Right, if someone goes vegetarian, they must be against animal cruelty. Therefor you should just be a vegan. I don't think so. I'm all for stopping animal cruelty and I think changing how the whole industry works would be a good idea. But it'll be a cold day in hell when I go vegetarian or vegan. lol
@urantivirus I believe that I said, IF a person is vegetarian BECAUSE they are against animal cruelty, then they should be vegan too. Obviously there are other scenarios outside of that conditional statement. Such as a person who is vegetarian for other reasons. Or a person who is against animal cruelty but chooses to not change their diet.
I've read that book before and I am fairly certain a lot of it talks about eating local, humanly treated animals. such as the turkey farm. I have been a vegetarian for a year and I plan on eating meat again but only if it is locally grown/humanly killed. You should look into this.
I believe there are (albeit probably negligible) physiological benefits to ingesting certain animal fats and proteins, over non-animal varieties. But I think you severely underrate the pursuit of pleasure, whether it be in the form of experiencing art, or experiencing food. Eating good food is among the most wonderful things we are able to do in this human experience, in my opinion. Veganism limits that. That said, trying out veganism will, at any rate, likely be a positive experience for you.
I'm actually reading this right now, about halfway through.
Since my parents didn't force me to eat my veggies as a youngling (not their fault, just my stubbornness) I eat almost exclusively animal products. I wanted to share the misfortune of a diet such as mine.
Much as vegans' bodies reject meat, mine rejects vegetable matter. A vegan will throw up if fed steak. I thought I could even try a transition, a vegan pizza, but that just caused me to vomit for eight hours without stopping.
My family hunts and they kill animals humanely. If animals were not killed and everyone in the world were vegans we would have an overpopulation of animals that would need to be killed because of lack of occupy-able space/crops vital for human existence. Crops are a big deal, and with an overpopulation of animals, our crops would become less and less, therefore forcing us to once again kill animals.
@LacieAmaiKoi Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the ecosystem regulated itself and got on just fine for billions of years with out any human intervention.
That said, I'm not at all against you hunting. I'm against the meat industry. Getting rid of the meat industry wouldn't result in more animals, it would result in less. We would stop creating billions of animals for our consumption every year.
@thepeteris I know what you mean and I do agree. The meat industry is the worst, and I think that if people want to eat meat they should hunt it and clean it and all that. It definitely puts things into perspective. I believe that if the hunters who hunt for there families were gone, we would not be able to grow crops effectively and due to lack of crops, food prices would rocket. For a family as big as mine (6 people) with one full-time parent and one part-time parent, that's a big issue.
@pattyshelby It's relieving sure, but when they are forced to have calfs so that they do produce milk is absurd, We are forcing them to be in pain. with eggs the chickens are packed so tight they cant even move, and once they are past a year old they are sent to be killed because they don't produce as much. get your facts straight bud.
There are animals raised and killed in very humane conditions, as well as some eggs are made without torturing the chicken (but it is more than twice more expensive)
Animals do not experience pain the same way
Eating meat, fish, eggs is good and the nutrients,vitamins and proteins found in it are essential for survival.
It tastes good.
It's what we ate since the begining of times. our body is shaped so we can eat that way. am sure there will be a scientific discovery about that soon.
@newgateway1 insulting? way to go! that's what i call a civilized debate.
We have not TORTURED animal forever, the whole bad condition thing is pretty recent, and that's what we should stop. Eating animals is not bad, go try and turn a lion vegan.
@eviatkin you want a debate but your main argument was tradition? You need to learn how to debate first. If you read my other posts you would know that I agree with what you were saying, just not how you were saying it anyway. And animals have nerves, they feel pain, who are you to say how they experience it, have you ever been a cow? didn't think so.
@newgateway1 If you read MY argument well, it is not tradition but evolution. We have evolved eating animals since forever which means we are biologically constructed to eat animals. We have evolved to have the teeth to tear appart meat, the digestive system do digest meat and so on. Research has been done in the field and it has been proved over and over that meat may not be VITAL, but very good for certain aspects, especially for kids.
There is a perfectly good argument for eating animals, and its nutritional. Good meat, fish, and poultry can be a strong addition to a diet, and are excellent sources of fats and acids that are hard to obtain otherwise.
However. We DEFINITELY shouldnt be able to head down to Mc Donalds for a dollar hamburger, and we shouldn't be able to get taco meat for pennies a pound. Meat doesn't belong in fast food. Period.
I am a vegan, and I sincerely enjoyed listening to you speak intelligently and thoughtfully about this topic. My main reason for being vegan is to avoid harming animals, and after watching this I realize I do tend to imagine animals thinking and experiencing in a very human way, which they likely don't. Still, as you touch on in the end, even if the pain is different, it's still there to some degree, and there are many other things we can eat besides animals.
@alyiswriting I'm actually still in the transition to becoming vegan in the first place. Which is not to say that I took it really slow and easy in switching over. I stopped buying non-vegan stuff immediately, I was just stocked up on some stuff, that I'm still working my way through. Namely Ramen. I should be done with all that by the end of this month though. But I've been eating about 95% vegan, save for those few lingering items. It's actually been pretty enjoyable.
@alyiswriting A vegan diet may be hard to balance, but a truly healthy vegan diet is nearly impossible. Make sure you get your fats, or else you'll be at a much higher risk of stroke.
@jsutkissmyfrog That is a very good question that I hadn't really though of.
I think I'll say yes. Because the alternative, would be human testing, or having untested products. If I'm choosing between human pain animal pain, I'll take animal. There's actually a good reason and a benefit to the testing.
That said, I have no idea what that industry is actually like. Maybe there is a better way, and it's an unsustainable system similar to factory farming. I should look into it. Thank you.
can you follow up reading this book by reading "Animals make Us Human"? this is a brilliant and highly supported book and you might change your perspective after reading it.
Also, how fucking ThePeterIsPretentious is it of you to decide to be vegan not because of the, shall we say, conventional reason of being opposed to animal cruelty, but because you simply can't think of a reason TO eat it (which, let's face it, is just you saying, "fuck you, society, I'm so much smarter").
Just to point out, a lot of pescetarians aren't pescetarians because they're against animal cruelty, but rather because it's just a whole lot healthier to eat fish exclusively than it is to eat all other meat.
Humans are animals and of course other animals, like dogs, are aware like humans. No they are not as free from instinct as us and they don't have the ability to use tools but they react to many situations in the same way as us. Animals die earlier if they are depressed. This depression can be cause by loneliness or lack of positive attention. Animals become more aggressive if they are beaten often. Animals become jealous. We are no more important than animals. We are made of the same energy.
I'm against animal cruelty, but understand that the ways the some animals are killed is very humane and more so then how some people are forced to die. I would also like to note that I'm not trying to upset you and I completely respect your viewpoint. One thing I would like is tips on being vegan.
@Zelesnikar101 Where are you getting that information? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'd really like to know. Where did you hear that? According to the book, that's not the case at all. The lives and deaths of animals on factory farms is FAR from humane. But seriously, maybe the author overlooked something. Show me what you are talking about.
@thepeteris Not to speak for someone else, but I think Zelesnikar101 is referring to eating free range and grass fed animals that are humanely raised and killed, which is a pretty valid life choice.
@thepeteris I want to make it clear that i can not account for every animal farm in existence, but I can back up what I said based on what I have seen first hand. My parents own a small farm and have been on numerous trips across the country and have been to large farms in which cattle are raised for one purpose, the production of beef products. From what they have told me the cows on these farms live their lives like any other cow on a typical farm and when it comes time for them to be put
@thepeteris My parents own a small farm and are part of the cattleman's association. Every year they go on a trip to a large cattle farm to see how they run their operation. What they have described to me is that the cows on these farms live their lives just as they would on a small farm like me parents have. When it comes time for the animals to be put down they are done so in such a way that they feel nothing. This only applies to cows, so I can not say this is so for chickens, pigs, etc.
@thepeteris Yeah, I think you're right about the industry being broken, I was thinking more about our biology not being broken in terms of meat. I agree that we should eat less meat, but we should still eat some to maintain the diet balance humans have always had.
I feel I should leave a comment more intelligent than my last, but the truth is I don't know much about the subject. Whether I should eat animals is something I have always known will require serious critical evaluation, but I keep putting it off. It's a tough question because there's so much contradictory information out there and I just haven't gotten around to digesting it all yet, if you'll pardon the pun. I think I'll put this on my reading list.
Thankyou Peter, this video made me happy- it is nice to see people making consious informed decisions about what they eat/consume. Also on the milk front I'm pretty sure you'll be fine - I used to love milk and drink masses of the stuff but strangley I haven't craved it since the first couple of months giving it up. Just make sure you try lots of new foods and find new foods you love as much.
I've always taken a liking to the Denis Leary line of thinking that eating meat is an instinct and not eating meat is a choice. But then, it's probably not good to base your dietary choices on what a stand-up comedian/actor has to say on the subject.
@taylahboone In theory, free range milk/eggs/meat would be fine, but according to the book, those terms are nearly always empty marketing by the companies, and don't actually mean that the animal had any better of a life. Not to mention, I'm more concerned with the pollution and expense and whatnot, than the animals life anyway. To be sure, I'd have to buy directly from farmers, or do lots of research or something, which is probably more effort than it's worth.
YES! I get a little annoyed when vegetarians who say that they can't stand animal cruelty still eat animal byproducts. That still creates a demand for animals to be used and to suffer.
And there are too many people to feed. We have to efficiantly feed ourselves and that involves treating animals like a commodity. Also, I don't see how tasting an animal is really art. Yes, you do cook them in fancy ways, but in the end you still need to eat.
I'm a vegetarian, and I can tell you that I go out of my way to only consume animal products that leave the animal happy and safe!
As far as pescetarianism, fish don't actually feel 'pain'. Avoiding the consumption of fish on the basis of the pain that they feel is like avoiding eating vegetables for the same reasons.
I find people are against vegetarianism/veganism purely because it's 'different'. Most of my friends think it's strange what I do, and dislike the fact I do it. I don't get it!
The main reasoning I can think of in favour of eating meat is that biologically, humans are omnivores. While it is indeed possible to live healthily without meat, it is much easier to do so with the aid of meat. Humans have eaten meat since they evolved, and while we do eat too much of it nowadays, my view is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
--it REALLY bothers me when people care MORE about animals, then they do people.
--ALSO (haha, here I thought this was going to be short XD)
Ik I've told you before, I'm a Christian, and (idr WHERE the Bible says it exactly) I'm pretty sure that God put animals, or at least MOST of the animals, on earth for us to eat.... Idr any verses saying that animals are our equals XD.
Have you ever heard someone say something along the lines of (Meaning, they have a really bad memory XD), "He/She is like a chicken, he/she wakes up in a new world everday." Ik that's not a FACT, but that kinda gets my point across (in a very very short way) I really don't feel TOO strongly about this, but I do feel pretty strongly about animals being cruely tortured for enjoyment/art/(w/e you want to call it). THAT is awful.
-I agree (Especially w/ the end), but in some ways, I disagree w/ the beginning.
-I don't have a problem w/ eating animals (in general). Would I eat a dog? Absolutely not. Why not? I own three puppies. How is that different from eating a chicken? I think dogs have a little bit more of an understanding of what's going on around them then chickens do.
@iLeaveYouWithHugs How do you warrant killing (and before that; torturing) a creature with low intelligence, but not a creature with a high intelligence? What about cows, or sheep? Surely they'd have just as high an IQ as your average dog. And by your reasoning, should one be more justified in killing a mentally retarded man, than they are in killing an able bodied human? Just because a creature isn't as 'aware', doesn't mean it can't live a full and happy life!
While I sort of agree with you on the moral standpoint, I myself have no problem with eating meat, there is a logical argument of health.
The conditions in which factory farms raise their animals have created outbreaks of Ecoli simply because the very easy measures that can be taken to ensure that these animals lead healthy lives, and actually eat something their digestive systems was designed to eat. That being said, in doing this, we would be unintentionally having them lead "better" lives.
i suggest you read primal blue print or refer to mark sisson's blog before becoming vegan. many arguments about human nutrition and about the ecological costs of eating meat are based on the industry as it stands- a means to subsidize farmers who raise grain products. its a different story if we're talking about pastured, free range animals who are not eating grains themselves.
@blkfrhwk I agree entirely. But the amount of meat available to me in the supermarket that is NOT from factory farms is almost negligible. The problem is, that with the amount of meat the market is currently demanding, the only way to supply it is through factory farms. To get back to traditional pasture based methods we'd have to drastically reduce our intake.
@thepeteris this may depend on where you live. we have a farmers market where we talk to the ranchers in person. it is a bit more expensive than meat in the grocery store, but then we are not eating any grains so it evens out. like every other decision we make as modern day americans, deciding on the best nutrition plan requires a lot of research and seeking out sources other than traditional supermarkets.
My brother became a vegan not too long ago, and his reasoning is that he believes that the concept is interesting, and without actually becoming one, it would be a thought that passes through his mind and he would forget about it. By becoming a vegan, it requires him to consider it before every meal or snack, making it necessary to ponder the topic more often and more thoroughly. I thought that was an interesting reason.
I have a friend that just tells people she's vegetarian because she can't stomach steak or pork or most meats. She has no moral dilemma over the issue, she just prefers not to puke after every meal so she's vegetarian now. And I think I may become one of those people who are vegetarian for the sake of practicality, meat is really expensive.
@OMGTHERERNONAMESAAGH Yeah, even before reading this book, I was already eating about 20% of the meat that used to eat when my parents bought my food, just because it's cheaper.
don't eat animals cause I can't kill them myself or view the slaughtering of the animals I would potentially eat, and I don't think anyone who can't do so, should. I've been to Albania and watched cows slaughtered on the street and have much more respect for that peoples' connection with their food, and also for hunters who eat what they kill themselves. also i eat free range eggs and organic whole milk sometimes,and yes brands are suspect sometimes, but i've been doing this a lot longer than u
I think mistreating animals is morally wrong. I believe many higher functioning animals probably do have some form of consciousness, akin perhaps to new born babies. Eating them is OK with me as long as they are treated while alive and suffering is kept to a minimum when they are killed.
@johnetie Then I'd recommend you read the book. Because according to the research he did, an almost negligible portion of the meat available for us to buy would fit your standards.
@thepeteris I don't need to read this book to know that. Information is everywhere. I'm a big hypocrite though being mostly unwilling to give up my lifestyle and such. I do forgo veal which seem especially egregious as animal raising practices go... oh, and foie gras.
I will be rereading the next book with you. On the road is one of my favorites and it has been too long since my last time through it. BTW I'm a vegetarian based on the environmental issues on the topic.
I agree with you on the point that we cannot accurately measure the consciousness of animals, but that it is safe to assume that it is lower than humans. I live on a farm with about 70 cattle, so I can say this from experience. Sometimes, a cow will forget it has given birth withing minutes and completely abandon its newborn child ( which is something that is actually going on right now, since we are in the middle of calving season). I cannot see any animal with such low capacity for motherhood
@Throrindor being able to consciously evalute any experience it has.
Not only this, but I am considering becoming vegetarian/vegan as well. Not for any moral reasons, of course, and instead simply practical ones, such as the cultivation of discipline (I really do enjoy meat) and the global economic/environment benefit of lowering my consumption of animal products and advocating the same to others.
Actually, there is one argument I can think of. That is for people with special conditions like anemia where being vegan would upset one's recommended extra iron intake. A friend of a friend apparently was on doctor's orders to eat red meat twice a week.
@TheMinuteVlog Would iron supplements not work? Or just...other foods high in iron? I won't deny that meat is a convenient source of many vitamins. But as far as I know, there isn't really anything vital that's exclusively found in meat. Correct me if I'm wrong.
@TheMinuteVlog I have a friend who was anemic and improved his condition hugely by eating high iron foods like grains, beans and pulses and dark green veggies. Actually, the majority of high iron foods are vegan, I'm not sure where this myth came from? Anyways, meat is certainly not the only source.
I'm a vegetarian who always tries to eat cage-free eggs. I agree with the pain thing, but it still makes me feel very uncomfortable to think of torturing and destroying conscious beings.
I don't think there's an argument for eating animals in this day and age. Collecting things like eggs and milk isn't immoral, but it is in the way we do it with factory farms and whatnot.
Make sure you don't accidentally get something like chicken broth. It can make you sick after being veg a while.
@TheMinuteVlog If you can, try to research whatever brand you are buying and find out what exactly "cage free" means. Chances are, you won't be able to find out much. According to the book, the industry tries pretty hard to keep stuff secret. And there aren't any sort of regulations on terms like "cage free". It's likely that it's just empty marketing and doesn't actually mean the chickens have it any better off.
The thing is, that no matter which way you decide to swing, be it meat or vegetarian, today's way of life requires massive factories and massive farms with genetically modified crops for mass output because families and communities aren't raising their food and growing crops themselves. As far as health goes, it's bad business all around.
Sometime in college, I decided that instead of going strictly vegetarian or vegan, that I would instead cut down on meat. Specifically red meat. Greasy foods upset my stomach anyway. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I change my diet, it's for me and not about the animals or what everyone else is doing.
Humans don't really have the digestive system required for getting all the nutrients they require from a vegan diet (eg.Vit. B12). Humans are omnivorous. We can obtain it through supplements, but naturally we are supposed to eat both. The vegan diet is not environmentally perfect either, a lot of forests are burned down for farming. Also, think of the domestic fowl population now and if humans were herbivorous. They would have been extinct by now.
@NowWeAreAllTom Ah, I had to watch the video to check what you were talking about. I had completely forgotten that I did that. I meant to annotate it too. I have done so now, I am glad you reminded me.
I dont know why exactly, but this video makes me very uncomfortable. I feel like it is wrong in some way, yet i cannot find that many of your arguments are invalid in any way, so feel i am forced to accept them. I suppose it exposes the contradictory nature of human kind, but I suppose i would rather be comforted by the lovely blanket of unthinking. I like animals and i dont want to hurt them yet I still see nothing wrong than eating them??? uuuuuuurrgh.
@MonsterUnderYourB3d This was just a very small taste of what the book is like. I didn't even touch upon any of the gruesome details. And yeah, that's the thing. Most people at least have some idea that the meat industry isn't pretty. But we're content just to put it aside and not think about it. It's easier that way.
@thepeteris Death isn't pretty. But people think that going vegan is better than fighting to change the way animals husbandry now runs. Going vegan works at an individual level and can't do much good. Dr.Temple Grandin has worked on methods that make animal husbandry humane as well as more profitable. But I guess, people are just lazy. So are governments. It would take so much time to educate people in the meat industry! Let's just do nothing!
@LearningFeather Not everyone has industry contacts and knowledge to be able to make changes as Temple is doing. But everyone knows how to buy groceries for themselves, and choosing to exclude meat and dairy is helping. It lessens the demand for meat. And when conversations are brought up about the change in diet, information will be passed and meat-eaters might see that they, too, want to change. So the masses lessening the demand, along with the few creating humane methods should do well.
@MonsterUnderYourB3d This is the viewpoint of most of my meat-eating friends, when I talk about my vegetarianism. They find the moral conflict frustrating, and dislike it when I bring it up. xD
I definitely have an issue with killing a dog for pleasure or killing a dog that is not yours. However, if a group of people consume dogs for basic consumption.
Animals eat each other.. We are no exception. Although I agree with why vegens won't eat animals. I think people should only eat the meat that they forge for themselves (although I'm a huge hipocrit for saying this.) If you hunt it, you worked for it, you earned it, and there's a lot less suffering there.
@ckXcore Well obviously it's wrong if the dog isn't yours. But that's just a matter of theft/vandalism. Even though everyone eats beef today, we still know it'd be wrong to go out shooting cows on someone else's farm.
And yeah, the biggest problem is the factory farming methods. If animals were raised in natural environments on farms the way they were 100 years ago, that'd solve a lot of the problems. But that system produces much less meat, so we need to lessen our demand.
@thepeteris The oddity is, though, that there wasn't any less of a demand 100 years. And still, even by 1911, the industrial revolution had been in full swing for over a hundred years. It's around that time that our standards of living began to rapidly evolve into what they are today. Go back further than that, and the demand for meat was still probably the same. But like you say, the methods were different. That's because life was different.
@hidinginthecerealbox You're saying demand hasn't gone up? I'm fairly certain it has. For one thing, the global population has doubled in the last 30 years alone. But on top of that, on a per-capita basis, people are eating more meat today than ever before. As standards of living have gone up, more people can afford it.
@thepeteris Ok, on a wide scale because of population increase, yes there is a higher demand. And as far as per-capita goes, single out those that could afford meat back then, and everyone that can afford meat today. Is there really that big of an increase in how much meat, or milk eggs etc, each individual eats?
This video is very eloquent. I have been thinking about this book lately too and was thinking about becoming vegetarian for the same reasons you're thinking of becoming vegan over the summer. Although vegan would be better, I drink a lot of milk and eat many dairy products. At least the smaller step of vegetarianism is starting somewhere and could allow me to learn how to be vegan without it feeling too difficult.
@RileyAndCompany Totally agreed that some cutback is better than none. And yeah, eggs and dairy products are going to be the toughest part for me. I love milk SO much. I think I can quit though. I doubt I'll ever be completely dairy free though. With something like chocolate, it'd be real hard for me to say no just because of that tiny bit of milk.
It's all happenstance.....I'm sure there was a homo-sapien strolling along foraging when he came upon a half-eaten sabre-tooth chicken and ate it himself.....same for cooking meat.....very likely it was by accident that a unnoticed chunk of meat fell in the campfire and the caveman said "Dude.....mmmm tasty"
I like that you brought up the fact that there is not argument FOR meat (except for taste and it being "natural") and that you're going to stop it for pure logical reasons. I know people who do it for moral reason, health reasons, environmental reasons, or, just because it is "gross". With the population going the way it is, we really need to start being smarter about our food choices. We don't worry about food enough, considering that it is something so vital to everything we do.
I have this book and was meaning to finish it to respond to this, but alas, I'm stuck in another one of your book club books (The Virgin Suicides).
I'm already a flexible vegetarian, and from the quarter I have read of Eating Animals, it did make me want to go vegan, for the moral reasons. I might still make a response arguing what really constitutes suffering.
Right, if someone goes vegetarian, they must be against animal cruelty. Therefor you should just be a vegan. I don't think so. I'm all for stopping animal cruelty and I think changing how the whole industry works would be a good idea. But it'll be a cold day in hell when I go vegetarian or vegan. lol
Animals eat animals, get over it.
urantivirus 3 months ago
@urantivirus I believe that I said, IF a person is vegetarian BECAUSE they are against animal cruelty, then they should be vegan too. Obviously there are other scenarios outside of that conditional statement. Such as a person who is vegetarian for other reasons. Or a person who is against animal cruelty but chooses to not change their diet.
thepeteris 3 months ago
I havent eaten meat in over a Year Im healthy
elmolly93 8 months ago
I've read that book before and I am fairly certain a lot of it talks about eating local, humanly treated animals. such as the turkey farm. I have been a vegetarian for a year and I plan on eating meat again but only if it is locally grown/humanly killed. You should look into this.
newgateway1 8 months ago
I believe there are (albeit probably negligible) physiological benefits to ingesting certain animal fats and proteins, over non-animal varieties. But I think you severely underrate the pursuit of pleasure, whether it be in the form of experiencing art, or experiencing food. Eating good food is among the most wonderful things we are able to do in this human experience, in my opinion. Veganism limits that. That said, trying out veganism will, at any rate, likely be a positive experience for you.
the1janitor 8 months ago
I'm actually reading this right now, about halfway through.
Since my parents didn't force me to eat my veggies as a youngling (not their fault, just my stubbornness) I eat almost exclusively animal products. I wanted to share the misfortune of a diet such as mine.
Much as vegans' bodies reject meat, mine rejects vegetable matter. A vegan will throw up if fed steak. I thought I could even try a transition, a vegan pizza, but that just caused me to vomit for eight hours without stopping.
SpaceAndrew 8 months ago
Yo Finda, I like your mind.
ceetor1110 8 months ago
My family hunts and they kill animals humanely. If animals were not killed and everyone in the world were vegans we would have an overpopulation of animals that would need to be killed because of lack of occupy-able space/crops vital for human existence. Crops are a big deal, and with an overpopulation of animals, our crops would become less and less, therefore forcing us to once again kill animals.
LacieAmaiKoi 8 months ago
@LacieAmaiKoi Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the ecosystem regulated itself and got on just fine for billions of years with out any human intervention.
That said, I'm not at all against you hunting. I'm against the meat industry. Getting rid of the meat industry wouldn't result in more animals, it would result in less. We would stop creating billions of animals for our consumption every year.
thepeteris 8 months ago
@thepeteris I know what you mean and I do agree. The meat industry is the worst, and I think that if people want to eat meat they should hunt it and clean it and all that. It definitely puts things into perspective. I believe that if the hunters who hunt for there families were gone, we would not be able to grow crops effectively and due to lack of crops, food prices would rocket. For a family as big as mine (6 people) with one full-time parent and one part-time parent, that's a big issue.
LacieAmaiKoi 8 months ago
actually it is reliving to the cow to get milked.
also it is reliving to a chicken to lay an egg.
also they choose the egg by if there is a living organism in it or not.
pattyshelby 9 months ago
@pattyshelby It's relieving sure, but when they are forced to have calfs so that they do produce milk is absurd, We are forcing them to be in pain. with eggs the chickens are packed so tight they cant even move, and once they are past a year old they are sent to be killed because they don't produce as much. get your facts straight bud.
newgateway1 8 months ago
There are animals raised and killed in very humane conditions, as well as some eggs are made without torturing the chicken (but it is more than twice more expensive)
Animals do not experience pain the same way
Eating meat, fish, eggs is good and the nutrients,vitamins and proteins found in it are essential for survival.
It tastes good.
It's what we ate since the begining of times. our body is shaped so we can eat that way. am sure there will be a scientific discovery about that soon.
eviatkin 9 months ago
@eviatkin what a good reason, we've eaten that way forever why stop? fucking idiot.
newgateway1 8 months ago
@newgateway1 insulting? way to go! that's what i call a civilized debate.
We have not TORTURED animal forever, the whole bad condition thing is pretty recent, and that's what we should stop. Eating animals is not bad, go try and turn a lion vegan.
eviatkin 8 months ago
@eviatkin you want a debate but your main argument was tradition? You need to learn how to debate first. If you read my other posts you would know that I agree with what you were saying, just not how you were saying it anyway. And animals have nerves, they feel pain, who are you to say how they experience it, have you ever been a cow? didn't think so.
newgateway1 8 months ago
@newgateway1 If you read MY argument well, it is not tradition but evolution. We have evolved eating animals since forever which means we are biologically constructed to eat animals. We have evolved to have the teeth to tear appart meat, the digestive system do digest meat and so on. Research has been done in the field and it has been proved over and over that meat may not be VITAL, but very good for certain aspects, especially for kids.
eviatkin 8 months ago
Comment removed
eviatkin 8 months ago
There is a perfectly good argument for eating animals, and its nutritional. Good meat, fish, and poultry can be a strong addition to a diet, and are excellent sources of fats and acids that are hard to obtain otherwise.
However. We DEFINITELY shouldnt be able to head down to Mc Donalds for a dollar hamburger, and we shouldn't be able to get taco meat for pennies a pound. Meat doesn't belong in fast food. Period.
ZacksEnder 9 months ago
not eating meat isnt just about not participating in animal cruelty. its called h e a l t h. look into it.
msezyrider 9 months ago
I am a vegan, and I sincerely enjoyed listening to you speak intelligently and thoughtfully about this topic. My main reason for being vegan is to avoid harming animals, and after watching this I realize I do tend to imagine animals thinking and experiencing in a very human way, which they likely don't. Still, as you touch on in the end, even if the pain is different, it's still there to some degree, and there are many other things we can eat besides animals.
Are you still vegan(ish) now?
alyiswriting 10 months ago
@alyiswriting I'm actually still in the transition to becoming vegan in the first place. Which is not to say that I took it really slow and easy in switching over. I stopped buying non-vegan stuff immediately, I was just stocked up on some stuff, that I'm still working my way through. Namely Ramen. I should be done with all that by the end of this month though. But I've been eating about 95% vegan, save for those few lingering items. It's actually been pretty enjoyable.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@alyiswriting A vegan diet may be hard to balance, but a truly healthy vegan diet is nearly impossible. Make sure you get your fats, or else you'll be at a much higher risk of stroke.
ZacksEnder 9 months ago
I would really like to read this book!
question: are you also gunna stop buying products tested on animals then? soap, shaving foam, etc?
jsutkissmyfrog 10 months ago
@jsutkissmyfrog That is a very good question that I hadn't really though of.
I think I'll say yes. Because the alternative, would be human testing, or having untested products. If I'm choosing between human pain animal pain, I'll take animal. There's actually a good reason and a benefit to the testing.
That said, I have no idea what that industry is actually like. Maybe there is a better way, and it's an unsustainable system similar to factory farming. I should look into it. Thank you.
thepeteris 10 months ago
i need to read this book, and i have it and why don't i read it already dflhafhkrega.
lazy bum me.
iliveonplanetspace 10 months ago
I notice you have some sort of framed certificate on your wall.
This means that you've succeeded at something.
Congratulations!
Harnaschmacher 10 months ago 4
can you follow up reading this book by reading "Animals make Us Human"? this is a brilliant and highly supported book and you might change your perspective after reading it.
earlgreytempest 10 months ago
Also, how fucking ThePeterIsPretentious is it of you to decide to be vegan not because of the, shall we say, conventional reason of being opposed to animal cruelty, but because you simply can't think of a reason TO eat it (which, let's face it, is just you saying, "fuck you, society, I'm so much smarter").
JustMargaret 10 months ago
Just to point out, a lot of pescetarians aren't pescetarians because they're against animal cruelty, but rather because it's just a whole lot healthier to eat fish exclusively than it is to eat all other meat.
JustMargaret 10 months ago
So you're becoming a vegan, huh? Enjoy your psychic powers.
CrAzYcHiCa428 10 months ago
Humans are animals and of course other animals, like dogs, are aware like humans. No they are not as free from instinct as us and they don't have the ability to use tools but they react to many situations in the same way as us. Animals die earlier if they are depressed. This depression can be cause by loneliness or lack of positive attention. Animals become more aggressive if they are beaten often. Animals become jealous. We are no more important than animals. We are made of the same energy.
HomeOnASaturdayNight 10 months ago
I'm against animal cruelty, but understand that the ways the some animals are killed is very humane and more so then how some people are forced to die. I would also like to note that I'm not trying to upset you and I completely respect your viewpoint. One thing I would like is tips on being vegan.
Zelesnikar101 10 months ago
@Zelesnikar101 Where are you getting that information? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'd really like to know. Where did you hear that? According to the book, that's not the case at all. The lives and deaths of animals on factory farms is FAR from humane. But seriously, maybe the author overlooked something. Show me what you are talking about.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@thepeteris Not to speak for someone else, but I think Zelesnikar101 is referring to eating free range and grass fed animals that are humanely raised and killed, which is a pretty valid life choice.
RancidAppleProducts 10 months ago
@thepeteris I want to make it clear that i can not account for every animal farm in existence, but I can back up what I said based on what I have seen first hand. My parents own a small farm and have been on numerous trips across the country and have been to large farms in which cattle are raised for one purpose, the production of beef products. From what they have told me the cows on these farms live their lives like any other cow on a typical farm and when it comes time for them to be put
Zelesnikar101 10 months ago
@thepeteris My parents own a small farm and are part of the cattleman's association. Every year they go on a trip to a large cattle farm to see how they run their operation. What they have described to me is that the cows on these farms live their lives just as they would on a small farm like me parents have. When it comes time for the animals to be put down they are done so in such a way that they feel nothing. This only applies to cows, so I can not say this is so for chickens, pigs, etc.
Zelesnikar101 10 months ago
I enjoyed this greatly--very insightful.
THANK YOU for pointing out how ridiculous partial-vegetarianism and pescatarianism is. THANK YOU.
katherinifyable 10 months ago
@thepeteris Yeah, I think you're right about the industry being broken, I was thinking more about our biology not being broken in terms of meat. I agree that we should eat less meat, but we should still eat some to maintain the diet balance humans have always had.
WillsOdyssey 10 months ago
I feel I should leave a comment more intelligent than my last, but the truth is I don't know much about the subject. Whether I should eat animals is something I have always known will require serious critical evaluation, but I keep putting it off. It's a tough question because there's so much contradictory information out there and I just haven't gotten around to digesting it all yet, if you'll pardon the pun. I think I'll put this on my reading list.
NowWeAreAllTom 10 months ago
Thankyou Peter, this video made me happy- it is nice to see people making consious informed decisions about what they eat/consume. Also on the milk front I'm pretty sure you'll be fine - I used to love milk and drink masses of the stuff but strangley I haven't craved it since the first couple of months giving it up. Just make sure you try lots of new foods and find new foods you love as much.
afrohippieful 10 months ago
@afrohippieful Thanks.
thepeteris 10 months ago
I've always taken a liking to the Denis Leary line of thinking that eating meat is an instinct and not eating meat is a choice. But then, it's probably not good to base your dietary choices on what a stand-up comedian/actor has to say on the subject.
tiffismyname 10 months ago
the vegetarian myth by lierre keith.
fecklessman 10 months ago
Will you eat free range chicken eggs - what's your argument against that?
Also aren't you a huge milk drinker, now what are you going to do, just not drink it?
On the subject of animal pain, what about Koko?
watch?v=1oSySReObig&feature=related
taylahboone 10 months ago
@taylahboone In theory, free range milk/eggs/meat would be fine, but according to the book, those terms are nearly always empty marketing by the companies, and don't actually mean that the animal had any better of a life. Not to mention, I'm more concerned with the pollution and expense and whatnot, than the animals life anyway. To be sure, I'd have to buy directly from farmers, or do lots of research or something, which is probably more effort than it's worth.
Yes, I'm going to miss milk. A lot
thepeteris 10 months ago
YES! I get a little annoyed when vegetarians who say that they can't stand animal cruelty still eat animal byproducts. That still creates a demand for animals to be used and to suffer.
And there are too many people to feed. We have to efficiantly feed ourselves and that involves treating animals like a commodity. Also, I don't see how tasting an animal is really art. Yes, you do cook them in fancy ways, but in the end you still need to eat.
TopHatKitty 10 months ago
I'm a vegetarian, and I can tell you that I go out of my way to only consume animal products that leave the animal happy and safe!
As far as pescetarianism, fish don't actually feel 'pain'. Avoiding the consumption of fish on the basis of the pain that they feel is like avoiding eating vegetables for the same reasons.
I find people are against vegetarianism/veganism purely because it's 'different'. Most of my friends think it's strange what I do, and dislike the fact I do it. I don't get it!
MrFictive 10 months ago
The main reasoning I can think of in favour of eating meat is that biologically, humans are omnivores. While it is indeed possible to live healthily without meat, it is much easier to do so with the aid of meat. Humans have eaten meat since they evolved, and while we do eat too much of it nowadays, my view is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
WillsOdyssey 10 months ago
@WillsOdyssey One might argue that the massively inefficient and environmentally hazardous meat industry is very much "broken".
thepeteris 10 months ago 3
(Cont.)
--it REALLY bothers me when people care MORE about animals, then they do people.
--ALSO (haha, here I thought this was going to be short XD)
Ik I've told you before, I'm a Christian, and (idr WHERE the Bible says it exactly) I'm pretty sure that God put animals, or at least MOST of the animals, on earth for us to eat.... Idr any verses saying that animals are our equals XD.
*Hugs* <3
iLeaveYouWithHugs 10 months ago
(Cont.)
Have you ever heard someone say something along the lines of (Meaning, they have a really bad memory XD), "He/She is like a chicken, he/she wakes up in a new world everday." Ik that's not a FACT, but that kinda gets my point across (in a very very short way) I really don't feel TOO strongly about this, but I do feel pretty strongly about animals being cruely tortured for enjoyment/art/(w/e you want to call it). THAT is awful.
iLeaveYouWithHugs 10 months ago
-I agree (Especially w/ the end), but in some ways, I disagree w/ the beginning.
-I don't have a problem w/ eating animals (in general). Would I eat a dog? Absolutely not. Why not? I own three puppies. How is that different from eating a chicken? I think dogs have a little bit more of an understanding of what's going on around them then chickens do.
(Cont.)
iLeaveYouWithHugs 10 months ago
@iLeaveYouWithHugs How do you warrant killing (and before that; torturing) a creature with low intelligence, but not a creature with a high intelligence? What about cows, or sheep? Surely they'd have just as high an IQ as your average dog. And by your reasoning, should one be more justified in killing a mentally retarded man, than they are in killing an able bodied human? Just because a creature isn't as 'aware', doesn't mean it can't live a full and happy life!
MrFictive 10 months ago
While I sort of agree with you on the moral standpoint, I myself have no problem with eating meat, there is a logical argument of health.
The conditions in which factory farms raise their animals have created outbreaks of Ecoli simply because the very easy measures that can be taken to ensure that these animals lead healthy lives, and actually eat something their digestive systems was designed to eat. That being said, in doing this, we would be unintentionally having them lead "better" lives.
WeAreThePiano 10 months ago
i suggest you read primal blue print or refer to mark sisson's blog before becoming vegan. many arguments about human nutrition and about the ecological costs of eating meat are based on the industry as it stands- a means to subsidize farmers who raise grain products. its a different story if we're talking about pastured, free range animals who are not eating grains themselves.
blkfrhwk 10 months ago
@blkfrhwk I agree entirely. But the amount of meat available to me in the supermarket that is NOT from factory farms is almost negligible. The problem is, that with the amount of meat the market is currently demanding, the only way to supply it is through factory farms. To get back to traditional pasture based methods we'd have to drastically reduce our intake.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@thepeteris this may depend on where you live. we have a farmers market where we talk to the ranchers in person. it is a bit more expensive than meat in the grocery store, but then we are not eating any grains so it evens out. like every other decision we make as modern day americans, deciding on the best nutrition plan requires a lot of research and seeking out sources other than traditional supermarkets.
blkfrhwk 10 months ago
My brother became a vegan not too long ago, and his reasoning is that he believes that the concept is interesting, and without actually becoming one, it would be a thought that passes through his mind and he would forget about it. By becoming a vegan, it requires him to consider it before every meal or snack, making it necessary to ponder the topic more often and more thoroughly. I thought that was an interesting reason.
60DownTown 10 months ago
You construct a very good argument.
Can you write my essay for me!?
WatchingMatthew 10 months ago
@WatchingMatthew What's it on? I actually kind of liked writing essays. I might even slightly miss it.
thepeteris 10 months ago
I have a friend that just tells people she's vegetarian because she can't stomach steak or pork or most meats. She has no moral dilemma over the issue, she just prefers not to puke after every meal so she's vegetarian now. And I think I may become one of those people who are vegetarian for the sake of practicality, meat is really expensive.
OMGTHERERNONAMESAAGH 10 months ago
@OMGTHERERNONAMESAAGH Yeah, even before reading this book, I was already eating about 20% of the meat that used to eat when my parents bought my food, just because it's cheaper.
thepeteris 10 months ago
don't eat animals cause I can't kill them myself or view the slaughtering of the animals I would potentially eat, and I don't think anyone who can't do so, should. I've been to Albania and watched cows slaughtered on the street and have much more respect for that peoples' connection with their food, and also for hunters who eat what they kill themselves. also i eat free range eggs and organic whole milk sometimes,and yes brands are suspect sometimes, but i've been doing this a lot longer than u
kumarillo1 10 months ago
I think mistreating animals is morally wrong. I believe many higher functioning animals probably do have some form of consciousness, akin perhaps to new born babies. Eating them is OK with me as long as they are treated while alive and suffering is kept to a minimum when they are killed.
johnetie 10 months ago
@johnetie Then I'd recommend you read the book. Because according to the research he did, an almost negligible portion of the meat available for us to buy would fit your standards.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@thepeteris I don't need to read this book to know that. Information is everywhere. I'm a big hypocrite though being mostly unwilling to give up my lifestyle and such. I do forgo veal which seem especially egregious as animal raising practices go... oh, and foie gras.
johnetie 10 months ago
I will be rereading the next book with you. On the road is one of my favorites and it has been too long since my last time through it. BTW I'm a vegetarian based on the environmental issues on the topic.
ilobdell 10 months ago
@ilobdell Cool, I know absolutely nothing about it except for a few positive reviews such as your own, I'm looking forward to it.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@thepeteris I look forward to discussing it with you. When do you plan to have it done by?
ilobdell 10 months ago
@ilobdell I should upload a video it in the first week of May.
thepeteris 10 months ago
I agree with you on the point that we cannot accurately measure the consciousness of animals, but that it is safe to assume that it is lower than humans. I live on a farm with about 70 cattle, so I can say this from experience. Sometimes, a cow will forget it has given birth withing minutes and completely abandon its newborn child ( which is something that is actually going on right now, since we are in the middle of calving season). I cannot see any animal with such low capacity for motherhood
Throrindor 10 months ago
@Throrindor being able to consciously evalute any experience it has.
Not only this, but I am considering becoming vegetarian/vegan as well. Not for any moral reasons, of course, and instead simply practical ones, such as the cultivation of discipline (I really do enjoy meat) and the global economic/environment benefit of lowering my consumption of animal products and advocating the same to others.
Throrindor 10 months ago
Have you looked into the health problems associated with veganism? I heard they are legion, but those associated with vegetarianism are sparse.
SpeakMouthWords 10 months ago
Coming down out of the trees and standing up to see above the grass, freeing up our hands in the process, was a bad decision all around.
IwanttoliveinParis 10 months ago
Actually, there is one argument I can think of. That is for people with special conditions like anemia where being vegan would upset one's recommended extra iron intake. A friend of a friend apparently was on doctor's orders to eat red meat twice a week.
TheMinuteVlog 10 months ago
@TheMinuteVlog Would iron supplements not work? Or just...other foods high in iron? I won't deny that meat is a convenient source of many vitamins. But as far as I know, there isn't really anything vital that's exclusively found in meat. Correct me if I'm wrong.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@TheMinuteVlog I have a friend who was anemic and improved his condition hugely by eating high iron foods like grains, beans and pulses and dark green veggies. Actually, the majority of high iron foods are vegan, I'm not sure where this myth came from? Anyways, meat is certainly not the only source.
afrohippieful 10 months ago
I'm a vegetarian who always tries to eat cage-free eggs. I agree with the pain thing, but it still makes me feel very uncomfortable to think of torturing and destroying conscious beings.
I don't think there's an argument for eating animals in this day and age. Collecting things like eggs and milk isn't immoral, but it is in the way we do it with factory farms and whatnot.
Make sure you don't accidentally get something like chicken broth. It can make you sick after being veg a while.
TheMinuteVlog 10 months ago
@TheMinuteVlog If you can, try to research whatever brand you are buying and find out what exactly "cage free" means. Chances are, you won't be able to find out much. According to the book, the industry tries pretty hard to keep stuff secret. And there aren't any sort of regulations on terms like "cage free". It's likely that it's just empty marketing and doesn't actually mean the chickens have it any better off.
thepeteris 10 months ago
The thing is, that no matter which way you decide to swing, be it meat or vegetarian, today's way of life requires massive factories and massive farms with genetically modified crops for mass output because families and communities aren't raising their food and growing crops themselves. As far as health goes, it's bad business all around.
hidinginthecerealbox 10 months ago
Sometime in college, I decided that instead of going strictly vegetarian or vegan, that I would instead cut down on meat. Specifically red meat. Greasy foods upset my stomach anyway. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I change my diet, it's for me and not about the animals or what everyone else is doing.
elizziebooks 10 months ago
Humans don't really have the digestive system required for getting all the nutrients they require from a vegan diet (eg.Vit. B12). Humans are omnivorous. We can obtain it through supplements, but naturally we are supposed to eat both. The vegan diet is not environmentally perfect either, a lot of forests are burned down for farming. Also, think of the domestic fowl population now and if humans were herbivorous. They would have been extinct by now.
Having said that, I do eat very less meat.
LearningFeather 10 months ago
Just paused the video 33 seconds in and hit like because I'm vain. Plus you actually said that with a straight face and I salute you for it.
NowWeAreAllTom 10 months ago
@NowWeAreAllTom Ah, I had to watch the video to check what you were talking about. I had completely forgotten that I did that. I meant to annotate it too. I have done so now, I am glad you reminded me.
thepeteris 10 months ago
I dont know why exactly, but this video makes me very uncomfortable. I feel like it is wrong in some way, yet i cannot find that many of your arguments are invalid in any way, so feel i am forced to accept them. I suppose it exposes the contradictory nature of human kind, but I suppose i would rather be comforted by the lovely blanket of unthinking. I like animals and i dont want to hurt them yet I still see nothing wrong than eating them??? uuuuuuurrgh.
MonsterUnderYourB3d 10 months ago
@MonsterUnderYourB3d This was just a very small taste of what the book is like. I didn't even touch upon any of the gruesome details. And yeah, that's the thing. Most people at least have some idea that the meat industry isn't pretty. But we're content just to put it aside and not think about it. It's easier that way.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@thepeteris Death isn't pretty. But people think that going vegan is better than fighting to change the way animals husbandry now runs. Going vegan works at an individual level and can't do much good. Dr.Temple Grandin has worked on methods that make animal husbandry humane as well as more profitable. But I guess, people are just lazy. So are governments. It would take so much time to educate people in the meat industry! Let's just do nothing!
LearningFeather 10 months ago
@LearningFeather Not everyone has industry contacts and knowledge to be able to make changes as Temple is doing. But everyone knows how to buy groceries for themselves, and choosing to exclude meat and dairy is helping. It lessens the demand for meat. And when conversations are brought up about the change in diet, information will be passed and meat-eaters might see that they, too, want to change. So the masses lessening the demand, along with the few creating humane methods should do well.
MigdalaVered 10 months ago
@MigdalaVered But aren't the meat demands still increasing? Surely, the governments can put forth strict rules for factory farms.
LearningFeather 10 months ago
@LearningFeather know that government is not in the business of human or animal wellfare.
msezyrider 9 months ago
@msezyrider True!
LearningFeather 9 months ago
@MonsterUnderYourB3d This is the viewpoint of most of my meat-eating friends, when I talk about my vegetarianism. They find the moral conflict frustrating, and dislike it when I bring it up. xD
MrFictive 10 months ago
I definitely have an issue with killing a dog for pleasure or killing a dog that is not yours. However, if a group of people consume dogs for basic consumption.
Animals eat each other.. We are no exception. Although I agree with why vegens won't eat animals. I think people should only eat the meat that they forge for themselves (although I'm a huge hipocrit for saying this.) If you hunt it, you worked for it, you earned it, and there's a lot less suffering there.
ckXcore 10 months ago
@ckXcore Well obviously it's wrong if the dog isn't yours. But that's just a matter of theft/vandalism. Even though everyone eats beef today, we still know it'd be wrong to go out shooting cows on someone else's farm.
And yeah, the biggest problem is the factory farming methods. If animals were raised in natural environments on farms the way they were 100 years ago, that'd solve a lot of the problems. But that system produces much less meat, so we need to lessen our demand.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@thepeteris The oddity is, though, that there wasn't any less of a demand 100 years. And still, even by 1911, the industrial revolution had been in full swing for over a hundred years. It's around that time that our standards of living began to rapidly evolve into what they are today. Go back further than that, and the demand for meat was still probably the same. But like you say, the methods were different. That's because life was different.
hidinginthecerealbox 10 months ago
@hidinginthecerealbox You're saying demand hasn't gone up? I'm fairly certain it has. For one thing, the global population has doubled in the last 30 years alone. But on top of that, on a per-capita basis, people are eating more meat today than ever before. As standards of living have gone up, more people can afford it.
thepeteris 10 months ago
@thepeteris Ok, on a wide scale because of population increase, yes there is a higher demand. And as far as per-capita goes, single out those that could afford meat back then, and everyone that can afford meat today. Is there really that big of an increase in how much meat, or milk eggs etc, each individual eats?
hidinginthecerealbox 10 months ago
@hidinginthecerealbox According to the statistics in the book, yes. There has indeed been a huge increase.
thepeteris 10 months ago
This video is very eloquent. I have been thinking about this book lately too and was thinking about becoming vegetarian for the same reasons you're thinking of becoming vegan over the summer. Although vegan would be better, I drink a lot of milk and eat many dairy products. At least the smaller step of vegetarianism is starting somewhere and could allow me to learn how to be vegan without it feeling too difficult.
RileyAndCompany 10 months ago
@RileyAndCompany Totally agreed that some cutback is better than none. And yeah, eggs and dairy products are going to be the toughest part for me. I love milk SO much. I think I can quit though. I doubt I'll ever be completely dairy free though. With something like chocolate, it'd be real hard for me to say no just because of that tiny bit of milk.
thepeteris 10 months ago
It's all happenstance.....I'm sure there was a homo-sapien strolling along foraging when he came upon a half-eaten sabre-tooth chicken and ate it himself.....same for cooking meat.....very likely it was by accident that a unnoticed chunk of meat fell in the campfire and the caveman said "Dude.....mmmm tasty"
IwanttoliveinParis 10 months ago
I like that you brought up the fact that there is not argument FOR meat (except for taste and it being "natural") and that you're going to stop it for pure logical reasons. I know people who do it for moral reason, health reasons, environmental reasons, or, just because it is "gross". With the population going the way it is, we really need to start being smarter about our food choices. We don't worry about food enough, considering that it is something so vital to everything we do.
hellolover99 10 months ago
I have this book and was meaning to finish it to respond to this, but alas, I'm stuck in another one of your book club books (The Virgin Suicides).
I'm already a flexible vegetarian, and from the quarter I have read of Eating Animals, it did make me want to go vegan, for the moral reasons. I might still make a response arguing what really constitutes suffering.
hellolover99 10 months ago
woooo one of the first people to comment!
YASEgd 10 months ago