcasm. Your one-liners are side spliting...yet, when they try and mix it up with you, you're right back toe-to-toe w/ them.
Look, I mean NO disrespect to my good Protestant friends, but honestly I think it's the frog in the boiling water syndrome, or like a gas leak...they've become exposed and don't know it.
09Brant 1 week ago
@09Brant You hit the nail on the head, Bro! I will NOT engage in an indictment of Evangelicals, just the errors and prejudices of the few. I could give u a list of names of Evangelicals who were and ARE loved because of their sincere commitment to Christ who never had the time or patience to engage in this type guttural attack against the Church. Outside of his personal dishonesty, if Dave Hunt could show me the same love 4 Jesus that Corrie ten Boom or Mother Teresa had, I MIGHT give him a nod!
MrJhb211 1 week ago
@09Brant The ANNOYING problem Ken has is clearly illustrated by his recourse to the E.C.F's on "the Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture" 1st of all, has he EVER read the writings of the E C.F.'s or is his "knowledge" obtained EXCLUSIVELY from websites? This is the SAME GUY who accuses me of being a heretic on the basis of a de fide statement he couldn't even be bothered to read CORRECTLY! I TRIED! The "egg" of Scripture must have it's nest in the Church or it get's SCRAMBLED! GBU!
MrJhb211 1 week ago 8
@MrJhb211 I go by scripture alone, since all the doctrines I believe in are all contained there. But since Catholics go by tradition, and quote the ECF's out of context and misrepresent them, I thought it would be good to point people to an article that shows what the ECF's really said. If you can't handle the truth, that's not my problem. Cling to fairy tales, forgeries, and lies - that's your choice.
kenrich777 1 week ago
MrJhb211 Was it not you who said that Sola Scriptura was invented by Protestants in the 15th century. I provided proof that the Reformers simply returned to a Patristic principle of the Apostolic fathers. I provided something that both you and Brant have been screaming doesn't exist. I do not need to recourse to ECF's to prove my beliefs, they are in the Bible. I reference them only to prove you misrepresent them and history. Yes - I bet that is annoying!
kenrich777 6 days ago
@09Brant It's in the links that you didn't bother to look through. For anyone reading that actual wants the truth here is an article on "The Church Fathers and the Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture" christiantruth(dot)com/scriptureandchurchfathers(dot)html
I spent a week answering you outright. Now I'm going to ask you politely one last time. Stop posting to me, stop wasting my time, I have no interest in any more fruitless discussions with you. Love and respect.
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777
And I believe that Paul basically said it the best and shut this down: "your facebook link just reinforces your point of view...".
No problem, peace and respect to you as well.
09Brant 1 week ago
@09Brant There's ANOTHER boondoggle 4 YA! The C.C. has NEVER officially stated that the "rock" referred to in Matt 16:18 is SOLELY a reference to Peter! The E.C.F's had a VARIETY of interpretations of Matt 16:18 in regard to the question of "who" or "what" the rock is that Christ said He would build His Church on AND CORRECTLY SO! ALL the Scriptural possibilities were meant to be comprehended TOGETHER as an alternative to an ERRONEOUS understanding that sees Peter here WITHOUT QUALIFICATION! GB!
MrJhb211 1 week ago
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@09Brant I keep posting because you can't take a hint or even a pointed and clear request. Stop posting to me, stop making false statements and false accusations, STOP WASTING MY TIME with UNBIBLICAL and HISTORICALLY INACCURATE propaganda and lies.
You are willfully ignorant and it does absolutely no good for me to waste time casting pearls before swine. You will not let go of your false paradigm and brainwashing, no matter how many times you are refuted. STOP WASTING MY TIME
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 ..how did early Christians worship before the NT came about? And even after the NT was in print, NOBODY challenged the authority of His Church until the earliest..1300's. So nobody knew what they were talking about, nope, not a clue. Then along comes a monk, Martin Luther who tells us we just need the Scriptures...Is this really what you want to follow? Do You even know why you follow it?
09Brant 1 week ago
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@09Brant They worshiped the same way they do now - in spirit and in truth. Not by rosaries and veneration of Mary.
STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 ...well at least you got that right..Thanks. We most absoluetly "venerate" and adore Mary, not "worship" as many "Indie Evengelical's" have to make themselves believe.
And by the way, Chester, this ..."truth" that you refer to all the time is subjective at best for the Bible.."alone" (unBiblical , unhistorical by the way) sect out there. gave you examples of how and why Scripture alone is the biggest Satanic blinder, but you just keep reinforcing Prot interpretation of Catholicism.
09Brant 1 week ago
@09Brant Hey Brant! How's ur Friday? I get a little annoyed with this recourse to "links""LINKS?" I had some with breakfast this morning (2 eggs sunnyside -up,hash browns and a slice of toast) If i need more "links" I could always post FARMER JOHN! Now, Capt. Happy Hour is going to Orthodox sources to support the idea that Papal Primacy is a myth. U see Y I keep asking these people to do their OWN READING of the Scriptures and the E.C.F.'s? AM I THE ONLY PROTESTANT AT THIS SITE? GBU!
MrJhb211 1 week ago
@09Brant You worship Mary but call it veneration - that's just semantics.
The pronouncements of Pope's are not only unauthoritative, but actually ridiculous. For instance two infallible Popes condemned the assumption of Mary as Gnostic heresy, and one supposedly infallible Pope made it official dogma. One Pope set the stinking corpse of his predecessor on a throne in Papal vestments and condemned him by trial. You accuse us of being unBiblicall and unhistorical?
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 Prove to me from a Prot stand point how I "worship" Mary. More, typical Protestant replies...how old are you?
The RCC are merely codifying a belief that has ALWAYS existed in the Church regarding the Assumption of Mary, friend.
The RCC did this in 325 when She defined the doctrine of the Trinity or in 382 when She determined the cannon of the Bible. But , nah, no "born-again" thinks the RCC "invented" the Trinity or the Bible, huh?
The Immaculate Conception and Assumption...
09Brant 1 week ago
@09Brant I already pointed out to you that even your own scholars have backpedaled on that date for the cannon because the source is a known forgery - why do you keep using it?
kenrich777 6 days ago
@kenrich777
I'm sorry Ken, you've offered no substancial proof or evidence regarding any "forgery" or "backpedaling" of any type.
I know of no Tradition that is in violation of Scripture, remembering that RC's believe Scripture AND Tradition, NOT Scripture "VS" Tradition. If Scripture doesn't mention something this is why we have the ECF's, the Didache, and Church Tradition/ history.
I've given you one example below regarding the "dogma" of Mary's Assumption, Immaculate Conception.
09Brant 6 days ago
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@09Brant Already dealt with you ignored the link. @09Brant PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME. If you refuse to believe the truth from the sources I point you to and your Bible, you won't believe it from me (Matthew 7:6).
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 5 days ago
@kenrich777 ..continued..
of Mary, likewise belong to the deposit of faith. They were held too by a few of your Protestant forefathers and many ECF's.
Hey, keep trying, dude..maybe you'll really find something to make yourself hate about the RCC that's actually true.
Have a great day!
09Brant 1 week ago
@kenrich777 - You only need to stop wasting your own time. Noone is forcing you to read his posts or continue to post your distortions on this site. Nor will we force you to take a deep and objective look at our arguements. You are afraid of them and so you never really consider them. You can't even go to scripture and examine for yourself whether Peter was truly the leader of the 12 based on the evidence provided. You are no Berean.
imromancatholic 1 week ago
@imromancatholic Hey, thank you for the PM. I appreciate the message. I'll definitely look into it. Thanks. Have a good night.
09Brant 1 week ago
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@imromancatholic STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@imromancatholic STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@09Brant STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 No, my good man, you need to GOOGLE the history of your religion, the history of Scripture alone, and Church History.
If you do this with an open mind and heart, Ken, I find it scary if you can continue to hold on to your current -rehearsed- memorized- beliefs.
I say this with the utmost respect, and mean no disrespect or sarcasm.
It was fun, but we're both very passionate about our respective sides or beliefs.
09Brant 1 week ago
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@09Brant STOP WASTING MY TIME If you want to remain wifully ignorant that's your choice. My duty to you is discharged go in peace.
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 ..continued..
they lying or mislead? What about the Apostles ..same thing?
-Then what about Luther -who acknowledged the authority of the Papcy in his 95 Theses, (a lot of Prot's don't discuss that). He was right, and they were all wrong.
I just want you to say it. And please don't answer my question with another question.
09Brant 1 week ago
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@09Brant Can you read? Is their some part of "I don't have time for this" that you don't understand?
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 - So I take it you don't have 1 & 2 Peter in your Bible. Again you throw up a straw man infallibility and then shoot it down. Bravo. You pass anti-catholicism and bigotry but fail at logic and proper debate. We don't say that peter was infallible in everything he did. Stop posting nonsense.
imromancatholic 1 week ago
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@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
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@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 - Being the leader is not about being the greatest. Again you ignore what the bible says and come up with your own red herring argument. Where does it say leaders should never be rebuked?
imromancatholic 1 week ago
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@imromancatholic I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 You clearly have a very low view of the Apostolic order. Whatever else he may have been he was chosen by Our Lord Himself and was the one who had the privilege of preaching the first sermon. In terms of Church order, the Apostles are the foundation of the Church Revelation 21 v 14.
Paul020253 1 week ago
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@Paul020253 Primacy from Peter is refuted on the sites below. Don't waste anymore of my time. If you refuse to believe the truth from those sources and your Bible, you won't believe it from me (Matthew 7:6).
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 "Don't waste anymore of my time." Who is wasting your time? You make postings and then throw your dummy out of the pram when anyone has the effrontery to dare to challenge you. Clearly you believe in the Primacy of kenrich777, and can't handle it when others dont bow down and worship you. The fact is Rev 21 v 14 makes it clear that the Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles. You cant seem to accept this.
Paul020253 1 week ago
@Paul020253 The rock the (true) Church is built on is Christ, the sure foundation, (not Peter). The foundation laid by the apostles and prophets is CHRIST, not themselves. Notice too it's apostles (plural) not apostle (Peter). They were equals, Peter was not Pope over them, authority was shared.
STOP WASTING MY TIME. This is all covered here - facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926.
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 Actually the title "Pope" is given to three clergymen: the RCC Bishop of Rome and the Orthodox & Coptic Bishops of Alexandria-it just means "Father" in the sense of 1 Cor 14 v 15 and refers to their pastoral role. It is clear from the the Book of Acts that Peter had the role of leader of the 12. The rock Our Lord refers to in Mt 16 is of course the Revelation that Peter had, but it is significant that it came to Peter of all the Apostles. Of course the fact that the
Paul020253 1 week ago
Western Church fell into heresey and away from the True Church in 1054 causes people like yrself issues you cannot resolve. The implosion of the heretical Western Church in 1512 (The Reformation) has thrown up more issues that you need to resolve if you can. Your facebook link just attempts to reinforce your point of view, but given that its basis is theologically and historically dodgy, to put it mildly, you skill at coming to the wrong conclusions is understandable.
Paul020253 1 week ago 5
@Paul020253 @Paul020253 That you come to the wrong conclusion is understandable since you are listening to deceivers, you twist scripture, and misrepresent ECF's, and when all else fails use base forgeries.
"The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18"
christiantruth(dot)com/articles/mt16(dot)html
Now please stop bothering me... I have work to do... My duty to you is discharged... I have provided links... Love and respect...
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 If you dont want people to repond then dont post-it is simple. It is also clear that you havent botherd to read my postings-which says a lot for you. If you want others to respect you then it is simple-learn to respect them first. I have followed the link you posted, it is not "The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18" . It is a Fundamentalist critique of the RCC through the ECF. The fact is that the Church in the West fell in heresey in 1054 is not
Paul020253 1 week ago
addressed-I am pretty sure you have no idea of what I am talking about-and everything since then that has NOT come from the Orthodox Church is suspect. In your profile you describe yrself as an "Indie". There are no Independent Christians-the NT is clear on that. Therefore what ever else you may be, you cannot be a Christian at all
Paul020253 1 week ago
@Paul020253 Indie is a music industry term for independent - nothing to do with this. The orthodox split has nothing to do with the topic I was discussing. I'm also tired of Ad Hominen attacks. Why are you falsely accusing me and misrepresenting me - is that Christian?
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 Who is falsely accusing you? and of what? We challenge your views because this is a DISCUSSION board (the clue is in the word "discussion") and you take umbridge when yr views are challenged. If you cant handle that dont post on a DISCUSSION board-simple really.
Paul020253 1 week ago
@Paul020253 You falsely accused me of being a anti-Catholic bigot and falsely accused me of holding views I don't hold about the Orthodox. Some of my best friends and family are Catholics.
kenrich777 1 week ago
@kenrich777 I am telling u how yr posts come across, I suggest u review them & u will see what I mean. I am Orthodox & have no axe to grind, but I dislike people who purport to be Christian but dont act like it. As for "falsely" accusing you "of holding views" you " dont hold about the Orthodox" I havent, all I pointed out that you quoted from an Orthodox website which would be as negative about u as it is about the RCC. For the record Orthodox dont differentiate between RCC & Prots
Paul020253 1 week ago
@Paul020253 Do you dislike yourself? Is it acting like a Christian to call me a anti-Catholic bigot? Is it acting like a Christian to tell me I am ignorant of Orthodox thought when I am not? Check your own statements.
I am well aware that the Orthodox see themselves as the one true Church. I strongly disagree, but I can still quote from an Orthodox source on the historical record. Orthodox and Protestants both agree that the ECF's didn't teach papal primacy.
kenrich777 6 days ago
@kenrich777 I tell you that you are ignorant of the Orthodox position because you are-& what is even more incredible is that you assume I am too!! To reduce the role of different Patrirchates & their development down to Papal Primacy is to either ignore the facts or be ignorant of them. What comes over is that you are obsessed with RCC & cannot see any other issue. Take a step back. You are part of the Western Church as is RCC. As far as we Orthodox are concerned you are all the same
Paul020253 6 days ago
@Paul020253 I do not care what the Orthodox thinks of me - I only care what God thinks of me. I do not recognize the claimed authority of the Orthodox Church, just as don't recognize the claimed authority of Rome, I only recognize the authority of God.
To be unimpressed by pretensions, is not the same as being ignorant of them.
kenrich777 6 days ago
@kenrich777 The Church is the Body of Christ on Earth-1 Cor 14 is very clear on this. You cannot separate God from His Church, if you do you only have, at the best, an imcomplete understanding of what the Christian faith is
Paul020253 6 days ago
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PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME. If you refuse to believe the truth from the sources I point you to and your Bible, you won't believe it from me (Matthew 7:6).
I don't have time to keep posting refutations that are available in dozens of Christian apologetic sites - here is a list. Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 5 days ago
@kenrich777 They are NOT "Christian apologetic sites " they are Protestant sites and have an axe to grind-get your facts right please
Paul020253 5 days ago 3
@Paul020253 So let me get this straight. A site has to agree with you or it can't be referenced? I guess you don't reference OC or RCC sites because they have an axe to grind with each other, and with Protestants - grow up.
PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME. DON'T POST TO ME ANYMORE No one is forcing you to go to those sites. Remain in ignorance if you wish. My duty to you is discharged. Go in peace - love in respect...
kenrich777 5 days ago
@kenrich777 I refer to OC sites because within the OC there is not the variety of beliefs you find within the Protestant Church & altho' I'm still learning (as well as teaching)my faith. I know that whereever I go in the world. Orthodox belive the same thing-unlike the Protestant world. I am also sorry you believe it to be your duty to attack Christians. The BIble tells us tho' that we should expect to be attacked by the Enemies of the Cross, so thank you for fulfilling Scripture
Paul020253 4 days ago
@Paul020253 I have been attacked here by a OC and several RC's. I have repeatedly asked for you and them to stop posting to me - but you keep attacking. Don't try to turn it around and claim to be the one under assault.
I simply defend the Gospel of Christ by scripture and reason, which is what I am called to do as a Christian.
Jude 1:3 "...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints."
kenrich777 4 days ago
@kenrich777 I have gone through all yr postings and their replies, I have also checked on some of yr links. Not once have I found anyone attacking you, making insinuations against yr character. All I find is responses to your postings, and since this is a DISCUSSION board, that is only natural. You are entitled to give us yr opinion about the meaning of Scripture and we ours. If you imply that your view is identical to God's then I am afraid you will be challenged. The Christian
Paul020253 4 days ago
@Paul020253 Church has been around for 2000 years. I, for one, find it hard to believe that Our Lord would allow His People to be as wrong as you imply they are, especially in the light of Jn16 v 13, until you have come along. I ahve no doubt you are a good man, you love yr wife and you don't kick the cat, but you are not God and it is that view that we challenge.
Paul020253 4 days ago
@Paul020253 The Spirit of truth teaches, and tells what is to come. It was prophesied that a great falling away would occur - which did happen. Grievous wolves did not spare the flock, just as Paul said would happen at his departing.
I know of only one who claims to be God and that is the Roman Pontiff. Pope Leo XIII - We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty...
Pope Pius V - The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth...
kenrich777 3 days ago
@kenrich777 I would suggest you look at Church HIstory and study the events around 1054 when the West fell away from the The True Church over two matters-the unscriptual filioque clause of The Creed and the position of the Bishop of Rome. I would also suggest that you look carefully at The Reformation which turned everyone into what Protestants attack the Bishop of Rome for doing-being the arbiter of Truth
Paul020253 3 days ago
@Paul020253 The Church of even the 4th century had little semblance to Biblical Christianity, so when schism took place, neither side was the true Church.
Just like a Jew was not one by succession from Abraham, but by faith (Romans 9 1-8), a Christian (or a Church) is not one by apostolic succession, but by faith. (Continued...)
kenrich777 3 days ago
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@Paul020253 (contination...) Tertullian tells us that those churches whose faith is other than apostolic faith are not apostolic churches
I share the same position as developed here:
christian-history(dot)org/faq-oral-tradition(dot)html
kenrich777 3 days ago
@kenrich777 Tertullian fell away from the True Faith and joined the Montanists. If you insist on quoting heretics, I will be unable to take you at all seriously. Please I beg of you, read up on Church History before making such statements
Paul020253 3 days ago
@Paul020253 Tertuian is one of the most quoted of ECF's mostly by Catholics because taken out of context some of his statements can be construed to support their position.
As I already said, there is broad consensus, if you don't like him, pick another, the ECF's were pretty consistent in this area.
Just replace the (dot) twice - love and respect.
facebook(dot)com/note(dot)php?note_id=325567580808926
kenrich777 2 days ago
@kenrich777 Tertullian is also quoted and beloved by modern day Pentecostals because he joined the Montanists whom they percieve to be an early form of Pentecostalism. The fact that Montanus named one of his lady friends as the Holy Spirit is something they ignore. Because Tertullian left the true faith, quoting him out of context is next to useless because if it was after he joined the Montanists it would be irrelevant because the Montanists were not Christian
Paul020253 1 day ago
@Paul020253 As I said, if you don't like him, pick another, there was broad consensus on the role of scripture among the apostolic Fathers.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III.
"... the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith." WHY ARE YOU STILL POSTING TO ME?
kenrich777 23 hours ago
@kenrich777 Again you either miss the point or twist it ( I am not sure which is worse). In an Orthodox service 75% comes straight out of the BIble, our Church Year mirrors the events in the BIble, so clearly the Scriptures are central to the Orthodox Faith. The problem is how Protestants interpret Scripture-thye use their rational minds, the OC leaves it up to the Holy Spirit inspired Tradition (2Thess2v 15, 3v6)
Paul020253 11 hours ago
@Paul020253 The OC and RCC have a different Gospel. Salvation is by relationship with Christ Jesus, not relationship to a Church, or it's sacraments.
Rituals have replaced relationship, just as with the Pharisees. It is dead religion that replaces Christ and the salvation that comes ONLY by direct personal relationship with HIM,
There is no power or virtue in icons, or relics, or rituals, the power is in Christ alone and we receive salvation ONLY by faith in HIM.
kenrich777 8 hours ago
@kenrich777 Cant speak for the RCC-ask brant or jhb-but u are so wrong about OC-u clearly know nothing despite what u say about us. The Church is the Body of Christ (1Cor 14) so to have a relationship with Christ is to have a relationship with the Church-u can't have 1 without the other. There is nothing "dead" about my relationship with Christ. In fact 1 reason for leaving Protestantism for Orthodoxy was because I found an experience of God there which was missing from Protestantism
Paul020253 7 hours ago
@Paul020253 Where in 1 Cor. 14 do you see OC, it's not there. When a RC reads it he sees RCC but it's not there. The Church is not an institution in that sense, it is the people who truly believe and are sealed with the Spirit. We are the Church and the temple of God, not a building or institution. Gifts of administration and teaching are distributed by the Spirit allowing for local structure, not elaborate hierarchies not found in scripture. (continued...)
kenrich777 6 hours ago
Continuation... Sacerdotalism or sacramentalism negates the principle that grace is understood in Biblical terms: relationally to Christ through faith, and through faith alone.
The sacraments should celebrate and point to the person and work of Christ, they do not function as the vehicle through which the quasi–personal energies of God are extended to us for the sake of metaphysical and abstract union with them.
christiantruth(dot)com/articles/orthodoxyapophaticism(dot)html (more)
kenrich777 6 hours ago
@kenrich777 There are problems with the OC's apophaticism that are quite distressing,
Primarily that it leads to a view of God that diminishes his personal nature. Seeing God as overly transcendent and unknowable, rather than personal and interactive.
If you have seen me, you have seen the Father John 14:9 Immanual God with us.
MT 1:23
Besides which, there are other problems discussed in the article below.
christiantruth(dot)com/articles/orthodoxycominghome(dot)html
kenrich777 6 hours ago
@kenrich777 Primarily you are wrong, apophaticism leads to a revelation of Who God really is. God is transcendant and unknowable-until the Second Person was incarnated, then things changed. That is why we can use icons as part of our worship. These issues are discussed in the book "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter Gilquist-published by Conciliar Press. It is a book all Evangelicals should read
Paul020253 4 hours ago
@Paul020253 Unknowing does not lead to knowing, it leads to ignorance.
kenrich777 4 hours ago
@kenrich777 God is unknowable-except by Revelation.Protestantism rejects Revelation for Rationalism
Paul020253 3 hours ago
@kenrich777
Ken,
God gave us reasoning..okay, humor me for a moment and follow this. Reasoning is a unique gift that ONLY human beings have. God created us with a rational nature.
Okay, now, having said that. I can't speak for Paul below, but I think he and I are trying to explain to you nicely that: Protestanism, or Scripture..."alone" is NEITHER Rational or Reasonable.
God is a God of order, Ken, (Wisdom 11:21), I'd think you'd agree to that, huh? Your faith is DISORDER. I've provided..
09Brant 2 hours ago
@kenrich777 ..continued..
enough examples below that would cause anybody of reason to question the validilty of why Scripture alone does not, can not, will not, never was supposed to, work.
Please, for the love of God, put the pride to the side and take a look at the whole picture.
Ken, you're not American right? Well, in America we have a saying: Liberalism is a mental disorder. (unless of course you're an Obama lover) As paul below pointed out..liberalism is a form of rationalism which is..
09Brant 2 hours ago
@kenrich777 ..continued..
condemend by the Church!
Okay, now, my turn to humor you! Let's say it's not the RCC, then what is the Church? Each individual with their own logic of what Scripture says to them?
Ken, you may get to the top of the mountain when all is said and done , but your missing the whole fun adventure of getting there in favor of what the Bible says to you.
09Brant 2 hours ago
@kenrich777 Aside from the books of the NT, the earliest Christian writings that has survived is a liturgical manual, or what we can call a Missal, contained within the Didache. The early Church were united in their concern to preserve the Eucharistic doctrines, hence the witness to the Church's Eucharistic doctrines is unbroken from the time of the Gospels till today for both RC's and Orthodox.
I'm surprised that your one sided Protestant "history" doesn't mention this.
Furthermore, maybe...
09Brant 6 hours ago
@09Brant That the breaking of bread was taught and should continue to be practiced is not the issue. The issue is, the manner and meaning is corrupted, as with transubstantiation.
kenrich777 5 hours ago
@kenrich777 says you and your Protestant forefathers, certainly not Christian or Church history, Ken. The Real Presence was taught and preserved until Martin Luther was having a bad day.
I don't know if it is wilfull ignorance on your part, denial, or Satan blinding you...(Or God for that matter) with pride. I don't know? Like Paul, I can't figure out why you can't grasp these topics. A simple research in history would have explained this to you.
Thanks for the considerate reply though.
09Brant 3 hours ago
@kenrich777 ...continued..
maybe you can explain to me why the Real Presence was never disputed until the Reformers.
Once again, you say without saying, that the Apostles, early Christians, ECF's, and early Church were ALL wrong until you Prots became "enlightened" by this..."holy 'spirit'".
09Brant 6 hours ago
@09Brant The RCC reads it's definition of "real presence" into the ECF's statements. The reformers simply returned to the original meaning, apparent from the context as spiritually present.
kenrich777 5 hours ago
@kenrich777 If that is true then what we say is irrelevant. If the only thing that is important is a nebulous, subjective faith, then it doesnt matter if one worships in RCC, Orthodox Church or that the Holy kenrich777. The fact that you continually rant on about how we worship shows you dont really believe what you say.
Paul020253 4 hours ago
@Paul020253 What I maintain is that the ground and pillar of our faith is scripture, the Gospel once and for all delivered to the saints. Salvation is in Christ alone - twist that anyway you wish, it is still the truth.
kenrich777 4 hours ago
@kenrich777 That isnt what the discussion is about, it is about how the Scriptures are interpreted-RCC use the magisterum, Protestants their own reasoning, Orthodox the Holy Spirit inspired Holy Tradition. I dont know why you are unable to grasp this.
Paul020253 3 hours ago
@Paul020253 Jesus and the apostles challenge us to understand scripture "...The Sacred Writings, which are able to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus." (2 Tim. 3:15) "...With meekness receive the ingrafted word which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) "These things I am writing to you that you may know that you have eternal life..." (1 John 5:13). "search the Scriptures" (John 5:39), "have you not read?" (Matt. 12:3; 12:5; 19:4; 21:16,42; 22:31)
kenrich777 2 hours ago
@kenrich777 In regards to what you posted to Paul....there was NO New Testament!
09Brant 2 hours ago
I care not what councils and popes say - this is what God says:
grow in knowledge (2 Pet. 3:18), study (2 Tim. 2:15), exercise senses (Heb. 5:14), search (Acts 17:11), receive (James 1:21), read (Eph. 3:3-4), desire it (2 Pet. 2:2), let it unfold (Psalm 119:130), meditate on it day and night (Psalm 1:2) hear it read (Rev. 1:3), have it preached (2 Tim. 4:2-4; 1 Pet. 4:11), test what is said (1 John 4:1; Matt. 7:15-16), prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21).
kenrich777 2 hours ago
No where is a infallible interpreter required, other than the indwelling Holy Spirit guiding into all truth. In fact the believer is told to study scripture and apply it to their life.
bible(dot)ca/cath-bible-church-interpreter(dot)htm
kenrich777 2 hours ago
@kenrich777
But, you must address Ken either to me or yourself personally, if the Holy Spirit guides "into truth" why are so many of you Bible "alone" believers at odds with one another?
That would lead to questioning this Holy Spirit, if that is what the Spirit does. I've provided examples below a few pages how this cannot be possible or what Jesus meant for His people.
09Brant 2 hours ago
@kenrich777 And your point is? I regularly study the Bible, I encourage my Catechesis group to read the Bible, everything I believe in and practice is in the BIble. Just throwing out a lot BIble verses is meaningless, even the Devil does that (Mt 4v6), all it tells me is that you know how to use a concordance
Paul020253 1 hour ago
@kenrich777 The ecclesiology of the Eastern Church is different from the West-it was one of the reasons for the Great Schism of 1054. The West made the Bp of Rome responsible for interpretong Scripture & head of the Church. When the West imploded in 1054 at the Reformation, every Protestant became The Interpreter of Scripture & head of his own church-witness yr commitment to yr own opinions as to what Scripture means & the excessive number of denominations that the West has generated
Paul020253 5 hours ago
@Paul020253 The differences are moot points since both were spawned by the same institutional corruption, and neither are the true Church. Already covered.
I don't have time for this, please stop posting to me. If you reject the links I gave, you will also reject what I say, there is no point to continue...
kenrich777 4 hours ago
@kenrich777 Hardly moot-Orthodox see all Western Christians as the same-the Pope is the First Protestant. Our differences with the RCC are the same as all Protestant groups
Paul020253 3 hours ago
@Paul020253 It is moot. If two people walk through a mud puddle and then go their separate ways, both can point to the other and say you are dirty, but neither can claim to be clean.
kenrich777 3 hours ago
@kenrich777 The Orthodox Church has changed very little since the Day of Pentecost. The West departed when they added the filioque to the Creed. The West further imploded in 1512 at the Reformation. In the light of 2 Tim 4 v3&4 who is the one not walking thru the puddle? The one who has been around since the Day of Pentecost? Or the relative new comer? (my guess is that whatever group you belong to has been around for less than 100 years)
Paul020253 1 hour ago
@kenrich777 I am not sure why you chose the 4th cent, which produced the Nicene Creed, the greatest Trinitarian document ever produced (I wonder, are you Trinitarian?) Neither am I sure what you mean by "Biblical Christianity". Christianity of all hues is based on the historical record of the New Testament-that Christ lived and died in Palestine and his fo