WK910, you are woefully misinformed on nearly every point, although I do agree with you that it should be the Justice Department, not Congress that pursues these charges.
-Waterboarding is torture, period. It has been regarded as torture for century, and the US has prosecuted and even executed people for torture because they waterboarded - Japanese in WW II and American GIs in Vietnam.
-Torture does not produce good intelligence, but is effective in forcing people into false confessions.
You can talk about the moral high ground all you like, but the fact is that we are at war with an ideology of hate. We have been ever since 9/11/2001. The families of those slaughtered could care less about moral high ground. They want action, not rationalizations or talk about how we brought on ourselves with our policies. We've gotten complacent. It is a sad day when we worry more about whether our enemies were hit a widdle too hard rather than national security.
Sitting a terrorist in a chair and politely asking them questions accomplishes very little. I have no qualms with our guys leaning on these animals if it saves American lives. And Dodd is hardly a figure of righteousness. I'd say his calls for a truth commission have less to do with righteous indignation and more with his desire to distract from questions about his shady dealings with AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac.
Aside from the seriously racist tone that accompanies the description "these animals", how do you know they're actually guilty? There's multiple cases where people were falsely accused of being terrorist and turned over to US forces to settle personal grudges. And the horrible thing about torturing people is that it puts our forces at greater risk. We loose the high moral ground.
We know most of them are guilty, because many of them admitted their guilt, were captured after attacking us, or have otherwise been proven to be known terrorists. While there have been cases of mistaken guilt, they have been the exception rather than the rule. Waterboarding is not torture, the Guantanamo inmates were well-fed and treated humanely, according to most accounts. Honestly, what good is the moral high ground if more of our citizens are killed in another act of terrorism?
What gives Congress the right to drag private citizens before them and judge them? As for this torture nonsense, I have yet to hear a single case where a detainee was seriously injured or killed as a result of interrogation. Considering that most of these men are depraved killers, you will forgive me if I find it difficult to feel sympathy for them. We are at war. At the end of the day, it matters not how you won, only that you won. While I believe there are rules, I am sick of this crap.
Let me explain a few things. First, if it can be proven that President Bush or his associates did anything criminal, such a trial should take place in a courtroom, in front of a judge and jury. It should not take place on Capitol Hill, conducted by pompous liberal Senators who are more interested in political grandstanding than discovering the truth. Last time, I checked, the President and most of his former associates were effectively private citizens, guaranteed the same rights as anyone.
I'd love to see trials. Let's get to the bottom of this. Though clearly you're familiar with Congress's ability to hold investigations. Ever hear of Watergate?
The difference, drewish, is that Watergate involved the wrongdoing of a sitting President and several active officials. Geroge Bush is no longer a government official. The same goes for Dick Cheney and others. They are effectively private citizens. Congress' judicial powers should be relevant in cases involving active government officials only. Anything else should be handled by the judiciary, that's what it's for.
Thanks again, Senator Dodd. I'll never forget how hard you worked to stop telcom immunity. We lost in the end, but you never gave up. And they tried to stop you too -- the convenient timing of the mortgage rate "scandal" did not go unnoticed.
Dodd didn't compare Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib with the Holocaust. How blind you are to say he did!
What he did was CONTRAST them with Nuremberg. He was actually comparing, for the sake of argument, al Qaeda and 9/11 to the Nazis' crimes, as the Right has done, and saying, "we gave the Nazis a fair trial — but we dare not give these guys a fair trial?"
We sacrificed the high ground, our most precious possession, for ideological extremes a la John Bolton. And we were the losers.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
nvtcouple, what is torture? I'm getting tired of hearing how waterboarding is torture it is not. If you want torture, look up some of Saddam's pastimes. You read through that and I promise you'll reach a new understanding of torture. For Dodd to compare waterboarding known terrorists and murderers to the extermination of 6 million Jews is sickening. Dodd and his ilk are attempting to criminalize opposing political viewpoints. They want to put Bush and friends on trial, go ahead.....
What is torture??? Well I would categorize that as the same things we executed people for doing and labelled torture (waterboarding) would be considered torture if we do it. How can you say your sick of hearing this be called torture. I am sick of the terrible things our government did while under the tyranny of Cheney! The end does not justify the means. Are there worse tortures, yes, but simulated death (not drowning, because they WERE drowning them) to me is torture.
And should we always assume guilt and begin torturing? Sure, these guys do not deserve sympathy, but we are better than them. The reason we prospered after WW2 is because during WW2 we held ourselves to the highest moral ground. Enough to convince Germans to flee to us, surrender to us and share their secrets with us out of fear of the Russians. Had we been torturing them like you believe we should do, I can guarantee the years following WW2 would not have been prosperous.
It's torture, and I it's pretty clear that the techniques used to torture filtered down and resulted in the murders that occurred at Abu Ghraib. Thankfully Bush/Cheney's crimes didn't rise to the level of Hitler's but their actions should be fully investigated and punished accordingly.
Torture is definded under federal law as actions which causes severe physical or mental anguish. I'm sorry, but I don't see waterboarding as falling under that designation. The detainees were not seriously injured, so it would be hard to prove "severe" anguish. That's part of the reason the Justice Department doesn't want to prosecute. Because they know it would be difficult to prove criminal liability in court due to this and the fact that the govt. enjoys a wide latitude in the eyes of law
The Justice Dept threw out the rationale that purported that water boarding was not torture. I think it'd be very easy in a court room to show that it was torture. So again, I welcome trials.
However, drewish, the Justic Dept. also has declined to seek criminal prosecution because they know it force to courts in an awkward position. The courts would be forced to define whether waterboarding is torture. We also have to look at the political aspect. Though I depise the man, Obama is not stupid. He knows that criminal prosecution of men who honestly were trying to keep us safe might rachet support for the GOP. A majority of Americans don't want a criminal probe.
Put Cheney and the rest of the torturers on trial. If we do nothing, we become the country that tortures and gives immunity to those that torture. Shame on Cheney, shame on us for allowing it, and even worse, shame on us for excusing it.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Because when the GOP retakes the White House (no party rules forever.), it'll give the GOP just the reason to go after Obama and the skeletons in his closet.
If Obama tortures, eliminates civil rights, spies on us, leads us into preemptive wars, has an execution squad, sells our fights to the highest bidders (contractors) allows for the church to implement christian sharia law within our government through firing anyone who does not subscribe their version of religion, hiring only christian show lawyers to alter our constitutional laws, etc, etc, etc, then I will be calling for his prosecution too.
and your argument is just weak. So don't prosecute someone for breaking the law, because you might break the law some day and don't want to be prosecuted? I mean the GOP tried to impeach and prosecute Clinton for getting a BJ and now all of a sudden the sanctity of POTUS is above pettiness, as if torturing is some petty crime, not of the horror of an Oval Office BJ.
To see Barack at his best, go to: Her Name is Ms Ann, on YOUTUBE. It explains everything. A MUST READ!
peteykkk 2 years ago
WK910, you are woefully misinformed on nearly every point, although I do agree with you that it should be the Justice Department, not Congress that pursues these charges.
-Waterboarding is torture, period. It has been regarded as torture for century, and the US has prosecuted and even executed people for torture because they waterboarded - Japanese in WW II and American GIs in Vietnam.
-Torture does not produce good intelligence, but is effective in forcing people into false confessions.
COLDB33R 2 years ago
You can talk about the moral high ground all you like, but the fact is that we are at war with an ideology of hate. We have been ever since 9/11/2001. The families of those slaughtered could care less about moral high ground. They want action, not rationalizations or talk about how we brought on ourselves with our policies. We've gotten complacent. It is a sad day when we worry more about whether our enemies were hit a widdle too hard rather than national security.
whiteking910 2 years ago
Sitting a terrorist in a chair and politely asking them questions accomplishes very little. I have no qualms with our guys leaning on these animals if it saves American lives. And Dodd is hardly a figure of righteousness. I'd say his calls for a truth commission have less to do with righteous indignation and more with his desire to distract from questions about his shady dealings with AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac.
whiteking910 2 years ago
Aside from the seriously racist tone that accompanies the description "these animals", how do you know they're actually guilty? There's multiple cases where people were falsely accused of being terrorist and turned over to US forces to settle personal grudges. And the horrible thing about torturing people is that it puts our forces at greater risk. We loose the high moral ground.
drewish 2 years ago
We know most of them are guilty, because many of them admitted their guilt, were captured after attacking us, or have otherwise been proven to be known terrorists. While there have been cases of mistaken guilt, they have been the exception rather than the rule. Waterboarding is not torture, the Guantanamo inmates were well-fed and treated humanely, according to most accounts. Honestly, what good is the moral high ground if more of our citizens are killed in another act of terrorism?
whiteking910 2 years ago
What gives Congress the right to drag private citizens before them and judge them? As for this torture nonsense, I have yet to hear a single case where a detainee was seriously injured or killed as a result of interrogation. Considering that most of these men are depraved killers, you will forgive me if I find it difficult to feel sympathy for them. We are at war. At the end of the day, it matters not how you won, only that you won. While I believe there are rules, I am sick of this crap.
whiteking910 2 years ago
Let me explain a few things. First, if it can be proven that President Bush or his associates did anything criminal, such a trial should take place in a courtroom, in front of a judge and jury. It should not take place on Capitol Hill, conducted by pompous liberal Senators who are more interested in political grandstanding than discovering the truth. Last time, I checked, the President and most of his former associates were effectively private citizens, guaranteed the same rights as anyone.
whiteking910 2 years ago
I'd love to see trials. Let's get to the bottom of this. Though clearly you're familiar with Congress's ability to hold investigations. Ever hear of Watergate?
drewish 2 years ago
The difference, drewish, is that Watergate involved the wrongdoing of a sitting President and several active officials. Geroge Bush is no longer a government official. The same goes for Dick Cheney and others. They are effectively private citizens. Congress' judicial powers should be relevant in cases involving active government officials only. Anything else should be handled by the judiciary, that's what it's for.
whiteking910 2 years ago
Thanks again, Senator Dodd. I'll never forget how hard you worked to stop telcom immunity. We lost in the end, but you never gave up. And they tried to stop you too -- the convenient timing of the mortgage rate "scandal" did not go unnoticed.
Here's hoping you get some traction. Cheers.
revelwoodie 2 years ago
1- "choosing to release the documents'?
Didn't the release of documents result from the govt being sued by the ACLU?
2- Not punishing those who broke the law will INSURE that it happens again.
3- A Truth Commission will have the same result as the 911 Commission. It will insure that NO ONE is held accountable.
SPECIAL PROSECUTOR NOW!
PFWoody488 2 years ago 2
Dodd didn't compare Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib with the Holocaust. How blind you are to say he did!
What he did was CONTRAST them with Nuremberg. He was actually comparing, for the sake of argument, al Qaeda and 9/11 to the Nazis' crimes, as the Right has done, and saying, "we gave the Nazis a fair trial — but we dare not give these guys a fair trial?"
We sacrificed the high ground, our most precious possession, for ideological extremes a la John Bolton. And we were the losers.
TheProudPrimate 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
nvtcouple, what is torture? I'm getting tired of hearing how waterboarding is torture it is not. If you want torture, look up some of Saddam's pastimes. You read through that and I promise you'll reach a new understanding of torture. For Dodd to compare waterboarding known terrorists and murderers to the extermination of 6 million Jews is sickening. Dodd and his ilk are attempting to criminalize opposing political viewpoints. They want to put Bush and friends on trial, go ahead.....
whiteking910 2 years ago
What is torture??? Well I would categorize that as the same things we executed people for doing and labelled torture (waterboarding) would be considered torture if we do it. How can you say your sick of hearing this be called torture. I am sick of the terrible things our government did while under the tyranny of Cheney! The end does not justify the means. Are there worse tortures, yes, but simulated death (not drowning, because they WERE drowning them) to me is torture.
nvtcouple 2 years ago
And should we always assume guilt and begin torturing? Sure, these guys do not deserve sympathy, but we are better than them. The reason we prospered after WW2 is because during WW2 we held ourselves to the highest moral ground. Enough to convince Germans to flee to us, surrender to us and share their secrets with us out of fear of the Russians. Had we been torturing them like you believe we should do, I can guarantee the years following WW2 would not have been prosperous.
nvtcouple 2 years ago
It's torture, and I it's pretty clear that the techniques used to torture filtered down and resulted in the murders that occurred at Abu Ghraib. Thankfully Bush/Cheney's crimes didn't rise to the level of Hitler's but their actions should be fully investigated and punished accordingly.
drewish 2 years ago
Torture is definded under federal law as actions which causes severe physical or mental anguish. I'm sorry, but I don't see waterboarding as falling under that designation. The detainees were not seriously injured, so it would be hard to prove "severe" anguish. That's part of the reason the Justice Department doesn't want to prosecute. Because they know it would be difficult to prove criminal liability in court due to this and the fact that the govt. enjoys a wide latitude in the eyes of law
whiteking910 2 years ago
The Justice Dept threw out the rationale that purported that water boarding was not torture. I think it'd be very easy in a court room to show that it was torture. So again, I welcome trials.
drewish 2 years ago
However, drewish, the Justic Dept. also has declined to seek criminal prosecution because they know it force to courts in an awkward position. The courts would be forced to define whether waterboarding is torture. We also have to look at the political aspect. Though I depise the man, Obama is not stupid. He knows that criminal prosecution of men who honestly were trying to keep us safe might rachet support for the GOP. A majority of Americans don't want a criminal probe.
whiteking910 2 years ago
Put Cheney and the rest of the torturers on trial. If we do nothing, we become the country that tortures and gives immunity to those that torture. Shame on Cheney, shame on us for allowing it, and even worse, shame on us for excusing it.
nvtcouple 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Because when the GOP retakes the White House (no party rules forever.), it'll give the GOP just the reason to go after Obama and the skeletons in his closet.
whiteking910 2 years ago
If Obama tortures, eliminates civil rights, spies on us, leads us into preemptive wars, has an execution squad, sells our fights to the highest bidders (contractors) allows for the church to implement christian sharia law within our government through firing anyone who does not subscribe their version of religion, hiring only christian show lawyers to alter our constitutional laws, etc, etc, etc, then I will be calling for his prosecution too.
nvtcouple 2 years ago 2
and your argument is just weak. So don't prosecute someone for breaking the law, because you might break the law some day and don't want to be prosecuted? I mean the GOP tried to impeach and prosecute Clinton for getting a BJ and now all of a sudden the sanctity of POTUS is above pettiness, as if torturing is some petty crime, not of the horror of an Oval Office BJ.
nvtcouple 2 years ago