Tim Keller Answers Like an Arminian at the Veritas Forum

[HisSoc]

Not sure that advising Christians to 'immerse themselves in Dante and C S Lewis' is going to give the correct Biblical view of hell- not sure that the Bible teaches that people 'want to go to hell' but rather that they dont want God, His law , His Son or his rule and that will result in them going to hell- When the Lord Jesus separates the sheep from the goats it doesn't suggest that they want to go to hell but that they expect to go to heaven even though they never knew Him or obeyed Him.

[theschmidy]

I appreciate your concern for the topic of election. But I don't see how your commentary furthers the proclamation of the gospel. I hope that your concern for the advancement of the Kingdom of God will push you on to more pertinent vlog topics. Remember, Calvin or Arminius, everything belongs to you, and you belong to Christs and Christ belongs to God. Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. God bless you, brother.

[SorenArminius]

2 forced to wrestle with this issue and seek God's heart and draw nearer to Him, and ultimately, be ok with not being 100% no room for error. It's ok to be heavily in favour of one side, I think scripture can easily be read to support both, and throughout church history there have been faithful people on both sides, but to claim that someone can be 100% assured of one side and other's have no grounds I believe is fallacious and dishonouring to God's word. I sympathize with Keller in this regard.

[ThePristineFaith]

So, it's up for grabs whether one believes that God unconditionally chose to elect some and damn the rest? There are biblical grounds for believing that Christ died only for the elect? My friend, the early church would strongly disagree with your assertions. Read Irenaeus.

[SorenArminius]

@ThePristineFaith The early church, however, is not the deciding vote on how we read the bible. (I guess also depending what you mean by early) Don't get me wrong I have a firm decision on this topic, as you might be able to guess from my name, and I think it's right to try to come to conclusions about this, but unless you're saying Calvinism is heretical then in the next life, it will not matter which particular doctrine you held, all that will count is how we loved God and loved others.

[ThePristineFaith]

@SorenArminius I've never said that Calvinism is heretical. I simply believe it to be an unbiblical interpretation of the Scripture. And the Scripture's mandate to teachers is to contend for the faith and refute error. Yes, loving God and others is paramount. I hope I do not transgress this command through my videos.

[JeremyHuckins]

@ThePristineFaith Your comment, "I've never said that Calvinism is heretical." WHY NOT?! You go on to say that you, "...believe it to be an unbiblical interpretation of the scripture." Pull out the stops! This is some evil stuff. 

[SorenArminius]

1 Why does this seeming discrepancy in Keller's theology arise? For the very reason that these doctrines are a lively debate within mainstream evangelical Christianity, because there is biblical grounds for holding either position. If it were a clear cut, easily understood doctrine, devoid of all mystery, all mainstream Christian's would be on one side or the other and could speak with 100% consistency. As God has set it up, and I believe in his wisdom withholds all insight into his ways, we are

[razputin34]

He brought up Dante and CS Lewis. Has anyone read The Great Divorce? Ask James White if he supports the idea of Hell as CS Lewis viewed it.

[n8e6i2l]

5 point Calvinism doesn't assume the belief in double predestination, u seem to assume it does. Keller is answering a question about hell, the reformed view of predestination says that the elect are predestined to salvation, not that the others are predestined to hell, but that they go there naturally. if Keller dosnt believe in double predestination then what part of calvinism is he denying in this video?

[jgolackson]

These doctrines do not need to be understood or even believed before someone becomes a Christian. I don't think that Calvinists are being inconsistent in any way here. Do any Arminians in preaching the gospel warn people that they might lose their salvation down the road? Of course not! Do Arminians at times tailor their message to certain audiences. Of course! Lastly, I'd be careful comparing these audio clips in the way you have. Easy to make anyone sound inconsistent with that method. Peace!

[jgolackson]

@ThePristineFaith. I'm currently writing a paper on Particular Redemption and have recently read "Redemption Accomplished and Applied" by John Murray, J.I. Packer's introduction to John Owen's "Death of Death in the Death of Christ" and Charles Spurgeon's sermon "Particular Redemption." In all 3 of those they clearly advocate exactly what Keller is doing. The call to repent and believe the gospel does not need a full disclosure of election or the extent of the atonement...

[RomansGalatians]

Did Jesus rise physically?

Well, instead of answering that question, I will expound on predestination.

Huh?

If the question is asked, you point out that Jesus ate fish on the shore, that Thomas felt his physical body, etc. You wouldn't go into predestination.

You think it would be a "failure to disclose" because a Christian doesn't talk about issues of predestination 24/7?

The question asked dealt with the justice of Hell; Keller had no reason to delve into predestination.

[RomansGalatians]

You think his answer is Arminian? You just don't understand Calvinism. That is because you stop at a surface level.

The question in Calvinism is not whether or not a man "wants" or whether or not he has a will. The question is WHY does he want what he wants, and WHY does he choose what he chooses.

"Failure to disclose?" Why delve into deeper matters with beginner babes. His answer was sufficient and correct. One must first understand a beginning precept before understanding the next step.

[ThePristineFaith]

@RomansGalatians I understand Calvinism just fine. What Keller should have propounded is that the ULTIMATE CHOICE concerning who can even WANT TO follow God is GOD HIMSELF. So, it's really not even up to the individual whether they WANT TO spend eternity in Hell. If that's God DESIRE for them, then that's how they'll ULTIMATELY end up, no?

[RomansGalatians]

@ThePristineFaith Sometimes asking a question is done because 1) the person genuinely desires to know God better. Other times, it is done 2) to accuse God, or question His decisions. There is no fault in the #1, but #2 is a sin.

I don't know why God does what He does, and it is not mine to question Him. I know two Bible truths: 1)man cannot change his own heart, and cannot resist sin & 2) Hell is real, and sinners are responsible for their sin.

For man to question God about this is DOUBT.

[RomansGalatians]

@ThePristineFaith And how does this short clip show that Keller DIDN'T talk about predestination elsewhere in his speech?

[ray7685]

@ThePristineFaith Yes, you do understand Calvinism just fine. But the Calvist view of salvation doesn't hold water unless a little Scripture gymnastics takes place.God cannot judge a person for not knowing Christ if God is the one who predetermines him to not know Christ. A person chooses to believe in Christ and is called "elect" because Christ is the elect of God. In other words, we are "elect" because He is the

[ray7685]

@ThePristineFaith Yes, you do understand Calvinism just fine. But I don't see the Calvinist view of salvation holding water unless a little Bible gymnastics (manipulation) takes place. God cannot judge a person for not knowing Christ if God is the one who predetermines him to not know Christ. A person chooses to believe in Christ and is called "elect" because Christ is the elect of God. In other words, we are "elect" because Jesus is the elect.

[mightymergz]

Keller was talking to unbelievers in clip 1 and its not really necessary to get into specific mechanisms of salvation as beliefs on that subject are secondary.

His answers are consistent as calvinists are the first to affirm that there is free will. People do what they want to.

It would be hard to explain calvinistic soteriology in a minute response to people who are hearing the gospel for the first time :P

I appreciate your video, it was well thought out.

[chilliard81]

Both answers work in harmony. Keller said that men choose not to submit to God and thus are in hell for not repenting of sin. In the 2nd clip, Keller affirms this teaching by saying that ALL men would continually reject God and end up in hell, UNLESS God chooses to open the eyes of some men. So all men do willingly choose hell, where it not for the divine working of God to open hearts to the gospel. There is not a person that wants to be saved that God says no to, that very desire is from God.

[a5dr3]

Keller often annoys me with his lightfootedness on the sovereignty issue but I've been around him long enough to know that ultimately he is just being very careful to construct his message to contemporary urban mindsets. In my opinion, in his sermons over the years devoted to this "problem" he always hits the bullseye. The Bible says that God ordains mans free choices and our ignorance of exactly how he does this does not imply a logical contradiction.

[JasonMusso]

I think that Keller does a good job in holding both the human choice and God's choice. Tim is not a textbook Presbyterian - this is true. But, Tim is closer to acknowledging the difficult biblical disclosure of both human and divine sovereignties. I think Tim will eventually split from the PCA because of his position on human freedom, but I consider this to be a wise move from a man who does not allow confessional statements to dictate his own development in the doctrines of God and man.

[AlternateArts]

J.I Packer may have said it best, "... which concerns us here is the apparent opposition between divine sovereignty and human responsibility, or (putting it more biblically) between what God does as King and what he does as Judge. Scripture teaches us that, as King, He orders and controls all things, human actions among them, in accordance with His own eternal purpose. Scripture also teaches that, as Judge, He holds every man responsible for the choices he makes and the courses he pursues."

[a5dr3]

@AlternateArts - That's a great quote. Bahnsen knocks it out of the park in three short articles on CMF Now's website. It's pt130, 131 and 132.

[mikeisi]

I'm not sure how this shows a 'high regard for arminianism"...it's simply showing Keller's belief about the nature of one's heart who is in Hell. He still clearly would argue that God alone ultimately is the one who shapes that person's heart, thus electing who is to be saved by sovereign grace and who is not. God shaped Pharaoh's heart for his own ultimate will...but does that mean one can't discuss and dissect Pharaoh's heart on the human level as being willfully against God?

-michael

[ABrotherBattle]

This is typical of many Calvinist whom I know. Some openly teach in class that we are to "preach like Arminus but believe like Calvin."

[AmericanWayne]

Great video!

[ThePristineFaith]

@AmericanWayne Thank you.