Hey Sam.... I have a WPN double Alto C as well (same color too XD) and my right sub hole is not a far as yours is... the reason I think is because WPN might have modified their doubles a bit... Davids and your double have the extra air hole ON TOP near the end of the second row of holes for the extra octave... mine is actually located on bottom which leads me to believe that they might have modified it a bit... I'll HOPEFULY make a video to show this some time soon... in the mean time take care
I won't disagree with your individual problem with the WPN's subholes (nor the problems of others who share your complaint), but I will say this:
as a longtime clarinet player, I am strongly accustomed to adjusting embouchure for EVERY pitch I play, and in my experiences with my WPN double, as long as I 'hear' in my mind the note I intend to play, even if I have the fingering off by up to three whole pitches, I'll still have my embouchure set correctly for the desired note. :)
You may get the desired results from that technique, however I still see it as compensating for a less favourable design compared to ocarinas by different companies.
Afterall, there are differences in clarinet instrument quality across brands too, and certainly a clarinet with a less-than-favourably designed key or mouthpiece can be played with such compensations
But hey, each to their own. If the instrument suits you, no problemo :)
@kissing88 *shrug* I can't disagree that some designs are less than ideal, but my clarinet isn't from any company that could qualify as 'less than favourable', nor is the Bach Strad trumpet, which also depends on embouchure for every note played (like all brass instruments). My point is simply that for somebody who has already put years into an embouchure-based technique for controlling pitch, this ocarina simply couldn't be any better, since it has extreme flexibility between pitches. :)
Thanks for your view.I did not make any comment about your clarinet, but was referring to a hypothetical. Another example; Some ukes may have poor setup. However, an experienced player can play with 'ease' nevertheless due to years of experience. However, this does not excuse the instrument's design quality. To me, the WPN ocarina is less than favourable :) I would like to ask out of curiosity how many other ocarinas you have tried and owned before deciding it "couldnt be any better"?
@kissing88 I've tried about eight different ocs; this is the first one I've owned since I was ten, and the one I had back then was a six-hole cheapo with Mexican designs painted on it. :P
I collect different fipple wind instruments, however, especially small flutes, so I have my share of experience with a variety of designs and levels of playability. *shrug again* What can I say? I'm content with it, because it suits exactly my requirements. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't have it.
I have the same STL double ocarina. Both sub holes seem to work fine . However, the right sub hole is a bit tricky at times. The problem i'm having is the low notes use very little breath. But, as you go up the scale, the higher notes require more breath.
By the time I hit the high C, I am blowing so hard, I can only sustain the note for about 3 seconds. Also the harder you blow the louder the volume. this would be similar to listening to the radio and turning the volume up and down between notes.
All of these problems occur only on the left chamber. The right chamber seems to be perfect. All the notes (E-B), are perfect pitch, require nearly the same breath, and are close to the same volume.
Sam, being a woodwind doubler for many years now I equate this with leaky pads. Yes, I can, when necessary, make a leaky pad work but it takes alot more effort and I'll do anything to get around it but certainly my preference is to try and avoid this situation with my equipment.
I just posted my The Last Waltz video as a response. The subholes work fine in it.
I suggest you spend more time with the ocarina. Practice making a steady note and you'll get the hang of it. It takes time, yes, but it is not impossible.
But this ocarina is not my cup of tea in terms of subholes. And as you can see from many other comments, this is quite a widespread experience *shrugs*
I'd rather spend my time on ocs with more easily accessible subholes.
Not to pick a fight with you; as I said before you're entitled to your opinion. But wouldn't that difficult subhole make it harder to play a fast song, or quick running notes? Sure, you might be able to manage the note, but it would take so much effort you better hope it's a whole note, right?
Oh thank goodness! I thought I just sucked at the double! XD Yeah... I tried sliding my finged up to the subhole to try and keep both covered and have been working on my breath control. Works a bit. I need to go visit the forums more often anways >_> But for the very same reason I'm saving up for a maparam double.
Something I forgot to mention in my previous comment: Regarding the size of the problem subhole, if that subhole was larger it would not lower the actual pitch of that note when covered. It would raise the pitches of every other note on that chamber when those holes weren't covered. It's an internal surface area/hole size ratio issue.
Sam, I agree with you concerning the distance of the sub-hole. Because of this and the curveture of material between the holes it makes it very difficult to seal both properly without alot of preparation and even then one is lucky to get a good seal.
I have the same problem with my "STL" 12-hole Alto, so I just use that one for practice. (It stays in the bottom of my purse 24/7 so I can play it whenever, lols!)
damn i want an ocarina! but broke,starving, and a student, :D my 6 hole broke :'( oh well enjoy your videos keep it up and i am sure you'll figure out the kink in this OC
That is the exact same WPN double that I use and I don't have a problem with that subhole at all, then again I have long fingers so for me it's hard to reach the subhole while playing it. Then again maybe I've just grown too used to it to tell the difference.
Just to clarify: the right sub-hole is for B (half a step lower) and the left sub-hole is for the A (a full step lower than the B) if you practice with the right sub-hole to get the B, then the left sub-hole will reach the A with very little difficulty
I probably can't but I'm not totally useless at it and that model has always sounded better than the newer one. Do you have either of the models? If so which one.
I'm thinking of getting the older one soon to compare the differences and see if it is just me. =)
About the Forte, you yourself said there was a difference in tone between the first and second chamber. I just came to the same conclusion about it that you did.
i.e. The tone doesn't actually sound like that to other people.
Nice video, was unsure of the exact reason to all this disagreement was but now it makes sense and I agree, I previously owned a stl ocarina and experienced the same inconvience, but simply thought it was my bad playing skills. lol
I would also like to add that I experience the same problems with my STL Infinity (White model, bought end 2008). The sound is beautiful, but the right subhole doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
its probably worth noting that STL has recognised their subholes have an issue themselves by the simple fact that they have new designs soon to be released that do not suffer from this problem
I've heard his too about the better models. You can also view on Teddy Tseng's store on ebay that the newer ocarinas he's putting up have a different look to them, and he subhole that Sam is discussing here seems to be larger
[sarcasm]looks like we can't STL bash anymore xD[/sarcasm]
it's good that the MAKERS are fixing their ocarinas. Maybe now TNGs and WPNs can have a good standing again in the Ocarina world
I can see what you're saying. O.o Never been able to hear it QUITE that clearly before. Definitely turns me off of STL/WPN ocarinas. If I'm going to spend that much on a double, I'm going to spend it on an ocarina that can reach every note without that much difficulty.
It's good to see ya talk and be a little casual on screen kissing. :) The case with WPN is becoming all the more clearer. I wonder if anyone else plans on showcasing questionable subs...
Hey Sam.... I have a WPN double Alto C as well (same color too XD) and my right sub hole is not a far as yours is... the reason I think is because WPN might have modified their doubles a bit... Davids and your double have the extra air hole ON TOP near the end of the second row of holes for the extra octave... mine is actually located on bottom which leads me to believe that they might have modified it a bit... I'll HOPEFULY make a video to show this some time soon... in the mean time take care
latinloco1687 1 year ago
I won't disagree with your individual problem with the WPN's subholes (nor the problems of others who share your complaint), but I will say this:
as a longtime clarinet player, I am strongly accustomed to adjusting embouchure for EVERY pitch I play, and in my experiences with my WPN double, as long as I 'hear' in my mind the note I intend to play, even if I have the fingering off by up to three whole pitches, I'll still have my embouchure set correctly for the desired note. :)
Estelore 1 year ago
@Estelore Indeed that may be the case.
But why the need?
You may get the desired results from that technique, however I still see it as compensating for a less favourable design compared to ocarinas by different companies.
Afterall, there are differences in clarinet instrument quality across brands too, and certainly a clarinet with a less-than-favourably designed key or mouthpiece can be played with such compensations
But hey, each to their own. If the instrument suits you, no problemo :)
kissing88 1 year ago
@kissing88 *shrug* I can't disagree that some designs are less than ideal, but my clarinet isn't from any company that could qualify as 'less than favourable', nor is the Bach Strad trumpet, which also depends on embouchure for every note played (like all brass instruments). My point is simply that for somebody who has already put years into an embouchure-based technique for controlling pitch, this ocarina simply couldn't be any better, since it has extreme flexibility between pitches. :)
Estelore 1 year ago
@Estelore
Thanks for your view.I did not make any comment about your clarinet, but was referring to a hypothetical. Another example; Some ukes may have poor setup. However, an experienced player can play with 'ease' nevertheless due to years of experience. However, this does not excuse the instrument's design quality. To me, the WPN ocarina is less than favourable :) I would like to ask out of curiosity how many other ocarinas you have tried and owned before deciding it "couldnt be any better"?
kissing88 1 year ago
@kissing88 I've tried about eight different ocs; this is the first one I've owned since I was ten, and the one I had back then was a six-hole cheapo with Mexican designs painted on it. :P
I collect different fipple wind instruments, however, especially small flutes, so I have my share of experience with a variety of designs and levels of playability. *shrug again* What can I say? I'm content with it, because it suits exactly my requirements. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't have it.
Estelore 1 year ago
I have the same STL double ocarina. Both sub holes seem to work fine . However, the right sub hole is a bit tricky at times. The problem i'm having is the low notes use very little breath. But, as you go up the scale, the higher notes require more breath.
Kisama001 1 year ago
By the time I hit the high C, I am blowing so hard, I can only sustain the note for about 3 seconds. Also the harder you blow the louder the volume. this would be similar to listening to the radio and turning the volume up and down between notes.
Kisama001 1 year ago
All of these problems occur only on the left chamber. The right chamber seems to be perfect. All the notes (E-B), are perfect pitch, require nearly the same breath, and are close to the same volume.
Kisama001 1 year ago
Sam, being a woodwind doubler for many years now I equate this with leaky pads. Yes, I can, when necessary, make a leaky pad work but it takes alot more effort and I'll do anything to get around it but certainly my preference is to try and avoid this situation with my equipment.
markal363 2 years ago
i really like subholes that are closer together
i also like the ones that have 'indents' that can act as runners, to help guide your finger to reach the subhole...
like panch's ocarinas, and solist's ocarinas
OcarinaSherb 2 years ago 2
I just posted my The Last Waltz video as a response. The subholes work fine in it.
I suggest you spend more time with the ocarina. Practice making a steady note and you'll get the hang of it. It takes time, yes, but it is not impossible.
ocarinadiva 2 years ago
Sure it may not be "impossible".
But this ocarina is not my cup of tea in terms of subholes. And as you can see from many other comments, this is quite a widespread experience *shrugs*
I'd rather spend my time on ocs with more easily accessible subholes.
kissing88 2 years ago
Not to pick a fight with you; as I said before you're entitled to your opinion. But wouldn't that difficult subhole make it harder to play a fast song, or quick running notes? Sure, you might be able to manage the note, but it would take so much effort you better hope it's a whole note, right?
xXSweetxNightmareXx 2 years ago
Oh thank goodness! I thought I just sucked at the double! XD Yeah... I tried sliding my finged up to the subhole to try and keep both covered and have been working on my breath control. Works a bit. I need to go visit the forums more often anways >_> But for the very same reason I'm saving up for a maparam double.
Thanks kissing for this vid! :D
PenanceAnima 2 years ago
oh the Maparam Double is truly wonderful!
The subholes won't fail you at all on those ^^
kissing88 2 years ago
Wow, it is kind of far away! I guess that would make it harder to play fast notes using the subhole. Well, thanks for showing us!
Turbo852 2 years ago
I have the same problem with the subholes.
Though I just play through it, trying just play around it.
Lol.
XxVeitieroxX 2 years ago
Something I forgot to mention in my previous comment: Regarding the size of the problem subhole, if that subhole was larger it would not lower the actual pitch of that note when covered. It would raise the pitches of every other note on that chamber when those holes weren't covered. It's an internal surface area/hole size ratio issue.
markal363 2 years ago
The entire ocarina chamber would have to be designed larger.
kissing88 2 years ago
Sam, I agree with you concerning the distance of the sub-hole. Because of this and the curveture of material between the holes it makes it very difficult to seal both properly without alot of preparation and even then one is lucky to get a good seal.
markal363 2 years ago
Hmm I keep trying to watch this video but the audio isint working properly..argh!
zombiefewd1 2 years ago
I have the same problem with my "STL" 12-hole Alto, so I just use that one for practice. (It stays in the bottom of my purse 24/7 so I can play it whenever, lols!)
foxxyrin 2 years ago
Hey Kissing! I've had the same problems with my STLO (WPL) Alto-C 12 Hole.
The subholes both work, but the right one is extremely sensitive and you have to play very softly to hit the low note correctly.
I thought at first that it didn't work at all, but I just needed to get used to playing softly enough for the subhole to make a difference.
I'm not defending the products themselves, mind you. I just ordered a Foca Double Ac and I can't wait to get my hands on it. :D
Goatmon 2 years ago
damn i want an ocarina! but broke,starving, and a student, :D my 6 hole broke :'( oh well enjoy your videos keep it up and i am sure you'll figure out the kink in this OC
cmbears17 2 years ago
actually i already sold it xD
kissing88 2 years ago
awesome,
cmbears17 2 years ago
Where are you located? If you're in the US there are a few options, if you can set aside close to $100 for an Alto-C.
Goatmon 2 years ago
That is the exact same WPN double that I use and I don't have a problem with that subhole at all, then again I have long fingers so for me it's hard to reach the subhole while playing it. Then again maybe I've just grown too used to it to tell the difference.
Gamoden 2 years ago
hence the controversy xD
kissing88 2 years ago
Just to clarify: the right sub-hole is for B (half a step lower) and the left sub-hole is for the A (a full step lower than the B) if you practice with the right sub-hole to get the B, then the left sub-hole will reach the A with very little difficulty
DaZoriel 2 years ago
The problem still stands though.
The Left subhole works far better at playing B than the Right subhole nevertheless.
kissing88 2 years ago
Agreed. My TNG Enigma from STL was just like that.
AdrianCloud5513 2 years ago
Very good!
hoosierhiver 2 years ago
That model sounds a lot better than mine, I'm sure the older model is better. (Airyness etc)
My WPN Double AC has the problem with the subholes and my Forte Triple does not!
So I agree with what you said.
ElvenSpellmaker 2 years ago
Either that or you just can't work the ocarina the way Sam can.
Funny, I imagine the same thing goes for your Forte.
Stop blaming your ocarinas.
Dhalphir 2 years ago
I probably can't but I'm not totally useless at it and that model has always sounded better than the newer one. Do you have either of the models? If so which one.
I'm thinking of getting the older one soon to compare the differences and see if it is just me. =)
About the Forte, you yourself said there was a difference in tone between the first and second chamber. I just came to the same conclusion about it that you did.
i.e. The tone doesn't actually sound like that to other people.
ElvenSpellmaker 2 years ago
I can no longer discern any difference in the second chamber...I've grown used to the ocarina.
Dhalphir 2 years ago
I have grown used to it too but sometimes the huge tone difference comes back. To me its a very moody Ocarina.
Either that or I'm totally rubbish which could be the case. =)
ElvenSpellmaker 2 years ago
The difference could be just the microphone (?)
kissing88 2 years ago
Thanks for sharing Sam!
I definitely agree with you about those sub-holes, and I'm not sure anyone can disagree, lest they are tone deaf...
ForestsRequiem 2 years ago
Nice video, was unsure of the exact reason to all this disagreement was but now it makes sense and I agree, I previously owned a stl ocarina and experienced the same inconvience, but simply thought it was my bad playing skills. lol
WyreWyng 2 years ago
NIce demonstration Sam!
I would also like to add that I experience the same problems with my STL Infinity (White model, bought end 2008). The sound is beautiful, but the right subhole doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
Menoname27 2 years ago
its probably worth noting that STL has recognised their subholes have an issue themselves by the simple fact that they have new designs soon to be released that do not suffer from this problem
Dhalphir 2 years ago
I've heard his too about the better models. You can also view on Teddy Tseng's store on ebay that the newer ocarinas he's putting up have a different look to them, and he subhole that Sam is discussing here seems to be larger
[sarcasm]looks like we can't STL bash anymore xD[/sarcasm]
it's good that the MAKERS are fixing their ocarinas. Maybe now TNGs and WPNs can have a good standing again in the Ocarina world
AdrianCloud5513 2 years ago
I hear that the TNG's have better subholes than the WPN's in general.
kissing88 2 years ago
Comment removed
ElvenSpellmaker 2 years ago
you can produce the sound, but its really not loud enough to be reasonable
Dhalphir 2 years ago
nicely demonstrated, kissing.
jeremyfrancis 2 years ago
I agree, I have so many problems with the Enigma's subholes it's not even funny.
ellichan 2 years ago
I can see what you're saying. O.o Never been able to hear it QUITE that clearly before. Definitely turns me off of STL/WPN ocarinas. If I'm going to spend that much on a double, I'm going to spend it on an ocarina that can reach every note without that much difficulty.
xXSweetxNightmareXx 2 years ago
Very nice demonstration!
MrFliptheswitch 2 years ago
It's good to see ya talk and be a little casual on screen kissing. :) The case with WPN is becoming all the more clearer. I wonder if anyone else plans on showcasing questionable subs...
subakuryu 2 years ago
Awesome Job!!! kissing!!
solidsarris135 2 years ago