Excavating The Empty Tomb (beyond a reasonable doubt) Part 9a

[drumrnva]

...maybe it was just one guy, and his name sounded like Jamesandjohn? :)

[TheRealTruthSurge]

@drumrnva :) 

[shrikechan]

Astarte, I'm working on a painting right now and she's in it, along with some other gods.

[shrikechan]

mind blown :D

[DarkEmergence]

You made me excited to read the Bible again, or at least the Gospels. I grew up in the church and loved Greek mythology, but I never made these connections. I'll have to close read other books and see what I can find.

[TruthSurge]

@DarkEmergence Thank ya! Exploring is fun. I love the idea of exploring things, places. You always hope to find something new or at least unseen for long periods of time. I prob would have loved to have been an archeologist digging in the dirt and finding stuff.

[COEXISTential]

I'd never encountered the Polydeuces name, I'd always known it as Pollux. Interesting.

[TruthSurge]

@COEXISTential yeah, seems the Romans cloned the greek gods and gave them their own forms of names. pollux is just the roman incarnation of polydeuces. thank ye

[perichoresis7]

Awesome. It is clearly undeniable that the "Sons of Thunder" was paralleling Greek mythology. The question then becomes: for what purpose? Here is an interesting thought: if this reference would've been picked up on by its first century hearers, how did they view this information? Why did they not see it as another branch of mythology but instead believe in it as truth and fact? Clearly, this belief took off during this time, a time in which persecution was rampant (Nero). So why is this?

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 "for what purpose? "

Let's ask a broader question, what was MARK'S purpose in copying the Odyssey in not only small details but the entire overarching plot?

Simple. He was writing a pwnage of the Jews, for one. He was writing a glorification of his beliefs, for two. Those both go hand in hand and what BETTER way to get his story read and spread than to copy the most famous and widely read story of HIS day - the Odyssey?

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 "if this reference would've been picked up on by its first century hearers, how did they view this information?"

I suspect most did NOT pick up on it outside of Greece and Rome, etc. But closer to home, they would have tried to do what we are. figure it out. Did it happen? was Jesus real but BETTER than Odysseus? Mark knew he was writing fiction but I'd claim MOST of the ultimate readers did not and history confirms this. over 2 billion people confirm it.

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 "a time in which persecution was rampant (Nero)"

What is your evidence that Nero persecuted any Christians? There is much more evidence that the JEWS were persecuting Christians than Nero. Paul himself confessing to this as well as Mark. Rome would have had no reason to do so. They were a tiny sect compared to the # of Jews in Rome.

[perichoresis7]

@TruthSurge Tacitus seems to say that Nero placed the blame for burning down part of Rome on Christians/Chrestians and they were persecuted as a result (nothing about Jews). The fire started in 64 and was immediately pinned on the Christians possibly because some of their ghettos were not touched by the fire (this is not to be confused by the Jewish-Roman Wars starting in 66). The Jews were originally protected by Roman law as a religion; the Christians were not.

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 The Tacitus account smells funny. And even if it's by Tacitus, it's 116 CE. Tacitus was like 10 at the time. And with such a huge event as that, you have to wonder why only Tacitus? And where do you read that the Christians' ghettos were untouched? This idea of Christians being martyred and such is a LATER development in Christian tradition. Tacitus can't even get the Christian founder's name right and yet you buy the rest?

[perichoresis7]

@TruthSurge Suetonius also writes of Nero persecuting Christians, but unconnected to the fire. But Christians were being persecuted on all sides. Nero was using their bodies to light his gardens (heard this; don't know the source) and Jews were openly persecuting them for in their eyes "defecting" and possibly hurting the Jewish relationship with Rome.

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 "Nero was using their bodies to light his gardens"

Maybe it was this part from Tacitus: "Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."

dude... this just didn't happen. It reeks of exaggeration and hearsay.

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 "defecting"? wha? Almost ALL the Christians were GENTILES to begin with.

[perichoresis7]

@TruthSurge Not ALL. For instance, most of the key players (Paul, Jesus, and other apostles and disciples, etc.) were Jews. Yes, the Gentiles received the gospel more readily but it was not exclusive.

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 Paul was a Jew, sure. But Jesus' very existence is in question and I believe strongly he did not even exist.

I'm saying that Christians in ROME would be mostly GENTILES. Christians in PALESTINE would be a mix perhaps.  right? Geography would play a role in that mix. WHen Mark has Jesus say "they'll flog you in the synagogues" it likely is referring to the Jewish synagogues IN ROME during MARK'S own day. Anachronistic projection backwards/forward. etc.

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 and we know from Paul himself that the Jews rejected the gospel almost wholesale. It's why he turned from them and began spreading this new idea to Gentiles. At least that's what he says. And with mark (our first gospel) likely written FROM Rome, I tend to believe it.

[perichoresis7]

@TruthSurge All true. But it is also important to see the overall Jewish perspective of the overall Christian group. Christians were in some ways alluding to the fact that they are a branch of Judaism (followers of a newer revelation of YHWH, if you will). But the Jews did not want to be associated with Christians because of how that could mess with their Roman protection as an accepted religion. So the Jews saw Christianity itself as a "defection". That's all I was trying to say.

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 I don't see how. If the Jews saw Christianity as false, then the Christians would have no part in Jewishness anyway from the Jewish perspective. Especially when most were not Jews anyway.

Maybe defecting is not a good word. Just because a few Jews did convert doesn't mean even a good % did. Apparently, MOST did not. Sure, Paul, because he was a Jew, is the one who makes the "branch" analogy. God "grafted" the Gentiles onto the tree.

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 So, it had nothing to do with Jews defecting, IMO, but GENTILES being allowed to partake in the new revelation that the Jewish god had a son and this son could grant one access into heaven.

Jews did not buy this son idea. A god that can die? two gods? No more animal sacrifice? The perfect law of god nullified? get outta here!

[perichoresis7]

@TruthSurge hahah Yes. I've been studying Hebrews and how it was written as an outline for a sermon to head off Christians from defecting because of heavy persecution. Maybe "defecting" was just a word in my head at the time. hahah

[TruthSurge]

@perichoresis7 anyway, thanks fer the "awesome" awesome! hehe yes, this info is rather mind-blowing if you haven't ever seen it.

[PoFFizdaMan]

i don't know why, but this video really touched me.. idk, maybe it was the music

[TruthSurge]

@PoFFizdaMan yes, the music is really good in 9a and 9b. I prob got kind of lucky but I'll take it. :) thanks!

[2eelShmeal]

Pink Sock

[TruthSurge]

@2eelShmeal sticky

[Katalyzt]

Interesting  ★★★★★

[TruthSurge]

@Katalyzt thanks

[SisterSunshineTV]

Mind blowing. Undeniable info here.

[gjsterp]

We forget that the Greek writers of the Gospels were trying to convert people with other beliefs to believe in this, what was at the time, new religion.

How else would one appeal to prospective converts but by giving them a new(er) story they were already familiar with. Much easier to accept an updated version of one's religion than a completely new idea.

Christianity is basically Greek Mythology 2.0.

[biggingeryeti]

Perhaps James and John were conjoined twins?

[biggingeryeti]

@biggingeryeti wrote that before you said it in the video :-/

[TruthSurge]

@biggingeryeti cmon man. hahahhahah i don't think they'd be much help to poor ole Zebedee in that case. DOH

[homeofbrokendreams]

The background music makes it sound like a creepy conspiracy story. I enjoyed it! Makes me think the bible was made to be a best-seller fiction book at their time, but people got carried away saying that it's a true story.

[TruthSurge]

@homeofbrokendreams thanks. I think you aren't far off ref Mark and Matthew and Luke. They clearly were trying to outdo their predecessors. Compare Mark to Matthew and you see clear and deliberate "improvements" and edits. same with Matthew to Luke.

[homeofbrokendreams]

@TruthSurge You're right, I haven't looked at those three gospels in entirety. Now I got your point. Thanks.

[emancoy]

if we still have the old 5 star rating system, this is a full 5 star

[TruthSurge]

@emancoy thanks!

[edgwaterprog]

@TruthSurgeThe last portion of this segment reminded me of end of the Gospel of John. During the last scene, on the lake shore, Peter and the risen Jesus discuss John's immortality. It is interesting since the exchange discusses whether or not John is immortal.

[TruthSurge]

@edgwaterprog yeah, that's what I touch on at the end where I mention that tradition had John being immortal in some circles and James being martyred. Whether the dioscuri actually fed into that.... not sure but it IS rather interesting.

[2eelShmeal]

@TeesByTruthSurge lol..... (Butthead laugh) (Laid back) "He said Batch...." Uh huh huh..... UHuhuhuhuhu uhuuhuhuhuh"

"Yeah YEAH!! I am the GREAT Cornholio!! I need TP for my bunghole!!! (Beavis) FIRE FIRE

[2eelShmeal]

(Pauses) (Gets Popcorn)(shuts light off) Ok I'm ready for the second coming.... Just don't get it in my popcorn.... Ewwwww

[TruthSurge]

@2eelShmeal i thought you awedy watched this mon.

[2eelShmeal]

@TruthSurge I like to let 2 or 3 pile up then I gets up in dere... nomsayin

[55metalmonkey]

once again TS, thumbs up

[TruthSurge]

@55metalmonkey thanks

[rgtrab]

In spanish, people still calls God "Dios"

They don't know "Dios" is the genitive of Zeus, they are indeed worshipping ZEUS !! I joke my christian friends with this =)

[AussieNaturalist]

Yet another wonderful vid TS, I'm looking fwd to the next 2 vids.

[TruthSurge]

@AussieNaturalist thanks

[TruthSurge]

@emptyquarter1 thanks

[TruthSurge]

@emptyquarter1 thanks

[MercuryRis]

You make some great points, By the way, Jesus seats on the right hand of the father so this is interesting. I really think Yahweh is a form of Zeus/Jupiter and Dionysius is the Son. Fantastic video. Do you think Christianity is just Greek mythology in disguise and Christians are worshipping Zeus without even knowing it?

[TruthSurge]

@MercuryRis thanks. No, it's way more involved than that. There are all kinds of similarities and input to "Christianity". gnostics, docetics, Pauline beliefs, orthodox, jewish, greek, Egyptian, etc. it was one evolving melting pot with lots of competing "gospels". so, it wasn't a copy of any one thing.

[MercuryRis]

@TruthSurge Wasnt that reason for its success? I ripped off aspects of all the competing religions, then went to the ones in charge with a recycled form of "messiah worship" or "chief god" worship. I say that because Jehovah and Jove (Jupiter/Zeus) are so similar and Jupiter was the head roman god, as Ammon was in Egypt.

[TruthSurge]

@MercuryRis So many inputs I can't say for sure that there was one reason or two but the orthodox story (a STORY as opposed to just Paul's version of a handful of facts) was easily going to win out because it was a STORY. Jesus on earth. hands down would win. and once Constantine made it illegal to persecute them, it flipped and Christianity began to take over. But yeah, I wish we had more writings that were hidden then crop up like the DDS and Nag Hammadi. More puzzle pieces.

[TruthSurge]

@MercuryRis but my opinion is that there were many strands/flavors of Christianity until the 4th century when orthodoxy began to successfully take root and deliberately stamp out those "heretical" groups. poor heretics. they were actually following their true beliefs and it was the orthodox fathers who were so jealous that their "authority" would dissolve should gnosticism flourish, etc. they made damn sure it didn't but some kind soul hid a bunch of writings for us. :)

[cali4niaSon]

You've really outdone yourself TS, this is incredible, well thought out and presented. This whole series has been remarkable and easy to follow.

Thank you for all your time and effort in preparing these.

[TruthSurge]

@cali4niaSon thank ya!

[robertwlester]

recycled mythology 

[TruthSurge]

@robertwlester in part, yes.

[robertwlester]

yeshua was bat shit crazy, thats my theory

[TruthSurge]

@robertwlester :) sounds like a short vid series. HEHEHHE

[ONESPECIES]

Boom!!!! I am sitting on the edge of my seat!

[jdh501]

Maybe James and John really WERE siamese twins. In that case, they were inviting Jesus to sit on their lap! :D

okay, bad joke, sorry. Seriously, the evidence is overwhelming at this point that Mark copped his story from Homer. Great video.

[TruthSurge]

@jdh501 da doomp TSHHHHH! hahhaha thank ya! even if they WERE twins, it's clear by the "sons of thunder" that mark was not giving us history. Jesus calling them sons of Zeus? cmon man.

[jdh501]

@TruthSurge They WERE Siamese twins and Jesus called them Boner-erges, cuz when he sat on their lap. . .

oh never mind. :P

[destronia123]

You've clearly exposed the gospels as works of fiction, but the Christians will never accept it.

[TruthSurge]

@destronia123 well, most of them will deny it all. a VERY few MIGHT accept the parallels but cast it as just a FORM Mark used. of course that ignores the details coming from the stories but yeah, most will prob never make it to this vid anyway. :(

[jolulipa]

Dios! I was beting my money on some similarly between Laertes and Jesus father. I re-read the damned thing looking for it. I was way off. (although the role of Mary the EMO mother, is much alike the role of Penelope). Allow me now, to thank you, as you have made, an atheist Classic's reader, a very happy man.

[TruthSurge]

@jolulipa thanks a lot! I enjoyed doing these.

[Wrath0fKhan]

Two flankers... Fascinating...

[TruthSurge]

@Wrath0fKhan better than two wankers. HEHE doh!

[Wrath0fKhan]

@TruthSurge

Now Im confused... Maybe I meant wankers instead of flankers. Maybe they were one or the other. Maybe they were both. In any case, you got me. ;-)

[xdassinx]

Wasn't feeling it for a while there. (which was probably the plan) I was thinking that it would be natural for family photos that included twins to have a twin on each side of the relative.

But, then you nailed it with a literal clap of thunder! Nicely done sir.

[TruthSurge]

@xdassinx yep, that's the thing. w/o the "sons of thunder" part, we'd have a much weaker parallel because people could just claim the names were out of convenience and the left/right was a common idea ref deities to have someone at their right hand etc. but thankfully, Mark gave us an explicit clue as to what he was doing. thank ya!

[BobbieJamesTuOl]

Well, you convinced me!

[TruthSurge]

@emptyquarter1 See part9b at the end for the answer. :) the main source anyway.

[thefusilier1000]

Amazing.

[TruthSurge]

@thefusilier1000 thank ye

[TempleOfInanna2]

No wonder the Jews see Jesus as a blasphemous incarnation of pagan religions. This is a very compelling series for sure. On another note, why aren't you a partner yet Truth? You certainly have the subs for it.

[TruthSurge]

@TempleOfInanna2 because it's bullshit. I will never allow ads (if I can help it) on my vids just to try and make $5/mo. while YT is raking in probably hundreds or thousands from those same ads. I HATE ads at the start of vids. The ones you can't avoid or skip. I know, they have some skippable and just windowed but still... not gonna do it unless I'm starving.

[TempleOfInanna2]

@TruthSurge Yeah, ads are annoying, especially the ones that ya can't skip. Might as well be watching television. I suppose it would be worth it if you had upwards say 20k plus subs, then you might make a good chunk of change every month. I looked into highest piad YTers once, and the guys at the top were making 100k a year plus. That's fucking insane.

[TruthSurge]

@TempleOfInanna2 yeah, and all for doing shit vids about current events and just talking into a camera and they put deceptive thumbnails (i suppose YT allows ANY thumb for hi subs) so people will click it. For a short while, YT didn't display the username so you couldn't go "oh, that's sxephil's vid I won't click that" hahah unbelievable how the world has turned into a feeding frenzy lottery casino mindset.

[SEThatered]

Bible writers should be glad that copyright was invented only 17th century,

or they'd be ear deep in the shitstorm of copyright infringement and lawsuits...

[TruthSurge]

@SEThatered :)

[edgwaterprog]

@SEThatered Probably not in the case of the writer of Mark, Homer had been dead for several hundred years and the Odessey would have been long passed its copyright.

[markdzima]

Very enlightening! I had been aware of the James-and-John/Boanerges/Diosc­uri connection for a very long time (having found it in "Hamlet's Mill" (1977) by de Santillana and von Deschend, who apparently found it in "Boanerges" (1913) by Rendel Harris). But dS and vD did not connect the flanking-the-diety aspect of the story that you showed here so excellently, so the whole point of the mythological reference was not apparent. I'm delighted that you've finally cleared that up for me! Thanks!

[TruthSurge]

@markdzima Thanks but of course it's not my original research. I'm sort of presenting in my way some parallels/info from a great book I plug at the end of part 9b. But I did not know of the books you reference. I wonder if MacDonald used them or knew them.

[markdzima]

@TruthSurge  I have MacDonald's book checked out from the library (because of your series), so I checked on that for you: MacDonald has Rendel Harris's "Boanerges" listed in his bibliography. He doesn't mention "Hamlet's Mill".

[TruthSurge]

@markdzima oh, I have the book but just didn't look to see if he listed those. thanks. Makes you wonder if Matthew KNEW what it meant and that's WHY he and Luke deleted the reference in their copies of mark.

[markdzima]

@TruthSurge I seem to recall Bart Ehrman claiming that it was only the gospel of John that presented Jesus as being God. This use of the Boanerges brothers in the gospel of Mark seems to be inconsistent with that claim, no? Wouldn't the symbolism of James and John to either side of Jesus be meant to signify to the reader (or hearer of the story) that Jesus was a god (as we see that symbolism used elsewhere)? Or is there another possible meaning?

[TruthSurge]

@markdzima It seems that way, doesn't it? My take on Ehrman is that he is awesome but simply doesn't know everything. It is likely he has not considered the dioskouroi issue and that is all. ? I think that the gospel of John might be the only gospel that comes close to explicitly saying that Jesus = god. logos was with god and the logos was god and the logos was made flesh and dwelt among us. ? Still indirect but fairly obvious. like a = b b = c so therefore a = c. :)

[bonnie43uk]

Am i right in saying the people who wrote the 4 gospels ,(Matthew Mark Luke & John) are not part of Jesus's original 12 disciples?. I get easily confused.

[DeletedDelusion]

@bonnie43uk As far as I konw, the gosples were written anonymously, the names were attributed later. The biblical scholar Bart Ehrman has written about this issue in several of his books.

[TruthSurge]

@bonnie43uk well, no one knows for sure who wrote them so I'd say, sure. haha But my belief is that of course, there were NO disciples for there was NO Jesus. There were only apostles, messengers such as Paul. The gospels are written by gentile Christians (except maybe John) and no way were they eye witnesses of ANYTHING. my take. :)

[rich2rock]

All I can say is wow. Why wasn't stuff like this ever thought of before? It is a very clear similarity. Almost too obvious at this point.

[TruthSurge]

@rich2rock One viewer here noted a couple books in the 20th century that DID notice the link but in general, yeah. It has been pretty much hidden but again, remember that long dark age from the beginning of CHristianity to say 1500. No one HAD a bible to study it except those with extreme biases toward believing it.

[rich2rock]

@TruthSurge Hey, by the way I liked seeing all the paintings you had on the other vids, but I can't afford to buy anything these days. I saw a couple I really like too. "They were cute at first" is one of them. And I think the other one was deep blue or something? Wish I could afford to buy one. Good luck selling them though. I hope they all sell fast for you. This series is one of the best you've done yet. I do recommend them to some people, I hope they've check 'em out.

[TruthSurge]

@rich2rock no prob. I totally understand as I'm broke as PHOCK. hahahha But $ isn't everything but you gotta have SOME to live on. thanks a lot!

[viridismonasteriense]

awesome

[TruthSurge]

@viridismonasteriense thanks

[SuperZuescannon]

Ancient Greeks > Christians

On a scale of cool-ness.

[Brascofarian]

anyone else noticed that God's grammar is really bad?

[TruthSurge]

@Brascofarian Well, I take the blame. :) I get lazy and just grab verses from the good ole King James version. That's what I get for going to fast! :)

[JabberCT]

@Brascofarian He spakes ok its just thou which hasith troubles understanding the wordiths that cometh upon your eyes. :)~

[rozeboosje]

And I'm answering my own question in the affirmative as I reach the 8 minute mark XD

[TruthSurge]

@rozeboosje :)

[rozeboosje]

I trust they are the same guys who are also known as Castor and Pollux?

[rozeboosje]

ZOMG They're Jedward

[virumoz]

Lots of flanking goin’ on, and I wouldn't mind flanking one of those goddesses myself, but this will continue to be one of those fantasies. However, the thought of Mark »borrowing« plot and character ideas from Hellenic myths doesn't seem that fantastic anymore to me. Great work, TruthSurge!

[TruthSurge]

@virumoz yes, whole lotta flankin goin on. that was a jerry lee lewis song I think. Yes, I just got carried away. HEHEHHEHE

Of course, NOW that I've studied it some, it seems perfectly natural and right. "Mark" was raised on the stuff. If he was going to write a story, why not borrow from the greats? In fact, that's how they rolled back then.

[johndivy]

Homer's Oddity!

[TruthSurge]

@johndivy i know. The ODYSSEY explains the ODDITY. hehe

[TheD0ded0de]

Seems that the greek myths were more prevelant in asia minor and the near east than I thought. If the author of Mark was writing christian midrash, it would seem natural that he would incorporate the twins flanking a god into his texts. It would also seem to me that early christianity wasn't borrowing pagan beliefs as much as it was in and of itself - a pagan religion.

[TruthSurge]

@TheD0ded0de well, I think saying "Christianity" is itself a misnomer as there was no Christianity because it was constantly changing, morphing, evolving from "day 1" which is also a misnomer. There was no "start" of Christianity. So it's odd to consider but true, I think. Gnostic Christians, orthodox, docetics, and on and on and so each was borrowing from another and fighting for supremacy. Just been reading elaine pagel's gnostic gospels book. very interesting.

[ozmoroid]

Very powerful. But I'm sure it's all just coincidence. Or Satan influenced the Greeks to make up myths that would mirror what would later really happen to Jesus so as to undermine God's plan and lead you to Hell.

[TruthSurge]

@ozmoroid shhhhhhhhhhh I'm trying to trick everyone into thinking the opposite so please, stop broadcasting the truth, will ya?

[8WholeThing]

Cool beans, Dude. Paul refers to J,J & P as the "pillars" so they were the big dawgs in Jerusalem. Mark written after the destruction depicts them as fools. Ending at 16:8, they never met him in Galilee. The foreshadowing of cursing the fig tree, the temple tantrum, and the withered fig tree is followed by the destruction.

[TruthSurge]

@8WholeThing Yes, that there was a J,J and P in Jerusalem I have no doubt. But that they were disciples (direct) of Jesus, I do not at all believe. They were, like Paul, apostles. There was no earthly jesus to disciple anyone. The later orthodox view has them as direct disciples and interestingly, NONE of the other disciples save for Judas has ANY role in the gospel (ie, they're just fictional). So, it seems pretty much 99% of Mark is fiction. Okay, maybe 98%. :)

[Jaybird196]

Okay, that whole "sons of Jupiter" thing Justin Martyr mentioned is making a lot more sense now.

[TruthSurge]

@Jaybird196 yeah, Jupiter being the Roman equiv of Zeus you could say he was referencing the dioskouroi there.

[XheraPhine]

Ohohohoh! NEW EPISODE! You just made my day!

*Hurring up to make coffee and get chocolate cookies*

[TruthSurge]

@XheraPhine hehehehe

[MardasMan]

I'm looking forward to part 10.

[TruthSurge]

@MardasMan thank ya

[hevyAccel]

Going to take me days to go over these videos to get what I want out of them. You go into so much info that I end up pausing to look up one part of what you said; which makes me look up something about what I read there - and so on. I'm only 6 min in and I have 6 paper books open and wikipedia.

I am interested in the story idea, otherwise I would have watched this video in its 14:59. And there are more to get to!

Wish I had profs like you back in college (Although I was doing mathematics, so)

[TruthSurge]

@hevyAccel man, if you're having trouble with my tempo, I KNOW you aren't subbed to aronra. HAHAHAHAHHAHA man, he rattles off entire encyclopedias in 15 min with picture changes every 2 seconds. :)

Just have fun. It's fun for me to dig around in this stuff because I'm now free to do so w/o thinking I'm betraying the creator of the universe. Good luck with it and thanks a lot!!!

[calmreason]

The crosses rf J&J - I remember that from school. Another winner :-)

[TruthSurge]

@calmreason thank ya