Always interesting to listen to discussions about music education.
CBC the main radio broadcasting station in Canada used to air mosty Classical music but over the years reduced the Classical segment to just a few hours a day replaced by other popular forms of music.
Children's TV programs tend to promote popular music over something old-fashioned for ad revenue. Parents enroll their kids in private music instructions what they see as discipline.
Ultimately, I would argue that I don't disagree our system of education is the problem - but I don't believe that any music educators in our country are intentionally devaluing music education for the sake of competition - quite the contrary, in fact. My colleagues nationwide are very interested in helping each of our students learn to love music through the challenge of instrumental performance - but the sad fact is our administrators and in many cases, our communities - don't understand it.
@Danzona40 I also do not believe that music educators are INTENTIONALLY devaluing music education for the sake of competition. They just don't realize how bad things are. Instrumental music is almost completely extinct in the U.S. outside of government funded institutions. There is little, if any, interest in instrumental music in the real world, even from former instrumental music students. The problem is that students do not learn to love music by simply playing musical instruments.
Thus, it falls to us to encourage kids to make music in the organizations we have, where we are in constant competition with that same mass media that sells the lie that everyone can be a star, and everyone can sing pro, play in the NFL, and get accolades for themselves - when the POINT of making music in a band, orchestra or choir is do do it TOGETHER and do it WELL, so that others will WANT to listen. Would YOU want to attend a concert where most of the kids played like hacks?
@Danzona40 Of course, nobody wants to "attend a concert where most of the kids played like hacks." But, if school music ensembles played slightly less challenging material, which would make some class time available for teaching music appreciation, the students, the parents, and the administrators would NOT know the difference. Only the music educators would know the difference. The problem is that music educators are obsessed with what other music educators think and nothing else.
While I can see your point (and great handle, btw, have you always been a Rush fan?) - I would argue simply that there is not a clear way to satisfy the demands of our administrators and keep our jobs, and simultaneously encourage kids to take up instruments and play in a concert band. Kids are bombarded daily by media images of solo rock artists and indie bands, none of whom could describe what a French horn or an oboe is, let alone play one.
@Danzona40 Ahhh...somebody finally noticed the Rush reference. I have heard the "demands of our administrators" argument many, many times. In 30 years of first-hand personal experience with music education, I have never even heard of a music educator losing his position because of poor competitive performance. Even if it has happened, it is an extremely rare occurrence. This argument is just a way for music educators to justify their endless obsession with beating each other.
@Danzona40 Yes. I agree. Kids are "bombarded daily by media images of solo rock artists and indie bands". This is why it is more important than ever for instrumental music educators to teach respect and appreciation for instrumental music to their students. Music educators are teaching their students ONLY what they need to know in order to perform well at concerts and festivals. This is why instrumental music outside of schools is dead and instrumental music education is dying.
It is fascinating how instrumental music educators are completely uninterested in the state of instrumental music in the real world, outside of their little government-funded fantasy world. Instrumental music in the U.S. essentially only exists in government institutions and because of government funding. There is little, if any, public interest or support for instrumental music in the real world, even from adults who played instrumental music in school bands or orchestras. How very sad.
The reality is that as music educators who wish to survive in the modern public education construct, we must perform to the satisfaction of people paid to assess us from a position of ignorance, in many cases. Achievement demonstrates success; non-achievement communicates failure. The person who makes the most difference to a student is the one who can communicate to them the difference between competing for a rating and making great music - and who can teach them how to do both at once.
@Danzona40 It is music "educators" who are judges at festivals who impose such high performance standards on other music "educators" which requires enormous amounts of rehearsal time, leaving no class time to teach appreciation for music to instrumental music students. I still believe the problem is that music educators are obsessed with gaining the admiration of other music educators and teach students how to play music but not WHY to play music in order to gain this admiration.
@Danzona40 If "achievement demonstrates success" for music educators, then I suppose an educator's ensembles must score well at music festivals to demonstrate success. But, who are the judges at those festivals? Answer: current and former music educators. So, music educators are forcing each other to spend all of their class time preparing for performances and no class time teaching students music appreciation. Music "educators" are doing it to themselves and music education is dying.
The only radio station in the 5th largest city in the U.S. that played instrumental music recently changed its format to all vocal pop music. Instrumental music is steadily disappearing from our society and instrumental music educators continue along in blissful ignorance. Instrumental music educators continue to produce students who do not listen to recordings of instrumental music, attend live performances of instrumental music, or have any interest in or respect for instrumental music. Sad.
Producing adults who appreciate and respect instrumental music and, as a result, are much more likely to support instrumental music education, should be a very high priority, if not the highest priority, for instrumental music educators. The vast majority of adults in the U.S. believe there is no value in playing a musical instrument. They believe any idiot can play a clarinet or viola and that it requires no ability. This needs to change, otherwise instrumental music education is in jeopardy.
Music educators dislike this video because it points out the fact that music educators are at least partially, if not primarily, responsible for the state of music education today. This video reduces the ability of music educators to blame everyone else.
People I have encountered from Europe have an enormous amount of appreciation for instrumental music, yet they all tell me there are no school music ensembles in their countries, but they were taught music appreciation. It is very ironic that we have school music ensembles here in the U.S. where students are not taught appreciation for music, and that there seem to be few, if any, school music ensembles in Europe and yet students are taught music appreciation and thus are appreciative of music.
It's fairly obvious from this video that you have an axe to grind with a portion of music educators (or as you call them 'competitors'). What empirical data do you base these scathing generalizations on? Where has your research been published - even if not in a scholarly journal or trade publication, where can we find it online? Until you back up your sweeping generalizations with facts, this overly-morose diatribe will ring hollow and superficial.
@cmeals42 I have eyes, I have ears, I have a brain, and I have over thirty years of first-hand personal experience with instrumental music education in public schools. I feel sorry for weak-minded people who are incapable of forming any opinions without "research" or "empirical data" telling them how and what to think. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." I personally believe there is an agenda behind most studies and statistics.
@moderndaywarriorAZ - with all due respect - you make global, sweeping declarations in your video. Given your thirty years of experience, I have no doubt that you can make a judgement of the programs you have come into contact with or observed - but even if you are a nationally renowned clinician with an unlimited budget and access you may only be able to gather enough data with your ears and your eyes to evaluate small percentage of the programs in the country. "Data" helps fill in those gaps.
@cmeals42 I suppose that you wouldn't believe that most people driving on the road are exceeding the speed limit unless you saw "research" or "empirical data" telling you that was the case. I guess that you wouldn't believe that most people in the U.S are less than seven feet tall unless you saw "research" or "empirical data" telling you that was the case. I guess you are incapable of forming opinions using your own eyes, ears, and brain. Well, I'm not.
@moderndaywarriorAZ - your example is partially true. I simply, by the laws of logic, could not evaluate whether people outside of my experience are exceeding the speed limit with any accuracy. I can say with veracity that many I have observed are, but that represents possibly .01% of the available drivers in the country. What the laws of logic do allow me to say, however, is that, "Based on my experiences, I would guess that many people exceed the speed limit." Anything beyond that is false.
@moderndaywarriorAZ - I get it, though. You're upset. That much we can agree on. The question I pose is this: Is pronouncing the "end of the world" (with regards to music education) going to save something you're obvious passionate about? Why not take it upon yourself, with your long history in music education, to help reform it from within? Make your program, or the program you work with, a model of what *you* value in music ed. Be the beacon on the hill for others. It's better for everyone.
WE (ones who still care about music) need to speak up a little louder and stand up for not just music but the arts in general and stop blaming everybody else. We need to educate the ones who know nothing about the arts and its benefits. The more WE speak, the more WE teach, the more action WE take, the more appreciation non-musicians will have.
They stop caring when more emphasis is put on sports more than anything else. Only the most passionate students continue music study in college. My cousin wanted to play the trumpet and be in band but when he asked his mom, she ignored him. After a while, he lost interest and felt that it must not be important. Kids like him grow up to either outright dislike music education or they just don't support it. . I'm sorry for your experience but it's definitely not the case everywhere.
There are thousands of excellent band teachers that do their jobs but students don't care because the SCHOOL takes kids out of band to do standardized tests. Students don't care because their parents discourage them from pursing music whether in school or especially for higher learning. Students stop caring when everyone else communicates that music isn't important. Students stop caring when people tell them that they will starve if they choose music.
@moseaic13 I agree that there is a common belief in this country that music isn't important. That is why it is more important than ever that music educators teach respect and appreciation for music to their students. I have not encountered one music educator who teaches students WHY to play a musical instrument. They only care about teaching students HOW to play musical instruments and impressing others with their ability to do so. Music educators need to produce adults who support school music.
@moderndaywarriorAZ You may have not encountered a music teacher that teaches and encourages music appreciation but almost all the music educators I've encountered do. You have to be careful not to make such generalizations because my educators encouraged not only an appreciation but a passion for music.
@moseaic13 For many, many years, music educators have been, and still are, in a position to positively influence thousands and thousands of students. But, instead of teaching respect and appreciation for instrumental music to their students so that those students will later support instrumental music education as adults, instrumental music educators only teach students HOW to play musical instruments because the educators themselves personally and directly benefit from that.
@moderndaywarriorAZ There are MANY MANY teachers that positively influence thousands of students to support music as adults. You're assuming that all music educators are the same and are selfish, which is not fair. Although there are some who do fit this description it isn't fair to say that ALL music educators are like this. Have you ever thought of becoming a music educator so you can have more insight and positive influence in this area?
I disagree. Students don't care because many of their peers, parents, and many others don't support them or encourage them. Many teachers get absorbed in competitions because that's the way that's one of the only ways they can prove to non-musicians the value music has. Since sports take more precedence, music educators sometimes have to adopt the same mentality of winning trophies to justify why music is in school.
I don't know where the author of this video gets their information. It is certainly interesting but not remotely the experience we have in our district. In fact, completely the opposite. My child's band teacher takes the students to performances of *other* musicians. Winning a performance would be fun, but that is not why they participate in ensembles. In our schools, music is appreciated; our band teachers are highly dedicated and respected. They would find this sad. Perhaps we're "the few".
I think this is a load of bullcrap. Check your sources. If it's that bad where you live, I feel sorry for you. I hope your outlook changes soon. If you're somewhat of an advocate for music education, you would be posting videos on how music education benefits this nation, not whatever personal issues you may have come across thru experience.
@johnny52013 The "personal issues" I have come across through 30 years of experience are that instrumental music in the U.S. is dead and instrumental music education is dying and that, instead of trying to save instrumental music education and instrumental music, music educators spend all of their available class time teaching students how to play music and none of their class time teaching students WHY to play instrumental music or WHY to listen to instrumental music. How very sad.
Most, if not all, music "educators" blame school boards and superintendents for the cutting of school music programs. The simple fact is that school administrators would be incapable of cutting school music programs if there were enough people demanding school music programs for their children. Very few people support school music programs even though there are large numbers of adults who participated in school music programs. It is lazy and simple-minded to blame school administrators.
In the latest issue of Music for All there is an article about how directors use competition as a tool for growth. Band directors are obsessed with competition because of their out of control egos and they justify competition by saying things like it contributes to student growth. In fact, music competition has killed instrumental music in this country and is killing instrumental music education. Music competition does not teach respect and appreciation for music and so the students have none.
Personally I think playing music regularly aside from the churches & senior homes our band performed help to reduce my daily stress level.
I'm into web-design as professional credential & hobby. I posted a few minute-long videos on Youtube with keyboard & violin playing. Eventually I'm going to incorporate videos into my web-pages to give them more visual impact. Always think of myself as a creative person. There are work places and situations where creative solutions would be helpful...
The book: "Music Makes Your Child Smarter" by Philip Sheppard who suggested music improves logical thinking, problem-solving & social skills (kids play together).
Not every parent would consider music education as part of the curriculum. Kids get into sports, art classes, even a few foreign languages. Some parents who like Classical music but never played an instrument would get their kids into music.
Of course many parents would want the best for their kids and their kids to get ahead.
A PBS documentary: "Need to Know: In Chicago, Music for the People" featured The People's Music School. Free program started by a lady from the Dominican Republic. Disgusting people had to camp out before enrollment day to get a spot.
In the movie: "Music in the Heart" featured the real life story of NYC teacher Roberta Gaspare she had to do private fundraising to keep her music program alive.
In the age of budget cuts, gov't need to justify spending your tax dollars.
We are talking "common sense". Washington talks "dollar & cents". Music education may be out of public funding but not gone. A music store down the road with Yamaha-certified teachers is doing very well. A salesman was in my class playing cello. Parents who are willing to pay still enroll kids to a music program (Yamaha, Suzuki, etc.). Like you're paying for after-school tutoring at a learning center.
Your tax $ needs to pay the deficit first. Welcome free-enterprise...
@thepianoplayer416 I'm very happy that a music store down the road from you is doing very well. However, in my part of the country, if music is not taught in the public schools, it will completely disappear. Of course we are facing difficult budget problems right now and, as someone who has been self-employed for 20 years, I know what the hell the free enterprise system is. Anyone who thinks instrumental music will survive outside of the public education system in today's culture is insane.
@thepianoplayer416 Even in difficult economic times people will still buy coffee at Starbucks and spend money on cigarettes. People will support things they care about and will not support things they don't care about. The problem is that few people care about music education even though there are enormous numbers of people who participated in music education. The problem isn't funding. The problem is nobody cars about music education. If people cared, funding would happen.
that the students always give their all. And by teaching the students to strive for excellence, they will always feel accomplished with whatever score, place, or trophy they receive, they are happy. There is a great video here on YouTube titled "Why Music Matters", by Jack Stamp. I suggest watching that video. To be a musician, we must learn and understand to always strive for perfection in ourselves and in one another.
@gomerpowell03 As I said earlier, I believe students can learn the value of striving for perfection or feel accomplished by playing football or playing golf, or by completing an English or math assignment. There are many places that a student can feel accomplished, learn to give their all, and learn to strive for perfection. There are very few places that a student can learn respect and appreciation for music. If students do not appreciate music, they will not support music education as adults.
should first TEACH the students how to play music. Through the years of TEACHING music, the students will become more aware of musics important role for society. We as educators should always place the kids on a path so they can feel successful. We push them to always strive for excellence. I don't believe that the underlying goal for programs is to chase trophies, but to give the students a goal so that they may strive to reach it. In the end, the ultimate goal for us educators should be
@gomerpowell03 I believe that most, if not all, students in school music programs are taught to strive for excellence. There is nothing wrong with that. However, students can learn the value of striving for excellence by playing chess, playing baseball, or studying algebra or biology. School music students should also be taught to respect and appreciate music, in addition to striving for excellence on their instruments. They should be taught WHY to play music and not just how to play music.
Music isn't music anymore. This is after years of playing music and going through the program for music education at university, and becoming a music educator myself. There is also a documentary titled "Before the Music Dies". If you haven't watched this video, I highly recommend watching it. I agree with what you're saying to a certain degree. Yes, the care and compassion for the well-being of music students should be our first priority. We as educators and supporters for music in school
@gomerpowell03 I do believe that most, if not all, music educators care for the personal well being of their students. I just wish more music educators cared as much about the MUSICAL well-being of their students. I don't believe that the average adult who was in a school music program is any more likely to play a musical instrument, listen to live or recorded instrumental music, or encourage their own children to play musical instruments than the adult who was not in a school music program.
Here's my take on why music education is headed toward "extinction". We all know that everyone listens to music on the radio each and every day. People prefer a certain genre. This may cause some to lash out, but why not point the finger toward the music industry? Here's what I mean. Today's music isn't about music at all. Some will disagree, but let me clarify. How many artists in the business use more than an electronic beat generated from a computer and auto sing lyrics?
@gomerpowell03 Yes. I agree with you that most popular music today is nauseating and hideous and would not have even been considered music a couple decades ago. I point the finger at the listeners. If people refused to listen to this crap, it wouldn't exist. The thing that bothers me most is that school band and orchestra students listen to the exact same crap. Musically speaking, the average adult who was in a school music program is no different than the adult who wasn't.
I recently learned that the only radio station in town that played instrumental music has changed its format to popular vocal music. Now there is absolutely no instrumental music on the radio, or on television, and live performances of instrumental music are extremely rare and very, very poorly attended, even though there is an enormous number of adults in town who played instrumental music in school. Instrumental music in our country is dying and selfish music "educators" do not care at all.
It's not the Music Educators that you have to convince. It's the Administration, and in most cases winning trophies and plaques is the only way to convince them that a Music Program is Valuable. I do agree that the great composers and musicians need to be included into the Music Programs curriculum, that is a good point. Frank Battisti said in a video on here "We need to make band programs into Music Education programs." This is very true, but i'm unsure if it'll promote advocacy.
@benjaminsurber Administrators will be convinced only when there are enormous numbers of people supporting and demanding music education. The problem is a very small number of adults support music education, even though a large number of adults were in the music education system. Also, I believe that few, if any, band or orchestra students are taught about music advocacy. Music educators are too busy chasing their trophies to waste time teaching music advocacy or appreciation to their students.
@moderndaywarriorAZ I just don't find it very comfortable for you to bash every Music Educator, especially since I'm going to be one in a few years. I just want to make it clear that it's not all the Music Educator's fault.
@benjaminsurber Please tell me when I ever used the phrases "every music educator" or "all music educators". You can't because I never have. However, I do believe the sad state of music education is primarily the fault of music educators. It's interesting how the people who strongly disagree with me seem to be either just out of college or still in college. I probably would have reacted the same way when I was in college 20 years ago.
@benjaminsurber When you become a music educator, I hope you will be different from your peers and care about what your students learn and not just about how well they perform. I hope you will be different and will not be obsessed with winning trophies and plaques at school music competitions. I hope you will be different and actually produce adults that respect and appreciate instrumental music and, as a result, strongly support instrumental music education. I hope you are different than most.
@moderndaywarriorAZ My friend, you imply that all music educators are the reason, and if you have gotten more than one response like this then it is obvious that i'm not the only one to think so. Also, what difference does it make that i'm still in college. I feel stronger for music than most tenured professors. It is also my theory that if you are a successful music educator that the trophies and plaques will come, without the educator being obsessed with that goal. I've seen this work.
@benjaminsurber I have never said or implied the phrase "all music educators" You are mistaken. The fact that you are in college just means you have many learning experiences ahead of you. Lots of things can be learned in college but there is no substitute for real world experience. I challenge you to find one person who's view of his profession hasn't changed at all after being out of college for ten or twenty years.
@benjaminsurber I don't doubt that you feel stronger for music than most of your professors. There is more than one definition of a successful music educator. In my opinion, the music educator who's ensembles have won lots of competitions but who's students have no idea who John P. Sousa, Louis Armstrong or Leonard Bernstein is, do not listen to any instrumental music, and have no respect or appreciation for instrumental music, is a huge failure. That music educator is killing music education.
@benjaminsurber I strongly believe that people who respect and appreciate instrumental music are far, far more likely to support instrumental music education. People who do not respect and appreciate instrumental music will never,ever, ever support instrumental music education. The average adult who was in band or orchestra in school has no more respect or appreciation for instrumental music than the adult who was not in band or orchestra. Music education is killing itself.
Over 20 years ago I went through a publicly funded school system with a band and an orchestra. Definitely think it is important to keep music education in school.
When it comes to funding, i don't know you can offload the cost to the parents making them pay to enroll their kids in a program. Music education may not be heading for extinction, only that it is accessible to those in private schools or parents willing and able to pay for lessons...
@thepianoplayer416 Very, very few private schools have instrumental music programs and the number of parents willing and able to pay for lessons is very small and getting smaller. Most parents in the United States believe playing a musical instrument is no more demanding or intellectually beneficial to a middle-school or high school student than washing dishes or playing tic-tac-toe.
@moderndaywarriorAZ It is hard to justify funding any after-school program with gov'ts in deficit. The focus: Reading, Writing & Arithmetic. Kids need education that will get them jobs. Research have shown there are benefits of listening to music (Mozart effect). Buying a music CD doesn't cost much. But teachers salaries, buying & maintaining instruments are harder to justify unless you can convince administrators kids get higher IQ scores and will be more competitive in the workforce later.
@thepianoplayer416 Some people believe music programs are worth the cost. They believe that educating children in the arts will produce quality adults who see beauty in the world and who aren't completely shallow, self-obsessed, materialistic, heartless and, angry, like most people in our country seem to be. Some people believe that educating students in the arts will make our country a better place. Most people are far too simple-minded and short-sighted to see the benefits of arts education.
My next question then, in your 26 years of experience are you speaking as a parent, administrator, music teacher? I have been a teacher for 21 years, I cannot speak for everyone else, only for myself. My experiences as a music teacher have been very discouraging. Not because of my students but because district administrators say one thing and then do another. They say they support music then cut the program during budget problems. Then you blame teachers. System fail
My next question then, in your 26 years of experience are you speaking as a parent, administrator, music teacher? I have been a teacher for 21 years, I cannot speak for everyone else, only for myself. My experiences as a music teacher have been very discouraging. Not because of my students but because district administrators say one thing and then do another. They say they support music then cut the program during budget problems. Then you blame teachers.
@TheRubyjean9 I believe the ultimate problem is that the music education system is not producing adults that support music education. If all, or even most, of the adults in this country right now who were in band or orchestra in school actively supported music education, it would be much more difficult, if not impossible, for administrators to cut programs. Few music educators are instilling any respect or appreciation for music in their students. When those students grow up, they don't care.
@TheRubyjean9 I am speaking as someone who was a student in the music education system from grade school through college and as an assistant band director/instructor. I also have many good friends who are band directors. I agree with you about administrators. None of them have the balls say what they really think. They say what is politically correct and then do the opposite and cut music programs. But, people like school board members are elected. The public ultimately has the power.
My next question then, in then, in your 26 years of experience are you speaking as a parent, administrator, music teacher? I have been a teacher for 21 years, I cannot speak for everyone else, only for myself. My experiences as a music teacher have been very discouraging. Not because of my students but because district administrators say one thing and then do another. They say they support music then cut the program during budget problems. Then you blame teachers.
I recently attended a high school jazz festival. It's amazing how these festivals create the illusion that jazz is alive and well in the United States. The sad fact is that few, if any of the students at the festival appreciate or respect jazz. Most, if not all, of them will quit playing their instruments as soon as they leave high school and will never play jazz, listen to recordings of jazz, or attend live performances of jazz again for the rest of their lives. And, their directors don't care.
I would like to discuss with you why you think it is music teachers' fault for the"demise" of music education? How do you know directors don't care? Have you asked them? I agree with you to a point. SOME music teachers do indeed think it's all about the competition. Some compete to maintain their programs. Some compete because they think their students will benefit. You are, in your video, generalizing all music teachers. Your generalization is inaccurate.
I would like to discuss with you why you think it is music teachers' fault for the"demise" of music education? How do you know directors don't care? Have you asked them? I agree with you to a point. SOME music teachers do indeed think it's all about the competition. Some compete to maintain their programs. Some compete because they think their students will benefit. You are, in your video, generalizing all music teachers. Your generalization is inaccurate. Careful!
@TheRubyjean9 Thank you for your response. I do not believe that the music education system is producing adults that support music education. My opinions are based on 26 years of first-hand personal experience with the music education system. At no point in my video do I use the phrase "all music educators". But, I do believe most music educators are concerned about how their students perform and not about what they learn. Then, as adults, those students do not support music education.
Wow - This is the most useless, self serving video i have ever seen in my life. You REALLY need to do your research and include your sources from places other than you posterior. Cranial / Rectal inversion is my diagnosis!
@Drillking01 My goal with this video was to expose flaws in the music education system that are leading to the demise of music education. How do you explain the fact that there is an enormous number of adults in the United States right now that were in band or orchestra in school yet there is very little support for music education? Do you even care about music education? If not, why are you even watching this video?
@moderndaywarriorAZ - I am a music teacher and must be in the minority - I do have the support as do the districts around us. I have an average of 5-6 students accepted into colleges as music majors. I have alumni return to help and to teach. Things have been going well until last Monday the School board played YOUR Video Monday night in front of a standing room only crowd.
I want to thank you personally for your help in the support of music . YOU SHOULD FEEL REALLY GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF.
@Drillking01 School boards are not destroying music education. Short-sighted and narrow-minded music educators who do not even try to teach music appreciation to their students are destroying music education. If the music education system produced adults who respected and appreciated instrumental music as well as instrumental music education, music education would not be in such big trouble. Don't shoot the messenger.
@moderndaywarriorAZ - by repeating something over and over again does not make it true. If it did, you would think we has a functional president in the white house. I'm not shooting the messenger but rather the message. You are implying school board directors / superintendent does NOTHING to hurt music education. They do NOTHING towards implementation of school improvement plans or curriuculum design/requirements. IAm I really missing something? So - Music educators are evil. Ok - got it!
@Drillking01 I do not believe that music educators are evil. They are just unaware of the fact that they are not producing adults who respect and appreciate instrumental music or support music education. The reason I say that school boards do not destroy music education is because if there was enough public support for music education, and more outrage when programs are cut, few if any music programs would be cut. School board members are ELECTED! The public ultimately has the power.
@moderndaywarriorAZ -- "The reason I say that school boards do not destroy music education is because if there was enough public support for music education, and more outrage when programs are cut, few if any music programs would be cut."
Well, that's a naive statement. I've been in places where the reasons budgets are cut are due to:
1. Inflexable teacher's unions
2. Funding cuts where the choice is cutting the Arts or Core Curriculum.
No, I am not a college student. I have been out there teaching for a number of years.
School Board Officials have to look at the bigger picture. You can't have Core curriculum courses cut when those are looked upon as "important" nationally. Music is important, but our job is to educate not only the students, but the public as well. Better results have been generated by educating the public and this has saved programs all over the US. (More to come)
@pennjazz I agree that the job of the music educator is to "educate not only the students, but the public as well." Unfortunately every music educator I have met seems to think their job is to teach students how to play musical instruments. That's it. They don't even try to teach their students appreciation for instrumental music, or the people who have dedicated their lives to playing, composing, or teaching it. When those students grow up, they don't support music education and music dies.
No, I am not a college student. I have been out there teaching for a number of years.
School Board Officials have to look at the bigger picture. You can't have Core curriculum courses cut when those are looked upon as "important" nationally. Music is important, but our job is to educate not only the students, but the public as well. Better results have been generated by educating the public and this has saved programs all over the US. (More to come)
@pennjazz I do agree that Inflexable teacher's unions are a problem. However, I believe the major problem music education faces is lack of support. The reason music classes are not considered core classes is because very few people believe they should be. If enough people believed music classes should be considered core classes, music classes would be considered core classes. The reason math and science are core classes is because most people think they should be. The majority rules.
I really don't mind. It seems like you've been scorned by your teacher so I don't mind trying to make it up. I'll even give you a big hug when you get here....
Oh and all I ask in return is a trophy showing how awesome I am personally.
@Munkieturdz I actually haven't been scorned by a teacher at all. I was taught by some very good very well-intentioned teachers. It's just that instrumental music educators believe that their job ends after teaching students how to play musical instruments. Unfortunately students do not automatically learn respect and appreciation for music by simply learning to play an instrument. When those students become adults, they don't support music or music education. I want band around for my kids.
Why would anyone want to get a bachelor's degree, even a master's degree, put in the time and the work and the money just to get paid $40,000 a year. Oh yeah. I remember. It's the trophies...
@Munkieturdz And I'm not sure but perhaps, just perhaps, administrators don't care if students know who Bernstein was and if they listen to jazz regularly. Maybe they are judging the entire quality of the music program by how many trophies they win. So maybe the teacher did his or her best with the amount of support they were given.
@Munkieturdz I agree that school administrators are far to ignorant to judge the success of music programs any other way than to look at how competitively successful the music programs are. But, if music educators don't start caring about something other than trophies, music education will die. Music education is teaching students that the only reason to play an instrument is to win competitions. When those students become adults, they see no value in playing a musical instrument.
@Munkieturdz Where are your facts and statistics that contradict or disprove the claims in this video? You must have some if you are so sure that these are wrong.
@Munkieturdz This world is full of too many people who are too weak-minded to come to any conclusions without statistics or studies to tell them what to think.
Oh and the spelling thing bothered me too. It's not that I have nothing to argue about, it's just why try to have an intelligent conversation with someone who has trouble with fifth grade spelling...
@Munkieturdz I didn't make this video to impress you or anyone else with my spelling capability. I don't care what you or anyone else thinks of me. I do care that music education is dying and that music educators are blaming everyone else for it. There's an enormous number of adults in the United States right now that were in band or orchestra in school. I don't know exactly how many and neither do you. The question is, where are they? Why aren't they supporting music education? That's my point.
@Munkieturdz Trophies may not be why people begin teaching band or orchestra, but it is amazing to see the transformation that takes place after a music educator has been teaching for a few years, particularly high school music educators. They become obsessed with "winning". I have seen music "educators" throw tantrums because they did not receive the score or placement they felt their ensemble deserved at a music competition.
Hey - how is spell check working for you? and simple FACT and Source check.....just saying - Opinions are one thing but out and out slander is another thing. Thanks for the support and helping the cause. It really helps all of us teachers, who actually work and achieve results for a living, lives much easier. Claims of a resume and "personal experiences" sure does sound like sour grapes on all sorts of levels. But this is a free country and you do have a right to complain and whine. Thank you
@Drillking01 I have no doubt that there are some music educators that are working hard and achieving results. But, there are simply not enough of them. They are in the minority. I would love to see music education flourish and grow. The problem is that the music education system does not produce adults that respect and appreciate music or that appreciate and support music education. It's funny how people criticize someone's spelling when they run out of meaningful thoughts to respond with.
@moderndaywarriorAZ Why would anyone want to get a bachelor's degree, or even a master's, put in the work and time and money, to end up with a $35,000 salary. Oh and the trophies, don't forget the trophies.
I think you have a good point, if music is not taught for the general benefit first and competition (a distant) fourth it will only go one way.
I think it isn't as bad as you suggest and worse. The main problem as I see it is a kind of "mystery cult" surrounding music and its meaning in musicology which resists attempts to speak directly to what music IS and is for.
Until we as musician say NO! Music has meaning and concrete enumerable function we will never be taken serious as a discipline.
I feel that some of reason why competition and ego and stuff like that is so prevalent in the music classroom today is because the higher-ups in the schools expect the band to have something to show for their work. But they fail to recognize the fact that music isn't a sport- we're not going to get a trophy for playing a symphony the whole way through or anything. Because of the unrealistic demands of the administrators, music teachers seem to roll over and give up, and so music programs suffer.
@hobone38 Thank you for your comment. I do agree that pressure from administrators to be competitively successful may be one reason that music educators are so competitive. But, I still believe that the pressure music educators feel to be competitively successful is primarily self-imposed. It is primarily ego-driven. I also believe that most school administrators don't care at all if their school's music ensembles are competitively successful or if they even exist.
@hobone38 Several years ago a band came to my town for a competition. One of the staff members told me that their band program had been completely cut. The band was entirely self-funded, like a drum and bugle corps. This band has won the BOA Championship more than once. This marching band is one of the most competitively successful bands in the country and the school administration did not care at all. I don't believe any superintendent has ever said "Let's keep the band. They got first place!"
I have every right to voice my thoughts just as you do. My generalizations are based on 29 years of first-hand personal experience with the music education system. If "shaming" music educators won't make them do a better job, then what will? If music educators don't start doing a much better job, music education will die. Music education will not be saved by music educators whining, complaining, and blaming everyone else. If you post another comment, please make it one of substance.
It is asinine to generalize music educators as you do in this piece. If you are looking to shame educators into doing a better job, then who the hell are you? Otherwise, this is pointless dribble.
I never said all music educators were bad. I knew I would make some people angry with this video but that is not my goal. My goal is to see music education thrive for many many more years. Of course there are some very good music educators. I might have reacted the same way when I was your age. But, my personal experiences over the last 25 years have made me realize that music education is not at all what it claims to be and what I thought it was.
Not saying I don't agree with some parts of your video however. Something else I also thought of. Kids are offered many more choices in electives to take than their parents were offered when they were in school.
I agree with your point that kids have many more activities to choose from today. This is why it is more important than ever for music educators to instill respect and appreciation for music in their students. If parents who were involved in music in school don't encourage their own kids to do the same, music education will be in serious trouble, and it is. Kids see sports on television 24 hours a day. Parents are allowing the television to choose their children's interests.
Music education is dying because of the focus on standardized testing in America. Everybody is suddenly only worried about the core subject areas. Parents don't want their children to waste time on music. They don't see it helping them get into college. I have to pound into my students heads everyday that music can help you get into college and beyond. There's no time for creativity anymore. That's the problem.
I agree that there is a big focus on standardized testing. But, the simple fact is that people support things they care about and they don't support things they don't care about. I believe some of parents that think music is a waste of time were themselves in band or orchestra in school. That is the problem. I can understand if a parent who played football in high school thinks music is a waste of time. But, if adults who played music in school don't care about music in school, who will?
Did you conduct a survey or are you making all this stuff up? where's the data? I bet every person in a top ranking competitive marching band in high school or college knows who Duke Ellington is... but then again, I would have to actually research that.
@drawn2511 No. As I have stated previously, I did not conduct a survey and I do not have any statistics. My theory is based over 25 years as a musician and a music instructor/teacher. Whether people know who Duke Ellington is or not is a minor point. My point is that students in school music programs learn absolutely no respect and appreciation for music. As a result, they do not support music education when they become adults. This is why music education is in serious trouble.
@drawn2511 I also believe there are far too many weak-minded people in the world who are incapable of forming an opinion or reaching a conclusion without a study or some statistics telling them what to think. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli. Does anyone doubt that there are thousands of adults alive in the U.S. who were in band or orchestra in school? And yet, our orchestra halls are empty and our jazz clubs die within weeks of opening.
For 20 years, I have been quietly teaching orchestra without all the hoopla of festivals and competitions. It's about making sure kids get exposure to the best examples of music whether it be classical, jazz or rock. I teach them to love music and how to experience it after they have long graduated from public school programs. In the ideal world, all adults would be amateur musicians/composers playing in community orchestras, chamber groups or bands. This is how music can thrive.
I'm very sorry if you've had a bad experience with a music educator. But there are MANY wonderful teachers out there. It is such a difficult career. The government cuts spending to schools and for whatever reason music is first on the chopping block. I'm a performance major at college, and colleges aren't exactly kind to music education majors. So they either sink or swim. You can't just blame the teachers. Those of us who love music need to help create awareness of its' importance.
I realize there are many great teachers in music education and I am very aware of how difficult it is. The problem is that few music educators are helping to create an awareness of music's importance. The vast majority of them teachstudents to play musical instruments only for the purpose of winning competitions and improving their own egos and reputations. As a result, their students do not learn any respect or appreciation for music and do not support music education when they become adults.
I can understand the point that music appreciation is something that can be learned, but competition in music is a part of the real world.
When speaking about competing, don't you think it is a competition to get into the New York Philharmonic? They are the best musicians in the world and they get in by competing with other musicians. They don't get in because they appreciate the music.
There is nothing wrong with music competition. The problem is that music educators are obsessed with it to the point that they act as their only purpose as music "educators" is to win competitions. As a result, students in school band and orchestra programs learn that the only reason to play a musical instrument is to beat someone else at a competition. Students can learn about competition almost anywhere. There are precious few places they can learn appreciation for music.
As a future music educator, I take offense to much of what you have said. Being in band helped me grow as a person. While my first band director was exactly what you described, my second band director actually taught us to appreciate music. He taught us all the great composers of classical, jazz, contemporary, etc. I can't tell you how many of his students have gone on to major in music ed because he instilled that love of music in all of us and I only had him for one year! Not all are bad...
Yes. There are many non-musical benefits to being in band or orchestra. But, shouldn't there be some musical ones as well? Jazz and classical music in the United States are completely dead outside of government funded institutions. This is because students learn absolutely no respect or appreciation for music as members of school bands or orchestras. Unfortunately most music educators are too busy chasing their trophies to teach respect or appreciation for music to their students.
There is nothing wrong with Rock or types of popular music. I listen to them myself. Pop music and Rock or Metal are not dying a miserable death. Jazz and Classical music are. And, there are thousands of music educators in this country being paid millions of dollars to teach jazz and classical music to their students. So, the fact that Jazz and Classical music are still dying means that those thousands of music educators are not doing their jobs. They are wasting money and music is dying.
what you said may be true for a lot of cases, but do you have any statistics? numbers? examples? im not totally disagreeing with you here, but it's hard to convince people when all your arguments are general ideas.
No. I do not have any statistics or numbers. I just have my theory. But, as of yet, no one has significantly challenged my theory and I do not need statistics or studies to tell me what is very obvious. Do you doubt that there are thousands of adults alive in the United States right now that were in band or orchestra in school or that these thousands of former band and orchestra students do not now support music education? If they did support it, music education would not be dying.
Always interesting to listen to discussions about music education.
CBC the main radio broadcasting station in Canada used to air mosty Classical music but over the years reduced the Classical segment to just a few hours a day replaced by other popular forms of music.
Children's TV programs tend to promote popular music over something old-fashioned for ad revenue. Parents enroll their kids in private music instructions what they see as discipline.
Uploaded keyboard playing videos.
thepianoplayer416 1 month ago
Ultimately, I would argue that I don't disagree our system of education is the problem - but I don't believe that any music educators in our country are intentionally devaluing music education for the sake of competition - quite the contrary, in fact. My colleagues nationwide are very interested in helping each of our students learn to love music through the challenge of instrumental performance - but the sad fact is our administrators and in many cases, our communities - don't understand it.
Danzona40 1 month ago
@Danzona40 I also do not believe that music educators are INTENTIONALLY devaluing music education for the sake of competition. They just don't realize how bad things are. Instrumental music is almost completely extinct in the U.S. outside of government funded institutions. There is little, if any, interest in instrumental music in the real world, even from former instrumental music students. The problem is that students do not learn to love music by simply playing musical instruments.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 month ago
Thus, it falls to us to encourage kids to make music in the organizations we have, where we are in constant competition with that same mass media that sells the lie that everyone can be a star, and everyone can sing pro, play in the NFL, and get accolades for themselves - when the POINT of making music in a band, orchestra or choir is do do it TOGETHER and do it WELL, so that others will WANT to listen. Would YOU want to attend a concert where most of the kids played like hacks?
Danzona40 1 month ago
@Danzona40 Of course, nobody wants to "attend a concert where most of the kids played like hacks." But, if school music ensembles played slightly less challenging material, which would make some class time available for teaching music appreciation, the students, the parents, and the administrators would NOT know the difference. Only the music educators would know the difference. The problem is that music educators are obsessed with what other music educators think and nothing else.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 month ago
While I can see your point (and great handle, btw, have you always been a Rush fan?) - I would argue simply that there is not a clear way to satisfy the demands of our administrators and keep our jobs, and simultaneously encourage kids to take up instruments and play in a concert band. Kids are bombarded daily by media images of solo rock artists and indie bands, none of whom could describe what a French horn or an oboe is, let alone play one.
Danzona40 1 month ago
@Danzona40 Ahhh...somebody finally noticed the Rush reference. I have heard the "demands of our administrators" argument many, many times. In 30 years of first-hand personal experience with music education, I have never even heard of a music educator losing his position because of poor competitive performance. Even if it has happened, it is an extremely rare occurrence. This argument is just a way for music educators to justify their endless obsession with beating each other.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 month ago
@Danzona40 Yes. I agree. Kids are "bombarded daily by media images of solo rock artists and indie bands". This is why it is more important than ever for instrumental music educators to teach respect and appreciation for instrumental music to their students. Music educators are teaching their students ONLY what they need to know in order to perform well at concerts and festivals. This is why instrumental music outside of schools is dead and instrumental music education is dying.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 month ago
It is fascinating how instrumental music educators are completely uninterested in the state of instrumental music in the real world, outside of their little government-funded fantasy world. Instrumental music in the U.S. essentially only exists in government institutions and because of government funding. There is little, if any, public interest or support for instrumental music in the real world, even from adults who played instrumental music in school bands or orchestras. How very sad.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 month ago
The reality is that as music educators who wish to survive in the modern public education construct, we must perform to the satisfaction of people paid to assess us from a position of ignorance, in many cases. Achievement demonstrates success; non-achievement communicates failure. The person who makes the most difference to a student is the one who can communicate to them the difference between competing for a rating and making great music - and who can teach them how to do both at once.
Danzona40 1 month ago
@Danzona40 It is music "educators" who are judges at festivals who impose such high performance standards on other music "educators" which requires enormous amounts of rehearsal time, leaving no class time to teach appreciation for music to instrumental music students. I still believe the problem is that music educators are obsessed with gaining the admiration of other music educators and teach students how to play music but not WHY to play music in order to gain this admiration.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 month ago
@Danzona40 If "achievement demonstrates success" for music educators, then I suppose an educator's ensembles must score well at music festivals to demonstrate success. But, who are the judges at those festivals? Answer: current and former music educators. So, music educators are forcing each other to spend all of their class time preparing for performances and no class time teaching students music appreciation. Music "educators" are doing it to themselves and music education is dying.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 month ago
The only radio station in the 5th largest city in the U.S. that played instrumental music recently changed its format to all vocal pop music. Instrumental music is steadily disappearing from our society and instrumental music educators continue along in blissful ignorance. Instrumental music educators continue to produce students who do not listen to recordings of instrumental music, attend live performances of instrumental music, or have any interest in or respect for instrumental music. Sad.
moderndaywarriorAZ 3 months ago
Producing adults who appreciate and respect instrumental music and, as a result, are much more likely to support instrumental music education, should be a very high priority, if not the highest priority, for instrumental music educators. The vast majority of adults in the U.S. believe there is no value in playing a musical instrument. They believe any idiot can play a clarinet or viola and that it requires no ability. This needs to change, otherwise instrumental music education is in jeopardy.
moderndaywarriorAZ 3 months ago
Music educators dislike this video because it points out the fact that music educators are at least partially, if not primarily, responsible for the state of music education today. This video reduces the ability of music educators to blame everyone else.
moderndaywarriorAZ 4 months ago
People I have encountered from Europe have an enormous amount of appreciation for instrumental music, yet they all tell me there are no school music ensembles in their countries, but they were taught music appreciation. It is very ironic that we have school music ensembles here in the U.S. where students are not taught appreciation for music, and that there seem to be few, if any, school music ensembles in Europe and yet students are taught music appreciation and thus are appreciative of music.
moderndaywarriorAZ 4 months ago
It's fairly obvious from this video that you have an axe to grind with a portion of music educators (or as you call them 'competitors'). What empirical data do you base these scathing generalizations on? Where has your research been published - even if not in a scholarly journal or trade publication, where can we find it online? Until you back up your sweeping generalizations with facts, this overly-morose diatribe will ring hollow and superficial.
cmeals42 4 months ago
@cmeals42 I have eyes, I have ears, I have a brain, and I have over thirty years of first-hand personal experience with instrumental music education in public schools. I feel sorry for weak-minded people who are incapable of forming any opinions without "research" or "empirical data" telling them how and what to think. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." I personally believe there is an agenda behind most studies and statistics.
moderndaywarriorAZ 4 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ - with all due respect - you make global, sweeping declarations in your video. Given your thirty years of experience, I have no doubt that you can make a judgement of the programs you have come into contact with or observed - but even if you are a nationally renowned clinician with an unlimited budget and access you may only be able to gather enough data with your ears and your eyes to evaluate small percentage of the programs in the country. "Data" helps fill in those gaps.
cmeals42 4 months ago
@cmeals42 I suppose that you wouldn't believe that most people driving on the road are exceeding the speed limit unless you saw "research" or "empirical data" telling you that was the case. I guess that you wouldn't believe that most people in the U.S are less than seven feet tall unless you saw "research" or "empirical data" telling you that was the case. I guess you are incapable of forming opinions using your own eyes, ears, and brain. Well, I'm not.
moderndaywarriorAZ 4 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ - your example is partially true. I simply, by the laws of logic, could not evaluate whether people outside of my experience are exceeding the speed limit with any accuracy. I can say with veracity that many I have observed are, but that represents possibly .01% of the available drivers in the country. What the laws of logic do allow me to say, however, is that, "Based on my experiences, I would guess that many people exceed the speed limit." Anything beyond that is false.
cmeals42 4 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ - I get it, though. You're upset. That much we can agree on. The question I pose is this: Is pronouncing the "end of the world" (with regards to music education) going to save something you're obvious passionate about? Why not take it upon yourself, with your long history in music education, to help reform it from within? Make your program, or the program you work with, a model of what *you* value in music ed. Be the beacon on the hill for others. It's better for everyone.
cmeals42 4 months ago
WE (ones who still care about music) need to speak up a little louder and stand up for not just music but the arts in general and stop blaming everybody else. We need to educate the ones who know nothing about the arts and its benefits. The more WE speak, the more WE teach, the more action WE take, the more appreciation non-musicians will have.
moseaic13 4 months ago
They stop caring when more emphasis is put on sports more than anything else. Only the most passionate students continue music study in college. My cousin wanted to play the trumpet and be in band but when he asked his mom, she ignored him. After a while, he lost interest and felt that it must not be important. Kids like him grow up to either outright dislike music education or they just don't support it. . I'm sorry for your experience but it's definitely not the case everywhere.
moseaic13 4 months ago
There are thousands of excellent band teachers that do their jobs but students don't care because the SCHOOL takes kids out of band to do standardized tests. Students don't care because their parents discourage them from pursing music whether in school or especially for higher learning. Students stop caring when everyone else communicates that music isn't important. Students stop caring when people tell them that they will starve if they choose music.
moseaic13 4 months ago
@moseaic13 I agree that there is a common belief in this country that music isn't important. That is why it is more important than ever that music educators teach respect and appreciation for music to their students. I have not encountered one music educator who teaches students WHY to play a musical instrument. They only care about teaching students HOW to play musical instruments and impressing others with their ability to do so. Music educators need to produce adults who support school music.
moderndaywarriorAZ 4 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ You may have not encountered a music teacher that teaches and encourages music appreciation but almost all the music educators I've encountered do. You have to be careful not to make such generalizations because my educators encouraged not only an appreciation but a passion for music.
moseaic13 4 months ago
@moseaic13 For many, many years, music educators have been, and still are, in a position to positively influence thousands and thousands of students. But, instead of teaching respect and appreciation for instrumental music to their students so that those students will later support instrumental music education as adults, instrumental music educators only teach students HOW to play musical instruments because the educators themselves personally and directly benefit from that.
moderndaywarriorAZ 4 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ There are MANY MANY teachers that positively influence thousands of students to support music as adults. You're assuming that all music educators are the same and are selfish, which is not fair. Although there are some who do fit this description it isn't fair to say that ALL music educators are like this. Have you ever thought of becoming a music educator so you can have more insight and positive influence in this area?
moseaic13 4 months ago
I disagree. Students don't care because many of their peers, parents, and many others don't support them or encourage them. Many teachers get absorbed in competitions because that's the way that's one of the only ways they can prove to non-musicians the value music has. Since sports take more precedence, music educators sometimes have to adopt the same mentality of winning trophies to justify why music is in school.
moseaic13 4 months ago
I don't know where the author of this video gets their information. It is certainly interesting but not remotely the experience we have in our district. In fact, completely the opposite. My child's band teacher takes the students to performances of *other* musicians. Winning a performance would be fun, but that is not why they participate in ensembles. In our schools, music is appreciated; our band teachers are highly dedicated and respected. They would find this sad. Perhaps we're "the few".
Except4fish 4 months ago
I think this is a load of bullcrap. Check your sources. If it's that bad where you live, I feel sorry for you. I hope your outlook changes soon. If you're somewhat of an advocate for music education, you would be posting videos on how music education benefits this nation, not whatever personal issues you may have come across thru experience.
johnny52013 5 months ago 4
@johnny52013 Could not agree more. This video is a dramatic, overly-morose and twisted view of music education as it is today.
apachedann1 4 months ago
@apachedann1 I don't know where you live, but this video portrays a very accurate view of music education in my part of the country.
moderndaywarriorAZ 4 months ago
@johnny52013 The "personal issues" I have come across through 30 years of experience are that instrumental music in the U.S. is dead and instrumental music education is dying and that, instead of trying to save instrumental music education and instrumental music, music educators spend all of their available class time teaching students how to play music and none of their class time teaching students WHY to play instrumental music or WHY to listen to instrumental music. How very sad.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 month ago
Most, if not all, music "educators" blame school boards and superintendents for the cutting of school music programs. The simple fact is that school administrators would be incapable of cutting school music programs if there were enough people demanding school music programs for their children. Very few people support school music programs even though there are large numbers of adults who participated in school music programs. It is lazy and simple-minded to blame school administrators.
moderndaywarriorAZ 5 months ago
In the latest issue of Music for All there is an article about how directors use competition as a tool for growth. Band directors are obsessed with competition because of their out of control egos and they justify competition by saying things like it contributes to student growth. In fact, music competition has killed instrumental music in this country and is killing instrumental music education. Music competition does not teach respect and appreciation for music and so the students have none.
moderndaywarriorAZ 5 months ago
Personally I think playing music regularly aside from the churches & senior homes our band performed help to reduce my daily stress level.
I'm into web-design as professional credential & hobby. I posted a few minute-long videos on Youtube with keyboard & violin playing. Eventually I'm going to incorporate videos into my web-pages to give them more visual impact. Always think of myself as a creative person. There are work places and situations where creative solutions would be helpful...
thepianoplayer416 6 months ago
The book: "Music Makes Your Child Smarter" by Philip Sheppard who suggested music improves logical thinking, problem-solving & social skills (kids play together).
Not every parent would consider music education as part of the curriculum. Kids get into sports, art classes, even a few foreign languages. Some parents who like Classical music but never played an instrument would get their kids into music.
Of course many parents would want the best for their kids and their kids to get ahead.
thepianoplayer416 6 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ
A PBS documentary: "Need to Know: In Chicago, Music for the People" featured The People's Music School. Free program started by a lady from the Dominican Republic. Disgusting people had to camp out before enrollment day to get a spot.
In the movie: "Music in the Heart" featured the real life story of NYC teacher Roberta Gaspare she had to do private fundraising to keep her music program alive.
In the age of budget cuts, gov't need to justify spending your tax dollars.
thepianoplayer416 6 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ
We are talking "common sense". Washington talks "dollar & cents". Music education may be out of public funding but not gone. A music store down the road with Yamaha-certified teachers is doing very well. A salesman was in my class playing cello. Parents who are willing to pay still enroll kids to a music program (Yamaha, Suzuki, etc.). Like you're paying for after-school tutoring at a learning center.
Your tax $ needs to pay the deficit first. Welcome free-enterprise...
thepianoplayer416 6 months ago
@thepianoplayer416 I'm very happy that a music store down the road from you is doing very well. However, in my part of the country, if music is not taught in the public schools, it will completely disappear. Of course we are facing difficult budget problems right now and, as someone who has been self-employed for 20 years, I know what the hell the free enterprise system is. Anyone who thinks instrumental music will survive outside of the public education system in today's culture is insane.
moderndaywarriorAZ 6 months ago
@thepianoplayer416 Even in difficult economic times people will still buy coffee at Starbucks and spend money on cigarettes. People will support things they care about and will not support things they don't care about. The problem is that few people care about music education even though there are enormous numbers of people who participated in music education. The problem isn't funding. The problem is nobody cars about music education. If people cared, funding would happen.
moderndaywarriorAZ 6 months ago
that the students always give their all. And by teaching the students to strive for excellence, they will always feel accomplished with whatever score, place, or trophy they receive, they are happy. There is a great video here on YouTube titled "Why Music Matters", by Jack Stamp. I suggest watching that video. To be a musician, we must learn and understand to always strive for perfection in ourselves and in one another.
gomerpowell03 7 months ago
@gomerpowell03 As I said earlier, I believe students can learn the value of striving for perfection or feel accomplished by playing football or playing golf, or by completing an English or math assignment. There are many places that a student can feel accomplished, learn to give their all, and learn to strive for perfection. There are very few places that a student can learn respect and appreciation for music. If students do not appreciate music, they will not support music education as adults.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
should first TEACH the students how to play music. Through the years of TEACHING music, the students will become more aware of musics important role for society. We as educators should always place the kids on a path so they can feel successful. We push them to always strive for excellence. I don't believe that the underlying goal for programs is to chase trophies, but to give the students a goal so that they may strive to reach it. In the end, the ultimate goal for us educators should be
gomerpowell03 7 months ago
@gomerpowell03 I believe that most, if not all, students in school music programs are taught to strive for excellence. There is nothing wrong with that. However, students can learn the value of striving for excellence by playing chess, playing baseball, or studying algebra or biology. School music students should also be taught to respect and appreciate music, in addition to striving for excellence on their instruments. They should be taught WHY to play music and not just how to play music.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
Music isn't music anymore. This is after years of playing music and going through the program for music education at university, and becoming a music educator myself. There is also a documentary titled "Before the Music Dies". If you haven't watched this video, I highly recommend watching it. I agree with what you're saying to a certain degree. Yes, the care and compassion for the well-being of music students should be our first priority. We as educators and supporters for music in school
gomerpowell03 7 months ago
@gomerpowell03 I do believe that most, if not all, music educators care for the personal well being of their students. I just wish more music educators cared as much about the MUSICAL well-being of their students. I don't believe that the average adult who was in a school music program is any more likely to play a musical instrument, listen to live or recorded instrumental music, or encourage their own children to play musical instruments than the adult who was not in a school music program.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
Here's my take on why music education is headed toward "extinction". We all know that everyone listens to music on the radio each and every day. People prefer a certain genre. This may cause some to lash out, but why not point the finger toward the music industry? Here's what I mean. Today's music isn't about music at all. Some will disagree, but let me clarify. How many artists in the business use more than an electronic beat generated from a computer and auto sing lyrics?
gomerpowell03 7 months ago
@gomerpowell03 Yes. I agree with you that most popular music today is nauseating and hideous and would not have even been considered music a couple decades ago. I point the finger at the listeners. If people refused to listen to this crap, it wouldn't exist. The thing that bothers me most is that school band and orchestra students listen to the exact same crap. Musically speaking, the average adult who was in a school music program is no different than the adult who wasn't.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
I recently learned that the only radio station in town that played instrumental music has changed its format to popular vocal music. Now there is absolutely no instrumental music on the radio, or on television, and live performances of instrumental music are extremely rare and very, very poorly attended, even though there is an enormous number of adults in town who played instrumental music in school. Instrumental music in our country is dying and selfish music "educators" do not care at all.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
It's not the Music Educators that you have to convince. It's the Administration, and in most cases winning trophies and plaques is the only way to convince them that a Music Program is Valuable. I do agree that the great composers and musicians need to be included into the Music Programs curriculum, that is a good point. Frank Battisti said in a video on here "We need to make band programs into Music Education programs." This is very true, but i'm unsure if it'll promote advocacy.
benjaminsurber 7 months ago
@benjaminsurber Administrators will be convinced only when there are enormous numbers of people supporting and demanding music education. The problem is a very small number of adults support music education, even though a large number of adults were in the music education system. Also, I believe that few, if any, band or orchestra students are taught about music advocacy. Music educators are too busy chasing their trophies to waste time teaching music advocacy or appreciation to their students.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ I just don't find it very comfortable for you to bash every Music Educator, especially since I'm going to be one in a few years. I just want to make it clear that it's not all the Music Educator's fault.
benjaminsurber 7 months ago
@benjaminsurber Please tell me when I ever used the phrases "every music educator" or "all music educators". You can't because I never have. However, I do believe the sad state of music education is primarily the fault of music educators. It's interesting how the people who strongly disagree with me seem to be either just out of college or still in college. I probably would have reacted the same way when I was in college 20 years ago.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
@benjaminsurber When you become a music educator, I hope you will be different from your peers and care about what your students learn and not just about how well they perform. I hope you will be different and will not be obsessed with winning trophies and plaques at school music competitions. I hope you will be different and actually produce adults that respect and appreciate instrumental music and, as a result, strongly support instrumental music education. I hope you are different than most.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ My friend, you imply that all music educators are the reason, and if you have gotten more than one response like this then it is obvious that i'm not the only one to think so. Also, what difference does it make that i'm still in college. I feel stronger for music than most tenured professors. It is also my theory that if you are a successful music educator that the trophies and plaques will come, without the educator being obsessed with that goal. I've seen this work.
benjaminsurber 7 months ago
@benjaminsurber I have never said or implied the phrase "all music educators" You are mistaken. The fact that you are in college just means you have many learning experiences ahead of you. Lots of things can be learned in college but there is no substitute for real world experience. I challenge you to find one person who's view of his profession hasn't changed at all after being out of college for ten or twenty years.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
@benjaminsurber I don't doubt that you feel stronger for music than most of your professors. There is more than one definition of a successful music educator. In my opinion, the music educator who's ensembles have won lots of competitions but who's students have no idea who John P. Sousa, Louis Armstrong or Leonard Bernstein is, do not listen to any instrumental music, and have no respect or appreciation for instrumental music, is a huge failure. That music educator is killing music education.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
@benjaminsurber I strongly believe that people who respect and appreciate instrumental music are far, far more likely to support instrumental music education. People who do not respect and appreciate instrumental music will never,ever, ever support instrumental music education. The average adult who was in band or orchestra in school has no more respect or appreciation for instrumental music than the adult who was not in band or orchestra. Music education is killing itself.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
A lot of powerful messages.
Over 20 years ago I went through a publicly funded school system with a band and an orchestra. Definitely think it is important to keep music education in school.
When it comes to funding, i don't know you can offload the cost to the parents making them pay to enroll their kids in a program. Music education may not be heading for extinction, only that it is accessible to those in private schools or parents willing and able to pay for lessons...
thepianoplayer416 8 months ago
@thepianoplayer416 Very, very few private schools have instrumental music programs and the number of parents willing and able to pay for lessons is very small and getting smaller. Most parents in the United States believe playing a musical instrument is no more demanding or intellectually beneficial to a middle-school or high school student than washing dishes or playing tic-tac-toe.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ It is hard to justify funding any after-school program with gov'ts in deficit. The focus: Reading, Writing & Arithmetic. Kids need education that will get them jobs. Research have shown there are benefits of listening to music (Mozart effect). Buying a music CD doesn't cost much. But teachers salaries, buying & maintaining instruments are harder to justify unless you can convince administrators kids get higher IQ scores and will be more competitive in the workforce later.
thepianoplayer416 7 months ago
@thepianoplayer416 Some people believe music programs are worth the cost. They believe that educating children in the arts will produce quality adults who see beauty in the world and who aren't completely shallow, self-obsessed, materialistic, heartless and, angry, like most people in our country seem to be. Some people believe that educating students in the arts will make our country a better place. Most people are far too simple-minded and short-sighted to see the benefits of arts education.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ
My next question then, in your 26 years of experience are you speaking as a parent, administrator, music teacher? I have been a teacher for 21 years, I cannot speak for everyone else, only for myself. My experiences as a music teacher have been very discouraging. Not because of my students but because district administrators say one thing and then do another. They say they support music then cut the program during budget problems. Then you blame teachers. System fail
TheRubyjean9 9 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ
My next question then, in your 26 years of experience are you speaking as a parent, administrator, music teacher? I have been a teacher for 21 years, I cannot speak for everyone else, only for myself. My experiences as a music teacher have been very discouraging. Not because of my students but because district administrators say one thing and then do another. They say they support music then cut the program during budget problems. Then you blame teachers.
TheRubyjean9 9 months ago
@TheRubyjean9 I believe the ultimate problem is that the music education system is not producing adults that support music education. If all, or even most, of the adults in this country right now who were in band or orchestra in school actively supported music education, it would be much more difficult, if not impossible, for administrators to cut programs. Few music educators are instilling any respect or appreciation for music in their students. When those students grow up, they don't care.
moderndaywarriorAZ 9 months ago
@TheRubyjean9 I am speaking as someone who was a student in the music education system from grade school through college and as an assistant band director/instructor. I also have many good friends who are band directors. I agree with you about administrators. None of them have the balls say what they really think. They say what is politically correct and then do the opposite and cut music programs. But, people like school board members are elected. The public ultimately has the power.
moderndaywarriorAZ 9 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ
My next question then, in then, in your 26 years of experience are you speaking as a parent, administrator, music teacher? I have been a teacher for 21 years, I cannot speak for everyone else, only for myself. My experiences as a music teacher have been very discouraging. Not because of my students but because district administrators say one thing and then do another. They say they support music then cut the program during budget problems. Then you blame teachers.
TheRubyjean9 9 months ago
I recently attended a high school jazz festival. It's amazing how these festivals create the illusion that jazz is alive and well in the United States. The sad fact is that few, if any of the students at the festival appreciate or respect jazz. Most, if not all, of them will quit playing their instruments as soon as they leave high school and will never play jazz, listen to recordings of jazz, or attend live performances of jazz again for the rest of their lives. And, their directors don't care.
moderndaywarriorAZ 9 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ
I would like to discuss with you why you think it is music teachers' fault for the"demise" of music education? How do you know directors don't care? Have you asked them? I agree with you to a point. SOME music teachers do indeed think it's all about the competition. Some compete to maintain their programs. Some compete because they think their students will benefit. You are, in your video, generalizing all music teachers. Your generalization is inaccurate.
TheRubyjean9 9 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ
I would like to discuss with you why you think it is music teachers' fault for the"demise" of music education? How do you know directors don't care? Have you asked them? I agree with you to a point. SOME music teachers do indeed think it's all about the competition. Some compete to maintain their programs. Some compete because they think their students will benefit. You are, in your video, generalizing all music teachers. Your generalization is inaccurate. Careful!
TheRubyjean9 9 months ago
@TheRubyjean9 Thank you for your response. I do not believe that the music education system is producing adults that support music education. My opinions are based on 26 years of first-hand personal experience with the music education system. At no point in my video do I use the phrase "all music educators". But, I do believe most music educators are concerned about how their students perform and not about what they learn. Then, as adults, those students do not support music education.
moderndaywarriorAZ 9 months ago
Wow - This is the most useless, self serving video i have ever seen in my life. You REALLY need to do your research and include your sources from places other than you posterior. Cranial / Rectal inversion is my diagnosis!
Drillking01 10 months ago
@Drillking01 My goal with this video was to expose flaws in the music education system that are leading to the demise of music education. How do you explain the fact that there is an enormous number of adults in the United States right now that were in band or orchestra in school yet there is very little support for music education? Do you even care about music education? If not, why are you even watching this video?
moderndaywarriorAZ 10 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ - I am a music teacher and must be in the minority - I do have the support as do the districts around us. I have an average of 5-6 students accepted into colleges as music majors. I have alumni return to help and to teach. Things have been going well until last Monday the School board played YOUR Video Monday night in front of a standing room only crowd.
I want to thank you personally for your help in the support of music . YOU SHOULD FEEL REALLY GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF.
Drillking01 10 months ago
@Drillking01 School boards are not destroying music education. Short-sighted and narrow-minded music educators who do not even try to teach music appreciation to their students are destroying music education. If the music education system produced adults who respected and appreciated instrumental music as well as instrumental music education, music education would not be in such big trouble. Don't shoot the messenger.
moderndaywarriorAZ 10 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ - by repeating something over and over again does not make it true. If it did, you would think we has a functional president in the white house. I'm not shooting the messenger but rather the message. You are implying school board directors / superintendent does NOTHING to hurt music education. They do NOTHING towards implementation of school improvement plans or curriuculum design/requirements. IAm I really missing something? So - Music educators are evil. Ok - got it!
Drillking01 10 months ago
@Drillking01 I do not believe that music educators are evil. They are just unaware of the fact that they are not producing adults who respect and appreciate instrumental music or support music education. The reason I say that school boards do not destroy music education is because if there was enough public support for music education, and more outrage when programs are cut, few if any music programs would be cut. School board members are ELECTED! The public ultimately has the power.
moderndaywarriorAZ 10 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ -- "The reason I say that school boards do not destroy music education is because if there was enough public support for music education, and more outrage when programs are cut, few if any music programs would be cut."
Well, that's a naive statement. I've been in places where the reasons budgets are cut are due to:
1. Inflexable teacher's unions
2. Funding cuts where the choice is cutting the Arts or Core Curriculum.
(Not necessarily both of these at the same time)
pennjazz 5 months ago
Darn reply box wasn't long enough...lol
No, I am not a college student. I have been out there teaching for a number of years.
School Board Officials have to look at the bigger picture. You can't have Core curriculum courses cut when those are looked upon as "important" nationally. Music is important, but our job is to educate not only the students, but the public as well. Better results have been generated by educating the public and this has saved programs all over the US. (More to come)
pennjazz 5 months ago
@pennjazz I agree that the job of the music educator is to "educate not only the students, but the public as well." Unfortunately every music educator I have met seems to think their job is to teach students how to play musical instruments. That's it. They don't even try to teach their students appreciation for instrumental music, or the people who have dedicated their lives to playing, composing, or teaching it. When those students grow up, they don't support music education and music dies.
moderndaywarriorAZ 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Darn reply box wasn't long enough...lol
No, I am not a college student. I have been out there teaching for a number of years.
School Board Officials have to look at the bigger picture. You can't have Core curriculum courses cut when those are looked upon as "important" nationally. Music is important, but our job is to educate not only the students, but the public as well. Better results have been generated by educating the public and this has saved programs all over the US. (More to come)
pennjazz 5 months ago
@pennjazz I do agree that Inflexable teacher's unions are a problem. However, I believe the major problem music education faces is lack of support. The reason music classes are not considered core classes is because very few people believe they should be. If enough people believed music classes should be considered core classes, music classes would be considered core classes. The reason math and science are core classes is because most people think they should be. The majority rules.
moderndaywarriorAZ 5 months ago
@Drillking01 Please explain how this video is "self serving". Please explain how I am benefiting personally from this video?
moderndaywarriorAZ 10 months ago
Tell you what...
I'll give you music lessons!
For free!
I really don't mind. It seems like you've been scorned by your teacher so I don't mind trying to make it up. I'll even give you a big hug when you get here....
Oh and all I ask in return is a trophy showing how awesome I am personally.
Munkieturdz 11 months ago
@Munkieturdz I actually haven't been scorned by a teacher at all. I was taught by some very good very well-intentioned teachers. It's just that instrumental music educators believe that their job ends after teaching students how to play musical instruments. Unfortunately students do not automatically learn respect and appreciation for music by simply learning to play an instrument. When those students become adults, they don't support music or music education. I want band around for my kids.
moderndaywarriorAZ 11 months ago
Why would anyone want to get a bachelor's degree, even a master's degree, put in the time and the work and the money just to get paid $40,000 a year. Oh yeah. I remember. It's the trophies...
Munkieturdz 11 months ago
@Munkieturdz And I'm not sure but perhaps, just perhaps, administrators don't care if students know who Bernstein was and if they listen to jazz regularly. Maybe they are judging the entire quality of the music program by how many trophies they win. So maybe the teacher did his or her best with the amount of support they were given.
Munkieturdz 11 months ago
@Munkieturdz I agree that school administrators are far to ignorant to judge the success of music programs any other way than to look at how competitively successful the music programs are. But, if music educators don't start caring about something other than trophies, music education will die. Music education is teaching students that the only reason to play an instrument is to win competitions. When those students become adults, they see no value in playing a musical instrument.
moderndaywarriorAZ 11 months ago
Oh and you cite no facts, statistics, or references.
Munkieturdz 11 months ago
@Munkieturdz Where are your facts and statistics that contradict or disprove the claims in this video? You must have some if you are so sure that these are wrong.
moderndaywarriorAZ 11 months ago
@Munkieturdz This world is full of too many people who are too weak-minded to come to any conclusions without statistics or studies to tell them what to think.
moderndaywarriorAZ 11 months ago
Oh and the spelling thing bothered me too. It's not that I have nothing to argue about, it's just why try to have an intelligent conversation with someone who has trouble with fifth grade spelling...
Munkieturdz 11 months ago
@Munkieturdz I didn't make this video to impress you or anyone else with my spelling capability. I don't care what you or anyone else thinks of me. I do care that music education is dying and that music educators are blaming everyone else for it. There's an enormous number of adults in the United States right now that were in band or orchestra in school. I don't know exactly how many and neither do you. The question is, where are they? Why aren't they supporting music education? That's my point.
moderndaywarriorAZ 11 months ago
@Munkieturdz "Toward" and "towards" are both correct and interchangeable: you can use either one because they mean the same thing.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
@Munkieturdz Trophies may not be why people begin teaching band or orchestra, but it is amazing to see the transformation that takes place after a music educator has been teaching for a few years, particularly high school music educators. They become obsessed with "winning". I have seen music "educators" throw tantrums because they did not receive the score or placement they felt their ensemble deserved at a music competition.
moderndaywarriorAZ 11 months ago
Hey - how is spell check working for you? and simple FACT and Source check.....just saying - Opinions are one thing but out and out slander is another thing. Thanks for the support and helping the cause. It really helps all of us teachers, who actually work and achieve results for a living, lives much easier. Claims of a resume and "personal experiences" sure does sound like sour grapes on all sorts of levels. But this is a free country and you do have a right to complain and whine. Thank you
Drillking01 11 months ago
@Drillking01 I have no doubt that there are some music educators that are working hard and achieving results. But, there are simply not enough of them. They are in the minority. I would love to see music education flourish and grow. The problem is that the music education system does not produce adults that respect and appreciate music or that appreciate and support music education. It's funny how people criticize someone's spelling when they run out of meaningful thoughts to respond with.
moderndaywarriorAZ 11 months ago
@moderndaywarriorAZ Why would anyone want to get a bachelor's degree, or even a master's, put in the work and time and money, to end up with a $35,000 salary. Oh and the trophies, don't forget the trophies.
Munkieturdz 11 months ago
@Drillking01 "Toward" and "towards" are both correct and interchangeable: you can use either one because they mean the same thing.
moderndaywarriorAZ 7 months ago
I think you have a good point, if music is not taught for the general benefit first and competition (a distant) fourth it will only go one way.
I think it isn't as bad as you suggest and worse. The main problem as I see it is a kind of "mystery cult" surrounding music and its meaning in musicology which resists attempts to speak directly to what music IS and is for.
Until we as musician say NO! Music has meaning and concrete enumerable function we will never be taken serious as a discipline.
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
I feel that some of reason why competition and ego and stuff like that is so prevalent in the music classroom today is because the higher-ups in the schools expect the band to have something to show for their work. But they fail to recognize the fact that music isn't a sport- we're not going to get a trophy for playing a symphony the whole way through or anything. Because of the unrealistic demands of the administrators, music teachers seem to roll over and give up, and so music programs suffer.
hobone38 1 year ago
@hobone38 Thank you for your comment. I do agree that pressure from administrators to be competitively successful may be one reason that music educators are so competitive. But, I still believe that the pressure music educators feel to be competitively successful is primarily self-imposed. It is primarily ego-driven. I also believe that most school administrators don't care at all if their school's music ensembles are competitively successful or if they even exist.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
@hobone38 Several years ago a band came to my town for a competition. One of the staff members told me that their band program had been completely cut. The band was entirely self-funded, like a drum and bugle corps. This band has won the BOA Championship more than once. This marching band is one of the most competitively successful bands in the country and the school administration did not care at all. I don't believe any superintendent has ever said "Let's keep the band. They got first place!"
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
I have every right to voice my thoughts just as you do. My generalizations are based on 29 years of first-hand personal experience with the music education system. If "shaming" music educators won't make them do a better job, then what will? If music educators don't start doing a much better job, music education will die. Music education will not be saved by music educators whining, complaining, and blaming everyone else. If you post another comment, please make it one of substance.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
It is asinine to generalize music educators as you do in this piece. If you are looking to shame educators into doing a better job, then who the hell are you? Otherwise, this is pointless dribble.
Wade Caudle
Music Educator
AANungWarrior 1 year ago
I never said all music educators were bad. I knew I would make some people angry with this video but that is not my goal. My goal is to see music education thrive for many many more years. Of course there are some very good music educators. I might have reacted the same way when I was your age. But, my personal experiences over the last 25 years have made me realize that music education is not at all what it claims to be and what I thought it was.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
Not saying I don't agree with some parts of your video however. Something else I also thought of. Kids are offered many more choices in electives to take than their parents were offered when they were in school.
07kevin26 1 year ago
I agree with your point that kids have many more activities to choose from today. This is why it is more important than ever for music educators to instill respect and appreciation for music in their students. If parents who were involved in music in school don't encourage their own kids to do the same, music education will be in serious trouble, and it is. Kids see sports on television 24 hours a day. Parents are allowing the television to choose their children's interests.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
Music education is dying because of the focus on standardized testing in America. Everybody is suddenly only worried about the core subject areas. Parents don't want their children to waste time on music. They don't see it helping them get into college. I have to pound into my students heads everyday that music can help you get into college and beyond. There's no time for creativity anymore. That's the problem.
07kevin26 1 year ago
I agree that there is a big focus on standardized testing. But, the simple fact is that people support things they care about and they don't support things they don't care about. I believe some of parents that think music is a waste of time were themselves in band or orchestra in school. That is the problem. I can understand if a parent who played football in high school thinks music is a waste of time. But, if adults who played music in school don't care about music in school, who will?
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
Did you conduct a survey or are you making all this stuff up? where's the data? I bet every person in a top ranking competitive marching band in high school or college knows who Duke Ellington is... but then again, I would have to actually research that.
drawn2511 1 year ago
@drawn2511 No. As I have stated previously, I did not conduct a survey and I do not have any statistics. My theory is based over 25 years as a musician and a music instructor/teacher. Whether people know who Duke Ellington is or not is a minor point. My point is that students in school music programs learn absolutely no respect and appreciation for music. As a result, they do not support music education when they become adults. This is why music education is in serious trouble.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
@drawn2511 I also believe there are far too many weak-minded people in the world who are incapable of forming an opinion or reaching a conclusion without a study or some statistics telling them what to think. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli. Does anyone doubt that there are thousands of adults alive in the U.S. who were in band or orchestra in school? And yet, our orchestra halls are empty and our jazz clubs die within weeks of opening.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
Comment removed
drawn2511 1 year ago
For 20 years, I have been quietly teaching orchestra without all the hoopla of festivals and competitions. It's about making sure kids get exposure to the best examples of music whether it be classical, jazz or rock. I teach them to love music and how to experience it after they have long graduated from public school programs. In the ideal world, all adults would be amateur musicians/composers playing in community orchestras, chamber groups or bands. This is how music can thrive.
fiddldd 1 year ago
Thank you very much for your comment. You are a true music educator. I wish more music"educators" thought as you do.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
I'm very sorry if you've had a bad experience with a music educator. But there are MANY wonderful teachers out there. It is such a difficult career. The government cuts spending to schools and for whatever reason music is first on the chopping block. I'm a performance major at college, and colleges aren't exactly kind to music education majors. So they either sink or swim. You can't just blame the teachers. Those of us who love music need to help create awareness of its' importance.
kittykyd15 1 year ago
I realize there are many great teachers in music education and I am very aware of how difficult it is. The problem is that few music educators are helping to create an awareness of music's importance. The vast majority of them teachstudents to play musical instruments only for the purpose of winning competitions and improving their own egos and reputations. As a result, their students do not learn any respect or appreciation for music and do not support music education when they become adults.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
I have had the same experience with dozens of music educators.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
I can understand the point that music appreciation is something that can be learned, but competition in music is a part of the real world.
When speaking about competing, don't you think it is a competition to get into the New York Philharmonic? They are the best musicians in the world and they get in by competing with other musicians. They don't get in because they appreciate the music.
tdouglass100 1 year ago
There is nothing wrong with music competition. The problem is that music educators are obsessed with it to the point that they act as their only purpose as music "educators" is to win competitions. As a result, students in school band and orchestra programs learn that the only reason to play a musical instrument is to beat someone else at a competition. Students can learn about competition almost anywhere. There are precious few places they can learn appreciation for music.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
As a future music educator, I take offense to much of what you have said. Being in band helped me grow as a person. While my first band director was exactly what you described, my second band director actually taught us to appreciate music. He taught us all the great composers of classical, jazz, contemporary, etc. I can't tell you how many of his students have gone on to major in music ed because he instilled that love of music in all of us and I only had him for one year! Not all are bad...
dragonmello 2 years ago
Yes. There are many non-musical benefits to being in band or orchestra. But, shouldn't there be some musical ones as well? Jazz and classical music in the United States are completely dead outside of government funded institutions. This is because students learn absolutely no respect or appreciation for music as members of school bands or orchestras. Unfortunately most music educators are too busy chasing their trophies to teach respect or appreciation for music to their students.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
So what your saying is, if we don't have classical music shoved down our throats then we don't have any respect for music?
And if our music teachers don't teach us about classical music artists then they are "egotistical and self-serving"?
You are the problem with music, You are a stuck up music snob who thinks that you're more intelligent because you have listened to classical music.
Please Go Away and stop making these stupid claims.
radicalsoundblast 2 years ago
There is nothing wrong with Rock or types of popular music. I listen to them myself. Pop music and Rock or Metal are not dying a miserable death. Jazz and Classical music are. And, there are thousands of music educators in this country being paid millions of dollars to teach jazz and classical music to their students. So, the fact that Jazz and Classical music are still dying means that those thousands of music educators are not doing their jobs. They are wasting money and music is dying.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago
what you said may be true for a lot of cases, but do you have any statistics? numbers? examples? im not totally disagreeing with you here, but it's hard to convince people when all your arguments are general ideas.
MicrobeObliteratorMo 2 years ago
No. I do not have any statistics or numbers. I just have my theory. But, as of yet, no one has significantly challenged my theory and I do not need statistics or studies to tell me what is very obvious. Do you doubt that there are thousands of adults alive in the United States right now that were in band or orchestra in school or that these thousands of former band and orchestra students do not now support music education? If they did support it, music education would not be dying.
moderndaywarriorAZ 1 year ago