Kawawada Kumite All Japan 1985

[geerofel]

did you notice the reeferre?? Is that Shihan Tetsuhiko Asai ( Chief Instructor JKS 10th dan)????

[miamiice]

Awesome display of kumite skill by Kawawada and Kagawa of current day JKS. Guys here in youtube outta take notes of this senior instructors instead of bsing about what's better..

[danumber1assassin]

why is it that ppl argue about bs is not about mma or karate if u want mma simply look ar mma videos we who really love karate dnt argue wit yall i love mma bnut this is shotokan kumite so my comment is kagawa is da bomb

[AERR9]

eheh frame 2:39 point to Kawawada!!

[Ronin6575]

The benefits of training in traditional karate are that you should still be able to train long into old age, whereas in MMA, participants will be lucky to be standing and walking after the age of 50. .....Who cares who is tougher?

[alexgrunloh128]

@Ronin6575 I totally agree with you. My father is a Godan (5th dan) in Shotokan Karate and even though he retired from the organization that he, myself and all my brothers trained in, he is still in very good shape and has great understanding of the way of Shotokan karate. He is still one of the most well respected men in the ASKF and one of the highest ranked individuals of the organization and part of the ASKF Hall of Fame and lifetime member.

[Ronin6575]

@alexgrunloh128 I think I know your group if it is up in South DAkota....great group of guys...I have trained up there. We all just need to learn not to take ourselves too seriously with martial arts training. It has to be beneficial to us or why do it.

[theewatchman]

is the ref in this video asai sensei ? looks like him.

[trazaman]

Regarding combat sports. I believe the differences in rules block a direct comparison of styles. Just the use of gloves is a handicap for karate. Other styles may have other handicaps that I do not know.

A good MMA fighter should have a good striker background and at least be able to stay safe in the floor. However as long as people think that striking or grabbing alone is the answer we will keep having these futile arguments.

[trazaman]

I do shotokan. You all know that the same techniques used in kyokushin are used by shotokan. The main difference is that we risk doing fist attacks to the face. Therefore it becomes necessary to stop as soon as we hit, otherwise a lot of severe injuries wood occur. Remeber that we train in breaking stuff with bare hand attacks, braking bones on the face isn't any different. This type of competition is the only safe way to test our combat skills.

[MAfanatic]

People are getting all angry but I'm commenting on the tournament rules. This is NOT combat. It's less combat than boxing. He'll, this is less combat oriented than highschool wrestling. I know there is more to karate. I know there is self defense. I know some karateka cross trained and fougth in MMA. Just look at Layota Machida. But even those karateka admit that without boxing, grappling and muay thai mixed in, point karate ALONE is not effective. That's not to say that karate is not deadly.

[anhkhoinguyen]

your pretty ignorant anyways some people train boxing for defense most for sport, same for any art. There are traditional karate that doesnt do point sparring(kyokushin-juku-enshin­)ect ect if u want to compare martial arts then compare it to other martial arts not martial sports, its obvious they "play tag" kuz its a sport a game just like boxing is a sport with limits its like saying javalin tossin is fake kuz dey dont kill noone. ther not dumb they know the difference stop tryin be a smart ass

[MAfanatic]

Wet: Good MMA fighters would NEVER call themselves street fighters. They would actually get offended. They see themselves as athletes. It's a sport. But it is the ONLY combat sport right now (with rules of course) that can at least come close to allowing fighters to use all fighting attributes: strikes, throws, joint locks, chokes, ground grappling, and do it with 2 once gloves (same ones you see in NO TOUCH point karate). MMA is NOT a street fight. But this is not even fighting. It's tag.

[vdipilato]

Go play tag with them.  If you want, go play tag with them in the street if makes you feel better.

[MAfanatic]

I don't have to go play tag with anyone. I do not go picking fights on the street. But this form of sparring is a game of tag. Plain and simple. These guy can feel free to step into any MMA or grappling gym and they would be destroyed. I think they would quickly find out that their 'one punch one kill' theory is BS. Face punches, combination strikes, take down, chokes, joint locks, clinch work, theyd lose. I see their stance. They're quick. But they're open to numerous attack possibilities.

[vdipilato]

You never know until you try. You don't want to play tag with them, but they should fight at an MMA gym? Lets be a little fair. "Face punches, combination strikes, take down, chokes, joint locks, clinch work," last time I checked these were all on the Shotokan syllabus. There might not be a lot of ground work, there is some but not a lot. however, you didn't even mention this.

[MAfanatic]

I actually come from point karate background. Also competed in full contact karate type tournaments and WTF TKD. I later began training in western boxing, muay thai and brazilian jiujitsu. I can assure you, these guys would be lost. When one punch is not enough to score points and you have to work combination strikes for a KO, the fight game changes. When leg kicks are added, and double leg take downs are allowed, JKA guys would either have to COMPLETELY adjust or lose. They look fit to change

[MAfanatic]

Its obvious there are a lot of Shotokan fans here. Great. When you say 'go play tag with them' do you mean step into a shotokan tournament? I couldn't even if I wanted to. MMA is open to everyone. There are plenty of point karate guys and some full contact karate guys who come down to mma gyms. Those with Judo backgrounds do well. Others dont. They are fast, but that doesn't often cut it. I'm sure shotokan guys are tough, but these tournaments are glorified games of tag. I'm not anti karateka.

[fjacksoniv]

You are only seeing one part of Karate, I train in Shotokan and we train in street application, aswell as Kumite which is what you are seeing in this video. Karate, we train to kill, not hurt, are attacks are set to take you out, not beat the mess out of you. I will personal challenge anyone in MMA to a Street Fight and I promise it will be GREAT fight.

[MAfanatic]

Look, we're living in modern times. No need to street fight and get arrested. I assure you that an MMA fighter can hold his own on the same level, if not better, than a shotokan karateka. My comment was about the tournament rules and regulations. It's promoting tag style fighting that promotes bad habbits. The current UFC champion (also pro level boxer and black belt in brazilian jiujitsu) cross trained to make his world class karate background complete.

[fjacksoniv]

You are only seeing one part of Karate, I train in Shotokan and we train in street application, aswell as Kumite which is what you are seeing in this video. Karate, we train to kill, not hurt, are attacks are set to take you out, not beat the mess out of you. I will personal challenge anyone in MMA to a Street Fight and I promise it will be GREAT fight.

[MAfanatic]

Wen: Boxing is a combat sport. This is combat sport karate. Same thing. It doesn't matter that boxing doesn't prepare you for kicks. Boxing only has 4 bunches. Boxers use same punches when they start at age 5 that they use at age 30. But they build up to virtuoso type skills. Even if you kick, they will close the distance faster than you think. Generally, they are more donditioned for head blows, evasion and fighting. This is a game of tag. Nothing real or combat about it.

[anhkhoinguyen]

u say a boxer a close the distance n knock a kicker out this n that? then explain why every boxer that steped up in k-1 or muay thai n got droped b4 they could even get close by low kicks. its all over youtube....its a fact boxers just dont have the conditioning in there legs or defense to stop kicks. boxing is pretty but when other weapons of the human body r thrown in they dont look to hot. everyone just search some videos on youtube. =]

[MAfanatic]

OK, you can't compare point fighting with KI. I love KI. But most Kick Boxers / Muay Thai guys there know how to deal with boxers. Just recently a boxer was KOed with two leg kicks from a Muay Thai guy. But the Shotokan guys are also not use to taking Thai kicks. If they go into a KI event, they would be Thai Kicked and combination punched (because they don't know combinations) into a KO as well. I'm not against Shotokan. I think this tournament style leads to bad habbits

[MAfanatic]

I'm sure these guys are incredible athletes. I'm sure they're quick and if they wouldn't have to pull punches, there would be much more blood. But fundamentally, they are not training for combat. Hands are low. Punches are pulled. This looks like a glorified game of tag instead of combat. I am sure that a good boxer, muay thai guy, even wrestler would not have great difficulty with these karateka. And, it's a shame because they have as much, if NOT MORE talent.

[moelicious1]

Agreed. I've heard that some of the fighters refer to the "tournament season" and that when it's done, they can get back to real training. I've stopped attending tournaments and training for them. It takes a good bit of time and energy to be competitive and to excel at winning the "point". I had lost focus of the true combat and was swayed into thinking the sport combat was the way. I now take it for the athleticism and defined skills that are needed to be great. Just like any other sport.

[wetnwild001]

how can you say that they are not training for combat? what you saw here is not training! it's a competition! You talk about boxing, but boxing doesn't even prepare you for kicks! Boxing is a sport, not a martial art. Karate is a martial art. It was created to be used when you're defending your life!

[MAfanatic]

I'm pretty sure, if you take a world shotokan karate champ and same weight world champion boxer, the boxer you'll quickly see that boxers can close the kicking gap and put a karateka out for the count. Just look at Manny Paqiai train. Boxing and wrestling are the OLDEST forms of combat. Even your Gichin Funakoshi writes in his book "Karate-do My way of Life' the effectiveness of grappling against karate. I see karateka picked apart by boxers all the time. Even Bill Walace said boxing was key.

[OTHdjraj]

It all depends on the fighter, there are still throws in karate and by mixing techniques would you just say anything goes or does the karate fighter have to use POINT SPARRING techniques? There are Elbows , Knife Hand Strikes, Knees,Groin Kicks, Throat Attacks Grabs, all things a Boxer doesn't focus on. And in a life or death anything goes I'm sure you don't think about Biting, Gouging, Fishhooks, and chokes

[MAfanatic]

That is a good point. But boxers can in fact use rabbit punches, dirty moves, head buts (they're great at them), eye guages and thumbing, clinch work, etc. For street fights, conditioning is also key. Beign able to take a punch is key. Being able to work combinations is key and not stopping after one successfull punch. The karate point tournaments reinforce bad habbits. Boxing, though a sport, is much more realistic.

[anhkhoinguyen]

boxing is just as limited buddy not any more realistic, bobbing up and down leaves u open to knees,the thai clinch n kicks, there stance leaves them open to leg kicks,sweeps and wrestling takedown, no ground skills or stand up grappling, they dont practise any defense to legs or elbows or work excapes from holds. as you see the have many bad habits as well. you say they can dirty box this n that but they dont train for them,so they just revert back to bad habits of not using them. lol

[anhkhoinguyen]

modern boxing and ancient greek or roman boxing arent even related it died out for a long time in europe and only recently 1700c was recreated through bare knuckle fights INDEPENDENTLY so was free style and even greco-roman wrestling and that is a fact. exmp. sumerians invented writing but it doesnt mean the chinese charcters came from them, they developed it indepentently like alot of cultures, so was modern boxing came about unrelated to greek or roman boxing. that is fact

[anhkhoinguyen]

funny i remember bill wallace was a kicker, and no boxer or hands specialist could touch him when he kicked...=]

[MAfanatic]

This doesn't even look like combat. These are guys are NOT learning how to fight they are learning how NOT to fight.

[tanthegun]

In a sense, yes.

It's called CONTROL.

[thomasohare2]

Does he not know that ever single fight stops after you land one reverse punch to your opponents chest.

LOL

[MAfanatic]

I think if you really think that a good punch would stop anyone, you are sadly mistaken. With adrenaline running, people had been shot in the chest adn still kept moving. I have seen karateka fight MMA or full contact spar. They looked OK, but they quickly realized that a reverse punch will not be a 'one strike one kill.' To break a man down, you must strike in combination and set him up for KO. I would say that a Many Paquia fighter at 145lbs can destroy any of these heavier karateka

[thomasohare2]

I see you understand sarcasm when you see it haha. And none said this is fighting, ITS A SPORT!!!!

[stardingo747]

OOOOOUUUUUUUCCHHHHH

at 10 seconds did the guy on the right stomp his opponent's foot!?

[moelicious1]

What? No prepubescent wannabe has said MMA is the only real fighting art yet? Because all us karate "dudes" need to recognize the ultimate in mindless thug fighting! Wanted to get that out there before the masses do :)

[MAfanatic]

MMA is NOT real fighting. I have met some top MMA fighters and none of them claimed to be 'street fighters' or 'ancient warriors.' It is a sport. But it is a sport that allows for any martial artist to enter and fight under minimal rules. No other martial arts competion allows for that. Even the men in this video could fight MMA to trully test if one strike does end in one kill.

[wetnwild001]

How can MMA test anything? In MMA there are gloves, there are rules, you can't kick someone in the balls, you can't bite anyone's ear off, you can't even hit someone in the back of his head! How can this be used to test if something is efficient at a real situation?

[gyp19861986]

toki1221, in the first place, it is not a sport, it is a discipline. Second, it is evident that you have no bloody idea of what CONTROL means. Someone aware of martial arts would know that shotokan is the technique used for distance combats, and that Judo is the technique used for combat in a closer range. Senseis all over the world know this principle and combine both techniques when fighting in a real situation. You, my friend, know nothing about shotokan

[toki1221]

Shotokan is not effective to a real combat. It is only a touch game and sport.

[lobonegro4]

maybe you say this because you only get to see competion shotokan, and also must clubs only train for sport and not for self defense which is a shame because when you do that is not karate. You have to do both sport and traditional which involves a lot of self-defense i.e. pressure point fighting. Also I like to inform you of why Funakoshi was so opposed to kumite...he knew how deadly karate was and having tournaments would cause deaths, and since we are not blody animals...

[toki1221]

The reason why Funakoshi was opposed to Kumite was that he hated to teach Japanese mainlanders how to fight because he was betrayed by Kano, Karate was likely to be part of Judo and besides, he was poor at Kumite (he was only 150cm). In fact, Shotokan lost to Gojuryu in Ritsumeikan hugely and he decided to bann Kumite. But his pupil Nakayama created non-contacting Kumite like that, it's true. I'm Japanese.

[lobonegro4]

Thank you toki I have heard many stories regarding Funakoshi and I can understand his dislike to the japanese,since japanese have considered okinawans less than them.Also is interesting to hear that he had a falling out with Kano i don't understand the betrayal part though.Judo was always intended as a sport jutsu.Also I don't think that his height would have made that much of a difference.And thank God for Nakayama,thanks to him we have today this modern dynamic sport

[toki1221]

Kano of Judo invited Funakoshi and let him to teach Karate to Kano's pupils, so Judo-gi and Karate-gi are almost the same. Kano tried to make Karate a part of Judo, but Funakoshi was shocked to hear that and refused it. As you know, Karate was invented in Okinawa and in fact, they don't fight like that in Okinawa. That is only the sport made by Nakayama.

[lobonegro4]

True, the okinawans still follow the traditional method of fighting which is very ground base,not too much movement,and sometimes even a little grappling,but less remember also that Sokon bubishi Matsumura who was japanese and a samurai desendant provided a lot of influence to karate.Nakayama modernaize karate by using the scientific approach to sport training,other styles have even gone further by making it more dynamic even still.

[toki1221]

Sun-Dome (non-contacting style like the vid) is only a touch and can't punch and kick with a huge impact, I think.

[gneo3]

what does you being japanese have to do with anything? No, seriously?

[medaaa]

JKA is very effektive !

[gneo3]

I see...hmm...I got it! Go find an honest to god shotokan practicioner(woman or man) with experience and fight them. If thats not good enough for you, come fight me at I.S.K.F. hombu dojo in philly. After class, no rules, no refs. just me and you :)

[nlimnj]

Excellent shotokan, true to the spirit of its unarmed originators on Okinawa. Strike a single "killing" blow against armed Japanese samurai or Western gaijin, maim/disable/kill/stun, run away and disappear. No grappling, no rounds of boxing, no groundfighting. Shotokan, shito-ryu, and other Japanese hard styles were developed for a specific tactical situation.

[cuttingedge840749]

karate has always been used for self defense. the techniques and the principles you will learn in this martial art are derived from the times when the okinawan's are harrased by some opressive samurai, do you think running from the attacker is a bad option especially when you manage to land a strike just to save your life? do you think your MMA skills going to save your sorry dumb ass during those turbulent times? are you going to grapple or clinch a swordman with a variety of bladed weapons?

[maoswidow]

you best move away as quickly as possible, after you score, i've seen guys stand in there and had their jaw broke. one even died on the floor after a late kick in the head, but they revived him. so you be the judge.

[mokemi85]

I like this style than new style now..

[openmicsurgery]

run away? no stay there and get hit by the other guy...that's smart huh? effing dope.

[Aiolosz]

I'm glad to hear that!

[Aiolosz]

Hmm... that man runed away... that is karate??? Take a point and run?

[dbzmania80]

this is shotoka. karate has various style/ryuha, so this is NOT all.

[mancunianforever]

stupid.

[mancunianforever]

yes this is karate, and the running away part was because he knew he already scored, dumbass.

[Aiolosz]

well score one, and run away... see some kyo or harder style. They show you what's karate...

[lobonegro4]

listen don't get kyo involve on this shit they have a whole different system and way of doing things...By the way when was the last time that you saw punches to the face allowed in kyokushin.Right? So please don't get kyo involve, kyo is one way and shoto is another...Now if you would have said Daido juku ok,but I think the shoto guys would have done ok. after some familiarization of course

[oghabealborz]

Excellent display of karate as it is meant to be ..

[xlilmixedup33x]

man Kagawa is a beast. he actually came down to MD once awhile ago to teach our class (im northern VA but i practiced in MD too). i'm probly the luckiest guy in the world lol he actually touched my arm when helping me out n i dont think i washed it for a month ahaha

[Champollion881124]

Gut!!!~~

[jamboni]

kool stuff.

i like the way Kagawa ran away after getting that point lol. I h8 wen opponents do that, its so cocky lol, especially wen the other competitor is still standin ther asif nothing happend, becos ther was no power.

its nice to come away with a few bruises and lumps - hehe

[kylefunakoshi]

Refreshing as Green tea!

[themaniusedtob]

clean kumite this is traditional shotokan done the way it should be done by focusing on basics

[ravenTJ1979]

Unless you want to learn to fight.

Then you do Muay Thai to lean important thing like clicnh and link your attacks.

Or better train mma.

[vladimirator]

Excellent video. Win or lose, it's all excellent.

[chensytion]

Awesome awesome fight!

[dfonseca08]

Does the judge of the second fight is Tetsuhiko Asai?

[unag]

Yes, it was the late Mr. Asai.

[R0CKY44]

Is that Kagawa fighting with a broken hand?!

[dmac1920]

Yes.