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From: ultimatetoon
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  • andy carrooll world class.

  • Comment removed

  • Andy Carroll went from a Geordie ace to a £35 million flop for Liverpool! Demba Ba better & cost £0 for NUFC too.

  • 35 million pounds ? overrated for sure ! more like 6 million pounds !

  • How the fuck he is englands most expensive is beyond me. And he has a fucking shit haircut

  • I'm a Sunderland fan, and even though he was born a Newcastle supporter, I still think he is a great player!

  • you have nothing on Shola bonny lad ;)

  • @QuestionsToBeAsked kinda ironic you'd be saying the exact opposite if Ameobi left and Carroll stayed.

  • @Marko4ever12

    it was a joke, chill -_- ameobi is a waste of space :| carroll will be the best striker in the world in a couple of years, chill your bean sunshine.

  • @QuestionsToBeAsked I don't think anyone could have come up with a more fruity reply...

  • @Marko4ever12

    'Fruity' ??

    and he will be :S theres no one like him anymore he is the new shearer, be back at newcastle one day tho!

  • @QuestionsToBeAsked do you even know what I'm implying when I say fruity? 

  • @Marko4ever12

    nope hense the question marks

  • song?

  • Ide rather him go to united, liverpool are in the situation we were and are now a sinking ship, Ide rather him go to united with ambition

  • @Brappznd we could never be in the same situation as newcastle was, lol we are fighting for 4 spot, newcastle was relegated 2 seasons ago and u are a late to say that liverpool is sinking ship!! whats wrong with u!!??

  • @ninnnnnnnnnnnnn what are you fucking fighting for? you lose 3-1 to west ham already your 11th league loss and your telling me you actually think you can beat chelsea or spurs to 4th place? please spare me the bullshit all you have to look foward to in the coming seasons is the europa league a competition that doesn't consist of any of europe's elite teams so even if you win it it's still pointless. stop living in the past liverpool will never be what it was

  • @Marko4ever12 lol u are so wrong i said we are fighting for 4th spot and if there is still small chance then why not belive it!! i know we have crap team now but summer is coming and we are in rebuilding proces and next season will be the one!!!

    lol i love when some small club fan like u tell me europa league is bad and all that crap when his team is not even in that comp. and probably wont be for while!!!

  • @ninnnnnnnnnnnnn your 6 points behind chelsea who isn't even in 4th place and you've played 2 GAMES MORE are you stupid or are you just retarded? SPURS are 8 points ahead of you and have a GAME IN HAND and even if you were level with them on points you still wouldn't have a chance because your team is playing like shit. WHAT IS THERE TO REBUILD FROM? LAST SEASON YOU HAD TORRES AND GERRARD YET YOU FINISHED 7th you didn't lose anyone only mascherano who was overrated anyway.

  • @Marko4ever12 ok i wont spend anymore time on morons like u!!! im too old for this shit!!!

  • @ninnnnnnnnnnnnn bye bye grandpa.

  • @Marko4ever12 lol moron im(18) not that old, im just saying im not some 7 year old kiddy like u !!!

  • @ninnnnnnnnnnnnn fuck off you don't know shit about football arguing with you isn't even worth wasting my time. UNITED TOP liverpool 6th facts show themselves.

  • @Marko4ever12 fuck u have i asked u something? i dont think so...keep ur stupid opinion for your self!!! OK

  • @ninnnnnnnnnnnnn another thing I'm a United fan you douche...to us the europa league is an embarassment just like your team you have now is an embarassment to the team you had in the 70s and 80s. you haven't asked me shit so stop acting hard and face facts liverpool is getting weaker and weaker no matter who your coach is.

  • @Marko4ever12 first off all fuck those scums from manchester shity utd and u too! and wtf u have with this player then!! why are u even here this is liverpool player and thats it!! ok

  • @ninnnnnnnnnnnnn haha fuck off your a scouse scum and nothing else. you haven't won the league in over 20 years embarassing . I'm here because Carroll used to be one of my favourite players outside United yet he made an incredibly stupid move which is disapointing.

  • @Marko4ever12 lol im not scouse, and u better watch carroll on sunday when he crush shity united!!

  • Apprently he didn't wanna go the owner forced the deal due to the enormous sum liverpool offered. I really don't see what Newcastle are going to invest in with the 35M if it even goes into the club because no players as good as carroll will come to Newcastle I can tell you that.

  • although i'm absolutely gutted he left the toon i have to wish him the best of luck in the future and say the door's always open for the local lad...a unbelievable talent i'm sure he'll make history in the prem

    howay the lads!

  • I hear he is out for the rest of the season, haha 35M for a player who would not of played for us anyway, we could get 3 Andy Carrolls for that price in the summer, Thanks Liverpool, Fuck you Andy Carroll

  • loool 35m... Serious... im still freaked out that they'd pay 35m for that crap!!? lmao.

  • carroll is a prick

  • RATTER!

  • andy carroll was worth more to NUFC then any player they could buy for 35m.

    good luck gutted hes gone

  • He now plays for the REDS Carroll, Carroll

    His full English born and Bread Carroll, Carroll

    We bought the lad from Tyneside

    He now heads our front Line

    Andy Carroll Liverpool’s number Nine

  • 35Million =panic buy.

  • @mrhodes0348 i agree with that, no way is he worth more than suarez atm, but having prolific goal scorer plus an up and coming goal scorer in the league is an exciting prospect.

  • toon fans... u didnt wanna loose him. but better liverpool than united or chelsea right?

  • @kingkennyreturns why better to liverpool than united? he would have had some much more success at United and become one of the world's best under Sir Alex what's he got to look foward to at liverpool? 6th place finishes and the europa league.

  • @Marko4ever12 oh? at least better than 9th place right?

  • @nikz200 no because if carroll stayed for the rest of the season with newcastle and continued the brilliant form he has been in so far this season I can tell United would have came calling and if now United then 1 of the other 3 teams in holding a CL place which would have been a much better move.

  • @Marko4ever12 well looking at it, why would united even want to buy Carroll? Man Utd, dont need him, they have class strikers already. No other champions league team has need for strikers either, what with the chelsea scum and Arsenal loaded, they never once looked at Carolls direction. This was a good move for him. Newcastle, as long as Pardew is your manager and Mike Ashley is the owner? They will never make it to europe

  • @nikz200 Well since you don't follow football news you wouldn't know this but Spurs were ready to make an offer a few days before liverpool splashed out the cash and the only reason why Carroll ended up in Liverpool is because Spurs obviously weren't prepared to pay 35 million for him. Stop fucking saying mine I have nothing to do with newcastle I just think Carroll was too big an asset for them to lose he carried them throughout the entire championship season.

  • @Marko4ever12 ohhh? then what team are you for? And in the end, its Mikes Ashleys fault and Fernando Torres's fault. They caused that situation. You swearing at me is really pathetic. and why Spurs? Its clear as long as Crouch and Defoe are there, he will never get a starting place. Hmmph, aside for that, clearly Spurs didnt have enough resolve. They gave up, Liverpool took the chances , and that is all. Coming to Liverpool was a good career choice for him, better than bench warmer at the others

  • @nikz200 I'm a United fan and what the fuck does Torres have to do with anything? they already wanted to buy Suarez before there was even mention of Torres leaving so he would have been the replacement. Are you fucking kidding me? Crouch and Defore.... yes because Carroll stats and goals are nowhere near that of Defoe and crouch? please don't give me that shit he would easily make the spurs team along side van der vaart. They didn't give up they just didn't wanna spend that kind of cash

  • @nikz200 ok lets look at it closely had Carroll continued his great form waited until the end of the season and then moved he would be playing champions league football next season but at liverpool he can enjoy playing against the world best teams like sparta prague and aris... if your too stupid to realise I was being sarcastic.

  • @Marko4ever12 i clearly can tell that your being sarcastic, and if tottenham dont want to spend that money, then they dont win the raffle do they? You got to take chances sometimes, and their commitment was simply not enough to buy him. We on the other hand took the chance. Are you seriously telling me Caroll will start at Spurs? Your blind mate, there is no way Harry will give up his fav striker Crouch, or completely bench Defoe to make way for him. Tell me im wrong, look at Pavlychenko.

  • @nikz200 ok so carroll at newcastle United is 3rd in the top scores from the premier league with 11 while pavlychenko,crouch and defoe combined have 8 goals.. HAHA are fucking serious? tell me honestly because I'm starting to think you've lost it. Van Der Vaart and Bale are the only 2 big scores from spurs and carroll has scored more goals than either of them and your fucking telling me he wouldn't make the spurs line up? if you actually wanna continue this sad argument pay attention to football

  • @nikz200 Spurs weren't prepared to pay 35 M because its only Carroll's first proper season in EPL and they're not convinced yet that he was worth that much. Oh and if you didn't know Man City were also interested in buying him had they not bought Dzeko Carroll could have easily been in a City shirt right now. If City wanna buy him you know he's something special. Yes you are wrong and so was carroll for moving to liverpool his loss...

  • @Marko4ever12 hang on... so your upset he went to Liverpool? What if he is a sucess? What if he becomes an unstoppable monster........ hmmm? Then what will you do? Funny, cause the way your saying is , 1. he could wait till the summer and then move to a champions league side, and 2. Because he is at LIVERPOOL he will be a flop, wow, how mature of you. Cause the way i see, im sure Carroll can build himself up into a excellent striker and soon play champs football. Not his loss at all..

  • @nikz200 it doesn't fucking matter if he does well at liverpool because HE WON'T EVER BE NEAR A PREMIER LEAGUE TITLE OR PLAYING IN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE DO YOU UNDERSTAND? you really don't know anything about football.... yeah because liverpool will beat chelsea,spurs and man city to finish in the top 4 thats gonna happen very soon again I'm being sarcastic YES HIS LOSS ACCEPT IT AND MOVE ON

  • @Marko4ever12 hahahahahaha, man i like you kid, you actually think you know football... you just sit back and watch lad.... champions league football will return to Anfield, and Caroll will be a star by then.... you just sit back and watch :)

  • @nikz200 well considering i've been playing football since i was 4, played at the highest level in the country for my age group when i was 14, won titles with my high school and club, and i've been watching football since i was a toddler i know what im fucking talking about so don't tell me I think i know football BECAUSE I KNOW IT BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. oh and sat back and watched last season and this season where is liverpool...in the europa league.

  • @Marko4ever12 ive played for my school and played for several clubs ive watched football since i was a toddler as well. i have been to the stadiums and played the big matches kid..... ive stopped since then, but i love this game, ive been playing it for a long time. i still do, for my local league team. You want to talk football to me? You kids now days, there is no heart, you all lack passion and desire . Liverpool will come back, because the club has passion and desire... not like you kid

  • @nikz200 wow...have you played at the highest level in the country at youth level? didn't think so. I've played at Suncorp Stadium before a Roar Game with my school 3 years ago if you don't know who the roar are look them up currently Australian champions and 28 games unbeaten. stop calling me kid because I'm probably older than you and I know more about football than you ever will so spare yourself the embarassment. haha liverpool is a lost cause kind of like you only United has Passion!

  • @Marko4ever12 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Australia???? REALLY???? OMG IM SO IMPRESSED, HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHA your just another loser kid heading into nothingness... go on son, have a good laugh eh? Liverpool is a lost cause? Let me tell you something kid, dont go around saying things you cant back up in the future, lost cause eh? Interesting, lets wait and see shall we? Cause i know, since i am better than you clearly, that what goes down... must come up, Boy.

  • @nikz200 what are you a fat indian cunt who can only talk about how livershit will be back when they are 6th in the league and just knocked out by a 2nd class team like braga. stop eating cake and get some exercise you've played football? HAHAHAHA you couldn't even run 5 metres the only position you could play is goalie and even then you'd be too fat to jump. what can I back up? liverpool finishing 6th what can you back up? nothing your an embarassment I know more about football than u ever will

  • @Marko4ever12 hehehehehehe, the best you could come up with eh? no matter, i have nothing more to say to you, the face that you came with that come back show how weak you are... we are done here

  • @nikz200 oh yeah we are done here because you've got nothing left and I've won. Maybe if you didn't go to mcdonalds everyday you wouldn't waste so much time online and actually have a girlfriend. you've got nothing learn to speak english and lose weight.

  • @Marko4ever12 football, i played... even though i was overweight.. i played it, till the end.. i put my effort and heart... i grew fat and i lost more than 10 kg over the last year or so, i do have a girlfriend, and i speak fluent english, i studied in a aussie school. i love Liverpool, maybe to a fault. it was wrong of me to insult your achievement, i know whats its like to train and play football.. i still do, no matter how bad i was, or how fat i was. So its fine, it ends.

  • @nikz200 ok good luck with that. 

  • @Marko4ever12 pull your head in you fucking twat! Stop lying about who you are by hiding behind a computer scree, keyboard warrior

  • @patmoz23 who the fuck are you? yeah cause you would know more about my life than I would you sad ass licker. enjoy waiting for sex after marriage ahaha

  • @Marko4ever12 also, i am sure you are a great player, and i do not doubt it at all. I hope you and me can be friends, as im sure you are one hell of a player :)

  • @Marko4ever12 shut the fuck up cunt

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL you mad faggot? haha

  • @Marko4ever12 I said shut the fuck up cunt lips

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL aww little girl gonna cry?

  • @Marko4ever12 what part of fuck up didn't you understand faggity faggot?

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL really moody aren't you? must be that time of the month ahaha did you enjoy your trip to the britannia? the season just started and we're already 5 points ahead of you

  • @Marko4ever12 FUCK UP AND LOL AT YOU LOSING TO CHELSHIT

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL ahahaha so what happened to us losing against chelsea? 3-1 hahaaha how about we concentrate on the other game Spurs 4-0 liverpool thats embarasing 5 games gone and already 8 point gap your basically out of any title contention hahaha

  • @Marko4ever12 fuck up cunt

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL cry little baby cry hahahahaha

  • @Marko4ever12 did you enjoy your trip to the britannia? at least you draw, good job, man city is closing in hahahaha

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL yeah we did because we ACTUALLY GOT SOMETHING OUT OF IT HAHAAHAHAHAH closing in are they? oh good luck to them because we've already played chelsea,arsenal and spurs whilst they've only played spurs and we're still on the same amount of points. Don't forget they're coming to old trafford in a months time where they like everyone else will get smashed. Enjoy more europa league spurs will beat you to the 4th place....

  • @Marko4ever12 come back when you got 5 CL trophy and beat Barca lol stupid fuckign MANURE

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL I'm sorry when was your last trophy? 2006 fa cup? since your last trophy we've won 4 league titles, 2 league cups, countless community shields and not to mention A EUROPEAN CUP also reaching 2 finals oh as for barcelona they're lucky we didn't have the team we have now because they're gonna get raped this season if they try us come back when you can actually CHALLENGE FOR SOMETHING LOL hahahahahahaha even spurs beat you 4-0 a team we haven't lost to in years how embarassing

  • @Marko4ever12 fuck up YA MANURE PIECE OF SHIT

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL ahaha typical livershit whining liverpool = the new arsenal in attitude and achievement hahahahahaha

  • @Marko4ever12 yes fuck off cunt ya and wank on your manure shit team

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL lick balls faggot how does it feel watching us lift the title? hahahahah

  • @Marko4ever12 fuck ya cunt maunich shit

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL awww did I make the little girl cry? aww run to mummy hahahah

  • @Marko4ever12 fuck off munich cunt

  • @LiverpoolfcEPL moody little thing you must be on your period LOL

  • @Marko4ever12 what was that cunt? go find a cock to suck and fuck your racist evra as well that cunty french monkey

  • @nikz200 1 other more thing last time i checked suncorp stadium has 55,000 capacity where have you played? jihab arena? hahahaha you haven't even played football so stop talking shit you fat douche and let this argument go because I'm just going to keep embarassing you if you keep replying tubby.

  • @kingkennyreturns another idiot who can't spell lose.

  • @kingkennyreturns doesnt matter i would rather he went to a club that actually had a chance of winning something..........

  • Best ov luck andy!

  • He's let a hell of a lot of people down...

  • He's got potential, but is a great half-year at the top-level really worth 35 million?  The fact that half of this two minute video is his "good" misses seems to support that argument.

  • @whatupdawgkid your forgetting this compilation is over a year old.. most of the clips are from the 2008/2009 season from when newcastle were relegated. Carroll was only 19/20 at the time, he wasn't apart of the first team yet, but scored 3 goals and was still learning the game. Newcastle were just bad that season. Over this season and last i think he's improved rapidly, and his goal record proves that. He hasn't justified his price tag yet, but i wouldn't judge him on the basis of this video.

  • My condolences to the Newcastle supporters. I know what it's like to lose your best striker. I promise we'll treat him well. Good luck, Toon. YNWA.

  • R.I.P Torres!

  • Wlelcome to LIVERPOOL ANDY !

  • หงส์จะบินแล้ว liv will fly

  • He is liverpool

  • JUDAS CUNT!

  • Welcome to Liverpool Andy, the kop are going to take to you my friend ......There is only one place in the world that could love you as much as those crazy Goerdies and its those mad scousers

  • @MrNiceHk  agreed he will be a favorite. with carroll he is not at a stage where he thinks its his god given right to play at the highest level, not like torres. when things get tough torres gets stroppy and disinterested. Liverpool have replaced a massive ego, with a passionate northern lad. Liverpool and Carroll, its good timing for both. oh and Suarez might just be worth a mention also.

  • @sammysnakejones I am not just saying this but I truly love both of these signings, Carroll big strong lad, kinda like crouch but with Muscle and Suarez a street kid with heart and talent .. I f ing love that. Both are exceptional signings and I love the fact the club are willing to buy big for big potential. Fernando who ? his loss and what a loss it will turn out to be lets see who made the right choice in 4 years time

  • WELCOME TO LFC ANDY BOY!

  • 35 million pounds worth of trouble.

  • The new Alan Shearer will be playing for LFC....!!!

  • Welcome Andy!!!! YNWA

    New Liverpool No.9

  • welcome to Anfield Andy - come on you reds! - YNWA

  • soulless journeyman. just like the rest. never thought he would end up like that. hope he fails under the pressure of being 35 million man on 80 k a week.

  • Caroll + Suarez > Torres

  • @ElNinoLalibre

    Carroll + Suarex > better than torres.

  • @TheFootballGODS

    Thats what i meant...Suarez and Caroll are MORE THAN (see original comment) than Torres.

  • @ElNinoLalibre much better than torres

  • Welcome !!!!!

  • hope Carroll and Suarez combine 20+ goals because Torres gave only 9 for half a season

  • welcome andy!!!!!! YNWA

  • welcome...plz cut your hair andy. YNWA

  • welcome to liverpool

  • YNWA Andy.

  • WELCOME TO LIVERPOOL! SCREW TORRES THIS GUY AND SUAREZ IS MUCH BETTER THAN ONE LIAR

  • Over-paid by Liverpool BUT still a Suarez + Caroll partnership is better than Torres upfront on his own.

  • liverpool

  • Liverpool have just had a 30mil bid rejected for him and accordining to Sky Sources, if Torres leaves then Liverpool will be back with a 35million offer. Not worth that much if you ask me but a Suarez + Caroll partnership is better than Torres on his own upfront. 

  • juve :)

  • He's a fucking donkey I seriously hope liverpool don't buy him....

  • he's in my opinion the best headerer in the league, probably better than cahill and chamakh -> /watch?v=u9tPQOQv6e4

  • This Guy is a "one man forward"!!

    His Strength/Power, Pace, Stamina, Acceleration, Heading , is UNSTOPPABLE!!!

    <3 Andy Carroll Geordie No. 9 Newcastle Legend already !!

  • @alcobelacity : Band=The Temper Trap

    Song=Sweet Disposition

  • from behind he looks like a lady

  • @elkwyre

    that's a 6'3 muscular giant of a lady then

  • batistuta reincarnated

  • Great vid.....Shame it wasn't longer!

  • BRITISH DROGBA

  • @pigletbus: Quality description

  • music?? Anyone knows what the music is? would appreciate ur time! thx

  • @RocketZZZ: Band=The Temper Trap

    Song=Sweet Disposition......Awesome football song innit. Pure raw feeling when listening to this. It was as if it was made for football passion.

  • @treenut999 treenut999, you sound very romantic! It is indeed! thanks for replying!

  • @RocketZZZ: Hehe.....think i've been watching too much ''Goal'' movies....:/lol

    No worries, your welcome!

  • @RocketZZZ *you're welcome

  • Apparently Andy Carrol 'accidentally' threw a pint glass at someone in a nightclub. cutting him above the eye. HAHA how the fuck did he get away with that? JOKER

  • He Shoots, He Scores, He Breaks Your Fucking Jaw, Andy Carroll, Andy Carroll!!!!

  • he is a star!

  • i think carroll is crap, not even a proven goal scorer, only scored goals in the fizzy pop league were him and his team belong, darren bent and asamoah gyan are the only good strikers in the north east, fact

  • @TheGibson841 haha your just jealous of newcastle u mackem fuck :)

  • @TheGibson841 He's got 4 goals already, more than what the whole sunderland team has all together.'FACT'. How can you say Asamoah Gyan is one of the best strikers in the NE? He hasent even played a fucking game for yous yet. Your Just anouther makum talking shit.

    p.s Why are you even looking up Andy Carrol anyway if hes so shit? Idiot.

  • get in the Scotland squad you absolute beast!!

  • @fallingarmchair92

    There is no glory in playing for Scotland. If he played for England and was a key figure in them winning someting, he'll be a legend forever.

  • @brightlights456X

    Well, i think you may need to calm down, you obviously have a slightly biased view. He is a good player, but saying he will become a legand of England is too far. Compare him ro Rooney, this guy will probly become a "legend" of England, when Rooney was 18 he had already established himself as a hot prospect. When Carroll was 18 he wasnt that well recognised. He wasnt scoring that many for Newcastle, nor did he score many at Preston.

  • @fallingarmchair92

    Yeah, and look where that "hot prospect" got us. Plus age means nothing. Torres was captain of Athlitico Madrid at19. Brazilian Ronaldo was to scorer in the Dutch league at 16/17 AND was world player of the year at 20 and Henry won the WC & EC by the age of 22.

    Rooney is WAAAYYYYY OVERRATED. Lets just keep this 100% truthful here. Granted it's too early to tell with Carrol, but Rooneys had his chance.

    Ooh yeah, Rooney is boring to watch as well, no.....flare.

  • @brightlights456X

    well thats really backing up my point, He is 21 and he isnt at the level of any of these great players, yes he is a good player, but he scored 3 goals againts a massively below average villa side, he was good in that game, but i wouldent say amazing. as for Rooney, i dont like him, but you cannot deny his talent, when he was 18 he came on for his debut and scored an amazing a goal againts an arsenal side who where unbeaten in 21 games.

  • @brightlights456X and yes Rooney hasnt prooved himself at international level, but the entire english team where very poor and there was too much pressure on Rooney, so its unfair to judge him alone on his performance at the world cup, because his club form so far has been amazing!

  • @fallingarmchair92 "so its unfair to judge him alone on his performance at the world cup"

    Funny how David Villa or Zidane managed to handle their pressure.

    " his club form so far has been amazing!"

    No...that was C.Ronaldo.

  • @brightlights456X hahaha your really are ridiculous, i not sure what point you are trying to make by talking about villa and zidane, if you could clarify that would be great. Saying that rooneys club form hasnt been amazing shows how deluded you are. I dont like Roooney but 26 goals in 32 games last season tells anyone who knows a thing about football that he has been on really good form....you are quite deluded and really quite biased so discussing with you is never going to work.....

  • @brightlights456X

    So to say that he will help England win something is quite ridiculous, im sure he would get int he squad, but only maybe as much as say Darren Bent, getting on in friendlies adn being in the squad for competitions, but not really playing that much. So his talent would be wasted if he went to England, if he went to Scotland on the other hand he would be a very valuable member of the squad, and he would have a real sence of achievement in bringing the squad forward.

  • @fallingarmchair92

    That maybe true, but Scotland has a very weak defence. He would have to have the same determination Diego Forlan did for Uruguay and equal the goal scoring consistency David Villa had done for Spain in the 2010 WC.

    That is A LOT to ask for from one man

  • @brightlights456X i'm not saying that Scotland would win anything, it would take a lot more than 1 player, but there is a large amount of Scotland youth that is breaking into the team, Carroll could be a part of this new team and this team could certainly qualifty for the big competitions and maybe get into the knockout stages, with players like Dorrans (top scorer in the champ last season and a midfielder) Fleck, That boy who moved to liverpool, Brown and then there is still a whole heap more

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