FATALISM

[whysohardto]

Does this toy have batteries we can pull out????????????

[poofacetherisen]

Jews also say if you're not with them your dead. They mean it. Check the Talmud.

[PersevereDespiteThem]

Sir, please calm down and read your Bible again. Your position would be better received or at least contemplated if you just explain your side in a calm and collected manner. If you choose to make a counter argument then it would be wise to use scripture and forgo the ranting. God Bless!

[drumrnva]

Sounds like someone's got a case of the "Mondays".

[RomansGalatians]

@drumrnva Funny

[dreamsofbliss]

dear sir, why are you so upset? you seem like your excited to put down other brothers in the faith. i claim no side but in theology i am most like a calvinist, not because of john calvin but because of biblical truth.

[jonatbmounts]

Another grumpy, hateful ranter who unintentionally shows that he has no real understanding of Biblical texts or issues the longer he goes on...

I couldn't watch the whole thing because he gets so annoying. What is he trying to accomplish? Ah, appeasing his angry and bitter heart.

[Ranwolfe]

A calvinist cant preach what he really believes to win souls.

[tomopotamus]

This guy's a little mad, no? lol

Everyone agrees that God the Father has no body, he's spirit. Same with the Holy Spirit. Christ took on a human form.

Any thing else would be an anthropomorphism.

[stegokitty]

Sir, please look: Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.

What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do. (Isaiah 46:9-11)

[jdw5a]

Fatalism is a philosophy term, and it has a definition. You never define it! You don't know what it means!

Reformed theology has absolutely NOTHING to do with fatalism.

I mentioned earlier three verses, Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 46:10 and Daniel 4:35, which mention God knowing, causing and doing all things according to His will.

Also this pastor quotes the book of Revelation a lot? Is it REALLY about the end of time when Jesus returns? Isn't this an example of God knowing and declaring the future?

[LastDaysMinstrel]

I'll define Fatalism. Fatalism is a Greek philosophy/religion that believes that all things are predestined by the "Fates."

Calvinism = Fatalism with the exception that the "Fates" are replaced by God. I just wish Calvinists would admit this, but I never found any that would. I've never heard or read a cogent defense of the Calvinist view of double predestination, either. Yeah, I've heard the ones about dropping a pencil, or the boats in the water, but they don't explain anything.

[jdw5a]

For the third time in this discussion, i'll bring up Isaiah 45:7, Isaiah 46:10 and Daniel 4:35, which mention God knowing, causing and doing all things according to His will. And just for good measure, Ephesians 1:11 states that God accomplishes all things according to the counsel of His will.

I'd rather start with the biblical arguments for Calvinism, rather than the philosophical arguments, but since everyone wants to conveniently ignore the biblical evidence, I digress...

[jdw5a]

By the "fates" I assume you mean the idea of an impersonal force such as destiny, fortune or one of the Greek gods or goddesses which determines the inevitable end of all things.

Fatalism is the belief everything unfolds as the inevitable result of abstract, impersonal forces like destiny, fortune or the fates. This isnt Calvinism.

[LastDaysMinstrel]

Assume? Why don't you make the effort and find out for yourself instead of guessing?

[jdw5a]

Another significantly different philosophical idea is DETERMINISM. According to this view, all things are determined as the result of a long line of cause/effect actions that are linked together. This is closer to Calvinism, but it is still different.

Within determinism, there is a disagreement over whether determinism is compatible or incompatible with free will.

[jdw5a]

Finally, Calvinists believe is something different from fatalism or determinism, called predestination, in which the personal God, not an impersonal force, determines the inevitable end. And God sets in motion the cause and effect chain of events which will lead all things to work out in the end according to His purpose and design, which is ultimately to glorify Himself.

Calvinism is often labeled "soft determinism" or "compatibilism" and I can see the similarities.

But NEVER fatalism!

[Chinomareno]

By Accepting that explanation you condemn god as a Sadist. By his plan men are ruined in his hell. It removes any personal responsibilty for sin and make religion redundant.

In any case, what a pathetic god that is. One who creates the entire universe, time and space with a mastery over existence; only for the praise of men. He's not even transendant enough to stop vainly congratulating himself. Is this the grace your god is meant to reveal?

It's worse than fatalism.

[jdw5a]

I agree. A god who ruins men by sending them to hell with no hope removes responsibility for sin and the need for religion.

I agree that a god who creates purely for the sake of impressing and earning the praise of men is pathetic. And a god who vainly congratulates himself is certainly not worthy of worship.

But what does any of this have to do with Calvinism?

[Chinomareno]

In your own words,

"And God sets in motion the cause and

effect chain of events which will lead all things to work out in the end according to His purpose and design, which is ultimately to glorify Himself."

Calvanism basically rams home something that can be implied by having an ultimately responsible designer.

I have no idea anyone can reconcile the idea of god being just and predestination. Predestination renders poeple no different from stones tumbling down a slope, kicked by god.

[jdw5a]

What do you mean by God being just?

It God was totally fair, then all sin must be punished. So all who sin deserve hell. Salvation, grace, election and predestination are NOT fair and just.

It seems like you're saying God's justice demands that he save everyone.

That's like saying if we pardon one guilty criminal, we are then UNJUST unless we pardon every guilty criminal.

Do you believe God knows the future? If God creates knowing the evil outcome, is he not ultimately responsible?

[Chinomareno]

Can you read?

"And God sets in motion the cause and effect chain of events which will lead all things to work out in the end according to His purpose and design, which is ultimately to glorify Himself."

God pushed you off a cliff yet you blame gravity(he provides) for your death.

LastDaysMinstrel is right, this is woeful. Calvanists make absolutely no sense trying to divorse their doctrine from fatalism.

[jdw5a]

Can you show how Calvinism=Fatalism? I already showed that it doesn't. (And I mean SHOW it, not just state it.)

The Bible says in Isa. 46:10 that God declares the end from the beginning, yet sinners are still condemned because of their sin. Even in Acts 2:23 Peter blames the men of Israel for Jesus death AND YET it was due to Gods plan and foreknowledge.

Was Peter mistaken?

AGAIN:Do you believe God knows the future? If God creates knowing the evil outcome, is he not ultimately responsible?

[LastDaysMinstrel]

You haven't SHOWN anything. I gave you the definition of fatalism. If you disagree with my definition, why don't you give us the correct one?

Fatalism believes all is predetermined by "The Fates," and Calvinism believes all is predetermined by God.  Both belief systems hold that man is powerless to change anybody's destiny.

It is certainly possible to accept and believe in God's sovereignty without embracing Calvinism. Calvinism follows a man, as Paul writes against in 1 Cor:1.

[jdw5a]

I agree with your definition of Fatalism. I added to it to make it relevant to this discussion.

I said: "God sets in motion the cause and

effect chain of events which will lead all things to work out in the end according to His purpose and design, which is ultimately to glorify Himself."

Causation is irrelevant in Fatalism. It is more like determinism, which is not Fatalism.

You said fates=God. How is a personal, loving, relational, sovereign God like an impersonal, abstract "force"?

[jdw5a]

Youre not seeing the difference between Calvinism and Fatalism because the difference is in the details. Youre thinking too broadly and vaguely. There are a dozen beliefs that are similar to X believes all is predetermined by X. The difference is who/how/on what basis is it all predetermined.

Fatalism gives the source (fates), but no process. Determinism give the process (Causation), but no source.

Calvinism gives the source (God) and the process (Causation).

[Chinomareno]

You haven't proved it, you just reconfirm it then claim some hollow victory.

In your words.

"A god who ruins men by sending them to hell with no hope removes responsibility for sin and the need for religion."

Ultimately he offers them no choices if it's all by design. You are just replacing fate with god, that is Fatalism.

I'm done with this, your dogma makes no sense, face it. Then you wouldn't have to lie so unconvicingly all the time.

[jdw5a]

I didn't claim victory. And where did I lie? Could you please interact with the scripture i posted?

In Acts 2:23, if Jesus' death was according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, then did the men who killed Jesus have a choice to not kill him?

If not, then why does Peter blame them?

[jdw5a]

There are many questions I've asked that you have not answered:

Do you believe in foreknowledge?

How do we have free will if God has always known what will happen?

Can it happen contrary to what God's knows with 100% certainty?

Is that any different from you're argument against Calvinism?

If God creates, knowing the evil outcome, is he not ultimately responsible?

How do you deal with Isaiah 46:10? Daniel 4:35? Ephesians 1:11? Acts 2:23?

You're not done, you haven't even started!

[Chinomareno]

I don't believe in the veracity of scripture altogether however this is a problem facing all religions with an omnipotent deity.

The only way to make religions plausable is if god is a falable being. He cannot represent endless love and mercy if he's responsible for the state of the natural world.

In as far as theological arguements I can sympathise with Calvanists in this respect. An ultimate designer has ultimate authority and resonsiblility for creation and destiny.

[Chinomareno]

However, if it's true god's responsiblity etxends to all things then by that fact sin and many theological principles are rendered void.

We are left with a system of though not based on anything tangable or logic inspired but a mess of undefendable claims.

The only way to accept Calvanism is to accept god is a degenerate unaccountable dictator. The idea of a personal merciful god is destroyed by the fact he conspires in the destruction of his own creation.

[spicenut]

I sincerely hope this guy doesn't get paid for his "preaching".

[Pilgrimsarbour]

The confessions state that God is without a body based on John 4:24: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (KJV) If God appears to man as a man (called a Theophany or Christophany) He does so as the second person of the Trinity, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. God the Father is Spirit. God the Son died for the sins of all those who would believe in Him. God the Holy Spirit sanctifies us, bringing us finally home to glory in Christ Jesus.

[jdw5a]

Do you believe that Isaiah 45:7 is literally true? What about Isaiah 46:10? How about Daniel 4:35?

Are these verses not literally true?

[youratm]

This guy is a Oneness and Holyness

AT 4.11 Matt 23,37

Jesus is telling jerusalem that no matter how bad they treat and teach his elect . Not to worry God will Save his Elect. I am so Glad I am one of the little chicks under his wing.

[camis2222]

Well , I hope Calvin will be able to save you , because you are so proud of him.

[anastasisariel]

Wow, I've never been so proud to be a Calvanist in my whole life.... lol lol lol

[jdw5a]

You misspelled Calvinism :)

Seriously tho, this guy has no clue what Calvinism really is, as most non/anti-Calvinists do.

In stead of being proud of being a Calvinist, we should be sorrowful that so many people do not understand the truth and glory of the teaching of God's grace and sovereignty in salvation.

[sincerelygideon]

mahahahaha this guy is nuts!

[camis2222]

Perhaps you are not equiped to comprehend the gravity of this message.

[LaneCh]

LOL!  Favorited.