Catalyst Conference Erwin McManus

[JLowCapo]

Ok so Erwin's base message is the same as yours, Jesus came, died, rose again, and now we are commissioned to be like Christ, right? So why try nailing someone else for spreading the Message when you could be out speaking life into someone who has never heard the Message. He is leading no one away from God, which makes him on your side whether you agree with everything he says or not is not the point. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I would rather be corrected than living a lie.

[et3rnald]

Wow...disciplined people are not creative? Disciplined people are the most creative people I know -- they work at it and build up their skills. I should know, I went to art school. McManus is seriously distorting what Christianity is. Discipleship is tremendously biblical, e.g. Timothy being discipled by Paul, Jesus discipling the apostles. McManus' teachings are subtly erroneous but the more he teaches the further you get away from the simple gospel of Christ. Test him against the Bible!

[kendallford36]

I think that arguing over a teaching like this is ridiculous.

God can defend himself. He doesn't need us to.

[berean1129]

Ahhhh... more false teachers makin' money from the catalyst 'con' ference.

[fxtrader92]

Basically he's mocking the bible. The bible - as in God's Word - over and over again commands us to be disciplined - not "genuine and authentic" (where is THAT in the bible McManus?).

I especially like Hebrews 12:8 - "If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons." (NIV)

Thanks Erwin. I would rather be a "legitimate child of God" than what you are - "Genuine and Authentic". See Rev 3:19, Heb 12:11, 2 Tim 1:7, etc.

[elpidohope]

Young adults are leaving the church! A See this video!

[oscrat35]

God made each one of us to be different, I mean if he truly wanted us all to be the same he would have made us all to be the same and take away our free will. The ultimate goal, the whole person on the pedestal is Jesus Christ. But JC was the only person to never sin, and by human nature we tend to sin a lot. "All Have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God" - Romans 3:23.

The world needs God, and i think that is what Erwin is trying to say.

[shockingalternative]

No doubt erwin is a passionate speaker but i am struck by the fact that Christ seems more like a backdrop than a centerpiece in his sermons. God doesn't need to be marketed and relevant he is the Great I AM. unbelievers don't need to feel special; they need the truth that they are sinners in need of reconciliation with God, through Jesus Christ. that is all that matters. period.

[WisdomX001]

well....idk from the sermons ive heard him preach, he speaks in a way that anyone in search of truth can understand, he speaks to the seekers, to the people who want answers, and he speaks realistically about the Bible. From the perspective that seems to match the one the disciples from the Bible had. And he tells them the answer they search for is God.....at least from the sermons i heard from him....

[fxtrader92]

@WisdomX001, I implore you to check out what the Bible actually says about discipline. See Hebrews 12:8 for example. McManus actually directly contradicts the bible on this issue making him a false teacher. He doesn't believe in Discipleship or discipline and so here is his weak and false attack on those important biblical concepts.

[WisdomX001]

@fxtrader92 ....Well he wasn't saying that that stuff was bad. If you listen to more of his messages you might understand that what he is doing is describing a mindset that is not true. Discipline is not the root for discipleship and that does not equate to becoming exactly the same as everyone else beforehand. He says it that way (speaking to leaders who knows its not true) to show us that the logic of that path is completely absent.

[WisdomX001]

@fxtrader92 er...just in case that doesn't make sense, basically he wasn't stating his beliefs when dealing with discipline and discipleship (from some of his stories that is clear...having chosen to disciple only people who are willing to discipline themselves for God) he was simply emphasizing that standardization is illogical.

[fxtrader92]

@WisdomX001 Actually about 1:28 into the video he says: "Actually discipline is all about standardization". I'm surprised you would even argue this. He directly contradicts scripture and does it in a mocking, sarcastic tone: "We all know that's what Jesus died for."

As a former member of Mosaic, I know exactly what he was saying. Erwin McManus does not believe in discipleship, never has. Certainly not biblical discipleship - He believes in indoctrination for a select few.

[WisdomX001]

@fxtrader92 I'm very sorry, I have to apologize because I have tried seeing it your way, but it doesn't make sense to me. Also it is very hard to talk to someone who is not open to seeing it from my point of view, you are taking quotes while I am referring to his tone. His mocking tone was directed towards a false doctrine that people tend to fall into, not one that he actually follows. Sorry if you disagree, but its true.

[fxtrader92]

@WisdomX001 My position is based on the biblical view of discipline. See Heb 12:8, Rev 3:19, Heb 12:11, 2 Tim 1:7. My position is that this is an example of McManus' false teachings. You will not understand my position until you read these scriptures. You have yet to address these scriptures that I have now posted twice. McManus clearly states his position against discipline and discipleship in this video. You need to READ THE WORD and test McManus' teaching against it. He is a false teacher.

[WisdomX001]

@fxtrader92 ....I have read the scriptures you listed...now read mine: James 1:19, Proverbs 12:15. Your point is that the Bible supports discipline and discipleship and I fully agree! That is irrelevant though since we are talking about what Erwin believes. You assume what he is saying in the video is his actual beliefs I think he is using sarcasm to make a point, not stating his views on discipleship or discipline which can be more clearly found in his sermon, "The Disproportionate Investor".

[fxtrader92]

@WisdomX001 Wow. I didn't know you were a theological giant - using scripture to call someone a fool. Your position is foolish. He's clearly railing against discipline stating that it leads to "standard" Christians, etc., etc. This is merely McManus backed into a corner trying to theologically justify his aberrant, heretical positions.

To say that he's saying anything else demonstrates that you are so deeply involved in this cult that you can't even understand the logic of the English language.

[WisdomX001]

@fxtrader92 Haha, I was actually trying more to ask you to listen to what I am saying. In any case, you have your opinions and I have mine. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and revealing your passion for the word; I admire that.

[fxtrader92]

@WisdomX001 You aren't actually arguing that he could possibly be teaching that discipline or discipleship matter in his world(ly) view, are you? With that Mocking, irreverent attitude he has.

Read the Word. Do not follow McManus to where he's taking his flock. He's a wolf among the sheep.

[seandanford]

I think you are all taking this into the wrong context. If you listen to some other sermons from McManus, he talks alot about God's purpose for the individual and their unique place in the body of Christ, which is very biblical.

[das1972]

Where does he come up with this stuff? Discipleship according to Christ Himself is to follow Him and become like Him. In reality all Christians should be about "standardization" because Christ is our standard and we should all look like Him - see Ephesians 5:1 - If the followers of teachers like this would actually read their Bibles they would not be so taken in by their teachings. So sad.

[worship090]

You people don't get it. He's saying that essentially Christians have made it unappealing, which we have. Before you judge Erwin Mcmanus, go read the barbarian way.

I'm going to be honest, If i weren't a Christian, and i saw all of these comments, I would be staying the ehck away from it all, because of this conversation right here.

What did Jesus say? A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. We are dividing God's kingdom with denominations, and debates.

[FunnessOfOneness]

Yup! If a church is threatened by pagan religions it may be because they have nothing better to offer. However, if you carry the Kingdom of Heaven you have the best thing to offer.

[JBeezie428]

@worship090 Jesus, and all of the Judao-Christian, divided the kingdom known as "human beings" by saying only believers in their god get to have "eternal" life.

[LWYMMiami]

I'm tired of hearing the post-modern, untruthful, reinventive, emergent preachers throw their psycho-babel, seeker friendly message in order to attack what is Biblical and orthodox. Yes everyone is unique but in essence he's saying that sinners have a more elevated sense of spirituality than the believer does. If this is true then why do sinners keep sinning? The Word of God doesn't accomodate itself to the culture but the other way around. God makes you a "new creature".

[kingface86]

"The Word of God doesn't accomodate itself to the culture but the other way around." Isn't that what he said when he calls churches not to be relative but transforming? You attack the very argument you support.

[NovoMilitis]

I think we waste too much time debating one another and questioning each other's motives and credibility.

[John 5:39 - You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about ME.]

...I think people listen way to much to the preacher preaching and not the SPIRIT moving. I pray for eyes to see and ears to hear GOD (not man) every time I listen to a sermon..

[roblakov]

Amen. I agree. There is a time and a place for debating and discussing with each other but our focus should be on the unsaved world.

By the way, if any of you haven't read this guys book, "The Barbarian Way", than you really need to. It gives you such a great perspective on how we should be living as Christians.

[themonument]

The world needs the church? The world needs God and God absolutely does not need us.

[Joeboxer78]

yes, and the world will know that the Father sent Jesus when the church is united. The church is the body of Jesus, and Jesus has given the church the mission to spread the good news. So yes...I would say the world needs God, and so God sent His Son to build His church. God doesn't need us, but absolutely wants us!

[themonument]

I agree, too bad that's not what McManus teaches. He emphasizes the self, the universe within. The self proclaimed "Cultural Architect" should take note of what the Bible asks of Christian leaders.

[Gen0sphere]

Erwin McLeaven!

[GeraldNC]

Were any of you at Catalyst? Do you know what it is? It's church leaders, not the unsaved of the world...but those who are leading the church to reach the world. I was there, I heard his whole speach...it's not a preaching event btw. I'm reading his book now...which does an excellent job of pouring Scripture in to our lives. (Chasing Daylight is the book).

There are other "better" preachers out there for sure, but please take in to some consideration who he was speaking to here and don't judge.

[gtrjunky]

He does a really good job of pouring his own meaning into scripture.

[gtrjunky]

A radical shift would be if Mcmanus would repent before God and be obedient to the Word and preach the Gospel. Cut out this man-centered,feel good,self indulgent,self-promoting non-sense that's derived from human wisdom and just teach people the pure truth of the bible.

[phr34ky5tyl3y]

I think before anyone can cast judgment on what McManus is saying we have to realize that 1. this is only a small clip of his entire sermon and 2. you can hear quite a bit of sarcasm in his voice (a technique used to create humor). You comment only fuels the stereotype that Christians are closed minded and judgment people, I'm sure you could've said all that in a much better way. I'll agree that the Gospel needs to be preached in its raw convicting truth, but your comments.. show some love

[samsaphone]

In short, Erwin is right in that God's people should NOT stifle individuality, creativity, etc. He doesn't mention, however, that the richness and diversity HAS to come from individual reflections and refractions of personal relationships with GOD (like light shining through the colors and fractures of...a mosaic, if you'll pardon the pun), else the diversity is simply divisive and will play into the hands of those striving against God and His people.

So yeah, Erwin is off the reservation here.

[samsaphone]

"The very first step is to forget about the self altogether. Your real, new self (which is Christ's and also yours, and yours just because it is His) will not come as long as you are looking for it. It will come when you are looking for Him...Look for yourself, and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin and decay. But look for Christ and you will find Him, and with Him everything else thrown in."

-C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity.

So brother Erwin is shaky here

[samsaphone]

"Sameness is to be found among the most 'natural' of men, not among those who have surrenedered to Christ. How monotonously alike all the great tyrants and conquerors have been: how gloriously different are all the saints"

"But there must be a real giving up of the self...Christ will indeed give you a new personality, but you must not go to Him for the sake of that...as long as your personality is what you are bothering about you are not going to Him at all..." (Continued)

[samsaphone]

Come on, guys...let's check fruits. Yes, I'm a little bothered by his focus--it seems like he's dealing with side issues, responding on tangents that might not seem "relevant" (in the sense that they don't make sense."

Now, he's right in the sense that true humanity--being a child of the Living God, can only be truly expressed in a relationship with Christ. But one shouldn't go to Christ just to get a new personality. I'm out of space here so I'll write it on my next comment.

[MOPmember]

youtube dot com/user/prayerhour

More of the same.

[gtrjunky]

If the gospel isn't being preached then surely God is NOT present at mosaic, and souls are NOT being saved. People will only be converted to a big self-help program and it will only be a big building full of people.

[camryn09]

Listen to his pod-casts. He quotes the bible, he uses passages from scripture. That is a rumor. Erwin is a fantastic preacher and interpreter of scripture. You should listen to his sunday talks, they're enspiring

[gtrjunky]

I have listened to his podcasts and his Barbarian way CD set. He says alot of things that really scratch those hard to reach places in the ears.

If you want to hear Real Biblical, Christ centered teaching, type in Paul Washer and listen to him. That's accurate interpretation of scripture.

[gtrjunky]

I would like to know if anyone can direct me to a resource where I can hear Mcmanus actually preach the Gospel of repentance and faith in Jesus for the forgiveness os sins and recieving the righteusness of Christ. I don't mean this worthless junk about discovering the "hero" within me, or fulfilling my divine destiny. I can watch Oprah and listen to that.

[gtrjunky]

I would suggest that if anyone here wants to hear some genuine bilical preaching that is free of any man made wisdom that you check out Paul Washer. He preaches a clear Gospel message, contrary to this stuff.

[cephascho]

paul washer is good, but i think listening to only paul washer isnt a good idea.. i used to do that, and then i listened to other preachers such as leonard ravenhill, john macarthur, and my personal favorite, john piper. i believe you can't just listen to a certain preacher and no one else. it kinda biases the truth to that person's detailed belief. i dont think anyone can be right about everything. always listen to a variety of teachers.

[gtrjunky]

These are very subtle lies. There isn't any scripture to support what he is saying.We don't come to Christ to find our "uniqueness", or to discover our destiny. This is all just a man-centered appeal to puff up human pride. We come to Christ to be forgiven of our sins and to be conformed to the image of the Son.

[87next99]

what he's saying is that the church shouldn't conform or be "relevent" to the world, that it should be unique. We do come to christ to be saved, but he also uses us in unique ways. You seem to have a problem with anyone preaching anything but salvation. Salvation is important, but once you're already saved there are other important truths like what erwin is preaching here that are very helpful in your growing relationship with god.

[aw4jesuschrist]

I love this video! I am so with what Erwin is saying, our churches seem to be getting more and more complacant. We need revival.

[PIRATEER2007]

Hey MOPmember, souls are saved at Mosaic. God is present at Mosaic. God uses Erwin McManus to speak into lives all over the world. It is a bummer that you were hurt, but if you and your MOP group put as much effort into seeking and saving the lost as you do into warning others about the "Evils of Mosaic" this world would be a far better place. Please get over it. Every ministry is imperfect and is made up by imperfect people just like you me and Erwin.

[brianmpei]

I like Erwin but he's using the word 'relevant' differently here than it's accepted and understood definition. He's meaning 'contemporary' maybe, but to say he's tired of being 'relevant' is just a gimmick. In fact, during this clip he'll use relevant in a positive way and with it's understood meaning. It sounds clever and cutting edge though.

[gtrjunky]

Yes I am tired of being "relevant", however I am more tired of weak, cowardly so called "teachers" who don't have the guts to preach the gospel and the truth! McManus idea that the church is trying to create a bunch of "clones" is simply not true. No one is trying to do that. The church is supposed to be a witness to the world so that they may be saved. This garbage "teaching" is not glorifying God but appealing to man! McManus is another example of 2 Timothy 4:3!

[abediddie]

It is the habit of many in the church to judge other believers based upon their own convictions and views of the Christian life. In addition, the tendency is to form these convictions based upon very rigid-and sometimes inaccurate-understandings of God's law. People develop these strong convictions and live by them. The problem, though, is that they do more than just live by these heartfelt guidelines themselves: they also expect everyone else to live by the same convictions.

[abediddie]

"One person's faith allows them to eat everything, but another person, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted that person. Who are you to judge someone Else's servant? To their own master they stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. (Romans 14:2-4 NIV)

[MOPmember]

Interesting how the members of this group continually find themselves having to "explain" their leader's words...

[darrincrow]

Why? He's speaking to believers about things believers understand. If I were watching a clip about hair-weaving, and decided to mock it in my ignorance, I would not be surprised when those who understand clarified things for me. This is simply more important than hair-weaving. Be careful - maybe Erwin is not the one who is stupid. Ignorance is betrayed in many ways...

[NiseyG]

God imagines? How antiscriptural. This false teacher presents NO Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sinners saved by the grace of Jesus' death on the cross? Where is it? you won't find it with this guy! Lots of blah blah blah, discipline, discipline.. whatever.. what a lie! There is no message here.. Jesus dies to clone us off?? "spiritual instinct"?? PTOOEY!

[Ryguy969]

Start thinking for yourself. God does have emotions. He is Jealous and Loving.

Looks like you just read material or heard your leaders talk against that.

[Hisresonance]

By "Jesus died to clone us off," Mcmanus is using a form of satire to exhibit the inane customs, the lifelessness and complacency of many churches today. Mcmanus is trying to revolutionize the original purpose of the church: to aid non members. Churches today can be so repelling because so often they exhibit conformity and aren't going anywhere. They should set the lead, not be a place of redundancy and conformity. Is it wrong to want spiritual progression? To grow and change for the better?

[dutchlove33]

i am tired of being relevant- that's great.