TPMtv: Sunday Show Roundup: Deep Doo-Doo-Over

[msjoje]

Obama insists that rules are rules & Fl & Mi shouldn't count. But is that really a winning argument within the Party? About 2.3 mill Dems voted in those primaries.

Remember in 2000, Dems fervently argued that Fl election law was less important than making sure "EVERY VOTE COUNTED." The party then claimed that holding to the strict letter of the law was tantamount to disenfranchisement.If "voter intent" was more important than the law in 2000, shouldn't it also trump mere party rules in 2008?

[chunkylimey]

It'd simple. Hillary signed a pledge not to campaign in FL/MI. She said she would not count their vote. Now she wants to go against her pledge.

It's simple, it may be unfair on FL/MI but Hillary should be disqualified for violating her promise AND for going back on her word, thereby meaning that all FL/MI delegates are free to vote for whoever they choose. Obama or say for example Edwards. That would be the only reasonable fair response to Clinton's rule-breaking.

[vanjanvanjan]

candidates getting blame for messing things up ar at least one candidate

Iowa, N Hampshire, Nevada' S Carolina and others

moved theirs

THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE IS THE ONE THAT REALLY GOOFED

[rakrobn]

It's funny how many times it sounds like the guests are reading from the same script, especially near the end about the "logistics"

[BRANKO72]

hilary  is a fucking rasist pig

[move2montana]

This is the point,the elections are predetermined,and you morons,pysudeo intellectials keep arguing about democrats and rebublicans.AHHHHH,guess what,differant name,same agendas,what a bunch of asshats.

[haobio]

Orginal reporting? Maybe not, recycling and editing reporting? Maybe.

[microflex22]

Hillary accepted the rules laid out by the DNC and she followed them, She did not campaign in Florida, she just won without campaigning. Had the roles been reversed and Obama had won Florida he'd be singing a different tune....and to be fair I will concede that Hillary would be too. A revote is the only answer. I know the states don't want to have to pay for it, but they should, it was their state legislature that caused this mess.

[aaltman9]

with absolutely no punishment for breaking the rules? you don't just get a do-over after knowingly breaking the rules while cognizant of what repercussions would ensue. best solution: split the delegates 50:50 from michigan and florida and get past this crap.

[g699a]

The Democrats should just let the Super delegates decide the nominee. Democrats should be happy with this politburo style system as it fits right in with their Marxist leanings. After all, this sort of thing (representative systems) only becomes a problem when the Republicans win elections. Strangely ironic, yet not surprising, that the Democrats, always contesting elections based on the popular vote (in contrast to the US constitution mandate), should have the least democratic system of all.

[g699a]

Oh, and by the way, how's that "Nazi Bush conspiracy to take over the World" going? Sort of bearing out to be just another disinformation campaign by the Left to cause their teen minded "Liberal" lemming warriors to relinquish more of their personal freedom to their Leftist overlords, only now to be cast aside at the ballot box. Funny how history repeats itself through the acquiescence of each consecutive generation of dupes.

[g699a]

Feeling a little confused by all of this "back and forth" in the media? Navigating toward the truth isn't that difficult, at all. As the success of propaganda is dependent on an appeal to "key" elements of greed in the targeted audience, learning to perfume an objective examination of a "message" for its "greed appeal" will usually reveal its weakest elements of credibility. Example: Understanding this factor allows one, when offered a "free handout", to consider the hidden cost.

[stealth63]

You should know since you must be a big fan of Faux Noise(greed=Roger Ailes/Murdoch) and Rush Blowhard. Talk about unperfumed propaganda.

[g699a]

I did say objective. I can see, by your baseless analysis of my remarks, concluding an inferred alliance with the organization or individuals you mentioned, that you might find objectivity a bit of a challenge. What ever feeds your needs.

[UTBESUX]

g699a some days when you LEARN the FACTS behind you might, I say might feel like a jackass. You need to stop watching FOX news and find out what the REPUBLICAN role is all this is nunbnuts! God you right-wingers are fucking DUMB!

[Devin1498]

Hillary is better than Barack.

[fishbonebuba]

Why do they all say Obama wouldn't want a revote? He'd win Michigan and Florida would be a tie. The Clinton campaign just wants things to be submitted "as is", which is patently ridiculous.

[microflex22]

As a follow up, why do you think thatu Obama took his name off the ballot in MI and not FL. The answer is simple, his polling numbers were not competitive, so by taking his name off the ballot in MI it would not be perceived as a loss. If FL and MI votes were counted, Hillary would be ahead in both popular vote and delegates.

[gatsu6969]

NOBAMA BITCHES. btw obama only played by the rules that suited him. of course he didn't compete in Florida and Michigan, he knew he would lose. however, super delegates who are suppose to vote based on insight that other votes don't have, like actually working with the candidate, are being pressured to support obama because they are voting for Clinton 3 to 2. worse thing is that the black super delegates for Clinton are the most viciously attacked, like black on black racism.

[microflex22]

I understand that FL and MI were stripped of their delegates for moving their primaries to an earlier date. But you cannot ignore millions of voters voices. You must understand that it was a Republican FL legeslature that changed the primary date, not the Democrats. And if you want to play by the "rules", then don't complain to me about which way super delegates are likely to sway. Super delegates are part of the rules as well and are in place to decide close elections.

[PreetSG]

Florida changed it, fair enough. But MI? That was a blatant unfair maneuvering by Hillary. She went to MI, the next day went got endorsed by the Gov, and the Gov went "Guess what? Primary is in 24 hours time". Do not believe it, check it out in YouTube. Hillary got caught with her pants down and agreed to her punishment. She should be brave enough to face the consequences. As for Superdelegates wise, it would be dumb for them to discount a million more Dems voters (2 w/o Florida and MI)...

[PreetSG]

Florida changed it, fair enough. But MI? That was a blatant unfair maneuvering by Hillary. She went to MI, the next day went got endorsed by the Gov, and the Gov went "Guess what? Primary is in 24 hours time". Do not believe it, check it out in YouTube. Hillary got caught with her pants down and agreed to her punishment. She should be brave enough to face the consequences. As for Superdelegates wise, it would be dumb for them to discount a million more Dems voters (2 w/o Florida and MI)...

[TheWill2Power]

When has a Clinton EVER faced the consequences when caught with their pants down? Still looking.....

[Devin1498]

Its often cited that part of the reason Al Gore isn't president today is because of Bill Clinton's involvement with Monica Lewinsky. That's a pretty big consequence for the party and the nation.

[apollodionysus7]

Damn ! I am worried... we need to solve this fast. Howard Dean seems to be the man who could make the most difference, but he looks afraid.

I hope someone smart and charismatic and powerful will step forward and do what needs to be done!

[lordtiberius]

democrats are idiots! And you want to let them run the country? Ha!

Let me guess FL and MI is Bush's fault!

[aphexmandelbrot]

No, but the economy is.

[lordtiberius]

Ah news flash the democrats control the congress now.

What is the democratic plan for fixing the economy? Which is powered by cheap energy and cheap labor?

Paging Nancy Pelosi?

[JamJells]

Nasty edit on Dean. 1 star

[cousinNACHO]

if the democrats do a mail-in ballot, then i am sure the winner will be George W Bush.

[Sinistertino]

@ 8:12 Sen Nelson said he tried to avoid this trainwreck ... yes it is a trainwreck only because you and your state party pulled the wrong switch ... you tried to appear all important, guess what you are now for all the WRONG reasons

[vertigate]

HRC can't play fair. She has no strategy for a fair win. If Dean thinks she will accept defeat if only she thinks that she has been treated fairly, then he is deluding himself. She doesn't care for anyone but herself. A revote would most likely only exacerbate the mess the party is already in, even if they ended in a tie or - worse - a tightening of the delegate spread. Even in the case of an Obama win, HRC would still try to sue and superdelegate her way to the nomination.

[vertigate]

Also as far as I know, Hillary campaigned in FL against the rules, while the other candidates didn't. Just to clarify the notion that was mentioned that the FL primaries were more legit than Michigan. They weren't. Of course her results look better if she is the only one campaigning in the state and encouraging her voters to show up. So seating the delegates based on the results as they are now is not a fair option.

[codingkriggs]

Your compilations should be on network tv or something. They are very valuable, and expose the talking points all the sunday shows seem to agree on.

[apollodionysus7]

I know, right!? They have the phrases down pat.

[kryminalll]

CRY BABY Hillary..sore LOSER soon to be a SORRY ASS LOSER

[paultherolls]

The Democrats run the government like they run their own party. Can you say TOTALLY DISORGANIZED. These guys could fuck-up a grocery list. At one time our leaders actually had some leadership skills. Now we have a variety of negative skill sets. Politicians really don't care about the people they supposedly represent. If they had respect for themselves and others they would be effective. Quality of candidates continues to spiral down. People wouldn't know a person of integrity if they met one.

[CheeezMaster]

american politics is my favorite sitcom.

[leepakim]

muhahaha....!!! USA = banana republic.

[thetubeaccount]

Well done!

This is maddneeesss!

[CheeezMaster]

don't you try to set up a "this is sparta" ever again. it's been done alot and everybody's intelligence has suffered as a result of it.

[Bolgernow]

People of Florida & Michigan should feel disenfranchised, & take that anger out on their states party leaders. THEY disenfranchised the voters, & should be held accountable, no one else. DNC said if they moved up their primaries the states votes wouldn't count, & no delegates would be seated. The states leaders said, "Shove it, we're doing it anyway". They did. They lost the votes & delegates. Now, after agreeing to the DNC rules in writing, Hillary incorrectly wants those to count. INSANE...

[devikkyrn]

Exactly. I wish more people would understand that.

Really, there's no way we can seat MI or FL. The current delegation isn't fair, and an re-election wouldn't be fair either.

[Devin1498]

Florida was totally fair. Obama supporters are just afraid of Florida because they know their nazi totalitarian overlord can only win by spinning his verbal propaganda into people's heads directly.

[devikkyrn]

Florida was totally fair? When all the candidates agreed not to campaign there but Clinton said "fuck that, I don't have to stick to my agreements" and campaigned there anyways... yeah, that's a fair election. Just the kind we expect coming from Florida.

[WadeBlazingame34]

Is it just me, or is Howard Dean's head enormous in comparison to his shoulders (1:57)?

PS - Hillary, stop trying to change the rules just because you decided to ignore 3/4's of the country. Thanks.

[CheeezMaster]

the dude's a robot, wade. i thought you knew.

[WadeBlazingame34]

My mistake! Big headed robot...

"Yaaaaaaahhhh!!!!" -- Howard Dean

[sefrzan]

The race isn't even close, Obama has won 11 in a row and has also won Texas. No re-vote, Hillary needs to quit!

[majoha2020]

hillary is goin to stal the nomination from barrack obama damn!!!!! shes such a bitch

[SLAVEforLISA]

I think the only fair way to deal with this situation is to seat the delegates in a proportional manner that reflects the final delegate count of the candidates.

[rmsolom]

Will someone just give the mutha@#$% ball to Leroy ALREADY!?!

[bootpdx]

Hillary you lost! get it through your head!

[bootpdx]

You can't change the rules in midstream. If Hillary was winninf, she would be arguing against counting them. IF Florida and Michigan delegates dont count, then why is the magic number still 2024? Why not subtract the 366 delegates from the 2024 and have the magic number be 1658?

[thetubeaccount]

YOUR NOT THINKING LIKE A DEMOCRAT

[rg321123]

Unbelievable!! Joseph Stalin would be so proud of America today

[FeelFreeToArgue]

The essential problem is that a fixed order to the primaries is unfair. This is an unusual election cycle, it's usually all decided by now. But why Iowa and New Hampshire 1st? They're not particularly representative, yet they almost always winnow the field, restrict choices for the rest of us. The answer is simple, the order should rotate each election, eventually every state would go first. There would be no unseemly rush to be first if everyone knew they were going to get a turn.

[microflex22]

That's an interesting idea about rotating the states primaries dates. Another would be to hold a national primary, where everyone votes on the same day. I'm concerned if would don't get this resolved, FL and MI could possible turn from blue to red in November, unless Clinton secures the nomination, of course.

[PreetSG]

Look at the polls again. Obama would win FL and not Clinton against McCain. Both would win MI vs McCain. All but Clinton, Gravel and Kucinich took their names off.Kucinich and Gravel did not agree to not participate in the boycott, Hillary did.Why agree fist and now complain and wail about it when you need it? Obama would take at least 35% of the ballots and Clinton would have taken at max 55% for MI (Do not forget Edwards).FL Obama is expected to get 45%. Either way, Hillary loses popular vote.

[SCW01902]

Look, I know the voters of Michigan and Florida shouldn't be removed from the process because of their stupid state leaders. I just don't like how the Clintons will place this race in the hands of judges in courts and the hands of super-delegates. Makes you wonder just how much influence and power actual voters in this nation has...I wonder.

[rmsolom]

Rules are meant to be broken baby!!! :-)

[Virginian9000]

sad.

[stevenmirelague]

Theyre scapegoating Dean because the Democrats always sell their left-of-center members down the river.

This mess is the fault of Michigan and Florida for trying to squeeze themselves into more influential roles even when the DNC (including Clinton) told them not to, and these two states are holding the future presidential candidate hostage as a consequence. This is such bs.

[burrowowl]

Florida and Michigan knew what they were doing when they set their primary dates. The voters of those states should hold their state legislators accountable in November. This isn't the DNC's problem, it's Florida and Michigan's problem. Howard Dean has taken the correct position here: the states need to sort out their own business, the rules are the rules.

[iamjackscolin]

Howard Dean, if you wanted to hear the voices of MI and FL so much, then why the fuck did you strip their delegates in the first place. You stony faced imbecile.

[boots920]

Why follow these rules, if the gov. doesn't follow the rule of law (The Constitution) why follow any rules. You might get total chaos, but when the majority of Americans are catatonic cattle, why bother. There's no sense in following any laws or rules, if its just fluff.

[newsweekrocks]

I was expecting more from H. Dean. He seems to be really confused.

[ArmchairRevolution]

I think the DNC should foot the bill for a revote in both Fl. and Mi. so their votes count.

Also, to Rendell "Caucuases are undemocratic"; wtf?

[Zonkerino]

"Also, to Rendell "Caucuases are undemocratic"; wtf?"

I assume he elaborated on that thought, but it was edited out of the video. However, it DOES leave me wondering how he could justify saying that caucuses are "undemocratic".

[quiksilver723]

I think you can watch the video on MSNBC. He does elaborate further, and makes a decent point IMO.

[ArmchairRevolution]

I heard his explanation and it's basically stating some people may not be able to attend the short time in which caucuses are held compared to primaries.