what those lazy greek socialist bastards really wants to grab onto is merkel's(Germany's) money bags!these lazy greek socialists expect the world("GERMANY") to pay the greek tab,,,or I'll burn down my country!1 third of greece's population is permanantly on the dole(socialists)and 1 third are public employees(people that have a good connections)and produce nothing,retire at 50 the rest actually work,pay high taxes and support the rest of the country! DO YOU THINK THIS IS FAIR A SYSTEM?I DON't!!
And please don't misunderstand: I don't blame the Greeks for anything. It is just not right to argue this whole thing benefitted Germans in some way.
das blöde nazideutschland wird im extremfall 27% "eurer" schulden zahlen. mal sehen ob ihr unser geld dann immer noch nicht wollt! bei 300 milliarden schulden (abzüglich dem was der iwf übernimmt) kommen dann sicherlich mehr als 10 milliarden zusammen. und das alles nur weil die griechische regierung die EU betrogen hat um in die eurozone zu kommen!! sry dass wir nicht sofort den zahlemann machen
The mumbo jumbo Germanic media promote in order to brainwash Germanics : "Hardworking Germanics who pay everybody out of their good heart while they get nothing in return".
I really wonder, how you people can be that stupid? Have you thought that you have benefits from EU and euro or something? Maybe not?
The EU exists only to weaken Germany. And the EURO is another brilliant instrument to achieve that goal. Germany is in this EU exactly because they lost the 2nd WW. It is reparations nothing else.
And you're right that Germans get brainwashed: by the Pro-EU Propaganda.
You just repeated your national myth.A German economist who lives permanently in Greece said that exactly,that Germans are taught to believe euro is there just to punish Germans for ww2,omiting the benefits you get out of it.Germans cannot be proEU when they say the exact thing as yourself
You shouldn't victimize yourselves by expressing such naive views,Germany owns much to its present economic expansion to euro which is just your mark coin with a different name adopted by your export partners
What did i wrote? That you are pro-EU? Obviously you aren't because of the brainwashing to believe you are being punished for your defeat in ww2, which is a fallacy/national myth of yours. As i said your economy is based on the common currency and EU, and especially you and the other heavy industries earned too much from euro to express such views. Show some gratitude to the rest of us paritcipating in EU and euro zone for your wealth today
Compare were Germany was economicly when the EU got integrated and compared to the developement of Countries like Greece, Spain etc with and without EU.
Second: The level of export to EURO-states has not improved compared with pre-EURO-times.
I know Greece also suffers from the EURO. But that does not mean Germany benefits. Greece is just an add-on to the EURO-zone that is insignifficant (economy, size etc...). [... to be continued...]
Greece is 3% of eurozone, obviously not that significant, but i guess Greece isn't the only issue you have by being against EU. If you add Portugal, Spain and other EU "poorer" countries without heavy industries which could buy German products (e.g Poland) you have a significant economic size.
About this you wrote, that Germany's exports income didn't increase by euro, is wrong. Just google "German trade surplus hits record", an article of BBC. I guess pro-EU propaganda didn't tell this :)
@Apokorwnioths1984 Hi you asked me to google the BBC article "German trade surplus hits record".
I did. And this article exactly proves YOU wrong: "The surplus was 17.2bn euros (£12bn; $23bn) in October, driven by exports destined for outside the EU"
@1040655 I didn't mean that one, you can also visit the second article of bbc with the same title. It mentions the annual trade surplass which hit an all time record, not that one you posted which concerns a specific month : "The trade surplus was 160.5bn euros (£110bn; $192bn) in 2005, compared with 156.1bn euros a year earlier."
Everybody knows the largest trade partners of Germany are EU members. This isn't a secret to anyone.
My point is that the trade with the Europeans is not dependent on the Euro. We also have a lot of export to Poland and to Switzerland that is not even in the EU. Same with Turkey.
So the numbers that you mention show the strong competitivenes of Germany but they do not show that Germany benefits from the EURO.
German export to the Euro-Zone did not improve since we have the EURO (relatively to the export to Non-EURO-Countries).
How you can be so sure that exports to euro-zone countries didn't increase with the euro and the all time record surplass during the euro era doesn't have to do with euro itself? Are there any particular charts? It's not only about competitiveness you know. It would be naive to believe that the rest exporters aren't competitive. See for example siemens methods and how it was deriving billions from corrupted euro states like Greece by bribing politicians.
@Apokorwnioths1984 I know that Poland is in the EU but they are not in the EURO-Zone, and that's what we are talking about.
About the statistics I can be so sure because I read this figures in a news article at FAZ (in german google: ""sollen in die Planwirtschaft auswandern") and everyone can check this at the internet.
And of course German companies adjust their methods to local cultures. In some countries you can't have business at all without bribes.
@1040655 Establishment of business is not the issue. If a company can offer qualitive products in a competitive price obviously it doesn't need to bribe and i believe Siemens isn't the only scandalous case of German company. Problems start when a copany offers products in higher prices and wants to throw away its competitors through that kind of methods. Greece was paying everything 2 and 3 times higher that it should. No need to guess where these money were going
@1040655 This German article says that, but i can't see particular stats included. It seems a bit anti-euro and to be honest i am not surprised since it is common of German media to follow this direction.
Have you wondered what do people think outside Germany? An article of a British economist Adam S. Posen: "Having a Large Euro Area Is an Advantage for Germany"
Neither German nor Greek, he doesn't have an incentive to do propaganda. If Germany wasn't benefited by euro, it would simply leave.
@1040655 It would be a bit contradicting if German exports towards euro countries didn't increase when the 2 top export partners of Germany are France (by far the first) and Netherlands. It would be a bit irrational if non-euro partners like USA increased their imports from Germany while dollar was losing its value , thus pretty difficult from them to buy more German products. The same goes for the rest non-euro countries with weaker coins. It's common logic, and this economist agrees.
@Apokorwnioths1984 Exports to France and the Netherland has nothing to do with the euro. It's because they are neighbours and the Netherland export more to Germany than the other way round.
And Germany DID increase exports to the US while the dollar is losing in value (EUR/DOLLAR went from 0.90 to 1.50)
For countries like Greece you are right, but that is only the case because Germany delivered and they DON'T PAY! German taxpayers pay the bill for this Greek consumption.
@SparerDE Exports of Germany hit all time record whilst it was in the euro. You can't say euro had nothing to do with it. It had many things to do with it.
Also you are wrong about German taxpayers. German taxpayers sponsored the expansion of German companies, not Greek consumption. Your politicians and media just use Greece as an excuse for the fact your companies and state re-invest their earnings to expand, instead of raising your salaries or applicating social policy.
@Apokorwnioths1984 Germany was the country exporting most in the entire world in 1986-1988 and 1990 already.
Greece accumulated massive debt because of the euro. At the same time German exports to Greece and others rose.
But the end of the story is, that the taxpayers of Germany have to pay the Greek debt. So bottom line Germans bought their own exports, wouldn't you agree?
So there is really no reason for Germans to be "grateful" for these export-opportunities. It's more like a scham.
II provided particular article some months ago which says that German exports HIT ALL TIME RECORD in 2006. So, even if Germany was a top exporter in 1990, in 2006 it exported even more than that, and that was the goal of your companies and government.
The end of the story is not that taxpayers of Germany will have to pay for Greek debt. It is that German taxpayers have to pay the expansion of German banks, companies and the policy of your governments. Greeks got nothing out of this in the end.
I don't disagree. German people didn't benefit out of this, but German companies did. I am saying that if your governments and companies weren't so thirsty for public economic growth and expansions, but for prosperity of German people,you would have no problems now and everybody would be happy (including Greeks who wouldn't have to go through that)
Greeks didn't benefit either. For like 7-8 years FEW people consumed over their abilities, and now ALL people will go back to 1950s quality of life
...so I dont blame Greece for forcing Germany into the EURO-zone. Greece of course has no authority in this way.
It is in fact a French thing. They have to contain Germany....bad luck that the Greek (voluntarily) joined this project. The whole EU thing is all about France not letting Germany become the dominant power in Europe. Look at the Franco-German history of the last 200 years and you know why.
About the Propaganda you mentionned: There is no anti-Greek or Anti-EURO propaganda here in Germany, but a strong propaganda Pro-EU. The German propaganda-system is one of the most expensive of the world (Over 7 bn per year for state-tv).
Maybe you got a wrong picture of German media: guess what intelligent Propaganda does if you want to get taxpayers to carry some billions of German money to Athens: You give room to some downplayed anger people have if you want to steal their money...
@1040655 First i never worried a second that Merkel actually means what she says. Pretty obvious she aims to win elections and to convince German electorate. This is the only thing we can agree. This though, cancels what you said about proEU tendency in Germany. German voter is already negatively prejudiced against euro and countries like Greece, that's why Merkel tries to cinvince him by saying she will give nothing. This doesn't point out "intelligent" pro-EU propaganda :)
... for socialist spending. Then you slowly talk them into the "absolute necessity" and "self-interest" of "helping". This is already underway.
But of course no German will ever hear on television how f**d up Greece really is, so don't worry.
And if you are worried because of Merkel's recent hesitancy to handing German money to Greece: don't be, it is only show. We have some elections in Germany on May 9th. After this the money will flow... :-)
About this you said Greece and other similar countries have been benefited more than Germany. Greece before it enters EU had 60% of GDP per capita of EU's average in 1980,and 75% particularly of France. Now Greece has 95% of EU average
It wasn't a poor shithole before EU, people had a good standard of living (income comparable to TODAY's Portugal), our exports income much bigger (drahma was not as strong coin, meaning our products were competitive to others). Most important, we didn't have debt
what those lazy greek socialist bastards really wants to grab onto is merkel's(Germany's) money bags!these lazy greek socialists expect the world("GERMANY") to pay the greek tab,,,or I'll burn down my country!1 third of greece's population is permanantly on the dole(socialists)and 1 third are public employees(people that have a good connections)and produce nothing,retire at 50 the rest actually work,pay high taxes and support the rest of the country! DO YOU THINK THIS IS FAIR A SYSTEM?I DON't!!
bobb22ful 5 months ago
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vabilas28 8 months ago
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And please don't misunderstand: I don't blame the Greeks for anything. It is just not right to argue this whole thing benefitted Germans in some way.
It didn't!
SparerDE 9 months ago
Merkel du dumme NAZI SCHLAMPE wir wollen euer scheiss geld nicht!!! Gibt uns erst unsere 10 milliarden wieder di ihr uns schuldet!!!!
tolis13100 2 years ago
Comment removed
Antillektuell 1 year ago
das blöde nazideutschland wird im extremfall 27% "eurer" schulden zahlen. mal sehen ob ihr unser geld dann immer noch nicht wollt! bei 300 milliarden schulden (abzüglich dem was der iwf übernimmt) kommen dann sicherlich mehr als 10 milliarden zusammen. und das alles nur weil die griechische regierung die EU betrogen hat um in die eurozone zu kommen!! sry dass wir nicht sofort den zahlemann machen
Antillektuell 1 year ago
In the end Germany will pay. Believe me...its the hobby of German politicians to give away the tax money to other countries.
The best thing is: Germans don't even want something in exchange for their money.
So just ask the German government and they will write you a check as they always do for every European friend.
1040655 2 years ago
The mumbo jumbo Germanic media promote in order to brainwash Germanics : "Hardworking Germanics who pay everybody out of their good heart while they get nothing in return".
I really wonder, how you people can be that stupid? Have you thought that you have benefits from EU and euro or something? Maybe not?
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
@Apokorwnioths1984
The EU exists only to weaken Germany. And the EURO is another brilliant instrument to achieve that goal. Germany is in this EU exactly because they lost the 2nd WW. It is reparations nothing else.
And you're right that Germans get brainwashed: by the Pro-EU Propaganda.
1040655 1 year ago
You just repeated your national myth.A German economist who lives permanently in Greece said that exactly,that Germans are taught to believe euro is there just to punish Germans for ww2,omiting the benefits you get out of it.Germans cannot be proEU when they say the exact thing as yourself
You shouldn't victimize yourselves by expressing such naive views,Germany owns much to its present economic expansion to euro which is just your mark coin with a different name adopted by your export partners
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
@Apokorwnioths1984
"Germany owns much to its present economic "
You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
And I AM NOT ProEU - and proud of it.
1040655 1 year ago
What did i wrote? That you are pro-EU? Obviously you aren't because of the brainwashing to believe you are being punished for your defeat in ww2, which is a fallacy/national myth of yours. As i said your economy is based on the common currency and EU, and especially you and the other heavy industries earned too much from euro to express such views. Show some gratitude to the rest of us paritcipating in EU and euro zone for your wealth today
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
What you write contradicts the facts.
Compare were Germany was economicly when the EU got integrated and compared to the developement of Countries like Greece, Spain etc with and without EU.
Second: The level of export to EURO-states has not improved compared with pre-EURO-times.
I know Greece also suffers from the EURO. But that does not mean Germany benefits. Greece is just an add-on to the EURO-zone that is insignifficant (economy, size etc...). [... to be continued...]
1040655 1 year ago
Greece is 3% of eurozone, obviously not that significant, but i guess Greece isn't the only issue you have by being against EU. If you add Portugal, Spain and other EU "poorer" countries without heavy industries which could buy German products (e.g Poland) you have a significant economic size.
About this you wrote, that Germany's exports income didn't increase by euro, is wrong. Just google "German trade surplus hits record", an article of BBC. I guess pro-EU propaganda didn't tell this :)
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
@Apokorwnioths1984 Hi you asked me to google the BBC article "German trade surplus hits record".
I did. And this article exactly proves YOU wrong: "The surplus was 17.2bn euros (£12bn; $23bn) in October, driven by exports destined for outside the EU"
1040655 1 year ago
@1040655 I didn't mean that one, you can also visit the second article of bbc with the same title. It mentions the annual trade surplass which hit an all time record, not that one you posted which concerns a specific month : "The trade surplus was 160.5bn euros (£110bn; $192bn) in 2005, compared with 156.1bn euros a year earlier."
Everybody knows the largest trade partners of Germany are EU members. This isn't a secret to anyone.
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
@Apokorwnioths1984 I totally agree.
My point is that the trade with the Europeans is not dependent on the Euro. We also have a lot of export to Poland and to Switzerland that is not even in the EU. Same with Turkey.
So the numbers that you mention show the strong competitivenes of Germany but they do not show that Germany benefits from the EURO.
German export to the Euro-Zone did not improve since we have the EURO (relatively to the export to Non-EURO-Countries).
1040655 1 year ago
@1040655 Poland is in EU.
How you can be so sure that exports to euro-zone countries didn't increase with the euro and the all time record surplass during the euro era doesn't have to do with euro itself? Are there any particular charts? It's not only about competitiveness you know. It would be naive to believe that the rest exporters aren't competitive. See for example siemens methods and how it was deriving billions from corrupted euro states like Greece by bribing politicians.
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
@Apokorwnioths1984 I know that Poland is in the EU but they are not in the EURO-Zone, and that's what we are talking about.
About the statistics I can be so sure because I read this figures in a news article at FAZ (in german google: ""sollen in die Planwirtschaft auswandern") and everyone can check this at the internet.
And of course German companies adjust their methods to local cultures. In some countries you can't have business at all without bribes.
1040655 1 year ago
@1040655 Establishment of business is not the issue. If a company can offer qualitive products in a competitive price obviously it doesn't need to bribe and i believe Siemens isn't the only scandalous case of German company. Problems start when a copany offers products in higher prices and wants to throw away its competitors through that kind of methods. Greece was paying everything 2 and 3 times higher that it should. No need to guess where these money were going
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
@1040655 This German article says that, but i can't see particular stats included. It seems a bit anti-euro and to be honest i am not surprised since it is common of German media to follow this direction.
Have you wondered what do people think outside Germany? An article of a British economist Adam S. Posen: "Having a Large Euro Area Is an Advantage for Germany"
Neither German nor Greek, he doesn't have an incentive to do propaganda. If Germany wasn't benefited by euro, it would simply leave.
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
@1040655 It would be a bit contradicting if German exports towards euro countries didn't increase when the 2 top export partners of Germany are France (by far the first) and Netherlands. It would be a bit irrational if non-euro partners like USA increased their imports from Germany while dollar was losing its value , thus pretty difficult from them to buy more German products. The same goes for the rest non-euro countries with weaker coins. It's common logic, and this economist agrees.
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
Comment removed
SparerPauschbetrag 9 months ago
@Apokorwnioths1984 Exports to France and the Netherland has nothing to do with the euro. It's because they are neighbours and the Netherland export more to Germany than the other way round.
And Germany DID increase exports to the US while the dollar is losing in value (EUR/DOLLAR went from 0.90 to 1.50)
For countries like Greece you are right, but that is only the case because Germany delivered and they DON'T PAY! German taxpayers pay the bill for this Greek consumption.
SparerDE 9 months ago
@SparerDE Exports of Germany hit all time record whilst it was in the euro. You can't say euro had nothing to do with it. It had many things to do with it.
Also you are wrong about German taxpayers. German taxpayers sponsored the expansion of German companies, not Greek consumption. Your politicians and media just use Greece as an excuse for the fact your companies and state re-invest their earnings to expand, instead of raising your salaries or applicating social policy.
Apokorwnioths1984 9 months ago
@Apokorwnioths1984 Germany was the country exporting most in the entire world in 1986-1988 and 1990 already.
Greece accumulated massive debt because of the euro. At the same time German exports to Greece and others rose.
But the end of the story is, that the taxpayers of Germany have to pay the Greek debt. So bottom line Germans bought their own exports, wouldn't you agree?
So there is really no reason for Germans to be "grateful" for these export-opportunities. It's more like a scham.
SparerDE 9 months ago
II provided particular article some months ago which says that German exports HIT ALL TIME RECORD in 2006. So, even if Germany was a top exporter in 1990, in 2006 it exported even more than that, and that was the goal of your companies and government.
The end of the story is not that taxpayers of Germany will have to pay for Greek debt. It is that German taxpayers have to pay the expansion of German banks, companies and the policy of your governments. Greeks got nothing out of this in the end.
Apokorwnioths1984 9 months ago
Comment removed
SparerDE 9 months ago
I don't disagree. German people didn't benefit out of this, but German companies did. I am saying that if your governments and companies weren't so thirsty for public economic growth and expansions, but for prosperity of German people,you would have no problems now and everybody would be happy (including Greeks who wouldn't have to go through that)
Greeks didn't benefit either. For like 7-8 years FEW people consumed over their abilities, and now ALL people will go back to 1950s quality of life
Apokorwnioths1984 9 months ago
...so I dont blame Greece for forcing Germany into the EURO-zone. Greece of course has no authority in this way.
It is in fact a French thing. They have to contain Germany....bad luck that the Greek (voluntarily) joined this project. The whole EU thing is all about France not letting Germany become the dominant power in Europe. Look at the Franco-German history of the last 200 years and you know why.
1040655 1 year ago
About the Propaganda you mentionned: There is no anti-Greek or Anti-EURO propaganda here in Germany, but a strong propaganda Pro-EU. The German propaganda-system is one of the most expensive of the world (Over 7 bn per year for state-tv).
Maybe you got a wrong picture of German media: guess what intelligent Propaganda does if you want to get taxpayers to carry some billions of German money to Athens: You give room to some downplayed anger people have if you want to steal their money...
1040655 1 year ago
@1040655 First i never worried a second that Merkel actually means what she says. Pretty obvious she aims to win elections and to convince German electorate. This is the only thing we can agree. This though, cancels what you said about proEU tendency in Germany. German voter is already negatively prejudiced against euro and countries like Greece, that's why Merkel tries to cinvince him by saying she will give nothing. This doesn't point out "intelligent" pro-EU propaganda :)
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago
... for socialist spending. Then you slowly talk them into the "absolute necessity" and "self-interest" of "helping". This is already underway.
But of course no German will ever hear on television how f**d up Greece really is, so don't worry.
And if you are worried because of Merkel's recent hesitancy to handing German money to Greece: don't be, it is only show. We have some elections in Germany on May 9th. After this the money will flow... :-)
1040655 1 year ago
About this you said Greece and other similar countries have been benefited more than Germany. Greece before it enters EU had 60% of GDP per capita of EU's average in 1980,and 75% particularly of France. Now Greece has 95% of EU average
It wasn't a poor shithole before EU, people had a good standard of living (income comparable to TODAY's Portugal), our exports income much bigger (drahma was not as strong coin, meaning our products were competitive to others). Most important, we didn't have debt
Apokorwnioths1984 1 year ago