Thelema has nothing to do with Gnosticism, you are correct. The ecclesiastical branch of the O.T.O. is called the Gnostic Catholic Church for another reason, however. The word "Gnostic" means Knowledge. And Thelema has nothing to do with Satanism. Please educate yourself before making an ass out of yourself.
Gnostic Christians believe in listening to Jesus/Yeshua/Logos within but that is not the same as "Do as thou wilt"... Crowley was Satanic, not Gnostic. This has nothing to do with Gnostic Christianity. We are not ritualistic and certainly do not have sexual rituals. This is occult.
@astrofrk Actually, the ancient Gnostics were much like Thelemites in many respects. Even the one's that identified as Christians. There's nothing inherently wrong with occultism and I even find it beneficial to my practice of Gnosticism. "Do as thou willt" doesn't mean "do whatever you want", it means "Fullfill your ultimate purpose". I'm not a Thelemite by any measure but I wouldn't characterize it as Satanic.
@SonofSethoitae I know of more than a dozen ancient Gnostic sects and I am a Western Valentinian myself. This has about as much in common with Valentinus as it has with a Southern Baptist Revival. Call Aleister Crowley what you want but he was not a Gnostic Christian. I am not judging occultism but I do not need to practice it to be a Gnostic Christian either.
@astrofrk No, you're absolutely right in saying that. But Crowley's work seems very similar to the syncretism of the Sethians. There are many similarities that I i can see between the two. They're not exactly the same, true, but to say it has nothing in common with Gnosticism is not entirely accurate. No, he was not a Gnostic Christian, but Gnosticism isn't Christian. Parts of it are, but it isn't a Christian phenomenon.
@SonofSethoitae I have to disagree. I believe that the Logos entered Yeshua at baptism. Yeshua was only a man but the Logos within is the son of God. The Logos is within all with Gnosis. John1:1 calls him "The Word" and he existed at the creation. This belief is found in The Gospels of Luke and Thomas. I do not recognise all the scritures in the cannon and accept some not in the cannon in my bible. The Sethians have some good things but I do not belive in Seth.
@astrofrk All are entitled to their beliefs. I'm simply pointing out that YOUR Gnosticism is not ALL Gnosticism. Some are quite like Crowley. Some are not. The Sethians are still as Gnostic as the Valentinians. I, if it's not obvious, am a Sethian. I love Jesus to death, I just see him as a new incarnation of Seth/Logos. I don't see Jesus as unique, nor do I think belief in him is necessary to salvation. Like I said, Gnosticism is not exclusively Christian, nor does it rely on Christianity.
@SonofSethoitae I agree with you on most of what you say. I am somewhat ignorant on Sethians and you have already told me something I didn't know. If you seek Gnosis through Love, you are my brother. The Gnosis I practice is as close to Buddhism as it is to Christianity. I have been listening to Steven Saddler doing Enlightenedchrist on YT and he claims to be Sethian, so I do try to keep an open mind. Much of what he says makes sence so we agree on much. (Continued)
@astrofrk Absolutely Brother, Peace, Love, and Light on the path of Gnosis to you. I've never heard of Steven Saddler, but I think I'll look into him. And if I came off as confrontational I apologize. I guess I need to open my mind a little more too.
@SonofSethoitae Pt#2: The Valentinians often attended church until they were labled heritics, they considdered themselves not only Christian but followers of the origional teachings of Yeshua as taught by Paul and Valentinus. I learned Gnosis via Dr. Jay Forrest, who was once a Christian minister. His identity became so close to Buddhism that Jay later became a Buddhist. While I see myself as Christian, that word has been
horribly misrepresented by religious institutions.
@astrofrk This I know, but thanks. It was more your "Crowley was Satanic" comment that irked me, because it's patently untrue. And Crowley never claimed the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica was Gnostic Christian. He used "Catholic" in the original Greek meaning; "universal".
@SonofSethoitae OK, I admit that I might be wrong on Crowley but calling oneself "The Beast" kind of invites assumtions. I know he never meant Roman or Eastern Catholic.
Whoa, I was looking at videos on gnosticism and I ended up here. What the fuck is a "Sex Magick Group"? I guess this is what they call "the weird part of Youtube?"
Yeah Freemasonry isn't genetic. Also at first glance at this link I thought I was going to reject the idea but it looks good. I thought it was going to be all black and red light and dramatic: you know the cleche` occult "satanism" hype. In fact I have seen actual satanism not look that bad. This is good though, thanks for making it and trying to get it out there. There is no bond that can unite the divided but Love.
@Majic490 The woman eventually does, but there's no sex involved in this ritual. The OTO is a sex magic group, however, and its members will proudly tell you that.
@richcapo It's not a "sex magick group." It is a fraternal organization with an initiatory system, though it is rumored that one of the secrets of the degrees is a sex magick secret. But it's not a big deal, sex is symbolic of the creation of the universe. It is an important aspect of ALL religion.
@spilledinsanity No, it's a sex magic group. I've spent time with the local DC-area head of the organization and he's explained it to me. From the lowest levels to the highest, it's all about mystical sex in one way or another.
Also yeah that is true. Mystical sex is like love under will, where one is constantly in union with the universe. But to call it a sex magick group is kind of misleading, and reminds people of sex cults, or at best makes us look like a bunch of pervs. You should also keep in mind that one person's opinion on the order isn't necessarily true.
@spilledinsanity Not adding the 'k', sorry. And however you want to gussy it up or dismiss it as merely being "one person's opinion," the OTO is still a sex magic group. Nothing more or wrong about that. Nothing else for me to say, especially not to someone who thinks that the sex rituals of the order are merely "rumored."
@richcapo I'm saying it is rumored because I don't know for sure because I am not a 9th degree. I don't see why youre arguing over a nuance, it doesn't matter to me, just that there is more to the OTO then sex magick. And it is spelled with a k, it is spelled that way by Crowley and every other notable occultist. I'm beginning to think you don't know anything about magick or Thelema anyways. Just don't bother, this argument is pointless. I don't care if you think OTO is a sex magick group.
@spilledinsanity Go to a gnostic mass and see for yourself. They're open to the public. And from the Scarlet Woman's opening masturbation of a spear to the eating of the Cakes of Light made from her menses and lover's semen, sex is its focus. If you don't believe me, see for yourself.
I went to a gnostic mass. Those performing it were all very kind, loving people -- which you'd expect from a group that upholds that "love is the law" -- but it wasn't for me. As a Mason, I found the use of our symbols, signs, and sayings irreverent, and as a married heterosexual, I was revolted by the thought of eating wafers made of menstrual blood and sperm. The Christian basis of the mass, i.e., the invocation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, also turned me off. Each to his own.
I think we all worship the same God...he has many names and is understood in different ways, but no matter what different religions call it, they all refer to the same God. So it's not important how you worship or what you call your worship, but the fact that you do worship. True prayer has no words or thoughts involved. You don't ask for things and tell God what you want. You let all thought go and consciously relate to God through this eternal moment.
@IChIDH Amen, IChIDH 1. That is exactly how I see it. Blessings are not bestowed by God through prayer, but harnessed though meditation and love -- which even the atheist can do, in my opinon.
With your beliefs, I bet you would make a fine Mason.
@richcapo Yes I agree, anyone can harness the prayer, meditation, or love, whatever you want to call it, even atheists, because we are all human...if it's practiced enough. Funny you mention Mason's...I've been interested in them since my teen years, but I don't exactly come from a Mason-type family if you know what I mean. Are you one?
I'd love to see a Gnostic Mass with a large number of people in attendance -- that would be cool. Also to have "children" that were twins and shorter than the Priest and Priestess. I hope the documentary covers how this is also a magick ritual, and has the Priest and Priestess talk about charging the elements.
The Gnostic Mass is a very beautiful ritual that I enjoy a great deal. If I could do anything to make if a more fun ritual, I would. Some think it is a bit dry and boring, and I can see their point of view, though I see beauty first. Therefore, I see a need for a second version that does what the first does, but with more fun. It's for the Sun, therefore, there should be much Fun.
This has nothing to do with gnosticism and is just plain wicked and corrupted, as all Crowley's philosophy and life.
SlavicFront88 3 days ago
Whatever floats yer boat.
02Blackbeard 2 weeks ago
FUCKING STUPID
pandirasbox 1 month ago
Thelema has nothing to do with Gnosticism, you are correct. The ecclesiastical branch of the O.T.O. is called the Gnostic Catholic Church for another reason, however. The word "Gnostic" means Knowledge. And Thelema has nothing to do with Satanism. Please educate yourself before making an ass out of yourself.
ShaneInTheMembrane 2 months ago
Gnostic Christians believe in listening to Jesus/Yeshua/Logos within but that is not the same as "Do as thou wilt"... Crowley was Satanic, not Gnostic. This has nothing to do with Gnostic Christianity. We are not ritualistic and certainly do not have sexual rituals. This is occult.
astrofrk 3 months ago
@astrofrk Actually, the ancient Gnostics were much like Thelemites in many respects. Even the one's that identified as Christians. There's nothing inherently wrong with occultism and I even find it beneficial to my practice of Gnosticism. "Do as thou willt" doesn't mean "do whatever you want", it means "Fullfill your ultimate purpose". I'm not a Thelemite by any measure but I wouldn't characterize it as Satanic.
SonofSethoitae 1 month ago
@SonofSethoitae I know of more than a dozen ancient Gnostic sects and I am a Western Valentinian myself. This has about as much in common with Valentinus as it has with a Southern Baptist Revival. Call Aleister Crowley what you want but he was not a Gnostic Christian. I am not judging occultism but I do not need to practice it to be a Gnostic Christian either.
astrofrk 1 month ago
@astrofrk No, you're absolutely right in saying that. But Crowley's work seems very similar to the syncretism of the Sethians. There are many similarities that I i can see between the two. They're not exactly the same, true, but to say it has nothing in common with Gnosticism is not entirely accurate. No, he was not a Gnostic Christian, but Gnosticism isn't Christian. Parts of it are, but it isn't a Christian phenomenon.
SonofSethoitae 1 month ago
@SonofSethoitae I have to disagree. I believe that the Logos entered Yeshua at baptism. Yeshua was only a man but the Logos within is the son of God. The Logos is within all with Gnosis. John1:1 calls him "The Word" and he existed at the creation. This belief is found in The Gospels of Luke and Thomas. I do not recognise all the scritures in the cannon and accept some not in the cannon in my bible. The Sethians have some good things but I do not belive in Seth.
astrofrk 1 month ago
@astrofrk All are entitled to their beliefs. I'm simply pointing out that YOUR Gnosticism is not ALL Gnosticism. Some are quite like Crowley. Some are not. The Sethians are still as Gnostic as the Valentinians. I, if it's not obvious, am a Sethian. I love Jesus to death, I just see him as a new incarnation of Seth/Logos. I don't see Jesus as unique, nor do I think belief in him is necessary to salvation. Like I said, Gnosticism is not exclusively Christian, nor does it rely on Christianity.
SonofSethoitae 1 month ago
@SonofSethoitae I agree with you on most of what you say. I am somewhat ignorant on Sethians and you have already told me something I didn't know. If you seek Gnosis through Love, you are my brother. The Gnosis I practice is as close to Buddhism as it is to Christianity. I have been listening to Steven Saddler doing Enlightenedchrist on YT and he claims to be Sethian, so I do try to keep an open mind. Much of what he says makes sence so we agree on much. (Continued)
astrofrk 1 month ago
@astrofrk Absolutely Brother, Peace, Love, and Light on the path of Gnosis to you. I've never heard of Steven Saddler, but I think I'll look into him. And if I came off as confrontational I apologize. I guess I need to open my mind a little more too.
SonofSethoitae 1 month ago
@SonofSethoitae Pt#2: The Valentinians often attended church until they were labled heritics, they considdered themselves not only Christian but followers of the origional teachings of Yeshua as taught by Paul and Valentinus. I learned Gnosis via Dr. Jay Forrest, who was once a Christian minister. His identity became so close to Buddhism that Jay later became a Buddhist. While I see myself as Christian, that word has been
horribly misrepresented by religious institutions.
astrofrk 1 month ago
@astrofrk This I know, but thanks. It was more your "Crowley was Satanic" comment that irked me, because it's patently untrue. And Crowley never claimed the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica was Gnostic Christian. He used "Catholic" in the original Greek meaning; "universal".
SonofSethoitae 1 month ago
@SonofSethoitae OK, I admit that I might be wrong on Crowley but calling oneself "The Beast" kind of invites assumtions. I know he never meant Roman or Eastern Catholic.
astrofrk 1 month ago
@astrofrk Indeed, though I think that was the intention on his part :P
SonofSethoitae 1 month ago
@SonofSethoitae I did non say it had nothing in common with Gnosticism, I said it had nothing in common with Valentinian Gnosticism.
astrofrk 1 month ago
Whoa, I was looking at videos on gnosticism and I ended up here. What the fuck is a "Sex Magick Group"? I guess this is what they call "the weird part of Youtube?"
eirefrance 3 months ago
Yeah Freemasonry isn't genetic. Also at first glance at this link I thought I was going to reject the idea but it looks good. I thought it was going to be all black and red light and dramatic: you know the cleche` occult "satanism" hype. In fact I have seen actual satanism not look that bad. This is good though, thanks for making it and trying to get it out there. There is no bond that can unite the divided but Love.
trumpicannabis 6 months ago
Nothing wrong with this vid-I like the Temple and their set up.It would be good to actually hear them also I think.
93/93-93
mike666nz 7 months ago
This reminds me of a bad porno film....I'm expecting them to start taking off their clothes and go for it.....
Majic490 7 months ago
Comment removed
richcapo 6 months ago
@Majic490 The woman eventually does, but there's no sex involved in this ritual. The OTO is a sex magic group, however, and its members will proudly tell you that.
richcapo 6 months ago
@richcapo magick*
DEADGLOW 5 months ago
@richcapo It's not a "sex magick group." It is a fraternal organization with an initiatory system, though it is rumored that one of the secrets of the degrees is a sex magick secret. But it's not a big deal, sex is symbolic of the creation of the universe. It is an important aspect of ALL religion.
spilledinsanity 3 months ago
@spilledinsanity No, it's a sex magic group. I've spent time with the local DC-area head of the organization and he's explained it to me. From the lowest levels to the highest, it's all about mystical sex in one way or another.
richcapo 3 months ago
@richcapo *magick
Also yeah that is true. Mystical sex is like love under will, where one is constantly in union with the universe. But to call it a sex magick group is kind of misleading, and reminds people of sex cults, or at best makes us look like a bunch of pervs. You should also keep in mind that one person's opinion on the order isn't necessarily true.
spilledinsanity 3 months ago
@spilledinsanity Not adding the 'k', sorry. And however you want to gussy it up or dismiss it as merely being "one person's opinion," the OTO is still a sex magic group. Nothing more or wrong about that. Nothing else for me to say, especially not to someone who thinks that the sex rituals of the order are merely "rumored."
richcapo 3 months ago
@richcapo I'm saying it is rumored because I don't know for sure because I am not a 9th degree. I don't see why youre arguing over a nuance, it doesn't matter to me, just that there is more to the OTO then sex magick. And it is spelled with a k, it is spelled that way by Crowley and every other notable occultist. I'm beginning to think you don't know anything about magick or Thelema anyways. Just don't bother, this argument is pointless. I don't care if you think OTO is a sex magick group.
spilledinsanity 3 months ago
@spilledinsanity So mote it be.
richcapo 3 months ago
@spilledinsanity Go to a gnostic mass and see for yourself. They're open to the public. And from the Scarlet Woman's opening masturbation of a spear to the eating of the Cakes of Light made from her menses and lover's semen, sex is its focus. If you don't believe me, see for yourself.
richcapo 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@spilledinsanity "It is a fraternal organization"
Wrong. A "fraternal organization" is a men's only club, which the OTO obviously is not. Read a book.
richcapo 3 months ago
No need to come from a Masonic family to be a Mason. I didn't. And to answer your question: I've been a Mason for thirteen years.
richcapo 9 months ago
I went to a gnostic mass. Those performing it were all very kind, loving people -- which you'd expect from a group that upholds that "love is the law" -- but it wasn't for me. As a Mason, I found the use of our symbols, signs, and sayings irreverent, and as a married heterosexual, I was revolted by the thought of eating wafers made of menstrual blood and sperm. The Christian basis of the mass, i.e., the invocation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, also turned me off. Each to his own.
richcapo 9 months ago
I think we all worship the same God...he has many names and is understood in different ways, but no matter what different religions call it, they all refer to the same God. So it's not important how you worship or what you call your worship, but the fact that you do worship. True prayer has no words or thoughts involved. You don't ask for things and tell God what you want. You let all thought go and consciously relate to God through this eternal moment.
-O.I.A.A.I.O-
IChIDH 10 months ago
@IChIDH Amen, IChIDH 1. That is exactly how I see it. Blessings are not bestowed by God through prayer, but harnessed though meditation and love -- which even the atheist can do, in my opinon.
With your beliefs, I bet you would make a fine Mason.
richcapo 9 months ago
@richcapo Yes I agree, anyone can harness the prayer, meditation, or love, whatever you want to call it, even atheists, because we are all human...if it's practiced enough. Funny you mention Mason's...I've been interested in them since my teen years, but I don't exactly come from a Mason-type family if you know what I mean. Are you one?
IChIDH 9 months ago
Can't wait for this to be released!
samuski36 1 year ago
93 From Argentina!
LiliaBykovaSergeevna 1 year ago
How's the movie coming along? Any downloads yet? 93 93/93
evokefrank 1 year ago
I'd love to see a Gnostic Mass with a large number of people in attendance -- that would be cool. Also to have "children" that were twins and shorter than the Priest and Priestess. I hope the documentary covers how this is also a magick ritual, and has the Priest and Priestess talk about charging the elements.
Mercury418 1 year ago
Historically the Gnostics rejected "The Mass".
Since they had hidden knowledge they knew it all and were off on their own. Call a dog a cat and that dog won't meow.
To call a dog a cat and to believe such is an IQ lowering process. IQ is an Intelligence quota, not a "Me, myself & I, regardless of facts" quota.
Hkepfer 2 years ago
@Hkepfer I'm pretty sure this is the "Gnostic Mass" outlined in Thelema, not actual Gnosticism. I could be wrong, of course.
masterfeatherpen 1 year ago
@masterfeatherpen I could be wrong too. ;-)
Hkepfer 1 year ago
we are Neognostics, dud ; ))
Anno IVxviii Sol 9° Sagittarius, Luna 18° Libra Dies Mercurii
1. december 2010 e.v. 12:51
93DragonFree 1 year ago
@93DragonFree Please excuse, I have no idea of what you speak.
2010 could be interesting or it could be a dud.
Hkepfer 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Watching this video has lowered my IQ. Avoid.
Hkepfer 2 years ago
how would this lower any ones IQ
if any thing it's raising you'r IQ because you'r leaning somthing new
now watching foot ball nascar or nlb will lower you'r IQ also strangly enough porn movies involving regular sex
sado masacism an bondage al the way also you can't go wrong with forced lesbianism also forced worship of the penis or vagina is good
leftwingnazi666 2 years ago
The Gnostic Mass is a very beautiful ritual that I enjoy a great deal. If I could do anything to make if a more fun ritual, I would. Some think it is a bit dry and boring, and I can see their point of view, though I see beauty first. Therefore, I see a need for a second version that does what the first does, but with more fun. It's for the Sun, therefore, there should be much Fun.
chaosopher23 2 years ago